Flying to Nevada from Illinois with a gun

[Dartful Dodger]

I flew from O'Hare to Las Vegas last week, and my friends and I brought some guns with us.

You can see a big difference in the Vegas and Chicago attitude when it comes to guns.

I am assuming the security in Chicago is trained to ask to see if the gun is unloaded, but they probably don

[JoyMonkey]

Dumb question; you're talking about checked luggage, not carry-on, right?

[Zakk]

I had the same problem with the mortar and ICBM I took with me on vacation.

[Sephroth57]

wtf u guys doing with all these guns anyway lol

i plan on getting a handgun once i get a house but u got all this fancy ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, heh

[ChadTower]

I make my C4 bombs in the shape of a gun and paint it black.  That way, when they visually verify, I can keep the remote in my carry on. 

[JoyMonkey]

Ehhh... Why are you posting this?
It sounds like you're trying to inviting some nice homeland security gentlemen around for coffee or something. 

[fredster]

Try to get into Boston. You'd have armed guards escorting you.

Out west they know what's up.

Did you buy all those out there or were you just forming that milita you always wanted?

[RacerX]

Try to get into Boston. You'd have armed guards escorting you.

Out west they know what's up.

Did you buy all those out there or were you just forming that milita you always wanted?

That's probably because some of the 9/11 terrorist's flights originated in Boston.  I would run a tight ship if I were them, too.

[Paul Olson]

Nevada is good, but not all western states.  California doesn't seem to believe anyone should own a gun.  I wouldn't even try to check a gun if I was going to California.  They don't just ban assault weapons, they ban anything that looks like an assault weapon.

Just one of many reasons I moved from California to Nevada.

Paul

[Apollo]

Sorry for this but you guys in the U.S. crack me up. WTF do you need guns for unless you are going hunting or are a target shooter? It's totally ridiculous how you all think wandering round the country with hand guns and ammo is normal. And Sephroth I'd do some research on how many gun shot injuries and deaths are the caused by the homeowners handgun and how many victims are the homeowners family or friends.
You guys live in lala land you really do. And you wonder why people in other countries think everyone in the US is crazy.
I know you're not all crazy but really you guys don't do yourselves any favours, and don't start quoting the constitution at me either because that "right to maintain an armed militia" thing or whatever it says is so out of date it's just funny.
Now I guess I'm going to get flamed let's see how many Americans can put up a decent argument without getting nasty.

[Zakk]

Silly, those guns are for self-defense!  What happens if a bunny is "coming right at you!"

Stan: I don't want to shoot the bunny.
Uncle Jimbo: No nephew of mine is going to be a tree hugger.
Cartman: Yeah, hippie. Go back to Woodstock if you don't want to shoot anything.


Uncle Jimbo: So you see, we have to kill animals, or else they'll die.

[fredster]

It's totally ridiculous how you all think wandering round the country with hand guns and ammo is normal

In the US, we still have rights.

You guys live in lala land you really do.

And it's nice here. I like it. 

that "right to maintain an armed militia" thing or whatever it says is so out of date it's just funny.

  Sure it is man, sure it is. Whatever. I'll make a deal with you. You live there, and I'll live here and we'll have a good time where we are at.

We don't have to argue about it. I don't think we have to say a word about it. I don't care if you don't like it. It really is none of your business if you don't live here now is it?

[GGKoul]

Silly, those guns are for self-defense!

[Apollo]

Well it does affect other countries actually, it breeds a mentality that says if it's broken or it's not going my way then I'll get my gun and #*$! you up. So the US's "gun" culture has a direct affect on me as a citizen living outside the US. What other country would vote back in as president a guy who went to war with a country for no reason ( well other than they beat up his dad and they've got a lot of oil ). Take off the blinkers you're living in a fantasy land.
Guns kill people..........say it really slowly if ya can't get it the first time.

[Rocky]

I used to live in a very rural area

[fredster]

Apollo, I thought we had a deal.

You don't care about our guns, and I don't care what strange and bizare mating rituals you and your tribe do, but you don't have to watch US TV anymore.

Why is that any discussion always turns to the President? I don't know.

[Apollo]

You can't dish me I'm from New Zealand.
Any way I was just ranting, peace all.

[Bones]

Guns. I see a gun and I am seeing something I have seen maybe only 5 times in my life. I don't like them, I don't even like the look of them. 

I think anyone who carries a gun on the street should be jailed for a long time, a bloody long time.

Sorry guys, it's probably just to do with our different cultures but I see no need for it. I would hate the thought my children are playing in a park and people are carrying a weapon close by. I would hate to walk down the street and be conscious that people have them.

Rural people and sporting gun owners are different.

[Kremmit]

Apollo, guns don't kill people, any more than hammers drive nails.  Of course, hammers do make the job a lot easier, but do you really think crooks and killers can't do you in without a gun if they have to? 

Guns are  just tools, machines, devices.  I could drive a nail with the but of a gun, or I could kill a man with a hammer.  The tool is not to blame for the actions of it's user.  To make guns a scapegoat for the evil that men do is a fallacy.   The entirety of recorded human history up until the invention of gunpowder shows that people have had no trouble killing people with clubs, rocks, knives, arrows, poison, etc. 

I don't know the legal situation regarding guns in NZ- but your post makes me think they're illegal there.  A lot of people think they should be here, too.  The thing is, on an small (compared to the US, anyway) island, it's not totally impossible to round up all or almost all of the guns and take them out of circulation, and then keep new ones out.  Here, that's just not really an option.  There have always been guns here, since before the time of our revolution.  Hence, at any given time, there have been too many for the government to hope to find them all.  It's impractical to think that the owners will all agree to surrender them, either.  When you've got as many people as we do, you simply cannot get even close to unanimous support of ANYTHING.  And with the zillion miles of border we have, it's impractical to think we could keep new guns out.  I imagine that the criminal element in NZ has guns.  I imagine that if YOU wanted one bad enough, you could get your hands on one.  If that's true in NZ, it's even more true here.  So why try to fight the tide?  We CAN'T get rid of guns.  Once you accept that, you have to accept that making guns illegal will only ensure that criminals with guns go un-opposed, and law-abiding citizens are deprived of a fun and useful tool.  Plus, If we're ever need to fight the government (don't laugh folks, it's only been 230 years), we'll need 'em. 

Just so we're clear here, I don't carry a gun.  I'm not a nut who thinks we should overthrow the government. 

I'd also like to point out, that everybody in America doesn't wander about the country with a pistol in his belt.  Most Americans don't have a gun.  Most of the ones who do have one don't carry it.  TV and movies paint a very different picture from reality on the subject of guns, the same as they do on everything else.  Reading your and BrokenBones' posts makes me realize what harm our entertainment industry is doing our image in the world at large.  Look, there aren't guys doing Jackie Chan stunts in the streets wherever you go in China, and there aren't dudes with machine guns under their overcoat walking around here, either.  I have never in my life walked down the street and worried that maybe the guy behind me had a gun.  We're mostly just regular people here, same as everywhere else. 

[HaRuMaN]

word

[menace]

I lived in chicago for a few years and most folks I worked with didn't have guns or feel the need for them--one guy collected hand guns (he had 2 small boys so it made me nervous) but he seemed ok with it.  I personally don't think everyone should be allowed to carry a gun as it makes it way too easy to just shoot someone who's in your way as opposed to finding another option.  But like you say they are way to prevalent to be banned outright as that would just be a waste of time.  i personally agree with chris rock's outlook--give everyone a gun but charge $5000 per bullet, that way if you want someone dead, you really have to think about it cause that sh$t gets expensive after awhile...

[DrewKaree]

Just a guess, since I haven't seen a reply from DD, but it sounds as if this were a vacation based around the use of the guns for recreation, or they were heading to a gun show out in Vegas. 

Us funny 'mercans

I've got you beat, DD.  I went through Reagan International last year, and since the X-ray machine was down (and presently being worked on at that very moment) and the replacement for it was "not working too good neither, so he's gonna fix that one when he's done", we were asked to take our bags over to the table where we had to open them and they would be checked.  A lift-up of two corners of stuff in our suitcase and short perusal of our carry-ons (none of those crack investigative measures would have unearthed a handgun if we were carrying one ) and we were on our way.

I mean, Reagan International doesn't even have that many flights going through it!  Shuffle a few more personnel on over, and they could have sped the process up to do a GOOD search!

[fredster]

The sales group of my company were real comedians. You know, they would start the practical joke war. Before 9/11, they made a cardboard cut-out of a handgun and wrapped it aluminum foil. They tucked into my friend

[DrewKaree]

I used to live in a very rural area  (2 traffic lights in the whole county).  Everyone owned guns... not just 1 or 2, but several rifles (for hunting), hand guns were also popular.  Also, no one locked their doors and crime was extremely low. We all knew how to use them and what they were for.


I carried a handgun with me all day today and I didn't shoot anyone 

Yah, but you're a minister, so you only have to hit them with a little brimstone or browbeat them to death about religion , so I know you would only use your gun for sporting purposes. 

Heck, I wouldn't even require you to license yours.....mebbe I'll become a minister mahsef!

[DrewKaree]

The sales group of my company were real comedians. You know, they would start the practical joke war. Before 9/11, they made a cardboard cut-out of a handgun and wrapped it aluminum foil. They tucked into my friend

[tmasman]

Guns kill people...

I know it's a bit cliche, but no they don't...
A gun is an inanimate object that can't do anything without the expressed use by a person.

I actually don't even own a gun right now, but I'd love to have a couple for target shooting, etc...

If guns didn't exist people would find some other means of threatening & killing people.  Why do people always try to point the blame to everything but today's screwed up society? It's not the internet, it's not the access to guns, it's not somebody elses fault!  It's your own dad-gum fault for not raising your children right & filling the world with selfish idiots who don't have a clue about how to be a useful member of society!!!

No...  ;)I didn't have any pent up rage concerning any of this...

[JackTucky]

" I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it"

[DrewKaree]

You can't handle the truth!  Are you....talkin' ta me?  We have half a pack of cigarettes, a full tank of gas, it's dark out, and we're wearing sunglasses.  Hit it!

We're doing "famous movie lines" for $400, right Alex?

[JackTucky]

USA = Provider of freedom.

Other countries = , living under it.

Art "USA! USA!"

 

[fredster]

If guns kill people, pencils make mistakes.

I agree with JackTucky, don't even bother to explain it to people from other countries.  There is no point in even trying. I don't care if other countries don't like it.

Have them complain to the UN. 

[Hoagie_one]

every Iraqi citizen is allowed to own one assault rifle.

Hows that for rights?

[DrewKaree]

Why naturally! 

How ridiculous would you feel at the wedding if you DIDN'T show up with it to fire off into the air in celebration?

The shame could follow you for years!

[Dartful Dodger]

Sorry guys, it's probably just to do with our different cultures but I see no need for it. I would hate the thought my children are playing in a park and people are carrying a weapon close by. I would hate to walk down the street and be conscious that people have them.

That's the point! You are not conscious that people have them so you walk down the street with your head in your a.. the sand.

[shmokes]

The "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is retarded.  Every time I hear or read that I vomit all over myself. 

Guns kill people.  The technicality you rely on to suggest otherwise is absurd. 

Now, the fact that guns kill people doesn't necessarily mean they should be outlawed.  Penicillin kills people.  But if your kid took his penicillin and found out the hard way that he had a severe allergy to it I don't think you would tell people that your son killed himself when asked how he died.

The necessity for, or virtue, or constitutionality of gun ownership doesn't hinge on whether or not guns kill people.  Y'all gun nuts have a lot of compelling arguments on your side.  It boggles my mind that you fall back on the totally lameass, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people," bit so often.  What are you suggesting?  Should we outlaw people? 

I vomited twice just writing this post.

[fredster]

The "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is retarded.  Every time I hear or read that I vomit all over myself. 

guns don't kill people, people kill people
guns don't kill people, people kill people
(get a mop Shmokes)
guns don't kill people, people kill people
guns don't kill people, people kill people
(get an IV Shmokes)
guns don't kill people, people kill people...

[Grasshopper]

every Iraqi citizen is allowed to own one assault rifle.

Hows that for rights?

Not the best example for advocates of gun ownership to use.

[SeaMonkey]

Sorry for this but you guys in the U.S. crack me up. WTF do you need guns for unless you are going hunting or are a target shooter? It's totally ridiculous how you all think wandering round the country with hand guns and ammo is normal. And Sephroth I'd do some research on how many gun shot injuries and deaths are the caused by the homeowners handgun and how many victims are the homeowners family or friends.
You guys live in lala land you really do. And you wonder why people in other countries think everyone in the US is crazy.
I know you're not all crazy but really you guys don't do yourselves any favours, and don't start quoting the constitution at me either because that "right to maintain an armed militia" thing or whatever it says is so out of date it's just funny.
Now I guess I'm going to get flamed let's see how many Americans can put up a decent argument without getting nasty.

I stopped a rape in progress with my gun, and my sister changed her mind about them for ever after.

911 records a lot of deaths.

You will notice that accadental shootings happen more often to the uneducated, than by members of the NRA.

Brits kill less people with hands and feet, per capita, than Americans, would that be because Brits HAVE less hands and feet...per capita...?
Culture is at the root of the violence issue in America.
It is never a jewish internet professional driving around looking to "gat" another jewish internet professional...for example.

The number of guns per citizens is exactly why Brits never have to come here, and rescue us from the Germans....and that was its intent all along.

[Bones]

Sorry guys, it's probably just to do with our different cultures but I see no need for it. I would hate the thought my children are playing in a park and people are carrying a weapon close by. I would hate to walk down the street and be conscious that people have them.

That's the point! You are not conscious that people have them so you walk down the street with your head in your a.. the sand.

[Sephroth57]

so should we get rid of knives, swords, chemicals, blunt heavy objects, while were at it?

[SeaMonkey]

so should we get rid of knives, swords, chemicals, blunt heavy objects, while were at it?

EXACTLY!

When our Constitution was written, our founding fathers had NO IDEA how far knife techknowledgy would advance.

Ginsu knives can cut through a cinder block, and still slice tomatoes paper thin. Do we really need that kind of cutting power as individuals?

[Zakk]

On the flip side of this if everybody was conscious of the fact that anyone could be carrying, everyone would be very nice to each other.

Hey, no offense meant, but if that's your idea of a perfect society: Everyone eyeing each other hoping that they don't get a bullet in the brain for not saying "thank you" when someone holds open a door?

And yes, I'm in another country, so I know you don't give a flying frep about what I think, but still... that comment seems really out of whack.

My idea is more: "Jeez, you just never know when some beautiful girl is just going to up and flash you.

[Bones]

so should we get rid of knives, swords, chemicals, blunt heavy objects, while were at it?

Well within reason, why not?

Or get to heart of the problem and ask why your society feels so compelled to protect itself from each other.

This ain't a shot (pun intended) at the yanks. I have a baseball but under my bed and anybody who enters my home and threatens my family is not going to wake up again.

But there is a difference between this and the relaxed attitude towards guns. If this genuinely makes your country a better place to live and I have failed to understand the bigger picture, I can deal with being wrong.

[Grasshopper]

The number of guns per citizens is exactly why Brits never have to come here, and rescue us from the Germans....and that was its intent all along.

The reason why the US is unlikely to be invaded any time soon has nothing whatsoever to do with gun ownership. The USA obviously now has powerful army but it's also protected by geography. The USA is a vast country and thus difficult to occupy. It is surrounded by large oceans to the east and west, and friendly (and relatively weak) neighbours to the north and south, and is thus difficult to invade.

An armed militia would be no match for a professional army. Look at the example of Iraq given earlier. Most adult male Iraqis own a gun yet Iraq was invaded with ridiculous ease. And I haven't even begun to talk about nuclear weapons.

And prior to the war all those guns in circulation didn't protect the ordinary citizens from Saddam Hussain and his henchmen.

[SeaMonkey]

Or get to heart of the problem and ask why your society feels so compelled to protect itself from each other.

Exactly. Countries could ask themselves the same questions...and get the same answers.

Why would Jews in pre-WWII germany want to hold on to their guns, in spite of the new gun control laws? That makes no sense!

But there is a difference between this and the relaxed attitude towards guns. If this genuinely makes your country a better place to live and I have failed to understand the bigger picture, I can deal with being wrong.

I assure you, my attitude toward gun ownership is anything but relaxed.

[SeaMonkey]

The reason why the US is unlikely to be invaded any time soon has nothing whatsoever to do with gun ownership. The USA obviously now has powerful army but it's also protected by geography. The USA is a vast country and thus difficult to occupy. It is surrounded by large oceans to the east and west, and friendly (and relatively weak) neighbours to the north and south, and is thus difficult to invade.

An armed militia would be no match for a professional army. Look at the example of Iraq given earlier. Most adult male Iraqis own a gun yet Iraq was invaded with ridiculous ease. And I haven't even begun to talk about nuclear weapons.

And prior to the war all those guns in circulation didn't protect the ordinary citizens from Saddam Hussain and his henchmen

Iraq is the size of Illinois.
Apples and cranberries.

The U.S. has seen fighting on its soil, and civilian arms has always had an impact. The sheer number of our guns is greater than any five standing armies in the world, combined.

[Dartful Dodger]

This thread was started to point out the firearm ignorance in our airports' security.

If you live outside of the USA you don

[Bones]

This thread was started to point out the firearm ignorance in our airports' security.

If you live outside of the USA you don

[DrewKaree]

The "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is retarded.  Every time I hear or read that I vomit all over myself. 

Guns kill people.  The technicality you rely on to suggest otherwise is absurd. 

Are you deliberately being obtuse by saying it's absurd to suggest otherwise?

Guns kill no one, unless thrown hard enough and precisely struck to inflict death.


Get ahold of yourself, the vomiting has made you light-headed and you don't have your faculties about you....other than at work.

BULLETS kill people.  The technicality YOU rely on to suggest otherwise is absurd.


This message has been brought to you by the Dale Carnegie Outreach Course of Greater BYOAC.

[DrewKaree]

Ginsu knives can cut through a cinder block, and still slice tomatoes paper thin. Do we really need that kind of cutting power as individuals?

As a connoisseur of paper-thin tomato slices, not only do I believe we need that kind of cutting power, I believe it to be a right of every free man, woman, and child in America, and will defend it to the death....with my Ronco Pocket Fisherman.

[SeaMonkey]

And Sephroth I'd do some research on how many gun shot injuries and deaths are the caused by the homeowners handgun and how many victims are the homeowners family or friends.

It is in fact interesting research. Swimming pools and bathtubs kill more children than guns kill PEOPLE, 5 to 1, in my state.

So if this were REALLY about safety, then we would be talking about water control.

In 1996, nearly 1,000 children ages 14 and under drowned. Children ages 4 and under accounted for nearly half of these deaths.
Each year, an estimated 5,000 children ages 14 and under are hospitalized due to near-drowning.
Near-drowning have high case fatality rates. Fifteen percent of children admitted for near-drowning die in the hospital. As many as 20 percent of near-drowning survivors suffer severe, permanent neurological disability.
For every child who drowns, an additional four are hospitalized for near-drowning; and for every hospital admission, approximately four children are treated in hospital emergency rooms.
A swimming pool is 14 times more likely than a motor vehicle to be involved in the death of a child age 4 and under.

Guns kill less people than cars, per unit. That's odd, since that is the primary function of the gun....not the car.

So again....we are not talking about safety, or we would be talking about car control.

There is a psychological recoil that some people have that makes them think an inanimate object can be evil, by its very existance. Other people have that same fear of clowns, in spite of the fact that there has only been a single documented case of Clown-Canibilism.

[DrewKaree]

There is a psychological recoil that some people have that makes them think an inanimate object can be evil, by its very existance. Other people have that same fear of clowns, in spite of the fact that there has only been a single documented case of Clown-Canibilism.

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH CLOWNS!  THE CLOWNS ARE COMING, THE CLOWNS ARE COMING, EVERYBODY RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN!


So then you know why people don't eat clowns, right?

They taste funny.

[Magnet_Eye]

Originally, when the right to bear arms was created, it was due to invasion by brits and so on, so we could all fight back and retain the country we were trying to build. we have the country now, we don't need militias.

Anyway, I am an american but I agree with Apollo to some extent. The gun thing is out of control here. I don't see why a guy needs to own like 50 or 100 guns of all varities. It's ridiculous.

Also, the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" thing...it's true in some ways, but i don't think it works in the case of say a 5 year old gets a hold of the gun and shoots himself or a friend. That is not a case of a person intentionally killing someone. Blame it on the "lack of training" of the gun owner? If the gun wasn't there to begin with, no one would have died.

Fact is

GUNS WERE CREATED TO KILL PEOPLE!

So,  since they were created to kill people, I guess you could say they do.


Finally, I'd like to see a study of many people have died unnecessarily from guns compared to the amount of people that actually "defended" themselves with guns.  I bet that more people have been killed unnecessarily/accidentally than the number of people that have actually defended themselves from life threatening situations.

[SeaMonkey]

Finally, I'd like to see a study of many people have died unnecessarily from guns compared to the amount of people that actually "defended" themselves with guns.

[Magnet_Eye]

And Sephroth I'd do some research on how many gun shot injuries and deaths are the caused by the homeowners handgun and how many victims are the homeowners family or friends.

It is in fact interesting research. Swimming pools and bathtubs kill more children than guns kill PEOPLE, 5 to 1, in my state.

So if this were REALLY about safety, then we would be talking about water control.

In 1996, nearly 1,000 children ages 14 and under drowned. Children ages 4 and under accounted for nearly half of these deaths.
Each year, an estimated 5,000 children ages 14 and under are hospitalized due to near-drowning.
Near-drowning have high case fatality rates. Fifteen percent of children admitted for near-drowning die in the hospital. As many as 20 percent of near-drowning survivors suffer severe, permanent neurological disability.
For every child who drowns, an additional four are hospitalized for near-drowning; and for every hospital admission, approximately four children are treated in hospital emergency rooms.
A swimming pool is 14 times more likely than a motor vehicle to be involved in the death of a child age 4 and under.

Guns kill less people than cars, per unit. That's odd, since that is the primary function of the gun....not the car.

So again....we are not talking about safety, or we would be talking about car control.

There is a psychological recoil that some people have that makes them think an inanimate object can be evil, by its very existance. Other people have that same fear of clowns, in spite of the fact that there has only been a single documented case of Clown-Canibilism.

Problem with this is that swimming pools, bathtubs, cars, etc. were not CREATED to kill. These are accidents.

Guns WERE CREATED TO KILL.

That is their purpose. That is a fact.

[SeaMonkey]

Problem with this is that swimming pools, bathtubs, cars, etc. were not CREATED to kill. These are accidents.

Guns WERE CREATED TO KILL.

That is their purpose. That is a fact.

That is true. But they do it rarely, it would seem. Otherwise, they wouldn't be so effective at protecting my family.
 There are more dangerous things out there for you to be afraid of, if you need something to be afraid of.
Ted Kennedy's CAR has killed more people than ANY of my guns.

[shmokes]

BULLETS kill people.  The technicality YOU rely on to suggest otherwise is absurd.

No.....that's simply another technicality that is almost identical to the first technicality I talked about.  Unless, of course, you're talking about shoving a 22 bullet into a straw and then throwing it at the wall to fire it or something.

I'd also like to point out that a person who claims to be a connoiseur of paper-thin tomato slices yet believes that ginsu knives are worth the paper-thin tomato slices they can allegedly cut cannot be trusted.  What is your postition man?  Do you believe ginsu knives are truly capable of said feat?

And Seamonky....there's a lot of faulty logic in your bathtub and swimming pool post.  You really ought to go back and read that.  I'm not saying that you have nothing valid to say, but your argument needs some serious work.

[Magnet_Eye]

Finally, I'd like to see a study of many people have died unnecessarily from guns compared to the amount of people that actually "defended" themselves with guns.  I bet that more people have been killed unnecessarily/accidentally than the number of people that have actually defended themselves from life threatening situations.

Your wish is my command

This article actually quotes multiple studies.

More than one study claims that there are 2.73 million defensive gun users. I am in that statistic. I stopped a man from raping my sister.

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/kleck2.html

I'm glad you stopped a rape. But, was is really necesarry to have a gun to do so? I don't have guns, but if i saw some dude attacking a woman, I'd jump on him and beat his ass. I don't need a gun to intervene.

PS- the info in that link is 10 or more years old.

[DrewKaree]

Guns WERE CREATED TO KILL.

That is their purpose. That is a fact.

Patently false.  Guns were created for people to USE them as ANOTHER means by which to defend themselves, and to do so easier than the old method.  Sometimes, in doing so, people died.

Also, you completely ignored the fact that guns were NOT created to kill, BULLETS were.  Guns are merely the delivery method which has proved most effective, as throwing them at people has very little consequence other than to REALLY piss people off, at which point, they would stab you.

[Magnet_Eye]

Guns WERE CREATED TO KILL.

That is their purpose. That is a fact.

Patently false.  Guns were created for people to USE them as ANOTHER means by which to defend themselves, and to do so easier than the old method.  Sometimes, in doing so, people died.

Also, you completely ignored the fact that guns were NOT created to kill, BULLETS were.  Guns are merely the delivery method which has proved most effective, as throwing them at people has very little consequence other than to REALLY piss people off, at which point, they would stab you.

Wow. You have got to be kidding me. "Bullets kill people"? LOl. Bullets are part of the gun. They go hand in hand. One is useless without the other.

So if i get run over by a car, I guess the tires killed me, not the car or the driver, right? lol

[shmokes]

Guns WERE CREATED TO KILL.

That is their purpose. That is a fact.

Patently false.  Guns were created for people to USE them as ANOTHER means by which to defend themselves, and to do so easier than the old method.  Sometimes, in doing so, people died.

Also, you completely ignored the fact that guns were NOT created to kill, BULLETS were.  Guns are merely the delivery method which has proved most effective, as throwing them at people has very little consequence other than to REALLY piss people off, at which point, they would stab you.

Keck..........Keck.......


Vomit

[DrewKaree]

I'd also like to point out that a person who claims to be a connoiseur of paper-thin tomato slices yet believes that ginsu knives are worth the paper-thin tomato slices they can allegedly cut cannot be trusted.  What is your postition man?  Do you believe ginsu knives are truly capable of said feat?

I saw it on TV, so it has to be true.  TV wouldn't lie to me, unless it was tuned to CBS.

[SeaMonkey]

I'm glad you stopped a rape. But, was is really necesarry to have a gun to do so? I don't have guns, but if i saw some dude attacking a woman, I'd jump on him and beat his ass. I don't need a gun to intervene.

PS- the info in that link is 10 or more years old.

Dudes, not dude.

And thanks, my sister was pretty happy about it too.

So in 10 years you think the accadent ratio went up...or what? I don't really follow that last bit.

[SeaMonkey]

And Seamonky....there's a lot of faulty logic in your bathtub and swimming pool post.

[Magnet_Eye]

I'm glad you stopped a rape. But, was is really necesarry to have a gun to do so? I don't have guns, but if i saw some dude attacking a woman, I'd jump on him and beat his ass. I don't need a gun to intervene.

PS- the info in that link is 10 or more years old.

Dudes, not dude.

And thanks, my sister was pretty happy about it too.

So in 10 years you think the accadent ratio went up...or what? I don't really follow that last bit.

No, but i can't rely on old data, nor data that looks unprofessional in manner. Meaning, look at that site. Last update in 1997. C'mon, there has to be more up-to-date accurate data out there. NRA website or what?

Not to be rude or anything, but how did you just happen to be with your sister with a gun when dudes were trying to rape her. sounds like a very strange incident.

[DrewKaree]

Wow. You have got to be kidding me. "Bullets kill people"? LOl. Bullets are part of the gun. They go hand in hand. One is useless without the other.

Again, patently false.  Go into a gun store.  Purchase a gun.  Open the chamber/magazine.  Take a picture of it, and post it here.  You will have demonstrated that bullets are NOT, in fact, part of the gun.  Bullets have to be purchased SEPARATELY from the bullet-delivery system (gun, for short).

They do NOT go hand in hand, they go hand to magazine, and magazine to gun.

You are EXACTLY right that one is useless without the other, but the fact remains that the gun does not do the killing.  The bullet is what does the damage that causes death, ergo, the BULLET, Watson, is what kills people.

If Roger Clemens were to throw a bullet at you, he could probably kill you with it, eliminating the need for the gun.  The gun would not have killed you, the BULLET would have killed you. 

Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

Someone get shmokes a bucket, he's got some kind of bug, and bad.

So if i get run over by a car, I guess the tires killed me, not the car or the driver, right? lol

TERRIBLE analogy.  The tires are, in fact, a part of the car, unlike the bullet, HOWEVER, the tires can be removed, slid over you and your torso so you couldn't move your arms, have you tossed into a lake, and since you couldn't move your arms, the tires, in fact, would have killed you in that case.

[SeaMonkey]

Not to be rude or anything, but how did you just happen to be with your sister with a gun when dudes were trying to rape her. sounds like a very strange incident.

**blink**

Yeah, we don't do that kind of thing every day.

1988 Indiana State Fair.
I had my nephews playing games in the Midway. She went back to the car first. They served beer at the fair at the time.

www.jpfo.org has lots of good articles if you want something more professional.  (Jews for the preservation of firearm ownership)

[shmokes]

Don't get too bent Seamonkey.  Here is a single example.  There is a lot of this sort of thing in there:

It is in fact interesting research. Swimming pools and bathtubs kill more children than guns kill PEOPLE, 5 to 1, in my state.

This is, presumably a true premise.  But you are leaving out important information that may require a different conclusion than the one you are coming to.  Like, perhaps, is the ratio of bathtubs to guns in your state higher than 5 to 1 (The answer to that question is yes.  It is WAY WAY WAY higher)? 

[Magnet_Eye]

Don't get too bent Seamonkey.  Here is a single example.  There is a lot of this sort of thing in there:

It is in fact interesting research. Swimming pools and bathtubs kill more children than guns kill PEOPLE, 5 to 1, in my state.

This is, presumably a true premise.  But you are leaving out important information that may require a different conclusion than the one you are coming to.  Like, perhaps, is the ratio of bathtubs to guns in your state higher than 5 to 1 (The answer to that question is yes.  It is WAY WAY WAY higher)? 

yep. it's like when people tell me that flying is safe. "More people die from car crashes then airplane crashes each year." Yeah, well look at the number of planes vs. the number of cars. duh. put the same number of planes as there are cars in the sky, then we'll see.

[SeaMonkey]

Don't get too bent Seamonkey.

[shmokes]

Drew,

I'm starting to think you actually believe what you are saying is relevant or useful, rather than just a funny way to get under people's skin.

If you are in fact serious I think I can clear this up.  I think this is just a.....what do they call them......failure to communicate.  For the remainder of this discussion (and any future threads started by DD), when someone refers to a gun killing somebody, be charitable.  It is our way of saying that the gun played a central role in the cause of that person's death.

I'm starting to vomit blood.  You're becoming dangerous to me.  Now, I know that technically it would be the vomiting that killed me, but only someone in serious need of an enema would not understand what people were talking about when they said that I was killed by DrewKaree.

[DrewKaree]

Now, I know that technically it would be the vomiting that killed me,

Don't be silly.  The loss of blood would be what killed you.

Unless I could throw a bullet at you hard enough.

[shmokes]

Oddly the numbers don't match up in places like L.A. and New York, where they have stronger gun control. Stronger gun control seems to follow more people getting shot and less people drowning.

Holy cow...this thread is like a chat room, not a message board.

But, what I mean, is that if there are, say, 500 bathtubs to every gun, you would have to have 500 deaths by bathtub to for every death by gun for those two items to be equally dangerous, all things being equal.  And then, when you consider that all things are not equal and that those bathtubs get used on a daily basis, whereas guns spend most of their time (hopefully) locked up, out of reach of children, the differences become even more pronounced.  Even swimming pools, which don't get used nearly as often as bathtubs (though you did mention you live in Arizona so they probably come close), are affected similarly.  Kids play in swimming pools all the time.  They are allowed and encouraged to do this.  Kids don't play with guns NEARLY as often.  If kids play with swimming pools five times as often as they play with guns, then a 5 to 1 ratio for swimming pool deaths to gun deaths would be expected if the two items were equally dangerous.  Presumably kids play in swimming pools more often than guns at a ratio far greater than 5 to 1.

If this is true, once again, your statistic says exactly the opposite of what you meant for it to say.  It says that swimming pools and bathtubs are FAR safer than guns.

[SeaMonkey]

Far safer, but they kill far more people.

That's really odd.

If guns are killing so few people, compared to other things, my only point is, there are causes of death that need to be addressed, before taking away my guns. My guns are locked up, as would be my clowns, if I owned them, with the exception of the one on me now. (Gun not clown)

Your point is taken. These other things are more dangerous ONLY by virtue of sheer volume. They are more common. So a 15,000 gallon pool is less dangerous than 15,000 gallons of guns.

True enough. But the fact remains that my pool can kill a neighborhood kid more readily than my guns, even when I am not at home.

[shmokes]

I'd also like to point out that a person who claims to be a connoiseur of paper-thin tomato slices yet believes that ginsu knives are worth the paper-thin tomato slices they can allegedly cut cannot be trusted.  What is your postition man?  Do you believe ginsu knives are truly capable of said feat?

I saw it on TV, so it has to be true.  TV wouldn't lie to me, unless it was tuned to CBS.

SUCKER

So.....Drew.....You walked right into my trap.  You believe that Ginsu knives can cut cut paper-thin tomatoes, eh?

Well....I've got news for you, buddy.

Ginsu knives don't cut tomatoes.  People cut tomatoes.

mwahahaHAHAHAHAHAHA

[SeaMonkey]

I'd also like to point out that a person who claims to be a connoiseur of paper-thin tomato slices yet believes that ginsu knives are worth the paper-thin tomato slices they can allegedly cut cannot be trusted.

[fredster]

I have had a gun within 20 feet of me in my house all of my life. I shot my first gun at 4 1/2.  To me they are like screwdrivers. You have a hammer, a screwdriver, and a gun somewhere in your house.

I don't think anybody has to justify having guns to anybody.  I don't think you have to justify having a car, or being able to travel.

Sorry you suckers overseas if you don't have access to firearms. I feel for you.

And it's just like shmokes to bring a knife to a gunfight.

[shmokes]

Far safer, but they kill far more people.

That's really odd.

If guns are killing so few people, compared to other things, my only point is, there are causes of death that need to be addressed, before taking away my guns. My guns are locked up, as would be my clowns, if I owned them, with the exception of the one on me now. (Gun not clown)

I spend more hours with a gun than a car, or water, and yet I have choked on water, and been hit by other cars (twice) and my gun has never choked, killed, hit, anyone. It did scare three guys from Gary Indiana once, but that is a good thing.

I think it's cos we don't just consider the things in a vacuum.  We consider them in more of an overall context, and bathtubs serve so many purposes that we would lose more without them than we would gain.  There are grey areas for things.  For example a friend of mine died from overdosing on Methadone.  But Methadone also saves the lives of Heroin addicts by helping them beat their addiction.  One possible answer is regulating methadone to try to keep it out of the hands of people who have no good reason to have it.

I'm glad you stopped the rape, but anecdotal evidence is pretty weak when you're trying to support something.  A google search for the phrase "raped at gunpoint" (in quotes) turns up 710 hits.  In reality I think that guns are probably neither the primary cause of, or solution to rape.

[DrewKaree]

SUCKER

So.....Drew.....You walked right into my trap.  You believe that Ginsu knives can cut cut paper-thin tomatoes, eh?

Well....I've got news for you, buddy.

Ginsu knives don't cut tomatoes.  People cut tomatoes.

mwahahaHAHAHAHAHAHA

DRAT!  You've foiled me with your evil plot! 

* DrewKaree throws a bullet at shmokes

[shmokes]

**milk out of nose**

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Schmokes, do you drink?
As much as we disagree I think we would still have a great time over some dark beer.

No doubt.  Plus,  I'm much more tolerable in person.  I don't get to spend five minutes composing everything I say before I say it in conversation.  And dark beer is sooo tasty.

And hey....we're already neighbors.  I'm in Utah.  Less than an hour from the Arizona border on I-15.

[DrewKaree]

One possible answer is regulating methadone to try to keep it out of the hands of people who have no good reason to have it.

So methadone is like pot or clowns?

I thought this was about guns and their inability to kill people without bullets or other people.

No doubt.  Plus,  I'm much more tolerable in person.

The vomit would be the thing that killed me....you can rest easy knowing you're off the hook, shmokes...as long as you aren't a fastball pitcher with a handful of bullets.

[SeaMonkey]

I'm glad you stopped the rape, but anecdotal evidence is pretty weak when you're trying to support something.

[shmokes]

The vomit would be the thing that killed me....you can rest easy knowing you're off the hook, shmokes...as long as you aren't a fastball pitcher with a handful of bullets.

See...now that's just gross Drew.  Presumably you are talking about drowning in it.  Or perhaps such violent projectile vomiting that you are killed by the impact.

[shmokes]

Teachers SHOULD NOT have sidearms  LMAO   

[Bones]

I have had a gun within 20 feet of me in my house all of my life. I shot my first gun at 4 1/2.

[SeaMonkey]

St Pauly Girl Dark is a great chaser of Jagermeifter (spelling?)
My Pentacostal wife, would give me the hairy eyeball, however. Perhaps we should meet at the border, and keep it our little secret.

[SeaMonkey]

I have had a gun within 20 feet of me in my house all of my life. I shot my first gun at 4 1/2.

[fredster]

I'm much more tolerable in person.

I can't get over that.

When somebody stops a crime with a gun, it's not news. It doesn't get on the news until somebody gets shot in a crime.

It perpetuates the myth that guns are evil when all that is reported is bad.

If I could put myself in your shoes I believe I could be a gun owner and act in a socially acceptable way. But damn, sitting here right now in my little world I have no motivation to own a gun or even seriously contemplate it.

[SeaMonkey]

I'm much more tolerable in person.

I can't get over that.

When somebody stops a crime with a gun, it's not news. It doesn't get on the news until somebody gets shot in a crime.

It perpetuates the myth that guns are evil when all that is reported is bad.

If I could put myself in your shoes I believe I could be a gun owner and act in a socially acceptable way. But damn, sitting here right now in my little world I have no motivation to own a gun or even seriously contemplate it.

[fredster]

Back when we were truly free, I was in highschool in 75-79 we carried our guns to school in the pickup trucks. I had a gun rack with a .22 in it. It was standard issue.

I had a buck knife on my belt in school. I didn't even think about it as a weapon.

[shmokes]

When somebody stops a crime with a gun, it's not news. It doesn't get on the news until somebody gets shot in a crime.

It perpetuates the myth that guns are evil when all that is reported is bad.

Or maybe it doesn't happen very often.  I'm pretty sure that only a tiny portion of the population packs heat wherever they go.  Most gun owners to not carry them.  Most probably lock them up and hope to never use them or only use them to hunt.  I'm also pretty sure that, generally speaking, people don't get raped in plain sight of other people (or robbed or stabbed or whatever).  Odds are probably extraordinarily low that any crime is going to be thwarted by an armed citizen. 

I think it's your imagination running wild, rather than a lack of interest by the media that's going on here.

[SeaMonkey]

Back when we were truly free, I was in highschool in 75-79 we carried our guns to school in the pickup trucks. I had a gun rack with a .22 in it. It was standard issue.

I had a buck knife on my belt in school. I didn't even think about it as a weapon.

[SeaMonkey]

When somebody stops a crime with a gun, it's not news. It doesn't get on the news until somebody gets shot in a crime.

It perpetuates the myth that guns are evil when all that is reported is bad.

Or maybe it doesn't happen very often.

[shmokes]

Heh...that poor bastard had his career ruined and it turns out he didn't kill her afterall. 

[fredster]

Heh...that poor bastard

Gary Conduit was anything but poor.  Remember that guy? What a joke. At least it pointed up what a tool he was.  I was amazed at his straight face the whole time. Playing around with young women like that. Who'd he think he was? Bill Clinton?

My old neighbor was a heating and air guy. Carried his glock wherever he went. He related a couple of stories where the mere presence of his weapon twarted some would be thieves.  He had to whip it out only once. 

Never made the news. Never made the Statistics.

He called his glock his "American Express" because he didn't leave home without it.

It's great to be an American isn't it?

[SeaMonkey]

He called his glock his "American Express" because he didn't leave home without it.

As long as he didn't use it to make a bank withdrawl.

[Tailgunner]

I flew from O'Hare to Las Vegas last week, and my friends and I brought some guns with us.
*snip*
You can see a big difference in the Vegas and Chicago attitude when it comes to guns.

Heh, this reminds me a lot of an experience I had traveling in the mid 90's at LAX. I'd hate to see what it's like these days.

[DrewKaree]

 

[lucindrea]

wtf u guys doing with all these guns anyway lol

i plan on getting a handgun once i get a house but u got all this fancy <auto-censored>, heh

well if your getting a handgun to protect your home , your much better off getting a shotgun , think of it .. if you were robing a house and someone in the dark pulled out a gun and cocked the hammer and said i have a gun , it just doesn't have the same effect as the sound of a shotgun pump :-) most guys know you will NOT miss with that  ( OK cocking a semi may have a similar sound , but still not as statement making )

[Magnet_Eye]

TERRIBLE analogy.  The tires are, in fact, a part of the car, unlike the bullet, HOWEVER, the tires can be removed, slid over you and your torso so you couldn't move your arms, have you tossed into a lake, and since you couldn't move your arms, the tires, in fact, would have killed you in that case.

You got to be joking. Terrible analogy? and you follow it up with the idea that someone is going to slide tires over my body to kill me? LMAO! HAHHAHAHAHAH!

So, in that sense I could grab a rifle by the barrel, and smash in your face with the butt end. This actually does happen. so there. guns killl people. 

[SeaMonkey]

TERRIBLE analogy.

[fredster]

Lions don't eat people, people eat people. 
(Statisticly. Lion related killings compared to canibilism, per anum.)

That is a startling Statistic.

[tommy]

I just dont get you guys saying guns kill people,are some of you watching alot of dancing gun cartoons ,do you not understand it takes a person with the power to pull the trigger ,the anger the, intent the ,fear the stupid minded not understanding what hes doing or not careing,we have all made similar statements to get the point across,   my car is not going to start up and drive away with out me ,type comment saying nothing happens unless we do it, and i have to agree   end post and prb end convo

-tommy

[DrewKaree]

car keys kill people.

#1 

[SeaMonkey]

Beef kills people.

[Apollo]

Actually if you want to get really pedantic, In every case of death recorded or unrecorded in human history the thing that killed the person was loss of oxygen supply to the brain. In 100% of deaths.
So there.
All this stuff about knives ( and other things ) being banned because they can kill is rubbish. The point is guns are designed specifically for one purpose to dispatch life quickly and easily.
I know a lot of you are talking about how guns aren't a big deal and "I used to have one as a kid" but that is my point exactly. You are so used to the gun culture that you don't understand that most of the rest of the world views you as a bit mental. It maybe normal to you but to most other first world countries it just reinforces the whole "Americans are over weight , gun toting, illiterates". Now I know that that's a generalisation that more often than not isn't true however that's how it appears to a lot of people. I think your media does the U.S. a great disservice with the view of the U.S. that they present to the rest of the world and the citizens of the U.S. should do something about it. Remember most of what we see and read about the States is through your own media companies.

[tommy]

The point is if someone breaks into my house  id like to protect my loved ones ,and if it means he dies or i  die  id  like to determin that

[Gunstar Hero]

Cancer kills people.

And everything causes cancer.

So EVERYTHING kills people!

 

[DrewKaree]

Actually if you want to get really pedantic, In every case of death recorded or unrecorded in human history the thing that killed the person was loss of oxygen supply to the brain. In 100% of deaths.

I see where you're going with this, and for the record, I'm all for banning the removal of oxygen required for breathing.


Gunstar, I don't cause cancer, therefore everything CAN'T kill people.

* DrewKaree throws a bullet at Gunstar to prove his point.

[SeaMonkey]

All this stuff about knives ( and other things ) being banned because they can kill is rubbish. The point is guns are designed specifically for one purpose to dispatch life quickly and easily.

Exactly. How useful would they be if they weren't?

Guns are pretty far down the list of things that cause death.
Statistics show they save life more often than they end life in the U.S.

So in short, we are not talking about our safety, we are talking about YOUR phobia.

[Bones]

I definitely have a gun phobia. There can be no denying this. I also live in fear of heights. In my nightmares I am shot while falling from the top of a high building.

I like crossbows and potato cannons though....

[shmokes]

Perhaps heroin, cocain, crystal meth, etc. should be legalized as well.  Not a single one of those substances is capable of action.  They cannot walk up to me in my sleep and climb down my throat.  Without human action they are perfectly harmless.  Drugs don't kill people, people kill people.

Can y'all not see why I vomit whenever someone uses that argument.  It's assinine.

[Dartful Dodger]

Perhaps heroin, cocain, crystal meth, etc. should be legalized as well.

Perhaps we should give up our freedom of speech as well. Too many people are dieing for speaking up against the norm.  They are only words, if they offend others or if people are afraid of them we'd all be better off without hearing or saying them.

In fact you should start by not posting your nonsense response.

[shmokes]

Speach is regulated.  We do not have absolute freedom of speach.  Drugs are regulated.  Guns are regulated.  All of them should be (speach the least of which, IMO)

I'm pretty sure there are at least 256 shades of grey (a.k.a. reality) between black and white.  You should try hanging out there some time.

And yes, speach kills, and speach that incites someone to commit a crime is illegal, in spite of the constitutional protections. 

And dieing is spelled dying, fyi.  It's quirky, I know.. 

[Sasquatch!]

I have no interest in joining the pro-gun / anti-gun debate, but I just want to point out to DD that the city of Chicago has a total ban on all handguns, so that might be why people got a little fidgety on ya at O'Hare.

[Dartful Dodger]

I have no interest in joining the pro-gun / anti-gun debate, but I just want to point out to DD that the city of Chicago has a total ban on all handguns, so that might be why people got a little fidgety on ya at O'Hare.

My Glock didn't make her fidgety; it was the assault rifle that made her jump. The funny thing about the situation, is that she asked him to show her that it was unloaded. It's not like he just randomly pulled it out of the case.

You can have a hand gun in Chicago, if you owned the handgun before the ban.

[tommy]

Its just like the old saying one person ruins things for all,some people use handguns for bad that doesnt mean ban all guns because of that,some people come on byoac and do harm so ban this forum, i think not ,place blame where it needs to be placed

[SOAPboy]

Sorry for this but you guys in the U.S. crack me up. WTF do you need guns for unless you are going hunting or are a target shooter? It's totally ridiculous how you all think wandering round the country with hand guns and ammo is normal. And Sephroth I'd do some research on how many gun shot injuries and deaths are the caused by the homeowners handgun and how many victims are the homeowners family or friends.
You guys live in lala land you really do. And you wonder why people in other countries think everyone in the US is crazy.
I know you're not all crazy but really you guys don't do yourselves any favours, and don't start quoting the constitution at me either because that "right to maintain an armed militia" thing or whatever it says is so out of date it's just funny.
Now I guess I'm going to get flamed let's see how many Americans can put up a decent argument without getting nasty.

The second the handgun laws here are fully passed, im going out and buying a new glock..

and itll be on me 24/7

[Sasquatch!]

Wait, this thread isn't about the Act-Labs gun??  Hooboy do I feel stupid now!

[fredster]

I don't even know why people have to explain a "right".

We don't have to explain breathing, or justify it. It's a "right".
We don't have to explain voting, it's a "right"
We dont' have to explain any rights, because they are rights.

There is no need to explain them, justify them, or even rationalize them.

We can own firearms. I'm happy about that. I'm happy I can vote. I'm happy I'm an American.

If an American doesn't want to own guns or vote themselves, fine.  That's their choice. Me, I like to do both because it's a right to do so.

You are so used to the gun culture that you don't understand that most of the rest of the world views you as a bit mental. It maybe normal to you but to most other first world countries it just reinforces the whole "Americans are over weight , gun toting, illiterates

My first gut reaction is "so?".  My second take is "who cares?".

I think your media does the U.S. a great disservice with the view of the U.S. that they present to the rest of the world and the citizens of the U.S. should do something about it.

My first gut reaction is "so?".  My second take is "who cares?".

The point is guns are designed specifically for one purpose to dispatch life quickly and easily.

Can't argue with that. Yep, that's what they are for.  That and opening troublesome cans and bottles, and if you are really good, driving nails. But again, My first gut reaction is "so?".  My second take is "who cares?".

[tommy]

Dont be scared its just a picture      is this a proper thing to post on here ?

[xar256]

I don't even know why people have to explain a "right".

We don't have to explain breathing, or justify it. It's a "right".
We don't have to explain voting, it's a "right"
We dont' have to explain any rights, because they are rights.

There is no need to explain them, justify them, or even rationalize them.

Correct me if I'm wrong...Wasn't there also a "right" for certain people to own other people at one point in time?

[Dartful Dodger]

Correct me if I'm wrong...Wasn't there also a "right" for certain people to own other people at one point in time?

[xar256]

That was never a right.

[SeaMonkey]

Correct me if I'm wrong...Wasn't there also a "right" for certain people to own other people at one point in time?

[xar256]

Kinda interesting that when someone feels compelled enough that something is just <like slavery> they can quote rulebooks at you...But when they feel stongly enough that they are right, they can just ignore the other parts of the same rulebook.  <Sorry Seamonkey, you took my bait on that one>

"The right to bear arms openly"
vs.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

There must be an awful lot of 1 person militias out there protecting the State.  <Considering the actual definition of a militia, I don't see a arguement here - I know some will try>.

But I do feel that that amendment could and should have been worded much better to prevent people twisting it around like what has happened over the years.  But that's just me...

Xar256

[SeaMonkey]

I don't ignore the other parts of the rule book.
Maybe you just don't understand the rule book. Let me help you out.
Every man of age was considered the

[DrewKaree]

How did this get away from throwing bullets at people and rolling tires over them onto something like this?

I think I'm going to create a gun that fires rope, or knives. 

THEN you'll all see....yes, then you certainly will see!

[fredster]

Now that you mention it Drew, they do!

When I was a soldier in the Army, I was a gunner in a towed Artillery unit (REDLEGS). We could shoot a 155mm howizter 18-24 miles and hit a target within 50 meters at that range.

Anyway, we have the coolest rounds. We had of course the :
HE round - High explosive.  Kill radius - 50 meters Standard
We had fuses to blow the round up at impact, after impact, or at a time, or near a metal object.

Gas rounds, all kinds of gas rounds. GB, Mustard, etc

We had the White Phosphorus round, shot fire out the back, for burning troops and equipment. 

We had the Flares, lots of different flares.

We had the RAP round, Rocket assisted Projectile with laser guided accuracy.

We had the anti-personnel round, shot fish hook type metal shards out the back.  We have used those a lot in these last two wars.

My favorite, the mine field round.  It would hit the ground and would eject a net with mines out.  Anyone stepping into the net would set off the mines.  The mines would blow on their own after 2 hours.

And we had Nuclear Rounds. They would destroy a zone of 1000 meters x 1000 meters, and damage 3X that.  There are lots of those rounds still around. I never got to fire any, and kinda glad I didn't.  But you can bet if you see our troops with a cannon, they have one or two of those around them somewhere.   Those weapons were used as last resort, and authorized only by the President.

So there is 200 years of technology wrapped up in todays firearms too.

[tommy]

post some pics of your fire arms

[jbox]

C'mon, I'm not the only one who thought that right?

WARNING: Do not try this at home kids, get your parents to do it instead...

[tommy]

Thats creative jbox 

[shmokes]

When I was a soldier in the Army, I was a gunner in a towed Artillery unit (REDLEGS).

I thought you made the deals you had to make in order not to be sent out of the country...

[Otraotaku]

Apollo, guns don't kill people, any more than hammers drive nails.

[Dartful Dodger]

yeah, guns make the job easier too... BANG* your dead... ^.^

"Sir, please stop raping my daughter"
"Excuse, sir, I said please stop raping my daughter"

Dial 9-1-1

"Hello ... Yes I'll wait...."

"Hello, there are some men raping my daughter, could you please send some police"

"Never mind they're done, and they just cut her throat, so just send an ambulance"


Otraotaku, you're right! 
Bang my daughter is safe, is much easier.

Guns don't save people, citizens armed with guns save people.

[fredster]

Of the people I know that are against guns, they have little or no experience with weapons.  They are always from the city. They never understood that guns are a tool in the country.

You have to defend your livestock.  Take care of predatory animals, and occasionally defend your property.  I never had to I'm glad to say.

Of all the people on this post who have a problem with weapons, I notice they are not from the US.

Except Shmokes.  Whom is of age to serve his country.

I thought you made the deals you had to make in order not to be sent out of the country...

For the time I was in active full time duty, I was in the US. Brilliant deal, I was in California. But if there was a war on, there is no deal.   I didn't want to go overseas. 

When I was in the reserves in Gulf War 1 I wasn't called. We were ready to deploy.  Were you in kindergarden then, right? 

[Sasquatch!]

Yeah, so that Act-Labs lightgun, that thing's kind of weird-looking, huh?  What's up with that whole "sci-fi ray gun" thing they're going for?

[shmokes]

When I was a soldier in the Army, I was a gunner in a towed Artillery unit (REDLEGS).

Just clearing things up, Fred.  It sounded as though you were actually being towed...you know....gunning.  Seeing as you've never in your life been off American soil, and it's been quite some time since hostile foreign troops have been inside our borders I wondered what/who exactly you were shooting at and where your unit was being towed  (forgive me if towed means something other than what I am suggesting.  I've never heard of a towed artillery unit and just assume it means towed in the same sense that you would tow a trailer or boat).

I make no bones about my age.  I'm 26.  I don't try to, nor feel the need to hide that or feel embarrassed about it.  In fact, as you know, I'm the one who told you within the last couple of weeks or so that I started Kindergarten around 1983.  Incessantly referring to my age, or my being a student, or my mom must be proud, etc. shows nothing more than that you either are unable to or choose not to go toe to toe with me intellectually so instead resort to circumstantial ad hominem attacks. 

Age an't all it's cracked up to be Fredster.  When you're in diapers and wheeling around an oxygen tank, I'll still be playing golf and building arcade controls.  And I'll still be able to run circles around you when it comes to logical reasoning.

Whatever. 

[mnm1200]

Kinda interesting that when someone feels compelled enough that something is just <like slavery> they can quote rulebooks at you...But when they feel stongly enough that they are right, they can just ignore the other parts of the same rulebook.  <Sorry Seamonkey, you took my bait on that one>

"The right to bear arms openly"
vs.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

There must be an awful lot of 1 person militias out there protecting the State.  <Considering the actual definition of a militia, I don't see a arguement here - I know some will try>.

But I do feel that that amendment could and should have been worded much better to prevent people twisting it around like what has happened over the years.  But that's just me...

Xar256

That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and therefore ought to be avoided as far as the circumstances and protection of the community will admit; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.
-The first draft of the 2nd Amendment, submitted by Virginia
Obviously the standing army part was a sore point between the Colonies, so it was stricken. However we are left with very important verbage that explains EXACTLY what the 2nd Amendment means.

There would be no controversy with this at all if they left it the original way (maybe w/o the standing armies part). As is, it's improper English. If there were a semicolon as there was originally, there would be no confusion as to the meaning of this! =/

[shmokes]

I suspect that the vagueness was sometimes intentional, as a compromise.  There was a lot of contention over the wording of these amendments.  I think some of them could not get enough votes to pass until it was made vague enough that people of various positions could read it in a way that they felt could reasonably be interpreted as they liked.  Damned democracy always compllicating things!

[mnm1200]

I don't see why it should have to be vague, let alone grammatically incorrect.
Granted, I don't remember much of the history of the time, but I believe it should have been clearly specified. Much of early American law arose out of how the British has been treating them. The amendment regarding quartering of troops was one of them, which was clear and to the point.
With the second amendment, you don't have that liberty. Yes as it's written, it is vague, which means you have to go to the original intent. Of course, there were more than one side back then too. I believe that people can argue all they want about it, but it will take a Supreme Court decision to decide what it really means, and we all know that the Supreme Court in any form is not an unbiased mediator...

:depressed:

 

[TOK]

Age an't all it's cracked up to be Fredster.  When you're in diapers and wheeling around an oxygen tank, I'll still be playing golf and building arcade controls.  And I'll still be able to run circles around you when it comes to logical reasoning.

Whatever. 

Providing you don't get robbed and slaughtered because you're afraid to defend yourself.

[fredster]

And I'll still be able to run circles around you when it comes to logical reasoning.

As long as you think so man.  I'm glad for you.

[fredster]

I guess I have never really understood why people have this aversion to guns. Especially getting comments from overseas.

I can't for the life of me understand why someone in another country doesn't like the fact that Americans have the right to bare arms.  What does it matter to you?  How could it possibly affect these people?

[SeaMonkey]

Heh.

I am just overly satisfied that the facts are not refutable, and in the end, would-be detractors are left with, grasping at straws.

The time of formation is well docuemented, by personal diary and the slew of conversations that took place on the editorial pages of news papers of the day.

If you can't find it quoted by the founding fathers, they didn't say it.

Anyone in the U.S. with an 8th grade education knows why the 2nd Amendment was reworded. This isn't even highschool civics. It's elementary history.

However, disingenuous the last weak volley may be, there are those from other countries that never had the good fortune to sit in an American History class.

The fact is, Hamilton wanted a standing army. Jefferson, it could be argued, was a one man army that kept Hamilton from making the Americas into a monarchy.

However, the fact remains that the meaning of the word militia was not vague to the men of the day. And it wouldn't be now, if liberals would not have spent 200 years trying to rewrite history. There is nothing ambiguous about

[SeaMonkey]

I suspect that the vagueness was sometimes intentional, as a compromise.  There was a lot of contention over the wording of these amendments.  I think some of them could not get enough votes to pass until it was made vague enough that people of various positions could read it in a way that they felt could reasonably be interpreted as they liked.  Damned democracy always compllicating things!

Well yeah. That was the point. The states could make the important decisions and the fed was to keep their hands off. The entire constitution reads like that....on purpose.

Who had a democracy? We are a REPUBLIC here in the U.S.

The word "democracy" isn't even in the Constitution.

Seriously....tell me you knew we were not a democracy. I mean, if you didn't get anything else from 12 years of public schools, tell me you at least know what KIND of government you have.

[Bones]

I guess I have never really understood why people have this aversion to guns. Especially getting comments from overseas.

I can't for the life of me understand why someone in another country doesn't like the fact that Americans have the right to bare arms.

[SeaMonkey]

I don't think it's a case of not liking the fact that you bare arms.

It's more of a curiosity as to why, without fully understanding the social factors that drive a large population towards gun ownership.

If you will go through the quotes in my posts above, the picture will emerge. We were told that our part of the deal is to own guns. The 2nd Amendment doesn't say anything about hunting, or target shooting. It tells Americans that like voting and jury duty, that having a gun is more than a right, it is an obligation you have toward your neighbor, for mutual defense.

I don't wonder that Europeans are baffled, I don't wonder that this last generation of Americans can't tell me who Thomas Pane was. What I do find quite remarkable is that the Swiss don't get this same guff.

Ever since Switzerland's founding in 1291, an armed citizenry has been a cornerstone of its defense. The Swiss Militia also inspired American revolutionaries from John Adams to Patrick Henry and served as the model for the Second Amendment.  Ask them what a militia is...they know.

Everyone who feins ignorance here really knows that the 2nd Amendment is in the Bill of Rights. They also know that the Bill of Rights, secures rights of the people. The Bill of Rights is not a PROTECTION OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
And in spite of comments to the contrary, every school child knows that. 
The Bill of Rights was to restrict government's power to take away fundimental rights. That isn't my "take", by the way. Says so right on the document.

THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.

[DrewKaree]

I think we need an assault-knife or assault-rope law on the books.

Something with TEETH! 

Rope cannot be purchased unless you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have no clothes dryer and are going to use it to hang your clothes on to dry.  If you wish to purchase rope, you can only have a certain length lying about the house, and you will be subject to a 5-day waiting period (after all, death by rope HAS to be premeditated, so a longer time period will weed out all the malcontents wanting to get their hands quickly on a phat hank of it)

Knives should be limited to the plastic kind available at any fast-food restaurant.  If you can't complete your task with those, you are simply using them for frivolous purposes, as Grok the caveman didn't have a Henckels knife set and seemed to do just fine without them, therefore, you should be able to also.

Bullets will continue to be sold, at a price of one peso per 50 pounds, and they will be sold in 50 pound increments (your arm will wear out before you can throw all 50 pounds).  All the new gun regulations shall be written in every language EXCEPT Engrish.  We already kill each other even though they are written in Engrish, and those who come into our country always have that as a defense, since clearly there isn't a class required to own a gun, and only those who tend to obey the law generally are the ones taking those classes....which are still taught in Engrish.

We especially should have all the gun laws printed in Spanish and Hmong, with any language we can throw a translator at to be added daily, weekly, monthly, or yearly.  If undue amounts of Americans continue to kill each other with guns, we will continue to strengthen laws that protect the victims shot while unlawfully entering a home, as long as they can demonstrate that the bullet didn't do the damage, thereby clearing the homeowner of all charges.

And to the Republic for which it stands...viva 'merca!

[fredster]

It's more of a curiosity as to why, without fully understanding the social factors that drive a large population towards gun ownership.

Well, anybody from Mexico?

[DrewKaree]

I agree that perhaps I don't need a Browning Heavy Barrel H2 50cal machine gun. While they are really fun to drive, there is nothing left of the squirel you were trying to bag if indeed there would be anything left of the tree. 

Since I don't own a chainsaw, I actually DO find a need to own a Browning Heavy Barrel H2 50cal machine gun, and if it were reasonably priced, I have a feeling I would make that purchase......for removing the diseases and dying trees on my property, of course! and around the rest of the neighborhood and city!  w00t!

[duffjr]

The "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is retarded.  Every time I hear or read that I vomit all over myself. 

Guns kill people.  The technicality you rely on to suggest otherwise is absurd. 

Are you deliberately being obtuse by saying it's absurd to suggest otherwise?

Guns kill no one, unless thrown hard enough and precisely struck to inflict death.


Get ahold of yourself, the vomiting has made you light-headed and you don't have your faculties about you....other than at work.

BULLETS kill people.  The technicality YOU rely on to suggest otherwise is absurd.


This message has been brought to you by the Dale Carnegie Outreach Course of Greater BYOAC.

i would argue force kills people.  ever tried to kill someone with only a bullet?

[duffjr]

I'm glad you stopped the rape, but anecdotal evidence is pretty weak when you're trying to support something.  A google search for the phrase "raped at gunpoint" (in quotes) turns up 710 hits.  In reality I think that guns are probably neither the primary cause of, or solution to rape.

quoted google searches turn up far less results and are only useful for specific cases.  how many men need guns to rape women?  i've never heard of such an incident outside of movies.  he said he prevented a rape with a gun.

[duffjr]

[quote author=SeaMonkey link=topic=32167.msg275327#msg275327
Tokyo would be the winner there, BrokenBones1.

No guns AND no crime to protect yourself from. Lowest crime rate on the planet. I could live without my precious guns, if I knew statistically I was going to be safe.

http://auctions.yahoo.co.jp

check out the feedback of random sellers.  100% except if you have over a few thousand ratings.  they're ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?---, too ashamed to even leave a negative feedback.  would you want to live like that?

[duffjr]

I guess I have never really understood why people have this aversion to guns. Especially getting comments from overseas.

I can't for the life of me understand why someone in another country doesn't like the fact that Americans have the right to bare arms.  What does it matter to you?  How could it possibly affect these people?

when your friends have family members who are dying in gang related incidents, you should fear guns.  you do not want these people to have guns.  you want all guns to disappear, but then what happens if someone has a knife?  more people carry knives than guns.  the truth is people who use guns for protection have fear, which is warranted because its human nature like it is to be a criminal, as long as the criminal isn't afraid.  what happens when both the victim and assailant have guns?  how many people die here?

[DrewKaree]

i would argue force kills people.  ever tried to kill someone with only a bullet?

* DrewKaree puts a bullet on the ground and trips duffjr so he falls on it, thereby killing himself....sooey-side!

Gravity kills.  Speed too! 

 

[Dartful Dodger]

what happens when both the victim and assailant have guns?

[DrewKaree]

Just one more reason to own a gun.  I'm sure he never asked "pretty please" and was the instigator in this whole situation 

[DrewKaree]

This is so wierd.  Even law-abiding people in South Africa aren't willing to sit idly by while their government bans or tries to take away their guns. 

Probably the best quote I've ever heard on this issue, which no one seems to grasp:

"It's not really a matter of choice," Holmes said. "Licensed firearms are not used in crime at any great rate."

The dude is referring to the need to obtain options OTHER than guns to fight criminals who break the law and use the guns the laws were designed to "protect" the people 

If the people in Johannesburg can pick up on this, maybe the NRA should recruit them to speak to those who just can't wrap their head around this issue.

Reuters news story