High school drop outs

[Vigo]

Looking from the outside, I get the impression your nephews look up to you quite a bit. Even if it is a summer thing, I think you have enough cool interests that something has to spark with them if you can get them to come over for at least a few weeks. Maybe toe the line where you can crack into another awesome project with them as long as they don't fail out of school. They might respond to that.  If they are really in hillbilly hell, then there might be enough incentive alone that they can get out of town during the summer if they pass at school.

[ark_ader]

We all have opinions, shouldn't you share yours with reasoning behind it seeing as you have 19 years (at minimum) in the education field?  Otherwise why even bring that up?   

Because I don't feel like Internet fighting today. Nobody wins.

You seem to like to piss on my threads, why not here? 

Looking from the outside, I get the impression your nephews look up to you quite a bit. Even if it is a summer thing, I think you have enough cool interests that something has to spark with them if you can get them to come over for at least a few weeks. Maybe toe the line where you can crack into another awesome project with them as long as they don't fail out of school. They might respond to that.  If they are really in hillbilly hell, then there might be enough incentive alone that they can get out of town during the summer if they pass at school.

This could work, if you make it an incentive.

[Xiaou2]

Heya Ed,

 First, Props to you for looking out for them.   So many people are so wrapped up in themselves... and cant even be bothered to help... even if asked directly.

 Some of the Harsh words said in reply here, sadden me greatly.   It shows lack of compassion, empathy, understanding, patience and care.


 Condensed:

 - Mother  :  Mentally Abusive.  Hate, anger, manipulative,  ... and Neglectful.   No attention nor affection was given.
 - Father   :  Physically and Mentally abusive.   A true terror, that I was lucky to survive.
 - Poverty :  Not even an Atari... until like 1mo. from non-production.  Few toys. Not much to eat. Few clothes, many stained, ripped, and or way too small.

 - Bullied and made fun of at school.   No friends till maybe 8th grade... in a different school.
-  Bullied at the Appt. complex we were living at.

 - Spent most of my youth, hating myself, poverty, parents, and suicide was a consideration...
 - Had no motivation or drive.  Almost always tired. Hard time concentrating.  Was slow mentally, compared to the other kids.
 - Was weak and clumsy.  Always picked last in gym. Always made fun of, and or railed for my lackings in coordination.

 - Dropped out of School in the middle of 10th grade... due to huge conflict with Mother.

 - Video games may have been one of the few reasons why I made it this far.   They took my mind away from the pain and suffering I was going through on a daily basis.

 - Years of neglect and abuse, and a loveless life... led to years of intolerable loneliness... creating repeating cycles of heavy Depression that lasted almost into my 30s.   Feeling so empty and alone... that it was like I had a hole inside my heart.  It burned as if it  was on fire.   Id get weeks of it, put a bandaid over it.... and keep moving on...  but it would always rip back open again.

 - It also created a lack of confidence and self worth.   Hence, when I did get into negative relationships... I stuck with them... because I felt that was all I really deserved...
 

 It took years of self repair to try to Undo the damages that were impressed into me as a child, from my father.
First, to become aware of my issues... and next, to try to find a way to get past them.

 I was deeply hurting internally, as a result of neglect, as well as not having a single shred of Love in my home life.  All I got was pushed around and abused.

 My only inspiration, was my Grandfather.. but we only saw him on some of the Holidays.  He would drop everything, and say hello to us Kids.  He would pay full attention to us, tease us, play games, ask us how we were, give us warmth and love... and no matter what negative things mother said to him about our past Naughty behaviors... he didnt judge nor change his feelings about us.

 He was everything they were not.   Kind, Patient, Hard to anger,  never used curse words, always put others before himself, generous, respectful, a deep thinker, quick to forgive, didnt pre-judge others... nor make negative assumptions.  He was a great listener.  A problem solver, and conflict resolver.  If you upset him...  he would set you straight sternly... but then would still hug you and forgive you shortly after.  If only I could have had him as a father...


 Anyways... even with his influence..  it took a long time before I was able to approach his inner qualities.


 ***

 As a kid in such a place... I didnt see past my own nose.   I was living inside a dark tornado... blind to most everyone, and everything... as most all of my consciousness was Internal.  Internally feeling horrible.  Sorry for myself. Hate for myself and my life.  Anger for being brought into this world.  Pain & Suffering.  Nightly Nightmares that could be made into horror movies that would be Banned from being shown in Theaters..  Reliving negative past experiences.  Feeling bitterness, having Jealousy.

 Any attempt to impress importance of school was fully lost to me.   I didnt think Id even live past to graduation, let alone find a job in the 'Real World'.  Id figured Id just be a dishwasher at best... my full life.  I simply didnt care about anything.  Felt things were completely hopeless.   And so I gave up.  Didnt even really try.   No amount of force and stern words.. nor stern actions... would have changed my ways.   It only would have made me worse...  which is exactly what happened.

 At the Age of 16, mother got me a job washing dishes at her workplace.   It kind of helped to turn me around even more... because I now had the money to buy nice clothing... and since I felt better about myself, I looked happier and reacted better towards others.  I actually started to made more friendly relationships...  but then, we had to move...
due to mother divorcing step father...

 The story is far too long to fully get into... but the point basically boils down to the fact... that until I was strong enough internally... there was no hope whatsoever.    I needed most... someone to give some love and attention...  and some guidance that wasnt too harsh, too judgmental, too overbearing.  I needed Positive reinforcement.  Some experience.  And some time to fix my internals... so that anything would even remotely start to be heard.

 Remember that change is a long and slow process, in humans.  So despite your care and concern, remember to be patient...  and so try to disconnect failures or lack of progression, from your emotions.

 A Buddhist main principle, is that one should realize that mankind's Suffering, comes from Attachments.  From expectations.   If you are expect (emotionally attached)  a certain result... and it does not come to pass... then you will cause your own suffering.   However... if you remain kind of detached...  you can accept whatever results that follow.

 All that said.. I do know that I, as well as most... could have used a far better wake-up call about the "future to be".  But the schools... and even parents... rarely make these things that clear.    For example... young children often do not understand the real value of money... where it comes from...  how hard it is to earn it... and the monotony of the daily grind.   If a physical lesson is provided in a very realistic way...  It could very well lead to far better choices, as well as better parent to child relationships.   Also, many kids are a bit spoiled in some ways... in that many things are given easily to them.  Many come to expect this level of treatment.  Expect to be saved when they fall.  And parents fall into the trap of thinking Love is giving kids everything they ask for ... and or saving them from every negative circumstance they have gotten into.  Basically, creating a helpless, self-centered, careless, adult-baby.

 None of this stuff is easy.   And most of success in life, is overcoming ones Internal battles.


 Ed, I sincerely wish you and yours, the best of luck in overcoming these challenges.


 Admiration and Respect,
 Steve

[ark_ader]

That explains it.

[Xiaou2]

That explains it.

Funny enough, I was at a Managers meeting for Namco's Time-Out Arcades.   I sat amongst a table of like 10 managers.
They got to the issue of Hiring.  A bunch of them started spewing things about how nobody should hire dropouts... unless theres a GED.
Said that they just wouldnt be willing to work hard, could be thugs, thieves, and other stupid crap.

 Funny thing is that the DM whom hired me told me he wasnt supposed to hire, for that company policy.   I was already Managing an Ice Cream shop in the mall.   I told him, to prove myself, Id work from the bottom level employee upwards... but only with true intent to promote.   He hired me, and I was promoted twice.. making manager in under 3 months of training.

 I voiced my opinions to said table... of their idiocy.   That many whom have dropped out, may need the job more so than the others... and whom may be willing to work harder than the rest.

 Funny thing is... one story they told, was that of a "Diploma'd"  Manager,  whom was recently fired for selling tokens and pocketing the money... among other crooked things.   I think he even found a way to steal the deposit money as well.

 While I do not advise people to drop out...  It should never be a statement of whom they are.

 Quite frankly, most of school's memorized knowledge is utterly Useless...  and many people cant even remember the stuff, even a few years after, let alone a few months after getting out.

 Schooling doesnt prove character, drive, adaptability, attitude, nor work ethic.  It barely teaches you the ability to "Think" for oneself.

 But, because so many people are so Judgmental... its best to have the degree, else some zombie clown, will try to hold you down.

 

[pbj]

Nobody liked high school.  If you can't force yourself to sit through it and get the piece of paper, why would I think you'd do the job I'm paying you for?

[shponglefan]

Schooling doesnt prove character, drive, adaptability, attitude, nor work ethic.  It barely teaches you the ability to "Think" for oneself.

 But, because so many people are so Judgmental... its best to have the degree, else some zombie clown, will try to hold you down.

The thing is, if you're an employer and you have to pick from a selection of applicants, you don't have much to go by other than credentials and references.  And in the former department, if a person cannot even finish high school, are they someone I would want to hire?

Having a diploma demonstrates that a person can at least finish something, is probably trainable, and likely does not have the types of issues that leads one to dropping out.  Doesn't automatically mean they are going to be a good employee, but it does cut down on the perceived risk.

[ark_ader]

Schooling doesnt prove character, drive, adaptability, attitude, nor work ethic.  It barely teaches you the ability to "Think" for oneself.

 But, because so many people are so Judgmental... its best to have the degree, else some zombie clown, will try to hold you down.

The thing is, if you're an employer and you have to pick from a selection of applicants, you don't have much to go by other than credentials and references.  And in the former department, if a person cannot even finish high school, are they someone I would want to hire?

Having a diploma demonstrates that a person can at least finish something, is probably trainable, and likely does not have the types of issues that leads one to dropping out.  Doesn't automatically mean they are going to be a good employee, but it does cut down on the perceived risk.

You would think so right?  I interview graduates and hire those without degrees (but have certifications) as I find those without degrees are harder working than self centred college graduates.  Also if you are 16 and hate High School, then you should get your GED and get a job or enlist in the military.  The latter would be beneficial to the OP and his charges.

[Le Chuck]

Also if you are 16 and hate High School, then you should get your GED and get a job or enlist in the military.  The latter would be beneficial to the OP and his charges.

Trust me, as an US Army Officer who liaises regularly with my Canadian counterparts I can safely assure you that neither military is interested in GED/equivalent enlistees. 

While enlistment standards may have been relaxed in years past due to operational necessity this is no longer the case and enlistment goals are being met with well qualified motivated individuals who have the requisite educational background.   

I am sure that anyone with sufficient drive, motivation, and desire can make it without a paper education.  I am also sure that the military isn't interested in being the springboard for those who couldn't really hack highschool.  The days of "go to war or go to jail" are thankfully over.  Military service shouldn't be a back up plan, and anyone interested in military service would do well to try and accomplish all they can in the classroom prior to enlisting/commissioning to ensure that they are of greatest use to their chosen service.   

[pbj]

Sure, sure, but the military sure does a hell of a lot of recruitment from small towns and territories where the locals don't have many options.  My high school made every damn one of us take the ASVAB. 

Gets selective if you want to do anything besides be a human shield but let's not pretend they're only accepting college graduates.

[Le Chuck]

Sure, sure, but the military sure does a hell of a lot of recruitment from small towns and territories where the locals don't have many options.  My high school made every damn one of us take the ASVAB. 

Gets selective if you want to do anything besides be a human shield but let's not pretend they're only accepting college graduates.

That's fair, I'd be interested to know if the old HS Alma mater is still requiring the same.  And while the services do still technically accept HS diploma equivalency the slots of such are dwindling rapidly.  Any current serving US Soldier that has a GED but no additional education is very likely to be administratively separated during the next force reduction cut. 

To limit the derail all I'm saying is that if these kids have an inkling of interest in serving their country (or another country found due south of them) they need to stay in school to have any sort of real career. 

I think looking into trade programs might be a good alternative, I have some local friends who are fitters that earn close to what I do.  While the work isn't easy it is in high demand and they enjoy it.  Ditto some of the electricians I know.  There's something to be said about the apprenticeship programs that are out there.

Also, you said human shield and I couldn't help picturing South Park the movie.  Lulz. 

[dkersten]

Also if you are 16 and hate High School, then you should get your GED and get a job or enlist in the military.  The latter would be beneficial to the OP and his charges.

U.S. Army takes something like 6% GED's (the rest need high school diplomas), Air Force takes about the same, Marines and Navy take 1-2%.  Unless you can score crazy high on your tests, you aren't getting in with a GED.  Besides, nearly every high school dropout is trying to get away from authority, not add more to their lives.

That being said, if something happens in your life and you make some bad decisions and end up dropping out of high school, then do whatever you can to get your GED and if you can swing military, it will give you a better leg up than any other option available.  Just goes to show you how much more difficult you have made your life, and each option after your choice to drop out will require more and more work.

There are always exceptions.  The one thing I feel I was successful in as a father to my son was teaching him a good work ethic, and as soon as he pulled his head out of his ass and started applying that work ethic, he was suddenly an invaluable employee in what started as a minimum wage job.  Now he is a manager of that establishment (after a year) and the owner is looking to make him the youngest general manager in that organization (opening a new location soon and putting him in charge) with a salary of 62k per year.  He got there purely on the basis of working hard and doing what needed to be done, even if he wasn't getting paid to go the extra mile.  14 months after getting the job and now a few months after being made manager, his biggest gripe is the laziness of his employees and their willingness to get by doing as little work as possible.

The degree will get you in the door, but it is your work ethic that will keep you there and get you promotions.  If you don't have that degree, then you better know someone because business is all about people, and getting a good job is all about who you know.  If you don't know people, then be prepared to start at the bottom and put on a smile for getting a job doing the sh*t detail..

[Xiaou2]

Schooling doesnt prove character, drive, adaptability, attitude, nor work ethic.  It barely teaches you the ability to "Think" for oneself.

 But, because so many people are so Judgmental... its best to have the degree, else some zombie clown, will try to hold you down.

The thing is, if you're an employer and you have to pick from a selection of applicants, you don't have much to go by other than credentials and references.  And in the former department, if a person cannot even finish high school, are they someone I would want to hire?

Having a diploma demonstrates that a person can at least finish something, is probably trainable, and likely does not have the types of issues that leads one to dropping out.  Doesn't automatically mean they are going to be a good employee, but it does cut down on the perceived risk.

 Actually, it doesnt prove that.   People cheat in school all the time..   as well as teachers passing students... even though they didnt deserve to pass.

 Yes, Ive had to start out at the bottom many times.  And Ive worked my tail off to do the best I could.   As such, I have a long list of shining references, both on the job... as well as good personal relationships outside of work... and that counts a Lot for what people see on paper.

 They see a friendly guy with a nice smile... who can communicate professionally.  Whos responsible and a hard worker.  Who gets along fine with his co-workers.  Who often goes the extra mile, to do things right / on schedule.   Who dresses appropriately, has good hygiene, and is effectively early for any interview.

 While some do put on a good show... generally you can also read a persons expressions, body language, and even in their pace & tone of voice... to be able to tell what kind of person you are dealing with... in regards to work ethic.

 Dropping out for me, wasnt because I didnt want to complete.   It was because of hell in the homestead.   Everyone has their reasons... and we shouldnt make assumptions.   I personally tell them my situation.  People are pretty understanding.

 As Dkersten said, it can be about whom ya know as well.   Doesnt matter even if you are far more qualified than the next joe... if that said joe is a good friend of the boss..  you may be denied your spot.

[pbj]

If life has settled down, why not get the GED now?

 

[Vigo]

Having a diploma demonstrates that a person can at least finish something, is probably trainable, and likely does not have the types of issues that leads one to dropping out.  Doesn't automatically mean they are going to be a good employee, but it does cut down on the perceived risk.

 Actually, it doesnt prove that.   People cheat in school all the time..   as well as teachers passing students... even though they didnt deserve to pass.

Cheating in one class to pass it. Easily doable. Cheating to get through all your classes to graduate. Unlikely.

[dkersten]

Life is all about generalizations.  This is where stereotypes come from, and while some people get offended when they are stereotyped, it is usually because they fit the bill all too well.  When you don't know someone, you generalize, and odds are good you will be correct.  Employers seldom want to risk their company on the long odds.

Anyone can come up with exceptional cases, and unfortunately when people make bad choices they are often thinking about being an exception and not being like everyone else who made that bad choice.  Everyone wants to think they can do things later if they put their mind to it.  But a high school graduate didn't wait until later, they just did what had to be done.  That makes them (in general) better employees.

Nothing made me more angry than when my son's brand new step father told him, in a meeting with all his teachers, that not all dropouts turn into failures.  He used himself as an example.  Of course, he is now serving 15 years for trying to kill his wife (my ex, ie my son's mother).

I realize this is probably not what Ed wants to hear, but perhaps he can use this kind of info to help motivate his nephews into putting in the effort to lay a better foundation for their lives..

[shponglefan]

Schooling doesnt prove character, drive, adaptability, attitude, nor work ethic.  It barely teaches you the ability to "Think" for oneself.

 But, because so many people are so Judgmental... its best to have the degree, else some zombie clown, will try to hold you down.

The thing is, if you're an employer and you have to pick from a selection of applicants, you don't have much to go by other than credentials and references.  And in the former department, if a person cannot even finish high school, are they someone I would want to hire?

Having a diploma demonstrates that a person can at least finish something, is probably trainable, and likely does not have the types of issues that leads one to dropping out.  Doesn't automatically mean they are going to be a good employee, but it does cut down on the perceived risk.

 Actually, it doesnt prove that.   People cheat in school all the time..   as well as teachers passing students... even though they didnt deserve to pass.

It's about averages.  A person who graduates high school is less likely to have the issues that a dropout might.  For example, there are correlations between things like crime and substance abuse among dropouts. This doesn't mean every single high school graduate will be a great employee or every dropout is a drug using criminal, but one reduces the statistical risk by hiring accordingly.

[danny_galaga]

Hey, I'm a high school drop out and I turned out just fine 

[ark_ader]

Also if you are 16 and hate High School, then you should get your GED and get a job or enlist in the military.  The latter would be beneficial to the OP and his charges.

Trust me, as an US Army Officer who liaises regularly with my Canadian counterparts I can safely assure you that neither military is interested in GED/equivalent enlistees. 

While enlistment standards may have been relaxed in years past due to operational necessity this is no longer the case and enlistment goals are being met with well qualified motivated individuals who have the requisite educational background.   

I am sure that anyone with sufficient drive, motivation, and desire can make it without a paper education.  I am also sure that the military isn't interested in being the springboard for those who couldn't really hack highschool.  The days of "go to war or go to jail" are thankfully over.  Military service shouldn't be a back up plan, and anyone interested in military service would do well to try and accomplish all they can in the classroom prior to enlisting/commissioning to ensure that they are of greatest use to their chosen service.

Probably one of the reasons why I didn't opt for OTS at the time.  Most likely that will change in the next two years when they raise the OTS entry at 50+.  We should have boots on the ground in Syria when the next guy is sworn in.