Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark

[IntruderAlert]

Suppose the following:

1) - Ultracade is actually based on M.A.M.E. and includes M.A.M.E. code
2) - In order to hide this fact, David R. Foley builds some serious copy protection into his systems and begins selling his arcade machines.
3) - Ultracade begins to grow and actually make a nice profit
4) - David R. Foley becomes even more concerned over the possibility of M.A.M.E. code being discovered in his arcade machines and the resulting possibility of his being sued by the original M.A.M.E. creators for his unauthorized use of M.A.M.E. code.
5) - David R. Foley sees an opportunity for leverage against the M.A.M.E. creators in that the M.A.M.E. name and logo have never been trademarked and quickly files for the M.A.M.E. trademark himself.
6) - David R. Foley agrees to return ownership of the M.A.M.E. name and logo to the original M.A.M.E. creators in exchange for the rights to use M.A.M.E. code in all of his arcade machines and thus avoids the possibility of ever being sued by the M.A.M.E. creators

To make myself a little more clear on my line of thought..
Perhaps this entire controversy that David R. Foley is creating over the M.A.M.E. cabs being sold is only a smokescreen to cover his real intentions of aquiring the rights to use M.A.M.E. code in all of his arcade machines and thus avoid the possibility of ever being sued by the M.A.M.E. creators

[Fat_Trucker]

Why would he have overtly started trying to earn royalties from it if he only wanted to protect himself from litigation?.

I think his drive to attack MAME was probably related to him being ordered to cease use of Namco? roms last year. From his point of view he's running a legitimate business and has people pulling licences and preventing him from using software while he can see the MAME community or more particularly some 3rd party vendors using them or trading on the ability to use them with impugnity.

I think it was plain frustration and the desire for some kind of abstract payback that motivated the attack on the TM.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

4) - David R. Foley becomes even more concerned over the possibility of M.A.M.E. code being discovered in his arcade machines...

You may be on to something. Sounds compelling. I just found a PDF Manual for Ultracade machines (http://www.happcontrols.com/images/pdf/ultracade_manual.pdf), and there was something that caught my eye:

"By accepting and operating an ULTRACADE system, the owner/operator of each ULTRACADE system agrees to abide by all copyrights and trademarks and not to attempt to decompile or modify the operating system in anyway."

Is this clause standard? Or *is* he hiding something? Given your assumption above, it does sound fishy.


mrC

[GGKoul]

4) - David R. Foley becomes even more concerned over the possibility of M.A.M.E. code being discovered in his arcade machines...

You may be on to something. Sounds compelling. I just found a PDF Manual for Ultracade machines, and there was something that caught my eye: http://www.happcontrols.com/images/pdf/ultracade_manual.pdf (PDF)

Is this clause standard? Or *is* he hiding something? Given your assumption above, it does sound fishy.

"By accepting and operating an ULTRACADE system, the owner/operator of each ULTRACADE system agrees to abide by all copyrights and trademarks and not to attempt to decompile or modify the operating system in anyway."

mrC

Ok, I think it's time to call in a hacker/programmer.   As that doesn't seem like a standard clause...

[Chris]

Ok, I think it's time to call in a hacker/programmer.

[IntruderAlert]

Why would he have overtly started trying to earn royalties from it if he only wanted to protect himself from litigation?.

Because if he has been using M.A.M.E. code all along he can't just come out and say his real intentions or else he would be sued.
The attack on the M.A.M.E. cab builders would be a perfect cover-up

[SirPoonga]

Given the fact that the Capcom emulator that is included on their CD's is based on MAME.

[Thenasty]

I lke where this is going. Crack that ULTRATHIEF software/os and see if it contains MAME code and also DISTRIBUTE it in ABEM like crazy and we use his F.E and put any roms/game we want or find out the UNLOCK codes for the extra games thats locked and post that also.

[SirPoonga]

I lke where this is going. Crack that ULTRATHIEF software/os and see if it contains MAME code and also DISTRIBUTE it in ABEM like crazy and we use his F.E and put any roms/game we want or find out the UNLOCK codes for the extra games thats locked and post that also.

Actually, that would be bad.  We'd be no better than DF himself.

Anyway, why would you want it after this anyway

[Chris]

I lke where this is going. Crack that ULTRATHIEF software/os and see if it contains MAME code and also DISTRIBUTE it in ABEM like crazy and we use his F.E and put any roms/game we want or find out the UNLOCK codes for the extra games thats locked and post that also.

Actually, that would be bad.

[Thenasty]

ok, I guess we don't need to sink to D.F level.

[IntruderAlert]

It would be interesting to know if David R. Foley has approached Aaron or Haze about getting the rights to use M.A.M.E. code

[daywane]

Oh I don't know...
how can our conversations hurt the case with Mame.
we are just user's of Mame and on a differant web sight.
Nothing really involved with the TM and Mame case. Heck its not even in Court or anything.
I have been a firm believer of eye for eye, He might have went after Mame which in turn went after my hobbie
I for one would love to find some way to bust this guy.
we have not had a gag order or anything.
as far as the agreement to DF. systems hard drive, we could track down a used one and take it apart , We never agreed to it.

[daywane]

It would be interesting to know if David R. Foley has approached Aaron or Haze about getting the rights to use M.A.M.E. code

I am a bit confussed. How can anyone use Mame in a commercial  product?
It is stated that can not be done?

[Shape D.]

It would be interesting to know if David R. Foley has approached Aaron or Haze about getting the rights to use M.A.M.E. code

I am a bit confussed. How can anyone use Mame in a commercial  product?
It is stated that can not be done?

It can be done. But your not supposed to. And I would reccomend not doing it.

[IntruderAlert]

It would be interesting to know if David R. Foley has approached Aaron or Haze about getting the rights to use M.A.M.E. code

I am a bit confussed. How can anyone use Mame in a commercial  product?
It is stated that can not be done?

It can be done. But your not supposed to. And I would reccomend not doing it.

Yes, but it may be too late for David R. Foley

[daywane]

seems like some can and some can not 

[Crazy Cooter]

I believe in two eyes for one...

[Santoro]

As much as I'd like to see Foley out of business (I joked earlier about how cool it would be if his system was cracked and distributed,) there are US and possibly other laws about circumventing copy protection.   I wouldn't suggest doing it. 

[IntruderAlert]

4) - David R. Foley becomes even more concerned over the possibility of M.A.M.E. code being discovered in his arcade machines...

You may be on to something. Sounds compelling. I just found a PDF Manual for Ultracade machines (http://www.happcontrols.com/images/pdf/ultracade_manual.pdf), and there was something that caught my eye:

"By accepting and operating an ULTRACADE system, the owner/operator of each ULTRACADE system agrees to abide by all copyrights and trademarks and not to attempt to decompile or modify the operating system in anyway."

Is this clause standard? Or *is* he hiding something? Given your assumption above, it does sound fishy.


mrC

Yes, I believe that it is very possible that David R. Foley has been hiding behind that user agreement and has gambled that it would protect him from anyone discovering M.A.M.E. code in his machines OS.
Now with the leverage of the M.A.M.E. trademark he would hope to get official rights to the M.A.M.E. code and avoid the possibility of being sued by the M.A.M.E. creators.

[SirPoonga]

<<and not to attempt to decompile or modify the operating system>>

You don;t need to decompile the OS to figure out what's on the drive.  You just need to be able to read the file system.

[Crazy Cooter]

Nothing wrong with innocent investigations.

[Patent Doc]

Here's a good read:

http://www.copyright.gov/1201/

ROMs are legal - if you own the original equipment. I point you to this paragraph:

"(3) Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and which require the original media or hardware as a condition of access. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace."

There are grey areas, to be sure, however it can certainly be argued that they are obsolete (sigh!)

And my two cents about iROMS - not me, not now, not ever.

Star ROMs - You bet!   

No offense Havok, but did you actually read what this was in reference to?  People keep on quoting this as some admission by the US copyright office that things like MAME roms would be leagal since the games they were originally sold on are "obsolete."  However, this provision provides an exception to anit circumvention legislation so individuals who purchased the software and thus have a lisence to use, can circumvent whatever they need in order to continue to use the software. For example, the program had to be run on one of those old 12" hard disks shaped like a donut from the 1970s.  Well, the US copyright Office has determined that it is not right to make an individual purchase the program again because a)the company making the software no longer supports that format or b)the drives no longer are being manufactured and the buyers drive broke.  The buyer of the software can now make or have made a replacement to use on current equipment.  Note that to do this, you must still own a legal copy of the software (roms, or whatever).  The only thing this possibly provides support for is those people who purchased a PCB and want to use it using current technology.  However, even this last scenario is in a grey area since the courts haven't ruled on it.

[APFelon]

Well, since Arcade Legends is an arcade game, and MAME wants to document (emulate) all arcade hardware, and there is speculation that Ultracade may use MAME code...

Can MAME emulate itself?

APf

[SirPoonga]

Here's a good read:

http://www.copyright.gov/1201/

ROMs are legal - if you own the original equipment. I point you to this paragraph:

"(3) Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and which require the original media or hardware as a condition of access. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace."

There are grey areas, to be sure, however it can certainly be argued that they are obsolete (sigh!)

And my two cents about iROMS - not me, not now, not ever.

Star ROMs - You bet!

[GGKoul]

Cracking Ultracade would be like cracking anyother new game out there.

[daywane]

Cracking Ultracade would be like cracking anyother new game out there.

I don't think we can crack it and toss it out on the internet for down load but, I do think we could buy a used one and open it up and post our findings.
Why used. Because I would not have agreed to the licences agreement.
I did not get it from the company so I am not bind-ed by that agreement

as far as the Roms for Mame or any of the old consoles that is no longer put out there. You can read what you want into the law. Its to unclear because it has not been proven in court as of yet

Atari corp had no problems with people opening the 800S and probing them. They even published books on how to's and even sent reps to the big user groups and gave demos and answered questions. I know because I was there. we would program many 2600 style games into the old 800's with basic and turbo basic

I personally think since I own most every old system out there and houndreds of the carts,cards,floppies and even hard drives (Atari black box) I can down load the Roms and play them on modern equipment. I am sick of buying a system and 2 years later the big companies want me to toss out all my games and buy there new system for big bucks and buy there games at even more big bucks.

This is covered in the fair use law.

[Santoro]

Cracking Ultracade would be like cracking anyother new game out there.

I don't think we can crack it and toss it out on the internet for down load but, I do think we could buy a used one and open it up and post our findings.
Why used. Because I would not have agreed to the licences agreement.
I did not get it from the company so I am not bind-ed by that agreement

I'd get yourself a really good lawyer before banking on that theory.  Sounds weak at best. 

[GGKoul]

Cracking Ultracade would be like cracking anyother new game out there.

I don't think we can crack it and toss it out on the internet for down load but, I do think we could buy a used one and open it up and post our findings.
Why used. Because I would not have agreed to the licences agreement.
I did not get it from the company so I am not bind-ed by that agreement

I'd get yourself a really good lawyer before banking on that theory.

[daywane]

Cracking Ultracade would be like cracking anyother new game out there.

I don't think we can crack it and toss it out on the internet for down load but, I do think we could buy a used one and open it up and post our findings.
Why used. Because I would not have agreed to the licences agreement.
I did not get it from the company so I am not bind-ed by that agreement

I'd get yourself a really good lawyer before banking on that theory.

[Thenasty]

I also think that Ultracade, they are not popular to todays youth. I saw one in Sportworld and a month later, its taken out.

[scatter]

Just to answer s couple of q's I've seen since my last post. First, I'm an arcade operator (it's why I would even have an ultracade) The long and short of it is none of the arcade ops like the ultracade *at all* there is almost no feature that any one of us likes. From game selection to the herky jerky action of menu selection. So there's a bit of background.

As to JOS. I wrote the guy a while back to request a copy of the system and he said it was not available for any amount. *shrug* So whatever. As I said the info on the HD was easily readable by putting in a PC and viewing on a byte level with a hex editor. I no longer have the system but it would seem that we forgot two cd's when we shipped it out (seriously we just forgot about them) and they still reside in my desk here. They both have crappy inkjet labels that say ultracade system installation (one is v3.12 and one is v3.23) but it would seem that the HD needs to be initialized because it goes nowhere when you boot the CD. It just says "JoshuaOS Loading"

I've long thought there must be MAME code in it but a cursory inspection of the files doesn't show any tale-tale signs. Also it is a fact that UC used to have all the NAMCO games in them on a don't ask don't tell policy until DF got a little note from NAMCO sometime last summer ('04) which he sent out to the Ops.

Just a case of a very very black pot calling all the kettles black to me.

b

P.S. I love the fact that the spell checker suggests Utlrasuede for Ultracade...

[mr.Curmudgeon]

I no longer have the system but it would seem that we forgot two cd's when we shipped it out (seriously we just forgot about them) and they still reside in my desk here.

What are the legalities of "examining" the OS for the inclusion of M.A.M.E. code? Reverse engineering the OS in order to distribute and/or alter it is obviously not allowed. But, couldn't an individual, someone on the M.A.M.E. development team, peek at the code (legally) in order to see if they spot any of their own code? Isn't there enough reason for suspicion?

I know that there was a similar situation with CherryOS (Mac emu software), when they were accused of building on top of the free open-sourced, PearPC mac emu.

It might be an issue of "just cause" since, to quote the linked article, "Sebastian Ballas, PearPC's lead developer, said a screenshot of CherryOS shows a variable named "SPIRO MULTIMAX 3000," a nonsensical term Ballas claims to have invented for use in PearPC."

I have NO SYMPATHY whatsoever for mr. Foley, as the sad bastard has brought this on himself. We *need* to figure out how to make absolutely sure he isn't using M.A.M.E code. Because how horribly ironic would it be, were he to continue destroying the community using the very software that was used to create it in the first place.

mr.C

[Patent Doc]

The way I read it you are both not quite right.

The title of the page answers what it is about
"Rulemaking on Exemptions from Prohibition on Circumvention of Technological Measures that Control Access to Copyrighted Works"

This means breaking the security on obsolete technology is legal.

[quarterback]

As to JOS. I wrote the guy a while back to request a copy of the system and he said it was not available for any amount. *shrug* So whatever.

That's just wierd, considering the website offers it up.   That is, unless JoshuaOS is basically ONLY used by Ultracade.  The JOS people are only 66 miles from Unltracade central, so who knows the real story.

[RayB]

I've long thought there must be MAME code in it but a cursory inspection of the files doesn't show any tale-tale signs. Also it is a fact that UC used to have all the NAMCO games in them on a don't ask don't tell policy until DF got a little note from NAMCO sometime last summer ('04) which he sent out to the Ops.

Just a case of a very very black pot calling all the kettles black to me.

Scatter,
Hope to see you post some more. It's good to have a perspective of a commercial game operator.

[Santoro]

are you saying I can not buy a hard drive off ebay and use software to find out what was on that drive. why not? I bought it off a individual not a companies.
especially if the drive was broken and I went through it to fix it.

I am not claiming to be an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I am pretty sure the US DCMA prohibits bypassing mechanisms such as encryption and keys intended to protect software, music, etc.

I don't think it takes into account how you acquired the content to begin with.

[IntruderAlert]

P.S. I love the fact that the spell checker suggests Ultrasuede for Ultracade...

..and by the way.. Matthew Sweet ROCKS!!! 
ULTRASUEDE

[GGKoul]

I never knew Matthew Sweet released ULTRASUEDE.   Hmm....

[SirPoonga]

This feels like a mini SCO vs IBM thing