What kind of gas mileage do you get?

[AtomSmasher]

One minor comment.

If your business is so close to the edge that being late for a single customer could put you under, could it possibly be because your expenses are so high?

My business expenses are next to nothing, and as I said, the $200/month to pay for the car will not make or break a business.  Besides, my last car was a gas guzzler, so I know if I bought an old gas guzzler for really cheap, I would have to spend $100-$150 more on gas each month, which means I'm actually only paying $50-100 more a month then buying an old gas guzzler, and thats not including the $500 or whatever a year for repairs.

Also, Missing a single appointment will not put me under on its own, but if a client gets upset and decides to use someone else who always makes the appointments, then I lose all of the business I would of gotten from them, and that most likely would put me under.  Work is slow for everyone in my field right now and theres no shortage of competition, so keeping my clients happy is my #1 goal.

[Ed_McCarron]

TransAm - hehe, used to have a Bandit edition, but this is a newer model. I get 25 mpg highway, and 10 mpg when I stomp on it. So... about 10 mpg...

 

I just gave my old '79 Trans-Am to the mechanic that works on my cars.  It was a 6.6L, think it got about 6 gallons per mile.

My 96 explorer averages 18 hwy, my wifes 03 Escape averages 22 hwy.

[Wade]

This will probably have to be my last post on this subject, because I don't have time to write a dissertation on the false economies of driving old cars.

I agree that buying a new car just to save gas mileage is pretty narrow-minded, but if someone is going to buy a new car, they should seriously consider getting one that gets excellent mileage.

Driving a beater is acceptable for a teenage boy, even a student or young person with very little responsibilities and a a job that isn't demanding, and nothing better to do than spend a weekend working on a broken down car.  If someone can't afford a new car or can't get credit, then perhaps they have no choice but to drive an old car.  That doesn't mean they should keep driving old cars if they had a little more money/credit.

But for most of the working population, a dependable car is a must. Bad scenarios we want to avoid:

1) Broken down in the rain or snow
2) Broken down with children/infants in the car
3) Broken down with an important work meeting being missed/delayed
4) Broken down in bad part of town
5) Broken down and missing/being late for a job interview
6) Broken down and missing a class test
7) Broken down, and spending a whole weekend (+$$$ parts cost) working on the car
8 ) Broken down, missing a full day of work to deal with getting the car towed, getting to the shop, etc.

If I missed (or was late for) a job interview, that would likely cost me the job.  That could be worth $25k+/yr.  Not worth gambling to try to save $1000/yr, and risk a problem like that.

In the past 5 years, I've been stranded 3 times at VERY bad times off the top of my head.  Now I have a baby, and that makes undesirable situations even more important to avoid.

Wade, the sheer fact that you are discussing a monthly payment as is that was an important number shows me that you really don't have a handle on automotive costs. And for the record, ALL cars need maintenance.

I have a pretty good handle on automotive costs.  And older cars require significantly more cost to keep them running.

I've driven a lot of older cars, and after years of hidden costs and unexpected work/life interruptions, I've come to realize that a few thousand dollars a year is WELL worth removing that wasted time/effort/worry from my life.

Monthly payment *is* an important number.  When a payment is < $200/month, it isn't too difficult for a used car to meet or exceed that cost.  Then the argument for driving beater cars really holds no water at all, since the ONLY positive argument for old cars is they "can" cost less.

I have been driving about 16 years, 12 of those years I drove sub $2000 clunkers. My TOTAL in repair bills from 1993 to 2007 is LESS than the $2400 you'd make in payments on that hybrid in one year, and that was if you somehow got a $22000 hybrid with $500 down for 5 years down to $200 a month, my loan calculator says that would be $428 a month. Since I am assuming that is impossible I will start talking about a new standard civic instead.

Lucky you, having less than $2400 in repairs in 14 years of driving beaters.  You're HIGHLY unusual in that respect.  I spent more than that in just a couple of years of driving old cars.  I've spent enough money over the course of driving a lot of old cars for about 10 years, that I could have bought a brand new car.

I don't have a $22k hybrid, I bought a 2008 4-door Yaris with a sticker of $14.5k.  Happily gave them my 98 Camry beater in trade and took a loan for the $10k.  I would say that just about anyone with some motivation or a trade could get the same price, or near it.

My only regret is not buying it sooner!

10,000 miles per year on a V8 getting 18 MPG at $3.50 a gallon costs a person $1944 a year.
10,000 miles a year on a standard 2008 Honda civic (29 mpg, which is really pitiful if you ask me) at $3.50 a gallon costs $1206 a year.
So in theory you save yourself $744 a year here, oh wait, how much extra is that full coverage insurance on that car you are financing? Better add in $500 extra a year for that.

1) Most V8's are getting far worse than 18 MPG in mixed/city.  Especially older cars.
2) Full coverage insurance on my Yaris (versus liability only before) caused my insurance to go up only $200/year. If I had full coverage on my previous car the cost difference would be significantly less than the $200, obviously.

Now you are saving $244 a year. Ooh, what about property taxes on that brand new car, there goes an amount of money that is going to vary from $0 in some places up to about $900. We will assume your rates are on the lower end and merely eat up that $244.

Property tax was required on every vehicle I've owned, new or used.  Given the value of this car, I'd expect it to rise by no more than $200.

Wow, now you have broken even.
Wait, there is more, there is about $1200 in sales tax to pay on that car. We will split that over 5 years to be nice. $240 cost per year.

Sales tax was included in the purchase price and $10k financed.

Wait, there is more, to the tune of $600 a year in interest (averaged over 5 years and assuming you have good credit).

Interest is included in the < $200/month payment.

The argument to drive an old car to save money doesn't hold water... unless the person has particularly bad luck with new cars and superb luck with old cars, doesn't value his time at all, likes to work on cars, doesn't mind being stranded in bad weather/bad neighborhood/with work attire, has a job where absense is expected, has no family obligations or other responsibilities, doesn't attend school, and has no aspirations for getting a better job.

Wade

[Wade]

If you figure that car will likely need virtually no work or maintenance for the first 8-10 years, it's even cheaper to own. 

 

Paige is absolutely right on this one. The total cost of ownership will be lowest for a junker, even a gas-guzzling junker.

That's not saying that buying the Civic, Prius or any other new car is bad or wrong. You just have to realize that you're trading off a higher total cost of ownership against the greater reliability, features, comfort, "smug", and chick-attractiveness factor of the new car.

Practically everyone I know drives new cars for 5-7 years, and in that period, it's rare that any work needs to be done aside from oil changes and a set of tires.  If you think an 8 year old car will require less work over the same 5-10 year period versus the new car, you're fooling yourself (and only yourself).

Wade

[Wade]

Insurance matters because no one with two brain cells to rub together has full coverage insurance on a car worth less than 5 or 6 grand. The comprehensive and collision doubles your insurance rates at a bare minimum.

Full coverage doesn't always cost a lot more.  We went from 3 liability only vehicles to 1 liability only vehicle and 2 NEW vehicles, both with full coverage, and it only costs about $35/month more.  In fact, I've been considering picking full coverage back up on the RX-7, just for peace of mind.


Insurance for my wife and I together:

LIABILITY ONLY: 98 Camry, 90 Olds cutlass, 94 RX-7:
$900/yr

LIABILITY ONLY: 98 Camry, 94 RX-7
FULL COVERAGE: : 07 Odyssey
$1100/yr

LIABILITY ONLY: 94 RX-7
FULL COVERAGE: : 07 Odyssey, 08 Yaris
$1300/yr

Wade

[patrickl]

Good posts Wade

[paigeoliver]

Wade, my calculations at no point includes the substantial purchase price of the vehicle, therefor the interest and sales tax do indeed count. I was ONLY keeping track of the additional premium it costs a person to drive a new car. Toss that purchase price into the mix and it gets far worse.


Also, here are some solutions.

1) Broken down in the rain or snow

Call a taxi.

2) Broken down with children/infants in the car

Call a taxi, you are going to be far more stressed about this than the kids will be. They will probably be excited to ride the taxi. Contrary to popular wisdom children do not die or explode when cars break down and they can get wet without melting. You could send those kids to college with the money you save trying to insure they don't spend 20 minutes delayed in a breakdown.


3) Broken down with an important work meeting being missed/delayed.

Call a taxi. I know from experience people delay "important" work and business meetings all the time for things far more mundane than an auto breakdown.


4) Broken down in bad part of town

Call a taxi, and consider avoiding the bad part of town. Also, I'd rather be in a hoopty in the bad part of town than something nice that will get stolen.

5) Broken down and missing/being late for a job interview

Call a taxi.

6) Broken down and missing a class test

Call a taxi.

7) Broken down, and spending a whole weekend (+$$$ parts cost) working on the car.

How you do repairs is up to you, you can have the shop do everything or do it yourself and save more money, it is up to you.


8 ) Broken down, missing a full day of work to deal with getting the car towed, getting to the shop, etc.

Call a taxi, arrange everything else later. I don't know about you, but I still go to work when I have an automotive problem.


The vast majority of the above 8 mentioned are based on delays, which are far more likely from traffic jams and general lateness than they are from auto breakdowns. And the vast majority of auto breakdowns go a whole lot smoother if you just CALL a TAXI to get yourself to your destination right away and then come back and deal with the problem later. Waiting for your uncle Denny to crawl out of bed, get dressed and drive over from Ballwin to come pick you up isn't the way to deal with it, even though it feels cheaper and that is what most people seem to do.

When it all comes down to it a whole lot of people can't even handle their finances well enough to have enough money on hand to pay for a taxi, tow, and repair. They just live paycheck to paycheck regardless of income or expense and have an emergency every single time they have an extra expense. Thus they will spend $6000 extra a year to drive new, ignoring the fact that it is almost impossible to rack up $6000 a year in repairs year after year.

[patrickl]

Thus they will spend $6000 extra a year to drive new, ignoring the fact that it is almost impossible to rack up $6000 a year in repairs year after year.

$6000 a year extra? Either they need to be buying a new car every year or they are driving something seriously expensive. Either way it's not an applicable example.

If someone drives a $12,000 car the depreciation would be about half of the original price over 4 or 5 years. So the cost would be $6,000 over the full period. It's pretty easy to rack up a $1,500 repair bill on an old junker every year. Or even worse, end up with a lemon that breaks down completely (or has a higher repair bill than it's value) in a year or two.

Again, the only way this comes out even reasonably favorably is if you get your repairs practically for free and if you don't account for your own time that you need to put in to keep the junker driving.

Even then, the difference will be at best $50 to $100 a month. Are you seriously claiming that an extra payment of $50 to $100 a month isn't worth much better reliability, hugely improved safety, a much better driving experience and several days a year that you are free (because you don't have to work on a broken down car or that you need to take days of off work because your car died)?

[Wade]

Wade, my calculations at no point includes the substantial purchase price of the vehicle, therefor the interest and sales tax do indeed count. I was ONLY keeping track of the additional premium it costs a person to drive a new car. Toss that purchase price into the mix and it gets far worse.

There is no interest or sales tax without the purchase price, so you are including the purchase price into the calcs whether you think so or not.

Also, here are some solutions.
...
Call a taxi for every situation...

1) I don't have a cell phone, they don't work in a lot of areas around here anyway, and a pay phone might not be nearby (especially so, these days).  How do you propose calling that taxi?  Yelling loudly?  So figure an extra $50/month for the cell phone used to bail out the person who drives the old car.

2) Taxis can take far too long to show up

3) Taxis are quite expensive around here.  If I'm not right in town or nearby home when the breakdown happens (which was the case for all 3 of my recent breakdowns), the taxi alone would be $50-150.  Towing/trailering the dead car would have been several hundred.

...
Call a taxi, you are going to be far more stressed about this than the kids will be. They will probably be excited to ride the taxi. Contrary to popular wisdom children do not die or explode when cars break down and they can get wet without melting. You could send those kids to college with the money you save trying to insure they don't spend 20 minutes delayed in a breakdown.

Until you have children and other responsibilities, I can rightfully dismiss any of your opinions about how to treat them.

Not only is it unsafe, it is illegal to take children in a car without a proper car seat.  While most car seats can be moved pretty easily, the Taxi might not have the needed belts or tie hooks.  If the weather is bad, I sure as hell don't want to risk getting a child sick, just to save $50-100/month driving the used car.

3) Broken down with an important work meeting being missed/delayed.

Call a taxi. I know from experience people delay "important" work and business meetings all the time for things far more mundane than an auto breakdown.

Just because there are people with "important" work they blow off, (like driving an old car) it doesn't mean it's a good idea and won't hurt their career.  Again, what about the job interview that would result in $25k/year more?  I work at a hospital, which is loaded with people who have jobs where people's lives rest in their hands.  Many of these people need to be available reliably.

4) Broken down in bad part of town

Call a taxi, and consider avoiding the bad part of town. Also, I'd rather be in a hoopty in the bad part of town than something nice that will get stolen.

You'd rather drive through a bad part of town in a less reliable vehicle?  Makes no sense.

7) Broken down, and spending a whole weekend (+$$$ parts cost) working on the car.

How you do repairs is up to you, you can have the shop do everything or do it yourself and save more money, it is up to you.

If a person is going to stand a chance at making an old car more cost effective than a new car, he's going to have to work on it himself or have someone else work on it very cheaply.

8 ) Broken down, missing a full day of work to deal with getting the car towed, getting to the shop, etc.
Call a taxi, arrange everything else later. I don't know about you, but I still go to work when I have an automotive problem.

That depends on where and how the car broke down.  Leaving a broken down car overnight will result it it being towed to a yard many miles away, where they have the right to keep the vehicle unless you pay their ridiculous tow bill.  (My brother was taken on this ride once when his car broke down).  It could be unsafe to leave a car in a certain spot, not only for other drivers but to avoid damage to your own car.

The vast majority of the above 8 mentioned are based on delays, which are far more likely from traffic jams and

Goes back to whether your time is worth anything or not.  A delay or missed day of work is worth $300-500 to a lot of people.

general lateness than they are from auto breakdowns. And the vast majority of auto breakdowns go a whole lot smoother if you just CALL a TAXI to get yourself to your destination right away and then come back and deal with the problem later. Waiting for your uncle Denny to crawl out of bed, get dressed and drive over from Ballwin to come pick you up isn't the way to deal with it, even though it feels cheaper and that is what most people seem to do.

You seem to have "handling a breakdown" down to a science.  How did you get so good at that?

When it all comes down to it a whole lot of people can't even handle their finances well enough to have enough money on hand to pay for a taxi, tow, and repair. They just live paycheck to paycheck regardless of income or expense and have an emergency every single time they have an extra expense. Thus they will spend $6000 extra a year to drive new, ignoring the fact that it is almost impossible to rack up $6000 a year in repairs year after year.

You're right, a lot of people can't handle their finances, and driving a beater is IMO one of the sure ways to become one of those people.

Your $6000/yr figure is WAY off.

Wade

[paigeoliver]

I must wonder what sort of new car you are buying for $12000? A low end Hyundai? If that is the case a new one is $12000 and the dealer will give you $2500 for your 5 year old one.

Just about every financial pundit out there recommends buying new cars, and plenty of them suggest buying them at an age of 8 years old or more.

Also, when you buy very used you aren't stuck with the base model. If I need a car and have $3000 I COULD put it towards the cheapest flimsobox compact out there and be paying for it for the next 5 years. I could buy a 5 year old example of that same flimsobox and own it outright. I could take advantage of the fact that american cars are the biggest bargains on the used market and buy a very nice 5 year old Taurus. Or I could go a bit extreme and spend $1000 (done it multiple times) and put the other $2000 in the bank.

I am a very big fan of cars in the 15-20 age range because they have depreciated to being nearly worthless, yet you can find some in really fantastic condition with low mileage for almost no money. And the repair costs for those models is usually quite low (lots of parts suppliers competing drives the prices down).

And cars in that age range no longer depreciate due to age, in fact you can often drive them for years and put a bunch of miles on them and then sell them for the same thing you paid for them, sometimes more (if the model has a following a well kept example will appreciate slightly over time, not investment grade money, but it is money).

Thus they will spend $6000 extra a year to drive new, ignoring the fact that it is almost impossible to rack up $6000 a year in repairs year after year.

$6000 a year extra? Either they need to be buying a new car every year or they are driving something seriously expensive. Either way it's not an applicable example.

If someone drives a $12,000 car the depreciation would be about half of the original price over 4 or 5 years. So the cost would be $6,000 over the full period. It's pretty easy to rack up a $1,500 repair bill on an old junker every year. Or even worse, end up with a lemon that breaks down completely (or has a higher repair bill than it's value) in a year or two.

Again, the only way this comes out even reasonably favorably is if you get your repairs practically for free and if you don't account for your own time that you need to put in to keep the junker driving.

Even then, the difference will be at best $50 to $100 a month. Are you seriously claiming that an extra payment of $50 to $100 a month isn't worth much better reliability, hugely improved safety, a much better driving experience and several days a year that you are free (because you don't have to work on a broken down car or that you need to take days of off work because your car died)?

[Wade]

Thus they will spend $6000 extra a year to drive new, ignoring the fact that it is almost impossible to rack up $6000 a year in repairs year after year.

$6000 a year extra? Either they need to be buying a new car every year or they are driving something seriously expensive. Either way it's not an applicable example.

If someone drives a $12,000 car the depreciation would be about half of the original price over 4 or 5 years. So the cost would be $6,000 over the full period. It's pretty easy to rack up a $1,500 repair bill on an old junker every year. Or even worse, end up with a lemon that breaks down completely (or has a higher repair bill than it's value) in a year or two.

Again, the only way this comes out even reasonably favorably is if you get your repairs practically for free and if you don't account for your own time that you need to put in to keep the junker driving.

Even then, the difference will be at best $50 to $100 a month. Are you seriously claiming that an extra payment of $50 to $100 a month isn't worth much better reliability, hugely improved safety, a much better driving experience and several days a year that you are free (because you don't have to work on a broken down car or that you need to take days of off work because your car died)?

I strongly agree with the above.

Paige thinks it's worthwhile for a person to put his job, career path, reputation, family, children, safety, convenience, education, and finances at risk, in order to save perhaps $100/month.  That makes no sense whatsoever to me, but to him, it apparently makes sense and is perfectly justified.  To a person who has few of those things, I can see how the need for a dependable vehicle is less important, but to think everyone is in that same boat is pretty, well... foolish.

Some people can't see a good decision when it's right in front of them.  That's a problem that plagues a lot of people, and explains why they can never seem to get anywhere.

Typical example is people who think going to college is a waste of time, and that they will do just as well without a degree. (If someone wants to argue about that, please start a new thread.)

Wade

[Wade]

I must wonder what sort of new car you are buying for $12000? A low end Hyundai? If that is the case a new one is $12000 and the dealer will give you $2500 for your 5 year old one.

Have you even looked at new cars?  There's a gob of choices in the $10000-15000 sticker price, which can usually be talked down several thousand.  Toyota alone has 2 Yaris models, the Corolla (loaded, for $14.5k before negotiation), plus all those Scion models.  Hyundai, Kia, Suzuki, Daewoo have a bunch of cars in that price range as well.  Honda has a couple, I'm sure many of the domestic brands have many too (I've seen ads recently for Ford Focus for $11k new, before negotiation, Chevy Aveo for $10k, Cobalts for $12k).

Wade

[paigeoliver]

Wade, children can ride in taxis and other public transportation without car seats, and it is not particularly unsafe. Different rules apply to vehicles for hire than for private vehicles. They are safer in the back of that full sized steel taxi without a car seat than they are in an econobox with one. Nobody even had child seats a few decades ago, and we all somehow made it. Ever notice the school buses your kids ride on? They don't even have seat belts.

My prepaid cell phone costs me about $8 a month. Last time I called someone because I was broken down on the side of the road? Never, because the last time it happened was in 1998, and that was before cell phones were so universal.

A $50 taxi could indeed be pricey, last time I had to call one because I was broken down on the side of the road? Never. Last time I called a taxi at all? 1996 when i was in the army and my car wasn't in the same city as me.

Also, if you wade through those german ADAC breakdown statistics you will find that even pretty old cars only suffer about 50-80 annual roadside breakdowns per THOUSAND vehicles. That means YEARS between those incidents, which has certainly been my experience.

[paigeoliver]

It isn't a $100 a month difference, you are simply telling yourself it is a $100 a month difference. If it was actually just a $100 a month difference then everyone on earth would buy brand new cars, drive them 5 years and then dumpster them. I'd drive a new car too if the difference was $1200 a year (still note, that talking in terms of monthly payments shows a lack of wisdom in the areas of finance, it isn't what the item costs you per month, it is what the item costs you).

I do admit that I am not totally up on current pricing, only new car I priced recently was the new Rabbit, I saw the price but thought the car was dog ugly.

I do find it amusing that not purchasing a new car shows that the person makes bad decisions and will never get anywhere in life. I find that quite amusing indeed.

This has gotten far off the original topic of fuel economy though, and that is partially my fault. I can't convince anyone of anything when their position is based on fear, so I am really going to try to be finished with this thread.

[Wade]

Wade, children can ride in taxis and other public transportation without car seats, and it is not particularly unsafe. Different rules apply to vehicles for hire than for private vehicles. They are safer in the back of that full sized steel taxi without a car seat than they are in an econobox with one. Nobody even had child seats a few decades ago, and we all somehow made it. Ever notice the school buses your kids ride on? They don't even have seat belts.

That's a completely ridiculous statement.  What planet are you from? Do you think child seats are required by law for an economic reason?  Just so "the man" can force people to buy car seats and spur the economy?  There is little debate about the safety improvements from car seats, maybe some debate about which types are most effective.  Cars didn't have ABS or airbags 30 years ago either, so do you think those items are useless and don't add safety?  Cars didn't use to have seat belts or tempered glass.  Now those are standard for a reason, heck even airbags are required in the front of new vehicles now, and will probably be required in the sides within a few years.

Our school buses have seatbelts and video cameras.  A bus also is far massive than a regular vehicle, and the belts are not as important.

My prepaid cell phone costs me about $8 a month.

The most reasonable number you've posted in a while.  True, I could get a prepaid cell phone and only use it for breakdowns, and it wouldn't cost much (in phone charges).

Wade

[Wade]

It isn't a $100 a month difference, you are simply telling yourself it is a $100 a month difference. If it was actually just a $100 a month difference then everyone on earth would buy brand new cars, drive them 5 years and then dumpster them.

It really is closer to $100/month, even if reliability is unimportant to you or your time is worthless (which it isn't, for most of us).

Plain and simple... new $12k car, driven for 5 years... still has about half the value left after that 5 years... so it cost around $6k for 5 years.  That's about $1200/yr compared to someone buying the SAME car, 5 years old for 6k.  The difference is the person who bought the car new got the BEST years out of the car, for about $100/month.  The person buying it used is only getting the bad end of the deal, as the maintenance costs will be far higher than those first 5 years.  I've already shown that the insurance difference is extremely small.  Tires and oil will be constant, or will be worse for the worn, older car.  How can you not see the economy in this?

I've spent more than $100/month in maintenance/repairs on my old cars for many years.  I was tired of messing with it and not saving any money.

Some people can't spare $100/month, have bad credit, or don't realize the cost difference is so small.  That is why people buy beaters.

I'd drive a new car too if the difference was $1200 a year (still note, that talking in terms of monthly payments shows a lack of wisdom in the areas of finance, it isn't what the item costs you per month, it is what the item costs you).

Quite the contrary.  It's the return that matters.  Sometimes paying interest or payments is the smart financial move.  My time and money is better spent on things other than missed work and missed meetings, and repairs on old cars.  What are your financial credentials?  You can back up your expertise with a huge portfolio, I suppose?

I do admit that I am not totally up on current pricing, only new car I priced recently was the new Rabbit, I saw the price but thought the car was dog ugly.

I do find it amusing that not purchasing a new car shows that the person makes bad decisions and will never get anywhere in life. I find that quite amusing indeed.

Not buying a new car doesn't put someone in that category.  But many people consistently make bad decisions.  Quite often, those are the people who don't have the option to buy a new car.

This has gotten far off the original topic of fuel economy though, and that is partially my fault. I can't convince anyone of anything when their position is based on fear, so I am really going to try to be finished with this thread.

For me personally, it's based less on fear, and more on common sense.

Wade

[Jdurg]

Hell, if I had to live in a big city such as NY or Chicago, I wouldn't even own a car!  (And with where work takes me, I may wind up living in the city).  I would love to be able to survive without a car at all.  Then gas prices wouldn't bother me in the slightest.  Sadly, here in SE Connecticut, you can't survive without a car so I just have to make do with what I have.

[danny_galaga]

You're right, a lot of people can't handle their finances, and driving a beater is IMO one of the sure ways to become one of those people.

that is a ridiculous statement and i find it offensive. i personally find that many people who aren't good with their finances are that way because they are paying too much for a loan- a loan for a new car. it's just transport people. except for the thing about the baby seats, i'm absolutely with paige. all i'm saying is that it is a lot cheaper to own a secondhand car, if you have some sense about you when buying and know how to drive (for instance, not start it in gear and instantly drive off. that is a lot of wear to the engine). maybe dont redline it through every gear. check the oil and water more than once a year. i think paige said it, but i'll repeat it- if there was actually little difference between owning a new car and an old, who would buy old cars?

paiges muffin break analogy is brilliant, and if you answer honestly would sort out whether you really need a new car for financial reasons. who wouldn't put up with a random delaying 1 hour phone call if you were given $4000 for it?

there are many reasons to buy a new car- prestige, hobby, safety, business, relief from stress because you freak out if your car breaks down more than once a year. but almost never could you honestly say its because it is cheaper than an old car. how the hell could you possibly be financially better off?

[patrickl]

if there was actually little difference between owning a new car and an old, who would buy old cars?

For instance because:
- $100 a month is still a lot for some people
- they don't really need the car anyway so it doesn't matter if it breaks down now and then
- they don't really drive the car (obviously if you don't drive it, on the total budget, having a new car becomes a hell of a lot more expensive than an old car)
- they don't have the money to buy a new car and cannot borrow the money for it either
- they don't do the math and only look at the depreciation and don't see that the extra cost in maintenance
- they don't realize that their old car actually costs as much as it does whereas. for a new car the monthly costs are known upfront
- they can fix their car themselves with scrapyard parts and don't account for the work they have to put in themselves
- they are new (or bad) drivers and the insurance premiums would be huge on a new car

The fact that you "beater guys" are so shocked that the difference is only $100 really means you never took the time to look at your driving budget.

Depreciation on the $12,000 car is? On average $125 a month. Now is it that unlikely that, on an old junker, you have at least an extra $300 a year in repair bills per year? Try to look at averages too. That $1000 bill in one year averages to $250 over 4 years already. Besides an old beater has depreciation too, buy it at $2000 and you get $50 back from the scrapheap after 4 years, so you lose $40 a month there too.

On a $12,500 new car you will have at best a $50 a month price advantage by driving an old junker and I seriously doubt it's even that much. On a $16000 car it's going to be something like $100 at best.

Seriously, do the math. Put your depreciation, the insurance, the gas bill, taxes, interests and all the costs (taxi bills, tow bills) that you can think off and you will find that you spend a whole lot more than you thought you did. You are really not going to save more than 30% of your budget by driving an old junker (or pay 40% more if you drive new instead of a junker).

It's just a crapshoot too. The old junker might break down soon after you buy it. In college and the university I had plenty of friends with cars that broke down and they couldn't afford the bill or the car simply wasn't worth it anymore. My brother bought a $2000 junker and after a year the engine died. That's a higher depreciation than on a new car. I was reasonably lucky with my old junkers, but I still spend a lot of money keeping them running and spend way to much time by the roadside or with the bonnet open trying to coerce the car into starting or to continue running.

there are many reasons to buy a new car- prestige, hobby, safety, business, relief from stress because you freak out if your car breaks down more than once a year. but almost never could you honestly say its because it is cheaper than an old car. how the hell could you possibly be financially better off?

Are you even reading what Wade and I say? No one has said that a new car is cheaper. Only that the premium is rather small to have all the advantages that a new car gives.

The best cheap alternative is a young second hand car (4 to 5 years old). Still in pretty good shape and at practically the same cost as an old junker. You save some money on the depreciation and you don't lose so much on the maintenance as on an old junker. Of course this again only works if you are able to fork over $6000 to $8000 for a car and if you really drive the car a lot. Or something in between is to drive the new car for 10 years.

BTW try to think of the following conditions too:
- the car actually gets driven
- people who drive new are not going to be willing or able to repair their own car
- people with kids really have to minimize breakdowns (if I have to pick my kid up from school I really cannot use the car breaking down)
- self employed people or the ones with a job, lose money or free days (which equals money) when their car breaks down. My hourly wage is higher than the price difference on driving an old car

Also, if you wade through those german ADAC breakdown statistics you will find that even pretty old cars only suffer about 50-80 annual roadside breakdowns per THOUSAND vehicles.

That's for 5 year old cars. Not for old beaters.

[danny_galaga]

none of that changes my simple assertion that a second hand car is a LOT less expensive than a new car, even considering ALL possible running costs for both (i am not shocked the difference is $100/month because i assert that simply isnt normally the case).

 we may be arguing at cross-purposes here. i conceed that i dont know what the costs are for older cars in holland. it could very well be like in japan where i have heard that as the car gets older (past 5 years? or 50000km or something like that) the registration costs go up dramatically. very obviously an older car in japan really would cost more than a new one then.

i can only talk of prices in australia. i have also owned a car in canada and ipso facto, since the americans are not ones to be outdone i believe i have a fair idea about the US too. i can quite confidently use my car as an example since it is real. it cost me $2500. has cost an extra $300 or so a year in repairs so far. if i had to buy a whole new engine for it each year it would cost me an extra $1500 or so per year. only then might it compare in price to a new car. that would be $6000 spent in 4 years. i could sell the car for about $2500 again (its old enough that price doesnt go down). the new small car might be $15000, sell for $7500 thus $7500 spent in the same time. if i had to buy a new engine every year, i might consider a new car 

not a perfect example because my car isnt as fuel efficient as a modern 4 cylinder car. if i didnt buy a vw, i probably would have bought a late 70's early 80's toyota corolla. that would have used less fuel. similar costs to what ive just mentioned, less fuel.

an even easier example to grasp (unless like i say it costs more where you live to register an older car) is the fact that as you say, after 4 or 5 years whatever car youve bought will have depreciated by 50%. so 30k has turned into 15k. if someone were to buy that (now) second hand car, i cant see that it would cost another 15k to maintain for another 4 or 5 years. in fact, most cars are good for about 10 years. which is what jdurg is aiming at, which i think is reasonable since the total costs would more closely match that of having bought a second hand car...

what you can get in australia:

obviously shopping around would net better prices and lower kms. this is the first useful site i looked at.

toyota- $2500 to $5000

i would pick the starlets out of these

toyota- $5000 to $10000

later model corollas and camrys would be a good buy

all makes and models- $2500 to $10000

the '97 saab at the bottom for a bit of class. the $2700 ford fairmont near the top if you do what paige was saying and have a spare car  the mercedes 190e for $5990 looks like a fair deal

a couple of new cars (too many to have a useful list)

toyota yaris $15190

toyota camry $29,500

they happen to be quite close in price to my ball park figures! there are of course cheaper and more expensive brands. i picked toyota because everyone agrees they arent a bad make and tend to hold their value well (compared to others)

for registration purposes, the only thing they look at in australia, canada and the US is the type of car (sports, truck sedan etc) size of engine and number of cylinders/rotors. the age is irrelevant. how do these prices compare to holland? this could solve a few problems we seem to be having...

[paigeoliver]

Taxis, public transport and "for hire" vehicles are generally exempt from child safety seat rules. I do think that kids should have them, however a single (or even multiple) incident in riding in a taxi without them is less dangerous to your child than ANY time they EVER play sports.

The missouri laws have this little bit in them,

"The act does not apply to public carriers for hire or to students four years of age or older who are passengers on a school bus designed for carrying eleven passengers or more and which is manufactured or equipped pursuant to Missouri Minimum Standards for School Buses (Sections 307.178 and 307.182)."

And basically every state and country has the same little rider to their child seat laws. Another common exemption is that if you have more kids than official seating positions then you can just pile them all in the backseat willy nilly, the same way everyone used to do it back in the old days.

Also, school buses shouldn't have seat belts. Only a few kids die annually in school bus crashes, so few in fact that adding seat belts would actually increase that number (it is very hard to make a number like 3 go down, but one school bus on fire that had seat belts, or a couple chokings, or a beating to death with the buckle would certainly make the number go up).

[paigeoliver]

I actually got excited when I thought you had a link to a $2700 Fairmont and then realized that a Fairmont is a modern Taurus in Australia. We used to have a Fairmont in the late 70s/early 80s and I have always wanted one (specifically a Mint Green Futura model with a white vinyl top and a white vinyl interior like this girl I went to high school with had), and a $2700 one would look like it was fresh from the showroom (I have seen a couple immaculate ultra-low mileage American Fairmonts on ebay in the past and they only fetched around that price.

Here is one that didn't meet reserve on ebay, wrong color scheme and missing the vinyl top, but you couldn't ask for better condition that this one.

ebay Link shortened by saint



That Fairmont/Taurus is actually bringing a premium because it can run on propane (which is apparently cheaper than gas these days, at least that is what the ad says). That same money (here at least) would get you a 2002 model with fairly low mileage. Tauruses are an amazing buy used. If I just wanted vanilla transportation I'd drop 3K on a 5-6 year old Taurus in a heartbeat. And since they devalue so early you could actually do really well buying Tauruses with 70K on them for $3000, driving them up to about 100K and then reselling them for $2000. Most of them would probably make it without ever seeing a repair shop for anything other than maintenance.

On the cheap Toyota list I would probably pick the 1981 TOYOTA CROWN MS112. It looks like a nice car, seems classy, and I know that most of that $5K I spent would still be there for me when I went to sell it, as long as I kept it up.

[patrickl]

how do these prices compare to holland? this could solve a few problems we seem to be having...

I was talking more about US prices. Cars (and thus insurance) and gas are bout twice as expensive in the Netherlands. Overall it doesn't matter for the budget though. the difference between new and junker is still 30%.

Sure if you drive a 50,000 car the absolute difference will be greater, but for a car of normal price in the US the monthy cost difference will be between $50 and $100.

Besides, I'm talking about average cars and cars that are actually being driven. So not the one bizarre case that never breaks down in 200K miles. If you use your bike or scooter and not your car then sure you car will not break down. If you use your car every day and drive an normal average of kilometers/miles per year you will have break downs and high maintenance costs on the old junker (if not total loss due to catastrophic failure)

[danny_galaga]

fairmonts and falcons in australia have a roughly similar spec to the american models. but designed here. they only came in straight 6 and V8, thus a bit bigger than the taurus which i dont believe sold here...

[danny_galaga]

how do these prices compare to holland? this could solve a few problems we seem to be having...

I was talking more about US prices. Cars (and thus insurance) and gas are bout twice as expensive in the Netherlands. Overall it doesn't matter for the budget though. the difference between new and junker is still 30%.

Sure if you drive a 50,000 car the absolute difference will be greater, but for a car of normal price in the US the monthy cost difference will be between $50 and $100.

Besides, I'm talking about average cars and cars that are actually being driven. So not the one bizarre case that never breaks down in 200K miles. If you use your bike or scooter and not your car then sure you car will not break down. If you use your car every day and drive an normal average of kilometers/miles per year you will have break downs and high maintenance costs on the old junker (if not total loss due to catastrophic failure)

for my car 'the master' i drove it every day to work for the first two years. half an hour each way. i also took it on several mini road trips where i drove all day and into the evening. until this year, when i started riding my bike to work (takes the same amount of time!) this was not a car that just sits in a garage getting polished. many, many people drive second hand cars to work every day with little hassle. most of my work colleagues drive second hand cars, and amazingly, make it to work on time 99.99% of the time. you better hope this is the case, if second hand cars were as unreliable as you and wade make out, you wont be able to GIVE your car away after your 4 years is up

honestly, can you not see that this is the case? from a pure argument by selected instance, i can report that it seems to me those friends that drive second car they paid for in cash are always financially better off than those friends who have got a loan for a new car...

i think you and wade are dazzling yourselves with this 'pay this much a month' thing. draw a giant 20000 on  a large piece of cardboard. now tear it into pieces. reassemble. it still says 20000 doesnt it? if those tears represented a loan, then more pieces will magically appear. it will be even more than 20000. tearing up the figure into monthly amounts wont make it less in the end, and will probably make it more

but lets talk your language then. lets take my car as an example again. imagine i will sell it after 4 years. 2500 plus 2000 for repairs. 4500 (2,697.45 EUR  ) divide by 48= 93.75 a month. ok, new small car 15000. divide by 48= 312.50. so, where is this 30% of which you speak?

[patrickl]

but lets talk your language then. lets take my car as an example again. imagine i will sell it after 4 years. 2500 plus 2000 for repairs. 4500 (2,697.45 EUR  ) divide by 48= 93.75 a month. ok, new small car 15000. divide by 48= 312.50. so, where is this 30% of which you speak?

Mostly in the fact that you forget to add all the other costs like the insurance, fuel, taxes. My car costs 618 a month (with 340 in added costs). Add that to yours and it's 618 vs 434 and presto driving a junker is only 30% cheaper.

you better hope this is the case, if second hand cars were as unreliable as you and wade make out, you wont be able to GIVE your car away after your 4 years is up

A 4 year old cars is still lightyears away from the state and maintenance/reliability misery of an old junker.

Everyone in my family has driven an old junker. A lot of friends of mine did. All these cars had maintenance costs that were way higher than 2000 over 4 years. Many ended in catastrophic failures. Racking up amazingly high depreciation costs.

[shardian]

I refuse to continue reading this thread until Paige fixes his link. WTF dude, you should know better!

[danny_galaga]

i still think you are adding euros to dollars for an interesting result 

ok, when i commuted, it was about $30 per week for fuel. lets just call that $120/month. insurance is about $150 per year (third party fire and theft) so 12.50/month. plus the actual cost of the car plus repairs 93.75/month. almost forgot registration  $43/month total cost is about $295.50 per month for my car if you work it like that.

the toyota yaris would have used roughly $20 per week fuel if i were driving it. so lets say $80/month. you should have full insurance for a new car. using the same company i used (AAMI) it is 43.75/month (cheaper per year, but you like these monthly figures  ) the car itself $312.50/month (and as you say, no extra costs in four years if still in warranty), registration $43/month so total is $419.50/month.

i can see what you are getting at now. that is roughly 42% more, which is in the ballpark to your 30% figure. but i still think that is considerably more expensive. perhaps we should debate what the definition of 'considerably' is. to me 42% is considerably more. using the car dealers trick of making it look like nothing by making it monthly doesnt disguise the fact that in four years i would have spent about $7000 dollars more. the difference would be even more if my second hand car was more fuel efficient. in fact the new yaris would be about 100% more than my junker (nee, niet JUNKERS-het vliegtuig  ) if it had similar fuel economy (which is entirely possible, cars havent become terribly more fuel efficient. swap my car for an old corolla or similar).

 i can quite easily drive the car i have for  ten years (if we still have any fuel by then). that works out to about $193/month. allowing for money back on the new car (about $7500 after five years) and the cost of another ($15000) works out to about $311/month or about a 60% premium to my costs. this is about the cost of the new car ($14160) over a ten year period!

edit: forgot the rego on that last example but i think that figure just strengthens my case anyway...

anyway, i think really the question is what you consider 'considerably more expensive' 

oh, and shardian, link is fixed. read away 

[shardian]

Okay, there is a ton of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- here, so I'll just hit the points that I remember off the cuff:

About Taxis: Paige, I think your idea of Taxis is heavily influenced by movies set in NY. In real life, a Taxi can take up to an hour to reach you. In my area, there might be 1 or two mom and pop operations with a car or two each. And where do you get your idea that Taxi's are safer?!? I have seen the taxi's around here - they are whatever beater the company has on hand with a sticker on the side! Even the big cities are switching to the "tin cans" that you despise.

And here are several facts that need to be considered when driving an older used car:
1. Liability insurance
2. blue book value
3. Finding a good value replacement used car when yours bites the dust

If you get in a wreck in a car with liability and you are at fault then bye bye $2k car - good luck finding another $2k car with the $2k you do not have. This can happen the day after you buy your car and you would be so screwed it would not be funny - especially if you buy a $5k used car and have liability.
The other issue is Blue Book Value. I refuse to buy a used car that will have liability anywhere near blue book value. I treat the gap between sale price and BB value to be "car equity", and keep the upfront repair cost below this amount. This fact paid off huge on my last car. I got a $3300 BB value Volvo for $850 and did upfront and intermediate repairs that brought my total investment to about $2500. The car was hit and totalled in a parking lot, which means I actually got paid to own the car for 2 years.
That brings me to #3, finding a replacement. With the way people are jacking there prices through the roof for good mpg beaters, finding a car for $3k or less that met my requirements has been next to impossible. Luckily I listened to the birdy in my ear and kept my other beater sitting in the driveway all this time.

Bottom line, going used or beater is a gamble that can turn out awesome, or can be a nightmare. I've been on both ends of the gamble, and except for extreme examples (such as wrecking two or mroe beaters at your fault in a year), it will end up being cheaper than new.

On the other end of the spectrum, if someone buys new and drives the car more 10 years or more without any issues and then sells or trades, they will come out smelling like roses too - and with many less headaches than a person who blew thru 4-5 used cars in that same 10 year span.

In summary, here are your two best cost effective options:
1. buy cheap used and hope for the best
2. buy affordable, good rep, high mpg new and drive for 10+ years

[HaRuMaN]

2. buy affordable, good rep, high mpg new and drive for 10+ years

This is what my wife and I do...  we pretty much drive it until the wheels fall off, then get a new one.  The only thing I had to replace in my wife's '99 Civic (with 256K miles on it) was the coil (other than normal maintenance items).

Then we got totalled by some idiot driving way too fast in 6 inches of wet snow with a '68 Camaro...   

[patrickl]

Well my income is paid per month so that's usually what I relate my expenses too. But sure you could do it over the whole run too.

the toyota yaris would have used roughly $20 per week fuel if i were driving it. so lets say $80/month. you should have full insurance for a new car. using the same company i used (AAMI) it is 43.75/month (cheaper per year, but you like these monthly figures  ) the car itself $312.50/month (and as you say, no extra costs in four years if still in warranty), registration $43/month so total is $419.50/month.

How do you get that a Yaris "itself" costs $312 a month? Is that depreciation? Depreciation on a 15,000 yaris would be roughly $150 a month. If you correct for that in your calculation then the new Yaris would cost roughly $250 a month.

Your monthly car costs are:
- $120 for fuel,
- $12.50 for insurance
- $40 on repairs
- $26 in depreciation ($2500 car worth half after 4 years = $1250/48)
=$198.50

With the Yaris coming out at $250 a month, the difference in cost is just over $50 a month (a 20% saving on the cost of driving a new Yaris).

anyway, I think really the question is what you consider 'considerably more expensive' 

True and it will depend on the cost (or cost difference) in relation to the income too.

[Wade]

I'd like to know how dannygalaga gets insurance for $150/yr.  Do you actually have the minimum liability coverage required by law?  Or are you piggybacking on your parents insurance?

Danny says that the money he saves driving a beater for 10 years (good luck with that, BTW) would save him enough money to buy a new car.  Well, my position is, why not just buy the new car??

I've spent more on my used cars and repairs for the past 10 years than it takes to buy a new car.  That's why I finally got smart and bought a cheap, new car.  The cost difference is minimal, and I'd have the benefit of better reliability, better mileage (than what I had), better safety (airbags), comfort (my beaters had non-working A/C, as many do), and predictable expense.

With an old used car it's simply a big gamble.  A few of you have been extremely lucky, most people have not, or breakdowns are not a problem for your lifestyle, family, or job.  Two of my breakdowns left me quite a distance from home.  There's no dirt cheap or quick way to recover from that.  Taking a day off work, if necessary, is another several hundred dollars.  It only takes one or two of these incidents before it's to your benefit to have a new car. 

For me, it was a no brainer.  I'm planning to take the "middle road" and drive this new car for as long as it is reliable, which will likely be 5-10 years.

People should be doubling their income and wealth about every 10 years as well, so that already $100/month price difference will get even smaller relative to income, as time goes on.

Wade

[paigeoliver]

I don't use taxis myself, but I do work behind a hotel counter and thus have called more of them than most people can ever imagine, I am well aware of the highly variable response time they come with.

[danny_galaga]

How do you get that a Yaris "itself" costs $312 a month? Is that depreciation? Depreciation on a 15,000 yaris would be roughly $150 a month. If you correct for that in your calculation then the new Yaris would cost roughly $250 a month.

Your monthly car costs are:
- $120 for fuel,
- $12.50 for insurance
- $40 on repairs
- $26 in depreciation ($2500 car worth half after 4 years = $1250/48)
=$198.50

With the Yaris coming out at $250 a month, the difference in cost is just over $50 a month (a 20% saving on the cost of driving a new Yaris).

anyway, I think really the question is what you consider 'considerably more expensive'

True and it will depend on the cost (or cost difference) in relation to the income too.

yeah, i realised today i left out the depreciation value for the yaris. where i calculated for ten years i actually ADDED the amount saved! however depreciation for my car (being a special example) will be essentially zero since right now i could sell it for more than i paid, and down the track probably at least the same. the yaris (times 2, years 5-10 being the second car) only works out to about $291/month with depreciation over ten years, not $311/month like i first calculated. and if you only own a car four years and never drive again, then the yaris has only cost about $323/month with depreciation. which is only about 10% more than my car over the same period! youve almost convinced me to buy a new car now (",)

except- im not willing to hand over that much cash. therefore a loan really puts the cost of a new car vs old in a different light. where someone gets a loan for a car (new OR old) there is no debate. you will pay through the nose. also, after 4 years i wont be giving up driving. so in a ten year period its still 50% more over that period.

but i concede that in the special case of owning a new toyota yaris for 4 years and never driving again, i would buy the new yaris! 


yes, about the relative value of 'considerable'. i guess that does colour our views since i am working class, as are many of my friends while obviously earn a nice salary. in relation to our earnings, that canmake quite a difference.

[danny_galaga]

I'd like to know how dannygalaga gets insurance for $150/yr.  Do you actually have the minimum liability coverage required by law?  Or are you piggybacking on your parents insurance?

Danny says that the money he saves driving a beater for 10 years (good luck with that, BTW) would save him enough money to buy a new car.  Well, my position is, why not just buy the new car??

i drive a beater, i only really need to have third party (i lashed out and had fire and theft tacked onto it for an extra 50) for it. if its totalled in an accident thats my fault, i can buy another beater with some of that cash ive saved. if the accident isnt my fault, no sweat...

if i save $15000 in ten years on TOP of my savings, ive got an extra 15 grand i would not have had if i had a new car. perhaps in ten years, i might buy a new car with some of the money ive saved (and the capital gains and dividends it earned)...

[AtomSmasher]

therefore a loan really puts the cost of a new car vs old in a different light. where someone gets a loan for a car (new OR old) there is no debate. you will pay through the nose.

Unless your like me and get a $0 down 0% interest loan 

[danny_galaga]

  A few of you have been extremely lucky, most people have not, or breakdowns are not a problem for your lifestyle, family, or job.  Two of my breakdowns left me quite a distance from home.  There's no dirt cheap or quick way to recover from that.  Taking a day off work, if necessary, is another several hundred dollars.  It only takes one or two of these incidents before it's to your benefit to have a new car. 

it's not luck. i'm not being glib, but really it's a talent. you (and many others) don't seem to have it. part of that clearly is a lack of time or inclination to maintain an older car properly. fair enough. some of it is just a lack of that special repoir you develop with a car. i believe paige has the talent and so do i. i drove my last beater for about ten years. i had a beater that wasnt so great (a triumph saloon) and it had some weird transmission problems- those mofos have SIX universal joints! but i honed my talents on that car so that i now have quite a good sense of how a car is going to fair. when i test drove my VW, i knew it could last the distance. you always bear in mind that things are going to break on an older car, part of the talent is knowing what kind of things and avoiding them if possible- tip for would be beater buyers: avoid cars with power steering!

[danny_galaga]

therefore a loan really puts the cost of a new car vs old in a different light. where someone gets a loan for a car (new OR old) there is no debate. you will pay through the nose.

Unless your like me and get a $0 down 0% interest loan 

theres always someone, isnt there 

[patrickl]

it's not luck. i'm not being glib, but really it's a talent. you (and many others) don't seem to have it. part of that clearly is a lack of time or inclination to maintain an older car properly.

It's more if you enjoy doing it. I was forced to maintain my old junker too, but I really rather have my weekends off and not waste them on tinkering with an old car.

It's really just a matter of trading in free time, a superior ride, high reliability and a quantum leap in safety for a 30% savings.

Let's do the Yaris calculation properly:
Driving a new Yaris for 10 years
   93,75    depreciation (15000 divided in half twice makes a return of 3750. Loss in value divided by 120)
   32,81    insurance (full for the first 5 and I took half for the last 5)
   80,00    gas
   43,00    reg
   20,00    maint (40 a month for the last 5 years)
= 269,56 total a month

Driving a new Yaris for 5 years
  156,25    depreciation (15000 divided in half and divided by 48)
   43,75    insurance
   80,00    gas
   43,00    registration
     0,00   maintenance
= 323,00 total a month

I didn't use realistic maintenance figures since you don't do so either.

To redo your cars costs I will correct the depreciation down a bit and add the registration.
 13   depreciation
 12,5   insurance
 120   gas
 43   registration
 40   maintenance
228,5 total per month  (which is 85% of driving new for 10 years and 70% of driving new for 5 years)

You would save $4500 over 5 years against driving new and  $5000 over 10 years against "driving a new car for 10 years".

The only way you stay near the 30% saving (compared to driving new) is by claiming ridiculously low maintenance costs (mostly because you value your own time at $0) and by claiming that a 15 year old car has practically the same value as a 10 year old car (which in reality is not going to be true in most cases). On the other hand a Yaris is probably a lot smaller than your car so that's not a fair comparison either.

[danny_galaga]

well, ive come half way at least    i factored in $500 a year maintainence on my car. i bet though if i set up a special bank account for that maintainence, depositing $500 a year into it, by year 5 i would still have something left in it. so i think i was over-estimating the cost of maintainence for my car if anything. i agree with paige on depreciation too. once you get to a certain age in a car, the depreciation is a lot less comparably. in the case of some cars like VW's, since they are perenial favourites, the price doesnt go lower but can even climb (not ahead of inflation of course, but still).  i think youre estimate for $40/month for last 5 years is fine. that would cover a timing belt and a few bits and pieces. could even come out less...however i didnt add the extra charges you get slugged when you buy a new car since i dont know exactly what they are. for the yaris, it would probably bring it to around $16000.

maintainance costs really are zero if you do it yourself. thats the beauty of it. think of it this way- if you change a lightbulb in your house,  you have saved $25 because you didn't call a handyman. but who would call a handyman to change a lightbulb if they can do it themselves? if the microswitches in your sanwa joystick are stuffed and you replaced them yourself, you can say youve saved $50 because you didnt take it to some technician.  i can also say i saved $764/month with MY car because i didnt buy YOUR car!

theres a saying i picked up from a cartoon panel i saw as a kid. in it you see a wife busily making a dress, pins in her mouth, hunched over a sewing machine. the husband is in the foreground reading the paper. he says "where's the savings? if you didn't make it, i wasn't going to buy it!"