The Clinton gun ban has expired!

[TA Pilot]

hello again!! so you really are real!! even if 'not for real'

Lets see.
I question the absurdity of your statements
You respond that I'm not for real

Strong response, yours.

[Witchboard]

"This seems to prove the point I was making earlier. That Americans seem needlessly violent."

News:
Killing someone thats trying to to do you what they did to them isnt "needless violence".

He was talking about the intruder that beat their helpless victim.  That was needless.  I do not agree that only Americans would do such a thing.

Danny, I'm going to borrow something you posted from the "Guilty until proven innocent" thread.

I hate the term, but 'thin edge of the wedge' is sounding very appropriate. If this time it's an ememy soldier, maybe next time it's someone accused of murder. case is a bit shaky, so we'll use guantanamo bay. then maybe someone accused of drug smuggling. well then, it's not such a big step to use the same system to try someone accused of robbery. just a short stroll from reckless driving. gee, we used the guantanamo bay system for reckless driving, i've got this shoplifter i really need put away. from there, well who's to argue if i get someone sent off because i just don't like him, i'm in authority and i know what's best for everyone...

This is similar to what the guys are describing in this thread.  They are just concerned that one thing will lead to another.  I don't understand how you can use it as an argument for one thing but disregard it for another.

I think another thing that is being overlooked is that some people do consider collecting firearms a hobby.  It would be similar to us here.  There's been a joystick that you can't get for 10 years and now it's available again.  There's people that don't think you need the joystick because they don't like the throw.  I know there aren't many joystick related deaths, but to collectors having access to something you didn't before would be really nice.  I'm sure there are people out there that don't understand the hobby of collecting firearms.  I don't understand why people collect spoons with states on them, but they do.

[TA Pilot]

He was talking about the intruder that beat their helpless victim.  That was needless.  I do not agree that only Americans would do such a thing.

Might be.   But the point he was making was that he saw no less violent outcome - that is, had there been a gun in the house with which the victims couuld have used to defend themselves - quite possibly resulting in the deaths of the criminals - and this means that the outcome, to him, would not be "better".

Ask the victims: would it have been a batter outcome had you been able to stop the criminals before they beat the crap out of you?



This is similar to what the guys are describing in this thread.  They are just concerned that one thing will lead to another.  I don't understand how you can use it as an argument for one thing but disregard it for another.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean.



I think another thing that is being overlooked is that some people do consider collecting firearms a hobby.

Could be, but thats not the argument.



It would be similar to us here.  There's been a joystick that you can't get for 10 years and now it's available again.

You're proceeding from a false premise.
"Assault weapons" have been legally availiable since the first day of the "ban".

This rifle was banned:


This one was not:



See the dramatic difference in the two?

Fact is, all of the "assault weapons" that were "banned" were legally for sale on the first day of the "ban", as the manufacturers removed whatever was necessary to comply with the law.

For whatever reason, people ignore this.
Or, they dont know it, which means they're arguing from ignorance.

With all due respect, the argument concerning the AWB doesnt have much to do with collecting.  The ban had no effect whatsoever on the availability of the guns; to argue that the expiration of the ban will mean more gun deaths, etc, is born or ignorance.

[TA Pilot]

  i just question your reasoning. even some who might side with you have questioned your reasoning!

Which reasoning is that?

[TA Pilot]

true, might be a stretch to call it 'reasoning' as such...


Ah - another fine example of your willingness to back up your posts.

[Witchboard]

This is similar to what the guys are describing in this thread.  They are just concerned that one thing will lead to another.  I don't understand how you can use it as an argument for one thing but disregard it for another.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean.

That's because it was a question directed at Danny.

I think another thing that is being overlooked is that some people do consider collecting firearms a hobby.

Could be, but thats not the argument.

I thought the argument was about rights.  I guess I've misinterpreted the thread.

It would be similar to us here.  There's been a joystick that you can't get for 10 years and now it's available again.

You're proceeding from a false premise.
"Assault weapons" have been legally availiable since the first day of the "ban".
<snip>
See the dramatic difference in the two?

No, I don't see a difference.  I thought it was more about how the weapon functioned rather than how it looked.

Fact is, all of the "assault weapons" that were "banned" were legally for sale on the first day of the "ban", as the manufacturers removed whatever was necessary to comply with the law.

For whatever reason, people ignore this.
Or, they dont know it, which means they're arguing from ignorance.

I will admit I am ignorant to much of what's going on with "assault weapons" seeing as how I will probably never own or have a use for one.  That doesn't mean that I don't think somebody else should not be able to legally posses something due to my apathy.

With all due respect, the argument concerning the AWB doesnt have much to do with collecting.  The ban had no effect whatsoever on the availability of the guns; to argue that the expiration of the ban will mean more gun deaths, etc, is born or ignorance.

You don't have to convince me.  I agree with most of what you say.  I'm just trying to see it from more perspectives.  I think you're so fired up to prove your point that when you read my post you didn't see that I was supporting your side.  The only thing that was directed at you was the very first quote because I thought you misinterpreted what Danny said.  The rest of this post wasn't actually directed at you.

[GGKoul]

TA Pilot.. In case you forgot, this is a Build Your Own Arcade Controls forum.   Not a Gun Control forum.

While you have every right to join the BYOAC forums and ask questions about building your own arcade system.  But to come on this Arcade Forum and have everyone of your posts be about Gun Control and defending your right to own a gun is crazy.  

I don't see you as a positive addition to the community.  And unless you have a Arcade related question, I'm no longer going to reply nor read any of your posts.

 Ah - another fine example of your willingness to back up your posts.

Also, most of the people on this board aren't gun control experts and aren't able to pull gun stats, court cases and dates out of their ass...  Ask a question about Pac-Man or Tron.  Then someone will be able to challenge any stats your may have.

Until then, I wish you all the best on your crusade.

-GG

[TA Pilot]

No, I don't see a difference.  I thought it was more abut how the weapon functioned rather than how it looked.

Look at the end of the barrel, at the base of the flash suppressor, under the front sight.

The upper rifle has a bayonette lug.  Its illegal under the ban.
The lower rifle does not.  Its legal.
Thats the difference between illegal/legal under the AWB.

Pretty silly, the 'ban' - eh?



I think you're so fired up to prove your point that when you read my post you didn't see that I was supporting your side.  

No, I knew you were supporting my side - thats why I responded with 'all due respect'.

[TA Pilot]

TA Pilot.. In case you forgot, this is a Build Your Own Arcade Controls forum.   Not a Gun Control forum.

Freedom of sppech?
I was invited because of the topic.  
If this is all I want to post on, who are you to say anyting about it?



I don't see you as a positive addition to the community.  And unless you have a Arcade related question, I'm no longer going to reply nor read any of your posts.

Boy, am -I- going to lose sleep
Just consider that if YOU keep posting to these threads and then wont respond to my posts criticizing yours - you're simply hiding.



Also, most of the people on this board aren't gun control experts and aren't able to pull gun stats, court cases and dates out of their ass...  

So, they're position is based on ignorance.  I help them with that by explaining to them the particulars, or getting them to look them up themselves.

I find that when people become informed on the issue,  they generally agree with me.

[tep0583]

No, I don't see a difference.  I thought it was more about how the weapon functioned rather than how it looked.

That's the biggest misconception here.

There is no functional difference at all between the two pictured rifles. All the differences are more or less cosmetic.

There is no functional difference between most pre-ban and post-ban rifles.

The experation of the AWB doesn't allow any added functionality (such as burst or auto fire)

[Dartful Dodger]

TA Pilot.. In case you forgot, this is a Build Your Own Arcade Controls forum.   Not a Gun Control forum.

GGKoul.. TA Pilot is a joke, someone made up that username to fill up this board with nonsense posts.  I am not going to debate this subject either, check the first few posts he's made when he made his premier on an arcade building board.  He came here to make nonsense gun control claims, just to upset antigun people, and to make gun advocates look like ignorant red necks.  

The admins can check the IP addresses he was using and compare them to other members of this board, but now that I've called him on it, he'll use a different computer.  He's already toned down the off the wall ignorance in his posts since I first called him out as a fake.

This will be the last time I will mention this.  I will not waste my time or ArcadeControls web space debating this subject.

[Witchboard]

No, I don't see a difference.  I thought it was more abut how the weapon functioned rather than how it looked.

Look at the end of the barrel, at the base of the flash suppressor, under the front sight.

The upper rifle has a bayonette lug.  Its illegal under the ban.
The lower rifle does not.  Its legal.
Thats the difference between illegal/legal under the AWB.

Pretty silly, the 'ban' - eh?

No, I don't see a difference.  I thought it was more about how the weapon functioned rather than how it looked.

That's the biggest misconception here.

There is no functional difference at all between the two pictured rifles. All the differences are more or less cosmetic.

There is no functional difference between most pre-ban and post-ban rifles.

The experation of the AWB doesn't allow any added functionality (such as burst or auto fire)

Indeed I do have misconceptions due to my ignorance of the Clinton ban.  Though it can still be said that these cosmetic changes can still alter how the weapon functions.  Like the bayonette lug.  If you mount a bayonette to the weapon it does add a function that the previously unbanned version could not have.  Is this a big deal?  Not really.

[TA Pilot]

TA Pilot is a joke, someone made up that username to fill up this board with nonsense posts.

Hey!  Is this a personal insult?
Thats against the rules, isnt it?



He came here to make nonsense gun control claims, just to upset antigun people, and to make gun advocates look like ignorant red necks.  

If my posts are nonsensical, how is it that you cannot effectively counter my arguments.

And if all it takes for you anti-gun people to be "uspet" is for someone to effectively counter your assertions - my, you have thin skins.  

I came here becasue I was invited to participate in a gun control discussion - that is, after all what this thread is about (see: header -The Clinton gun ban has expired).

Now, if you have an example of me violating the message boeard rules, you can post them here -- but as much as you'd like to think so, not agreeing with you doesnt violate those rules.



The admins can check the IP addresses he was using and compare them to other members of this board, but now that I've called him on it, he'll use a different computer.  

Bad news for you:  Same computer.  Same IP address.   I have no fear of anyone knowing where I'm posting from.



He's already toned down the off the wall ignorance in his posts since I first called him out as a fake.

Fake....what?



This will be the last time I will mention this.  I will not waste my time or ArcadeControls web space debating this subject.

Isn't this the 2nd ot 3rd time you've said that?

[GGKoul]

I came here becasue I was invited to participate in a gun control discussion - that is, after all what this thread is about (see: header -The Clinton gun ban has expired).

Just wondering who invited you to join the Gun Control discussion?

[TA Pilot]

Just wondering who invited you to join the Gun Control discussion?

One of the other members posting here.   He agrees with me 100%, and he thought I'd find this amusing.  he was right, of course.

Naturally, I'm not about to divulge his ID.  If you go back and read the posts, maybe you'll figure it out.

[GGKoul]

If he agrees with you 100%, then why are you hiding this person?

[TA Pilot]

If he agrees with you 100%, then why are you hiding this person?

Its a little thing called respect.   He knows who he is; if he wants to come forward and say he invited me, he will.

[GGKoul]

If he agrees with you 100%, then why are you hiding this person?

Its a little thing called respect.   He knows who he is; if he wants to come forward and say he invited me, he will.

I've got 2 or 3 people in mind... but I'm not going to add to this thread anymore...  Good Luck with everything and feel free to contact me should you have any arcade related questions.  

[patrickl]

TA Pilot.. In case you forgot, this is a Build Your Own Arcade Controls forum.   Not a Gun Control forum.

GGKoul.. TA Pilot is a joke, someone made up that username to fill up this board with nonsense posts.  I am not going to debate this subject either, check the first few posts he's made when he made his premier on an arcade building board.  He came here to make nonsense gun control claims, just to upset antigun people, and to make gun advocates look like ignorant red necks.  

So very very true.

Someone who thinks:
- taking a persons life is OK if he/she is stealing your stuff (vigilantism)
- black people killing black people is a fortunate thing (racism)
- there will come a time when he is called upon to "take up arms" (terrorism?)

All in all he is a prime example of someone who should not be allowed to own firearms (due to mental deficiencies and criminal tendencies) proclaiming his "right" to own firearms. He has to be a bad joke.


On the other hand I'm intrigued how real Americans feel on this subject. I actually did spend quite some time in the US and it always amazed me how americans would say terrorists are such a huge threat while almost weekly I would see news items about dozens of people getting shot by maniacs shooting up public places.

I'm also unsure how guns are supposed to improve the outcome of burglaries, robberies or rapes. For the life of me I can't see how guns would help in any normal scenario (apart from people walking around with their guns drawn wearing bullet proof vests and helmets all day) Either someone dies (or gets seriously hurt) or the crime ends as it would have been without the guns. The net result would be dead and wounded people against maybe a few less stolen items. That hardly sounds like a fair trade.

I searched for statistics about how guns would make things better, but all I could find where figures on how they make things worse. For instance, you are apparently about 2.7 times as likely to get shot in your own home if you own a gun than if you don't own one. (I have to admit I didn't understand why that would be so, but still)

I'm all for people owning guns. As I said before, I fired some and I had a hell of a time. They look cool and why shouldn't you be able to own one? The problem I have is when people think it's OK to use guns outside the shooting range and feel the need to keep their firearms at easy reach. That's where innocent people end up getting killed (I saw figures of 800 to 1000 people dying from firearm accidents earlier). I guess you might make a joke of it and call it "natural selection", but then I assume you would think differently if your own kid would have found your gun.

[TA Pilot]

Someone who thinks:
- a persons life is OK if he/she is stealing your stuff (vigilantism)
- black people killing black people is a fortunate thing (racism)
- there will come a time when he is called upon to "take up arms" (terrorism?)

All in all he is a prime example of someone who should not be allowed to own firearms (due to mental deficiencies and criminal tendencies) proclaiming his "right" to own firearms. He has to be a bad joke.


WOW.
You know, if you didnt misrepresent my positions or read into them whatever you feel necessary to read into them, then maybe you'd have something.

- (taking) a persons life is OK if he/she is stealing your stuff (vigilantism)
Self-defense isnt vigilanteism.  You have the right to use deadly force when necessary to protect your rights.  This means it IS OK to take someone elses life, if necesary, to protect yourself.

- black people killing black people is a fortunate thing
Please show me where I placed a moral value on the level of black-on-black crime in the US.

- there will come a time when he is called upon to "take up arms"
This sort of thing has happened several times in several places in the last 250 years.  No reason whatsoever to think it cant happen here, again.



On the other hand I'm intrigued how real Americans feel on this subject.

Since I disagree with you, I'm not a "real American"?
Wow.



I'm also unsure how guns are supposed to improve the outcome of burglaries, robberies or rapes.

This may be a stretch...   but by scaring away the bad guy - and failing that, rendering him physically incapable of committing the crim in question?


For the life of me I can't see how guns would help in any normal scenario

Oh - YOU can't imagine it, and therefore it cant be so.


Either someone dies (or gets seriously hurt) or the crime ends as it would have been without the guns.

Or...the criminal runs away/ is wounded/is killed, and the victim is safe -as is usually the case.


The net result would be dead and wounded people against maybe a few less stolen items. That hardly sounds like a fair trade.

Whats wrong with wounded/dead criminals and uninjured victims?


I searched for statistics about how guns would make things better, but all I could find where figures on how they make things worse.

Try harder.   Guns are used to stop crime between 1.5 and 2 million times each year in the US.

Thats 1.5-2 million fewer victims.



The problem I have is when people think it's OK to use guns outside the shooting range and feel the need to keep their firearms at easy reach.

Tell me:
Of what use is my gun if I can only use it at the range and I cannot get to it?


That's where innocent people end up getting killed (I saw figures of 800 to 1000 people dying from firearm accidents earlier).

Yes.  ~800 asccidental deaths, 300,000,000 guns.
What % is that?  0.00026%
What problem, accidents?



I guess you might make a joke of it and call it "natural selection", but then I assume you would think differently if your own kid would have found your gun.

I've been a responsible parent.   My kids, appropriate to their age, know how to safely deal with a gun.

[tep0583]

Indeed I do have misconceptions due to my ignorance of the Clinton ban.  Though it can still be said that these cosmetic changes can still alter how the weapon functions.  Like the bayonette lug.  If you mount a bayonette to the weapon it does add a function that the previously unbanned version could not have.  Is this a big deal?  Not really.

I guess that's a point although I was actually refering to the operation of the core rifle. The "guts" of the rifle, such as the fire control group. Nothing there changes in the slightest bit. While the lug does add the ability to mount a bayonet. it really doesn't alter anything about how the rifle functions. To say that it makes the rifle significantly more deadly is laughable.

To be fair, you're misconceptions about the ban are nothing, compared to some I've seen.  There's a fairly large segment of the population who actually think that you can now simply run down to your local gun store and pick up a automatic rifle. That just isn't so.

[tep0583]

If he agrees with you 100%, then why are you hiding this person?

Its a little thing called respect.   He knows who he is; if he wants to come forward and say he invited me, he will.

I've got 2 or 3 people in mind... but I'm not going to add to this thread anymore...  Good Luck with everything and feel free to contact me should you have any arcade related questions.  

Well, hey, I don'y really care one whit, so I'll end the speculation right here.

I mentioned this post to him in passing a couple of days ago. We do find issues of political relivance somewhat interesting and I thought he might find the discussion interesting. I never thought people here would stoop to calling him a redneck racist, however, or I'd have just let it drop. I especially would like to see specifiacally where he called for black-on-black violence, amoung other accusations.  If that cannot be produced, I'd like to see an apology.

I AM glad to see that we have a LOT of practicing psycologists here. At least I know I have somewhere to go to get a "free" assessment of my "problems".

And I'm not hiding from anyone, nor was I aware that this was some exclusive club, where you had to score X points in Pac-Man in order to join. Crap, I wasn't invited, guess I was wrong to sign up for a "public" forum. May the gods of the arcade take pity on my heathen soul.

I arcadecontrolls now by invite-only? I'd really like to know because my MAME cabs are generating a lot of interest amoung people I know and I'd hate to refer them here by mistake.

[GGKoul]

And I'm not hiding from anyone, nor was I aware that this was some exclusive club, where you had to score X points in Pac-Man in order to join. Crap, I wasn't invited, guess I was wrong to sign up for a "public" forum. May the gods of the arcade take pity on my heathen soul.

I arcadecontrolls now by invite-only? I'd really like to know because my MAME cabs are generating a lot of interest amoung people I know and I'd hate to refer them here by mistake.

Ok... Scroll to the top of the page.. what does it say...

Any Arcade Controls related question is welcome here.  This is a public forum and anyone can join to discuss BYOAC related items.  Nobody needs to be invited to join the BYOAC Forum... (Hey, wait, didn't you invite TA Pilot to join)

While we all love a good debate once and awhile, sometimes things get out of hand.  Some people are on the fence with some issues and some people are intrenched with their views on a subject.  Nothing said within this forum makes any difference nor will it make someone change their viewpoint on an issue.

This forum was created to promote fun times and to remember days when all that mattered was getting to the next level of Mario Bros or Pac-Man.  And deep debates about world issues can be discussed in greater detail on many other forums out there... and do nothing to add value to the BYOAC forums.

[TA Pilot]

Ok... Scroll to the top of the page.. what does it say...

The Clinton gun ban has expired!



Any Arcade Controls related question is welcome here.  This is a public forum and anyone can join to discuss BYOAC related items.

And so, when DD started the topic, did you whine like you are now?



Nothing said within this forum makes any difference nor will it make someone change their viewpoint on an issue.

Thats pretty sad - especially when you're arguing from a position of ignorance.  That, in and of itself is fine  - its when you refuse to be enlightened or refuse to change your position in light of same is it sad.

If you;re not willing to learn, then you can't be helped.  Wallow in your willful ignorance.  Just dont cry when people pummel your inane ideas.



deep debates about world issues can be discussed in greater detail on many other forums out there... and do nothing to add value to the BYOAC forums.

And so, when DD started the topic, did you whine like you are now?

[tep0583]

And I'm not hiding from anyone, nor was I aware that this was some exclusive club, where you had to score X points in Pac-Man in order to join. Crap, I wasn't invited, guess I was wrong to sign up for a "public" forum. May the gods of the arcade take pity on my heathen soul.

I arcadecontrolls now by invite-only? I'd really like to know because my MAME cabs are generating a lot of interest amoung people I know and I'd hate to refer them here by mistake.

Ok... Scroll to the top of the page.. what does it say...

Any Arcade Controls related question is welcome here.  This is a public forum and anyone can join to discuss BYOAC related items.  Nobody needs to be invited to join the BYOAC Forum... (Hey, wait, didn't you invite TA Pilot to join)

While we all love a good debate once and awhile, sometimes things get out of hand.  Some people are on the fence with some issues and some people are intrenched with their views on a subject.  Nothing said within this forum makes any difference nor will it make someone change their viewpoint on an issue.

This forum was created to promote fun times and to remember days when all that mattered was getting to the next level of Mario Bros or Pac-Man.  And deep debates about world issues can be discussed in greater detail on many other forums out there... and do nothing to add value to the BYOAC forums.

OK, scroll to the forum list.

See the one that say 'Everything Else'?

Want to elaborate on what exactly that means, then?


If this is such a valueless topic (and, one, I might add, that I didn't bring up), why was it posted? Better yet, why do you bother to respond? Why hasn't it been deleated yet?

I mearly passed a link along. If that constuitutes an 'invite' and a serious breech of the rules, feel free to suspend my account. I note that there are a LOT of other topics out there that have not one thing to do with BYOAC or anything remotely related to it. Feel free to 'remind' everybody posting in those topics that they're on the wrong site too.

It appears to me that somebody needs to get busy and get rid of all the non-related posts in the 'Everything Else ARCADE RELATED' forum. You might want to get the name changed, too, while you're at it. We don't want anyone else getting the wrong idea, do we?

All these 'valueless' posts are getting rather outof hand.

[hunky_artist]

I've only just seen the picture at the botto of TA Pilots posts, with the child with the shotgun saying 'teach em while they're young'

I find that simply abhorrent.....  

[GGKoul]

Ok... Scroll to the top of the page.. what does it say...

Hmm... when I scroll to the top of the page it says... Arcade Controls.com

Any Arcade Controls related question is welcome here.  This is a public forum and anyone can join to discuss BYOAC related items.

And so, when DD started the topic, did you whine like you are now?

How am I whining?  I've just stated my position about this thread in general.  Let me guess, if someone is not on the same page as you with an issue... you classify their responses as whining.... That's find by me...

Nothing said within this forum makes any difference nor will it make someone change their viewpoint on an issue.

Thats pretty sad - especially when you're arguing from a position of ignorance.  That, in and of itself is fine  - its when you refuse to be enlightened or refuse to change your position in light of same is it sad.

If you;re not willing to learn, then you can't be helped.  Wallow in your willful ignorance.  Just dont cry when people pummel your inane ideas.

Hm.. I didn't know I was arguing a position of gun control??  Check the 5 pages of responses.. I only posted on comment at the beginning of this threat.

Also, from reading your responses it looks like your not willing to learn.  As, you have one view point and dismiss any responses against it.  And trust me, nothing you say or have said have taught me anything...  

[tep0583]

Yes, its SO much better to keep guns a mystery from kids.

Everyone knows that kids never do something, just because you tell them not to.

Wierdly enough, all of the kids I grew up with that knew what guns were and who were introduced to guns at an early age, had no problems with them. They weren't the ones who accidently shot themselves and/or others. It was always the one who found the gun on the top shelf of the closet and had no idea whatsoever of who to handle such a thing properly, that managed to do the wrong things with them.

I know for a fact that TA's kids know what guns are. I also know for a fact that they cannot get to his, even thought they know where they are. I can tell you for a fact that I knew where my old man's guns were when I was young. I can also tell you that I knew better than to touch them when he wasn't around. Not that I could have probably found that ammo, anyway.

Simply ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away. What do you tell your children about stangers and child molesters? Nothing, hoping that they'll never encounter that situation? Childern that are ignorent to the dangers of the world are lucky, if they manage to grow up without encountering them.

[tep0583]

Hmm... when I scroll to the top of the page it says... Arcade Controls.com

Seems to me that we've covered that, unless you have something more to say about the subject.

There's at least 3/4 of a page of posts totally unrelated to 'Arcade Controlls' in the fist page of this section of the forum alone. Why is this one the only one that offends you, if anything not related to 'Arcade Controls' is not to be here?

I note that at least one of those 'off topic' posts were started by yourself.

[RacerX]

I've only just seen the picture at the botto of TA Pilots posts, with the child with the shotgun saying 'teach em while they're young'

I find that simply abhorrent.....  

There's nothing wrong with that picture, in my opinion.  I grew up around guns.  My father taught me to respect them.  He taught me to always treat a gun (even a toy gun) as if it is loaded and never to point it at anyone.  He taught me that I was never to touch a gun unless he was there to supervise me.  And he taught me how to safely handle and shoot a gun.

I think a child is far more likely to be tempted to mess with one if he/she has never been exposed to guns.  Their curiosity will get the better of them.

But because guns were no big mystery to me, I never played with them.

[TA Pilot]

I've only just seen the picture at the botto of TA Pilots posts, with the child with the shotgun saying 'teach em while they're young'.  I find that simply abhorrent.....  

Yeah.  Dont teach your kids how to safely handle firearms - after all the life they save might be their own.

Don't like that pic?  You'll LOVE these!







Yeah. thats a 7 and 5yr old each holding an "assault weapon".

Well, they WOULD be "assault weapons" if they had bayonette lugs.   Since they dont, they aren't.

[TA Pilot]

Hmm... when I scroll to the top of the page it says... Arcade Controls.com

Yeah?  Whats the title of the thread?

What does '1000 reasons to tot vote for Bush' have to do with arcade controls?


How am I whining?  I've just stated my position about this thread in general.  Let me guess, if someone is not on the same page as you with an issue... you classify their responses as whining.... That's find by me...

When you go on and on about a post not having anything to do with arcade controls - when you yourself have started similar threads - then you're whining.

Don't like the posts here?  Leave.



Also, from reading your responses it looks like your not willing to learn.

Plainly, I am well-educated, both in general and on the subject.  Having said that, I'm always willing to hear cognent arguments against the provate ownership of guns of any type.

In fact, I openly stated I would listen to any reasoned argument in support of the AWB.

But I havent seen any, of either kind.

Got one?  Lets see it.


As, you have one view point and dismiss any responses against it.

Attacking an unsound premise in an effort to demonstrate thst is IS unsound?  
Thats not the 'dismissal' of an argument, thats the destruction of it.   If you can't defend your premise in the face of reasoned pressure against it - it must not be much of a premise.

Should you ever reach in instituion of higher learning, you'll understand how these things work.


And trust me, nothing you say or have said have taught me anything...  

Indeed - you're willfilly ignorant.  Youre clasping your hands over your ears and yelling as loud as you can - "I CAN"T HEAR YOU I CAN'T HEAR YOU I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!"
 

[TA Pilot]

Yes, its SO much better to keep guns a mystery from kids.

Yeah.
If you dont teach your kids how to safely handle guns at a level appropriate to their age, you're an irresponsible parent.  You're denying your child the skills he may need to save his life.

If your kid doesnt know how to effectively deal with a gun, what happens when he goes to a friend's house and there's one laying out, unatteneded?  Or his friend comes out of his parent's room saying "look what I found"?  Thats how accidents happen - and if his friends parents havent done their jopb to teach their kid, then YOUR child is defenseless --  if something happens to him, its as much YOUR fault as the other parents.

Oh, I know - you'll try to weasel out of the question by saying "I'll never let my kid go over to a house that  has guns in it".   Horseshi'ite.   You dont have a CLUE as to what other people have in their houses, and you're just plain -stupid - for trying to avoid the issue like that.  If this is your response - do the responsible thing and give your kids up for adoption.   If you dont have kids - do the responsible thing and sterilize yourself.

Its your kid.  His safety is up to you.   If a .45ACP round accidently blows out the backside of your kid's head because YOU didnt teach him how to safely deal with that gun - its YOUR fault he's dead.

Strong language?   Yep.  High stakes.

[GGKoul]

You stated (copied and pasted) all the reasons why an assault weapon is a nice gun.  And it is a very nice gun. But you didn't say why people would want or need such a nice gun.  There are only a few reasons.

One is collection.  You might think that a gun collector would want one, but I doubt it.  AK47's and M16's are extremely mass-produced items of weaponry, and have almost no collection value.  It would be like someone who collects cigars having a Marlboro Red cigarette in their collection.

Another possible reason is hunting.  An assault rifle is completely unnecessary in hunting.  You completely remove the sport from it.  You take out all the challenge, the skill, and the tactics, which are the real draws to hunting.  It gives the human almost every possible advantage against the animal, which also makes it inhumane.   it's much easier to kill the animal, so more animals would be killed.  You could take out a herd of buffalo with that thing. All you really need to kill a deer or two is a decent rifle.

Competitive shooters could want one, but again, it's unnecessary.  A competition would be just as competitive, if not more so, with lower powered rifles.

Personal defense: if you're in a situation where an ordinary handgun isn't enough to protect you, run away and call the police.  An ordinary citizen don't have to be able to thwart a bank robbery or a terrorist plot. That's the police's duty.  And five men with shotguns aren't going to come into your house, steal your property, and hurt your family.  And if you're one of the rare people that they're going to do that to, hire some trained body guards.

So, overall, there are very few justifyable reasons why a legitimate person would want an assault rifle.

They have no collection value, they're completely unnecessary for hunting, they're unnecessary for competition, and they're unnecessary for personal defense.  The main demographic that would buy this type of weapon would be major, violent criminals.  A criminal with an AK47 is exponentially more dangerous than a criminal with a handgun or another type of gun.  Making these guns legal would cause civilian deaths, and police deaths, and provide only a tiny benefit to the general population.

Guns are tools of murder.  Period.  They have no other function.  

[GGKoul]

Yeah. thats a 7 and 5yr old each holding an "assault weapon".

Well, they WOULD be "assault weapons" if they had bayonette lugs.   Since they dont, they aren't.

Just wondering, do you store your weapon loaded with ammo?

[RacerX]

Another possible reason is hunting.  An assault rifle is completely unnecessary in hunting.  You completely remove the sport from it.  You take out all the challenge, the skill, and the tactics, which are the real draws to hunting.  It gives the human almost every possible advantage against the animal, which also makes it inhumane.   it's much easier to kill the animal, so more animals would be killed.  You could take out a herd of buffalo with that thing. All you really need to kill a deer or two is a decent rifle.
...
Guns are tools of murder.  Period.  They have no other function.  

Actually, there are *much* more accurate rifles out there than a lot of these so called assault rifles.  And you could not take out a herd of buffalo with one.  Let's not go overboard here.  Even to kill a deer you have to hit one in the right place.  You can't just willy-nilly shoot it and kill it.

And guns are not just tools of murder because there is a difference between killing and murdering.  If not, then every person who shoots someone in self defense or in the defense of another person's life would be a murderer.  And that simply is not the case.

I think both of you are getting a bit carried away here.  Making as extreme a statement as you can about a topic (on either side) does not help make your point.

Let's all be friends here, okay?  

[TA Pilot]

But you didn't say why people would want or need such a nice gun.  There are only a few reasons.

Sure I did.
An "assault weapon" is suitable for use in any legal and legitimate way you might use a gun.  Hunting.  target shooting.  Self-defense.  Collecting.  Et al.


You might think that a gun collector would want one, but I doubt it.  AK47's and M16's are extremely mass-produced items of weaponry, and have almost no collection value.

Ah.  A position of ignorance.   Thats one.
News for you , bub-  A genuine M-16 is wort up to $7000.  An M-14 w/ selector?  $6k easy.  A REAL Soviet AK?   Can't touch 'em for under $4k.  These values go up every year.
 


An assault rifle is completely unnecessary in hunting. You completely remove the sport from it.  You take out all the challenge, the skill, and the tactics, which are the real draws to hunting.

Let me ask you something:
Why do you think a .308 round from my M14 is any 'less sporting" than a .308 round from my Remington M-700 bolt action rifle?

Your argument here is predicated on the idea that you're going to fire a burst from the rifle when hunting.   This is your second position of ignorance.



All you really need to kill a deer or two is a decent rifle.

And my M14 is just that rifle.  One shot, one kill.



Competitive shooters could want one, but again, it's unnecessary.  A competition would be just as competitive, if not more so, with lower powered rifles.

You dont know much about competive rifle shooting.  Let me help you with your third postion based in ignorance.

There's two disciplines of rifle comnpetition: smallbore and highpower.  

Smallbore uses 22LR ammo at ranges to 100yds.  Highpower comes in two flavors - XTC (Across the course, 200 to 600yds)) and Long Range (600 to 1000yds).   Even a prissy smallbore shooter will admit - you cant shoot smallbore XTC, much less LR.

Within the two highpower groups, there's two classes of rifle - match rifle and Service rifle.

Service rifle means the civilian equivelant to any USGI service rifle - the M1903, M1 Garand, M14 and M16.

The latter 2 are "assault weapons".  Most match rifles would also qualify as such, though they sometimes look very unlike service rifles.

Every year, literally thousands of people, all armed with "assault weapons" come together at Camp Perry Ohio for the National Rifle and Pistol matches.  I have pics, if you want some.

So, "assault weapons" hace a clear and distinct role in competition, and are some are -highly- sought after for this purpose.



Personal defense: if you're in a situation where an ordinary handgun isn't enough to protect you, run away and call the police.

Thats great - if you can.


An ordinary citizen don't have to be able to thwart a bank robbery or a terrorist plot. That's the police's duty.  And five men with shotguns aren't going to come into your house, steal your property, and hurt your family.  And if you're one of the rare people that they're going to do that to, hire some trained body guards.

And this means my AR-15 isnt suitable for use in a self-defense situation, because...?


So, overall, there are very few justifyable reasons why a legitimate person would want an assault rifle. They have no collection value, they're completely unnecessary for hunting, they're unnecessary for competition, and they're unnecessary for personal defense.  

Three of your arguments are based in ignorance.   The fourth doesnt do anything to show that an "assault wapon" isn't useful.   You're 0 for 4.



The main demographic that would buy this type of weapon would be major, violent criminals.

Then explain why so few are used for crime, and so many others are used for legitimate purposes.

There were 480 murders committed w/ rifles in 2002.   If they were all "assault weapons", that 480 represents 1/5th the number of competitors in just ONE highpower match at the nationals.



A criminal with an AK47 is exponentially more dangerous than a criminal with a handgun or another type of gun.

Wait - werent you saying that I dont need an AW for defense?  What if the bad guy has an AK - that makes him exponetially more dangerous, right?



Making these guns legal would cause civilian deaths, and police deaths, and provide only a tiny benefit to the general population.

The guns have been legal, for a long time.   Remember the two pictures of the rifles I posted?   One was banned and one wasnt?   If you're right, and making them legal will 'cause civial deaths' - where are they?  The guns have aways been legal - sop there should be deaths - right?



Guns are tools of murder.  Period.  They have no other function.  

Plainly, given this post, this is your 4th position of ignorance.


Here comes the REAL question:
Now that you know better - will you change your mind, or will you continue to wallow in your ignorance?

[TA Pilot]

Just wondering, do you store your weapon loaded with ammo?

What kind of stupid question is that?

[DrewKaree]

soliloquising

made it to the "S" section, have we  




"see? it says choo-choo-choose....and it's a train"  

[patrickl]

He, he, amazing. Now the two caricature-like redneck types are at it together. They are