Mistakes You Made

[yotsuya]

I know we had fun in Neph's New Arcade Console thread (and it *was* all meant in good fun), but honestly, a lot of the advice and feedback that we give, harsh or not, comes from experience. WE'VE made those mistakes. We've learned the hard way. We've wasted the money, we've ruined the materials, we've gotten the negative feedback from guests. No one's being mean or harshing the vibe, it's really truly constructive feedback.

So, with that in mind, what mistakes have you make in your cab building?

I'll start.

1. On my first cab, I did the "external mounted speaker grilles" thing. Some people don't see this as a mistake, but I think aesthetically, it breaks the illusion of it being an arcade cab, especially if they're more modern plastic or open-air grilles (like those Sony Xplod grilles). Every build I've done since then hides the speakers behind drilled holes or slots for the speaker as originally designed, or they use authentic grilles (think Midway cabs).

2. Again, on my first cab, I made a frankenpanel of sorts. I had a two player-six button setup, U-Trak, AND a Turbo-Twist spinner on a 24" by 8" panel. Sure, it all fit, but I had to rest my hand on TOP of the P2 joy to use the spinner. Also, the trackball was 2 inches from the glass bezel. When I redid the panel, I got rid of the trackball and the spinner and have been totally chuffed with the results.

3. My plan for the first cab was to play everything - MAME, ATARI, NES, SNES, SMS, all the consoles I loved playing. I got it all set up, then started playing the NES and SNES games I used to love.... and I hated it. I mean HATED IT. It doesn't feel natural, mapping the shoulder and trigger buttons to one of the other buttons was a joke, and really, those games weren't made to be played standing up for a long period of time. I ditched those games a few months later when I switched my cab over to Hyperspin and haven't regretted it for a single second ever since.

4. Finally, on this first cab, I thought swappable panels was going to be the way to go. So I rigged up a system where I used Cat5 and patch panels to swap things out quicker. But I soon learned that I didn't like crimping .187 Quick Disconnects on those super tiny thin wires. Also, it's not as neat as you would think it would be. Finally, I realized I was going to have to store these 4 or 5 panels I had planned SOMEWHERE.... Finally, I would swap a panel, plug in the USB retro controller, get ready to play... only to find out that the controller wasn't recognized, or that I had to remap the controls.  Ugh.

The best thing I ever did after building my first cab was revising it. 

[pbj]

The one that's really been bothering me lately is I did my TMNT control panel so that the edge of the panel digs into my palms when I play it.  Because I've got big hands and that's what I'm used to feeling.  When I had the opportunity to make it comfortable to play.  Shifting everything up two inches would have really changed the feel.

Oh well.  At least it maximizes distance between players in its current configuration.

[Nephasth]

Married a ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?---.

[yotsuya]

Married a ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?---.

Yeah, I know that one, but we were talking about arcade stuff, Griff-richer!

[harveybirdman]

I spent three weeks downloading PSX ISOs for my MAME setup.  I haven't played any in three years....

Nevermind that you cannot play Tenchu on arcade controls, it is stupid.

I made a six button panel for my MAME setup, buttons five and six are almost NEVER used.  Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat, just aren't that fun because I suck hard at them.  There is nothing fun about reaching over a  worthless row of buttons to play the games I do play.

My gameslist has 1300 games.  Guests are overwhelmed by choices and have a hard time settling on a game.

Bought expensive stuff for my cab that I didn't end up using, damaged by cab by trying to move it myself without a dolly.

[pbj]

I made a six button panel for my MAME setup, buttons five and six are almost NEVER used.  Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat, just aren't that fun because I suck hard at them.  There is nothing fun about reaching over a  worthless row of buttons to play the games I do play.

Takes 10 seconds to remap controls the first time you open a game so that you don't have dead buttons on your control panel.

[harveybirdman]

meh... never been worth it to me.

[Malenko]

I spent three weeks downloading PSX ISOs for my MAME setup.

Some console versions are enhanced over their arcade counterparts. Like Street Fighter Alpha 3 on PSX, world tour mode and all that jazz.




Ok so mistakes Ive made:
Had control panel at a terrible angle. Controls were at like 30* (as in fingers almost an inch higher than palms) unpossible to play for more than 10 minutes at a time.
Used cheap knock off parts , spend the money on the right sticks and buttons, its WORTH IT
Marble contact shelf paper, `nuff said
I once wrapped all my wiring in electrical tape.

[Ginsu Victim]

Marble contact shelf paper, `nuff said

I just laughed and everyone in the office looked at me.

[Slippyblade]

Oh man, I know I'm low on the experience totem, but I've got a couple.

Forgot the depth of buttons when laying out my CP.  Had player start buttons on the front of the CP...  that collided with the sticks. Had to drill a new panel with buttons moved like a 1/4".

Even if a screw isn't long enough to penetrate the panel, it will still extrude a dimple on the other side...  sand that down or it looks like ass when you paint. 

3/4" MDF is NOT actually 3/4"...  Therefore 3/4" T-mold has a slight overhang...

Pay attention to wire routing.  I've got speaker wires running right next to power supply wires.  So I have a constant low hum in the sound.

[Vigo]

I'll continue not publishing my mistakes and you should all just assume they were never made. 


To be honest, a bunch of the above I was guilty of. Maybe most of it. 

Not getting leveling legs. Either my woodwork or the floor of my 100 year old house was always slightly crooked. Once I used leveling legs, all became better.

Using that particle board stuff. Not the wood chip stuff, but that stuff that us used underneath laminate countertop.

Over-using a jigsaw. Hey, I was a broke college kid during my early stuff.

Angling my joysticks. All of them. P1, P2, P3 and P4. I got rid of that design very quickly. I am glad i did it as test panel.


And to be honest, I'm gonna keep making mistakes. Mistakes are fun to make, as long as you accept you are going to have to fix them or live with them. I am still planning to build a mahjong machine, that is a mistake waiting to be born.

[yotsuya]

Angling my joysticks. All of them. P1, P2, P3 and P4. I got rid of that design very quickly. I am glad i did it as test panel.

[Malenko]

Marble contact shelf paper, `nuff said

I just laughed and everyone in the office looked at me.

[yotsuya]

^^^ I just laughed and everyone in the office looked at me. Then I texted Malenko and made fun of him.

I consider Malenko one of the best builders on this board. Just goes to show you the power of learning and growing in this hobby.

[pbj]

That's not... horrible.  If the control panel wasn't angled it would be livable...

[Vigo]

Angling my joysticks. All of them. P1, P2, P3 and P4. I got rid of that design very quickly. I am glad i did it as test panel.

Let's count the problems with this picture. Ignore the spinner and trackball that were planned for that panel.

[Vigo]

That's not... horrible.  If the control panel wasn't angled it would be livable...

Yeah, seems pretty good for circa 2003-ish. Maybe ---smurfy--- by 2015 standards, but at least it is proportional.

[yotsuya]

That's not... horrible.  If the control panel wasn't angled it would be livable...

Yeah, seems pretty good for circa 2003-ish. Maybe ---smurfy--- by 2015 standards, but at least it is proportional.

If that's good for 2003-ish, I'm glad I didn't get into this until 2010. 

[yotsuya]

These are my first two MAME cabs. You can see my awesome mini-Frankenpanel in this photo in all its glory.

[Malenko]

it was 2001 2002 ish cause that's when I was renting the basement in that house.  That panel was also just a 2 player PSX "fight stick" with some marble contact paper and ricer car stickers on it. A "Blaze Home Arcade Twin Shock"

[yotsuya]

it was 2001 2002 ish cause that's when I was renting the basement in that house.  That panel was also just a 2 player PSX "fight stick" with some marble contact paper and ricer car stickers on it. A "Blaze Home Arcade Twin Shock"

What became of it?

[Ginsu Victim]

A mistake I *almost* made....
Before joining this community, I almost built my first MAME cabinet out of one of these I was given free:



I don't know how that would've even worked.

Edit:
Here it is in the background! (Oh, those holes on the CP were already there....not my mistake!)

[Malenko]

took it apart. TV went to my niece, PC went to my nephew, I hung onto the fight stick for a while till it ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- the bed. Cab was the first victim of my circular saw, my 3rd pole position was the most recent. Same saw too.

[SavannahLion]

Not realizing that long soaked particle board offers NO resistance to an antique maul hammer head welded to a length of steel pipe. I walked with a limp for a week.

The smart thing was placing my all spare monitors on the floor, saved my back a lot of pain. The mistake was placing my all spare coin doors and boxes on the shelf directly above same monitors, causing my wallet to scream in agony.

Completely disassembling a cabinet of all its components, right down to the last screw... then forgetting which boxes I put half the parts in after completing the woodwork on the cabinet. Oh yeah, and destroying the monitor when the coin door landed on it. 

My personal favorite, forgetting the soldering iron was hot at some ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up hour in the morning....

[JMB]

Making the cab playable before being fully finished. I swear it'll be 100% done one of these years.

[eds1275]

Using MDF. I know it's sort of a go-to around here, but I've used quality ply for the last few builds and will not go back. The dust, the weight, the pansiness to moisture... Sure the ply costs $60 and the MDF is only $40, but it's not a deal breaker. This hobby isn't really something that can be done well (scratch builds anyway) on a budget.

[yotsuya]

Using MDF. I know it's sort of a go-to around here, but I've used quality ply for the last few builds and will not go back. The dust, the weight, the pansiness to moisture... Sure the ply costs $60 and the MDF is only $40, but it's not a deal breaker. This hobby isn't really something that can be done well (scratch builds anyway) on a budget.

Yeah, I built a Tully-style jukebox for a friend of mine out of quality ply, and it was so light. I'm with you there! 

[jdbailey1206]

I once made the mistake of going to sleep with Bo Derek and woke up with Bo Diddley. 

[pbj]

I made the 'have a couple drinks, get glib, and say, "I can make one of these for like $500" and now get stuck telling a friend of a friend to ---fudgesicle--- off' mistake.  To my credit, it had been several years. 

After being barraged with, "can you make me a Donkey Kong with an Xbox One in it in two weeks" texts the next morning I apologized, briefly laid out how these cabinets run more like $800 minimum at-cost, and they TRIED TO HAGGLE ME DOWN TO $400. 

I referred them to Craig's List.

*sigh*

[Vigo]

Using MDF. I know it's sort of a go-to around here, but I've used quality ply for the last few builds and will not go back. The dust, the weight, the pansiness to moisture... Sure the ply costs $60 and the MDF is only $40, but it's not a deal breaker. This hobby isn't really something that can be done well (scratch builds anyway) on a budget.

  I'm riding this train. I have been using plywood and won't touch MDF. The quality sanded stuff is so easy to work with.

[jdbailey1206]

Using MDF. I know it's sort of a go-to around here, but I've used quality ply for the last few builds and will not go back. The dust, the weight, the pansiness to moisture... Sure the ply costs $60 and the MDF is only $40, but it's not a deal breaker. This hobby isn't really something that can be done well (scratch builds anyway) on a budget.

  I'm riding this train. I have been using plywood and won't touch MDF. The quality sanded stuff is so easy to work with.

Sanded plywood is nice!  Expensive but nice. 

[Howard_Casto]

I did my pacman repro out of furniture grade ply and will not go back.  It's well worth the extra cost to know that short of some rather extreme conditions it's NEVER going to fall apart. 

[wp34]

Has anybody tried MDO?  I'm taking my daughter to Menards tonight to buy materials for her Fix-it-Felix.  We are planning to try MDO since it has a plywood core and a smooth hardboard finish.

[eds1275]

MDO is hard to find without special ordering, but I would give it a chance. Apparently it costs as much as nice ply though.

[wp34]

MDO is hard to find without special ordering, but I would give it a chance. Apparently it costs as much as nice ply though.

You are correct about the price.  It was on sale for $60 a sheet.  All 5 sheets that Menards had were scratched really bad.  We couldn't decide how well that hardboard surface would hold up either.  If they would have had an unblemished sheet I would have bought one to try it.

[Howard_Casto]

Well hardboard is susceptible to swelling via moisture, is hard to paint due to it's treated finish and because of it's density eats though bits like nobodies business.  If plywood is the same price go with ply. 

I think MDO is more for something that you don't want to finish and yet you want a durable surface... like furniture for toddlers and ect.  It isn't for something you want to paint or finish in any way. 

[DaOld Man]

Married a ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?---.

Been there. Done that.

But about the arcade making business...
I have made so many mistakes I dont even know where to start.
One that sticks out in my mind is using particle board (pressed wood, whatever that crap is called) on my first juke box, in an attempt to cut down on weight.
Never used particle board since and never will again (for this hobby anyway.)

[Vigo]

All 5 sheets that Menards had were scratched really bad.

My #1 complaint about Menards. It is like they source their wood based on unwanted leftovers from distributors, and if you need something very specific, it is a gamble. That has always been their problem. Back in the 60's when there was only one Menards, and it was only a lumber yard, my Grandfather owned a construction biz in the same town. They would steer clear of Menards when they could because the wood was always damaged and warped.

I still go there above home depot for wood because the "cut your own wood" model can get even more insane. You need 20 six foot boards of a certain wood, and they only stock ten footers, you will need to A) Sit and cut 20 boards by hand in the store, B) Look for scraps, or C) Grossly overpay for for an extra 80 feet of wood.

[pbj]

I don't think anyone buys wood at Menards except amateurs looking to build a deck that's going to fall down in three years.

[Generic Eric]

I took myself way too seriously.  I was going to have this sleek awesome cab that did everything.  It didn't.  A simple box is simple.  Why so many weird curves?  That isn't generic at all.

I used plans as guidelines.  I wanted to express myself as some sort of fantastic artist with an out of the box idea.  I never finished any of them.  I suffered for my art; it just suffered.

1/32" margin of error on dimensional lumber?  I've got this.   

[yotsuya]

I took myself way too seriously.  I was going to have this sleek awesome cab that did everything.  It didn't.  A simple box is simple.  Why so many weird curves?  That isn't generic at all.

I used plans as guidelines.  I wanted to express myself as some sort of fantastic artist with an out of the box idea.  I never finished any of them.  I suffered for my art; it just suffered.

1/32" margin of error on dimensional lumber?  I've got this.   

Amen, brother!!!

[wp34]

All 5 sheets that Menards had were scratched really bad.

My #1 complaint about Menards. It is like they source their wood based on unwanted leftovers from distributors, and if you need something very specific, it is a gamble. That has always been their problem. Back in the 60's when there was only one Menards, and it was only a lumber yard, my Grandfather owned a construction biz in the same town. They would steer clear of Menards when they could because the wood was always damaged and warped.

I still go there above home depot for wood because the "cut your own wood" model can get even more insane. You need 20 six foot boards of a certain wood, and they only stock ten footers, you will need to A) Sit and cut 20 boards by hand in the store, B) Look for scraps, or C) Grossly overpay for for an extra 80 feet of wood.

I tend to go to Menards before HD or Lowes also.  I prefer to drive my truck into the lumber yard versus loading the wood into a cart and then loading it into my truck. 

[BadMouth]

On my first setup, I regret wasting time setting up all the console games...except the fighting games on dreamcast.

On my current cab:

Using white primer for red paint.  It took like 10 coats (not exaggerating) to get even coverage.  Use dark primer for red paint.

Using a monitor with poor viewing angles from the bottom in a rotating setup where it would be vertical sometimes.  (P2's view is darker than P1's)

Switching to hacked xbox360 controllers while not having all 8 buttons or using an xbox360.  I thought it would be Steam game bliss, but created more issues than it solved.
A keyboard encoder using only letter and number keys paired with the x360kb solution stickied in the software forum is still the best solution IMO. 

Not planning out my CP box well.  The top and control layout is great, but the box is so shallow and small that it severely limits my options when it comes to rotating joysticks, spinners, trackballs, etc.  It's not very deep because of the way I did the slider mechanism, which wasn't really planned out.  But that's how I work.  Things just kind of evolve as I build.

Not cab build related, but since I bought the house I was renting I regret selling ABACABB the big beautiful 29" VGA CRT monitor I had.  (If you're reading this and need money, I'll buy it back for whatever you paid me originally.  )
I'd be building a huge frankenbeast of a cab around it that wouldn't fit out the basement door.  OE light guns, 4 players, 3 steering wheels, the works. 

Gonna give plywood a try on the next build.

[SlappyKungFuGrip]

My mistake..The pic says it all.. What was I thinking !!   But I love buttons!

[Typefighter01]

My mistake..The pic says it all.. What was I thinking !!   But I love buttons!

Your spinner locations just made my day, I seriously just laughed out loud at my work desk...thank you

I can't say much, as the button spacing on my first cab was so far apart, only the tips of my fingers would reach even with my fingers fully extended and hand flat. I have to guess almost everyone regrets some portion of their first cab...it is healthy to be able to laugh at ourselves 

[wp34]

My mistake..The pic says it all.. What was I thinking !!   But I love buttons!

That's the right way to make a mistake.  Call it R&D. 

[monkeybomb]

I read slowly and have little patience for instructions, so they are actually difficult for me get through, even when I stick it out.  So I end up jumping into things without proper per-requsite knowledge.  Well... that's a disaster in this hobby and I've made far more mistakes than things I've done correctly.  From the outside, the funniest is probably that I borrowed a router without knowing what would happen and cut a t-molding slot in my apartment.  While the slot was cut correctly and the t-molding looked nice, it turns out that MDF dust goes flying absolutely everywhere when you do this.  Completely sprayed the entire place.  I guess I thought the wood from the slot would just politely fall down as was

If I have an actual regret is that I sold the first thing that I was really happy with.  It was a SFII showcase control panel with a computer mounted inside.  I think I paid $25 for the CP and I don't think I can match that today.  It ended up as a plug and play arcade in a box with optical sticks and a shazam key that allowed me to have access to everything without adding buttonholes to the panel.  It felt real to play it, even on a TV.  The picture on the BST thread is just of the CP from e-bay when I bought it.  I don't have a pic of the computer mounted in the box, but you've seen those.  And I never owned that cow.  Don't put that on me.

Last one.  You could call it a mistake, but I got a kick out of the result and decided not to change it when I had a chance a few months after it happened.  The group was trying to get a thread sent to post hell and I said that Saint was over-rated.  I'll let you figure out the consequence.

[SlappyKungFuGrip]

Another mistake.. Drilling pinball buttons. Always check that they dont crash with the Cp buttons !

[SavannahLion]

C and E clips.

[Howard_Casto]

Something I regret is some of my "purist" philosophies.  The biggest one is the monitor.  If it's a conversion and there is an arcade monitor in there then fine, but I doubt I'll ever go back to clunky old crt's ever again for a new build.  Sometimes you've got to get with the times and although I love the way a 15khz crt looks, it severely limits what you can do and play, not to mention the fact that the bigger ones weigh a ton. 

[eds1275]

Something I regret is some of my "purist" philosophies.  The biggest one is the monitor.

I've always been about playing the games and not about mucking about with ancient hardware. I also understand the costs of real estate, and couldn't imagine having a 3 foot deep arcade machine taking up space.

[yotsuya]

Something I regret is some of my "purist" philosophies.  The biggest one is the monitor.

I've always been about playing the games and not about mucking about with ancient hardware. I also understand the costs of real estate, and couldn't imagine having a 3 foot deep arcade machine taking up space.

Different perspectives are interesting. Over time, I've found more satisfaction from repairing the ancient hardware and couldn't imagine playing games on anything other than a 3 foot deep arcade machine.

[Xiaou2]

Its not about "Getting with the Times"

 Its about the intended output look.

 No LCD, can simulate a Vector CRT monitor look well.  Laser beams are closest thing to a vector monitor brightness.
 LCDs are notorious for distorting and blurring non native resolutions.  (most classics, are low resolution)
 LCDs lifespan is about 5 years max... if your lucky.   A good CRT can last well over 20 years without repairs.
 A cabinet that is light weight (LCD),  is a cabinet that can be rocked around too easily during heavy action gaming.
 LCDs often have problems matching color performance, and Contrast levels, of CRTs.
 LCDs still often have motion blur and viewing angle issues.
 LCDs have their place for newer games.   But for classics... it does not improve things... it degrades them.
 Older Console gaming systems look better on CRTs as well.
 *And... you really dont save much space when you use an LCD anyways.   You still should be using the proper slanted viewing angle,
and your going to have people standing behind it.   What do you really save?  1ft max?

 If your from an era more centeralized on the 90s - 00s,  then you might not value the real CRT experience as much.

 Also, younger generation people tend to stick their noses up at older things... mostly out of pride of what they consider "Their Era".
New does not always mean better.   It often takes a lot of effort, to get these people to see past this.


 One elder EGM magazine article said that it was possible to hook a Sega Genesis up to an RGB monitor.    Turned out that the Amiga 500 Monitor I had, was RGB.   I called up a cable making company, and had them custom build an RGB cable.  I was shocked at how clean and clear the picture was.  However, many games didnt look good as a result.  The games were designed to be seen with the typical composite distortion.  They used the signal and CRT distortion, to devise the artwork look, and flicker effects.    I ended up using the standard composite signal as a result of many games looking painfully awful, on RGB.

 Some of the Filters on Mame help the look... but they still are often far from what the games are really supposed to look like.

 Further making things worse... is that timing of the games are often locked to the monitor refresh.   LCDs dont do odd refresh rates... and
so the games dont even play the same.  Visual and Audio skips... and other problems are going to take place.

 So, it boils down to what games you are playing, and whether you can deal with them looking vastly different than they should.
Not about the Age of the equipment being used.

 Ive got a pair of speakers made in the 70s, that will blow 95% of the modern speakers made today, completely out of the water.   Ive recently compared these against the top model speakers in a high end Stereo Shop... and their flagship $3000 speakers could not even hold a candle to my "Ancient" speakers.

 Its not the age, its the functional results, that matter.

[pbj]

Man, I think everyone in the world read that same EGM article.  Had me wondering for years what an RGB monitor was.

[eds1275]

Some people can enjoy games for what they are instead of crying that the LCD screen doesn't bleed colour between the pixels or whatever. In a heated game of street fighter, I actually don't end up doing street fighter moves to the cabinet because even though it has an LCD in it it still weighs a bunch. I guess if I gained another 150 pounds and put my weight into it I suppose...

[Malenko]

X2's post is hidden, because I'm ignoring him, but I assume you're responding to him. As soon as he can get some citation from any reputable source for any of his outlandish claims I'll bother with replying. I just know he said that LCDs only last a few years, I can feel it, and he's a broken record.

[Token]

Regarding CRT vs. LCD--

We all come at this hobby with different interests and perspectives. Some are audio/techno-philes who simply cannot enjoy playing a classic game on an LCD, and will spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars to recreate the past. Others are just hoping to enjoy old games from their youth and they don't care or even notice if the image is not even close to the original. I imagine most of fit somewhere in between, and have to balance the costs in time and money with a desire to make these games close to original.

[Howard_Casto]

X2's post is hidden, because I'm ignoring him, but I assume you're responding to him. As soon as he can get some citation from any reputable source for any of his outlandish claims I'll bother with replying. I just know he said that LCDs only last a few years, I can feel it, and he's a broken record.

Yeah pretty close.  Same old schtick. He also dismisses hlsl/glsl options for the most part and that's the thing....  They aren't perfect by any means but a person has to outweigh the pros and cons of different display options and lcds win in most cases.  On an arcade pcb, no they don't, but on a mame cab where if you run games natively you'll  have to deal with oddball resolutions like medium res and vector games and vertical games a 15khz crt stops being practical.  Then your next crt option is a multi-sync that handles medium res (costly) or a vga/svga crt, which really gives you the same output as the lcd, only it's heavy and at this point costly if you get the arcade ready variety. 

I can't fault people for wanting arcade monitors though... depending upon the setup and the needs of the user it might be a better option and in many cases it does result in a more accurate picture. 

That wasn't my point in my original comment though and as usual X2 can't see the forest for the trees.  My point was I used to be under the mindset that for certain things in this hobby there is only one proper way to do things.  A person needs to be more flexible though.  I ended up preferring lcds because I stopped being so stubborn and tried something new.  We should all learn to give new ideas and technology a try once in a while

I have a hard time being a purist anymore because since around 2005, games in the arcades are really pc games.... they look best on lcd monitors and your more "arcadey" titles are now released on the pc and aside from rare "throw back" exceptions like shovel knight and fix it felix, the games are now high res.  I love the classics sure, but if I have a refrigerator sized appliance in my house I want to get more use out of it than the 20 or 30 games I liked as a kid. 

[Xiaou2]

Thats Not what you posted.   You said  "Sometimes you just got to get with the times"
As well as "Old clunky CRTs"

 It easily implies age over functionality.    As well as simple mud slinging.

 Flexibility is more than just about accepting new things.   Its also about being flexible as a person.   (as well as accepting Older things as well as newer)

 Everything has a reason and a season.    You may have different opinions on what you care to use... but that doesnt negate its uses, and advantages.

 And yeah... You skipped right over the part where I mentioned "Filters".   Meaning, HLSL  stuff.
Its nice, but its still not accurate.   Its also a pain to try to dial in.

 Yes, CRTs do limit use of Newer games.   (with possible exception to a converter being used)     But thats a price many are willing to pay, to get the correct arcade experience.   One without any hiccups, as well as looking correct.


 Its not always what you say... but How its said... that causes the "Sandpaper" effect.

[Xiaou2]

Some people can enjoy games for what they are instead of crying that the LCD screen doesn't bleed colour between the pixels or whatever. In a heated game of street fighter, I actually don't end up doing street fighter moves to the cabinet because even though it has an LCD in it it still weighs a bunch. I guess if I gained another 150 pounds and put my weight into it I suppose...

 Try a marathon of Robotron, and see how you fare.  Bring a couple of friends and alternate.   Some people are more reactive.
Also, leaf sticks may be a good part of it too.

 Robotron is far more intense a game, and usually causes a good deal of adrenalin.   Ive seen many real Robotron cabinets get moved around.
Im sure Ive done it myself a bit too.

[HanoiBoi]

Xiaou2, you always tell it as you see it...any mistakes to share?

My mistakes are slightly different than those posted.  I often get stuck on stuff and dont know how to best move on.  Ill research off and on, but not quite find an a solution, then skip it.  Too much unfinshed.  Mostly stuck on stuff like graphics and lectricity.  Pretty bad at both..and sadly dont feel that I'll get better.

On the LCD/CRT thing...personally, I'm fine with LCD, but I  understand and appreciate those who feel differently.  In addition, I also have no problem playing vertical games on my horizontally mounted LCD, but  I guess I understand why some might want to rotate their monitors or build a 2nd dedicated cab.

[shponglefan]

LCDs lifespan is about 5 years max... if your lucky.   A good CRT can last well over 20 years without repairs.

I'd be curious to know where you are getting this information from.

I've owned 7 LCD monitors and only one developed issues.  And those issues were related to the bad power supply capacitors that hit LCDs back a number of years ago, and are a relatively easy repair (if you know a bit about soldering and electronics).  In fact, I still have the first LCD monitor I ever bought (a Syncmaster 930B) and it's about 10 years old.  Still works perfectly.

I've also had relatively good success with CRTs, but did have a couple develop some problems.  And I did witness one instance at work where a CRT died resulting in a loud bang and puff of smoke.  CRTs may not go bad often, but when they do the results can be scary. 

Older Console gaming systems look better on CRTs as well.

I think that might depend on the consoles.  I've done a lot of NES/SNES gaming on CRT TVs and emulated on newer LCDs, and I have no desire to go back to CRT displays.

As odd as this may sound, I've actually found my favorite display for console gaming is now my smartphone.  SNES games in particular look incredible, and I haven't had issues with screen tearing or judder.  They do look more pixelated than older CRTs simply because of the lack of scanlines, but color-wise they are far more vivid.

[SavannahLion]

@ shponglefan

Of the four big screens in the last.... five years or something, three developed problems. The first became unusuable and the cost of parts alone exceeded what I paid. The second had the UI board fail twice and the fiberoptic jack is broken. The third (a plasma) has a bad shift register that results in ugly lines along the last two inches or so of screen real estate. Only the UI board failed during warranty and it failed again after warranty ended.

In the span of thirty plus years, I had two big screen CRT's and dozens of smaller screens. With probably three easily repaired failures and only one catastrophic unrepairable failure.

Besides total destruction during storage the CRT is coming out ahead in longevity.

I see a lot of flat screens kicked to the curb throughout the year. I used to take them to scavange the parts or get them working again  but when the IC's are hard to come by or cost nearly as much as the monitor, it's not worth my time anywmore. If I was lucky, it might be a broken back light, easy enough fix but otherwise? I just leave 'em on the curb now.

[Malenko]

Besides total destruction during storage the CRT is coming out ahead in longevity.

I dont think that was ever a question, CRTs can last a very very very long time. X2 is saying an LCD is good for 5 years tops if you're lucky, and I dont think that's an accurate statement at all. I think the worst part is he is once again selling opinion as fact and its quite tiresome. I also love that fact he didnt reply if he ever made any mistakes and what they were. 

[Howard_Casto]

My test monitor for computers and misc projects is an old 19' 4:3 lcd.  It will be hitting the 20 year mark very soon.  My experience has been that lcd televisions have poor lifespans... lcd monitors, on the other hand, last quite a while.  Yes, apparently there is a difference.... I'm not sure what that difference is other than a lack of a tuner, but that has been my observation anyway.  The one I'm using to view this site right now is a HP 2009m (which means it was made in 2009).  It's still as crisp as the day I took it out of the package.

Ignoring that though.... yes, the lifespan will be shorter, but you are also going to pay 1/3 the cost (or less) than a new 15khz crt so it kind of evens out.  Sure you can get a used arcade monitor and rebuild it, but I'm going to count that labor into the cost.

[Ginsu Victim]

Xiaou2, you always tell it as you see it...any mistakes to share?

There's a rotating control panel worth mentioning.

[SavannahLion]

Xiaou2, you always tell it as you see it...any mistakes to share?

There's a rotating control panel worth mentioning.

I just....

[eds1275]

Xiaou2, you always tell it as you see it...any mistakes to share?

There's a rotating control panel worth mentioning.

I believe there has never been any proof of this other than he told of the legend of all accurate controls on one spinny board or something. I want pics!

[harveybirdman]

Wasn't that the one on Crapmame?

[yotsuya]

Wasn't that the one on Crapmame?

[Token]

Wasn't that the one on Crapmame?

The original source has more pictures. If you view it as an early prototype rather than a playable cabinet, it does show ingenuity. Crapmame was a good introduction to see what kinds of mistakes to avoid, but it really isn't fair to judge early MAME efforts by today's standards.

OK, and I can't resist posting the archived link to Steve's Kung Fu and Inventions Page.

Incidentally, I've been thinking about naming my MAME project the "Wayback Machine."



 

[yotsuya]

Wasn't that the one on Crapmame?

The original source has more pictures. If you view it as an early prototype rather than a playable cabinet, it does show ingenuity. Crapmame was a good introduction to see what kinds of mistakes to avoid, but it really isn't fair to judge early MAME efforts by today's standards.

OK, and I can't resist posting the archived link to Steve's Kung Fu and Inventions Page.

Incidentally, I've been thinking about naming my MAME project the "Wayback Machine."

!!!

Great find, especially if you go to the original source you linked. Reading this thoughts on the design was very illuminating.

[pbj]

His kung fu attic is literally the scariest thing I've ever seen in my life.  Malenko's rape dungeon game room is second.

[yotsuya]

His kung fu attic is literally the scariest thing I've ever seen in my life.  Malenko's rape dungeon game room is second.

The sketches remind me of this dude I befriended on a "Robotech" alt.fan group. We talked about setting up a fan page for the show (this was like around 1999). He sent me a link to his Geocities page, and it was filled with his own hand-penciled sketches of handguns, drawn on notebook paper. Needless to say, the fan page didn't happen. 

[Malenko]

Malenko's rape dungeon game room is second.

Bro, its just an unfinished garage!

[SavannahLion]

His kung fu attic is literally the scariest thing I've ever seen in my life.  Malenko's rape dungeon game room is second.

The sketches remind me of this dude I befriended on a "Robotech" alt.fan group. We talked about setting up a fan page for the show (this was like around 1999). He sent me a link to his Geocities page, and it was filled with his own hand-penciled sketches of handguns, drawn on notebook paper. Needless to say, the fan page didn't happen. 

Same thing here for a popular game. Guy showed me his gay fanfur page filled with sketches.

[Malenko]

His kung fu attic is literally the scariest thing I've ever seen in my life.  Malenko's rape dungeon game room is second.

Also, then you didnt see this on his page:

[pbj]

Are we really going to go through the bash Xiaou2's website from 10+ years ago thing again?  I had plenty of cringe worthy stuff on Geocities.  Thank god I never made crapmame.

[Malenko]

Are we really going to go through the bash Xiaou2's website from 10+ years ago thing again?  I had plenty of cringe worthy stuff on Geocities.  Thank god I never made crapmame.

So you bash his attic and thats cool, I laugh at his hair and only Im the dick? 

good talk 

[yotsuya]

Are we really going to go through the bash Xiaou2's website from 10+ years ago thing again?  I had plenty of cringe worthy stuff on Geocities.  Thank god I never made crapmame.

I must have missed that the first time around.

Again, I actually enjoyed reading the thought process behind the control polka barrel. Dat hair, tho.

[SavannahLion]

 That's not too bad. There was a time I wore blue hair and orange shorts back in my youth. Of course, I also wore a blue powder jacket, metallic pants and a red dragon hat with bright green Rossignol skis during the winter so who am I to say anything?

I kind of imagined him like my sons Karate instructor. Fit but with glasses and male pattern baldness.

[Ginsu Victim]

Are we really going to go through the bash Xiaou2's website from 10+ years ago thing again?

That was the reason I brought it up!

[Xiaou2]

Firstly, LCD monitors have a certain Lamp life.  Usually its rated at something like 30 to 50,000 hrs.  Which some have translated into 5 years.
However, due to the shoddy nature of electronics these days... many other components are failing before the bulb.

 I had a 37" LCD go bad in less than 3 years.  It wasnt a bulb issue either.   I also see a lot of LCDs tossed on the Curb, and even some people trying to sell them on ebay and craigslists for parts.  (often at ridiculous prices)

 I believe some of this issue is due to the non-leaded solder.   From what I was told when working at a PCB shop (doing Photographic Lithography)  is that the new soldier does not always flow and stick too well.   You get a lot of through holes that do not get coated well... and a lot of poor soldier joints (something like that).    Over time, heat ... expansion and contraction, as well as the device being moved around a lot.. can cause just enough strain... to break some of the bad soldier joints.    (The particular TV I had got Very hot actually.  A lot hotter than I expected an LCD to ever become.   I believe at one point... I even placed a small fan behind it... to help keep it cooler)

 Add that to poor quality components placed on the board... and it makes things even worse.

Heh.  I can laugh at my own 'hair' decision... which is why I posted it.   Why on earth would people think it offends me?  lol

 And I dont have any regrets about my Prototypes either.   I learned a lot from building things from scratch.

 The actual design, minus the add on top panel... was very much functional.   I probably should have just finished it, and enjoyed it.

 However... during the process of construction and design... I made some discoveries about some of my former ignorances ... such as the importance of real Leafswitch controls.    I had a chance to play a real Robotron locally... and became hooked.   Found the Wico 8 way leafs to be superior to any other stick for use in this... and some other classic games.    From there... I then discovered the advantages of Leaf buttons as well.  Id never known about "Feathering" a leaf before... and that changed everything.

 Because of these giant shifts in control desires..  it totally conflicted with my previous panels.

 Also, I was working a mega overtime... and finally getting enough money to buy many other real arcade controllers... rather than have to build them myself.    Some of my builds like the Starwars yoke worked great...  however, it wasnt anywhere as sturdy as the real deal.  I still was a bit shaky on my metal & woodworking abilities at the time... and probably could do much better the 2nd time around.

 While saving and collecting more parts up...  I had a different vision starting to form.   I had seen Unclets horizontal machine... and it made more sense to me to replicate something similar to that.  This would make it more comfortable to play, and make driving games easier.   I spent some time re-designing the thing... and came up with some nice stuff...  but...

 Eventually I got sick.   Id get home and have zero energy to go much at all.   This trend was a slow and agonizing process... squeezing the life out of me... and throwing me into depression as well.   Soon I would end up having 2 Surgeries.  Removal of my Gall Bladder... and later, half of my Thyroid removed.   I lost my good paying job... and that only made things worse.

 I was getting insane Migranes, and horrible joint and muscle pains... along with the low energy levels.   I was falling apart.   Eventually my system became so bad... that it finally reacted violently to certain things.   Thats when I learned that I was very much allergic to Wheat (Gluten).   Id soon find out I was also allergic to dairy and eggs.   (and probably some other stuff as well)

 Removing these out of my diet helped Greatly in my energy and recovery to feeling a little better.   However, my system is still aggrivated often... and kicks my butt often.   Every day is a new struggle.     The food restrictions made it very difficult,  as now I had to make everything from scratch.  I could no longer eat out,  or eat some easy microwave dinner.   Specialty gluten replacement foods are also about 5x in costs... so my food bills had skyrocketed off the charts.   I got to be a pretty darn good cook...   but I had no money left to do anything with.  Not to mention... not much time left, after making those dishes... and then cleaning up afterwards.

 Eventually Id have another surgery.   A previous mini bellybutton hernia Id had repaired... fused into my intestine.  It blocked the path for food to digest... and as a result... I was tossing my cookies constantly.   They had to remove a section of my upper bowel.  The wound became infected after the operation... so they ripped it open again... and when I woke up...  I had a huge open hole that you could easily fit a golf ball into.  Every day it had to be cleaned and rebandaged.   I was out of work for a good long time.

 (Skipping a lot in the middle here... )

 Eventually, the house I was staying at was sold... and all of my belongings were placed into storage.   I lost a lot of things as well.
Ive had to move all of my stuff several times...   but now, Ive gone into debt so badly... that I will be forced to claim bankruptcy in the next few days.  I will lose everything I had spend so much time working to achieve...   Every tool.  Every game part.  etc..    20 years of efforts gone.

 I had been living in my minivan for a spell... due to major van repair costs.   I was able to eventually pay them off... but I lost my job again.
Ill be seeking help and some form of shelter soon after I claim bankruptcy.

 Feel free to throw all the stones you wish.

[Malenko]

Firstly, LCD monitors have a certain Lamp life.  Usually its rated at something like 30 to 50,000 hrs.  Which some have translated into 5 years.
However, due to the shoddy nature of electronics these days... many other components are failing before the bulb.

Sounds like you might be mixing up your LCD monitors. Older LCDs had a fluorescent tube rather than a bulb, more often than not the inverters would go prior to the actual tube dying. Newer monitors are LED back lit, and the life expectancy of the LED is approximately 50,000 hours. 50k hours at say 10hrs a day is almost 14 years. So yes, in theory if you had a monitor that had no power save mode and you used it 24/7 and it died the moment it hit 50k hrs, it would only last 6 years. CRTs have the exact same components fail as an LCD, that's why they sell cap kits for CRTs too.

You are taking rated expected failure as "life span" and its not the same thing.  The rated expected failure is the earliest expected failure not the normal expected failure.

Can we just agree that each display has its pros and cons and leave it at that? Whole LCDs vs CRTs is tired out.

[Xiaou2]

  Im very aware of how LCDs work.   Ive taken them apart myself.  (I call the "Tubes"  bulbs.  Its simply general terminology.  IE:  Please hand me the replacement bulb over there... )

I keep up on new technology pretty well.

 Unfortunately, as stated... usually its other parts that blow up first.
And interestingly enough... its probably fair to assume that PC based LCD monitors are made to a much higher reliability standpoint.
Unfortunately, if you want a larger LCD... the TV option tends to be the option that would be the best fit.

 As for the Cap-Kit comment... well, I just dont think its a very valid counter.   It can take something like over 25 years for something like that to happen.  The elder caps tended to be quite robust.

[Xiaou2]

Additionally...  to add to my  "Mistakes"

 2)  Curved Button Layout

   I believed I was the 1st to try out a curved button layout,  as the time when I started my prototype.  (That might not be the case... but at that time, I saw no others like it)     What felt good on flat cardboard.. using drawn circles...   did not feel right when I actually built the panel.

 My fingers kept getting lost.. and pressing buttons on the very edges..  which really stinks on a concave button.

 It turns out, that you dont lay your hand flat on the panel... the way that I initially tested things.   You bend your fingers at the knuckles.
This reduces your finger spread, but gives you greater Leverage power..  for easy rapidfire shots.

 The only exception might be if you used flat or convex buttons that have low actuation force..  and short travel.
 As when your hand is flat... your fingers lose a lot of power.

 Even then... Its easier for the mind to know where the buttons are... if they are in perfectly straight rows.

 3)  Stubborn Attitude

  Initially I had poor notions about certain technology... such as  "Old Leaf"  buttons and joysticks.   I can admit it.   I made some poor arguments,  and was fairly ignorant to the correct use and reasons for using these.

 The arguments may have helped however... because I learned of  "Feathering" ... something I never knew.    Id then get my hands on the real deal... and became a convert.     Ive also become far more open minded towards things I was not really all that certain about.

[Malenko]

I think a thread where people can show others mistakes they've made so that others can learn from their mistakes is a pretty brilliant idea. This way its not people pointing out things they disagree with that other people have done but mistakes they made themselves. Its in the same vein as the the "post your first MAME cab thread" but I knew the chuff wouldn't last. It is inevitable.


EDIT: Typo city :/

[Token]

"Haven't checked the new replies in the Mistakes I've Made thread lately. Lemme check it out."




A mistake I made was getting the software side playable before making much progress on the cabinet.

[yotsuya]

(I'll clean this up in a bit)

Just leave it be. Why aggravate  yourself?

[saint]

(I'll clean this up in a bit)

Just leave it be. Why aggravate  yourself?

I wanted to get in on the "making mistakes" action

Thread edited, please keep it on topic and off personal issues folks - thanks!

[Slippyblade]

Saint's biggest mistake, at least from an aggravation angle...  Making a website for building your own arcade controls!

[saint]

By the way, for those of you who don't know... Xiaou2 is one of the pioneers of this hobby. I don't know that he ever made a complete or successful system, but he is one of the guys in the early days who was always pushing the envelope trying new things. The rotating barrel contraption preceded most of the rotating control panels, his tinkering with analog controls, digging into how things work, etc., certainly helped set the tone for the evolution of this hobby. Credit where credit is due.

[saint]

Saints biggest mistake, at least from an aggravation angle...  Making a website for building your own arcade controls!

Heh. *Like!*

[monkeybomb]

No dog in the sidebar, so I saw the long post and just read the first word and ending.

Firstly...Feel free to throw all the stones you wish.

To avoid simply being off topic, I'll add the mistake of plugging in a CPS2 board to a jamma harness set up for a multiboard that uses the ground for button 6.  The ground wires start smoking for those who are curious.

[Slippyblade]

To avoid simply being off topic, I'll add the mistake of plugging in a CPS2 board to a jamma harness set up for a multiboard that uses the ground for button 6.  The ground wires start smoking for those who are curious.

Wow, that sounds like an expensive oopsie.

[Howard_Casto]

I did something similar.  My gorf machine uses 12v opto switches for the joystick.... the data wires run though the same harness and I stupidly didn't label the power wires so 5 years later when I went to update some stuff....magic blue smoke.  I saved the joystick but it fried the I-pac. 

Label EVERYTHING. 

[jtslade]

I spent so many hours trying to make my decased svideo crt tv look good in my mame cab. So much wasted time. Finally wised up and put in a 25" arcade monitor and almost wept it was so perfect


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