now that's a car

[ChadTower]

Not a car guy at all but that's kind of cool.  A couple miles from my house.

http://boston.craigslist.org/sob/car/387800346.html

[tommy]

This is a car!! 

[Apollo]

No, I think you'll find that THIS is a car!

[AtomSmasher]

This is a knife

[Bond007]

This too is a car.

[Chris G]

 

[tommy]

I'll take those bucket seats in that charger and screaming hemi motor over anything that thing can do. When you drive that hemi you feel it rumblin down the road. You can't beat that feeling in a car.

It's not mine but i had one similar.

[boykster]

I'll take those bucket seats in that charger and screaming hemi motor over anything that thing can do. When you drive that hemi you feel it rumblin down the road. You can't beat that feeling in a car.

It's not mine but i had one similar.

And you've driven the Bently so you can make a fair comparison?

[patrickl]

When you drive that hemi you feel it rumblin down the road. You can't beat that feeling in a car.

Buy a vibrator and set the speakers of your stereo really loud?

[tommy]

I'll take those bucket seats in that charger and screaming hemi motor over anything that thing can do. When you drive that hemi you feel it rumblin down the road. You can't beat that feeling in a car.

It's not mine but i had one similar.

And you've driven the Bentley so you can make a fair comparison?

There is no comparison. The Bentley does not rumble down the road in muscle car fashion and it's not meant to. The Bentley is a luxury car. That's why i prefer the hemi.

[Havok]

I'm with Tommy there. I have an '86 TransAm with a highly modified Chevy small block, and there's just no feeling like it. A fast luxury car with a smooth ride is nice, but not the same. Here's my baby:

[shardian]

Having read that listing, RUN!!!! That thing is a disaster waiting to happen and on top of that, it is ugly as hell!

My father-in-law has a mid-eighties Corvette that is a blast to drive. It is low, loud, cramped, uncomfortable as hell, extremely bumpy ride...and it is AWESOME!! I know corvette afficionados don't like the 80's Vettes, but IMO they are still good looking cars, and most importantly aside from the body style, it is still a Corvette underneath the body.

[FrizzleFried]

The 80's were a TERRIBLE decade for American automobiles.  ALMOST as bad as 1973-1979.  So basically 1973-1989 sucked...1990-2007 has been pretty ---smurfy--- as well.  Bottom line is that TRUE MUSCLE CARS died in 1972...the year I was born.   ---daisies---.

[ChadTower]

I'm trying to figure out how that car has a million miles on it.

[AtomSmasher]

The 80's were a TERRIBLE decade for American automobiles.  ALMOST as bad as 1973-1979.  So basically 1973-1989 sucked...1990-2007 has been pretty ---smurfy--- as well.  Bottom line is that TRUE MUSCLE CARS died in 1972...the year I was born.   ---daisies---.

Which is why my favorite muscle car is the original muscle car, the GTO.  The new GTO's are pretty nice too     (known as Holden Monaro's to the Aussie's)

[Havok]

I'm trying to figure out how that car has a million miles on it.

He probably screwed with the odometer. They have an anti-tamper device on them...

[danny_galaga]

The 80's were a TERRIBLE decade for American automobiles.  ALMOST as bad as 1973-1979.  So basically 1973-1989 sucked...1990-2007 has been pretty ---smurfy--- as well.  Bottom line is that TRUE MUSCLE CARS died in 1972...the year I was born.   ---daisies---.

Which is why my favorite muscle car is the original muscle car, the GTO.  The new GTO's are pretty nice too     (known as Holden Monaro's to the Aussie's)

well, we did make em (",) . interestingly, in the UK it was still called a monaro from Vauxhall. its some sort of aboriginal word (probably meaning stick that go boom or summink  )

[Loki]

Here's a nice little car

[AtomSmasher]

Which is why my favorite muscle car is the original muscle car, the GTO.  The new GTO's are pretty nice too     (known as Holden Monaro's to the Aussie's)

well, we did make em (",) . interestingly, in the UK it was still called a monaro from Vauxhall. its some sort of aboriginal word (probably meaning stick that go boom or summink  )

Ya, Holden actually has a bunch of cool designs, I'm just glad one of them finally made it to the states.  There were rumors of them bringing the Ute over and calling it the new El Camino, which would of been cool, but it never happened.  The new camero is actually based on a Holden design too, but instead of shipping them over from Aus. like the GTO, they're going to make them in Canada.

edit* just thought I'd mention that the only reason they brought the Monaro to US is because it was the 40th anniversary of the GTO and the new president of Pontiac wanted to bring the GTO back.  They didn't have a decent local platform to do it on (they were all 6 cyl or front wheel drive) and didn't have the time or resources to develop a new one, so they shipped one over from Australia.  Thats the reason they changed the name to GTO, it wouldn't of come to America at all if it wasn't for the name.

[koolmoecraig]

It's a shame that they styled it like a Cavalier/Grand Am.  Great drivetrain but the styling was about 8 years old upon introduction.  Imagine what the GTO could have been if they actually did more than "badge engineering".

It is a great car for the money, especially since the dealers can't give them away.  I've heard stories of close to $10k off of sticker to move them.

[AtomSmasher]

It's a shame that they styled it like a Cavalier/Grand Am.  Great drivetrain but the styling was about 8 years old upon introduction.  Imagine what the GTO could have been if they actually did more than "badge engineering".

Ya, that does seem to be the most common complaint, that the exterior is fairly bland.  You have to remember though that the original GTO came from a car similar to the Grand Am.  They took the fairly economical Le Mans, put the biggest engine they could into it and renamed it the GTO, so they remained pretty faithful to the namesake by not making it a flashy sports car.  And for a car that is styled "like a Cavalier/Grand Am", I still get a thumbs up or a comment from a random driver or pedestrian on a weekly basis (or both in the case of last week, a guy on the freeway giving me a thumbs up and then yelling he wants one too).

But your right about it not selling well, there was even a manufacturers incentive at one point that was $6000 off msrp (I got mine about $5000 under msrp in late 2004 if your wondering).  If you can find a new one still on the lot (and it wouldn't surprise me if there were still some around), I have no doubt you could easily buy it for $10000 under msrp.  A large part of the problem was a lack of advertising, I think I only ever saw one commercial for it and that was on the Speed channel.  I'm sure the fact that the exterior doesn't catch ones eye hurt it a lot as well, unless you've already been told about the car, you'd have no idea what it was just by looking at it.

If you can't tell, I like my car and have no problem going on and on about it    I actually wrote at least twice as much as I posted, but I decided to edit it down so I don't come across quite as bad as Howard C talking about scifi (and if you read this Howard, you have to admit you have a tendancy to be a bit verbose, so hopefully you won't take offense to this)

[Thenasty]

can't compare a MUSCLE (sounds MANLY) and Luxury (sounds gay)....

Here is  a car.

[pointdablame]

a luxury car sounds gay?  what???

I agree that there is no sound in the world like a well tuned high displacement engine... but you sound like a 12 year old.

Not to mention there are a TON of really great luxury and sport luxury cars out there that both sound and perform amazingly.  BMW M series, any AMG mercedes, etc etc....

[AtomSmasher]

How about the 1001 horsepower, million dollar msrp Bugatti?

[patrickl]

a luxury car sounds gay?  what???

I agree that there is no sound in the world like a well tuned high displacement engine... but you sound like a 12 year old.

Not to mention there are a TON of really great luxury and sport luxury cars out there that both sound and perform amazingly.  BMW M series, any AMG mercedes, etc etc....

Not to mention that a BMW or Mercedes (or any other "luxury" sports car) will actually go around a corner or bend.

[pointdablame]

Well supercars go into an entirely different realm IMO.  They all sound great, but are also ridiculously expensive.  That's not to say that the M or AMG cars are cheap by any means, but they are still in the "normal" car realm in my mind.  A big stretch for most people financially, but still on the same planet 

Supercars really do have some of the scariest, nicest, sounds ever created by vehicles though.  McLaren F1, Zonda, Enzo, Veyron, Carrera GT.... it's like a damn shymphony of pistons.   I'm gonna have to go watch some videos of them now.

[pointdablame]

a luxury car sounds gay?  what???

I agree that there is no sound in the world like a well tuned high displacement engine... but you sound like a 12 year old.

Not to mention there are a TON of really great luxury and sport luxury cars out there that both sound and perform amazingly.  BMW M series, any AMG mercedes, etc etc....

Not to mention that a BMW or Mercedes (or any other "luxury" sports car) will actually go around a corner or bend.

A good point, but a bit of a blanket statement. 

In the muscle car era, I agree... you won't find many of those cars that enjoy curves at all.  However, since I mentioned newer cars, there are plenty of high horsepower sports cars that handle well around a track, and just as many luxury cars that have 500hp but weight 5000lbs and are dogs around a bend.

[patrickl]

These new high horsepower cars are not the rumbling "floating ships" that they are supposed to be. So they would be considered luxury sports cars too.

[pointdablame]

Again, a blanket statement.  Not all high horsepower cars today are luxury sports cars.  And you don't need to be a land yacht to have raw power.  See the Z06.

Or the Mercedes S65 AMG - 600hp, 700+ ft/lb, and most certainly close to a "floating ship" at over 5000 lbs.  Now granted, it's an extreme example... but that is certainly not a sports car in any sense.  But it's high horsepower for sure.

[patrickl]

I'm not saying that they are luxury cars, but more that they (not any car since 1973?) are not the "muscle cars" that were talked about earlier in the thread (and thus that the muscle car lovers will say that they are "luxury cars")

BTW that Merc is a lot more nippy than any muscle car of the 60s or 70s.

[pointdablame]

BTW that Merc is a lot more nippy than any muscle car of the 60s or 70s.

well it does have 4 decades of engineering on the muscle cars heh

[Howard_Casto]

Just for the record, about the trans-am... anyone who insults the sheer perfection of the third-gen f body surely has a special place in hell.  Third gen cars were and still are impressive in their beauty and performance.  The last great sports car.  On top of that they don't have all these crazy "penis envy" add-ons that shoot the price up to unreasonable levels, making them practical as well.

[pointdablame]

Just for the record, about the trans-am... anyone who insults the sheer perfection of the third-gen f body surely has a special place in hell.  Third gen cars were and still are impressive in their beauty and performance.  The last great sports car.  On top of that they don't have all these crazy "penis envy" add-ons that shoot the price up to unreasonable levels, making them practical as well.

except the one that is in that craigslist ad, which is a certified train wreck

[patrickl]

Indeed no car can beat Kitt. Well maybe Herbie?

Or how about the new Kitt:

[pointdablame]

Who put that stupid red light on the front of that Koenigsegg CCX? 

[boykster]

Just for the record, about the trans-am... anyone who insults the sheer perfection of the third-gen f body surely has a special place in hell.  Third gen cars were and still are impressive in their beauty and performance.  The last great sports car.  On top of that they don't have all these crazy "penis envy" add-ons that shoot the price up to unreasonable levels, making them practical as well.

just don't actually drive it, because it will fall apart. 

and to the numbnutts that called luxury cars "gay"   

[koolmoecraig]

Just for the record, about the trans-am... anyone who insults the sheer perfection of the third-gen f body surely has a special place in hell.  Third gen cars were and still are impressive in their beauty and performance.  The last great sports car.  On top of that they don't have all these crazy "penis envy" add-ons that shoot the price up to unreasonable levels, making them practical as well.

Are you kidding me?  Those are some of the biggest rattle-trap pieces of crap ever.  The chassis was flexible as hell.  Hardly a platform to be used in the high horsepower models that showed up at the end.  And to call it a sports car?    Puhhhlease.  I'll give you "pony" car hell, I'll even give you muscle car but a sports car it was not.  A sports car needs to have a real suspension that makes it handle.  Those things counted completely on the grip of their wide-ass tires.  It was a straight-line muscle car in the vein of the 70's.  NOT a sports car.

When originally introduced the styling was fresh but as with most of those Mullet-Mobiles the styling updates consisted of slapping on layers upon layers of cheap plastic body cladding and spoilers.  The Trans-Am Firebird GTA got the worst of it.  Tacky and white-trashed as all hell.  Only the Firebird Formula model stayed clean bodywise.  They don't have "penis envy" add-ons?  The entire car screams "I AM UNDER ENDOWED"!!!

Towards the end, the SLP Firehawk(less than 30 built I think) was pretty cool but as with all GM cars, when they finally get it right, nobody cares anymore cause the car's outdated and it gets pulled from production(Fiero, Allante anyone?).

Want an example of how weak those things are?  A dear friend of mine was driving a 1988 Camaro RS with T-tops.  She slid off the road at approx 30mph(according to police and a witness) and hit a tree dead-center sideways.  The ENTIRE CAR BROKE IN HALF.  She was killed instantly.

Rattle trap garbage and a perennial favorite of the trailer trash.

[koolmoecraig]

Maybe that's a LITTLE harsh.  Call them what they are though.  They are poorly built American "pony" cars.  Cars like this are what lead to the Japanese import scene completely taking over the youth Hot Rodding culture.  Tacky relics from the past. Can they be fun? Of course, ANYTHING with a V8 and RWD is pretty much sure to be some sort of fun.

They didn't even really get fast until the later years.  I had an '86 Shelby Turbo Dodge Omni(GLH-S) back in 1990 and I could smoke those bloated F-Bodies all day long.

In 1986 a Shelby Omni had a 2.2(135cid) 4cyl turbo putting out 175hp. GM's 5.0(305cid) put out 190hp in a car that weighed about 1000 pound more(!).

Nothing was more pleasurable than smoking a "sports car" in a 4-Door "grocery getter".

Good times.

[Havok]

You wouldn't be smoking me. Just a few weeks ago I surprised the hell out out of a ricer Lancer Evo "turbo" - whoop de freakin do... That turbo didn't help him any. He did try though... And with a few body\suspension modifications, my TA is tight - no rattles, and corners better than a Vette. With a couple of mods, my TA is a sports car - you must have went up against the guys who had a engine problems, or maybe weren't even racing you?

[patrickl]

A Mitsubishi lancer Evo has a 0-60 time of between 4 and 5 seconds. A Trans Am does 0-60 in over 7 seconds? You either have a seriously upgraded Trans Am, or the Evo wasn't an Evo (or the Evo wasn't trying)

I had an Audi TT. Not really a fast car by todays standards, but even in that I never had any problems with the muscle cars I came up against.

[leapinlew]

Lets remember where we are children...


Heres a car

[patrickl]

No way, THIS is a car

[Havok]

I have a seriously upgraded Trans Am... suspension, brake and engine mods...

 

And yes, it was an Evo, and yes he was trying. Cute sound those little turbos make - but still a lawn mower engine. Don't get me wrong - I didn't leave him in the dust, but I beat him, albeit barely, but did suprise the crap out of him...

A Mitsubishi lancer Evo has a 0-60 time of between 4 and 5 seconds. A Trans Am does 0-60 in over 7 seconds? You either have a seriously upgraded Trans Am, or the Evo wasn't an Evo (or the Evo wasn't trying)

I had an Audi TT. Not really a fast car by todays standards, but even in that I never had any problems with the muscle cars I came up against.

[koolmoecraig]

You can sneeze on a V8 and give it tons of power.  There isn't really anything impressive about it from a tech stand point.  It's a big honkin' motor.  Cams, carb and exhaust and you are probably up 100hp.  You can't really beat the feeling of that rush of torque though.

143hp per liter in a stock EVO is impressive as hell.  It will spank 99% of everything on the road not only in a straight line but around the turns too.  The fact that it stops on a dime essentially gives it more horsepower as well(you can carry your speed later into a turn). Lay off the power and you'll see around 25mpg too.  How's the mileage on your T/A? Under 10mpg at full throttle?  I bet that's fun at $3.50 a gallon.

[Havok]

$2.93 a gallon here, and yeah the mileage sucks, but I live\work\play within a 13 mile radius, so no big deal...

Haven't met a ricer yet that can take me...

 

[koolmoecraig]

I haven't had anyone in ANY car able to keep up with me down Mulholland in my Miata.

[AtomSmasher]

It's generally pretty stupid and unsafe to race down public streets, I have done it occasionally on a highway with no one else around (*edit*except the person I'm racing of course), but I usually save my racing for the local drag strip.  And yes the EVO is impressive (and stupid looking), but theres no replacement for displacement 

[shardian]

143hp per liter in a stock EVO is impressive as hell.  It will spank 99% of everything on the road not only in a straight line but around the turns too.  The fact that it stops on a dime essentially gives it more horsepower as well(you can carry your speed later into a turn). Lay off the power and you'll see around 25mpg too.  How's the mileage on your T/A? Under 10mpg at full throttle?  I bet that's fun at $3.50 a gallon.

A honda S2000 has the highest NATURALLY ASPIRATED HP to displacement ratio out there at ~125HP. Saying you get 143/per out of a twin turbo is the same as bragging about 300hp in a souped V8.

Having said that, a Canary Yellow S2000 is my dream car. That thing is engineering and symmetry bliss ( not to mention the big, red, shiny start button...I like buttons!).

As to Firebirds/trans Am's, I have seen many photos of a Pontiac twisted or torn into two pieces. I personally won't own a Pontiac for that reason. Now the 2001 loaded trans Am that my brother in law had would stick to the road like glue. The 80's models would throw you all over the road unless the suspension was modified or extra large tires were added.

[koolmoecraig]

EVO has 1 turbo.

I've never seen a twin-turbo 4cyl.

[koolmoecraig]

S2000 is a sweet ride but the lack of any sort of torque makes it a tiring ride.  You have to rap the sucker out to 9000 rpm on every shift to feel any power.

Not that that's a bad thing when you wanna have fun but during the daily grind it sucks.

[boykster]

but theres no replacement for displacement 

sure there is.  the engines used in F1 cars get anywhere from 700-900hp out of 2.4L and are normally aspirated.  Of course they rev to 19000(!!!!) rpm

probably not an ideal road car engine though 

[koolmoecraig]

You can install those tasty S2000 start buttons on any car.

[boykster]

hey, what happened to the uber sweet Nissan Pulsar with the hinged door?

 


Those WERE designed as modular cars....

[koolmoecraig]

They'll be back.  I forgot to delete the plate.

[boykster]

They'll be back.  I forgot to delete the plate.

ah, good call....

[pointdablame]

Cute sound those little turbos make - but still a lawn mower engine.

 

[ahofle]

I have a seriously upgraded Trans Am... suspension, brake and engine mods...

 

And yes, it was an Evo, and yes he was trying. Cute sound those little turbos make - but still a lawn mower engine. Don't get me wrong - I didn't leave him in the dust, but I beat him, albeit barely, but did suprise the crap out of him...

So you're saying you barely beat a lawn mower engine car with your heavily modified V8 Trans Am? 

[koolmoecraig]

That's exactly what he is saying.

The "no replacement for displacement" mentality is the reason the US auto industry is headed right down the gutter.

There is this red-necked bias against the Japanese by these hicks with dem der big 'ol V8 muscle cars.  I don't watch NASCAR but I cannot wait til Toyota starts handing the domestics their asses.

The US has no answer for the Hybrids or for powerfully efficient 4cylinders.  GM's best response is the Korean-built Chevy Aveo.  God help us.

As Lee Iacocca once said, "Lead, follow or get out of the way.  They sure as hell aren't leading any more.

[billf]

I don't watch NASCAR but I cannot wait til Toyota starts handing the domestics their asses.

Toyota needs to first start making it into races before any handing of asses.  Toyota has no wins in NASCAR at this point.  Granted, Ford only has 3 wins and Dodge with 2, so there not too far behind two of the major American car manufacturers.  Chevrolet is cleaning up so far this year in NASCAR with 16 wins.

[AtomSmasher]

That's exactly what he is saying.

The "no replacement for displacement" mentality is the reason the US auto industry is headed right down the gutter.

There is this red-necked bias against the Japanese by these hicks with dem der big 'ol V8 muscle cars.  I don't watch NASCAR but I cannot wait til Toyota starts handing the domestics their asses.

The US has no answer for the Hybrids or for powerfully efficient 4cylinders.  GM's best response is the Korean-built Chevy Aveo.  God help us.

As Lee Iacocca once said, "Lead, follow or get out of the way.  They sure as hell aren't leading any more.

Enjoy your miata with its giant aluminum spoiler that you need for "traction"   

I guess you really don't know too much about NASCAR because all of the engines are exactly the same.  In order for Toyota to start winning, they'll need to get some better drivers.  (No I don't watch NASCAR either, so for all I know they could already have a good driver)

Also, apparently you haven't paid attention in a few years because GM has a number of hybrid vehicles available and is about to launch a test run of fuel cell cars.

[koolmoecraig]

My Miata doesnt have enough power to lose traction.  It's a perfectly balanced sports car. 

[shardian]

I guess you really don't know too much about NASCAR because all of the engines are exactly the same.  In order for Toyota to start winning, they'll need to get some better drivers.  (No I don't watch NASCAR either, so for all I know they could already have a good driver)

The engines in Nascar are definitely not all the same. Ford uses a Ford engine, Chevy uses a Chevy engine, etc. Then each team has full reign on tweaking for different races and tracks. NASCAR sets guidelines for the engines that must be followed STRICTLY. There is just a small amount of design wiggle room truth be told, but in high performance engines of that caliber, a small amount of difference can add up to alot on the track.

[Havok]

I have a seriously upgraded Trans Am... suspension, brake and engine mods...

 

And yes, it was an Evo, and yes he was trying. Cute sound those little turbos make - but still a lawn mower engine. Don't get me wrong - I didn't leave him in the dust, but I beat him, albeit barely, but did suprise the crap out of him...

So you're saying you barely beat a lawn mower engine car with your heavily modified V8 Trans Am? 

Yep - because my car weighs 1,000 lbs more. Slap that weight in an Evo, and see how quick it is. Besides, I'm faster. Period.

The "no replacement for displacement" mentality is the reason the US auto industry is headed right down the gutter.

There is this red-necked bias against the Japanese by these hicks with dem der big 'ol V8 muscle cars.  I don't watch NASCAR but I cannot wait til Toyota starts handing the domestics their asses.

There is no replacement for displacement. Anything you do to your lawn mower, if I do the same - I get more power. You lose. And, as far as the hick comment - I'm a white collar worker in the Northeast - I'm about as far from a redneck as they get. I just like American musclecars...

As to Firebirds/trans Am's, I have seen many photos of a Pontiac twisted or torn into two pieces. I personally won't own a Pontiac for that reason.

Those photos of twisted Firebirds are because you get retarded young kids with a powerful car - that can happen to anything they drive...

And Miatas are little dinky matchbox cars!

 

[polaris]

$2.93 a gallon here, and yeah the mileage sucks, but I live\work\play within a 13 mile radius, so no big deal...

Haven't met a ricer yet that can take me...

 

---daisies--- im sure its near $20 a gallon over in the uk

[AtomSmasher]

I guess you really don't know too much about NASCAR because all of the engines are exactly the same.  In order for Toyota to start winning, they'll need to get some better drivers.  (No I don't watch NASCAR either, so for all I know they could already have a good driver)

The engines in Nascar are definitely not all the same. Ford uses a Ford engine, Chevy uses a Chevy engine, etc. Then each team has full reign on tweaking for different races and tracks. NASCAR sets guidelines for the engines that must be followed STRICTLY. There is just a small amount of design wiggle room truth be told, but in high performance engines of that caliber, a small amount of difference can add up to alot on the track.

The engines are made by different companies, but I'm pretty sure they are all the same type and style of engine and are essentially the same.  My point is that Toyota won't be able to come into NASCAR and blow away the competition because they have a significantly superior designed engine, it will be essentially the same as every other engine.  The design that gets the most power and while following the guidelines has already been found, so every car follows the same design.

[patrickl]

There is no replacement for displacement. Anything you do to your lawn mower, if I do the same - I get more power. You lose.

Isn't it harder to get higher revs on a V8 than on a "lawn mower engine".

In Formula 1 they get the same power from a V8 as they did from a V10 because they can make it rev a lot faster.

[Havok]

There is no replacement for displacement. Anything you do to your lawn mower, if I do the same - I get more power. You lose.

Isn't it harder to get higher revs on a V8 than on a "lawn mower engine".

In Formula 1 they get the same power from a V8 as they did from a V10 because they can make it rev a lot faster.

For a street car that is exactly what you don't want - high rpms. I make all my power and torque right off the line, in the 2000 - 3500 rpm range. It's much more "streetable" that way. For a true race car, yes high rpm's are the way to go. It's very easy to get more horsepower to a V8 - just get more air into the engine. With a higher air density, you can introduce more fuel into the combustion chamber, and make a more powerful explosion to increase the output of the engine.

One thing that is nice about such a tried and true combination such as the pushrod V8 design, is that it has been around for decades, and the design flaws have already been worked out. Someone mentioned that they are low tech - which can't be further from the truth. There is just as much high tech involved with designing more efficient components as the latest vehicles. Properly maintained and responsibly driven, I would wager that a V8 engine would outlast a comparable power output turbo, just due to the extra strain involved with generating a higher output from a smaller powerplant.

** Edit **

Note to self: Self - you are spending waaaay too much time in EE...

[shardian]

There is no replacement for displacement. Anything you do to your lawn mower, if I do the same - I get more power. You lose.

Isn't it harder to get higher revs on a V8 than on a "lawn mower engine".

In Formula 1 they get the same power from a V8 as they did from a V10 because they can make it rev a lot faster.

For a street car that is exactly what you don't want - high rpms. I make all my power and torque right off the line, in the 2000 - 3500 rpm range. It's much more "streetable" that way. For a true race car, yes high rpm's are the way to go. It's very easy to get more horsepower to a V8 - just get more air into the engine. With a higher air density, you can introduce more fuel into the combustion chamber, and make a more powerful explosion to increase the output of the engine.

Do you even know what a turbo charger is? I mean seriously, you are saying that to increase power in a v8 muscle car you just increase the air pushed into the engine. That is what a turbo does! A supercharger is normally used on v-8 muscle cars and guess what, it does the same thing too.

[patrickl]

You just said that your extremely souped up V8 had trouble with basically a standard V4 with turbo. Isn't the biggest part of the weight disadvantage you suffer from the engine?

That the newer V4 engines use a combination of fuel injection and turbo (and more valves). This improves both torque and horse power. Of course you could do that with a V8, but they don't. they just use the outdated technology which is struggling to keep up with a modern 4 cylinder engine.

The beauty of a modern engine is that you can rev high for a sprint or just drive normally and get 2 or 4 times the mileage of one of those old V8s.

[shardian]

The beauty of a modern engine is that you can rev high for a sprint or just drive normally and get 2 or 4 times the mileage of one of those old V8s.

Which is one reason that people still buy American cars with bigger engines - V-Tech, Z-tech...whatever they wish to call it. I'll simplify it with "power on demand" cylinder controls.

[ChadTower]

I want a Tacoma sized pickup that can do 40mpg.  Someone build that instead.

[boykster]

You just said that your extremely souped up V8 had trouble with basically a standard V4 with turbo. Isn't the biggest part of the weight disadvantage you suffer from the engine?

Exactly!  and not just the engine, but the drivetrain to support the extra power, the heavier chassis to support the engine, etc.

I just about spit coffee on my monitor when I read "Slap that weight in an Evo, and see how quick it is."  Um, isn't the point that the Evo is designed with weight and power to weight ratio in mind?  You don't need overkill HP and torque if the car is properly designed, and it will STILL be quick. 

I'm not a muscle car "hater" but seriously, to dismiss smaller, lighter, faster types of cars as 'toys', thats just juvenile.  And the miata is hardly a "matchbox" car; it is probably the closest contemporary representation of the truest definition of a classic sports car:  open top, 2 seats, balanced handling, and enough power to be fun to drive.

Sure, power is fun, but after you've eaten through your tires driving back and forth along the straightest road you can find, sports car guys will still be tearing it up on twisty roads and will also be able to afford to fill their gas tank.

 

[Havok]

Do you even know what a turbo charger is? I mean seriously, you are saying that to increase power in a v8 muscle car you just increase the air pushed into the engine. That is what a turbo does! A supercharger is normally used on v-8 muscle cars and guess what, it does the same thing too.

Yes, I do - I took automotive tech at a local community college part time when I was a "kid" because I liked to work on my car. I was addressing patrickl's question about rpms to gain power - not turbos\superchargers. And guess what? You don't need a turbo or supercharger to increase airflow\power to the engine. It can also be accomplished with a higher flow intake manifold and carb or fuel injection unit. Not to mention blueprinting, porting and polishing, stoichiometric coefficient, etc...

[shardian]

And guess what? You don't need a turbo or supercharger to increase airflow\power to the engine. It can also be accomplished with a higher flow intake manifold and carb or fuel injection unit. Not to mention blueprinting, porting and polishing, stoichiometric coefficient, etc...

Oh I know all of that. I was just trying to figure out if you knew all of that.

Blueprinting...I actually had to look that one up because I had never heard that phrase before. Round these parts, we call that "doing the job right".

[patrickl]

 

[AtomSmasher]

I'm not a muscle car "hater" but seriously, to dismiss smaller, lighter, faster types of cars as 'toys', thats just juvenile.  And the miata is hardly a "matchbox" car; it is probably the closest contemporary representation of the truest definition of a classic sports car:  open top, 2 seats, balanced handling, and enough power to be fun to drive.

I do agree with you somewhat on these points, I believe to was koolmoecraig who started with the anti muscle car and domestic car postings, although his arguments are a few years old and no longer relevant (he didn't seem to know about newer cars like the 200hp 4cyl chevy cobalt or the the 260hp 4cyl pontiac solstice).

There are excellent 4cyl and 6cyl cars out there (Audi makes some of my favorites), but I find a rear wheel drive, high horsepower car more fun to drive then all of ones with smaller engines (at least with the cars in my price range).  And larger engines are a lot easier and cheaper to add horsepower to.  It's fairly difficult to get another 100hp out of an Evo, but its not very difficult to add 150hp to a stock v8 (just add a turbo or supercharger to name one easy way).

[koolmoecraig]

The "There is no replacement for displacement" mentality is the EXACT reason why the US auto industry is in the toilet.  If Detroit would have embraced the concept of developing higher horsepower, efficient 4 cylinder engine technology they would been better suited for shift in consumer interest to more efficient vehicles.  Instead they do what they have always done(GM anyways) rebadge a primitive design and dump it for cheap(Aveo).

Just this month for the first time in history imports outsold domestics.  Even accounting for the big 3's shady "fleet sales" number padding.

How far off are we from seeing Toyota actually buying a controlling interest in GM?  Don't laugh.  It could easily happen.

As far as Toyota and NASCAR...

I remember in the 90's when Honda tried to enter Indy Car racing everyone laughed.  Bobby Rahals Honda powered car even failed to qualify for the Indy 500! Within 3 years of that they had captured the championship and had an 80% win ratio.

It will happen in NASCAR.

[koolmoecraig]

I love old American cars.  I own a 1969 Chrysler Newport with a 383 and a 1970 Dodge Polara with the same engine.  You wanna talk gas guzzling?

I'm just saying that it is sad that everyone kicks back with this primitive mentality.  Now the imports are kicking our asses because of it.

200 hp in a Cobalt.  That's a supercharged 2.0 4cylinder.  Hondas 2.2's are putting out 237hp NATURALLY ASPIRATED!  Not to mention the fact that the Cobalt is a piece that looks like a 90's era Cavalier and has about the same horrendous build quality and resale value.

The Solstice is pretty cool but still primitive.

[SLICK19]

This is one of the most horrible things I have ever seen. 
I think I am going to be sick.....

[AtomSmasher]

 

I was wrong about you koolmoecraig, you actually are a funny guy.

[ChadTower]

He's the same guy who says he acts in commercials for a living and yet shows us his Stern HUO pins and talks about his collection of cars.

[koolmoecraig]

Wait, I don't get it.  What's funny about that?

[koolmoecraig]

He's the same guy who says he acts in commercials for a living and yet shows us his Stern HUO pins and talks about his collection of cars.

What does that mean?  That commercials don't pay enough for that?  Oh contrare monfrare.  Plus, my Newport and Polara are only worth about $5000-$8000 each.

Don't hate the playa

[AtomSmasher]

Wait, I don't get it.  What's funny about that?

Well first off, you said the "no replacement for displacement" mentality is the "exact reason" domestics are doing poorly, even though the vast majority of their cars are not performance vehicles.  Just look at the mustang or when the camero was around, for every v8 sold, they would sell 3-4 v6 versions.  Or look at the total number of vehicles available with v8's, only a couple in each of the big three (excluding trucks), the vast majority of their cars are 4cyl or 6cyl.  That mentality has very little or possibly nothing at all to do with why they're doing poorly.  I bet that if you were to go do a survey and ask the random people difference between buying a Ford and buying a Honda, that the vast majority would say reliability.  Hondas are known to run forever, domestic cars are not.

Then you go and compare the Cobalt to the S2000, a $20000 quick passenger car similar to the civic compared to a $30000 roadster.  Gee, I wonder which one would have better performace    Then you dismiss GM's $30000 roadster as primitive instead of comparing to the S2000 probably because you know the solstice has superior performance and handling.

And then you also again try to defend Toyota in NASCAR when no one is saying they're going to do poorly.  They're car will be pretty much the same as every other car in nascar, its the driver that makes the biggest difference.

[koolmoecraig]

Yeah, comparing a Cobalt to and S2000 was a stretch.  How about we compare the Honda that is it's direct competition, the Civic Si.  197hp naturally aspirated.  Cobalt 200hp SUPERCHARGED.  Let's not even talk about the level of refinement and resale value.  It's not even close.  You already mentioned Hondas superior quality so we have that covered.

The Solstice has better performance and handling than an S2000.  Come onnnnnn.  I'll give you straight line speed because of the TURBO advantage(slight) but handling is not even close.  The Solstice understeers like a pig.  The S2000 is completely balanced which is the mark of all great sports cars.  It's not just about ultimate straight line speed.  It is the combined package.  The gear ratios in the GXP Solstice are so poorly matched that it virtually takes the fun out of the car.  The S2000 is a true sports car.  The Solstice GPX is more like a two seat mini muscle car.

Here is one more nugget for you to chew on.  The S2000 came out 7 YEARS before the Solstice and has remained basically unchanged.  Such was the quality and advancement of the engineering.  A 7 year old model that can whip that Solstice on a track and gives up maybe 15% to straight line acceleration.

I'll stick by that primitive comment.

[AtomSmasher]

Like I said, you are a funny man.  I'm not going to continue to prove you wrong over and over again because I know there is no changing your mind that modern domestic cars are junk.  I'll just say that you grossly underestimate the Solstice and that the quality issue is no longer an issue, its now an image problem that will take time for the uninformed public to realize is no longer accurate.

[koolmoecraig]

I know the quality has gotten better but I am not wrong on this point.  In fact, I'm never wrong on any point

I am a Chrysler guy at heart and I would love for them to make something new that I would actually want to buy. 
I hope they make that Demon actually...

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/02/12/dodge-demon-concept-will-debut-in-geneva/

[AtomSmasher]

I hope they make that Demon actually...

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/02/12/dodge-demon-concept-will-debut-in-geneva/

We can agree on that point at least 

[AtomSmasher]

The new Dodge Challenger and Chevy Camero look promising too, but you probably don't agree on this point since they both have v8 engines with 425hp.   

[koolmoecraig]

Yeah I love the Challenger but $50k for the Hemi? Jeesh.

[AtomSmasher]

Yeah I love the Challenger but $50k for the Hemi? Jeesh.

the msrp is $50K   

I had no idea, I guess I can scratch that car off my list

[koolmoecraig]

I'm sure you'll be able to get one with a Mitsubishi V6 for cheaper

[tommy]

That challenger is sweet. Too bad Dodge had to go and ruin the good name of the charger and make it look like an everyday average dodge though. The Challenger looks like the classic.

[koolmoecraig]

I think the Chargers are pretty cool.  RWD and a V8.

Remember the FWD Omni based Chargers from the 80's?

http://www.kevinsdodgesite.homestead.com/files/1987SC2.jpg

[tommy]

Oh yeah the new charger is still cool because its RWD and has a V8, but they could have made it look alot better and not just a plain new modern car. It has no flare, nothing to stand out like it should.

[boykster]

I really really really really wanted to like the solstice when it came out...so much so that I was on the waiting list to get one of the first 1000 cars delivered to the states.  when the first one landed in WA state, the dealer let all of us on the waiting list check it out and take a short test drive.....ugh.  Cheap interior, erratic gaps on body panels, rattles in the dash and door panels, etc.   I sold my reservation (for $500) and bought a Lexus IS250.

[koolmoecraig]

I hear ya.  Don't worry, GM will take about 5 years to get it right then promptly cancel production.

[shardian]

Oh yeah the new charger is still cool because its RWD and has a V8, but they could have made it look alot better and not just a plain new modern car. It has no flare, nothing to stand out like it should.

The new charger is very roomy inside. Looking at it's body style, one would assume it would be cramped as hell. After riding in one, I liked it very much. It's too bad that Dodge cars are only reliable up to 50k or so.

[Havok]

I hear ya.  Don't worry, GM will take about 5 years to get it right then promptly cancel production.

Ha - you're so right there...

[koolmoecraig]

Oh yeah the new charger is still cool because its RWD and has a V8, but they could have made it look alot better and not just a plain new modern car. It has no flare, nothing to stand out like it should.

The new charger is very roomy inside. Looking at it's body style, one would assume it would be cramped as hell. After riding in one, I liked it very much. It's too bad that Dodge cars are only reliable up to 50k or so.

That I don't believe at all.  Most of the underpinnings on that car are last generation Mercedes-Benz E-Class.  And quality has been really good on those cars.

[ChadTower]

It's too bad that Dodge cars are only reliable up to 50k or so.

Is that figure miles or price?   

[boykster]

It will be interesting to see how Chrysler adjusts to new ownership.  In all honestly, Daimler's ownership certainly played a big role in their product quality coming up over the past decade.  I hope the new ownership group continues the trend and even improves more....

[pointdablame]

Yeah I love the Challenger but $50k for the Hemi? Jeesh.

Most people put the starting price for the smaller 5.7 HEMI at around $35k. There was talk about a V6 in 2008 as well, but it's looking less likely.  Nothing is set yet, but I doubt that the R/T will go for $50k (not taking into account the very real possibility of ridiculous dealer markups).

Now the SRT8 (scheduled for 2009 with the 6.1 HEMI or maybe even the 392 crate motor) will hover around the $50k mark, and the V6 if it happens may hit $31k or so

I doubt very much that the 2008 Challenger will be $50k MSRP though.  In fact, I'd put money on it being at least $10k under that (not including dealer markups)