The Clinton gun ban has expired!

[shmokes]

LMAO, that's just mean.

[Mameotron]

Well, we're not going to get anywhere with the "yes you can, no you can't" type of argument.  It's really a smaller issue in the whole gun ban argument anyway.

yes you can!!

I'd like to buy an argument, please.

[Mameotron]

(Somewhat embarrassed)  I actually checked, and here is the official assault weapons ban FAQ from none other than the ATF website.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/saw-faqs.htm

[hunky_artist]

Oh....  a Europeon.  That explains a lot.
See, here in the US, we believe that people have the right to defend themselves, with deadly force if necessary

oh.... an American. That explains a lot.  

See, over in the US, you seem to have a lot more NEED to defend yourselves with deadly force.... and therein lies our argument.

Far too many of you Europeons have forgotten this right, and have turned into cowering slaves to fear.

Cowering slaves? How DARE you.

I'm really trying hard to ignore the fact that you actually said that

[danny_galaga]

Well, we're not going to get anywhere with the "yes you can, no you can't" type of argument.  It's really a smaller issue in the whole gun ban argument anyway.

yes you can!!

I'd like to buy an argument, please.

[TA Pilot]

See, over in the US, you seem to have a lot more NEED to defend yourselves with deadly force.... and therein lies our argument.

Everyone has the need.  Some people admit it.
If you dont want to be able to kill someone thats attacking you, thats fine.  I do - and its my right to do so.


Cowering slaves? How DARE you.  I'm really trying hard to ignore the fact that you actually said that

And if you were to fail in your effort?
Tell me:  if someone -were- to break into your home and demand any number of things from youand your family - what do you do?

[TA Pilot]

In the UK, Netherlands or Australia? Where guns aren

[TA Pilot]

As I said:
You arent basing your answer on personal experience.

But thats OK.  Once you're placed in a situation where you need deadly force to protect yourself and/or your loved ones, you'll understand.  If you live - which is a decision you wont get to make.

Your entire argument is based on the idea that 'criminals dont need guns because their victims dont have them'.  This is completely inane.  Criminals dont play fair - they take every advantage they can get.   You dont have a gun?  Great!  That makes their gun that much more effective in getting what they want from you.

The unarmed are simply sheep waiting to be slaughtered.  if thats what you want to be - be my guest.  Dont complain when someone takes something you cant afford to lose.

[TA Pilot]

(to everyone else) does this guy not get that im saying that the country i live in (australia) is somewhat less violent than the country HE lives in (the USA)?

Sure I do.
But what you dont seem to understand that just because you dont feel threatened doesnt mean you arent, and that your perceived lack of threat doesnt in any way create a valid argument against anyone else wanting to own a gun.

[TA Pilot]

do i threaten you? do you want to shoot me?
[/b}

No.  Why?

[shmokes]

Interestingly enough, a large % (~1/3) of murderers and a large % (~1/3) of those murdered come from the same demographic:  Black males ages 18-25.  Go figger.

Interestingly enough, a large % of redneck ---uvulas--- come from the same demographic:  White gun nuts.  Go figger.

[TA Pilot]

Interestingly enough, a large % of redneck ---uvulas--- come from the same demographic:  White gun nuts.  Go figger.


Whats your point?
It not my fault the FBI compiles these statistics.  
If you dont like it, blame them.

[shmokes]

It's not the statistic that I find obnoxious, it's what you think it implies.

[TA Pilot]

It's not the statistic that I find obnoxious, it's what you think it implies.

And that would be....?

[fredster]

Actually, Austrailia does lead the world in Burglaries per capita.

(I wish I knew how to hyperlink properly) :http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_bur_cap

The US is way down the list.  The US leads the world in total number of burglaries, but it's because of the population.

Austrailia is also in the top 3 for rapes per capita.  It's below the US in assaults by a little.  7.7 per 1000 in the US and 7.15 in Austrailia.

It's right there with Russia for Manslaughters.  I can't find the stat on the US.

The UK leads the US on Total Crime.

Austrailia is way down on the list of total Crime.

[TA Pilot]

Actually, Austrailia does lead the world in Burglaries per capita.

Its easy to break into a home when you know its unlikely that there will be an owner waiting for you w/ a shotgun.

Conversely, if you know there's a good chance you'll be greeted by such a person, you wont break in.



It's right there with Russia for Manslaughters.  I can't find the stat on the US.

Manslaughteres are counted by the FBI under "murder"

[shmokes]

It's not the statistic that I find obnoxious, it's what you think it implies.

And that would be....?

Hmm....well, I just don't know?  What ever could you have meant by that TA?  Maybe it was just some random thing to say that had no relavence -- just an unrelated little factoid.  

You know...there's a reason that even Dartful Dodger, who is on yours side, doesn't want you on his side.

[TA Pilot]

Hmm....well, I just don't know?

If you don't know, why'd you bring it up?
Seems to me I was responing to someone mentioning a % of people being involved in criminal activity.   I did the same.



You know...there's a reason that even Dartful Dodger, who is on yours side, doesn't want you on his side.

Oh, wow.  Boy I tell you what - THAT sure hurts.

No offense to Dartful, but I really dont need anyone on my "side"; if someone else feels the same, then thats OK by me.

Want to discuss gun control?  Fine.  Bring it on.
If you're just going to whine... well, I have better things to do.

[patrickl]

This thread is so much fun. Just like reading the comics in the newspaper.

danny_galaga,

Nice dutch man


TA Pilot,

Are you for real?

[shmokes]

Wow...sarcasm is completely lost on you TA.  I thought you were playing dumb before.  

I'm coming around, though.  I think maybe you're right.  What we really need are fewer blacks.  If we didn't have so damn many blacks we wouldn't have so many murders.

I guess they're taking care of that, though, eh?

[Dartful Dodger]

Wow...sarcasm is completely lost on you TA.  I thought you were playing dumb before.  

I'm coming around, though.  I think maybe you're right.  What we really need are fewer blacks.  If we didn't have so damn many blacks we wouldn't have so many murders.

I guess they're taking care of that, though, eh?

TA is a fake.  Who joins an arcade controls board just to spout nonsense in everything else threads about guns?

This just proves what nonsense gun control is.  You can't make a good argument for it, so you create a user to make bogus claims against it.

"What? no I'm real, really."

Tell it to CBS.  Dan Rathers might listen to you.

[TA Pilot]

I'm coming around, though.  I think maybe you're right.  What we really need are fewer blacks.  If we didn't have so damn many blacks we wouldn't have so many murders.

Wow.  THATS what you got from my post?

Its very interesting to see what people think when they react to the simple posting of facts.  You -assume- that I mean something by it, and you assumption gets you all hot and bothered.  

You're just a little too sensitive.   Relax.  Live longer.


I guess they're taking care of that, though, eh?

Maybe Darwin was right?



TA is a fake

A fake what?


 Who joins an arcade controls board just to spout nonsense in everything else threads about guns?

I was invited here by someone.  Seems to me this is an open forum, right?  And as long as I dont starl slinging obscenities, I can pretty mush reply to whatever I want in whatever manner I see fit - right?

Gun control is probably my favorite topic of discussion, right up there with the 2000 election, the war in Iraq and wether or not Kirk and the Enterprise could take the entire Empire, including Vader (and the answer is: without breaking a sweat).

And you're right:  you cant make a good argument for gun control, whereas good arguments -against- it are plentiful.  You'll notice that, invariably, the people that resort to nonsensical attacks on othe rpeople are those that -support- gun control.

[DrewKaree]

Well, we're not going to get anywhere with the "yes you can, no you can't" type of argument.  It's really a smaller issue in the whole gun ban argument anyway.

yes you can!!

I'd like to buy an argument, please.

you're so friggen funny sometimes, it hurts  

sigh....

do i threaten you? do you want to shoot me?

Do I make you hoaney baby?  Do I?!  

Who joins an arcade controls board just to spout nonsense in everything else threads about guns?

I was invited here by someone.  Seems to me this is an open forum, right?  And as long as I dont starl slinging obscenities, I can pretty mush reply to whatever I want in whatever manner I see fit - right?

no, not quite.  The obscenities should be a given, and they have a filter on the board, AFAIK.  You are also told to leave hate at the door.  And it is up to the mods what "bringing  hate inside the door" means.  

SOME of your replies border on what I would consider wrong, but I also see how this topic brings out spirited debate, sometimes making the holding or tempering of ones tongue (or "tounge", if you're Danny) difficult.  That's why there's a "preview" button, and a "modify" option.

Carry on.  

[SirPoonga]

Always funny to see how much americans love their guns (or at least some of them) What's even more funny is seeing how they (the same people?) go berzerk if they see a nipple on television or if someone smokes a joint.

I would disagree. I wouldn;t mind any of that and I like guns.  I'd think it's the people that complain about guns that also complain the US isn't "politically correct".  I think the Us is too much "politically correct".  I mean, when the people in a county in california complains that the terms master and slave on hard drives is indecent (even though the terms are used correctly) you know something is wrong!

The US has affirmative action which is suppose to help against racism when in itself the law is racist.

[DrewKaree]

The US has affirmative action which is suppose to help against racism when in itself the law is racist.

*sound of a can being opened*

worms, anyone?

[patrickl]

And you're right:  you cant make a good argument for gun control, whereas good arguments -against- it are plentiful.  You'll notice that, invariably, the people that resort to nonsensical attacks on othe rpeople are those that -support- gun control.

That's just not true. There is no good argument why every idiot should own their own gun. Self defense is the stupidest of them all since you will not have your gun handy when you need it anyway. If you just came to protest against gun control then you better go away. You really only hurt the case you are fighting for.

For what it's worth, people in the Netherlands CAN own their own gun. In fact I shot with an M16, an AK47 and a handgun (forgot the brand) it's just harder to get them (1 year wait and you are screened) and there are strict rules on storage. This prevents people who are temporarily insane from shooting up a postal office or fast food restaurant. Also hardly any kids playing with their dads gun and accidentily shooting themselfs or their friends.

Accidents and temporary insanity are the areas where gun control matters. Guns don't kill people, people don't kill people, but idiots (insane people or kids who like to play with guns) with guns kill people.

Of course criminals can still get their guns and they do. Having your own gun is not gonna stop a bullet from their guns though. The number of people shot with firearms by criminals is only a measure of how criminal that society is. These figures are irrelevant to gun control since these people will get their gun no matter what. On the other hand if noone owns a gun, criminals are less likely to need a gun and thus they are less likely to get one. Again you save on people shot "by accident" since a burglar realy doesn't go out to kill people.

I haven't seen a single good comment for removing gun control. Probably the only one would be "I want to own and shoot a gun". That's fine, but why not have rules on that?

[Mameotron]

That's just not true. There is no good argument why every idiot should own their own gun.

Nobody says every idiot should own their own gun.  Our government was founded on freedoms, and the CHOICE to own a gun is guaranteed by anyone who lives here.
Our government was also made to be changed and updated as necessary, and so far the majority of us do not feel that the CHOICE to own a gun should be given up.

Self defense is the stupidest of them all since you will not have your gun handy when you need it anyway.

Who knows when you will need it?  You'd better be prepared and have it at the ready at all times.  I have lived through being robbed at gunpoint, and I've made the decision that I will not let that happen again.  I have a concealed carry permit and my gun goes where I go.
I think that if you check some statistics you will see that a majority of concealed carry permit holders have a reason for carrying-  they have been robbed, shot, raped, in the past... no amount of legislation or gun control will ever keep the criminals from acting.

For what it's worth, people in the Netherlands CAN own their own gun. In fact I shot with an M16, an AK47 and a handgun (forgot the brand) it's just harder to get them (1 year wait and you are screened) and there are strict rules on storage. This prevents people who are temporarily insane from shooting up a postal office or fast food restaurant. Also hardly any kids playing with their dads gun and accidentily shooting themselfs or their friends.

Any legislation that imposes waiting periods and screenings in an attempt to circumvent crimes of passion is totally useless.  I can go downtown and buy a black market gun quickly and easily.

Accidents and temporary insanity are the areas where gun control matters. Guns don't kill people, people don't kill people, but idiots (insane people or kids who like to play with guns) with guns kill people.

We DO have effective legislation in place for these situations, and they do not involve gun control.  Last year in my town, a lady was on her front porch talking to her neighbors when her 10 year old son shot and killed his cousin with a loaded shotgun they found in the house.  The woman who was watching them (and was deemed responsible for their safety) is now in prison.  She admitted to knowing the gun was there, and that it was loaded.
Idiots also go to prison for killing people.  If you try to say that boy would be alive today if the gun wasn't there, then where do you stop?  There are knives in the kitchen, there are electrical outlets all over the house, there are cars in the street...  At some point you have to say that responsible parenting will overcome these obstacles.

Of course criminals can still get their guns and they do. Having your own gun is not gonna stop a bullet from their guns though. The number of people shot with firearms by criminals is only a measure of how criminal that society is. These figures are irrelevant to gun control since these people will get their gun no matter what. On the other hand if noone owns a gun, criminals are less likely to need a gun and thus they are less likely to get one. Again you save on people shot "by accident" since a burglar realy doesn't go out to kill people.

If criminals know you do not have a gun they are more apt to be bolder in what they will do to you, and more likely to kill you to make sure there are no witnesses.

Your view of burglars is amazingly wrong.  A few months ago my Aunt and Uncle were robbed in their home in the middle of the night.  They do not own any guns, but the robbers did have guns.  After they took what they wanted, they tied my Uncle to a chair and made him watch helplessly as they beat my Aunt to a bloody pulp with a fireplace iron.  No, criminals have no such morals as you make them out to have.

I haven't seen a single good comment for removing gun control. Probably the only one would be "I want to own and shoot a gun". That's fine, but why not have rules on that?

You never will.  Maybe if you take off your blinders and try to look at the other side of the argument you just might.

[TA Pilot]

That's just not true. There is no good argument why every idiot should own their own gun.

No one makes this argument.  No one argues that criminals, children, the mentally infirm or non-citizens have the right to arms.

Further, as a standard discalimer, any reference to gun control laws being an infringement of the right to arms does not apply to the above people, as they have no such right.



Self defense is the stupidest of them all since you will not have your gun handy when you need it anyway.

Tell me:
If the right to arms isnt about self-defense - then what?



If you just came to protest against gun control then you better go away. You really only hurt the case you are fighting for.

Sounds like you're nervous.  Thats OK.



Accidents and temporary insanity are the areas where gun control matters.

And in neither case does gun control affect these things.
Gun control only limits people that obey the law.  It doesnt stop people that want a gun and are willing to do what they have to do from getting one.  It also doesnt stop accidents, as accidents are only avoided by people knowing how to proprely handle a firearm.


Guns don't kill people, people don't kill people, but idiots (insane people or kids who like to play with guns) with guns kill people.

In the US, most gun deaths are fom suicide.  Which category does that fall under, and what sort of law would stop it?



Of course criminals can still get their guns and they do. Having your own gun is not gonna stop a bullet from their guns though.

Curious.   You're arguing that the police should not have guns - after all, a policeman's gun cant stop a bullet.  You DO know of course that having a gun at least gives you a chance against a criminal that does --  and a VERY good chance against a criminal that doesnt.  Right?

Given that ~75% of violent crime in the US is NOT committed with a gun, what support is there for the argument that a gun wont help a victim against a criminal?


 
The number of people shot with firearms by criminals is only a measure of how criminal that society is. These figures are irrelevant to gun control since these people will get their gun no matter what.

This is silly.  Gun control is suppoedly about crime control - and you admit that criminals arent affected by gun control.

You, yourself, are arguing that gun control doesnt work.
Why have it?



On the other hand if noone owns a gun, criminals are less likely to need a gun and thus they are less likely to get one. Again you save on people shot "by accident" since a burglar realy doesn't go out to kill people.

I really really really wory about someone who argues that "disarming the victim will disarm the criminal".  Its... insane beyond description.

Criminals prey on the weak.  Disarming people make them weaker - and thus, more likely to be preyed upon.



I haven't seen a single good comment for removing gun control

How about
-Gun control doesnt keep guns from the hands of criminals
-Gun control infringes the right of the people

It doesnt do what its supposed to do and it infringes my rights.  There isnt a single rational reason to keep it.

[Witchboard]

I know I really shouldn

[TA Pilot]

Amen, brother.

[patrickl]

I guess you guys complete missed my post since I only read replies that didn't make any sense.

Self defense is the stupidest of them all since you will not have your gun handy when you need it anyway.

Tell me:
If the right to arms isnt about self-defense - then what?

That's just my point. There is no valid reason for it other then "I want to own one (and I will start crying if I can't)".

Our government was founded on freedoms, and the CHOICE to own a gun is guaranteed by anyone who lives here.

He, he, you do realise that in the US you probably have the least freedom of any democratic country don't you? Anyway, as I said I also have the right to own a gun, I'm just glad that (at least over here) not every idiot has that right. I also wonder why you don't have the right to driver your car as fast as you like? Why can't you have sex in public places? Why can't you drink alcohol when you are 16 years old? And more on the subject why can't you ask your docter to end your live humanely instead of needlesly suffering from a terminal disease for weeks/months.

The biggest hoot:

Maybe if you take off your blinders and try to look at the other side of the argument you just might.

You have got to be kidding me. I do look at the other side and I understand where you are coming from. I make up dumb reasons why I "need" to do something that I'm not allowed. All you do is make up reasons to validate your wish to own a gun. You really have no compelling argument why you should own a gun. The only reasons I see coming over and over is that is is your right and that you dream that one day you will foil a robber (of course you won't and you know it if you allow some thinking on the subject). Maybe you guys should think past "I have a right" and think of a real reason ... ah, but that's just it ... there is none.

Face it, the only reason you want that gun is because you ... well ... want it. Be happy that you got one and that your government doesn't have stricter laws on them. There is nothing wrong with wanting something, but don't give me some lame excuse why it is impossible for you not to own a gun.

I would like to drive 250km/h on the open roads. It is my right! Why the hell can't I do that? Damn that government and their blinders! See the other side of the argument! I will be on location twice as fast so come on let me drive that fast. Hell even a few years ago we were allowed to drive that fast so why not now? Does that sounds like a dumb argument? Hmmm .... I wonder why.

[fredster]

PatrickL,

Don't you live in the Netherlands?

How do you know how free we are in the US?  TV?  

I don't think that anyone who hasn't spent years in a country can judge all aspects of it's culture.  Each country's culture is based on it's history and it's values.

This to the people of the US is a right, not a privilige.  It's a way of life.  

Start taking this and that for the good of the many.  It starts as a trickle and ends in a flood.  We start chipping away at rights and before you know it, you don't have any rights.  

It's a broader issue than if we "need" them or not.  Next it could be something else.

In the US we tried great social experiments like Prohabition.  It didn't work either.  It caused more problems that it solved.  

If the other countries like their laws regarding guns, fine and dandy.  That's great.

But why go and flamebait the US over gun control?

[TA Pilot]

That's just my point. There is no valid reason for it other then "I want to own one (and I will start crying if I can't)"

Ok. let me put this differently:
What are the legitimate uses for a firearm?
Why can an "assault weapon" not effectively be used in in any of the things you listed?



He, he, you do realise that in the US you probably have the least freedom of any democratic country don't you?

Specifically - in what terms?


Anyway, as I said I also have the right to own a gun, I'm just glad that (at least over here) not every idiot has that right.

Good news:  same here.   Not everyone has the right to arms in the US.



You really have no compelling argument why you should own a gun. The only reasons I see coming over and over is that is is your right

Hmm.  In the US, we dont havwe to justify the exercise of our rights.  Do you have to do that where you live?   You consider yourself free?



Maybe you guys should think past "I have a right" and think of a real reason ... ah, but that's just it ... there is none.

Like I said:
List the legitimate reasons to have a gun
Tell me why an "assault weapon" cannot be effectively used for that purpose.



I would like to drive 250km/h on the open roads. It is my right!

You have no right to drive on the roads, perriod - mush less at any particular speed.

[Dartful Dodger]

I guess you guys complete missed my post since I only read replies that didn't make any sense.

Self defense is the stupidest of them all since you will not have your gun handy when you need it anyway.

Tell me:
If the right to arms isnt about self-defense - then what?

That's just my point. There is no valid reason for it other then "I want to own one (and I will start crying if I can't)".

The police can't stop all the crimes from being committed, but we still need them.

A gun doesn't have to be in your hand to defend you.  It is impossible to know how many crimes were not committed because the criminal was afraid of getting shot.

I'm bored of guns war and government.
Somebody have a fresh idea to debate.

[hunky_artist]

this is going nowhere.

Let's just agree that in The States guns are needed to feel safe against a more violent criminal aspect which more often than not is armed... and in Europe and elsewhere guns are not needed as more often than not criminals don't have guns for the reasons listed. For your average crime they don't need them.

we'll be here forever otherwise going round in circles.

Americans are happy wanting guns to feel safe and I'm happy not wanting guns to feel safe.

we're all different  

[GGKoul]

we'll be here forever otherwise going round in circles.

Americans are happy wanting guns to feel safe and I'm happy not wanting guns to feel safe.

we're all different  

Amen, brother.

[fredster]

Who was the best Darrin?  Dick York or Dick Sargent?

I vote Dick York.  He was the first, and in my mind had the best facial expressions.

[DrewKaree]

Amen, brother.

Now you've gone and brought religion into it....are you one of those zealots I keep reading about?

[Mameotron]

Man: An argument is a connected series of statement intended to establish a proposition.
Other Man: No it isn't!
Man: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.
Other Man: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position!
Man: Yes but it isn't just saying "no it isn't".
Other Man: Yes it is!
Man: No it isn't!
Other Man: Yes it is!
Man: No it isn't!
Other Man: Yes it is!
Man: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
Other Man: It is NOT!
Man: It is!
Other Man: Not at all!
Man: It is!

[TA Pilot]

I