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Author Topic: The Clinton gun ban has expired!  (Read 30990 times)

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Dartful Dodger

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The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« on: September 13, 2004, 02:50:09 pm »
Ban expired

It's a wonderful day to be an American.

Time to buy an assault shot gun and all the high-capacity magazines I can afford.  I don't know what rights I'll have taken away from me in 3 months.

abrannan

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2004, 03:27:12 pm »
Why?  You going to prison in three months or something?  
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2004, 03:40:49 pm »
I would guess yes considering that he's in the market for an assault shotgun.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2004, 04:23:44 pm »
I believe chris rock said it best "give everyone as many guns as they want but charge $5000 per bullet, that way you really have to want someone dead if your going to spend that kind of money on him...
its better to not post and be thought a fool, then to whip out your keyboard and remove all doubt...

Floyd10

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2004, 04:32:38 pm »
But, theres a lot of lying on that site.

(to paraphrase):

"Law abiding citizens will always be law abiding, so we should have our (un necessary) assault rifles!"

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2004, 05:12:44 pm »
Why?  You going to prison in three months or something?  

I think he was suggesting that there is the possibility that if John Kerry becomes president, he will put in place all the Gun Bans that the Democrates have been holding on to for the past 4 years.

I already have 2 on order, waiting for the 5 day cooling off period... (I live the communist state of Maryland).... Any gun law that was past in the last 10 years, started as a State law in Maryland...

Wow, guns and arcades..... I'm really happy now..... (firing guns into air....) ;D

Remember, gun laws only hurt law abiding citizens.  Bad guys don't care about laws, that why they are bad guys.....

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2004, 05:14:36 pm »
WHat I feel bad for are police officers.  Now what was once a routine stop has the potential to be much more dangerous.  You have the potential for people to buy Tek-9s, which are very small semi weapons using very common ammunition (9mm).

I really don't see a need for the common public needing access to these weapons.  SWAT teams can't use them without an executive order, but the people they are trying to stop only have 3-day waiting periods....
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2004, 06:25:08 pm »
I have not seen a single good reason that anyone could need an assault weapon.  Handguns? Sure. Shotguns? Why not.  But, an assault weapon makes no sense.  It takes away what little sport there is from hunting (not a big fan of hunting).  Unless you could sell the guns but refuse to sell the ammo/clips for such guns.  Then, collectors could collect them but they wouldn't be fireable.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2004, 09:13:00 pm »
WHat I feel bad for are police officers.  Now what was once a routine stop has the potential to be much more dangerous.  You have the potential for people to buy Tek-9s, which are very small semi weapons using very common ammunition (9mm).


You say this as if ban actually made a difference.   Only like 4% of people killed by guns in the U.S. are from the so called assault weapons.  It has dropped to around 2%, but not because they aren't available.  

Go to a gun show you'll see ak's, M-16's and almost every gun banned there.  All the ban did was stop the sale and manufacturing of new assault weapons, I think there were 16 total.  It also prohibited the functionality of the weapon,  you could only have one of these items on the gun.  Pistol grip, Folding stock,  threaded barrel for suppressor's, large capacity magazines and probably one or two other things.

One of the reasons for the drop in death could be related to the supply and demand.  Since the ban went into effect the demand by gun collectors and criminals has made the price of the gun go up.  So some psycho looking for a gun, to acctualy use on someone, might settle on something more his price range.

Anyway,  yes there is no real need for these semi-automatic weapons.  But they are fun to shoot.

side note, anyone shoot an ak-47?  Did it feel like it was about to fall apart?

namzep,
I am not positive but i believe alot of guns use the same ammo,  like a tec-9 and a 9mm use a 9mm bullet so i don't see that as ever being possible.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2004, 09:21:55 pm »
Top of my list is a new 50 round drum mag for my Thompson SMG. :D

The only good thing that came out of the assault weapons ban is passing it cost the Dems control of Congress, and ultimately the presidency. I think Kerry has screwed up by attacking Bush for letting it sunset. I voted for Bush last time around specifically to make sure that it did so, and all in all I haven't been too thrilled with him as a pres otherwise. I'd likely have sat the coming election out had Kerry kept his mouth shut about the ban, but since he made an issue of it I'm inclined to vote against him on principle.










 

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2004, 10:08:13 pm »
wow... just wow

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2004, 11:48:22 pm »
ok, since I noticed the misuse of the term, here's a reminder for the discussion:

Semi-Automatic - pull the trigger once, and one bullet is fired.  The next round is automatically chambered, but will not fire until the trigger is pulled again.

Full Automatic - the action of the firearm continues to cycle as long as the trigger is held down, which results in a steady stream of bullets being fired.

Non-Semi-Automatic - muzzle loaders, bolt action rifles, pump action shotguns, etc.  After each round is fired, the cartridge myst be manually ejected, and the next round must be manually loaded.  In a shotgun, the shell is ejected as the pump is pulled in one direction, and the next shell loaded as it is slid in the opposite.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2004, 11:51:28 pm by Nephus »

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2004, 12:38:12 am »
You say this as if ban actually made a difference.   Only like 4% of people killed by guns in the U.S. are from the so called assault weapons.  It has dropped to around 2%, but not because they aren't available.  

Go to a gun show you'll see ak's, M-16's and almost every gun banned there.  All the ban did was stop the sale and manufacturing of new assault weapons, I think there were 16 total.  It also prohibited the functionality of the weapon,  you could only have one of these items on the gun.  Pistol grip, Folding stock,  threaded barrel for suppressor's, large capacity magazines and probably one or two other things.

One of the reasons for the drop in death could be related to the supply and demand.  Since the ban went into effect the demand by gun collectors and criminals has made the price of the gun go up.  So some psycho looking for a gun, to acctualy use on someone, might settle on something more his price range.

Anyway,  yes there is no real need for these semi-automatic weapons.  But they are fun to shoot.

side note, anyone shoot an ak-47?  Did it feel like it was about to fall apart?

namzep,
I am not positive but i believe alot of guns use the same ammo,  like a tec-9 and a 9mm use a 9mm bullet so i don't see that as ever being possible.

I'll clarify a bit.

There were 19 weapons who's import was banned. They couldn't ban AR-15s or MINI 14s, putting american workers out of jobs looks bad come election time. ;) ARs and Mini-14s did have some of their features limited though.

The ban was all about "evil" features. Seperate pistol grip, bayonet lug, flash hider, carry handle, folding/collapsable stock, and hi cap magazine. Post ban imports are allowed two plus the mag, unless they contain more that 10 US made parts. Early on, the result was things like "thumbhole" stocks, and non removable muzzle brakes. Then enterprising US companies picked up the slack and started making parts. Before long we were again able to buy AKs, FN-FALs, and just about every other weapon that was banned in '94.

On the magazine side, production of domestic high capacity magazines was banned, as was the import of any hi cap mag that was made after the ban. (except for LEO use) M-16 and AK magazines are no different than AR-15 and semi AK magazines, and total production of pre ban mags for them is in the 100's of millions worldwide. Excepting late '94 and '99 (y2k scare) prices on them have remained fairly stable and the supply has never been exceeded by the demand.

As to AKs in general, I own three. I'm partial to the milled reciever AK, but the stamped reciever weapons function at least as well. They're not as accurate as an AR, but fill the receiver with enough mud to jam a dozen ARs and it'll still function. Every time. Honestly I can't say I've ever had an AK go click instead of bang, unless I'd lost count and the mag was empty.


As to Darkstalker's fears, Tec-9s are utter crap. Any criminal who uses one will shortly learn the error of his ways. Permanently. ;) Typical police issue body armor will stop 9MM and just about all pistol rounds. AR and AK rounds will penetrate, but then criminals want guns they can conceil and assault rifles don't fill that bill. Don't believe me? Ask a cop.

@namzep:
I bought my first "assault" rifle on my 18th birthday. Why? because I like them and I could. ;)
I've hunted with a .308 Galil (Israeli AK variant), the AR I bought as my first rifle,  and a few of the others. I disagree with your assesment in that:

1) Hunting with a hi capacity mag is illegal everywhere in the US. 5 rounds max in a rifle, 3 in a shotgun. If a game warden catches you hunting with a 30 round banana clip, your ass is going to jail.

2) Depending on the game, (e.g. deer) assault weapon rounds are underpowered and therefore illegal to hunt with. For all the anti-gun myths about AK rounds penetrating brick walls, you simply can't make a clean kill with it at normal hunting ranges.

3) Assault weapons generally don't lend themselves to having telescopic sights fitted. Open sights are fine at combat ranges, but you can barely see a deer through them at hunting ranges. If you can't see it, you can't hit it, and most hunters won't take a shot when the chances of wounding an animal outweigh the odds of killing it outright.

That said, most shooting done by assault weapon collectors is either target shooting or plinking. Plinking is just the recreational shooting of inanimate objects. My favorite plinking targets are bowling pins, but cans, water jugs, ect are common as well. The ammo is cheap, you can't hurt the weapons, and they're just flat out fun to shoot. :)

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2004, 01:39:37 am »
I have not seen a single good reason that anyone could need an assault weapon.
It's just as easy to say "I have not seen a single good reason that anyone can give me to ban an assault weapon".  

If the proliferation of assault weapons will lead to higher death rates, in your mind, then please tell me your foolproof plan for removing these weapons from the grasp of criminals who wish to use them to commit crime.  

After you've given us that foolproof plan, then you can tell me all your reasons for why ELSE we shouldn't be allowed to have them, but until then, we, as americans, are free (as in land of the free?) to purchase things that may be detrimental to our health and to the health of others.  I'll gladly give you the ability to ban all guns, no matter the type, when you ban:

1) alcohol (one of the top causes of traffic fatalities, right? AND bad for you!)

2) smoking of all kinds, ESPECIALLY the left-handed cigarettes, since second-hand smoke is attributed to cancer deaths in non-smokers

3)automobiles (I have yet to hear of a traffic fatality that didn't include at least one of these death-mobiles...don't even get me started on the I.Q.'s of some of these "drivers")

4)knives of ANY kind - second-most preferred weapon used in armed robberies, and something that can kill, if used by someone with criminal intent

5)rope - #1 weapon of choice in all strangling deaths, and something we should regulate due to the possible accidental "mis-firing" and subsequent entanglement in said weapon, thereby leading to death


See, there are many things that can kill you in this world, some more dangerous than others.  These things CAN kill if criminals are allowed to have them.  They are safe if in the hands of law-abiding citizens (although an accidental "discharge of the above items, as well as others not named here, has been known to occur).  

You see no need for them, although many others do see a need, if only to satisfy the urge to possess it.  You CANNOT legislate personal responsibility, and this is yet one more attempt to do so.  You wish to have the criminal-minded among us conform to your laws, when by definition, the criminal is the person for whom bans and laws will be scoffed at and disregarded.  When you understand the definition of the word criminal, you will be well on your way to understanding why bans will only ensure the law-abiding citizen will be complying, while the criminal uses the ban as an opportunity to be one of a minority capable of forcing their will on those who have complied.

Please stick to ensuring that your VIEWS do not infringe upon my RIGHTS.  I may have to ask for a ban on your free speech. ::)
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2004, 02:17:25 am »
Apparently the "cooling off" period must vary from state to state.  I purchased several handguns and a rifle at a gun show when I lived in Louisiana, and had to wait all of 15 minutes for my background check to come through.  I could have bought guns, ammo, knives, everything I needed and been out in less than one hour.

Oh, and the hottest selling item at that gun show?  The Bill Clinton 3 dollar bill.

Edit:  Oh, and the creepy looking guy who sold me the .38 special in the alley behind the pawn shop downtown didn't make me do any kind of background check at all... should I report him?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2004, 03:26:44 am by Mameotron »

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2004, 03:02:59 am »
NC has a novel system. You stop by the sherrif's office before the show, have the background check run there while you wait, and buy "pistol purchase permits" to take with you to the show. $5 each, good for 5 years and you can get 5 permits a trip.  You take these with you to a show, buy your gun, fill out the yellow form, and give one to the dealer. Long guns don't require them, handguns do but you can use one in lieu of the instant check for any firearm where the the dealer is having trouble getting through to get an instant check run. In either case the purchase permit supercedes the Brady waiting period and you can take your new toy home that day.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2004, 08:27:54 am »
Why?  You going to prison in three months or something?  

I think he was suggesting that there is the possibility that if John Kerry becomes president, he will put in place all the Gun Bans that the Democrates have been holding on to for the past 4 years.


I'm well aware of what he was insinuating, but the election is in two months, not three.  And even if Kerry should happen to get elected along with enough Congressional seats going Democrat to allow whatever laws the Dems want to get passed, the inauguration isn't until January, which, by my watch, is 4 months away.  So I'm just curious to hear what he thinks is going to happen in December.  Unless he's counting on another election fiasco that will take until mid-December to work out.  

I'm also in Maryland, and I'm a Democrat, but I'm very anti gun ban.  I don't own a gun, and don't plan to, but I fully support the right to own.  
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Assault rifle ban lifted
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2004, 11:19:17 am »
I don't see the need for some of the high-power rifles and such, but I would still like to own a few (Toolman style).  One thing I found a little disturbing was a quick note at the bottom of this http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5946127/ MSN article though:

"Now, some gun manufacturers are planning to give away high-capacity magazines as bonuses for buying their weapons. Sales of formerly banned gun accessories, such as flash suppressors and folding stocks, are also expected to take off."

Flash suppressors? :o  Umm... what is the arguement for needing something like that?  Seems a bit much to me other than a "coolness factor".  Discuss...

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Re:Assault rifle ban lifted
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2004, 11:27:30 am »

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2004, 11:34:33 am »
What is the need for a flash suppressor?  And 30 round clips?  If their not legal to use for hunting, I just don't see the "need" for them to be legal.  Of course if you could go and recreationally toss a few grenades, and call that plinking, I'd have a case behind the couch ;)

I just don't understand the arguement for needing something like that.

remember: Guns don't kill people, people kill people.  A flash suppressor and a couple 30 round clips should make it easier to get away of course...

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2004, 12:32:32 pm »
Quote
Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

I respectfully disagree. Guns do kill people. For every story about someone defending him/herself with a gun, there are probably twenty stories about four-year-old girls accidentally killing themselves with guns, or "heat of the moment" type killings that wouldn't happen if they didn't have guns, or people shooting their own kids coming through the window, or people blowing away drunken, lost Scotsmen who are knocking at the door. That's why there are no guns at my house and my kids aren't allowed to go to anyone's house where there is a gun.

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is poppycock.
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2004, 12:41:35 pm »
Quote
And 30 round clips?

So you don't have to reload. Duh.

The point about gun control is the control part.  Give and inch, they take a mile. Before you know it, they'll want to take all of them.

There's a little decrepancy on what "assault" weapons are anyway.

I've had a gun of some sort and used it since I was 7.  NOT having guns is the problem, people dont' know respect for them.

You should have seen the 'urbans' who had no idea what a gun was when I joined the army.
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2004, 12:59:10 pm »
I have not seen a single good reason that anyone could need an assault weapon.  Handguns? Sure. Shotguns? Why not.  But, an assault weapon makes no sense.  It takes away what little sport there is from hunting (not a big fan of hunting).  Unless you could sell the guns but refuse to sell the ammo/clips for such guns.  Then, collectors could collect them but they wouldn't be fireable.
Quote
I just don't understand the arguement for needing  something like that.
Why get an assault gun, because you can.  Plus selling without the magazine would not be a good idea, the whole look of some guns it recognized by the magazine.  And AK47, MP5, M16, AUG would all just look weird without a mag.  Plus for a collector it needs to be a working model in order for it to be worth anything.  It's like transformer toys.  The transformer isn't worth much if it isn't in complete working condition.

Sport cars and SUVs kill people too and they are unnessessary yet we buy those in droves.

For some people it's not about what the gun can do versus just owning it.  How many people who own a Hummer (not an H2) actually put the Hummer to it's paces?  I want to see someone who bought the smoke stack for it and actually drive it through 5ft of water regularly.

you will get the same type of argument from someone who doesn't understand why you have an arcade cabinet.  They will wonder why you need it.  You don't, you wanted one.

Quote
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is poppycock.
no, people kill people.  The gun alone can't do anything.  That's the point of the saying.  You mentioned a kid accidently shooting themselves.  That's the parents fault for not properly storing the gun in a locked gun cabinet with a trigger lock and storing the ammo seperately and not in the gun.  All your examples can basically boil down to it was the person's fault.  Plus some of them really don't happen that often and you were listing rare occations as examples.

People act like it's the guns fault when it isn't.  People have been killing people even before guns were invented.  Same story, different


Edit:

Oh yeah, to add how many of you have kids and a knife block sitting on your kitchen counter?  I've seen just as many stories of kids seriously injuriing or dieing because they played with the sharpest knifes in the house.  So it isn't guns or knifes, it's the people.

I merged the wo gun ban threads together...
« Last Edit: September 14, 2004, 01:32:08 pm by SirPoonga »

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2004, 01:15:08 pm »
Quote
Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

I respectfully disagree. Guns do kill people. For every story about someone defending him/herself with a gun, there are probably twenty stories about four-year-old girls accidentally killing themselves with guns, or "heat of the moment" type killings that wouldn't happen if they didn't have guns, or people shooting their own kids coming through the window, or people blowing away drunken, lost Scotsmen who are knocking at the door. That's why there are no guns at my house and my kids aren't allowed to go to anyone's house where there is a gun.

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is poppycock.

Uhh, in every one of the circumstances you just mentioned, people are the ones pulling the trigger.  Just because it's an "accident" does not mean it is the gun's fault.  Responsible gun owners don't allow their children unsupervised access to their guns, nor do they shoot without knowing what they are shooting at.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2004, 01:18:42 pm by RacerX »

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2004, 01:20:44 pm »
I have not seen a single good reason that anyone could need an assault weapon.  Handguns? Sure. Shotguns? Why not.  But, an assault weapon makes no sense.  It takes away what little sport there is from hunting (not a big fan of hunting).  Unless you could sell the guns but refuse to sell the ammo/clips for such guns.  Then, collectors could collect them but they wouldn't be fireable.
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I just don't understand the arguement for needing  something like that.
Why get an assault gun, because you can.  Plus selling without the magazine would not be a good idea, the whole look of some guns it recognized by the magazine.  And AK47, MP5, M16, AUG would all just look weird without a mag.  Plus for a collector it needs to be a working model in order for it to be worth anything.  It's like transformer toys.  The transformer isn't worth much if it isn't in complete working condition.

Sport cars and SUVs kill people too and they are unnessessary yet we buy those in droves.

For some people it's not about what the gun can do versus just owning it.  How many people who own a Hummer (not an H2) actually put the Hummer to it's paces?  I want to see someone who bought the smoke stack for it and actually drive it through 5ft of water regularly.

you will get the same type of argument from someone who doesn't understand why you have an arcade cabinet.  They will wonder why you need it.  You don't, you wanted one.

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"Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is poppycock.
no, people kill people.  The gun alone can't do anything.  That's the point of the saying.  You mentioned a kid accidently shooting themselves.  That's the parents fault for not properly storing the gun in a locked gun cabinet with a trigger lock and storing the ammo seperately and not in the gun.  All your examples can basically boil down to it was the person's fault.  Plus some of them really don't happen that often and you were listing rare occations as examples.

People act like it's the guns fault when it isn't.  People have been killing people even before guns were invented.  Same story, different tools.  Banning guns isn't going to stop anything.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2004, 01:41:33 pm »
Agreed, Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Following that logic that "guns kill people" is like saying "pencils make mistakes".

I don't agree that for every one story of a person with a gun protecting themselves there's 20 storys of guns hurting people.  

I'd say it's more like there's no story in a person protecting themselves so for every story of a gun hurting people, there's 30 stories not reported of guns protecting people.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2004, 01:55:36 pm »
I'd say it's more like there's no story in a person protecting themselves so for every story of a gun hurting people, there's 30 stories not reported of guns protecting people.

Exactly, the media just likes to print the juicy stories.
plus this is talking about normal guns, not assault rifles.  having or not having assault rifles wouldn't change any of this.  The guns used in those cases are usually handguns that someone purchased to have some protection around the house.  I doubt you are going to get an assault rifle for that.

BTW, if anyone wants to "shoot" other people with an assault rifle check out airsoft.  Airsoft is an alternative to painball where you use small plastic BBs instead of paintballs.  And because of this the guns can be more realistic :)  Most airsoft fields have limits and safety rules you have to abide by such as limiting a gun to 300-400fps and have to were full face paintball mask.  and suggest you wear heavy clothes like BDUs.

And no, I don't want to start the argument that these guns should be banned because they look real.  If you are going to commit a crime with a real gun or a fake gun that looks like a real gun you deserve the same consequences.  You obviously got the fake gun that looks real because you knew people would think it looks real and act like it's a real gun.  Therefore you deserve the same consenquences.  I find putting the orange tips on those type of guns hilarious.  A cop isn't going to go easy on you because you have an orange tip ont he gun.  The cop doesn't know if it is a real gun with a painted tip so he/she is going to act the same in either case.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2004, 02:08:37 pm »
What is the assult weapon anyway?
is it a weapon that is fully automatic?  Is it a semi-automatic?

Was this ban a response to Columbine?  
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2004, 02:14:24 pm »
"And the National Rifle Association says that, 'Guns don't kill people, people do,' but I think the gun helps, you know? I think it helps. I just think just standing there going, 'Bang'! That's not going to kill too many people, is it? You'd have to be really dodgy on the heart to have that�"

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2004, 02:15:42 pm »
More kids die playing sports than are killed with guns.

A year or two ago in Chicago(a city that doesn't allow people to own a hand gun) a guy went into a car parts warehouse and shot and killed seven people.  At the time of the shooting Daley wanted to sue the people who sell guns to criminals, so they traced the origins of the gun. The gun was previously owned by a Vietnam vet, who bought it from a state police officer, who bought it from another state police officer.  As of yet, I haven

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2004, 02:39:00 pm »
I owned a few guns that my grandfather gave to me.  None of this ridiculous automatic stuff with giant clips and such, just hunting rifles and a handgun.  I told my parents to keep them because I don't need any guns in my house.  I don't hunt, and I don't enjoy target shooting.  Therefore, I don't see the point of keeping them around.  I respect people's rights to have hunting rifles and maybe a handgun for protection (but that's a stretch), but I think that there is no legitimate use for an assault weapon in civilian hands.  The former ban was too weak.  It should have outlawed even the pre-ban models.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2004, 02:39:44 pm »
Guns in general will never go away.  That's a fact (and I like that).  But I think regulation should be here to stay as well.  Is there any legitimate use for a flash suppressor, 30 round clips, and high powered assault rifles?  Maybe I wasn't clear, but I kind of think this ban was a good idea and should have been continued.  There has to be a line drawn somewhere or else I want my case of grenades dammit.

So I'm Pro-guns and Pro-regulation.  Treat them like a roads speed limit.  Be careful and be reasonable.  But is allowing the ban on these specific items to expire reasonable?  That's my concern.  I don't think it is.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2004, 02:41:49 pm »
What is the assult weapon anyway?
is it a weapon that is fully automatic?  Is it a semi-automatic?

Was this ban a response to Columbine?  

It bans guns with certain options on them that classifies them as "assult" weapons.

Fully automatic weapons are already banned so this law doesn't affect it

This assult weapons ban was in effect before Columbine.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2004, 02:59:27 pm »
What is the assult weapon anyway?
is it a weapon that is fully automatic?  Is it a semi-automatic?

Was this ban a response to Columbine?  

Assault rifles by definition are selective fire (full auto or burst fire) military weapons that fire a intermediate rifle cartridge. Such weapons fall under the National Firearms Act and civilian possesion is heavily by the federal government. They're legal to posess in several states, and the registered owners of such weapons have a stellar record of not commiting crimes with them. Since machine guns were registered in '35, there's been one case where someone commited a crime with one. He was a cop and should've known better.  ;)

The '94 ban was placed on semi-auto replicas of true assault rifles, which are similar but have to be redesigned to prevent them from being easily converted to full auto weapons.

Columbine happened after the ban was in effect. Several of the parents who's kids were killed there have come out in support of allowing the ban to expire. The reality is this ban did nothing to prevent crime.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2004, 04:01:18 pm »
I have not seen a single good reason that anyone could need an assault weapon.
It's just as easy to say "I have not seen a single good reason that anyone can give me to ban an assault weapon".  

If the proliferation of assault weapons will lead to higher death rates, in your mind, then please tell me your foolproof plan for removing these weapons from the grasp of criminals who wish to use them to commit crime.  
Don't really agree here, but It's all opinion so far, and speculation
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After you've given us that foolproof plan, then you can tell me all your reasons for why ELSE we shouldn't be allowed to have them, but until then, we, as americans, are free (as in land of the free?) to purchase things that may be detrimental to our health and to the health of others.  I'll gladly give you the ability to ban all guns, no matter the type, when you ban:
WHOAH WHOAH WHOAH! slow down!
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1) alcohol (one of the top causes of traffic fatalities, right? AND bad for you!)

2) smoking of all kinds, ESPECIALLY the left-handed cigarettes, since second-hand smoke is attributed to cancer deaths in non-smokers
Not true. Marijuana (which is relatively harmless), Crack, Cocaine, Extacy, Shrooms, and more I'm not mentioning.
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3)automobiles (I have yet to hear of a traffic fatality that didn't include at least one of these death-mobiles...don't even get me started on the I.Q.'s of some of these "drivers")

4)knives of ANY kind - second-most preferred weapon used in armed robberies, and something that can kill, if used by someone with criminal intent
Close... Switchblades are illegal. Gravity knives is a stretch.
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5)rope - #1 weapon of choice in all strangling deaths, and something we should regulate due to the possible accidental "mis-firing" and subsequent entanglement in said weapon, thereby leading to death


See, there are many things that can kill you in this world, some more dangerous than others.  These things CAN kill if criminals are allowed to have them.  They are safe if in the hands of law-abiding citizens (although an accidental "discharge of the above items, as well as others not named here, has been known to occur).  

You see no need for them, although many others do see a need, if only to satisfy the urge to possess it.  You CANNOT legislate personal responsibility, and this is yet one more attempt to do so.  You wish to have the criminal-minded among us conform to your laws, when by definition, the criminal is the person for whom bans and laws will be scoffed at and disregarded.  When you understand the definition of the word criminal, you will be well on your way to understanding why bans will only ensure the law-abiding citizen will be complying, while the criminal uses the ban as an opportunity to be one of a minority capable of forcing their will on those who have complied.
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Well other than to mount them (Which is still bull in my opinion) there isn't any other reason to own them but to raise some hell.
Please stick to ensuring that your VIEWS do not infringe upon my RIGHTS.  I may have to ask for a ban on your free speech. ::)

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2004, 04:29:55 pm »
Only the most ridiculous of fanatics does not believe in gun control.  I suspect that everyone here believes that many weapons should be banned -- illegal to sell, illegal to buy, illegal to own.  Grenades, Sarin Gas, Bazookas, land mines, C-4.  

The constitution doesn't guarantee the right to bare guns, but the right to bare arms.  Certainly, all of those weapons listed above would be considered arms, as well as dozens of others that we would all agree should not be available for sale or purchase.  And if the second amendment entirely prohibits the government from interfering with the trade of arms, that restriction on the government powers would apply to all of those weapons as well as assault rifles.  But everyone here, including the gun nuts, should understand that the rights in the second amendment, like the rights in every other amendment, are not absolute.  There are exceptions to freedom of speach, religion, press, jury trial, search and seizure, speedy trial, etc.

I suspect that we all believe in arms (gun) control.  We just draw our respective lines in different places.  
« Last Edit: September 14, 2004, 04:35:36 pm by shmokes »
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2004, 06:30:40 pm »
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Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

I respectfully disagree. Guns do kill people. For every story about someone defending him/herself with a gun, there are probably twenty stories about four-year-old girls accidentally killing themselves with guns, or "heat of the moment" type killings that wouldn't happen if they didn't have guns, or people shooting their own kids coming through the window, or people blowing away drunken, lost Scotsmen who are knocking at the door. That's why there are no guns at my house and my kids aren't allowed to go to anyone's house where there is a gun.

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is poppycock.

perfectly said. You just saved me typing all that in. :)

I understand target shooting as a sport, I did it in the RAF cadets. I enjoy shooting rifles and guns at targets. It's a skill.

But why anybody other than people who use them in the military would actually want, or should be allowed to own a firearm is beyond me.

(and don't give me that 'it's so we can defend ourselves and our country,and take our country back from an opressive government' crap... you have that now and i dont see any of you taking to the streets)
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2004, 06:47:03 pm »
But why anybody other than people who use them in the military would actually want, or should be allowed to own a firearm is beyond me.
See my statement :)

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2004, 07:15:43 pm »
Actually, you know what is going to piss me off.  Having a ban on assault rifles or not isn't going to change anything.  It isn't going to make crime go up or down.  Criminals will use whatever weapons they have available.  You could still get assault rifles even during the ban, you just had to work hard for it.

What's going to piss me off is the first crime that is committed with an assault rifle they will blame on the ban lift.  That if the ban was still in place the crime would not have happen.  Yeah, whatever.  The person would have used a normal gun then.  Wouldn't make a difference if the crime would have happened or not.

The only thing it will effect is the number of crimes now commited with assault rifles.  But the crime would have still taken place.  A normal rifle you can buy is just as dangerous.

Now, if oyu made the guns and the ammo used for the guns (NATO rounds, etc..) expensive to the public that would be a different story.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2004, 07:38:01 pm »
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I understand target shooting as a sport, I did it in the RAF cadets. I enjoy shooting rifles and guns at targets. It's a skill.

I do too. I also enjoy owning my own weapons. Did the cadets let you customize a weapon till it fit you like a glove? I can do so with any of mine.

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But why anybody other than people who use them in the military would actually want, or should be allowed to own a firearm is beyond me.

It's about self-determination. Our constitution recognizes the right to bear arms as a natural right, like free speach or public assembly. It's not a privilege granted by the government, therefore it cannot be taken away. Since our populace is so well armed, a government that tried such a thing would be deposed.

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(and don't give me that 'it's so we can defend ourselves and our country,and take our country back from an opressive government' crap... you have that now and i dont see any of you taking to the streets)

We're a pretty tolerant bunch, and our government doesn't have the brass to try and outlaw our weapons outright.

This does get me thinking though.

There's been a million man march, and a million mom march and nobody paid any attention.
I wonder if they would notice if a million armed citizens marched on Washington. We have both the manpower and firepower to assemble 10 times that. ;)

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2004, 09:36:25 pm »

I understand target shooting as a sport, I did it in the RAF cadets. I enjoy shooting rifles and guns at targets. It's a skill.

But why anybody other than people who use them in the military would actually want, or should be allowed to own a firearm is beyond me.

Look at your first paragraph. You answered your own question. In my case, I DO target shoot (more specifically I shoot competition, Service Rifle Class) The so-called "assult" rifle known as the AR-15 is currently the top dog in this class because of its inhearent accurate shooting attributes. The number two rifle in this class is the M1A, another rifle that is often mistakenly referred to as an assult rifle.

Secondarily, my AR can be used in a self-defense situation, if nessessary. I probably won't ever need it, but I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. It does give me a firepower advantage over the typical criminal. I wouldn't have it any other way. If I end up in a situation where I have no other choice but to defend myself and my loved ones, I damn sure don't believe in making it a fair fight. I'll take any advantage I can get.

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(and don't give me that 'it's so we can defend ourselves and our country,and take our country back from an opressive government' crap... you have that now and i dont see any of you taking to the streets)

OK, so defense isn't a legitamate reason? Since when? One of the rights you are granted in this country is the right to defend yourself, your family, and your property (amoung other things). An armed population is a safeguard against an opressive government, it keeps the politicians honest, if you will. True, a loosely-organized band of armed citizens would have little chance against an army such as the one the US has, but that scenerio also doesn't take into account the troops that will refuse to take up arms against their fellow citizens and the general political sucide that politicians that tried to force the armed forces upon the citizens of this country would face.  I simply don't think there's too many politicians out there that will see the good in having to kill millions of Americans and and armed populace forces them to take that into account.

And the whole 'opressive government' thing, that's a matter of opinion. Our government is nowhere near as opressive as a great majority of the governments out there. Things would have to get much orse, in my opinion, before anyone's going to take to the street.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2004, 09:45:11 pm »
To everybody who 'doesn't see the need' to own arms, consider this:

The Bill of Rights is a collection of 'rights' not 'needs' there is nothing outlined there that is absolutely nessessary to anyone's survival. All of it, however, is important to the preservation of America and the type of country that she was intended to be. You could take every one of those rights away and you'd still have a country. It just wouldn't be America.

You have no 'need' for the right to free assembly or speach.

You have no 'need' for the right to be free of self-incrimination.

You have no 'need' for the right to be free from illegal search and seizure.

(yo uget the idea)

It's not about your 'needs', its about your rights. There's a huge difference between the two. Any loss of rights, ANY rights, should be something that each and every one of us should take very seriously. A lot of time, effort, and blood went into securing those rights and, once they're gone, we'll pay hell getting them back.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2004, 10:41:55 pm »
To everybody who 'doesn't see the need' to own arms, consider this:

The Bill of Rights is a collection of 'rights' not 'needs' there is nothing outlined there that is absolutely nessessary to anyone's survival. All of it, however, is important to the preservation of America and the type of country that she was intended to be. You could take every one of those rights away and you'd still have a country. It just wouldn't be America.

You have no 'need' for the right to free assembly or speach.

You have no 'need' for the right to be free of self-incrimination.

You have no 'need' for the right to be free from illegal search and seizure.

(yo uget the idea)

It's not about your 'needs', its about your rights. There's a huge difference between the two. Any loss of rights, ANY rights, should be something that each and every one of us should take very seriously. A lot of time, effort, and blood went into securing those rights and, once they're gone, we'll pay hell getting them back.


Amen, brother.  I couldn't have said it any better.  If that makes me a "gun nut", so be it.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2004, 11:57:58 pm »
So does that include rocket propelled grenades or shoulder-fired surface-to-air missile launchers?  Does it include weaponized anthrax or sarin gas?

It's a cop-out to hide behind the second amendment.  It's like saying that not allowing cars on the road that aren't "street legal" is taking away your ability to drive.

THESE RIGHTS ARE NOT ABSOLUTE!!!

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You have no 'need' for the right to free assembly or speach.
The Supreme Court has upheld time-and-place laws for speech, such as those prohibiting protestors from coming within set distances from abortion clinics and people entering and exiting those clinics.  Protestors must apply for protesting permits.  Slander and Libel are illegal.  Physically threatening people is illegal.  The FCC censors television and radio stations.  In 2003 the Florida Supreme Court ruled that a devout Muslim woman would not be allowed to wear her full-faced veil in her drivers license picture, even though she belongs to a centuries old religion which forbids her to show her face to strangers or men outside her immediate family.

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You have no 'need' for the right to be free of self-incrimination.

Illinois v. Perkins (1990) - Supreme Court ruled that police officers may pose as prisoners to interrogate other prisoners without reading them Miranda warnings.  Coerced Self-incrimination obtained in this way is admissible in court.

Brown v. Illinois (1975) - Supreme Court ruled that confessions may be admissible even when they were preceeded by an illegal search and seizure (the confession, of course, would probably not have occurred if the police didn't already have the evidence they obtained illegally)

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You have no 'need' for the right to be free from illegal search and seizure.

U.S. v. Montoya de Hernandez (1985) - The Supreme Court ruled that people at borders may be subjected to warrantless searches without any requirement of reasonable suspicion.

New Jersey v. T.L.O. (1985) - The Supreme Court ruled that minors are not protected by the 4th Amendment to the same degree as adults. (A high school student was forced to comply with a warrantless search of her purse, looking for marijuana)

Illinois v. Wardlaw (2000) - The Supreme Court ruled that running in a high crime neighborhood is enough to justify a stop and initial warrantless search by police.

Carroll v. U.S. (1925) - The Supreme Court ruled that cars do not enjoy the same 4th Amendment protection from search & seizure as houses and offices. (Cops stopped and searched the car without a warrant looking for alcohol -- this was during prohibition)


I'm sorry, I'm sure this is dull lesson in constitutional law, but I tried to say all this in broader terms just a few posts ago and it seems to have been ignored.  The protections in the Bill of Rights are extremely important, but they have to be balanced.  You can't let people sacrifice virgins and drink their blood in order to not infringe on their freedom of religion.  

Some weapons HAVE TO BE BANNED.  You might make a compelling argument (though I don't know how) that assault rifles do not reach this level, but clearly there is a threshold as to what weapons can be legal.  Please refer to the list of weapons at the beginning of this post.  Would you argue that a nuclear briefcase bomb cannot be outlawed because of the 2nd amendment?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2004, 12:09:19 am by shmokes »
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2004, 01:08:07 am »
Actually, if you can get a permit from The Nuclear Regulatory Comission, there is no law against owning a properly liscenced Nuclear device of any kind.


Yes, I'm being a smarta$$, I get what you are saying.

I must admit that if you are ever put in a situation where someone points a gun at you, it completely changes your outlook on gun control.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2004, 01:12:38 am by Mameotron »

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #45 on: September 15, 2004, 01:17:05 am »
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Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
I respectfully disagree. Guns do kill people. For every story about someone defending him/herself with a gun, there are probably twenty stories about...
That's just irresponsible and emotional talk coming forth.  You say "probably", have absolutely nothing to back up that statement and can only fall back on "PROBABLY".  If you think that there are 20 stories about THE GUN killing people (rather than the people using a gun to kill people, including themselves) you'd also have to believe that the news is just supressing these stories.  That argument is beyond reason

"And the National Rifle Association says that, 'Guns don't kill people, people do,' but I think the gun helps, you know? I think it helps. I just think just standing there going, 'Bang'! That's not going to kill too many people, is it? You'd have to be really dodgy on the heart to have that�"

-Eddie Izzard, "Dressed to Kill"
Is this kind of like standing there going "Stab, stab, stab" not killing too many people with knives?  Please.  If someone intends to kill someone, they will search for a weapon.  Whether it's a knife, gun, rope, baseball bat....they will use SOMETHING.  Because THEY chose to use a gun should never mean that Joe Law-follower should have his ability to purchase a similar item taken away.  Punish the criminal, STOP treating the law-abiding worse than the law-breakers.

But why anybody ....would actually want, or should be allowed to own a firearm is beyond me.
People used to be killed for being a witch because the things they did "were beyond me" to those who couldn't figure out what they were doing.  Does your "logic" advocate that we should go back to doing that?  Just because it's beyond YOU doesn't mean legislate away the ability of law-abiding citizens to purchase these items.  They become detrimental when those who would break the very laws written to stop the use of those items do exactly that.

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(and don't give me that 'it's so we can defend ourselves and our country,and take our country back from an opressive government' crap... you have that now and i dont see any of you taking to the streets)
I guess REASON and the capability to follow the law DOES make a difference, hey?!? ::)  What's next, are you going to tell me I should "rise up and fight" when the price of toilet paper increases due to the "oppressive government" regulations force this price increase?  I see many who protest this war, and I certainly don't see them taking to the streets with guns and pitchforks either.  That line of reasoning is beyond belief.  


Shmokes, I agree that we all believe in SOME form of control, such as I don't need a Patriot missile or a nuclear briefcase.  You make a valid point there.  My problem is with people who would say that a ban on certain types of weapons will keep us safer.  When compared to other death factors, this ban wasn't/isn't justified, unless we as a society are willing to go along with a ban on all other items that kill in the same (or higher) ratios.  When you stop to think that that would mean banning cars (ANY car, not just SUV's) and other variously extreme examples, then it becomes easier to see why so many don't agree with a start on the "ban parade" with assault weapons.  Pandora's Box comes to mind.


Floyd10 (james), I found your replies to be very hard to follow.  Could you elaborate, or further flesh out your replies.  It seems some of them don't apply to the parts you are replying to.  Can ya help a brutha out? :P
« Last Edit: September 15, 2004, 01:43:39 am by DrewKaree »
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #46 on: September 15, 2004, 12:48:53 pm »
There is a difference between a "BAN" and "regulated".

Like Banning cigarettes would be very upsetting to about 40% of the population.  But nobody has a problem with "regulated" use and sale of cigarettes.

It's mostly the "BAN" thing people have a problem with.

The two concepts shouldn't be confused. Only fanatics think that things should be "BANNED".
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #47 on: September 15, 2004, 02:35:50 pm »
If someone intends to kill someone, they will search for a weapon.  Whether it's a knife, gun, rope, baseball bat....they will use SOMETHING.  

That's nonsense.  You're lumping all gun-violence into the relatively small context of premeditated murder with motive.  The gun facilitates it.  Your argument is like saying, "Student aid doesn't increase the number of people who choose to go to school, befcause when someone really WANTS to go to school they will find some way to do it."  But, of course, the easier you make something -- the more accessible you make something -- the more that thing is going to happen.  It is astronomically more difficult to kill someone (especially to kill someone and get away with it) with any of those other weapons you mentioned (knife, gun, rope, bat).

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Shmokes, I agree that we all believe in SOME form of control, such as I don't need a Patriot missile or a nuclear briefcase...  

...so we're back on need, now?  How do you know you'll never need a rocket-propelled grenade launcher?  What if we are occupied?  They certainly have been useful for Iraqi resistance fighters...  And I thought your side believed that this was about a right to own these weapons, not about a need.

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When you stop to think that that would mean banning cars (ANY car, not just SUV's)

Ah...the slippery slope.  Ban assault rifles and what's next?  Forks?  Penicillin?  The problem is, these things don't exist in a vacuum.  We balance their overall effect on society.  Do cars kill people?  Yes.  Do they do anything else that significantly affects our society?  I think maybe they do.  Do guns kill people?  Yes.  Do they serve other, useful purposes?  Sure, of course.  But we "ban" cars all the time.  Some cars are not allowed to be driven on U.S. roads (this amounts to an all-out ban), some people are not allowed to drive cars (very young, very old, blind, etc.).  Cars are required to meet certain safety standards before they can be sold.

People, I think, tense up and dig their hills in whenever they hear the words "gun control" when, in fact, they truly do believe in gun control.  But since they automatically switch to defend-to-the-death mode any time someone suggests changes in gun regulation it makes them unable to step outside the box and say, "okay...I do actually believe in regulation.  With that said, maybe I should actually give some thought into what amount of regulation is best instead of obstinately claiming that all gun control is bad."

I don't think all guns should be banned outright.  Many liberals do, and I think they suffer from the same ideological mental block as the "gun-nuts".  They refuse to actually apply any meaningful analysis to the issue.  One side says, "GUNS KILL," and the other side says, "PEOPLE KILL," and niether one can see the forest for the trees.  Maybe, and I'm just throwing this out, but just maybe it's a little of both.  
« Last Edit: September 15, 2004, 02:37:05 pm by shmokes »
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #48 on: September 15, 2004, 03:23:48 pm »
Well What Im saying is, not everything you've said is entirely true. I listed reasons... I dont memorize my posts...

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2004, 04:17:20 pm »
unfortunetly for me I live in shithole massachusetts..
most if not all the assault weapons no longer banned by federal law have been banned permanently here under state law..its ridiculous...

shame so many people in the country cant throw away their freedom fast enough....


« Last Edit: September 15, 2004, 04:24:07 pm by DYNAGOD »
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #50 on: September 15, 2004, 04:40:13 pm »
So does that include rocket propelled grenades or shoulder-fired surface-to-air missile launchers?  Does it include weaponized anthrax or sarin gas?

It's a cop-out to hide behind the second amendment.  It's like saying that not allowing cars on the road that aren't "street legal" is taking away your ability to drive.

THESE RIGHTS ARE NOT ABSOLUTE!!!

That was my point.

(BTW- the whole RPG, SAM, nuke arguement is the usual cop-out that I always see in these arguements. You seem to be a well-read guy, look up the miller case and how it defined 'arms' as it applies to the 2nd)

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The Supreme Court has upheld time-and-place laws for speech, such as those prohibiting protestors from coming within set distances from abortion clinics and people entering and exiting those clinics.  Protestors must apply for protesting permits.  Slander and Libel are illegal.  Physically threatening people is illegal.  The FCC censors television and radio stations.  In 2003 the Florida Supreme Court ruled that a devout Muslim woman would not be allowed to wear her full-faced veil in her drivers license picture, even though she belongs to a centuries old religion which forbids her to show her face to strangers or men outside her immediate family.

And this equates to a 'need' for free speech how?

Quote

Illinois v. Perkins (1990) - Supreme Court ruled that police officers may pose as prisoners to interrogate other prisoners without reading them Miranda warnings.  Coerced Self-incrimination obtained in this way is admissible in court.

Brown v. Illinois (1975) - Supreme Court ruled that confessions may be admissible even when they were preceeded by an illegal search and seizure (the confession, of course, would probably not have occurred if the police didn't already have the evidence they obtained illegally)

See above. These are not 'needs', they're rights.

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U.S. v. Montoya de Hernandez (1985) - The Supreme Court ruled that people at borders may be subjected to warrantless searches without any requirement of reasonable suspicion.

New Jersey v. T.L.O. (1985) - The Supreme Court ruled that minors are not protected by the 4th Amendment to the same degree as adults. (A high school student was forced to comply with a warrantless search of her purse, looking for marijuana)

Illinois v. Wardlaw (2000) - The Supreme Court ruled that running in a high crime neighborhood is enough to justify a stop and initial warrantless search by police.

Carroll v. U.S. (1925) - The Supreme Court ruled that cars do not enjoy the same 4th Amendment protection from search & seizure as houses and offices. (Cops stopped and searched the car without a warrant looking for alcohol -- this was during prohibition)

Still not a 'need'. We're still in rights-land here.
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I'm sorry, I'm sure this is dull lesson in constitutional law, but I tried to say all this in broader terms just a few posts ago and it seems to have been ignored.  The protections in the Bill of Rights are extremely important, but they have to be balanced.  You can't let people sacrifice virgins and drink their blood in order to not infringe on their freedom of religion.  

You're doing very well here. I'm in complete agreement.

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Some weapons HAVE TO BE BANNED.  You might make a compelling argument (though I don't know how) that assault rifles do not reach this level, but clearly there is a threshold as to what weapons can be legal.  Please refer to the list of weapons at the beginning of this post.  Would you argue that a nuclear briefcase bomb cannot be outlawed because of the 2nd amendment?

If you followed through with your legal research, you'd already have your answer. 'Arms' as defined by [i[US vs. Miller[/i] (1939) defines arms outside such broad terms. I believe it distills down to no expectation to the right to own weapons above and beyond that issued to the average infantryman. (I'm sure our more knowledgeable members can abridge this interpertation as nessessary. I'll not have time to delve into it for a couple of days) That ends any talk of rocket launchers, heavy weapons, and even nukes.

Note that this doesn't even assure your access to actual "assult rifles" (select-fire weapons), as they were put under heavy restriction during the same time period. (although I do not know if it is the same action, I believe that was in 1934)

I'm not hiding behind anything. I'm standing up for one of the same rights that are so important, until it comes to the second.


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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2004, 04:42:19 pm »
Actually, if you can get a permit from The Nuclear Regulatory Comission, there is no law against owning a properly liscenced Nuclear device of any kind.


Yes, I'm being a smarta$$, I get what you are saying.

I must admit that if you are ever put in a situation where someone points a gun at you, it completely changes your outlook on gun control.

Get a permit for a nuclear bomb, post it here.  i want to see what one of those looks like.  ;D

It sure changed MY view of gun control. I now believe in equalizing the odds.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2004, 05:17:57 pm by tep0583 »

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2004, 04:56:49 pm »
Well What Im saying is, not everything you've said is entirely true. I listed reasons... I dont memorize my posts...
ok, that's part of debating, you don't believe everything I said is true, and then you list reasons for why you believe what you believe.  I'm not attacking you here, I just can't make sense of your reasons, as they don't seem to fit the points you selected, or they are simplistic statements that aren't substantive.  I'll give you an example or two:

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After you've given us that foolproof plan, then you can tell me all your reasons for why ELSE we shouldn't be allowed to have them, but until then, we, as americans, are free (as in land of the free?) to purchase things that may be detrimental to our health and to the health of others.  I'll gladly give you the ability to ban all guns, no matter the type, when you ban:
WHOAH WHOAH WHOAH! slow down!

this is what I mean by not substantive.  Please realize I'm not looking to offend, it just doesn't have meaning unless you flesh out your words better.  I'm sure you DO mean to say something here, I just can't see what it is.  That's why I ask for clarification - to further the debate, rather than guess what your intentions are

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1) alcohol (one of the top causes of traffic fatalities, right? AND bad for you!)

2) smoking of all kinds, ESPECIALLY the left-handed cigarettes, since second-hand smoke is attributed to cancer deaths in non-smokers
Not true. Marijuana (which is relatively harmless), Crack, Cocaine, Extacy, Shrooms, and more I'm not mentioning.
and here's an example of what I mean by hard to follow, please clarify.  You list 2 points and respond with "not true".  What exactly do you believe to be not true, and the second sentence seems as if you want to make a point with it, but there's nothing you are attaching those words to cohesively.  That's all I'm saying.

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4)knives of ANY kind - second-most preferred weapon used in armed robberies, and something that can kill, if used by someone with criminal intent
Close... Switchblades are illegal. Gravity knives is a stretch.
what exactly is close?  


As far as memorizing your posts, I understand the sarcasm in that.  It'd be foolish to think that you WOULD memorize your over-600 posts.  What's not foolish is me asking you to go back, re-read what you said, and help me understand what you mean.  

Here's MY insertion of sarcasm:  Yeah, I guess you'd rather memorize your posts than to read what you wrote.

That's all I'm asking for james - not a personal attack on you, you seem to be a good young $#!7...you are probably a very personable human being.  It would behoove you to polish your debate skills, since others may look to you as "Cool guy I need to listen to".  If I can get you to see reason, *slyly insert pointed jab here* maybe I'll be able to get you to become a nice normal Republican, after all.  
 ;)

I'd have you over and buy you a beer to calm you down, but you'd turn me in for obtaining alcohol for a minor...commie ;)
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #53 on: September 15, 2004, 05:17:13 pm »
If someone intends to kill someone, they will search for a weapon.  Whether it's a knife, gun, rope, baseball bat....they will use SOMETHING.  

That's nonsense.  You're lumping all gun-violence into the relatively small context of premeditated murder with motive.  The gun facilitates it.  Your argument is like saying, "Student aid doesn't increase the number of people who choose to go to school, befcause when someone really WANTS to go to school they will find some way to do it."  But, of course, the easier you make something -- the more accessible you make something -- the more that thing is going to happen.  It is astronomically more difficult to kill someone (especially to kill someone and get away with it) with any of those other weapons you mentioned (knife, gun, rope, bat).

Yeah, because everybody knows how easily knife and rope purchases can be traced back to someone.

When it comes down to it, if I really want you dead, my ability to get a gun isn't going to matter one whit. If I have half a brain and plan the act, I have a better than average chance of getting away with it. The typical criminal in the country gets caught because they're stupid, not because of the weapon they used.
 
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...so we're back on need, now?  How do you know you'll never need a rocket-propelled grenade launcher?  What if we are occupied?  They certainly have been useful for Iraqi resistance fighters...  And I thought your side believed that this was about a right to own these weapons, not about a need.

Unless you're purposely lumping us into one big catagory ("you know, THOSE people"), you've got him confused with me. Oh, and for the record, it was someone on the side you're arguing who pulled out the "need" assessment. I merely explained that a "need" basis for our rights was going to leave us somewhat short of rights.

Yes, gun ownership, like everything else in the Bill of Rights , is a right.


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Ah...the slippery slope.  Ban assault rifles and what's next?  Forks?  Penicillin?  The problem is, these things don't exist in a vacuum.  We balance their overall effect on society.  Do cars kill people?  Yes.  Do they do anything else that significantly affects our society?  I think maybe they do.  Do guns kill people?  Yes.  Do they serve other, useful purposes?  Sure, of course.  But we "ban" cars all the time.  Some cars are not allowed to be driven on U.S. roads (this amounts to an all-out ban), some people are not allowed to drive cars (very young, very old, blind, etc.).  Cars are required to meet certain safety standards before they can be sold.

Guns are not exactly the same as cars, and consequently, direct comparisons are difficult at best. Unsafe (or defective) guns are handled as most other products (cars being one of the notable exceptions) and are handled as civil matters, in most cases.

As far as the comparison to unqualified drivers goes, we do not allow those with a history of serious mental problems or criminal histories own guns. Like drivers, the young and those who are found to be unable to accept the responcibility to own a gun are stripped of their right to own them. Unforturnately, there is no good way to deturmine who will and will not turn to grime before they do so. Also, those who suffer from mental problems sometimes deveolp these problems over time. (much the same way as people's driving ability declines as they age).

Why should normal, law-abiding citizens have to pay for the actions of others. That's akin to pulling everybody's driving rights at 65, reguardless of their ability.

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People, I think, tense up and dig their hills in whenever they hear the words "gun control" when, in fact, they truly do believe in gun control.  But since they automatically switch to defend-to-the-death mode any time someone suggests changes in gun regulation it makes them unable to step outside the box and say, "okay...I do actually believe in regulation.  With that said, maybe I should actually give some thought into what amount of regulation is best instead of obstinately claiming that all gun control is bad."

All gun control is not bad. Some is nessessary. I do have some problem with the assertation that we need more gun control, when we already have loads of it on the books already. Its another over-used phrase, but why not enforce  the laws already on the books, instead of imposing more restrictions on millions of lawful Americans?

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I don't think all guns should be banned outright.  Many liberals do, and I think they suffer from the same ideological mental block as the "gun-nuts".  They refuse to actually apply any meaningful analysis to the issue.  One side says, "GUNS KILL," and the other side says, "PEOPLE KILL," and niether one can see the forest for the trees.  Maybe, and I'm just throwing this out, but just maybe it's a little of both.  

I absolutely agree with you here. Well, except for the guns/people kill thing. In the final analysis, the gun is just a tool. No tool does anyhing without some intelligence to operate it.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #54 on: September 15, 2004, 06:47:41 pm »
And this equates to a 'need' for free speech how?

Tep, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say here.  I was not trying to illustrate a 'need' for freedom of speech, but rather a 'need' for certain abridgements of freedom of speach in spite of the 1st Amendment.  Just the opposite, you see.

Same goes for all the other rights I listed there.  I was simply saying that in spite of the rights "guaranteed" in any of the Amendments, whether the ones that tend to favor the gun nuts (2nd) or the ones that favor the unpatriotic liberal fanatics (1st), there are limits that must be placed.  The references to court cases were simply illustrating some of the limits on various rights that already exits.  And it is a truncated list, to be sure.  

Also, you reiterated what Drew said about, "When it comes down to it, if I really want you dead, my ability to get a gun isn't going to matter..."  Once again, you are talking about premeditated murder with a motive, which accounts for a very small percentage of homocides.  Many people only kinda want someone dead.  Many people really want someone dead, but only for a few moments and after they cool down they're okay.  Many people don't particularly want someone dead, but want to take their money, and in the heat of the moment someone gets shot.  I agree that for the person who sets out on a planned murder the availability of assault rifles is probably not going to be a big concern.  

I know that associating nuclear bombs with 2nd Amendment protection is extreme, but the extreme example is used simply to illustrate how obvious it is to people on both sides of the issue that the 2nd amendment's "right to bare arms" does not prohibit the government entirely from regulating arms.  Once you can reel people in from a purely rhetorical obstinance of spouting, "2nd Amendment, 2nd Amendment!" a much more useful discussion, and perhaps solution/comprimise might be had.
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2004, 07:55:29 pm »
Blah blah blah
I'm afraid of guns
blah blah blah
Gun control is in place like most laws, to protect the stupid from hurting themselves and others.  

More people die from cars, than guns.  Getting hit by a car is deadlier than getting hit by a bullet.  This has been said 100 times before, but you're not listening so I'm saying it again.  Guns do not kill people...

It's not just guns, people are stabbed, strangled, and hit by a cars in moments of rage.  The people afraid of guns only know guns from the horror stories they see.  They will also see more stories about people getting hurt or killed in a car accident, than stories about people driving to their destination unharmed, but since they drive all the time they understand how safe cars can be.

Of course none of this matters because as of now the ban is dead, and I can buy all the guns and magazines I NEED.

What a beautiful sunset that was.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2004, 11:21:36 pm »
And this equates to a 'need' for free speech how?

Tep, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say here.  I was not trying to illustrate a 'need' for freedom of speech, but rather a 'need' for certain abridgements of freedom of speach in spite of the 1st Amendment.  Just the opposite, you see.

Same goes for all the other rights I listed there.  I was simply saying that in spite of the rights "guaranteed" in any of the Amendments, whether the ones that tend to favor the gun nuts (2nd) or the ones that favor the unpatriotic liberal fanatics (1st), there are limits that must be placed.  The references to court cases were simply illustrating some of the limits on various rights that already exits.  And it is a truncated list, to be sure.  

Right, but my arguements do not ceter on the needs of people to have these rights. It centers on the notion that these are rights that are granted to us and they sould not be taken for granted.

Limiting people's distance from an abortion clinic does nothing to hinder their freedom of speech. Its more of a public disturbance issue. These people still have the right to protest and the right to say anything they please. They do not, however, have the right to harass people in the process. It s the same thing that keeps PETA from harassing hunters in the woods.

They have the right to free speeh, but they do not have the right to impeede other's rights in the exercise of their rights.
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Also, you reiterated what Drew said about, "When it comes down to it, if I really want you dead, my ability to get a gun isn't going to matter..."  Once again, you are talking about premeditated murder with a motive, which accounts for a very small percentage of homocides.  Many people only kinda want someone dead.  Many people really want someone dead, but only for a few moments and after they cool down they're okay.  Many people don't particularly want someone dead, but want to take their money, and in the heat of the moment someone gets shot.  I agree that for the person who sets out on a planned murder the availability of assault rifles is probably not going to be a big concern.

I'd have to argue that the same applies to "heat of the moment" killings as well. The chances that you're going to have as "assult rifle" at the exact moment you decide you "want" to kill somebody has to be very slim. Once you go to get the rifle, it's premeditated. In these cases, the AWB "Ban" would have had no effect on the outcome whatsoever.

If you're arguing against CCW and handguns, I can se where this applies, but I simply cannot make the connection to military-style weapons. You're just not going to go everywhere with one slung on your back.

Robberies are already illegal. Someone who is gong to partake in that act probably isn't too concerned if their "assult rifle" is legal or not. (And, come on, like they'd be robbing someplace if they could afford one, in most cases, anyway)
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I know that associating nuclear bombs with 2nd Amendment protection is extreme, but the extreme example is used simply to illustrate how obvious it is to people on both sides of the issue that the 2nd amendment's "right to bare arms" does not prohibit the government entirely from regulating arms.  Once you can reel people in from a purely rhetorical obstinance of spouting, "2nd Amendment, 2nd Amendment!" a much more useful discussion, and perhaps solution/comprimise might be had.

It DOES prohibit government from regulating anything defined as 'arms' (now genarally accepted to be those weapons defined by US vs. Miller) by the 2nd. It very clearly states that the people's rights to own these sort of weapons "shall not be infringed". Any restrictions to the owenership of these arms counts as "infringement".

The whole point of the Bill of Rights was to provide a set of rights to the people that were to be "untouchable" to the government. They were not ment to be tampered with, which is the entire reason they were set down so specifically in the Constuition. I believe any weakening of these rights, even with good intentions, has the potential to weaken tham all. I've comprimised as much as I plan to. I see no use whatsoever in further restrictions, especially when current restrictions seen to be far too great a burden for the legal system. Anything further simply only infringes on the rights of  the law-abiding citizens of this country. That, to me, is very wrong and will not make anyone safer in the slightest way.  

That's my whole problem with "feel-good" legislation. It does nothing to address the real problems and punishes the innocent, everyday, lawful citizen. That leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2004, 11:40:22 pm »
Once again, you are talking about premeditated murder with a motive, which accounts for a very small percentage of homocides.
and the argument for this ban continues to focus on "a very small percentage" of weapons and how the end of the ban *use hysterical tone* will increase gun violence and deaths at an alarming rate.

I'm not just talking about premeditated murder.  Just watch several Cops episodes.  You'd almost certainly see an incident of knife violence, and I have seen someone die due to their stab wounds.  Are you telling me the redneck with the blood-stained wife beater planned that?  If that guy was so friggen intelligent, he'd have known that failure to brush his teeth leads to the loss of all his pearly whites (although he can now whistle like a madman through all the openings).

Blah blah blah
I'm afraid of guns
blah blah blah
That's gotta be the most smartass sarcastic and funny thing I've seen that I haven't said myself!  That's so friggen funny, I may show up in IL just to meet a guy as smart-ass as myself.  Good one.
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2004, 03:25:43 am »
It DOES prohibit government from regulating anything defined as 'arms' (now genarally accepted to be those weapons defined by US vs. Miller) by the 2nd. It very clearly states that the people's rights to own these sort of weapons "shall not be infringed". Any restrictions to the owenership of these arms counts as "infringement".

This is nonsensical.  If it's stated so "clearly" why do we need U.S. v. Miller to define arms are?  If a bazooka can be defined out of the term "arms" why can other weapons not suffer the same fate?  Are you suggesting that a well regulated militia could not make use of grenades, mines and missile launchers?  How can we provide freedom of the press and still provide fair trials?  How can we support the anti-establishment of religion in public schools, without abridging someones right to free exercise?

It's quaint to think of the Bill of Rights as black & white, but it's simply unworkable.  They should not be tossed about willy-nilly, but they are not as cut-and-dry as you suggest.

Quote
Blah blah blah
I'm afraid of guns
blah blah blah
That's gotta be the most smartass sarcastic and funny thing I've seen that I haven't said myself!  That's so friggen funny, I may show up in IL just to meet a guy as smart-ass as myself.  Good one.

You need some sleep, Drew  ;)
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2004, 05:23:21 am »
OK, now I'll jump into the whole Guns don't kill people argument.  I have to say that after carefully reading through this thread I believe that yes, we do need some form of gun control.  We do not need any innefectual "feel good" legislation that only further burdens the legal system.

For example, it is already a law everywhere that you have to be 18 to buy cigarettes.  In my state, the law now says that the PERSON who sells cigarettes to minors, not the establishment, gets fined for doing so.  The responsibility has been placed solely on the cashier.  So why did they just pass a law requiring cashiers to card people who appear to be under the age of 27?  This is worse than just nonsense, it clutters the judicial system and serves no real purpose.

And if you want to get real technical about the guns don't kill issue...

People only pull the trigger, they don't do the killing.  Let them off the hook.  The gun itself does no killing, either.  It just sends the bullet at the person.  It's the BULLET that does the actual killing, so let's make the bullet manufacturer liable for all gun related violence.  After all, guns are useless without the bullets.

That was, of course, an illustration to show how absurd that argument is.  The truth is that people are fully and solely responsible.  But today everybody wants unlimited rights and no responsibility for their actions.  It is this trend that offers us almost no other option but to increase controls.

I am glad the ban expired.  I was never for it in the first place.  I think that it was a meaningless piece of legislation, since everything on the ban could easily and legally be bought at any local gun show.  The prices didn't even go up much, either.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2004, 09:42:52 am »
It DOES prohibit government from regulating anything defined as 'arms' (now genarally accepted to be those weapons defined by US vs. Miller) by the 2nd. It very clearly states that the people's rights to own these sort of weapons "shall not be infringed". Any restrictions to the owenership of these arms counts as "infringement".

This is nonsensical.  If it's stated so "clearly" why do we need U.S. v. Miller to define arms are?  If a bazooka can be defined out of the term "arms" why can other weapons not suffer the same fate?  Are you suggesting that a well regulated militia could not make use of grenades, mines and missile launchers?  How can we provide freedom of the press and still provide fair trials?  How can we support the anti-establishment of religion in public schools, without abridging someones right to free exercise?


I thought it was quite sensical, considering my blood-alcohol level at the time of its writing.

The afore mentioned case defined arms as those weapons issued to your typical "grunt", for lack of better terms. Rocket launchers and the like are not simply handed out to each and every soldier. Only those with special training and jobs are issued such weapons. The same applies to tanks, planes, artillery,even nukes (which really are not issued). Note that, as far as I am aware other issued items , such are gernades are perfectly legal to own, just so long as you can find a source for them (good luck) and can afford their price + the destructive device tax ($200 PER round, as I understand it).

We didn't NEED anthing to define it, until a prosecuter took somebody (Miller) to court over a care pertaining to "arms". The court then clarified their interpertatin of the 2nd's definition of "arms", so that the law would be "clear" in the future.  (This IS my understanding as to the function of the courts.)  

Religion and schools are and easy one. Schools are run by the government and the government is strictly forbidden from establising a "national Religion". Establishing a religion in schools is, in effect, establishing a national religion.

Freedom of the press vs fair trials is covered. You cannot violate the rights of people to have a fair trial for the right to free press. (Just as I cannot use my rght to arm myself to force you to give up your right to not self-incriminate)

Quote
It's quaint to think of the Bill of Rights as black & white, but it's simply unworkable.  They should not be tossed about willy-nilly, but they are not as cut-and-dry as you suggest.

Yes, obviously they should be tossed OUT willy-nilly, based on whim, for the "greater good". The Bill of Rights is quite Black & White and was intended to be this way. Take the first, for example, it states you have the right to "peacably assemble". Yelling 'fire' in a crowded building is going to do nothing to enhance the "peacability" of the "gathering" and is thus, not covered by the first. This is the same way criminals are denied the ability to own arms. (felons forfit cirten Constuitional rights) .

Quote
Quote
Blah blah blah
I'm afraid of guns
blah blah blah
That's gotta be the most smartass sarcastic and funny thing I've seen that I haven't said myself!  That's so friggen funny, I may show up in IL just to meet a guy as smart-ass as myself.  Good one.

You need some sleep, Drew  ;)


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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2004, 10:08:08 am »
I respectfully disagree. Guns do kill people

Of course - thats what they're designed for.
If they could not be used to kill people, they'd be useless, and there;d be no amendment protecting our right to own and use them.



For every story about someone defending him/herself with a gun, there are probably twenty stories about four-year-old girls accidentally killing themselves with guns,

Indeed not.  There are fewer than 1000 accidental gun deaths per year; there are somewhere in the neighborhood og 1.5 million defensive gun uses per year.


That's why there are no guns at my house and my kids aren't allowed to go to anyone's house where there is a gun.

Thats your choice.
Dont presume to make that choice for me.
Also - if you arent teaching your kids how to effectively deal with and safely handle a gun, you;re depriving them of information thats essential to their safety and welfare.


But why anybody other than people who use them in the military would actually want, or should be allowed to own a firearm is beyond me.

Why anyone would want a tatoo is beyond me.
Why anyone would want a pierced nipple is beyond me.
That these things are beyond me isnt an argument against people being able to do these things.


and don't give me that 'it's so we can defend ourselves and our country,and take our country back from an opressive government' crap

The right to arms is all about the people having access to an effective means of defending themselves, individually or collectively, with deadly force.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #62 on: September 16, 2004, 10:14:39 am »
We do not need any innefectual "feel good" legislation that only further burdens the legal system.

Agree.
We need gun control laws that:
-Keep guns from criminals
-Do not infringe on the right to arms.



 So why did they just pass a law requiring cashiers to card people who appear to be under the age of 27?  This is worse than just nonsense, it clutters the judicial system and serves no real purpose.

Gun dealers are required to "card" gun byuers.


 It's the BULLET that does the actual killing, so let's make the bullet manufacturer liable for all gun related violence.  After all, guns are useless without the bullets.

Guns, bullets, etc, are inanimite.
They are the tool, not the actor.  The actor is the killer, the weapon is the tool with which he killed.


But today everybody wants unlimited rights and no responsibility for their actions.  It is this trend that offers us almost no other option but to increase controls.

Patently false.  No one argues that the right to arms has no boundaries.



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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #63 on: September 16, 2004, 10:28:04 am »
This is nonsensical.  If it's stated so "clearly" why do we need U.S. v. Miller to define arms are?

We dont "need" it, we "have" it.  There was a question if a certain weapon was protected by the 2nd, and the court creates a test to see if it (and any other weapon) was an "arm" under the 2nd.


If a bazooka can be defined out of the term "arms" why can other weapons not suffer the same fate?

Soem weapons are outside the scope of the amendment, as per the Miller test.  But, because of the Miller test, some weapons are CLEARLY "arms" under the 2nd.


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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #64 on: September 16, 2004, 11:18:15 am »
I found an interesting site to compare stats of crime/murder and a lot of other things between countries.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_wit_fir_cap
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #65 on: September 16, 2004, 11:56:48 am »
1) Guns don't kill people... people kill people...

but guns help!  Assault guns will help people who want to kill LOTS of people... well... both easier and more efficient.


2) What are assault weapons?

Guns that their only use is to kill people... made for military purposes.   They are slightly limited, but you can convert almost all on the list to fully automatic for less then 100bucks.



My question is this... For a presidant that pretends to want to fight terrorism... Don't these weapons really really help?


I personally think they are fine for most people.  I would love to own a few or just try a few at a gun range.  Would be fun.  But don't fool yourselfs.. I would NEVER take one hunting.  And I would NEVER use one for defense of my house (because the sound of a shotgun cocking is MUCH more impressive to get people to run out of your house.  They don't have any use other then for fun...

but they have a LOT of bad uses... that we should probably keep out of the hands (at a cheap price anyway).

I think we should just have a 5k tax on EVERY sale for assault weapons.  (even selling your current one to another person).    I personally think drug lords should be able to have them... Mainly because Miami Vice always had them, and I like to think my memories are real... even from TV.

I just want to make sure that the local drugdealer can't afford them... And the local dealer to the dealer can't afford more then one.


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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2004, 12:24:07 pm »
You are all making very good points and I've spent hours thinking about your views.


But seriously, does anyone know when Benelli will start selling their assault shot guns with collapsible stocks?

The Benelli web page is still saying:
Note: Civilian metal stocks are not collapsible.

The ban has expired people, I NEED my toys.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2004, 01:42:15 pm »
but guns help!  Assault guns will help people who want to kill LOTS of people... well... both easier and more efficient.

Given that the right to arms is all about the people having the means to kill other people, this means these weapons are exactly the sort of thing the 2nd protects.


Guns that their only use is to kill people... made for military purposes

If thats the case, why arent they used by any military anywhere?


They are slightly limited, but you can convert almost all on the list to fully automatic for less then 100bucks.

You cannot....  and if you did, you'd break federal law and commit a felony.


My question is this... For a presidant that pretends to want to fight terrorism... Don't these weapons really really help?

Help who?  the terrorists?
The guys that blow up buildings?


I would NEVER take one hunting

Why?  My M-14 is an excellent deer rifle.


And I would NEVER use one for defense of my house (because the sound of a shotgun cocking is MUCH more impressive to get people to run out of your house.

This is too many movies and too little experience talking.


I just want to make sure that the local drugdealer can't afford them... And the local dealer to the dealer can't afford more then one.

Drug dealers dont get their weapons from gun dealers.



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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2004, 03:30:32 pm »
It DOES prohibit government from regulating anything defined as 'arms' (now genarally accepted to be those weapons defined by US vs. Miller) by the 2nd. It very clearly states that the people's rights to own these sort of weapons "shall not be infringed". Any restrictions to the owenership of these arms counts as "infringement".

We didn't NEED anthing to define it, until a prosecuter took somebody (Miller) to court over a care pertaining to "arms". The court then clarified their interpertatin of the 2nd's definition of "arms", so that the law would be "clear" in the future.  (This IS my understanding as to the function of the courts.)  

Religion and schools are and easy one. Schools are run by the government and the government is strictly forbidden from establising a "national Religion". Establishing a religion in schools is, in effect, establishing a national religion.

Freedom of the press vs fair trials is covered. You cannot violate the rights of people to have a fair trial for the right to free press. (Just as I cannot use my rght to arm myself to force you to give up your right to not self-incriminate)

Quote
It's quaint to think of the Bill of Rights as black & white, but it's simply unworkable.  They should not be tossed about willy-nilly, but they are not as cut-and-dry as you suggest.

Yes, obviously they should be tossed OUT willy-nilly, based on whim, for the "greater good". The Bill of Rights is quite Black & White and was intended to be this way. Take the first, for example, it states you have the right to "peacably assemble". Yelling 'fire' in a crowded building is going to do nothing to enhance the "peacability" of the "gathering" and is thus, not covered by the first. This is the same way criminals are denied the ability to own arms. (felons forfit cirten Constuitional rights) .

Tep, I don't even know where to begin with this  ???  Half of my questions you answered were rhetorical, lol.  My point of listing all those exceptions to rights that are guaranteed by the Bill of Rights was not a challenge to see if you could actually come up with the justification for those exceptions, it was simply to illustrate that there ARE exceptions. ... oh for crying out loud, this is retarded.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2004, 03:34:18 pm by shmokes »
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2004, 07:33:50 pm »
ok, there are lots of 'for' arguments here... all saying guns dont kill people, and that if you wanted to kill someone you would.. whatever the weapon...

... so if that's true you shouldn't have any higher a percentage of murders in your country than anywhere else, right?

how come The States then has more murders per year for the population, than most countries out there?

and I'm including countries that have guns,  not just the ones that dont.

It is infinitly easier to shoot someone, than to physically plunge a knife in them, or kill them with your bare hands. The more removed from the victim you can be the easier it is. Especially for silly things like jilted lovers... where usuallly the worst that would happen without a gun is that they might get beat up.
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2004, 09:36:02 pm »
Well, yeah, maybe.  The US is no. 24 on the list actually.  Columbia is the leader. Russia is way up on the list.  The UK is No. 46.  

Check here:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap

Per capita murders anyway.
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2004, 09:59:07 pm »
ok, there are lots of 'for' arguments here... all saying guns dont kill people, and that if you wanted to kill someone you would.. whatever the weapon...

... so if that's true you shouldn't have any higher a percentage of murders in your country than anywhere else, right?


That might be true, ceteris paribus, but the fact that guns are legal here is not the only factor involved.  So your assertion is flawed.



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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2004, 10:51:43 pm »
ok, there are lots of 'for' arguments here... all saying guns dont kill people, and that if you wanted to kill someone you would.. whatever the weapon...

... so if that's true you shouldn't have any higher a percentage of murders in your country than anywhere else, right?
I'm not saying I did anything more than a cursory look into it, but perhaps you should take a look at the site fredster posted.  There's SO much more evidence out there you will come across if you simply take your blinders off and set your bias aside.  This guy started where you probably are, and through some research, saw where his theory was leading, and had the intestinal fortitude to change his mind based on the facts he could find.

Quote
how come The States then has more murders per year for the population, than most countries out there?
Your use of vague terms that gloss over or misdirect the reader speaks to your bias.  Your argument is that we have more MURDERS per year than MOST countries.  It's clearly not GUN-related murders, or you'd be crowing that from the highest peak, and even allowing for all murders, you still can't say we're tops in murder.  Your attempt to lump your statement into this weapons ban argument is feeble at best.

Quote
It is infinitly easier to shoot someone, than to physically plunge a knife in them, or kill them with your bare hands. The more removed from the victim you can be the easier it is. Especially for silly things like jilted lovers... where usuallly the worst that would happen without a gun is that they might get beat up.
After doing a bit more than just a cursory look into it the BBC, of all people (that's over in England, home of one of the "more prohibitively gun control" nations  ::) ::) )show how well a ban on weapons works.

Also, yet again, your "stand" against guns and your reasoning falls back on a term like "usually".  That's solid ground on which to base a position if ever I heard it. ::) Your example also isn't one of those "premeditated" crimes being bandied about, so let's think about it:  If there were no gun in the house of a jilted lover (due to this "ban" that most likely wouldn't apply to your example) you think he would give that beating, rather than getting a knife from the kitchen (unless you think that anyone who wouldn't allow guns in the house also wouldn't allow knives) and comitting the same murder?  After all, It is infinitly easier to shoot someone, than to physically plunge a knife in them, or kill them with your bare hands, so making it harder for them to kill would stop this crime???  

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2) eventually, they'll dig a hole and put the facts down there
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2004, 11:13:28 pm »
I do not own a gun but I do see it as ok for everyone else too.  I think it is important that they be handled correctly and with proper precautions.  I have never heard a story where the parents of a child that got killed by a gun said that child unlocked the gun and the ammo, then loaded it and shot it and killed themselves or another.

As many have stated it is a constiutional right and it is not outdated it is about responisbility.  

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P.S. While not having owned a gun I have shot both a 9mm pistol and a M-16 at Quantico (sp?) when I was a sophomore in highschool.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #74 on: September 17, 2004, 12:50:55 am »


They are slightly limited, but you can convert almost all on the list to fully automatic for less then 100bucks.

You cannot....  and if you did, you'd break federal law and commit a felony.



You are completely wrong.

If you have a basic knowledge of how an AR-15 works you can see how simple it is to convert it to full auto.  It could easily be done at home with basic tools, but as you pointed out, that would be illegal.

Theoretically speaking, it takes less than 5 minutes to swap out the parts and convert it back to semi.

It is very easy to find out how to do this.  Ask around at a gun show, talk to a few ex-military people, surf the net (I haven't done that, but it HAS to be posted somewhere).

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #75 on: September 17, 2004, 04:12:37 am »
We do not need any innefectual "feel good" legislation that only further burdens the legal system.

Agree.
We need gun control laws that:
-Keep guns from criminals
-Do not infringe on the right to arms.


The trick here is to figure out how to do this.  Criminals, by nature and by definition, tend to disobey laws.  We already have laws established.  I once worked with a guy who spent time in prison for armed robbery.  He is not allowed to own any kind of gun, ever again.  He still carries one.

Quote
 So why did they just pass a law requiring cashiers to card people who appear to be under the age of 27?  This is worse than just nonsense, it clutters the judicial system and serves no real purpose.

Gun dealers are required to "card" gun byuers.

You completely missed my point.  There is already too much redundant legislation, and we don't need any more.
There is a law saying you can't sell tobacco to anyone under the age of 18.  Why add another law that says you must check if they appear to be under 27?  That is completely useless and redundant.

Quote
 It's the BULLET that does the actual killing, so let's make the bullet manufacturer liable for all gun related violence.  After all, guns are useless without the bullets.

Guns, bullets, etc, are inanimite.
They are the tool, not the actor.  The actor is the killer, the weapon is the tool with which he killed.

Did you read the post you're quoting from?  In the very next paragraph I explained that this statement was an illustration of how silly that argument is.

Quote
But today everybody wants unlimited rights and no responsibility for their actions.  It is this trend that offers us almost no other option but to increase controls.

Patently false.  No one argues that the right to arms has no boundaries.

Once again you have missed the point.  I am using illustrations outside the gun control issue.  This refers to the general attitude people have today.  DrewKaree has started a thread addressing this very issue, using Dan Rather and the CBS News as a fine example (mainstream media "Rather" biased).
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« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 04:19:07 am by Mameotron »

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #76 on: September 17, 2004, 08:27:00 am »
I can see the point about jilted lovers shooting each other.  However, a lot of these murders we see are very violent.  If there was a breakdown I'd say that (and I'm speculating) that most were done with bare hands.

I once got in a lot of trouble watching TV.  My wife and her sister were with me and a news story came on about a man that stabbed his wife 17 times.

I said "wow, ONLY 17 times? he must have been tired"

At that point I was attacked.
(those of you married can related to that one).

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #77 on: September 17, 2004, 11:37:10 am »
I'm honestly not trying to make a point with this post, but does anyone have stastics on the number of assault rifle homocides/suicides/accidental deaths that were committed with a legally obtained assault rifle vs. those that were stolen/illegally obtained?  Or even those stats for any type of firearm?  Are those stats even tracked?  
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #78 on: September 17, 2004, 12:22:25 pm »
how come The States then has more murders per year for the population, than most countries out there?

According to that murder page, South Africa is number 2.
Hunky_artist doesn't your country control South Africa?

Doesn't your country also believe strict gun control laws?

Very interesting indeed.

Now a more important question.

Why is Benelli still refusing to sell American civilians collapsible stocks?!?!

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #79 on: September 17, 2004, 12:28:01 pm »

If you have a basic knowledge of how an AR-15 works you can see how simple it is to convert it to full auto.  It could easily be done at home with basic tools, but as you pointed out, that would be illegal.


Thats funny, because I have --intircate-- knowledge of the AR-15 and I KNOW it cant be done as you suggest.

You CAN geta full atuo sear and trigger group, but this requires the lowe receiver to be machined to accept it.   Somethign that you;re not going to do with hand tools.




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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #80 on: September 17, 2004, 12:29:40 pm »
I'm honestly not trying to make a point with this post, but does anyone have stastics on the number of assault rifle homocides/suicides/accidental deaths that were committed with a legally obtained assault rifle vs. those that were stolen/illegally obtained?  Or even those stats for any type of firearm?  Are those stats even tracked?  

Exactly none.

There have been NO crimes committed by a legally obtained assault rifle.

Zero.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #81 on: September 17, 2004, 05:36:29 pm »
According to that murder page, South Africa is number 2.
Hunky_artist doesn't your country control South Africa?

Doesn't your country also believe strict gun control laws?

Very interesting indeed.

umm.... no?

South Africa has been independant for  a loooong time.

And yes, we have strict gun control laws, and yes, we have less gun murders than you do.
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #82 on: September 17, 2004, 06:05:47 pm »
Im just thinking about how I started the first political post...

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #83 on: September 17, 2004, 06:23:14 pm »
as a Brit living in the UK - i am glad not to live in the USA

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #84 on: September 17, 2004, 06:36:16 pm »
as a Brit living in the UK - i am glad not to live in the USA

That's impossible!  I learned in school that everybody everywhere wanted nothing more than to live here.

LIAR!!!!  I WON'T BELIEVE IT!!!!
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #85 on: September 17, 2004, 06:56:14 pm »
Tep, I don't even know where to begin with this  ???  Half of my questions you answered were rhetorical, lol.  My point of listing all those exceptions to rights that are guaranteed by the Bill of Rights was not a challenge to see if you could actually come up with the justification for those exceptions, it was simply to illustrate that there ARE exceptions. ... oh for crying out loud, this is retarded.
Quote

Well, start anywhere you want. You have your views, I have my views. The difference being that mine are currently supported by the laws of the land, even if that does make me "retarted".

I withdrawl from these sort of things when people start resorting to name-calling.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #86 on: September 17, 2004, 07:17:19 pm »
ok, there are lots of 'for' arguments here... all saying guns dont kill people, and that if you wanted to kill someone you would.. whatever the weapon...

... so if that's true you shouldn't have any higher a percentage of murders in your country than anywhere else, right?

how come The States then has more murders per year for the population, than most countries out there?

and I'm including countries that have guns,  not just the ones that dont.

It is infinitly easier to shoot someone, than to physically plunge a knife in them, or kill them with your bare hands. The more removed from the victim you can be the easier it is. Especially for silly things like jilted lovers... where usuallly the worst that would happen without a gun is that they might get beat up.

Hmm......Let's see..... Say I want to kill "Joe". Say I don't want to make a lot of noise and draw a lot of attention to myself (and thus draw the attention of potential whitnesses), so I discount the whole "hail or bullets" approach. Instead, I observe "Joe's" routine for a couple of days and decide on a couple of isolated places that he goes to with some regularity. I then decide on the night I will do the "deed" and lay in wait for him.

All I have to do is get close to "Joe". It doesn't really matter how, but for our purposes, say I approach slowly and non-threateningly. I tell him I wanto to talk about our problems and the stun gun I have with me is nowhere in sight. After putting him at ease (or not, really, at this point his ego has already convinced him that I want no "trouble"), I bring the stun gun out and, before he knows what's happening, he's incapacitated and I have 10 minutes to do to him what I will. It wouldn't take much effort at all to slit his throat and I can dispose of the knife and stun gun anywhere, with little chance of them being traced back to me.

That's just one scinario and one that required a minimum of thought. Its execution would require a little more time, effort, and patience then using a gun, but it would yeald more sure results and attract far less attention to myself.

If I didn't want to put that much work into it, I oly have to know where my "target" will be at a general time. It isn't that hard to steal  an old car, although it would increase the chances of being caught.

The "easier" arguement doesn't hold that much water with me. It isn't that much easier. It certainly wouldn't stop it from happening.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #87 on: September 17, 2004, 07:18:13 pm »
Don't be sensitive.  I didn't call you retarded.  
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #88 on: September 17, 2004, 07:20:59 pm »
I once got in a lot of trouble watching TV.  My wife and her sister were with me and a news story came on about a man that stabbed his wife 17 times.

I said "wow, ONLY 17 times? he must have been tired"

At that point I was attacked.
(those of you married can related to that one).
If I were drinking something, it would have shot straight out of my nose!  ;D ;D

So, did you "ban" your wife from watching TV with you?  That would have probably solved the whole problem right there.
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #89 on: September 17, 2004, 07:24:46 pm »
Don't be sensitive.  I didn't call you retarded.  
Well then why did you call ME retarded?   ;)

You're not so nice...I'm taking my big red ball and going home....nener nener boo boo  :P
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #90 on: September 17, 2004, 07:29:02 pm »
Don't be sensitive.  I didn't call you retarded.  

Calling my arguement "retrarted" isn't doing the exact same to the reasoning behind it?

Perhaps I AM getting sensitive.

OK, let's simplify. What EXACTLY can you buy now that you could not buy last week, that makes any rifle more deadly?

What form of gun control is going to significantly reduce gun crime and why do background checks not accomplish this? (well, not satisfactorally enough for those caling for more)

At what point does everybody get to be happy?

At what point do I stop being treated like a criminal?



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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #91 on: September 17, 2004, 07:31:16 pm »
as a Brit living in the UK - i am glad not to live in the USA

And I am glad for you.

I am equally glad that you took time out of your busy day to take yet another swipe at the US.

My God, would there be ANY evil left in the world, if the sinister Americans went away?

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #92 on: September 17, 2004, 07:51:31 pm »
My God, would there be ANY evil left in the world, if the sinister Americans went away?
All forms of Religion would be next. (I use the words 'would be' because America is never going away, unlike the fading empires of Rome, and the UK)

So, in a way the USA isn't just protecting the world's supreme government, but it's protecting the world's supreme being.

God, Guts, and Guns, the three that set us free.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #93 on: September 17, 2004, 08:11:00 pm »
My God, would there be ANY evil left in the world, if the sinister Americans went away?
All forms of Religion would be next. (I use the words 'would be' because America is never going away, unlike the fading empires of Rome, and the UK)

So, in a way the USA isn't just protecting the world's supreme government, but it's protecting the world's supreme being.

God, Guts, and Guns, the three that set us free.

Maybe, maybe not. I see a lot inmodern America that make me wonder just how long we really have left.

(OH, BTW- nice way to slide the Nuge into the conversation)

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #94 on: September 17, 2004, 09:33:42 pm »
And yes, we have strict gun control laws, and yes, we have less gun murders than you do.
Interesting how your country's strict gun control laws haven't managed to stop murder-by-gun...and by the BBC's account, that number is increasing.  Since you haven't addressed it, I'll quote the article here.  Remember, this comes from your own country, not some "made up" American drivel:

Quote

"Sunday, 12 January 2003
 Gun crime has risen by 35% in a year, new Home Office figures show.

There were 9,974 incidents involving firearms in the 12 months to April 2002 - a rise from 7,362 over the previous year.

 That represents an average of 27 offences involving firearms every day in England and Wales, with guns fired in nearly a quarter of cases.

Overall crime in the year to September was up 9.3%, with domestic burglary up 7.9%, drugs offences up 12.3% and sex offences up 18.2%.

Home Office officials insisted, however, that the new system of including all crimes, whether there was supporting evidence or not, was responsible for some of the increases.

When that new recording system was taken into account, overall crime rose by 2%, they said, with burglary up 5%.

Home Office Minister John Denham also pointed to new data from the British Crime Survey - which includes crimes not reported to the police - which he called the most reliable indication of trends.

The survey put all crime down 7% in the year to September.

"The British Crime Survey shows crime has been falling since 1997 and the risk of being a victim is very low - around the same as 1981," he said.

The statistics come after the government this week announced a crackdown on gun crime with a series of plans to tighten firearms law.

And they are released ahead of high level talks with police, customs and community leaders on Friday about how to tackle gun crime, hosted by Home Secretary David Blunkett.

The latest gun crime figures are more than double the 4,903 firearms incidents recorded in 1997 when Labour first took power.

 The biggest increases are in the large metropolitan areas.

Robbery was up 13% on the adjusted figures.

But it did fall by 10% between July and September when the government's new efforts against street crime kicked in, said officials.

Earlier this week the government unveiled plans to introduce a five-year minimum jail sentence for anyone illegally possessing a firearm.

That was followed on Wednesday by plans to ban anyone carrying a replica or air weapon in a public place without a good reason, as well as new age limits.

Opposition parties have accused ministers of mounting a snap response to the New Year shooting in Birmingham in which two teenage girls died.

Conservative shadow home secretary Oliver Letwin dubbed the new recorded crime figures "truly terrible".

Mr Letwin said: "The only word for this is failure.

"The government's response of knee-jerk reactions and initiatives is not working and confused signals on sentences for burglary will not help either."

Mr Denham denied the government had rushed into new plans against gun crime.

He said said rising gun violence was only a small part of overall crime but was "desperately worrying", especially for the worst-affected areas.

Liberal Democrat spokesman Simon Hughes said the gun figures meant tougher targeting of gun-toting gangs was needed.

Mr Hughes added: "The overall crime picture is not a cause for complacency, but it is mercifully not a reason for shock headlines."

Speaking on Radio Five Live, Tory leader Iain Duncan Smith said some inner city areas were almost "lawless" following the growth of a gangs and guns culture.

And he said the rise in gun crime was linked to "the huge increase in the drugs culture that's taking place in the cities that's literally ripping apart the inner cities, breaking this fabric down".

Hundreds of people gathered on Wednesday for a candlelit vigil in Aston in memory of cousins Charlene Ellis, 18, and Letisha Shakespeare, 17, who were gunned down in a hail of bullets nearly a week ago.

Also on Thursday, a coroner opened and adjourned an inquest into the death of Charlene.

Mr Duncan Smith joined calls for people with information about the shootings.

"We do need co-operation with the police because we have got to catch these killers," he said. "They have committed an appalling crime."
It's reported that crime is falling, yet gun violence is increasing.  

Thank goodness you guys decided to be the guinea pigs for the rest of us so we could see how great it's working out for you ::)

Quote
rchadd - as a Brit living in the UK - i am glad not to live in the USA
You're not the only one.  I'm glad you don't live here.  One less vote for your point of view, although we DO love it when you visit...don't hesitate to do so...just change that money with the funny pictures on it to normal U.S. currency.  Bring danny_galaga with you when you visit....he's a hoot!
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Mameotron

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #95 on: September 18, 2004, 03:02:10 am »

If you have a basic knowledge of how an AR-15 works you can see how simple it is to convert it to full auto.  It could easily be done at home with basic tools, but as you pointed out, that would be illegal.


Thats funny, because I have --intircate-- knowledge of the AR-15 and I KNOW it cant be done as you suggest.

You CAN geta full atuo sear and trigger group, but this requires the lowe receiver to be machined to accept it.   Somethign that you;re not going to do with hand tools.


Well, we're not going to get anywhere with the "yes you can, no you can't" type of argument.  It's really a smaller issue in the whole gun ban argument anyway.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #96 on: September 18, 2004, 05:41:50 am »
I observe "Joe's" routine for a couple of days and decide on a couple of isolated places that he goes to with some regularity. I then decide on the night I will do the "deed" and lay in wait for him.

All I have to do is get close to "Joe". It doesn't really matter how, but for our purposes, say I approach slowly and non-threateningly. I tell him I wanto to talk about our problems and the stun gun I have with me is nowhere in sight. After putting him at ease (or not, really, at this point his ego has already convinced him that I want no "trouble"), I bring the stun gun out and, before he knows what's happening, he's incapacitated and I have 10 minutes to do to him what I will. It wouldn't take much effort at all to slit his throat and I can dispose of the knife and stun gun anywhere, with little chance of them being traced back to me.
 

Firstly... are you seriously trying to say that's not as easy as pulling a trigger?

But I wasn't talking about how easy it is physically... I'm talking aboutthe mental difficulty... it's easier to kill someone from afar than to hold a knife and push it, breaking their skin and through their insides... with your own hand. This has been well documented.


All forms of Religion would be next.

......one can only hope


because America is never going away, unlike the fading empires of Rome, and the UK

don't be so sure, when we ruled three quarters of the planet we thought the same (and have you seen how many countries are still part of the commonwealth? look for the british flags in other country's flags for just some of them)


So, in a way the USA isn't just protecting the world's supreme government, but it's protecting the world's supreme being.

You're kidding right? Now you think that the US is protecting GOD?

Jesus, you REALLY ARE up your own arses arent you
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #97 on: September 18, 2004, 10:50:24 am »

Well, we're not going to get anywhere with the "yes you can, no you can't" type of argument.  It's really a smaller issue in the whole gun ban argument anyway.

yes you can!!


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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #98 on: September 18, 2004, 12:28:27 pm »
So, in a way the USA isn't just protecting the world's supreme government, but it's protecting the world's supreme being.

Don't bring me into this Dartful.  I'm omnipotent.  What in my name makes you think I need or want your protection?
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #99 on: September 18, 2004, 09:43:13 pm »
It took a while for me to buy my last shotgun.  It took 3 hours for a background check to clear.

I had a concealed permit in IN.  I could go and get one anytime I wanted and carry it out.  They don't have that here in TN.  It took 6 weeks to get the permit, and I had to be fingerprinted.

I can see where guns can filter down, all a criminal has to do is steal them.  Or buy them from some private party after they have been purchased.  But if we are vigilant, we can keep the balance between our rights and our responsiblities.  When the government starts to believe that individuals can't manage their own lives and rights, then we are on that 'slippery slope'.  

The right to bare arms is a fundamental part of our consitution so we could rise up and fight if we hand to.  It's as fundamental as the freedom of speech.  I don't mind the limits and I don't mind the hassles of having them.  It's all part of it.

If we jump to change it, it could mean a lot of unintend consequences we didn't even imagine.

The Canadians might take up arms and invade.  

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #100 on: September 18, 2004, 10:07:06 pm »
drew, watch out! when i next visit the UK hunky artist and i are grabbing our stun guns, and then make our way to the states. then we'll observe your  routine for a couple of days and decide on a couple of isolated places that you go to with some regularity. we will  then decide on the night we will do the "deed" and lay in wait for you.

All we have to do is get close to you. It doesn't really matter how, but for our purposes, say we approach slowly and non-threateningly. I tell you I wanto to talk about our problems and the stun gun I have with me is nowhere in sight. After putting you at ease (or not, really, at this point your ego has already convinced you that I want no "trouble"), hunky artist brings the stun gun out and, before you can say 'move to cuba', you're  incapacitated and we have 10 minutes to do to you what we will. It wouldn't take much effort at all to slit your  throat and I can dispose of the knife and stun gun anywhere, with little chance of them being traced back to us.

aah, sod it. we'll just get some armalites from some shady character in that same alley and we'll gun you down in a drive-by  ;D

lock your women up too, i'm bringing my cupholders  :D
Dude, you're so dang funny sometimes, I WISHED you lived in the States so we could hang out, but then I wouldn't be able to tell you to move to Austra....Cuba  ;)  For what it's worth, I'd enjoy you coming over for a visit, but I don't think it'll be with Hunky Artist anytime soon.  He won't even answer the point I bring up about his country's foolish gun laws, so I doubt he'll be wanting to see me anytime soon, even if he DID have a stun gun.  8)


Quote from: shmokes link=board=6;threadid=24641;start=80#msg203687
Don't bring me into this Dartful.  I'm omnipotent.  What in my name makes you think I need or want your protection?
Quote
now, I may be a nut by all the standards you have for me, but I'd have to be TRULY insane to worship YOU on Sunday...unless you stood on a pedestal so that as I kneel at your feet I could look up your kilt. ;)  If your girlfriend caught me, would she beat me about the head and shoulders?


The Canadians might take up arms and invade.  
Your generalizations are SOOO frustrating, fredster.  You honestly think the FRENCH Canadians would do such a thing?  Jeez, man, tone it down  ;) ;)
You’re always in control of your behavior. Sometimes you just control yourself
in ways that you later wish you hadn’t

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #101 on: September 19, 2004, 11:28:39 am »
I respectfully disagree. Guns do kill people

Of course - thats what they're designed for.
If they could not be used to kill people, they'd be useless, and there;d be no amendment protecting our right to own and use them.

For every story about someone defending him/herself with a gun, there are probably twenty stories about four-year-old girls accidentally killing themselves with guns,

Indeed not.  There are fewer than 1000 accidental gun deaths per year; there are somewhere in the neighborhood og 1.5 million defensive gun uses per year.


According to the CDC statistics, 29523 people died by firearms in 2001. You are correct that less than 1000 died accidentally, there were 802 that year. However there were only 323 defensive gun uses resulting in death. Although this can't be quantified, many of the 11348 homicides by gun and the 16869 suicides by gun would not have happened if guns were more tightly regulated.

Guns kill people. And yes, cars kill people too. There were 43,987 traffic accident deaths in 2001. That's not too many more than guns. Don't you think that guns, killing roughly the same number of people as cars, should be regulated roughly equally? How about mandatory gun education just like driver's ed, strict licensing requirements just like a DMV, mandatory gun liability insurance just like car liability insurance? How about mandatory ballistics "fingerprinting"?

I am not advocating the banning of guns. I am advocating the regulation of a dangerous item that doesn't belong in the hands of children or the ignorant.

And please don't mix quotes from me with quotes from someone else. :)

EDIT: Tobacco and alcohol kill people too, in far larger numbers than guns and cars. Minors aren't allowed to use tobacco products for a very good reason. Perhaps by the time they turn 18 they will have enough sense not to get hooked on cigarettes. The drinking age is 21 (at least here in Texas) because kids that age are stupid and don't know how to drive, drunk or sober. But, cigarettes and alcohol should not be outlawed, just regulated.

My quote about a 20 to 1 ratio of accidental deaths versus lawful defensive gun use was about news stories rather than actual statistics. The ratio of actual deaths is less than three to one accidents to defenses. I'll try to find statistics about news stories.

Guns kill people. Cars kill people. Tobacco kills people. Alcohol kills people. And so do a lot of other things.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2004, 11:56:27 am by Buddabing »
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #102 on: September 19, 2004, 11:54:49 am »
What is the CDC doing with statistics about gun deaths?  Shouldn't that be ATF or something?  I suppose you could think of someone who wanted to buy an assault weapon as having some sort of mental disease   ;)
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #103 on: September 19, 2004, 11:58:10 am »
What is the CDC doing with statistics about gun deaths?  Shouldn't that be ATF or something?  I suppose you could think of someone who wanted to buy an assault weapon as having some sort of mental disease   ;)

Heh I guess they classify death as "the ultimate disease". :)
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #104 on: September 20, 2004, 08:27:13 am »
However there were only 323 defensive gun uses resulting in death.

And how many that didn't?  Its been estimate dby the USDOJ that in 97% of defensive gun uses, the weapon isnt fired.  If 1 in 20 firings results in a death (and thats AWFULLY high), thats over 200,000 DGUs/year.



Although this can't be quantified, many of the 11348 homicides by gun and the 16869 suicides by gun would not have happened if guns were more tightly regulated.

Tell me:
What 'tight regulation' would have stopped them?
And you admit your claim can't be quantified - of what use is it?



Don't you think that guns, killing roughly the same number of people as cars, should be regulated roughly equally?

I agree.   Treat guns just like cars:

-You dont need a license to buy a car.
-You dont need a license to own a car.
-You dont need a license to operate a car on private property.
-You dont need a license to transport a car on public property
-You dont need to register a car to own it.
-You dont need to register a car that is operated on private property.
-You dont need to register a can to transport it on public property.
-If you ARE licensed to drive on public property, that license is good in all 50 states on all (applicable) public property
-If your car IS registered for use on public property, the registration is good in all 50 states on all (applicable) public property.
-You only need to insure a car that you use (not transport) on public property.


How about mandatory ballistics "fingerprinting"?

Useless.   You fingerprint my gun, I'm changing the barrel.







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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #105 on: September 20, 2004, 08:42:31 am »
By comparison, the flu kills 36,000 Americans a year.

Should the flu shot be manditory?
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #106 on: September 20, 2004, 09:10:15 am »
According to the FBI, in 2002:
14054 total murder
9369 by firearm (66%)
480 by rifles (3% total, 5% of guns)

Assuming that EVERY murder w/ a rifle was committed with an "assault weapon", you were:
368% more likely to be murdered w/ a bladed weapon (1767 v 480)
139% more likely to be murdered w/ a blunt object (666 v 480)
194% more likely to be murdered w/ personal weapons - body parts (933 v 480)


Seems to me there are lots of OTHER things we need to worry about before we talk about banning 'assault weapons" again.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/xl/02tbl2-10.xls

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #107 on: September 20, 2004, 09:31:34 am »
umm, cars do need to be registered.. and in order to own and use a car you DO need a license.

stop trying to get around it by saying 'on private property'
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #108 on: September 20, 2004, 09:51:59 am »
umm, cars do need to be registered.. and in order to own and use a car you DO need a license.

I dont have to register a car that I own.  I only need to register it if I want to drive in on the roads.  If I dont use the car on the roads, it never, ever needs to be registered.

I dont have to have a driver's license to own a car.  I only need a driver's license if I want to drive it on the roads.  if I dont drive the car on the road, I dont ever have to have a license.



stop trying to get around it by saying 'on private property'

Why?
If you're going to treat firearms like cars, then the restrictions will only apply when you use (not transport) a firearm on public property - just like for cars.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #109 on: September 20, 2004, 09:54:55 am »
However there were only 323 defensive gun uses resulting in death.

And how many that didn't?  Its been estimate dby the USDOJ that in 97% of defensive gun uses, the weapon isnt fired.  If 1 in 20 firings results in a death (and thats AWFULLY high), thats over 200,000 DGUs/year.


Wrong.

Debunking of your 97/98% figure

Quote

Although this can't be quantified, many of the 11348 homicides by gun and the 16869 suicides by gun would not have happened if guns were more tightly regulated.

Tell me:
What 'tight regulation' would have stopped them?
And you admit your claim can't be quantified - of what use is it?


"Tight regulation" is of the use that some unknown number of people would not have died.

It's true that someone hell-bent on killing themselves or someone else will succeed. It's also true that guns are a convenient and easy way of doing so.

Quote

Don't you think that guns, killing roughly the same number of people as cars, should be regulated roughly equally?

I agree.   Treat guns just like cars:

-You dont need a license to buy a car.
-You dont need a license to own a car.
-You dont need a license to operate a car on private property.
-You dont need a license to transport a car on public property
-You dont need to register a car to own it.
-You dont need to register a car that is operated on private property.
-You dont need to register a can to transport it on public property.
-If you ARE licensed to drive on public property, that license is good in all 50 states on all (applicable) public property
-If your car IS registered for use on public property, the registration is good in all 50 states on all (applicable) public property.
-You only need to insure a car that you use (not transport) on public property.


That's pretty funny!

Quote

How about mandatory ballistics "fingerprinting"?

Useless.   You fingerprint my gun, I'm changing the barrel.


Not useless.

Most gun owners don't have your expertise. The average gun owner loads his gun and keeps it in a drawer somewhere and never takes it out for target practice or even to clean it.


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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #110 on: September 20, 2004, 10:09:30 am »
Wrong.

Debunking of your 97/98% figure


Psst...
Lott wasnt my source.
US DOJ: NSPOF 1996

And in any event, arguing that more people were killed accidentally than in self-defense doesnt create an argument against the efficacy of gun in self-defense --  because the standard of a successful defensive gun use isnt a dead criminal, but a halted crime.  In halting the crime, you need not fire the gun.



"Tight regulation" is of the use that some unknown number of people would not have died.

Ah.   The old "if it saves one life" argument.

What if that "tight regulation" keeps someone from getting a gun - and then that person dies because he could not defend himself?  If "tight regulation" gets credit for saving a life, does that "tight regulation" get the blame for taking one?

If so, where does that leave your argument?



It's true that someone hell-bent on killing themselves or someone else will succeed. It's also true that guns are a convenient and easy way of doing so.

And so, as I asked:  what "tight regulation" will stop them?



That's pretty funny!

You thinking it to be funny doesnt in any way affect the validity of the position.

Treat guns like cars?   I agree.



[Ballistic fingerprinting is...] Not useless.

Most gun owners don't have your expertise. The average gun owner loads his gun and keeps it in a drawer somewhere and never takes it out for target practice or even to clean it.


Criminals arent average gun owners.

All it takes to alter the ballistic fingerprint of a gun is a few passes of steel wool through the chamber and down the barrel.  Suddenly, that fingerprint is useless.

Now, tell me a criminal wont do that.






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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #111 on: September 20, 2004, 03:32:35 pm »
Wrong.

Debunking of your 97/98% figure


Psst...
Lott wasnt my source.
US DOJ: NSPOF 1996

And in any event, arguing that more people were killed accidentally than in self-defense doesnt create an argument against the efficacy of gun in self-defense --  because the standard of a successful defensive gun use isnt a dead criminal, but a halted crime.  In halting the crime, you need not fire the gun.


Lott quoted 97/98%. He is wrong. You quoted 97/98%. You are wrong as well, unless you can provide a link to something more concrete.

Quote

"Tight regulation" is of the use that some unknown number of people would not have died.

Ah.   The old "if it saves one life" argument.

What if that "tight regulation" keeps someone from getting a gun - and then that person dies because he could not defend himself?  If "tight regulation" gets credit for saving a life, does that "tight regulation" get the blame for taking one?

If so, where does that leave your argument?



It's true that someone hell-bent on killing themselves or someone else will succeed. It's also true that guns are a convenient and easy way of doing so.

And so, as I asked:  what "tight regulation" will stop them?

That's pretty funny!

You thinking it to be funny doesnt in any way affect the validity of the position.

Treat guns like cars?   I agree.


You need insurance, valid inspection and proper registration to drive a car in the vast majority of cases. Your argument is invalid.

Quote

[Ballistic fingerprinting is...] Not useless.

Most gun owners don't have your expertise. The average gun owner loads his gun and keeps it in a drawer somewhere and never takes it out for target practice or even to clean it.


Criminals arent average gun owners.

All it takes to alter the ballistic fingerprint of a gun is a few passes of steel wool through the chamber and down the barrel.  Suddenly, that fingerprint is useless.

Now, tell me a criminal wont do that.


A criminal won't do that. Criminals are below average gun owners.

You are smarter than the average criminal.
Link to article.
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #112 on: September 20, 2004, 03:49:16 pm »
Why?
If you're going to treat firearms like cars, then the restrictions will only apply when you use (not transport) a firearm on public property - just like for cars.


It wasn't me who made that comment.

However by using the 'getting a car but keeping it on your drive' argument, then you're reducing the gun argument to people who want one but never want to use it.

and i don't think that's what most of the people here are talking about
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #113 on: September 20, 2004, 03:52:21 pm »
Lott quoted 97/98%. He is wrong. You quoted 97/98%. You are wrong as well, unless you can provide a link to something more concrete.

LOL
So, the only credible source are those you can link, to, huh?
LOL

I'll see if I can find a link.

Meanwhile, tell me how the number of criminals killed defensively is a legitimage standard by which the number of crimes stopped by the defenesive use of a gun can be judged.



I dont recall you addressing this, so...

"Tight regulation" is of the use that some unknown number of people would not have died.

Ah.   The old "if it saves one life" argument.

What if that "tight regulation" keeps someone from getting a gun - and then that person dies because he could not defend himself?  If "tight regulation" gets credit for saving a life, does that "tight regulation" get the blame for taking one?

If so, where does that leave your argument?

And:  what "tight regulation" will stop them?




You need insurance, valid inspection and proper registration to drive a car in the vast majority of cases.

Hardly.
I can own a thousand cars.  I dont need a driver's license to own any of them.   I dont have to register them, I dont have to insure them.   I can park them in my garage, or I can drive them on my land or that of anyone that will allow it.  I can do all of these things w/o a license, registration or insurance.

The ONLY time you need to have a license or register/insure a car is to drive it on the road - that is, use it on public property.

If you want to treat guns like cars, then the only time I'll need to have a license, or register the gun, or have insurance, is if/when I USE the gun on public property.  Just like a car.

I'm perfectly OK with that.



Your argument is invalid.

Please, show me how.




A criminal won't do that. Criminals are below average gun owners.

Yeaaaaaah.  

Convenient argument.
A criminal is smart enough  to avoid all the gun control laws out there to get a gun, but he's not smart enough to run some steel woll down the barrel.

Riiiiight.




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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #114 on: September 20, 2004, 03:59:36 pm »
However by using the 'getting a car but keeping it on your drive' argument, then you're reducing the gun argument to people who want one but never want to use it.

Not so.
"Private property" means a lot more than my driveway.

And, the term is "use", not "own" or "have" ot "transport" or even "carry".  You can transport a car on the road w/o a driver's license, and w/o registration and/or insurance.  So, when treating a gun like a car, you would similarly be able to transport said gun.

What this means is within the car analogy. as long as you have a proprty owners permission (or specific denial of), you can use your gun w/o licensing, etc.  You can transport said gun on public property w/o a license, etc.

The only time you'd need a license, etc, is for when you USE it on public property.




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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #115 on: September 20, 2004, 05:10:46 pm »
Always funny to see how much americans love their guns (or at least some of them) What's even more funny is seeing how they (the same people?) go berzerk if they see a nipple on television or if someone smokes a joint.

Quote
I must admit that if you are ever put in a situation where someone points a gun at you, it completely changes your outlook on gun control.
What's even more scary is that many people are actually threatened with their own gun.

Quote
More people die from cars, than guns
But then cars do serve a purpose and guns don't.

The way I see it is that if a burglar expects people to have a gun he will be much more on alert and will actually be very likely shoot the people he robs the instant he gets caught. Over here (netherlands) it's quite unlikely that a robber will carry a gun since he doesn't need one to "protect himself" and the extra risk of getting caught with a gun is a useless risk to take. When only criminals have guns it really still is much safer for the general public.

Gun related deaths counts are probably mostly useless. I'd say 90% of the people who get shot (and killed) over here are criminals themselves.

Quoting gun related crime figures is even more silly. Those also contain people carrying replica guns and such.
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #116 on: September 20, 2004, 05:20:16 pm »

The way I see it is that if a burglar expects people to have a gun he will be much more on alert and will actually be very likely shoot the people he robs the instant he gets caught. Over here (netherlands) it's quite unlikely that a robber will carry a gun since he doesn't need one to "protect himself" and the extra risk of getting caught with a gun is a useless risk to take.

Actually, the robber is more likely to just pass the house and go on to the next one if he thinks the homeowner has a gun.  Think about it.  Are you going to go into a house where the person inside has a gun and wants to shoot you?

I didn't think so.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #117 on: September 20, 2004, 07:29:50 pm »
More people die from cars, than guns...ut then cars do serve a purpose and guns don't.

yeah.   Thats why they're protected by the Constitution.

(warning:  strong dose of reality follows)
Guns exist to kill people.  There are times that people need to kill other people.  Thats why we have guns.



The way I see it is that if a burglar expects people to have a gun he will be much more on alert and will actually be very likely shoot the people he robs

But in the REAL world, criminals stay away from situations they know are dangerous to their life and limb.  Thats why they dont try to mug policemen.



Over here (netherlands)

Oh....  a Europeon.  That explains a lot.
See, here in the US, we believe that people have the right to defend themselves, with deadly force if necessary - and this right can be exercised individually or collectively.  Far too many of you Europeons have forgotten this right, and have turned into cowering slaves to fear.



it's quite unlikely that a robber will carry a gun since he doesn't need one to "protect himself" and the extra risk of getting caught with a gun is a useless risk to take.

Psst...
Criminals dont carry guns to 'protect  themselves'.
They carry them to makle their crime easier.
Its a lot easier to rob, beat, rape and murder people when you have a gun (or any other weapon) and they don't.



When only criminals have guns it really still is much safer for the general public.

Except everywhere its tried.  Guns are tightly controlled, if not banned, banned in most large US cities; large US cities have crime and murder rates as much as 15x higher than the national average.

Of course, this is because criminals dont obey the law, and theefore have an easvy victim in the person that does.



Gun related deaths counts are probably mostly useless. I'd say 90% of the people who get shot (and killed) over here are criminals themselves.

Interestingly enough, a large % (~1/3) of murderers and a large % (~1/3) of those murdered come from the same demographic:  Black males ages 18-25.  Go figger.



Quoting gun related crime figures is even more silly. Those also contain people carrying replica guns and such.

Yeah.  Just ignore what you dont like to see - I mean, who cares if it contradicts your argument, right?

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #118 on: September 20, 2004, 07:34:47 pm »
TA Pilot, please stop trying to help.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #119 on: September 20, 2004, 07:35:39 pm »
TA Pilot, please stop trying to help.


Huh?

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #120 on: September 20, 2004, 08:05:33 pm »
LMAO, that's just mean.
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #121 on: September 21, 2004, 02:50:06 am »

Well, we're not going to get anywhere with the "yes you can, no you can't" type of argument.  It's really a smaller issue in the whole gun ban argument anyway.

yes you can!!

I'd like to buy an argument, please.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #122 on: September 21, 2004, 05:01:10 am »
(Somewhat embarrassed)  I actually checked, and here is the official assault weapons ban FAQ from none other than the ATF website.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/saw-faqs.htm

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #123 on: September 21, 2004, 05:34:34 am »
Oh....  a Europeon.  That explains a lot.
See, here in the US, we believe that people have the right to defend themselves, with deadly force if necessary

oh.... an American. That explains a lot.  ::)

See, over in the US, you seem to have a lot more NEED to defend yourselves with deadly force.... and therein lies our argument.

Far too many of you Europeons have forgotten this right, and have turned into cowering slaves to fear.

Cowering slaves? How DARE you.

I'm really trying hard to ignore the fact that you actually said that

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #124 on: September 21, 2004, 08:03:10 am »

Well, we're not going to get anywhere with the "yes you can, no you can't" type of argument.  It's really a smaller issue in the whole gun ban argument anyway.

yes you can!!

I'd like to buy an argument, please.



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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #125 on: September 21, 2004, 08:16:30 am »
See, over in the US, you seem to have a lot more NEED to defend yourselves with deadly force.... and therein lies our argument.

Everyone has the need.  Some people admit it.
If you dont want to be able to kill someone thats attacking you, thats fine.  I do - and its my right to do so.


Cowering slaves? How DARE you.  I'm really trying hard to ignore the fact that you actually said that

And if you were to fail in your effort?
Tell me:  if someone -were- to break into your home and demand any number of things from youand your family - what do you do?



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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #126 on: September 21, 2004, 09:13:23 am »
In the UK, Netherlands or Australia? Where guns aren

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #127 on: September 21, 2004, 09:45:30 am »
As I said:
You arent basing your answer on personal experience.

But thats OK.  Once you're placed in a situation where you need deadly force to protect yourself and/or your loved ones, you'll understand.  If you live - which is a decision you wont get to make.

Your entire argument is based on the idea that 'criminals dont need guns because their victims dont have them'.  This is completely inane.  Criminals dont play fair - they take every advantage they can get.   You dont have a gun?  Great!  That makes their gun that much more effective in getting what they want from you.

The unarmed are simply sheep waiting to be slaughtered.  if thats what you want to be - be my guest.  Dont complain when someone takes something you cant afford to lose.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #128 on: September 21, 2004, 10:09:13 am »
(to everyone else) does this guy not get that im saying that the country i live in (australia) is somewhat less violent than the country HE lives in (the USA)?

Sure I do.
But what you dont seem to understand that just because you dont feel threatened doesnt mean you arent, and that your perceived lack of threat doesnt in any way create a valid argument against anyone else wanting to own a gun.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #129 on: September 21, 2004, 10:22:26 am »

do i threaten you? do you want to shoot me?
[/b}

No.  Why?

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #130 on: September 21, 2004, 03:11:06 pm »
Interestingly enough, a large % (~1/3) of murderers and a large % (~1/3) of those murdered come from the same demographic:  Black males ages 18-25.  Go figger.

Interestingly enough, a large % of redneck ---uvulas--- come from the same demographic:  White gun nuts.  Go figger.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #131 on: September 21, 2004, 03:13:42 pm »
Interestingly enough, a large % of redneck ---uvulas--- come from the same demographic:  White gun nuts.  Go figger.


Whats your point?
It not my fault the FBI compiles these statistics.  
If you dont like it, blame them.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #132 on: September 21, 2004, 03:17:38 pm »
It's not the statistic that I find obnoxious, it's what you think it implies.
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #133 on: September 21, 2004, 03:20:27 pm »
It's not the statistic that I find obnoxious, it's what you think it implies.

And that would be....?

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #134 on: September 21, 2004, 03:34:02 pm »
Actually, Austrailia does lead the world in Burglaries per capita.

(I wish I knew how to hyperlink properly) :http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_bur_cap

The US is way down the list.  The US leads the world in total number of burglaries, but it's because of the population.

Austrailia is also in the top 3 for rapes per capita.  It's below the US in assaults by a little.  7.7 per 1000 in the US and 7.15 in Austrailia.

It's right there with Russia for Manslaughters.  I can't find the stat on the US.

The UK leads the US on Total Crime.

Austrailia is way down on the list of total Crime.
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #135 on: September 21, 2004, 03:40:20 pm »
Actually, Austrailia does lead the world in Burglaries per capita.

Its easy to break into a home when you know its unlikely that there will be an owner waiting for you w/ a shotgun.

Conversely, if you know there's a good chance you'll be greeted by such a person, you wont break in.



It's right there with Russia for Manslaughters.  I can't find the stat on the US.

Manslaughteres are counted by the FBI under "murder"


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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #136 on: September 21, 2004, 03:54:43 pm »
It's not the statistic that I find obnoxious, it's what you think it implies.

And that would be....?

Hmm....well, I just don't know?  What ever could you have meant by that TA?  Maybe it was just some random thing to say that had no relavence -- just an unrelated little factoid.  

You know...there's a reason that even Dartful Dodger, who is on yours side, doesn't want you on his side.
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #137 on: September 21, 2004, 04:00:02 pm »
Hmm....well, I just don't know?

If you don't know, why'd you bring it up?
Seems to me I was responing to someone mentioning a % of people being involved in criminal activity.   I did the same.



You know...there's a reason that even Dartful Dodger, who is on yours side, doesn't want you on his side.

Oh, wow.  Boy I tell you what - THAT sure hurts.

No offense to Dartful, but I really dont need anyone on my "side"; if someone else feels the same, then thats OK by me.

Want to discuss gun control?  Fine.  Bring it on.
If you're just going to whine... well, I have better things to do.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #138 on: September 21, 2004, 04:39:48 pm »
This thread is so much fun. Just like reading the comics in the newspaper.

danny_galaga,

Nice dutch man ;)


TA Pilot,

Are you for real?

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #139 on: September 21, 2004, 04:55:02 pm »
Wow...sarcasm is completely lost on you TA.  I thought you were playing dumb before.  

I'm coming around, though.  I think maybe you're right.  What we really need are fewer blacks.  If we didn't have so damn many blacks we wouldn't have so many murders.

I guess they're taking care of that, though, eh?
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #140 on: September 21, 2004, 07:05:50 pm »
Wow...sarcasm is completely lost on you TA.  I thought you were playing dumb before.  

I'm coming around, though.  I think maybe you're right.  What we really need are fewer blacks.  If we didn't have so damn many blacks we wouldn't have so many murders.

I guess they're taking care of that, though, eh?

TA is a fake.  Who joins an arcade controls board just to spout nonsense in everything else threads about guns?

This just proves what nonsense gun control is.  You can't make a good argument for it, so you create a user to make bogus claims against it.

"What? no I'm real, really."

Tell it to CBS.  Dan Rathers might listen to you.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #141 on: September 21, 2004, 07:57:53 pm »
I'm coming around, though.  I think maybe you're right.  What we really need are fewer blacks.  If we didn't have so damn many blacks we wouldn't have so many murders.

Wow.  THATS what you got from my post?

Its very interesting to see what people think when they react to the simple posting of facts.  You -assume- that I mean something by it, and you assumption gets you all hot and bothered.  

You're just a little too sensitive.   Relax.  Live longer.


I guess they're taking care of that, though, eh?

Maybe Darwin was right?



TA is a fake

A fake what?


 Who joins an arcade controls board just to spout nonsense in everything else threads about guns?

I was invited here by someone.  Seems to me this is an open forum, right?  And as long as I dont starl slinging obscenities, I can pretty mush reply to whatever I want in whatever manner I see fit - right?

Gun control is probably my favorite topic of discussion, right up there with the 2000 election, the war in Iraq and wether or not Kirk and the Enterprise could take the entire Empire, including Vader (and the answer is: without breaking a sweat).

And you're right:  you cant make a good argument for gun control, whereas good arguments -against- it are plentiful.  You'll notice that, invariably, the people that resort to nonsensical attacks on othe rpeople are those that -support- gun control.



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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #142 on: September 21, 2004, 11:11:01 pm »

Well, we're not going to get anywhere with the "yes you can, no you can't" type of argument.  It's really a smaller issue in the whole gun ban argument anyway.

yes you can!!

I'd like to buy an argument, please.


you're so friggen funny sometimes, it hurts  ;)

sigh....

do i threaten you? do you want to shoot me?
Do I make you hoaney baby?  Do I?!   :-*

Who joins an arcade controls board just to spout nonsense in everything else threads about guns?

I was invited here by someone.  Seems to me this is an open forum, right?  And as long as I dont starl slinging obscenities, I can pretty mush reply to whatever I want in whatever manner I see fit - right?
no, not quite.  The obscenities should be a given, and they have a filter on the board, AFAIK.  You are also told to leave hate at the door.  And it is up to the mods what "bringing  hate inside the door" means.  

SOME of your replies border on what I would consider wrong, but I also see how this topic brings out spirited debate, sometimes making the holding or tempering of ones tongue (or "tounge", if you're Danny) difficult.  That's why there's a "preview" button, and a "modify" option.

Carry on.  ;D
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #143 on: September 22, 2004, 01:46:06 am »
Always funny to see how much americans love their guns (or at least some of them) What's even more funny is seeing how they (the same people?) go berzerk if they see a nipple on television or if someone smokes a joint.

I would disagree. I wouldn;t mind any of that and I like guns.  I'd think it's the people that complain about guns that also complain the US isn't "politically correct".  I think the Us is too much "politically correct".  I mean, when the people in a county in california complains that the terms master and slave on hard drives is indecent (even though the terms are used correctly) you know something is wrong!

The US has affirmative action which is suppose to help against racism when in itself the law is racist.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #144 on: September 22, 2004, 02:16:16 am »
The US has affirmative action which is suppose to help against racism when in itself the law is racist.

*sound of a can being opened*

worms, anyone?
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #145 on: September 22, 2004, 03:58:35 am »
And you're right:  you cant make a good argument for gun control, whereas good arguments -against- it are plentiful.  You'll notice that, invariably, the people that resort to nonsensical attacks on othe rpeople are those that -support- gun control.
That's just not true. There is no good argument why every idiot should own their own gun. Self defense is the stupidest of them all since you will not have your gun handy when you need it anyway. If you just came to protest against gun control then you better go away. You really only hurt the case you are fighting for.

For what it's worth, people in the Netherlands CAN own their own gun. In fact I shot with an M16, an AK47 and a handgun (forgot the brand) it's just harder to get them (1 year wait and you are screened) and there are strict rules on storage. This prevents people who are temporarily insane from shooting up a postal office or fast food restaurant. Also hardly any kids playing with their dads gun and accidentily shooting themselfs or their friends.

Accidents and temporary insanity are the areas where gun control matters. Guns don't kill people, people don't kill people, but idiots (insane people or kids who like to play with guns) with guns kill people.

Of course criminals can still get their guns and they do. Having your own gun is not gonna stop a bullet from their guns though. The number of people shot with firearms by criminals is only a measure of how criminal that society is. These figures are irrelevant to gun control since these people will get their gun no matter what. On the other hand if noone owns a gun, criminals are less likely to need a gun and thus they are less likely to get one. Again you save on people shot "by accident" since a burglar realy doesn't go out to kill people.

I haven't seen a single good comment for removing gun control. Probably the only one would be "I want to own and shoot a gun". That's fine, but why not have rules on that?
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #146 on: September 22, 2004, 07:00:45 am »
That's just not true. There is no good argument why every idiot should own their own gun.

Nobody says every idiot should own their own gun.  Our government was founded on freedoms, and the CHOICE to own a gun is guaranteed by anyone who lives here.
Our government was also made to be changed and updated as necessary, and so far the majority of us do not feel that the CHOICE to own a gun should be given up.

Quote
Self defense is the stupidest of them all since you will not have your gun handy when you need it anyway.

Who knows when you will need it?  You'd better be prepared and have it at the ready at all times.  I have lived through being robbed at gunpoint, and I've made the decision that I will not let that happen again.  I have a concealed carry permit and my gun goes where I go.
I think that if you check some statistics you will see that a majority of concealed carry permit holders have a reason for carrying-  they have been robbed, shot, raped, in the past... no amount of legislation or gun control will ever keep the criminals from acting.

Quote
For what it's worth, people in the Netherlands CAN own their own gun. In fact I shot with an M16, an AK47 and a handgun (forgot the brand) it's just harder to get them (1 year wait and you are screened) and there are strict rules on storage. This prevents people who are temporarily insane from shooting up a postal office or fast food restaurant. Also hardly any kids playing with their dads gun and accidentily shooting themselfs or their friends.

Any legislation that imposes waiting periods and screenings in an attempt to circumvent crimes of passion is totally useless.  I can go downtown and buy a black market gun quickly and easily.

Quote
Accidents and temporary insanity are the areas where gun control matters. Guns don't kill people, people don't kill people, but idiots (insane people or kids who like to play with guns) with guns kill people.

We DO have effective legislation in place for these situations, and they do not involve gun control.  Last year in my town, a lady was on her front porch talking to her neighbors when her 10 year old son shot and killed his cousin with a loaded shotgun they found in the house.  The woman who was watching them (and was deemed responsible for their safety) is now in prison.  She admitted to knowing the gun was there, and that it was loaded.
Idiots also go to prison for killing people.  If you try to say that boy would be alive today if the gun wasn't there, then where do you stop?  There are knives in the kitchen, there are electrical outlets all over the house, there are cars in the street...  At some point you have to say that responsible parenting will overcome these obstacles.

Quote
Of course criminals can still get their guns and they do. Having your own gun is not gonna stop a bullet from their guns though. The number of people shot with firearms by criminals is only a measure of how criminal that society is. These figures are irrelevant to gun control since these people will get their gun no matter what. On the other hand if noone owns a gun, criminals are less likely to need a gun and thus they are less likely to get one. Again you save on people shot "by accident" since a burglar realy doesn't go out to kill people.

If criminals know you do not have a gun they are more apt to be bolder in what they will do to you, and more likely to kill you to make sure there are no witnesses.

Your view of burglars is amazingly wrong.  A few months ago my Aunt and Uncle were robbed in their home in the middle of the night.  They do not own any guns, but the robbers did have guns.  After they took what they wanted, they tied my Uncle to a chair and made him watch helplessly as they beat my Aunt to a bloody pulp with a fireplace iron.  No, criminals have no such morals as you make them out to have.


Quote
I haven't seen a single good comment for removing gun control. Probably the only one would be "I want to own and shoot a gun". That's fine, but why not have rules on that?

You never will.  Maybe if you take off your blinders and try to look at the other side of the argument you just might.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #147 on: September 22, 2004, 08:09:40 am »
That's just not true. There is no good argument why every idiot should own their own gun.

No one makes this argument.  No one argues that criminals, children, the mentally infirm or non-citizens have the right to arms.

Further, as a standard discalimer, any reference to gun control laws being an infringement of the right to arms does not apply to the above people, as they have no such right.



Self defense is the stupidest of them all since you will not have your gun handy when you need it anyway.

Tell me:
If the right to arms isnt about self-defense - then what?



If you just came to protest against gun control then you better go away. You really only hurt the case you are fighting for.

Sounds like you're nervous.  Thats OK.



Accidents and temporary insanity are the areas where gun control matters.

And in neither case does gun control affect these things.
Gun control only limits people that obey the law.  It doesnt stop people that want a gun and are willing to do what they have to do from getting one.  It also doesnt stop accidents, as accidents are only avoided by people knowing how to proprely handle a firearm.


Guns don't kill people, people don't kill people, but idiots (insane people or kids who like to play with guns) with guns kill people.

In the US, most gun deaths are fom suicide.  Which category does that fall under, and what sort of law would stop it?



Of course criminals can still get their guns and they do. Having your own gun is not gonna stop a bullet from their guns though.

Curious.   You're arguing that the police should not have guns - after all, a policeman's gun cant stop a bullet.  You DO know of course that having a gun at least gives you a chance against a criminal that does --  and a VERY good chance against a criminal that doesnt.  Right?

Given that ~75% of violent crime in the US is NOT committed with a gun, what support is there for the argument that a gun wont help a victim against a criminal?


 
The number of people shot with firearms by criminals is only a measure of how criminal that society is. These figures are irrelevant to gun control since these people will get their gun no matter what.

This is silly.  Gun control is suppoedly about crime control - and you admit that criminals arent affected by gun control.

You, yourself, are arguing that gun control doesnt work.
Why have it?



On the other hand if noone owns a gun, criminals are less likely to need a gun and thus they are less likely to get one. Again you save on people shot "by accident" since a burglar realy doesn't go out to kill people.

I really really really wory about someone who argues that "disarming the victim will disarm the criminal".  Its... insane beyond description.

Criminals prey on the weak.  Disarming people make them weaker - and thus, more likely to be preyed upon.



I haven't seen a single good comment for removing gun control

How about
-Gun control doesnt keep guns from the hands of criminals
-Gun control infringes the right of the people

It doesnt do what its supposed to do and it infringes my rights.  There isnt a single rational reason to keep it.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #148 on: September 22, 2004, 03:03:23 pm »
I know I really shouldn

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #149 on: September 22, 2004, 03:06:36 pm »
Amen, brother.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #150 on: September 22, 2004, 05:55:44 pm »
I guess you guys complete missed my post since I only read replies that didn't make any sense.

Self defense is the stupidest of them all since you will not have your gun handy when you need it anyway.

Tell me:
If the right to arms isnt about self-defense - then what?
That's just my point. There is no valid reason for it other then "I want to own one (and I will start crying if I can't)".

Our government was founded on freedoms, and the CHOICE to own a gun is guaranteed by anyone who lives here.
He, he, you do realise that in the US you probably have the least freedom of any democratic country don't you? Anyway, as I said I also have the right to own a gun, I'm just glad that (at least over here) not every idiot has that right. I also wonder why you don't have the right to driver your car as fast as you like? Why can't you have sex in public places? Why can't you drink alcohol when you are 16 years old? And more on the subject why can't you ask your docter to end your live humanely instead of needlesly suffering from a terminal disease for weeks/months.

The biggest hoot:
Quote
Maybe if you take off your blinders and try to look at the other side of the argument you just might.
You have got to be kidding me. I do look at the other side and I understand where you are coming from. I make up dumb reasons why I "need" to do something that I'm not allowed. All you do is make up reasons to validate your wish to own a gun. You really have no compelling argument why you should own a gun. The only reasons I see coming over and over is that is is your right and that you dream that one day you will foil a robber (of course you won't and you know it if you allow some thinking on the subject). Maybe you guys should think past "I have a right" and think of a real reason ... ah, but that's just it ... there is none.

Face it, the only reason you want that gun is because you ... well ... want it. Be happy that you got one and that your government doesn't have stricter laws on them. There is nothing wrong with wanting something, but don't give me some lame excuse why it is impossible for you not to own a gun.

I would like to drive 250km/h on the open roads. It is my right! Why the hell can't I do that? Damn that government and their blinders! See the other side of the argument! I will be on location twice as fast so come on let me drive that fast. Hell even a few years ago we were allowed to drive that fast so why not now? Does that sounds like a dumb argument? Hmmm .... I wonder why.
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #151 on: September 22, 2004, 06:29:55 pm »
PatrickL,

Don't you live in the Netherlands?

How do you know how free we are in the US?  TV?  

I don't think that anyone who hasn't spent years in a country can judge all aspects of it's culture.  Each country's culture is based on it's history and it's values.

This to the people of the US is a right, not a privilige.  It's a way of life.  

Start taking this and that for the good of the many.  It starts as a trickle and ends in a flood.  We start chipping away at rights and before you know it, you don't have any rights.  

It's a broader issue than if we "need" them or not.  Next it could be something else.

In the US we tried great social experiments like Prohabition.  It didn't work either.  It caused more problems that it solved.  

If the other countries like their laws regarding guns, fine and dandy.  That's great.

But why go and flamebait the US over gun control?



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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #152 on: September 22, 2004, 06:42:39 pm »
That's just my point. There is no valid reason for it other then "I want to own one (and I will start crying if I can't)"

Ok. let me put this differently:
What are the legitimate uses for a firearm?
Why can an "assault weapon" not effectively be used in in any of the things you listed?



He, he, you do realise that in the US you probably have the least freedom of any democratic country don't you?

Specifically - in what terms?


Anyway, as I said I also have the right to own a gun, I'm just glad that (at least over here) not every idiot has that right.

Good news:  same here.   Not everyone has the right to arms in the US.



You really have no compelling argument why you should own a gun. The only reasons I see coming over and over is that is is your right

Hmm.  In the US, we dont havwe to justify the exercise of our rights.  Do you have to do that where you live?   You consider yourself free?



Maybe you guys should think past "I have a right" and think of a real reason ... ah, but that's just it ... there is none.

Like I said:
List the legitimate reasons to have a gun
Tell me why an "assault weapon" cannot be effectively used for that purpose.



I would like to drive 250km/h on the open roads. It is my right!

You have no right to drive on the roads, perriod - mush less at any particular speed.



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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #153 on: September 22, 2004, 06:46:26 pm »
I guess you guys complete missed my post since I only read replies that didn't make any sense.

Self defense is the stupidest of them all since you will not have your gun handy when you need it anyway.

Tell me:
If the right to arms isnt about self-defense - then what?
That's just my point. There is no valid reason for it other then "I want to own one (and I will start crying if I can't)".
The police can't stop all the crimes from being committed, but we still need them.

A gun doesn't have to be in your hand to defend you.  It is impossible to know how many crimes were not committed because the criminal was afraid of getting shot.

I'm bored of guns war and government.
Somebody have a fresh idea to debate.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #154 on: September 22, 2004, 07:35:49 pm »
this is going nowhere.

Let's just agree that in The States guns are needed to feel safe against a more violent criminal aspect which more often than not is armed... and in Europe and elsewhere guns are not needed as more often than not criminals don't have guns for the reasons listed. For your average crime they don't need them.

we'll be here forever otherwise going round in circles.

Americans are happy wanting guns to feel safe and I'm happy not wanting guns to feel safe.

we're all different  :)
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #155 on: September 22, 2004, 08:45:46 pm »
we'll be here forever otherwise going round in circles.

Americans are happy wanting guns to feel safe and I'm happy not wanting guns to feel safe.

we're all different  :)

Amen, brother.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #156 on: September 22, 2004, 09:57:10 pm »
Who was the best Darrin?  Dick York or Dick Sargent?

I vote Dick York.  He was the first, and in my mind had the best facial expressions.
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #157 on: September 22, 2004, 10:54:30 pm »
Amen, brother.
Now you've gone and brought religion into it....are you one of those zealots I keep reading about? ;)
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #158 on: September 23, 2004, 05:02:02 am »
Man: An argument is a connected series of statement intended to establish a proposition.
Other Man: No it isn't!
Man: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.
Other Man: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position!
Man: Yes but it isn't just saying "no it isn't".
Other Man: Yes it is!
Man: No it isn't!
Other Man: Yes it is!
Man: No it isn't!
Other Man: Yes it is!
Man: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
Other Man: It is NOT!
Man: It is!
Other Man: Not at all!
Man: It is!

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #159 on: September 23, 2004, 10:24:20 am »
I
« Last Edit: September 23, 2004, 10:26:03 am by TA Pilot »

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #160 on: September 23, 2004, 10:37:15 am »
hello again!! so you really are real!! even if 'not for real'


Lets see.
I question the absurdity of your statements
You respond that I'm not for real

Strong response, yours.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #161 on: September 23, 2004, 10:42:32 am »

"This seems to prove the point I was making earlier. That Americans seem needlessly violent."

News:
Killing someone thats trying to to do you what they did to them isnt "needless violence".

He was talking about the intruder that beat their helpless victim.  That was needless.  I do not agree that only Americans would do such a thing.

Danny, I'm going to borrow something you posted from the "Guilty until proven innocent" thread.
Quote
I hate the term, but 'thin edge of the wedge' is sounding very appropriate. If this time it's an ememy soldier, maybe next time it's someone accused of murder. case is a bit shaky, so we'll use guantanamo bay. then maybe someone accused of drug smuggling. well then, it's not such a big step to use the same system to try someone accused of robbery. just a short stroll from reckless driving. gee, we used the guantanamo bay system for reckless driving, i've got this shoplifter i really need put away. from there, well who's to argue if i get someone sent off because i just don't like him, i'm in authority and i know what's best for everyone...

This is similar to what the guys are describing in this thread.  They are just concerned that one thing will lead to another.  I don't understand how you can use it as an argument for one thing but disregard it for another.

I think another thing that is being overlooked is that some people do consider collecting firearms a hobby.  It would be similar to us here.  There's been a joystick that you can't get for 10 years and now it's available again.  There's people that don't think you need the joystick because they don't like the throw.  I know there aren't many joystick related deaths, but to collectors having access to something you didn't before would be really nice.  I'm sure there are people out there that don't understand the hobby of collecting firearms.  I don't understand why people collect spoons with states on them, but they do.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2004, 10:45:32 am by Witchboard »

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #162 on: September 23, 2004, 11:13:44 am »
He was talking about the intruder that beat their helpless victim.  That was needless.  I do not agree that only Americans would do such a thing.

Might be.   But the point he was making was that he saw no less violent outcome - that is, had there been a gun in the house with which the victims couuld have used to defend themselves - quite possibly resulting in the deaths of the criminals - and this means that the outcome, to him, would not be "better".

Ask the victims: would it have been a batter outcome had you been able to stop the criminals before they beat the crap out of you?



This is similar to what the guys are describing in this thread.  They are just concerned that one thing will lead to another.  I don't understand how you can use it as an argument for one thing but disregard it for another.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean.



I think another thing that is being overlooked is that some people do consider collecting firearms a hobby.

Could be, but thats not the argument.



It would be similar to us here.  There's been a joystick that you can't get for 10 years and now it's available again.

You're proceeding from a false premise.
"Assault weapons" have been legally availiable since the first day of the "ban".

This rifle was banned:


This one was not:



See the dramatic difference in the two?

Fact is, all of the "assault weapons" that were "banned" were legally for sale on the first day of the "ban", as the manufacturers removed whatever was necessary to comply with the law.

For whatever reason, people ignore this.
Or, they dont know it, which means they're arguing from ignorance.

With all due respect, the argument concerning the AWB doesnt have much to do with collecting.  The ban had no effect whatsoever on the availability of the guns; to argue that the expiration of the ban will mean more gun deaths, etc, is born or ignorance.


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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #163 on: September 23, 2004, 11:15:11 am »
  i just question your reasoning. even some who might side with you have questioned your reasoning!

Which reasoning is that?




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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #164 on: September 23, 2004, 11:30:43 am »

true, might be a stretch to call it 'reasoning' as such...


Ah - another fine example of your willingness to back up your posts.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #165 on: September 23, 2004, 11:46:48 am »
This is similar to what the guys are describing in this thread.  They are just concerned that one thing will lead to another.  I don't understand how you can use it as an argument for one thing but disregard it for another.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean.

That's because it was a question directed at Danny.

Quote
I think another thing that is being overlooked is that some people do consider collecting firearms a hobby.

Could be, but thats not the argument.

I thought the argument was about rights.  I guess I've misinterpreted the thread.

Quote
It would be similar to us here.  There's been a joystick that you can't get for 10 years and now it's available again.

You're proceeding from a false premise.
"Assault weapons" have been legally availiable since the first day of the "ban".
<snip>
See the dramatic difference in the two?

No, I don't see a difference.  I thought it was more about how the weapon functioned rather than how it looked.

Quote
Fact is, all of the "assault weapons" that were "banned" were legally for sale on the first day of the "ban", as the manufacturers removed whatever was necessary to comply with the law.

For whatever reason, people ignore this.
Or, they dont know it, which means they're arguing from ignorance.

I will admit I am ignorant to much of what's going on with "assault weapons" seeing as how I will probably never own or have a use for one.  That doesn't mean that I don't think somebody else should not be able to legally posses something due to my apathy.

Quote
With all due respect, the argument concerning the AWB doesnt have much to do with collecting.  The ban had no effect whatsoever on the availability of the guns; to argue that the expiration of the ban will mean more gun deaths, etc, is born or ignorance.

You don't have to convince me.  I agree with most of what you say.  I'm just trying to see it from more perspectives.  I think you're so fired up to prove your point that when you read my post you didn't see that I was supporting your side.  The only thing that was directed at you was the very first quote because I thought you misinterpreted what Danny said.  The rest of this post wasn't actually directed at you.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #166 on: September 23, 2004, 12:21:50 pm »
TA Pilot.. In case you forgot, this is a Build Your Own Arcade Controls forum.   Not a Gun Control forum.

While you have every right to join the BYOAC forums and ask questions about building your own arcade system.  But to come on this Arcade Forum and have everyone of your posts be about Gun Control and defending your right to own a gun is crazy.  

I don't see you as a positive addition to the community.  And unless you have a Arcade related question, I'm no longer going to reply nor read any of your posts.

Quote
 Ah - another fine example of your willingness to back up your posts.

Also, most of the people on this board aren't gun control experts and aren't able to pull gun stats, court cases and dates out of their ass...  Ask a question about Pac-Man or Tron.  Then someone will be able to challenge any stats your may have.

Until then, I wish you all the best on your crusade.

-GG

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #167 on: September 23, 2004, 12:30:43 pm »
No, I don't see a difference.  I thought it was more abut how the weapon functioned rather than how it looked.

Look at the end of the barrel, at the base of the flash suppressor, under the front sight.

The upper rifle has a bayonette lug.  Its illegal under the ban.
The lower rifle does not.  Its legal.
Thats the difference between illegal/legal under the AWB.

Pretty silly, the 'ban' - eh?



I think you're so fired up to prove your point that when you read my post you didn't see that I was supporting your side.  

No, I knew you were supporting my side - thats why I responded with 'all due respect'.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #168 on: September 23, 2004, 12:37:31 pm »
TA Pilot.. In case you forgot, this is a Build Your Own Arcade Controls forum.   Not a Gun Control forum.

Freedom of sppech?
I was invited because of the topic.  
If this is all I want to post on, who are you to say anyting about it?



I don't see you as a positive addition to the community.  And unless you have a Arcade related question, I'm no longer going to reply nor read any of your posts.

Boy, am -I- going to lose sleep
Just consider that if YOU keep posting to these threads and then wont respond to my posts criticizing yours - you're simply hiding.



Also, most of the people on this board aren't gun control experts and aren't able to pull gun stats, court cases and dates out of their ass...  

So, they're position is based on ignorance.  I help them with that by explaining to them the particulars, or getting them to look them up themselves.

I find that when people become informed on the issue,  they generally agree with me.



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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #169 on: September 23, 2004, 01:17:45 pm »

No, I don't see a difference.  I thought it was more about how the weapon functioned rather than how it looked.
That's the biggest misconception here.

There is no functional difference at all between the two pictured rifles. All the differences are more or less cosmetic.

There is no functional difference between most pre-ban and post-ban rifles.

The experation of the AWB doesn't allow any added functionality (such as burst or auto fire)

« Last Edit: September 23, 2004, 01:18:37 pm by tep0583 »

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #170 on: September 23, 2004, 02:02:15 pm »
TA Pilot.. In case you forgot, this is a Build Your Own Arcade Controls forum.   Not a Gun Control forum.
GGKoul.. TA Pilot is a joke, someone made up that username to fill up this board with nonsense posts.  I am not going to debate this subject either, check the first few posts he's made when he made his premier on an arcade building board.  He came here to make nonsense gun control claims, just to upset antigun people, and to make gun advocates look like ignorant red necks.  

The admins can check the IP addresses he was using and compare them to other members of this board, but now that I've called him on it, he'll use a different computer.  He's already toned down the off the wall ignorance in his posts since I first called him out as a fake.

This will be the last time I will mention this.  I will not waste my time or ArcadeControls web space debating this subject.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #171 on: September 23, 2004, 02:16:52 pm »
No, I don't see a difference.  I thought it was more abut how the weapon functioned rather than how it looked.

Look at the end of the barrel, at the base of the flash suppressor, under the front sight.

The upper rifle has a bayonette lug.  Its illegal under the ban.
The lower rifle does not.  Its legal.
Thats the difference between illegal/legal under the AWB.

Pretty silly, the 'ban' - eh?


No, I don't see a difference.  I thought it was more about how the weapon functioned rather than how it looked.
That's the biggest misconception here.

There is no functional difference at all between the two pictured rifles. All the differences are more or less cosmetic.

There is no functional difference between most pre-ban and post-ban rifles.

The experation of the AWB doesn't allow any added functionality (such as burst or auto fire)

Indeed I do have misconceptions due to my ignorance of the Clinton ban.  Though it can still be said that these cosmetic changes can still alter how the weapon functions.  Like the bayonette lug.  If you mount a bayonette to the weapon it does add a function that the previously unbanned version could not have.  Is this a big deal?  Not really.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #172 on: September 23, 2004, 02:17:27 pm »
TA Pilot is a joke, someone made up that username to fill up this board with nonsense posts.

Hey!  Is this a personal insult?
Thats against the rules, isnt it?



He came here to make nonsense gun control claims, just to upset antigun people, and to make gun advocates look like ignorant red necks.  

If my posts are nonsensical, how is it that you cannot effectively counter my arguments.

And if all it takes for you anti-gun people to be "uspet" is for someone to effectively counter your assertions - my, you have thin skins.  

I came here becasue I was invited to participate in a gun control discussion - that is, after all what this thread is about (see: header -The Clinton gun ban has expired).

Now, if you have an example of me violating the message boeard rules, you can post them here -- but as much as you'd like to think so, not agreeing with you doesnt violate those rules.



The admins can check the IP addresses he was using and compare them to other members of this board, but now that I've called him on it, he'll use a different computer.  

Bad news for you:  Same computer.  Same IP address.   I have no fear of anyone knowing where I'm posting from.



He's already toned down the off the wall ignorance in his posts since I first called him out as a fake.

Fake....what?



This will be the last time I will mention this.  I will not waste my time or ArcadeControls web space debating this subject.

Isn't this the 2nd ot 3rd time you've said that?

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #173 on: September 23, 2004, 02:25:17 pm »
I came here becasue I was invited to participate in a gun control discussion - that is, after all what this thread is about (see: header -The Clinton gun ban has expired).


Just wondering who invited you to join the Gun Control discussion?

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #174 on: September 23, 2004, 02:30:54 pm »

Just wondering who invited you to join the Gun Control discussion?

One of the other members posting here.   He agrees with me 100%, and he thought I'd find this amusing.  he was right, of course.

Naturally, I'm not about to divulge his ID.  If you go back and read the posts, maybe you'll figure it out.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #175 on: September 23, 2004, 02:35:47 pm »
If he agrees with you 100%, then why are you hiding this person?

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #176 on: September 23, 2004, 02:39:40 pm »
If he agrees with you 100%, then why are you hiding this person?

Its a little thing called respect.   He knows who he is; if he wants to come forward and say he invited me, he will.



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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #177 on: September 23, 2004, 02:42:34 pm »
If he agrees with you 100%, then why are you hiding this person?

Its a little thing called respect.   He knows who he is; if he wants to come forward and say he invited me, he will.


I've got 2 or 3 people in mind... but I'm not going to add to this thread anymore...  Good Luck with everything and feel free to contact me should you have any arcade related questions.  


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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #178 on: September 23, 2004, 02:59:44 pm »
TA Pilot.. In case you forgot, this is a Build Your Own Arcade Controls forum.   Not a Gun Control forum.
GGKoul.. TA Pilot is a joke, someone made up that username to fill up this board with nonsense posts.  I am not going to debate this subject either, check the first few posts he's made when he made his premier on an arcade building board.  He came here to make nonsense gun control claims, just to upset antigun people, and to make gun advocates look like ignorant red necks.  
So very very true.

Someone who thinks:
- taking a persons life is OK if he/she is stealing your stuff (vigilantism)
- black people killing black people is a fortunate thing (racism)
- there will come a time when he is called upon to "take up arms" (terrorism?)

All in all he is a prime example of someone who should not be allowed to own firearms (due to mental deficiencies and criminal tendencies) proclaiming his "right" to own firearms. He has to be a bad joke.


On the other hand I'm intrigued how real Americans feel on this subject. I actually did spend quite some time in the US and it always amazed me how americans would say terrorists are such a huge threat while almost weekly I would see news items about dozens of people getting shot by maniacs shooting up public places.

I'm also unsure how guns are supposed to improve the outcome of burglaries, robberies or rapes. For the life of me I can't see how guns would help in any normal scenario (apart from people walking around with their guns drawn wearing bullet proof vests and helmets all day) Either someone dies (or gets seriously hurt) or the crime ends as it would have been without the guns. The net result would be dead and wounded people against maybe a few less stolen items. That hardly sounds like a fair trade.

I searched for statistics about how guns would make things better, but all I could find where figures on how they make things worse. For instance, you are apparently about 2.7 times as likely to get shot in your own home if you own a gun than if you don't own one. (I have to admit I didn't understand why that would be so, but still)

I'm all for people owning guns. As I said before, I fired some and I had a hell of a time. They look cool and why shouldn't you be able to own one? The problem I have is when people think it's OK to use guns outside the shooting range and feel the need to keep their firearms at easy reach. That's where innocent people end up getting killed (I saw figures of 800 to 1000 people dying from firearm accidents earlier). I guess you might make a joke of it and call it "natural selection", but then I assume you would think differently if your own kid would have found your gun.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2004, 03:07:56 pm by patrickl »
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TA Pilot

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #179 on: September 23, 2004, 03:16:46 pm »
Someone who thinks:
- a persons life is OK if he/she is stealing your stuff (vigilantism)
- black people killing black people is a fortunate thing (racism)
- there will come a time when he is called upon to "take up arms" (terrorism?)

All in all he is a prime example of someone who should not be allowed to own firearms (due to mental deficiencies and criminal tendencies) proclaiming his "right" to own firearms. He has to be a bad joke.



WOW.
You know, if you didnt misrepresent my positions or read into them whatever you feel necessary to read into them, then maybe you'd have something.

- (taking) a persons life is OK if he/she is stealing your stuff (vigilantism)
Self-defense isnt vigilanteism.  You have the right to use deadly force when necessary to protect your rights.  This means it IS OK to take someone elses life, if necesary, to protect yourself.

- black people killing black people is a fortunate thing
Please show me where I placed a moral value on the level of black-on-black crime in the US.

- there will come a time when he is called upon to "take up arms"
This sort of thing has happened several times in several places in the last 250 years.  No reason whatsoever to think it cant happen here, again.



On the other hand I'm intrigued how real Americans feel on this subject.

Since I disagree with you, I'm not a "real American"?
Wow.



I'm also unsure how guns are supposed to improve the outcome of burglaries, robberies or rapes.

This may be a stretch...   but by scaring away the bad guy - and failing that, rendering him physically incapable of committing the crim in question?


For the life of me I can't see how guns would help in any normal scenario

Oh - YOU can't imagine it, and therefore it cant be so.


Either someone dies (or gets seriously hurt) or the crime ends as it would have been without the guns.

Or...the criminal runs away/ is wounded/is killed, and the victim is safe -as is usually the case.


The net result would be dead and wounded people against maybe a few less stolen items. That hardly sounds like a fair trade.

Whats wrong with wounded/dead criminals and uninjured victims?


I searched for statistics about how guns would make things better, but all I could find where figures on how they make things worse.

Try harder.   Guns are used to stop crime between 1.5 and 2 million times each year in the US.

Thats 1.5-2 million fewer victims.



The problem I have is when people think it's OK to use guns outside the shooting range and feel the need to keep their firearms at easy reach.

Tell me:
Of what use is my gun if I can only use it at the range and I cannot get to it?


That's where innocent people end up getting killed (I saw figures of 800 to 1000 people dying from firearm accidents earlier).

Yes.  ~800 asccidental deaths, 300,000,000 guns.
What % is that?  0.00026%
What problem, accidents?



I guess you might make a joke of it and call it "natural selection", but then I assume you would think differently if your own kid would have found your gun.

I've been a responsible parent.   My kids, appropriate to their age, know how to safely deal with a gun.
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #180 on: September 23, 2004, 03:45:02 pm »
Indeed I do have misconceptions due to my ignorance of the Clinton ban.  Though it can still be said that these cosmetic changes can still alter how the weapon functions.  Like the bayonette lug.  If you mount a bayonette to the weapon it does add a function that the previously unbanned version could not have.  Is this a big deal?  Not really.

I guess that's a point although I was actually refering to the operation of the core rifle. The "guts" of the rifle, such as the fire control group. Nothing there changes in the slightest bit. While the lug does add the ability to mount a bayonet. it really doesn't alter anything about how the rifle functions. To say that it makes the rifle significantly more deadly is laughable.

To be fair, you're misconceptions about the ban are nothing, compared to some I've seen.  There's a fairly large segment of the population who actually think that you can now simply run down to your local gun store and pick up a automatic rifle. That just isn't so.



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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #181 on: September 23, 2004, 04:04:20 pm »
If he agrees with you 100%, then why are you hiding this person?

Its a little thing called respect.   He knows who he is; if he wants to come forward and say he invited me, he will.


I've got 2 or 3 people in mind... but I'm not going to add to this thread anymore...  Good Luck with everything and feel free to contact me should you have any arcade related questions.  



Well, hey, I don'y really care one whit, so I'll end the speculation right here.

I mentioned this post to him in passing a couple of days ago. We do find issues of political relivance somewhat interesting and I thought he might find the discussion interesting. I never thought people here would stoop to calling him a redneck racist, however, or I'd have just let it drop. I especially would like to see specifiacally where he called for black-on-black violence, amoung other accusations.  If that cannot be produced, I'd like to see an apology.

I AM glad to see that we have a LOT of practicing psycologists here. At least I know I have somewhere to go to get a "free" assessment of my "problems".

And I'm not hiding from anyone, nor was I aware that this was some exclusive club, where you had to score X points in Pac-Man in order to join. Crap, I wasn't invited, guess I was wrong to sign up for a "public" forum. May the gods of the arcade take pity on my heathen soul.

I arcadecontrolls now by invite-only? I'd really like to know because my MAME cabs are generating a lot of interest amoung people I know and I'd hate to refer them here by mistake.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #182 on: September 23, 2004, 04:28:55 pm »
And I'm not hiding from anyone, nor was I aware that this was some exclusive club, where you had to score X points in Pac-Man in order to join. Crap, I wasn't invited, guess I was wrong to sign up for a "public" forum. May the gods of the arcade take pity on my heathen soul.

I arcadecontrolls now by invite-only? I'd really like to know because my MAME cabs are generating a lot of interest amoung people I know and I'd hate to refer them here by mistake.


Ok... Scroll to the top of the page.. what does it say...

Any Arcade Controls related question is welcome here.  This is a public forum and anyone can join to discuss BYOAC related items.  Nobody needs to be invited to join the BYOAC Forum... (Hey, wait, didn't you invite TA Pilot to join)

While we all love a good debate once and awhile, sometimes things get out of hand.  Some people are on the fence with some issues and some people are intrenched with their views on a subject.  Nothing said within this forum makes any difference nor will it make someone change their viewpoint on an issue.

This forum was created to promote fun times and to remember days when all that mattered was getting to the next level of Mario Bros or Pac-Man.  And deep debates about world issues can be discussed in greater detail on many other forums out there... and do nothing to add value to the BYOAC forums.


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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #183 on: September 23, 2004, 04:35:40 pm »
Ok... Scroll to the top of the page.. what does it say...

The Clinton gun ban has expired!



Any Arcade Controls related question is welcome here.  This is a public forum and anyone can join to discuss BYOAC related items.

And so, when DD started the topic, did you whine like you are now?



Nothing said within this forum makes any difference nor will it make someone change their viewpoint on an issue.

Thats pretty sad - especially when you're arguing from a position of ignorance.  That, in and of itself is fine  - its when you refuse to be enlightened or refuse to change your position in light of same is it sad.

If you;re not willing to learn, then you can't be helped.  Wallow in your willful ignorance.  Just dont cry when people pummel your inane ideas.



deep debates about world issues can be discussed in greater detail on many other forums out there... and do nothing to add value to the BYOAC forums.

And so, when DD started the topic, did you whine like you are now?


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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #184 on: September 23, 2004, 04:42:30 pm »
And I'm not hiding from anyone, nor was I aware that this was some exclusive club, where you had to score X points in Pac-Man in order to join. Crap, I wasn't invited, guess I was wrong to sign up for a "public" forum. May the gods of the arcade take pity on my heathen soul.

I arcadecontrolls now by invite-only? I'd really like to know because my MAME cabs are generating a lot of interest amoung people I know and I'd hate to refer them here by mistake.


Ok... Scroll to the top of the page.. what does it say...

Any Arcade Controls related question is welcome here.  This is a public forum and anyone can join to discuss BYOAC related items.  Nobody needs to be invited to join the BYOAC Forum... (Hey, wait, didn't you invite TA Pilot to join)

While we all love a good debate once and awhile, sometimes things get out of hand.  Some people are on the fence with some issues and some people are intrenched with their views on a subject.  Nothing said within this forum makes any difference nor will it make someone change their viewpoint on an issue.

This forum was created to promote fun times and to remember days when all that mattered was getting to the next level of Mario Bros or Pac-Man.  And deep debates about world issues can be discussed in greater detail on many other forums out there... and do nothing to add value to the BYOAC forums.



OK, scroll to the forum list.

See the one that say 'Everything Else'?

Want to elaborate on what exactly that means, then?


If this is such a valueless topic (and, one, I might add, that I didn't bring up), why was it posted? Better yet, why do you bother to respond? Why hasn't it been deleated yet?

I mearly passed a link along. If that constuitutes an 'invite' and a serious breech of the rules, feel free to suspend my account. I note that there are a LOT of other topics out there that have not one thing to do with BYOAC or anything remotely related to it. Feel free to 'remind' everybody posting in those topics that they're on the wrong site too.

It appears to me that somebody needs to get busy and get rid of all the non-related posts in the 'Everything Else ARCADE RELATED' forum. You might want to get the name changed, too, while you're at it. We don't want anyone else getting the wrong idea, do we?

All these 'valueless' posts are getting rather outof hand.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #185 on: September 23, 2004, 04:52:58 pm »
I've only just seen the picture at the botto of TA Pilots posts, with the child with the shotgun saying 'teach em while they're young'

I find that simply abhorrent.....  :(
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #186 on: September 23, 2004, 05:00:07 pm »
Ok... Scroll to the top of the page.. what does it say...

Hmm... when I scroll to the top of the page it says... Arcade Controls.com


Any Arcade Controls related question is welcome here.  This is a public forum and anyone can join to discuss BYOAC related items.

And so, when DD started the topic, did you whine like you are now?


How am I whining?  I've just stated my position about this thread in general.  Let me guess, if someone is not on the same page as you with an issue... you classify their responses as whining.... That's find by me...


Nothing said within this forum makes any difference nor will it make someone change their viewpoint on an issue.

Thats pretty sad - especially when you're arguing from a position of ignorance.  That, in and of itself is fine  - its when you refuse to be enlightened or refuse to change your position in light of same is it sad.

If you;re not willing to learn, then you can't be helped.  Wallow in your willful ignorance.  Just dont cry when people pummel your inane ideas.


Hm.. I didn't know I was arguing a position of gun control??  Check the 5 pages of responses.. I only posted on comment at the beginning of this threat.

Also, from reading your responses it looks like your not willing to learn.  As, you have one view point and dismiss any responses against it.  And trust me, nothing you say or have said have taught me anything...  

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #187 on: September 23, 2004, 05:02:40 pm »
Yes, its SO much better to keep guns a mystery from kids.

Everyone knows that kids never do something, just because you tell them not to.

Wierdly enough, all of the kids I grew up with that knew what guns were and who were introduced to guns at an early age, had no problems with them. They weren't the ones who accidently shot themselves and/or others. It was always the one who found the gun on the top shelf of the closet and had no idea whatsoever of who to handle such a thing properly, that managed to do the wrong things with them.

I know for a fact that TA's kids know what guns are. I also know for a fact that they cannot get to his, even thought they know where they are. I can tell you for a fact that I knew where my old man's guns were when I was young. I can also tell you that I knew better than to touch them when he wasn't around. Not that I could have probably found that ammo, anyway.

Simply ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away. What do you tell your children about stangers and child molesters? Nothing, hoping that they'll never encounter that situation? Childern that are ignorent to the dangers of the world are lucky, if they manage to grow up without encountering them.


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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #188 on: September 23, 2004, 05:06:32 pm »
Hmm... when I scroll to the top of the page it says... Arcade Controls.com

Seems to me that we've covered that, unless you have something more to say about the subject.

There's at least 3/4 of a page of posts totally unrelated to 'Arcade Controlls' in the fist page of this section of the forum alone. Why is this one the only one that offends you, if anything not related to 'Arcade Controls' is not to be here?

I note that at least one of those 'off topic' posts were started by yourself.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2004, 05:07:56 pm by tep0583 »

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #189 on: September 23, 2004, 05:07:24 pm »
I've only just seen the picture at the botto of TA Pilots posts, with the child with the shotgun saying 'teach em while they're young'

I find that simply abhorrent.....  :(

There's nothing wrong with that picture, in my opinion.  I grew up around guns.  My father taught me to respect them.  He taught me to always treat a gun (even a toy gun) as if it is loaded and never to point it at anyone.  He taught me that I was never to touch a gun unless he was there to supervise me.  And he taught me how to safely handle and shoot a gun.

I think a child is far more likely to be tempted to mess with one if he/she has never been exposed to guns.  Their curiosity will get the better of them.

But because guns were no big mystery to me, I never played with them.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2004, 05:08:05 pm by RacerX »

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #190 on: September 23, 2004, 07:18:40 pm »
I've only just seen the picture at the botto of TA Pilots posts, with the child with the shotgun saying 'teach em while they're young'.  I find that simply abhorrent.....  :(

Yeah.  Dont teach your kids how to safely handle firearms - after all the life they save might be their own.

Don't like that pic?  You'll LOVE these!







Yeah. thats a 7 and 5yr old each holding an "assault weapon".

Well, they WOULD be "assault weapons" if they had bayonette lugs.   Since they dont, they aren't.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2004, 07:52:05 pm by TA Pilot »

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #191 on: September 23, 2004, 07:32:06 pm »
Hmm... when I scroll to the top of the page it says... Arcade Controls.com

Yeah?  Whats the title of the thread?

What does '1000 reasons to tot vote for Bush' have to do with arcade controls?


How am I whining?  I've just stated my position about this thread in general.  Let me guess, if someone is not on the same page as you with an issue... you classify their responses as whining.... That's find by me...

When you go on and on about a post not having anything to do with arcade controls - when you yourself have started similar threads - then you're whining.

Don't like the posts here?  Leave.



Also, from reading your responses it looks like your not willing to learn.

Plainly, I am well-educated, both in general and on the subject.  Having said that, I'm always willing to hear cognent arguments against the provate ownership of guns of any type.

In fact, I openly stated I would listen to any reasoned argument in support of the AWB.

But I havent seen any, of either kind.

Got one?  Lets see it.


As, you have one view point and dismiss any responses against it.

Attacking an unsound premise in an effort to demonstrate thst is IS unsound?  
Thats not the 'dismissal' of an argument, thats the destruction of it.   If you can't defend your premise in the face of reasoned pressure against it - it must not be much of a premise.

Should you ever reach in instituion of higher learning, you'll understand how these things work.


And trust me, nothing you say or have said have taught me anything...  

Indeed - you're willfilly ignorant.  Youre clasping your hands over your ears and yelling as loud as you can - "I CAN"T HEAR YOU I CAN'T HEAR YOU I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!"
 

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #192 on: September 23, 2004, 07:43:53 pm »
Yes, its SO much better to keep guns a mystery from kids.

Yeah.
If you dont teach your kids how to safely handle guns at a level appropriate to their age, you're an irresponsible parent.  You're denying your child the skills he may need to save his life.

If your kid doesnt know how to effectively deal with a gun, what happens when he goes to a friend's house and there's one laying out, unatteneded?  Or his friend comes out of his parent's room saying "look what I found"?  Thats how accidents happen - and if his friends parents havent done their jopb to teach their kid, then YOUR child is defenseless --  if something happens to him, its as much YOUR fault as the other parents.

Oh, I know - you'll try to weasel out of the question by saying "I'll never let my kid go over to a house that  has guns in it".   Horseshi'ite.   You dont have a CLUE as to what other people have in their houses, and you're just plain -stupid - for trying to avoid the issue like that.  If this is your response - do the responsible thing and give your kids up for adoption.   If you dont have kids - do the responsible thing and sterilize yourself.

Its your kid.  His safety is up to you.   If a .45ACP round accidently blows out the backside of your kid's head because YOU didnt teach him how to safely deal with that gun - its YOUR fault he's dead.

Strong language?   Yep.  High stakes.


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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #193 on: September 23, 2004, 08:27:01 pm »
You stated (copied and pasted) all the reasons why an assault weapon is a nice gun.  And it is a very nice gun. But you didn't say why people would want or need such a nice gun.  There are only a few reasons.

One is collection.  You might think that a gun collector would want one, but I doubt it.  AK47's and M16's are extremely mass-produced items of weaponry, and have almost no collection value.  It would be like someone who collects cigars having a Marlboro Red cigarette in their collection.

Another possible reason is hunting.  An assault rifle is completely unnecessary in hunting.  You completely remove the sport from it.  You take out all the challenge, the skill, and the tactics, which are the real draws to hunting.  It gives the human almost every possible advantage against the animal, which also makes it inhumane.   it's much easier to kill the animal, so more animals would be killed.  You could take out a herd of buffalo with that thing. All you really need to kill a deer or two is a decent rifle.

Competitive shooters could want one, but again, it's unnecessary.  A competition would be just as competitive, if not more so, with lower powered rifles.

Personal defense: if you're in a situation where an ordinary handgun isn't enough to protect you, run away and call the police.  An ordinary citizen don't have to be able to thwart a bank robbery or a terrorist plot. That's the police's duty.  And five men with shotguns aren't going to come into your house, steal your property, and hurt your family.  And if you're one of the rare people that they're going to do that to, hire some trained body guards.

So, overall, there are very few justifyable reasons why a legitimate person would want an assault rifle.

They have no collection value, they're completely unnecessary for hunting, they're unnecessary for competition, and they're unnecessary for personal defense.  The main demographic that would buy this type of weapon would be major, violent criminals.  A criminal with an AK47 is exponentially more dangerous than a criminal with a handgun or another type of gun.  Making these guns legal would cause civilian deaths, and police deaths, and provide only a tiny benefit to the general population.

Guns are tools of murder.  Period.  They have no other function.  

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #194 on: September 23, 2004, 08:29:35 pm »
Yeah. thats a 7 and 5yr old each holding an "assault weapon".

Well, they WOULD be "assault weapons" if they had bayonette lugs.   Since they dont, they aren't.



Just wondering, do you store your weapon loaded with ammo?

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #195 on: September 23, 2004, 09:49:39 pm »
Another possible reason is hunting.  An assault rifle is completely unnecessary in hunting.  You completely remove the sport from it.  You take out all the challenge, the skill, and the tactics, which are the real draws to hunting.  It gives the human almost every possible advantage against the animal, which also makes it inhumane.   it's much easier to kill the animal, so more animals would be killed.  You could take out a herd of buffalo with that thing. All you really need to kill a deer or two is a decent rifle.
...
Guns are tools of murder.  Period.  They have no other function.  

Actually, there are *much* more accurate rifles out there than a lot of these so called assault rifles.  And you could not take out a herd of buffalo with one.  Let's not go overboard here.  Even to kill a deer you have to hit one in the right place.  You can't just willy-nilly shoot it and kill it.

And guns are not just tools of murder because there is a difference between killing and murdering.  If not, then every person who shoots someone in self defense or in the defense of another person's life would be a murderer.  And that simply is not the case.

I think both of you are getting a bit carried away here.  Making as extreme a statement as you can about a topic (on either side) does not help make your point.

Let's all be friends here, okay?   :)

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #196 on: September 23, 2004, 10:22:44 pm »
But you didn't say why people would want or need such a nice gun.  There are only a few reasons.

Sure I did.
An "assault weapon" is suitable for use in any legal and legitimate way you might use a gun.  Hunting.  target shooting.  Self-defense.  Collecting.  Et al.


You might think that a gun collector would want one, but I doubt it.  AK47's and M16's are extremely mass-produced items of weaponry, and have almost no collection value.

Ah.  A position of ignorance.   Thats one.
News for you , bub-  A genuine M-16 is wort up to $7000.  An M-14 w/ selector?  $6k easy.  A REAL Soviet AK?   Can't touch 'em for under $4k.  These values go up every year.
 


An assault rifle is completely unnecessary in hunting. You completely remove the sport from it.  You take out all the challenge, the skill, and the tactics, which are the real draws to hunting.

Let me ask you something:
Why do you think a .308 round from my M14 is any 'less sporting" than a .308 round from my Remington M-700 bolt action rifle?

Your argument here is predicated on the idea that you're going to fire a burst from the rifle when hunting.   This is your second position of ignorance.



All you really need to kill a deer or two is a decent rifle.

And my M14 is just that rifle.  One shot, one kill.



Competitive shooters could want one, but again, it's unnecessary.  A competition would be just as competitive, if not more so, with lower powered rifles.

You dont know much about competive rifle shooting.  Let me help you with your third postion based in ignorance.

There's two disciplines of rifle comnpetition: smallbore and highpower.  

Smallbore uses 22LR ammo at ranges to 100yds.  Highpower comes in two flavors - XTC (Across the course, 200 to 600yds)) and Long Range (600 to 1000yds).   Even a prissy smallbore shooter will admit - you cant shoot smallbore XTC, much less LR.

Within the two highpower groups, there's two classes of rifle - match rifle and Service rifle.

Service rifle means the civilian equivelant to any USGI service rifle - the M1903, M1 Garand, M14 and M16.

The latter 2 are "assault weapons".  Most match rifles would also qualify as such, though they sometimes look very unlike service rifles.

Every year, literally thousands of people, all armed with "assault weapons" come together at Camp Perry Ohio for the National Rifle and Pistol matches.  I have pics, if you want some.

So, "assault weapons" hace a clear and distinct role in competition, and are some are -highly- sought after for this purpose.



Personal defense: if you're in a situation where an ordinary handgun isn't enough to protect you, run away and call the police.

Thats great - if you can.


An ordinary citizen don't have to be able to thwart a bank robbery or a terrorist plot. That's the police's duty.  And five men with shotguns aren't going to come into your house, steal your property, and hurt your family.  And if you're one of the rare people that they're going to do that to, hire some trained body guards.

And this means my AR-15 isnt suitable for use in a self-defense situation, because...?


So, overall, there are very few justifyable reasons why a legitimate person would want an assault rifle. They have no collection value, they're completely unnecessary for hunting, they're unnecessary for competition, and they're unnecessary for personal defense.  

Three of your arguments are based in ignorance.   The fourth doesnt do anything to show that an "assault wapon" isn't useful.   You're 0 for 4.



The main demographic that would buy this type of weapon would be major, violent criminals.

Then explain why so few are used for crime, and so many others are used for legitimate purposes.

There were 480 murders committed w/ rifles in 2002.   If they were all "assault weapons", that 480 represents 1/5th the number of competitors in just ONE highpower match at the nationals.



A criminal with an AK47 is exponentially more dangerous than a criminal with a handgun or another type of gun.

Wait - werent you saying that I dont need an AW for defense?  What if the bad guy has an AK - that makes him exponetially more dangerous, right?



Making these guns legal would cause civilian deaths, and police deaths, and provide only a tiny benefit to the general population.

The guns have been legal, for a long time.   Remember the two pictures of the rifles I posted?   One was banned and one wasnt?   If you're right, and making them legal will 'cause civial deaths' - where are they?  The guns have aways been legal - sop there should be deaths - right?



Guns are tools of murder.  Period.  They have no other function.  

Plainly, given this post, this is your 4th position of ignorance.


Here comes the REAL question:
Now that you know better - will you change your mind, or will you continue to wallow in your ignorance?

« Last Edit: September 23, 2004, 10:37:04 pm by TA Pilot »

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #197 on: September 23, 2004, 10:29:20 pm »
Just wondering, do you store your weapon loaded with ammo?

What kind of stupid question is that?

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #198 on: September 24, 2004, 12:22:42 am »
soliloquising
made it to the "S" section, have we  ;)




"see? it says choo-choo-choose....and it's a train"  ;D
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #199 on: September 24, 2004, 04:21:45 am »
He, he, amazing. Now the two caricature-like redneck types are at it together. They are
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #200 on: September 24, 2004, 04:32:18 am »
Someone who thinks:
- a persons life is OK if he/she is stealing your stuff (vigilantism)
- black people killing black people is a fortunate thing (racism)
- there will come a time when he is called upon to "take up arms" (terrorism?)

All in all he is a prime example of someone who should not be allowed to own firearms (due to mental deficiencies and criminal tendencies) proclaiming his "right" to own firearms. He has to be a bad joke.



WOW.
You know, if you didnt misrepresent my positions or read into them whatever you feel necessary to read into them, then maybe you'd have something.
Oh...  know, if me didnt misrepresent your positions or read into them whatever me feel necessary to read into them, then maybe you'd have something?

Quote
- (taking) a persons life is OK if he/she is stealing your stuff (vigilantism)
Self-defense isnt vigilanteism.  You have the right to use deadly force when necessary to protect your rights.  This means it IS OK to take someone elses life, if necesary, to protect yourself.
We were discussing you, not me.

Quote
- black people killing black people is a fortunate thing
Please show me where I placed a moral value on the level of black-on-black crime in the US.
Are such questions on your mind often?

Quote
- there will come a time when he is called upon to "take up arms"
This sort of thing has happened several times in several places in the last 250 years.  No reason whatsoever to think it cant happen here, again.
Are you sure?

Quote
On the other hand I'm intrigued how real Americans feel on this subject.

Since I disagree with you, I'm not a "real American"?
Wow.
Do you believe it is normal to be not a" real American"?

Quote
I'm also unsure how guns are supposed to improve the outcome of burglaries, robberies or rapes.

This may be a stretch...   but by scaring away the bad guy - and failing that, rendering him physically incapable of committing the crim in question?
What does that suggest to you?

Quote
For the life of me I can't see how guns would help in any normal scenario

Oh - YOU can't imagine it, and therefore it cant be so.
Oh...  can't imagine it, and therefore it cant be so?

Quote
Either someone dies (or gets seriously hurt) or the crime ends as it would have been without the guns.
Or...the criminal runs away/ is wounded/is killed, and the victim is safe -as is usually the case.
I see.

Quote
The net result would be dead and wounded people against maybe a few less stolen items. That hardly sounds like a fair trade.

Whats wrong with wounded/dead criminals and uninjured victims?
Don't you ever say Hello?

Quote
I searched for statistics about how guns would make things better, but all I could find where figures on how they make things worse.

Try harder.   Guns are used to stop crime between 1.5 and 2 million times each year in the US.
What does that suggest to you?

Quote
Thats 1.5-2 million fewer victims.
I see.

Quote
The problem I have is when people think it's OK to use guns outside the shooting range and feel the need to keep their firearms at easy reach.

Tell me:
Of what use is my gun if I can only use it at the range and I cannot get to it?
Why do you ask?

Quote
That's where innocent people end up getting killed (I saw figures of 800 to 1000 people dying from firearm accidents earlier).

Yes.  ~800 asccidental deaths, 300,000,000 guns.
What % is that?  0.00026%
What problem, accidents?
Have you asked anyone else?

Quote
I guess you might make a joke of it and call it "natural selection", but then I assume you would think differently if your own kid would have found your gun.

I've been a responsible parent.   My kids, appropriate to their age, know how to safely deal with a gun.
What answer would please you the most?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2004, 04:33:43 am by patrickl »
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #201 on: September 24, 2004, 05:48:28 am »
soliloquising
made it to the "S" section, have we  ;)




"see? it says choo-choo-choose....and it's a train"  ;D

hehe. got to that word some time ago...

hey, do you hear banjos?


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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #202 on: September 24, 2004, 08:13:46 am »
It IS nice to see the "script" used by the antis is exactly the same here as well.

1) scare
2) scare
3) scare
4) demonize
5) change the subject.

You have to throw in the manditory derogatory terms, such as "redneck" as well as accusations of racism. Apparently those can occur as part of #4, or as random comments.

Doesn't anyone ever change the playbook, or is that as good as it gets?

Nobody ever gets tired of calling names and racebaiting?

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #203 on: September 24, 2004, 08:18:35 am »
Doesn't anyone ever change the playbook, or is that as good as it gets?  Nobody ever gets tired of calling names and racebaiting?


I, for one, am looking forward to Beaker's response.  Only the Powers That Be know what he'll come up with next.

Though I am sure you're right - he'll adhere to the script.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #204 on: September 24, 2004, 08:27:23 am »
The hunting comments are classic!

Does anyone REALLY think that its legal to hunt with a 30 round mag?????

I get visions of a bunch of clowns, bounceing about in their 4x4, blasting away randomly as they plow through a field full of deer. Its an amusing thought, but about as realistic as most anything that comes out of Hollywood. (which is the olny place you'd see this sort of thing actually work) Deer are smart, they're not just going to stand still for you and if you miss with the first shot, you're not going to hit with any number you might send after them. On the off chance that you did, there'd be a huge chance of only wounding them and/or ruining the meat.

If you want to talk about "sporting", ditch the gun entirely and try it with a bow, not that there's any relevance to the topic at hand, but, since it was brought up......



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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #205 on: September 24, 2004, 12:35:25 pm »
hehe. got to that word some time ago...

hey, do you hear banjos?
re:  comment #1 - liar, and I can tell because your pants are aflame  ;)

re:  comment #2 - kinda sounding like  be ne neer neer neer neer neer ? :D
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #206 on: September 24, 2004, 03:47:38 pm »
Doesn't anyone ever change the playbook, or is that as good as it gets?  Nobody ever gets tired of calling names and racebaiting?


I, for one, am looking forward to Beaker's response.  Only the Powers That Be know what he'll come up with next.
Have you asked such questions before?
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #207 on: September 24, 2004, 03:49:08 pm »
Nobody ever gets tired of calling names and racebaiting?
Surely not everyone?
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #208 on: September 24, 2004, 03:51:47 pm »
The hunting comments are classic!

Does anyone REALLY think that its legal to hunt with a 30 round mag?????
What would you like me to say in response to that?
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #209 on: September 24, 2004, 04:06:08 pm »
This thread has been beaten to death.. please stop responding to it and let it fade away....

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #210 on: September 24, 2004, 06:08:05 pm »
we don't have to teach our children how to shoot real guns because we don't have guns in our houses
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #211 on: September 24, 2004, 09:09:22 pm »

This thread has been beaten to death.. please stop responding to it and let it fade away....


Wow.

Now THAT'S a gallant defense of your argument against "assault weapons"!!  


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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #212 on: September 24, 2004, 09:13:04 pm »

we don't have to teach our children how to shoot real guns because we don't have guns in our houses


Who said anything about shooting them?  

I was talking about teaching them the ability to safely handle them - a skill they need whether you have a gun in the house or not.

As I said - what happens when your kid goes across the street?  Do -they- have a gun?  Do -they- know how to safely store one?  Are you willing to bet you kid's life on the answers?

Dont want to take my advice?  Thats fine.  Dont come here (or anywhere else) and whine about gun accidents when your irresponsibility caused your kid's grey matter to be splattered across a wall.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #213 on: September 25, 2004, 07:09:34 am »

This thread has been beaten to death.. please stop responding to it and let it fade away....


Wow.

Now THAT'S a gallant defense of your argument against "assault weapons"!!  
Why are you concerned about his argument against" assault weapons"?
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #214 on: September 25, 2004, 07:12:21 am »

we don't have to teach our children how to shoot real guns because we don't have guns in our houses


Who said anything about shooting them?  
Why do you ask?

Quote
I was talking about teaching them the ability to safely handle them - a skill they need whether you have a gun in the house or not.

As I said - what happens when your kid goes across the street?  Do -they- have a gun?  Do -they- know how to safely store one?  Are you willing to bet you kid's life on the answers?
Have you asked anyone else? Why are you interested in whether or not we are willing to bet our kid's life on the answers?

Quote
Dont want to take my advice?  Thats fine.  Dont come here (or anywhere else) and whine about gun accidents when your irresponsibility caused your kid's grey matter to be splattered across a wall.
What does that suggest to you?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2004, 07:13:24 am by patrickl »
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #215 on: September 25, 2004, 11:03:18 am »
hehe. got to that word some time ago...

hey, do you hear banjos?
re:  comment #1 - liar, and I can tell because your pants are aflame  ;)

re:  comment #2 - kinda sounding like  be ne neer neer neer neer neer ? :D

yeah, that's the one  ;D


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DrewKaree

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #216 on: September 25, 2004, 11:24:04 am »
I LOVE it when we can pull a "Floyd10" and it isn't even noticed!

 8)
You’re always in control of your behavior. Sometimes you just control yourself
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #217 on: September 25, 2004, 11:33:27 am »
I LOVE it when we can pull a "Floyd10" and it isn't even noticed!

 8)

they missed our secret hand-shake...


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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #218 on: September 25, 2004, 11:37:24 am »
I LOVE it when we can pull a "Floyd10" and it isn't even noticed!


How about those cubs?

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #219 on: September 25, 2004, 11:49:05 am »
I LOVE it when we can pull a "Floyd10" and it isn't even noticed!


How about those cubs?
Have you asked such questions before?

I guess they did see through my Eliza fun though  :-\
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #220 on: September 25, 2004, 12:12:09 pm »
I LOVE it when we can pull a "Floyd10" and it isn't even noticed!


How about those cubs?
I saw that, but they had replied to it before I could...I was gonna say

hey batta batta batta batta sa wiing batta hecanthit hecanthit hecanthit hecanthit
You’re always in control of your behavior. Sometimes you just control yourself
in ways that you later wish you hadn’t

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #221 on: September 27, 2004, 03:33:14 am »
Wow, she sure is safe.

Or as Eliza would say: Don't you ever say Hello?
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #222 on: September 27, 2004, 09:03:44 am »
As I said - what happens when your kid goes across the street?  Do -they- have a gun?  Do -they- know how to safely store one?  Are you willing to bet you kid's life on the answers?

...when will you get it through your thick head that in Britain.. nobody has guns. Our kids don't come across them... ever.

Do your kids know how to safely operate and maintain, say,  a space shuttle?

no??

why on earth not.

oh, hang on, nobody there has one.... so you DONT NEED TO.

see my point?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2004, 09:06:08 am by hunky_artist »
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #223 on: September 27, 2004, 09:13:06 am »
...when will you get it through your thick head that in Britain.. nobody has guns. Our kids don't come across them... ever.

Really.
So...
I cant find one example of private gun ownership in the UK?
I cant find one example of an accidental gun death in the UK?
Right?


see my point?

Yes.
You're irresposnible.
But hey - its your kid, not mine.
Dont cry when his brains wind up all over a wall.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #224 on: September 27, 2004, 09:26:29 am »
hey TA pilot, how's that arcade game project coming along?


What arcade project?

"Everything Else"
"The Clinton gun ban has expired!"

TA Pilot

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #225 on: September 27, 2004, 09:37:50 am »
so it's not going so well then?

There isnt, one, so it can't be not going well.



well if you're stuck be sure to check out the other sections of this forum for tips...

Why?  I have no such project, and I do not plan to engage in any such project.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #226 on: September 27, 2004, 09:41:08 am »
so it's not going so well then?

There isnt, one, so it can't be not going well.



well if you're stuck be sure to check out the other sections of this forum for tips...

Why?  I have no such project, and I do not plan to engage in any such project.
Too busy teaching your kid how to defend himself from you?
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #227 on: September 27, 2004, 09:47:42 am »
Too busy teaching your kid how to defend himself from you?

Why would they need to do that?

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #228 on: September 27, 2004, 09:52:19 am »
Too busy teaching your kid how to defend himself from you?

Why would they need to do that?
What do you think?
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #229 on: September 27, 2004, 09:57:10 am »
What do you think?

You're the one that seems to think they need to defend them selves from me.  You tell me.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #230 on: September 27, 2004, 10:09:37 am »
What do you think?

You're the one that seems to think they need to defend them selves from me.  You tell me.
Perhaps you would like to be the one that seems to think they need to defend them selves from you.
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #231 on: September 27, 2004, 10:12:57 am »
Perhaps you would like to be the one that seems to think they need to defend them selves from you.

Perhaps you dont have anything intelligent to say on the subject, so you resort to petty inanity.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #232 on: September 27, 2004, 10:15:44 am »
don't be ashamed to ask if you're stuck...


I dont gove 2 shakes about gaming cabs.  This topic is about gun control.  See the topic header.

If you dont like it, dont read the replies.  Its really that simple - and since you havent added anything intelligent to the debate, you really arent going to hurt my feelings if you dont come back.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #233 on: September 27, 2004, 10:25:08 am »
when will you get it through your thick head that in Britain.. nobody has guns. Our kids don't come across them... ever.

Ok- the above is either a lie, or a statement made in complete ignorance.

In England and Wales at the end of 2001 there were 119,560 firearm certificates on issue covering 301,000 firearms (nearly three quarters are rifles), and 577,171 shotgun certificates covering 1,307,576 shotguns.  With the exception of the number of firearms covered, all these figures are lower than the previous years.  One percent and just over one and a half percent, respectively, of applications for new firearm and shotgun certificates made during 2001 were refused.

In Scotland at the end of 2003 there were 26,605 firearm certificates (an increase of 1 percent on 2002) on issue covering the possession of 60,440 firearms (a decrease of 0.3 percent), and 52,421 shotgun certificates (an increase of 1 percent) covering 125,395 shotguns (an increase of 2.3 percent).  For both firearm and shotgun certificates new applications were down on 2002.

Sources:
-Firearm Certificates by Alan Gray.  Chapter 9 in Crime in England and Wales, 2001/2002: Supplementary Volume.  January 2003.

-Firearms Certificates Statistics, Scotland, 2003.  Scottish Executive Statistical Bulletin. May 2004




Now that your cop-out has been demonstrated invalid,  tell me again why it is you, in the UK, think you can shirk your responsibilities and do not need to teach your kids how to safely deal with firearms?

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #234 on: September 27, 2004, 10:49:15 am »
Perhaps you would like to be the one that seems to think they need to defend them selves from you.

Perhaps you dont have anything intelligent to say on the subject, so you resort to petty inanity.

We were discussing you, not me.
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #235 on: September 27, 2004, 05:43:33 pm »
in all of my travelling and in all the villages, countryside and cities i've been in up and down the length of this country i had NEVER come across ANYBODY who own any kind of firearm.

Nor has anybody I know

I'll modify my original statement. I dont mean nobody has rifles, I mean we as a country dont.

the examples you gave of people with shotguns, are all in the deep countryside, on farms or country estates. .....acres of land with a farmer or estate owner hunting grouse and the like.

the huge majority (and i really do mean majority) of people in this country live in and around cities.... nobody in cities and normal villages has firearms. nobody.

you see why we dont need to teach our kids how to hold guns now?

they're not gonna need it

why can't you accept that no child in normal british existance, apart from those growing up on farms or country estates, needs or ever in their life has access to, a firearm.

when was the last time your kids had access to a blue whale on public land.

oh hang on, thats something you can accept doesn't happen.

accept that this doesnt happen. we live here, you dont
« Last Edit: September 27, 2004, 06:55:05 pm by hunky_artist »
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #236 on: September 27, 2004, 07:26:28 pm »
I'll modify my original statement. I dont mean nobody has rifles, I mean we as a country dont.

Clearly, you , as a country, do.   Several hundred thousand of them.



the examples you gave of people with shotguns, are all in the deep countryside, on farms or country estates. .....acres of land with a farmer or estate owner hunting grouse and the like.

Yeah?   I thought they didnt have any guns.
Change your mind?



you see why we dont need to teach our kids how to hold guns now?

No.   I dont.  Your country has a significant number of guns, and there isnt any any way to support the argument that your kids will never come across one.



why can't you accept that no child in normal british existance, apart from those growing up on farms or country estates, needs or ever in their life has access to, a firearm.

Lesse...  because its not so?  Just a few hours ago, you were arguing that no one had guns...  now you;re arguing that they're only on estates, etc.   Plainly you arent a master of fact, and therefore your assertions are, at best, circumspect.

And you're missing a significant part of the point - "access" isnt "my dad had a gun in the safe".  "Access" is "hey!! Look whst I found!!"


The very first time your kid comes home with his head blown off, you'll understand how wrong you were and how right I am.


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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #237 on: September 27, 2004, 07:30:41 pm »
don't be ashamed to ask if you're stuck, you know. we're here to help. there's heaps of people here you are excellent with software, others are great cabinet makers. me, i'm a bit of a jack of all trades. we've scared him off recently but paigeoliver is one of the guys to ask if you want to buy a genuine cab...
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#2 - I don't consider myself a "great" cabinet maker, but if you say so.... ;)

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #238 on: September 27, 2004, 07:35:02 pm »
accept that this doesnt happen. we live here, you dont
said the Brit commenting on U.S. weapons pollicies.  ::)

You REALLY should hit preview before posting...remember, a shut mouth gathers no foot.

TA, I SOOOO can't believe you passed over that comment FIRST!  You are slipping, man!  That rationale invalidates any of his comments!
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #239 on: September 27, 2004, 07:46:53 pm »
TaPilot,

What the Hell?  Who are you?  How many kids do you have?  What city were you born in?  I don't believe that there is any life on Mars.  Guns kill.  Nobody in the history of mankind has ever managed to kill anyone without a gun.  If there were no guns there would be no murder.....EVER.  The moon landing was not a fake.  Clay pigeons should be illegal.

Shmokes

p.s.  I just love to see these jarring replies of TaPilot's where he compulsively responds to EVERY single sentence in the prior post (though, almost comically refrains from using the "quote" feature of the message board).  I just figured I'd try to add some liveliness to his posts by giving him some nice sentences to respond to, one-by-one.  I'm especially looking forward to his response to "What the hell?"  I'm predicting a classic.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2004, 08:03:08 pm by shmokes »
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #240 on: September 27, 2004, 08:00:14 pm »
(though, almost comically refrains from using the "quote" feature of the message board)
listen, STOP YELLING AT ME!  ;)  

I TOLD him and showed him this before, so stop getting on my case....MAN....can't a guy catch a break?  

p.s.
what's with all these political threads?  Can we get a new forum for them  ;) ;D  Something to contain all our redneckery?
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #241 on: September 27, 2004, 08:40:31 pm »
said the Brit commenting on U.S. weapons pollicies.  

i've not been commenting on US weapons policies, ive been commenting on ownership of weapons in general. It could have been any country
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #242 on: September 27, 2004, 09:28:27 pm »

TA, I SOOOO can't believe you passed over that comment FIRST!  You are slipping, man!  That rationale invalidates any of his comments!

Sorry, man.
Too much whiskey and beer at work. ;D

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #243 on: September 27, 2004, 09:34:07 pm »
i've not been commenting on US weapons policies, ive been commenting on ownership of weapons in general. It could have been any country

Actually, you've been trying to convince yourself that kids dont need to know how to safely deal with guns - and no matter what the reality of the situation might be, you're doing a darn good job of it.

I especially like the analogies w/ the blue whales.  

But, again, what it comes down to is that when you find your kid with his brains all over the ceiling, the first words through you rmind will be "oh, no....  he was right".




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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #244 on: September 27, 2004, 09:41:48 pm »
But, again, what it comes down to is that when you find your kid with his brains all over the ceiling, the first words through you rmind will be "oh, no....  he was right".

omg WHEN will you learn that that doesnt... happen... in Britain

sheesh

you're going round in circles now and not even listening to what im saying. and i wasnt saying that kids shouldnt be taught guns at an early age. i wasnt that specific.

i said that any people not in the active military or armed services of any kind should not have acccess to guns.

not just kids, but thats what it went down to.

depsite me trying to calm it down by saying in your country you need them, in our country we dont.

we're diffferent.

but still you couldnt accept that and kept saying about my kids getting their brains blown out.....

....with WHAT exactly????

an action man gun??? Mr Potato head??? a piece of chalk perhaps!!

cos thats the worsst they're going to get their hands on in this country.

people from britain, back me up please? this guys doing my head in, lol

ok, i'm off, back to the arcade cabs, why i came here in the first place......
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #245 on: September 27, 2004, 09:49:09 pm »
WHEN will you learn that that doesnt... happen... in Britain

Bullshi'ite.  Where there are guns, there are gun accidents.
There are guns in the UK.  Thus, there are gun accidents in the UK.



're going round in circles now and not even listening to what im saying. and i wasnt saying that kids shouldnt be taught guns at an early age. i wasnt that specific.

And yet, thats been my argument over the last, what, 20 posts.   If you havent been arguing against my argument, what -have- you been arguing against?



I said that any people not in the active military or armed services of any kind should not have acccess to guns.

And that little gem is based on....?



but still you couldnt accept that and kept saying about my kids getting their brains blown out...with WHAT exactly????

Seems to me I posted a source from your government that shows how many guns you have in your country.

One of those.




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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #246 on: September 27, 2004, 09:52:37 pm »
meh...  ::)
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #247 on: September 27, 2004, 10:25:54 pm »
i've not been commenting on US weapons policies, ive been commenting on ownership of weapons in general. It could have been any country
Well this reply is going to frustrate you then, but if you give a few good shoves....I think you've got most of your foot in there...one or two more and I think you can get the heel in there too.

You say "...in general.  It could have been any country", and yet, your words betray you, and it's not in my nature to let you casually brush off something when, clearly you should account for your words!
(and don't give me that 'it's so we can defend ourselves and our country,and take our country back from an opressive government' crap... you have that now and i dont see any of you taking to the streets)
see, THAT could be construed as "could have been any country".

... so if that's true you shouldn't have any higher a percentage of murders in your country than anywhere else, right?

how come The States then has more murders per year for the population, than most countries out there?

and I'm including countries that have guns,  not just the ones that dont.
OOPS!  There goes the pinky toe!

South Africa has been independant for  a loooong time.

And yes, we have strict gun control laws, and yes, we have less gun murders than you do.
SHUCKS!  There goes the next toe!

don't be so sure, when we ruled three quarters of the planet we thought the same (and have you seen how many countries are still part of the commonwealth? look for the british flags in other country's flags for just some of them)


So, in a way the USA isn't just protecting the world's supreme government, but it's protecting the world's supreme being.

You're kidding right? Now you think that the US is protecting GOD?

Jesus, you REALLY ARE up your own arses arent you
Well, I guess when you said it could be any country, what you meant was "I'll comment on the U.S. until it no longer suits my purpose and then I'll hope no one reads what I post.....would you like some (toe)jam with that third toe?

oh.... an American. That explains a lot.  ::)

See, over in the US, you seem to have a lot more NEED to defend yourselves with deadly force.... and therein lies our argument.
Good GOLLY...only one more toe to go!  Are you SURE you meant to say "could have been any country", cuz it sure seems like you refer to the U.S. almost exclusively in this, a U.S. POLICY THREAD.

Let's just agree that in The States guns are needed to feel safe against a more violent criminal aspect which more often than not is armed... and in Europe and elsewhere guns are not needed as more often than not criminals don't have guns for the reasons listed. For your average crime they don't need them.

we'll be here forever otherwise going round in circles.

Americans are happy wanting guns to feel safe and I'm happy not wanting guns to feel safe.

we're all different  :)
MORE U.S. talk?!?!?!?  And you should sound a lot more garbled with all five toes in there!

...when will you get it through your thick head that in Britain.. nobody has guns. Our kids don't come across them... ever.

Do your kids know how to safely operate and maintain, say,  a space shuttle?

no??

why on earth not.

oh, hang on, nobody there has one.... so you DONT NEED TO.

see my point?
He does "get it", but what you're NOT getting is that he's referring to the U.S. POLICY and how it will affect all those for whom (thread topic, please)"The Clinton ban has expired!"  That's why he continues to argue his point.  He views it as applicable in every case IN THE U.S.

I'm going to have to penalize you half an arch for not listening while claiming others aren't listening.  

in all of my travelling and in all the villages, countryside and cities i've been in up and down the length of this country i had NEVER come across ANYBODY who own any kind of firearm.

Nor has anybody I know

I'll modify my original statement. I dont mean nobody has rifles, I mean we as a country dont.

the examples you gave of people with shotguns, are all in the deep countryside, on farms or country estates. .....acres of land with a farmer or estate owner hunting grouse and the like.

the huge majority (and i really do mean majority) of people in this country live in and around cities.... nobody in cities and normal villages has firearms. nobody.

you see why we dont need to teach our kids how to hold guns now?

they're not gonna need it

why can't you accept that no child in normal british existance, apart from those growing up on farms or country estates, needs or ever in their life has access to, a firearm.

when was the last time your kids had access to a blue whale on public land.

oh hang on, thats something you can accept doesn't happen.

accept that this doesnt happen. we live here, you dont
well, seeing as NO ONE in the U.S. has a blue whale, not even the "faraway mythical farmers" you prattle on about, the chances are pretty remote, BUT here in the U.S., I bet with the right permits, we COULD have our kids run across them  ;D  God Bless the United States of America!  

Again, he's speaking based on facts your country spews out.  Now, unless it's all cows, sheep, and goats getting killed by firearms in your country, you'll have to begin acknowledging facts put in front of you rather than "your experience".  The sad truth is that just because your kids "will never run across 'em", it IS highly possible that another kid WILL.  

And so we don't confuse the countries, in the U.S. it MAY be possible, as well.  Of which, this is relating to "The Clinton ban is expired"!  

I penalize you the rest....so far you are up to your metatarsal arch...like I said, one or two more good pushes and you'll have that heel in tootsweet!

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #248 on: September 27, 2004, 10:50:01 pm »
Seriously Drew,

I have no idea what you just wrote.  Neither does anybody else because nobody in their right mind would be willing to read all that.  What, are you and TaPilot in a competition to see who can write the most mind-numbingly long, boring posts EVER?

And TaPilot,

What the hell?  You'll disect Hunky_Artist point by excruciating point, but you won't give my post a go?  Was it too much for you to handle?  Does my intellect make your eyes hurt?  Huh?  Bring it on?  Go ahead; just try to take on one of my posts.

Shmokes

p.s.  I hope he at least goes for "What the Hell, this time?"

p.p.s.  You guys seriously ought to try to sum up what you have to say in a nice, essay form.  A couple of well-written paragraphs can go a lot way into tricking people into thinking you aren't both full of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---  ;)
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #249 on: September 28, 2004, 04:45:28 am »
What the hell?  You'll disect Hunky_Artist point by excruciating point, but you won't give my post a go?
Ha, at least he responded to some of my dumb automated Eliza responses  :P I guess you are just too clever for him to even dare to respond.
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #250 on: September 28, 2004, 06:23:20 am »
What the hell?  You'll disect Hunky_Artist point by excruciating point, but you won't give my post a go?
Ha, at least he responded to some of my dumb automated Eliza responses  :P I guess you are just too clever for him to even dare to respond.

(sound of penny dropping in background). patrickl, you were way too subtle!! i only just got what you were doing!


ROUGHING UP THE SUSPECT SINCE 1981

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #251 on: September 28, 2004, 07:54:37 am »
You'll disect Hunky_Artist point by excruciating point, but you won't give my post a go?  Was it too much for you to handle?  Does my intellect make your eyes hurt?  Huh?  Bring it on?  Go ahead; just try to take on one of my posts.

When you post something worth responding to, that has points worthy of dissection...


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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #252 on: September 28, 2004, 09:20:39 am »
You say "...in general.  It could have been any country", and yet, your words betray you

When people from other countries join in, then I'll debate with them too

As it stands the only people saying they need/want guns are from The States, who else would you like me to talk to?


...however I'll go back to a quote from one of my much earlier posts, because I'm honestly getting bored of going round in circles, and I have better things to do... all I wanted to do was state some opinions

Quote
Let's just agree that in The States guns are needed to feel safe against a more violent criminal aspect which more often than not is armed... and in Europe and elsewhere guns are not needed as more often than not criminals don't have guns for the reasons listed. For your average crime they don't need them.

we'll be here forever otherwise going round in circles.

Americans are happy wanting guns to feel safe and I'm happy not wanting guns to feel safe.

we're all different  :)
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #253 on: September 28, 2004, 01:52:35 pm »
Seriously Drew.....You guys seriously ought to try to sum up what you have to say in a nice, essay form.  A couple of well-written paragraphs can go a lot way into tricking people into thinking you aren't both full of <auto-censored>  ;)
I'm great, you suck.  nener nener boo boo ;)

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #254 on: September 28, 2004, 01:53:58 pm »
Seriously Drew.....You guys seriously ought to try to sum up what you have to say in a nice, essay form.  A couple of well-written paragraphs can go a lot way into tricking people into thinking you aren't both full of <auto-censored>  ;)
I'm great, you suck.  nener nener boo boo ;)

Are those banjos I hear?

Seriously, why did you reply to this thread?  I was trying to move in off the 1st page and then you come and reply to it and bump it back to the top...

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #255 on: September 28, 2004, 03:07:25 pm »
What the hell?  You'll disect Hunky_Artist point by excruciating point, but you won't give my post a go?
Ha, at least he responded to some of my dumb automated Eliza responses  :P I guess you are just too clever for him to even dare to respond.

(sound of penny dropping in background). patrickl, you were way too subtle!! i only just got what you were doing!
Heh yeah, I'm such a nerd. I love turing tests 8) I was wondering if people would notice my replies were even dumber than my usual random drivel (I did give a link to Eliza though), but in current company I doubt it's hard to post the dumbest replies of the lot. MUHAHAHAHAHAH  ;D

ps (GGKoul, sorry for replying yet again, but I think this thread is funny)
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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #256 on: September 28, 2004, 05:15:48 pm »
STOP IT WOULDJA?!?  GG's working on something here.

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #257 on: September 28, 2004, 09:33:18 pm »
ok seeing as how this thread has gone wild in everyway, its over.  :-X

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Re:The Clinton gun ban has expired!
« Reply #258 on: September 28, 2004, 09:51:13 pm »
Since I haven't had a say, here is mine:

Does banning or making something illegal stop people from obtaining it?

No.  You just make the item more profitable for people to sell/smuggle.  A prime example would be "prohibition".  There were more places to drink alcohol during prohibition than before or after because of the profitability.
Take a look at the "war on drugs".  The higher they make the penalties, the more people make/sell/smuggle them.  It is the law of supply and demand.  The less supply, the more you can charge because of the demand..  I would rather see many of the drugs now called "illegal" be regulated by the government.  Have "free" treatment centers for those who wish to quit.  The treatment centers could be paid for with taxes on the drugs.  Make it illegal to operate machinery/moving vehicles/etc. while using the drugs.  People who have "accidents" while under the influence of said drugs should be "nailed to the wall" as an example to others.

Put very simply, if you take the profitability out of the illegal item by making it legal and regulating it then people aren't going to be selling/smuggling it because there isn't the high profitability any more. It is the profit that drives people, not whether the item is legal or not.