Flying to Nevada from Illinois with a gun

[Zakk]

On the flip side of this if everybody was conscious of the fact that anyone could be carrying, everyone would be very nice to each other.

Hey, no offense meant, but if that's your idea of a perfect society: Everyone eyeing each other hoping that they don't get a bullet in the brain for not saying "thank you" when someone holds open a door?

And yes, I'm in another country, so I know you don't give a flying frep about what I think, but still... that comment seems really out of whack.

My idea is more: "Jeez, you just never know when some beautiful girl is just going to up and flash you.

[Bones]

so should we get rid of knives, swords, chemicals, blunt heavy objects, while were at it?

Well within reason, why not?

Or get to heart of the problem and ask why your society feels so compelled to protect itself from each other.

This ain't a shot (pun intended) at the yanks. I have a baseball but under my bed and anybody who enters my home and threatens my family is not going to wake up again.

But there is a difference between this and the relaxed attitude towards guns. If this genuinely makes your country a better place to live and I have failed to understand the bigger picture, I can deal with being wrong.

[Grasshopper]

The number of guns per citizens is exactly why Brits never have to come here, and rescue us from the Germans....and that was its intent all along.

The reason why the US is unlikely to be invaded any time soon has nothing whatsoever to do with gun ownership. The USA obviously now has powerful army but it's also protected by geography. The USA is a vast country and thus difficult to occupy. It is surrounded by large oceans to the east and west, and friendly (and relatively weak) neighbours to the north and south, and is thus difficult to invade.

An armed militia would be no match for a professional army. Look at the example of Iraq given earlier. Most adult male Iraqis own a gun yet Iraq was invaded with ridiculous ease. And I haven't even begun to talk about nuclear weapons.

And prior to the war all those guns in circulation didn't protect the ordinary citizens from Saddam Hussain and his henchmen.

[SeaMonkey]

Or get to heart of the problem and ask why your society feels so compelled to protect itself from each other.

Exactly. Countries could ask themselves the same questions...and get the same answers.

Why would Jews in pre-WWII germany want to hold on to their guns, in spite of the new gun control laws? That makes no sense!

But there is a difference between this and the relaxed attitude towards guns. If this genuinely makes your country a better place to live and I have failed to understand the bigger picture, I can deal with being wrong.

I assure you, my attitude toward gun ownership is anything but relaxed.

[SeaMonkey]

The reason why the US is unlikely to be invaded any time soon has nothing whatsoever to do with gun ownership. The USA obviously now has powerful army but it's also protected by geography. The USA is a vast country and thus difficult to occupy. It is surrounded by large oceans to the east and west, and friendly (and relatively weak) neighbours to the north and south, and is thus difficult to invade.

An armed militia would be no match for a professional army. Look at the example of Iraq given earlier. Most adult male Iraqis own a gun yet Iraq was invaded with ridiculous ease. And I haven't even begun to talk about nuclear weapons.

And prior to the war all those guns in circulation didn't protect the ordinary citizens from Saddam Hussain and his henchmen

Iraq is the size of Illinois.
Apples and cranberries.

The U.S. has seen fighting on its soil, and civilian arms has always had an impact. The sheer number of our guns is greater than any five standing armies in the world, combined.

[Dartful Dodger]

This thread was started to point out the firearm ignorance in our airports' security.

If you live outside of the USA you don

[Bones]

This thread was started to point out the firearm ignorance in our airports' security.

If you live outside of the USA you don

[DrewKaree]

The "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is retarded.  Every time I hear or read that I vomit all over myself. 

Guns kill people.  The technicality you rely on to suggest otherwise is absurd. 

Are you deliberately being obtuse by saying it's absurd to suggest otherwise?

Guns kill no one, unless thrown hard enough and precisely struck to inflict death.


Get ahold of yourself, the vomiting has made you light-headed and you don't have your faculties about you....other than at work.

BULLETS kill people.  The technicality YOU rely on to suggest otherwise is absurd.


This message has been brought to you by the Dale Carnegie Outreach Course of Greater BYOAC.

[DrewKaree]

Ginsu knives can cut through a cinder block, and still slice tomatoes paper thin. Do we really need that kind of cutting power as individuals?

As a connoisseur of paper-thin tomato slices, not only do I believe we need that kind of cutting power, I believe it to be a right of every free man, woman, and child in America, and will defend it to the death....with my Ronco Pocket Fisherman.

[SeaMonkey]

And Sephroth I'd do some research on how many gun shot injuries and deaths are the caused by the homeowners handgun and how many victims are the homeowners family or friends.

It is in fact interesting research. Swimming pools and bathtubs kill more children than guns kill PEOPLE, 5 to 1, in my state.

So if this were REALLY about safety, then we would be talking about water control.

In 1996, nearly 1,000 children ages 14 and under drowned. Children ages 4 and under accounted for nearly half of these deaths.
Each year, an estimated 5,000 children ages 14 and under are hospitalized due to near-drowning.
Near-drowning have high case fatality rates. Fifteen percent of children admitted for near-drowning die in the hospital. As many as 20 percent of near-drowning survivors suffer severe, permanent neurological disability.
For every child who drowns, an additional four are hospitalized for near-drowning; and for every hospital admission, approximately four children are treated in hospital emergency rooms.
A swimming pool is 14 times more likely than a motor vehicle to be involved in the death of a child age 4 and under.

Guns kill less people than cars, per unit. That's odd, since that is the primary function of the gun....not the car.

So again....we are not talking about safety, or we would be talking about car control.

There is a psychological recoil that some people have that makes them think an inanimate object can be evil, by its very existance. Other people have that same fear of clowns, in spite of the fact that there has only been a single documented case of Clown-Canibilism.

[DrewKaree]

There is a psychological recoil that some people have that makes them think an inanimate object can be evil, by its very existance. Other people have that same fear of clowns, in spite of the fact that there has only been a single documented case of Clown-Canibilism.

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH CLOWNS!  THE CLOWNS ARE COMING, THE CLOWNS ARE COMING, EVERYBODY RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN!


So then you know why people don't eat clowns, right?

They taste funny.

[Magnet_Eye]

Originally, when the right to bear arms was created, it was due to invasion by brits and so on, so we could all fight back and retain the country we were trying to build. we have the country now, we don't need militias.

Anyway, I am an american but I agree with Apollo to some extent. The gun thing is out of control here. I don't see why a guy needs to own like 50 or 100 guns of all varities. It's ridiculous.

Also, the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" thing...it's true in some ways, but i don't think it works in the case of say a 5 year old gets a hold of the gun and shoots himself or a friend. That is not a case of a person intentionally killing someone. Blame it on the "lack of training" of the gun owner? If the gun wasn't there to begin with, no one would have died.

Fact is

GUNS WERE CREATED TO KILL PEOPLE!

So,  since they were created to kill people, I guess you could say they do.


Finally, I'd like to see a study of many people have died unnecessarily from guns compared to the amount of people that actually "defended" themselves with guns.  I bet that more people have been killed unnecessarily/accidentally than the number of people that have actually defended themselves from life threatening situations.

[SeaMonkey]

Finally, I'd like to see a study of many people have died unnecessarily from guns compared to the amount of people that actually "defended" themselves with guns.

[Magnet_Eye]

And Sephroth I'd do some research on how many gun shot injuries and deaths are the caused by the homeowners handgun and how many victims are the homeowners family or friends.

It is in fact interesting research. Swimming pools and bathtubs kill more children than guns kill PEOPLE, 5 to 1, in my state.

So if this were REALLY about safety, then we would be talking about water control.

In 1996, nearly 1,000 children ages 14 and under drowned. Children ages 4 and under accounted for nearly half of these deaths.
Each year, an estimated 5,000 children ages 14 and under are hospitalized due to near-drowning.
Near-drowning have high case fatality rates. Fifteen percent of children admitted for near-drowning die in the hospital. As many as 20 percent of near-drowning survivors suffer severe, permanent neurological disability.
For every child who drowns, an additional four are hospitalized for near-drowning; and for every hospital admission, approximately four children are treated in hospital emergency rooms.
A swimming pool is 14 times more likely than a motor vehicle to be involved in the death of a child age 4 and under.

Guns kill less people than cars, per unit. That's odd, since that is the primary function of the gun....not the car.

So again....we are not talking about safety, or we would be talking about car control.

There is a psychological recoil that some people have that makes them think an inanimate object can be evil, by its very existance. Other people have that same fear of clowns, in spite of the fact that there has only been a single documented case of Clown-Canibilism.

Problem with this is that swimming pools, bathtubs, cars, etc. were not CREATED to kill. These are accidents.

Guns WERE CREATED TO KILL.

That is their purpose. That is a fact.

[SeaMonkey]

Problem with this is that swimming pools, bathtubs, cars, etc. were not CREATED to kill. These are accidents.

Guns WERE CREATED TO KILL.

That is their purpose. That is a fact.

That is true. But they do it rarely, it would seem. Otherwise, they wouldn't be so effective at protecting my family.
 There are more dangerous things out there for you to be afraid of, if you need something to be afraid of.
Ted Kennedy's CAR has killed more people than ANY of my guns.

[shmokes]

BULLETS kill people.  The technicality YOU rely on to suggest otherwise is absurd.

No.....that's simply another technicality that is almost identical to the first technicality I talked about.  Unless, of course, you're talking about shoving a 22 bullet into a straw and then throwing it at the wall to fire it or something.

I'd also like to point out that a person who claims to be a connoiseur of paper-thin tomato slices yet believes that ginsu knives are worth the paper-thin tomato slices they can allegedly cut cannot be trusted.  What is your postition man?  Do you believe ginsu knives are truly capable of said feat?

And Seamonky....there's a lot of faulty logic in your bathtub and swimming pool post.  You really ought to go back and read that.  I'm not saying that you have nothing valid to say, but your argument needs some serious work.

[Magnet_Eye]

Finally, I'd like to see a study of many people have died unnecessarily from guns compared to the amount of people that actually "defended" themselves with guns.  I bet that more people have been killed unnecessarily/accidentally than the number of people that have actually defended themselves from life threatening situations.

Your wish is my command

This article actually quotes multiple studies.

More than one study claims that there are 2.73 million defensive gun users. I am in that statistic. I stopped a man from raping my sister.

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/kleck2.html

I'm glad you stopped a rape. But, was is really necesarry to have a gun to do so? I don't have guns, but if i saw some dude attacking a woman, I'd jump on him and beat his ass. I don't need a gun to intervene.

PS- the info in that link is 10 or more years old.

[DrewKaree]

Guns WERE CREATED TO KILL.

That is their purpose. That is a fact.

Patently false.  Guns were created for people to USE them as ANOTHER means by which to defend themselves, and to do so easier than the old method.  Sometimes, in doing so, people died.

Also, you completely ignored the fact that guns were NOT created to kill, BULLETS were.  Guns are merely the delivery method which has proved most effective, as throwing them at people has very little consequence other than to REALLY piss people off, at which point, they would stab you.

[Magnet_Eye]

Guns WERE CREATED TO KILL.

That is their purpose. That is a fact.

Patently false.  Guns were created for people to USE them as ANOTHER means by which to defend themselves, and to do so easier than the old method.  Sometimes, in doing so, people died.

Also, you completely ignored the fact that guns were NOT created to kill, BULLETS were.  Guns are merely the delivery method which has proved most effective, as throwing them at people has very little consequence other than to REALLY piss people off, at which point, they would stab you.

Wow. You have got to be kidding me. "Bullets kill people"? LOl. Bullets are part of the gun. They go hand in hand. One is useless without the other.

So if i get run over by a car, I guess the tires killed me, not the car or the driver, right? lol

[shmokes]

Guns WERE CREATED TO KILL.

That is their purpose. That is a fact.

Patently false.  Guns were created for people to USE them as ANOTHER means by which to defend themselves, and to do so easier than the old method.  Sometimes, in doing so, people died.

Also, you completely ignored the fact that guns were NOT created to kill, BULLETS were.  Guns are merely the delivery method which has proved most effective, as throwing them at people has very little consequence other than to REALLY piss people off, at which point, they would stab you.

Keck..........Keck.......


Vomit

[DrewKaree]

I'd also like to point out that a person who claims to be a connoiseur of paper-thin tomato slices yet believes that ginsu knives are worth the paper-thin tomato slices they can allegedly cut cannot be trusted.  What is your postition man?  Do you believe ginsu knives are truly capable of said feat?

I saw it on TV, so it has to be true.  TV wouldn't lie to me, unless it was tuned to CBS.

[SeaMonkey]

I'm glad you stopped a rape. But, was is really necesarry to have a gun to do so? I don't have guns, but if i saw some dude attacking a woman, I'd jump on him and beat his ass. I don't need a gun to intervene.

PS- the info in that link is 10 or more years old.

Dudes, not dude.

And thanks, my sister was pretty happy about it too.

So in 10 years you think the accadent ratio went up...or what? I don't really follow that last bit.

[SeaMonkey]

And Seamonky....there's a lot of faulty logic in your bathtub and swimming pool post.

[Magnet_Eye]

I'm glad you stopped a rape. But, was is really necesarry to have a gun to do so? I don't have guns, but if i saw some dude attacking a woman, I'd jump on him and beat his ass. I don't need a gun to intervene.

PS- the info in that link is 10 or more years old.

Dudes, not dude.

And thanks, my sister was pretty happy about it too.

So in 10 years you think the accadent ratio went up...or what? I don't really follow that last bit.

No, but i can't rely on old data, nor data that looks unprofessional in manner. Meaning, look at that site. Last update in 1997. C'mon, there has to be more up-to-date accurate data out there. NRA website or what?

Not to be rude or anything, but how did you just happen to be with your sister with a gun when dudes were trying to rape her. sounds like a very strange incident.

[DrewKaree]

Wow. You have got to be kidding me. "Bullets kill people"? LOl. Bullets are part of the gun. They go hand in hand. One is useless without the other.

Again, patently false.  Go into a gun store.  Purchase a gun.  Open the chamber/magazine.  Take a picture of it, and post it here.  You will have demonstrated that bullets are NOT, in fact, part of the gun.  Bullets have to be purchased SEPARATELY from the bullet-delivery system (gun, for short).

They do NOT go hand in hand, they go hand to magazine, and magazine to gun.

You are EXACTLY right that one is useless without the other, but the fact remains that the gun does not do the killing.  The bullet is what does the damage that causes death, ergo, the BULLET, Watson, is what kills people.

If Roger Clemens were to throw a bullet at you, he could probably kill you with it, eliminating the need for the gun.  The gun would not have killed you, the BULLET would have killed you. 

Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

Someone get shmokes a bucket, he's got some kind of bug, and bad.

So if i get run over by a car, I guess the tires killed me, not the car or the driver, right? lol

TERRIBLE analogy.  The tires are, in fact, a part of the car, unlike the bullet, HOWEVER, the tires can be removed, slid over you and your torso so you couldn't move your arms, have you tossed into a lake, and since you couldn't move your arms, the tires, in fact, would have killed you in that case.

[SeaMonkey]

Not to be rude or anything, but how did you just happen to be with your sister with a gun when dudes were trying to rape her. sounds like a very strange incident.

**blink**

Yeah, we don't do that kind of thing every day.

1988 Indiana State Fair.
I had my nephews playing games in the Midway. She went back to the car first. They served beer at the fair at the time.

www.jpfo.org has lots of good articles if you want something more professional.  (Jews for the preservation of firearm ownership)

[shmokes]

Don't get too bent Seamonkey.  Here is a single example.  There is a lot of this sort of thing in there:

It is in fact interesting research. Swimming pools and bathtubs kill more children than guns kill PEOPLE, 5 to 1, in my state.

This is, presumably a true premise.  But you are leaving out important information that may require a different conclusion than the one you are coming to.  Like, perhaps, is the ratio of bathtubs to guns in your state higher than 5 to 1 (The answer to that question is yes.  It is WAY WAY WAY higher)? 

[Magnet_Eye]

Don't get too bent Seamonkey.  Here is a single example.  There is a lot of this sort of thing in there:

It is in fact interesting research. Swimming pools and bathtubs kill more children than guns kill PEOPLE, 5 to 1, in my state.

This is, presumably a true premise.  But you are leaving out important information that may require a different conclusion than the one you are coming to.  Like, perhaps, is the ratio of bathtubs to guns in your state higher than 5 to 1 (The answer to that question is yes.  It is WAY WAY WAY higher)? 

yep. it's like when people tell me that flying is safe. "More people die from car crashes then airplane crashes each year." Yeah, well look at the number of planes vs. the number of cars. duh. put the same number of planes as there are cars in the sky, then we'll see.

[SeaMonkey]

Don't get too bent Seamonkey.

[shmokes]

Drew,

I'm starting to think you actually believe what you are saying is relevant or useful, rather than just a funny way to get under people's skin.

If you are in fact serious I think I can clear this up.  I think this is just a.....what do they call them......failure to communicate.  For the remainder of this discussion (and any future threads started by DD), when someone refers to a gun killing somebody, be charitable.  It is our way of saying that the gun played a central role in the cause of that person's death.

I'm starting to vomit blood.  You're becoming dangerous to me.  Now, I know that technically it would be the vomiting that killed me, but only someone in serious need of an enema would not understand what people were talking about when they said that I was killed by DrewKaree.

[DrewKaree]

Now, I know that technically it would be the vomiting that killed me,

Don't be silly.  The loss of blood would be what killed you.

Unless I could throw a bullet at you hard enough.

[shmokes]

Oddly the numbers don't match up in places like L.A. and New York, where they have stronger gun control. Stronger gun control seems to follow more people getting shot and less people drowning.

Holy cow...this thread is like a chat room, not a message board.

But, what I mean, is that if there are, say, 500 bathtubs to every gun, you would have to have 500 deaths by bathtub to for every death by gun for those two items to be equally dangerous, all things being equal.  And then, when you consider that all things are not equal and that those bathtubs get used on a daily basis, whereas guns spend most of their time (hopefully) locked up, out of reach of children, the differences become even more pronounced.  Even swimming pools, which don't get used nearly as often as bathtubs (though you did mention you live in Arizona so they probably come close), are affected similarly.  Kids play in swimming pools all the time.  They are allowed and encouraged to do this.  Kids don't play with guns NEARLY as often.  If kids play with swimming pools five times as often as they play with guns, then a 5 to 1 ratio for swimming pool deaths to gun deaths would be expected if the two items were equally dangerous.  Presumably kids play in swimming pools more often than guns at a ratio far greater than 5 to 1.

If this is true, once again, your statistic says exactly the opposite of what you meant for it to say.  It says that swimming pools and bathtubs are FAR safer than guns.

[SeaMonkey]

Far safer, but they kill far more people.

That's really odd.

If guns are killing so few people, compared to other things, my only point is, there are causes of death that need to be addressed, before taking away my guns. My guns are locked up, as would be my clowns, if I owned them, with the exception of the one on me now. (Gun not clown)

Your point is taken. These other things are more dangerous ONLY by virtue of sheer volume. They are more common. So a 15,000 gallon pool is less dangerous than 15,000 gallons of guns.

True enough. But the fact remains that my pool can kill a neighborhood kid more readily than my guns, even when I am not at home.

[shmokes]

I'd also like to point out that a person who claims to be a connoiseur of paper-thin tomato slices yet believes that ginsu knives are worth the paper-thin tomato slices they can allegedly cut cannot be trusted.  What is your postition man?  Do you believe ginsu knives are truly capable of said feat?

I saw it on TV, so it has to be true.  TV wouldn't lie to me, unless it was tuned to CBS.

SUCKER

So.....Drew.....You walked right into my trap.  You believe that Ginsu knives can cut cut paper-thin tomatoes, eh?

Well....I've got news for you, buddy.

Ginsu knives don't cut tomatoes.  People cut tomatoes.

mwahahaHAHAHAHAHAHA

[SeaMonkey]

I'd also like to point out that a person who claims to be a connoiseur of paper-thin tomato slices yet believes that ginsu knives are worth the paper-thin tomato slices they can allegedly cut cannot be trusted.

[fredster]

I have had a gun within 20 feet of me in my house all of my life. I shot my first gun at 4 1/2.  To me they are like screwdrivers. You have a hammer, a screwdriver, and a gun somewhere in your house.

I don't think anybody has to justify having guns to anybody.  I don't think you have to justify having a car, or being able to travel.

Sorry you suckers overseas if you don't have access to firearms. I feel for you.

And it's just like shmokes to bring a knife to a gunfight.

[shmokes]

Far safer, but they kill far more people.

That's really odd.

If guns are killing so few people, compared to other things, my only point is, there are causes of death that need to be addressed, before taking away my guns. My guns are locked up, as would be my clowns, if I owned them, with the exception of the one on me now. (Gun not clown)

I spend more hours with a gun than a car, or water, and yet I have choked on water, and been hit by other cars (twice) and my gun has never choked, killed, hit, anyone. It did scare three guys from Gary Indiana once, but that is a good thing.

I think it's cos we don't just consider the things in a vacuum.  We consider them in more of an overall context, and bathtubs serve so many purposes that we would lose more without them than we would gain.  There are grey areas for things.  For example a friend of mine died from overdosing on Methadone.  But Methadone also saves the lives of Heroin addicts by helping them beat their addiction.  One possible answer is regulating methadone to try to keep it out of the hands of people who have no good reason to have it.

I'm glad you stopped the rape, but anecdotal evidence is pretty weak when you're trying to support something.  A google search for the phrase "raped at gunpoint" (in quotes) turns up 710 hits.  In reality I think that guns are probably neither the primary cause of, or solution to rape.

[DrewKaree]

SUCKER

So.....Drew.....You walked right into my trap.  You believe that Ginsu knives can cut cut paper-thin tomatoes, eh?

Well....I've got news for you, buddy.

Ginsu knives don't cut tomatoes.  People cut tomatoes.

mwahahaHAHAHAHAHAHA

DRAT!  You've foiled me with your evil plot! 

* DrewKaree throws a bullet at shmokes

[shmokes]

**milk out of nose**

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Schmokes, do you drink?
As much as we disagree I think we would still have a great time over some dark beer.

No doubt.  Plus,  I'm much more tolerable in person.  I don't get to spend five minutes composing everything I say before I say it in conversation.  And dark beer is sooo tasty.

And hey....we're already neighbors.  I'm in Utah.  Less than an hour from the Arizona border on I-15.

[DrewKaree]

One possible answer is regulating methadone to try to keep it out of the hands of people who have no good reason to have it.

So methadone is like pot or clowns?

I thought this was about guns and their inability to kill people without bullets or other people.

No doubt.  Plus,  I'm much more tolerable in person.

The vomit would be the thing that killed me....you can rest easy knowing you're off the hook, shmokes...as long as you aren't a fastball pitcher with a handful of bullets.