now that's a car

[leapinlew]

Lets remember where we are children...


Heres a car

[patrickl]

No way, THIS is a car

[Havok]

I have a seriously upgraded Trans Am... suspension, brake and engine mods...

 

And yes, it was an Evo, and yes he was trying. Cute sound those little turbos make - but still a lawn mower engine. Don't get me wrong - I didn't leave him in the dust, but I beat him, albeit barely, but did suprise the crap out of him...

A Mitsubishi lancer Evo has a 0-60 time of between 4 and 5 seconds. A Trans Am does 0-60 in over 7 seconds? You either have a seriously upgraded Trans Am, or the Evo wasn't an Evo (or the Evo wasn't trying)

I had an Audi TT. Not really a fast car by todays standards, but even in that I never had any problems with the muscle cars I came up against.

[koolmoecraig]

You can sneeze on a V8 and give it tons of power.  There isn't really anything impressive about it from a tech stand point.  It's a big honkin' motor.  Cams, carb and exhaust and you are probably up 100hp.  You can't really beat the feeling of that rush of torque though.

143hp per liter in a stock EVO is impressive as hell.  It will spank 99% of everything on the road not only in a straight line but around the turns too.  The fact that it stops on a dime essentially gives it more horsepower as well(you can carry your speed later into a turn). Lay off the power and you'll see around 25mpg too.  How's the mileage on your T/A? Under 10mpg at full throttle?  I bet that's fun at $3.50 a gallon.

[Havok]

$2.93 a gallon here, and yeah the mileage sucks, but I live\work\play within a 13 mile radius, so no big deal...

Haven't met a ricer yet that can take me...

 

[koolmoecraig]

I haven't had anyone in ANY car able to keep up with me down Mulholland in my Miata.

[AtomSmasher]

It's generally pretty stupid and unsafe to race down public streets, I have done it occasionally on a highway with no one else around (*edit*except the person I'm racing of course), but I usually save my racing for the local drag strip.  And yes the EVO is impressive (and stupid looking), but theres no replacement for displacement 

[shardian]

143hp per liter in a stock EVO is impressive as hell.  It will spank 99% of everything on the road not only in a straight line but around the turns too.  The fact that it stops on a dime essentially gives it more horsepower as well(you can carry your speed later into a turn). Lay off the power and you'll see around 25mpg too.  How's the mileage on your T/A? Under 10mpg at full throttle?  I bet that's fun at $3.50 a gallon.

A honda S2000 has the highest NATURALLY ASPIRATED HP to displacement ratio out there at ~125HP. Saying you get 143/per out of a twin turbo is the same as bragging about 300hp in a souped V8.

Having said that, a Canary Yellow S2000 is my dream car. That thing is engineering and symmetry bliss ( not to mention the big, red, shiny start button...I like buttons!).

As to Firebirds/trans Am's, I have seen many photos of a Pontiac twisted or torn into two pieces. I personally won't own a Pontiac for that reason. Now the 2001 loaded trans Am that my brother in law had would stick to the road like glue. The 80's models would throw you all over the road unless the suspension was modified or extra large tires were added.

[koolmoecraig]

EVO has 1 turbo.

I've never seen a twin-turbo 4cyl.

[koolmoecraig]

S2000 is a sweet ride but the lack of any sort of torque makes it a tiring ride.  You have to rap the sucker out to 9000 rpm on every shift to feel any power.

Not that that's a bad thing when you wanna have fun but during the daily grind it sucks.

[boykster]

but theres no replacement for displacement 

sure there is.  the engines used in F1 cars get anywhere from 700-900hp out of 2.4L and are normally aspirated.  Of course they rev to 19000(!!!!) rpm

probably not an ideal road car engine though 

[koolmoecraig]

You can install those tasty S2000 start buttons on any car.

[boykster]

hey, what happened to the uber sweet Nissan Pulsar with the hinged door?

 


Those WERE designed as modular cars....

[koolmoecraig]

They'll be back.  I forgot to delete the plate.

[boykster]

They'll be back.  I forgot to delete the plate.

ah, good call....

[pointdablame]

Cute sound those little turbos make - but still a lawn mower engine.

 

[ahofle]

I have a seriously upgraded Trans Am... suspension, brake and engine mods...

 

And yes, it was an Evo, and yes he was trying. Cute sound those little turbos make - but still a lawn mower engine. Don't get me wrong - I didn't leave him in the dust, but I beat him, albeit barely, but did suprise the crap out of him...

So you're saying you barely beat a lawn mower engine car with your heavily modified V8 Trans Am? 

[koolmoecraig]

That's exactly what he is saying.

The "no replacement for displacement" mentality is the reason the US auto industry is headed right down the gutter.

There is this red-necked bias against the Japanese by these hicks with dem der big 'ol V8 muscle cars.  I don't watch NASCAR but I cannot wait til Toyota starts handing the domestics their asses.

The US has no answer for the Hybrids or for powerfully efficient 4cylinders.  GM's best response is the Korean-built Chevy Aveo.  God help us.

As Lee Iacocca once said, "Lead, follow or get out of the way.  They sure as hell aren't leading any more.

[billf]

I don't watch NASCAR but I cannot wait til Toyota starts handing the domestics their asses.

Toyota needs to first start making it into races before any handing of asses.  Toyota has no wins in NASCAR at this point.  Granted, Ford only has 3 wins and Dodge with 2, so there not too far behind two of the major American car manufacturers.  Chevrolet is cleaning up so far this year in NASCAR with 16 wins.

[AtomSmasher]

That's exactly what he is saying.

The "no replacement for displacement" mentality is the reason the US auto industry is headed right down the gutter.

There is this red-necked bias against the Japanese by these hicks with dem der big 'ol V8 muscle cars.  I don't watch NASCAR but I cannot wait til Toyota starts handing the domestics their asses.

The US has no answer for the Hybrids or for powerfully efficient 4cylinders.  GM's best response is the Korean-built Chevy Aveo.  God help us.

As Lee Iacocca once said, "Lead, follow or get out of the way.  They sure as hell aren't leading any more.

Enjoy your miata with its giant aluminum spoiler that you need for "traction"   

I guess you really don't know too much about NASCAR because all of the engines are exactly the same.  In order for Toyota to start winning, they'll need to get some better drivers.  (No I don't watch NASCAR either, so for all I know they could already have a good driver)

Also, apparently you haven't paid attention in a few years because GM has a number of hybrid vehicles available and is about to launch a test run of fuel cell cars.

[koolmoecraig]

My Miata doesnt have enough power to lose traction.  It's a perfectly balanced sports car. 

[shardian]

I guess you really don't know too much about NASCAR because all of the engines are exactly the same.  In order for Toyota to start winning, they'll need to get some better drivers.  (No I don't watch NASCAR either, so for all I know they could already have a good driver)

The engines in Nascar are definitely not all the same. Ford uses a Ford engine, Chevy uses a Chevy engine, etc. Then each team has full reign on tweaking for different races and tracks. NASCAR sets guidelines for the engines that must be followed STRICTLY. There is just a small amount of design wiggle room truth be told, but in high performance engines of that caliber, a small amount of difference can add up to alot on the track.

[Havok]

I have a seriously upgraded Trans Am... suspension, brake and engine mods...

 

And yes, it was an Evo, and yes he was trying. Cute sound those little turbos make - but still a lawn mower engine. Don't get me wrong - I didn't leave him in the dust, but I beat him, albeit barely, but did suprise the crap out of him...

So you're saying you barely beat a lawn mower engine car with your heavily modified V8 Trans Am? 

Yep - because my car weighs 1,000 lbs more. Slap that weight in an Evo, and see how quick it is. Besides, I'm faster. Period.

The "no replacement for displacement" mentality is the reason the US auto industry is headed right down the gutter.

There is this red-necked bias against the Japanese by these hicks with dem der big 'ol V8 muscle cars.  I don't watch NASCAR but I cannot wait til Toyota starts handing the domestics their asses.

There is no replacement for displacement. Anything you do to your lawn mower, if I do the same - I get more power. You lose. And, as far as the hick comment - I'm a white collar worker in the Northeast - I'm about as far from a redneck as they get. I just like American musclecars...

As to Firebirds/trans Am's, I have seen many photos of a Pontiac twisted or torn into two pieces. I personally won't own a Pontiac for that reason.

Those photos of twisted Firebirds are because you get retarded young kids with a powerful car - that can happen to anything they drive...

And Miatas are little dinky matchbox cars!

 

[polaris]

$2.93 a gallon here, and yeah the mileage sucks, but I live\work\play within a 13 mile radius, so no big deal...

Haven't met a ricer yet that can take me...

 

---daisies--- im sure its near $20 a gallon over in the uk

[AtomSmasher]

I guess you really don't know too much about NASCAR because all of the engines are exactly the same.  In order for Toyota to start winning, they'll need to get some better drivers.  (No I don't watch NASCAR either, so for all I know they could already have a good driver)

The engines in Nascar are definitely not all the same. Ford uses a Ford engine, Chevy uses a Chevy engine, etc. Then each team has full reign on tweaking for different races and tracks. NASCAR sets guidelines for the engines that must be followed STRICTLY. There is just a small amount of design wiggle room truth be told, but in high performance engines of that caliber, a small amount of difference can add up to alot on the track.

The engines are made by different companies, but I'm pretty sure they are all the same type and style of engine and are essentially the same.  My point is that Toyota won't be able to come into NASCAR and blow away the competition because they have a significantly superior designed engine, it will be essentially the same as every other engine.  The design that gets the most power and while following the guidelines has already been found, so every car follows the same design.

[patrickl]

There is no replacement for displacement. Anything you do to your lawn mower, if I do the same - I get more power. You lose.

Isn't it harder to get higher revs on a V8 than on a "lawn mower engine".

In Formula 1 they get the same power from a V8 as they did from a V10 because they can make it rev a lot faster.

[Havok]

There is no replacement for displacement. Anything you do to your lawn mower, if I do the same - I get more power. You lose.

Isn't it harder to get higher revs on a V8 than on a "lawn mower engine".

In Formula 1 they get the same power from a V8 as they did from a V10 because they can make it rev a lot faster.

For a street car that is exactly what you don't want - high rpms. I make all my power and torque right off the line, in the 2000 - 3500 rpm range. It's much more "streetable" that way. For a true race car, yes high rpm's are the way to go. It's very easy to get more horsepower to a V8 - just get more air into the engine. With a higher air density, you can introduce more fuel into the combustion chamber, and make a more powerful explosion to increase the output of the engine.

One thing that is nice about such a tried and true combination such as the pushrod V8 design, is that it has been around for decades, and the design flaws have already been worked out. Someone mentioned that they are low tech - which can't be further from the truth. There is just as much high tech involved with designing more efficient components as the latest vehicles. Properly maintained and responsibly driven, I would wager that a V8 engine would outlast a comparable power output turbo, just due to the extra strain involved with generating a higher output from a smaller powerplant.

** Edit **

Note to self: Self - you are spending waaaay too much time in EE...

[shardian]

There is no replacement for displacement. Anything you do to your lawn mower, if I do the same - I get more power. You lose.

Isn't it harder to get higher revs on a V8 than on a "lawn mower engine".

In Formula 1 they get the same power from a V8 as they did from a V10 because they can make it rev a lot faster.

For a street car that is exactly what you don't want - high rpms. I make all my power and torque right off the line, in the 2000 - 3500 rpm range. It's much more "streetable" that way. For a true race car, yes high rpm's are the way to go. It's very easy to get more horsepower to a V8 - just get more air into the engine. With a higher air density, you can introduce more fuel into the combustion chamber, and make a more powerful explosion to increase the output of the engine.

Do you even know what a turbo charger is? I mean seriously, you are saying that to increase power in a v8 muscle car you just increase the air pushed into the engine. That is what a turbo does! A supercharger is normally used on v-8 muscle cars and guess what, it does the same thing too.

[patrickl]

You just said that your extremely souped up V8 had trouble with basically a standard V4 with turbo. Isn't the biggest part of the weight disadvantage you suffer from the engine?

That the newer V4 engines use a combination of fuel injection and turbo (and more valves). This improves both torque and horse power. Of course you could do that with a V8, but they don't. they just use the outdated technology which is struggling to keep up with a modern 4 cylinder engine.

The beauty of a modern engine is that you can rev high for a sprint or just drive normally and get 2 or 4 times the mileage of one of those old V8s.

[shardian]

The beauty of a modern engine is that you can rev high for a sprint or just drive normally and get 2 or 4 times the mileage of one of those old V8s.

Which is one reason that people still buy American cars with bigger engines - V-Tech, Z-tech...whatever they wish to call it. I'll simplify it with "power on demand" cylinder controls.

[ChadTower]

I want a Tacoma sized pickup that can do 40mpg.  Someone build that instead.

[boykster]

You just said that your extremely souped up V8 had trouble with basically a standard V4 with turbo. Isn't the biggest part of the weight disadvantage you suffer from the engine?

Exactly!  and not just the engine, but the drivetrain to support the extra power, the heavier chassis to support the engine, etc.

I just about spit coffee on my monitor when I read "Slap that weight in an Evo, and see how quick it is."  Um, isn't the point that the Evo is designed with weight and power to weight ratio in mind?  You don't need overkill HP and torque if the car is properly designed, and it will STILL be quick. 

I'm not a muscle car "hater" but seriously, to dismiss smaller, lighter, faster types of cars as 'toys', thats just juvenile.  And the miata is hardly a "matchbox" car; it is probably the closest contemporary representation of the truest definition of a classic sports car:  open top, 2 seats, balanced handling, and enough power to be fun to drive.

Sure, power is fun, but after you've eaten through your tires driving back and forth along the straightest road you can find, sports car guys will still be tearing it up on twisty roads and will also be able to afford to fill their gas tank.

 

[Havok]

Do you even know what a turbo charger is? I mean seriously, you are saying that to increase power in a v8 muscle car you just increase the air pushed into the engine. That is what a turbo does! A supercharger is normally used on v-8 muscle cars and guess what, it does the same thing too.

Yes, I do - I took automotive tech at a local community college part time when I was a "kid" because I liked to work on my car. I was addressing patrickl's question about rpms to gain power - not turbos\superchargers. And guess what? You don't need a turbo or supercharger to increase airflow\power to the engine. It can also be accomplished with a higher flow intake manifold and carb or fuel injection unit. Not to mention blueprinting, porting and polishing, stoichiometric coefficient, etc...

[shardian]

And guess what? You don't need a turbo or supercharger to increase airflow\power to the engine. It can also be accomplished with a higher flow intake manifold and carb or fuel injection unit. Not to mention blueprinting, porting and polishing, stoichiometric coefficient, etc...

Oh I know all of that. I was just trying to figure out if you knew all of that.

Blueprinting...I actually had to look that one up because I had never heard that phrase before. Round these parts, we call that "doing the job right".

[patrickl]

 

[AtomSmasher]

I'm not a muscle car "hater" but seriously, to dismiss smaller, lighter, faster types of cars as 'toys', thats just juvenile.  And the miata is hardly a "matchbox" car; it is probably the closest contemporary representation of the truest definition of a classic sports car:  open top, 2 seats, balanced handling, and enough power to be fun to drive.

I do agree with you somewhat on these points, I believe to was koolmoecraig who started with the anti muscle car and domestic car postings, although his arguments are a few years old and no longer relevant (he didn't seem to know about newer cars like the 200hp 4cyl chevy cobalt or the the 260hp 4cyl pontiac solstice).

There are excellent 4cyl and 6cyl cars out there (Audi makes some of my favorites), but I find a rear wheel drive, high horsepower car more fun to drive then all of ones with smaller engines (at least with the cars in my price range).  And larger engines are a lot easier and cheaper to add horsepower to.  It's fairly difficult to get another 100hp out of an Evo, but its not very difficult to add 150hp to a stock v8 (just add a turbo or supercharger to name one easy way).

[koolmoecraig]

The "There is no replacement for displacement" mentality is the EXACT reason why the US auto industry is in the toilet.  If Detroit would have embraced the concept of developing higher horsepower, efficient 4 cylinder engine technology they would been better suited for shift in consumer interest to more efficient vehicles.  Instead they do what they have always done(GM anyways) rebadge a primitive design and dump it for cheap(Aveo).

Just this month for the first time in history imports outsold domestics.  Even accounting for the big 3's shady "fleet sales" number padding.

How far off are we from seeing Toyota actually buying a controlling interest in GM?  Don't laugh.  It could easily happen.

As far as Toyota and NASCAR...

I remember in the 90's when Honda tried to enter Indy Car racing everyone laughed.  Bobby Rahals Honda powered car even failed to qualify for the Indy 500! Within 3 years of that they had captured the championship and had an 80% win ratio.

It will happen in NASCAR.

[koolmoecraig]

I love old American cars.  I own a 1969 Chrysler Newport with a 383 and a 1970 Dodge Polara with the same engine.  You wanna talk gas guzzling?

I'm just saying that it is sad that everyone kicks back with this primitive mentality.  Now the imports are kicking our asses because of it.

200 hp in a Cobalt.  That's a supercharged 2.0 4cylinder.  Hondas 2.2's are putting out 237hp NATURALLY ASPIRATED!  Not to mention the fact that the Cobalt is a piece that looks like a 90's era Cavalier and has about the same horrendous build quality and resale value.

The Solstice is pretty cool but still primitive.

[SLICK19]

This is one of the most horrible things I have ever seen. 
I think I am going to be sick.....

[AtomSmasher]

 

I was wrong about you koolmoecraig, you actually are a funny guy.