What killed the Arcade for you?

[CheffoJeffo]

Bad Dudes (1988)

You totally left out Karnov.

And Rygar.

I said that the success of SF2 resulted in ops, who were already hanging on by the skin of their teeth, feeling like they had to buy every new game that came out "just in case it was the next SF2". A clearly unsustainable business model after 1983.

What's worse than this, is that everybody who did NOT jump on that ship thinking that most of those games are pretty similar (which is true) lost a LOT of customers due to them seeking out "the next big thing". Why stay here and play plain Jane Street Fighter 2, when there is HYPER Street Fighter 2. Or Super Street Fighter 2, or Super Street Fighter 2 Hyper edition.

Fair enough.

[Malenko]

Bad Dudes (1988)

You totally left out Karnov.

And Rygar.

like I said , subjective. I actually pulled Rygar off the list and while Karnov was the first boss in Bad Dudes, I dont really think his game was "classic" =). Im not worried about adding games to the list, the original poster said name ONE game, as if there werent any.

[Donkbaca]

I don't consider those games classics.  I stand firm in my belief bubble.  you cannot pop it.

[Malenko]

I don't consider those games classics.  I stand firm in my belief bubble.  you cannot pop it.

I'll trim the list to the most famous 9 (IMO)

You saying that :

Arkanoid (1986)
Contra (1987)
Double Dragon (1987)
Golden Axe (1989)
Out Run (1986)
Raiden (1990)
Rampage (1986)
Smash TV (1990)
Tetris (1988)

NONE of those are classics? I mean I dont even remember what Tetris was. Who ever heard of Contra?

/lame you cant admit you were mistaken or just made a bad point you thought was valid at the time. Kinda glad you never posted at the fort now.

[Vigo]

I don't consider those games classics.  I stand firm in my belief bubble.  you cannot pop it.

NONE of those are classics? I mean I dont even remember what Tetris was. Who ever heard of Contra?

/lame you cant admit you were mistaken or just made a bad point you thought was valid at the time. Kinda glad you never posted at the fort now.

I'm not disagreeing with your overall statement, but for the simple sake of arguement Tetris and Contra were not classics because of the arcade. You can thank the NES for immortalizing those two.

[Donkbaca]

I would say R-Type, 1987 should be on your list too

My larger point was that when people say "fighters ended the arcade"  they act like there were all these great games and that SF2 somehow changed the types of games that were made.  My point is that most of games people consider to be classics were made WAY before SF2 hit the arcade scene people stopped making donkey kongs and pac-whatevers well before 1992.  

Lets look closer at your list and see how these types of games faired in the SF2 era.  

Arkanoid was just a rehash of the 1970's breakout games.  It is not a classic.  Nobody cares about it.  Know anybody that has an arkanoid cab?

Contra, I would argue is much more popular as a console game then an arcade game, same for Tetris.  I personally, don't consider them arcade classics

Double Dragon, I will say IS an arcade classic, but beat em ups were all over the arcades in the 90's, as were the hack and slash type games like Golden Axe and SHMUPS like Raiden.   So you can't say, "because of SF2, there were no more beat em ups, or hack and slashes or SHMUPS"  that's just not true.  What IS different, during the fighter era is the lack of 1p, play for high score type games, which is what I was talking about when I made my comment, and those died WAY before Sf2 ruled the arcade scene.  

I still disagree with the notion that it was fighters that bankrupted arcades.  When Super hyperfighting chamionship edition version 2, the rainbow hack comes out, OPS, at least the one at the arcades I went to, just swapped boards and the marquee out of an old machine.  

My story as to why they died is this:

The thought was that people went to arcades to play games they couldn't play elsewhere, most people assumed that people liked arcade games because the graphics and sound were better.  Popular arcade games were getting better and better ports to home consoles. The industry, losing its advantage on graphics and sound feels threatened, thinks the only way it can compete is to give the customer something they can't get at home.  

Around this time, Daytona becomes the highest grossing arcade game ever.

The industry puts two and two together:  The highest grossing game is a dedicated racing cab, which is something you can't really replicate at home.  The industry goes bananas with all these strange dedicated cabs; driving cabs, rhthym cabs, etc.  When a new game comes out, its not just a simple board and marquee swap, now its the cabinet itself that is important to the experience, so Ops have to invest in all new cabs to have the latest thing.  This led to gimmicky games that were expensive to play.

The industry miscalculated.  In retrospect, we didn't just go to arcades to play games, we went to play games against our fellow geeks and socialize.  Whether that competition took place in the form of the high score on galaga, or most wins in a row on MKII, its the same spirit.  

It was the gimmicky dedicated cabs that killed the arcades

[Vigo]

It was the gimmicky dedicated cabs that killed the arcades

If I had to sum up why I abandoned the arcades in one sentence, this would be it. But I don't think that players disliked the gimmicky cabs, I think it was that to support the cost of these cabs, arcades needed to raise the prices. Nobody wanted to pay a price that went from a standard credit being $0.25 to $0.50 to $0.75 and then $1.00 per game at the demise of the arcade. I have seen these gimmicky cabs cost anywhere up to $3.00 per credit.

The added cost outweighed the heightened experience.

[CheffoJeffo]

Arkanoid was just a rehash of the 1970's breakout games.  It is not a classic.  Nobody cares about it.  Know anybody that has an arkanoid cab?

Yep ... bunches of them. Myself included.

Add to that the degree to which Arkanoid was bootlegged -- I can't think of a single game with more board/pinout variants.

[yotsuya]

It was the gimmicky dedicated cabs that killed the arcades

I thought it was the airplanes that got him?

[Howard_Casto]

[Yeah, why is there so much hate towards the fighter games?

I'll take a stab at this:

1) Because many people credit the genre with ending the arcade experience.
2) Becuase a lot of kids from that generation think this was "the golden era of the arcade" when really it was a resurgence of something prior.
3) Because those games suck compared to the old school arcade games, they weren't much different than similar games that were being played on computers or consoles at the time.

However if you look at something like Ms. Pacman, it's so unique and original. Nothing during it's time could emulate that game other than the cab itself. So it stands on it's own merits very highly. Fighter games were being played on PS1 in the 90's for a lot less money. They were unoriginal and not that special. Two guys fighting each other? or a crazy pie shaped creature eating dots trying to avoid crazy dudes with sheets over their heads?
No contest on all fronts.

All good points, but I think the reason why people hate the fighter games the most, is because they were the last real games that didnt have a gimmick, that died with the arcades themselves. There were many other factors that people already mentioned as to the reason why arcades died out. I remember asking an arcade operator here in San Diego when he said he was going to close down, I asked why, and he said that the electric bill for the place was too damn high. There are a bunch of factors why arcades died, but I doubt the fighter genre was the reason.

Going to the last point, I know Ill probably get reemed for this because most of the people on here are old(no offense guys) but some of the classics suck, and the only reason you like them is the same reason I like the fighter games:they were popular when you were young. Like someone else mentioned, the classics only had you try to beat the others score. Some unamed initials, sitting there, mocking you while you try to get the higher score in there so you can be at the top of list of other suckers OR you can actaully watch as your skills break down some other punk kid and they walk away going to get more quarters because they think they can beat you. And of course, you know, that they cant, and its so enjoyable. I imagine the feeling you get is akin to drinking unicorn blood. Or something close at least.

Pong was the first fighter

Yes, yes it was..... and this is why a MKified version of pong was included in Mortal Kombat 3!  

[CheffoJeffo]

I still disagree with the notion that it was fighters that bankrupted arcades.  When Super hyperfighting chamionship edition version 2, the rainbow hack comes out, OPS, at least the one at the arcades I went to, just swapped boards and the marquee out of an old machine.  

You still don't understand what I said.

I said that ops felt compelled to buy any new game in the hopes that it would be the next big money maker like SF2 was.

It was not limited to fighters and did, indeed, include the expensive "gimmicky" cabs that you blame.

We should be also be reasonable about the cost of the non-gimmicky games -- new boards typically cost far more than the rest of the cabinet.

[emphatic]

I'm not seeing Flying Shark, Black Tiger or Rolling Thunder on that list of classics.

Also, gimmicky games can go to hell.

[Howard_Casto]

I think a lot of these arguments and the best arcade generation can be solved by simply taking a step back....

I see people bashing the 90's but they are referring to games and trends in the LATE 90's.
I also see people defending the 80's by using games in the LATE 80's.  

The late 80's to early 90's was the best period.  I think we could all agree on that.  

The early 80's weren't that great... it basically consisted of 30,000 space shooters with no personality and an occasional gem like pacman, which then gets destroyed by numerous clones and sequels.  The same thing can be said for the late 90's when every other cabinet is a lame racing sim or the 17th revision of a fighting game that looks like every other fighting game.  

Basically at some point the industry starts from scratch and lots of new ideas come out of it and it's good.  Then we go through a period of everybody running those ideas into the ground.  Still happens on consoles to this day.  

[Donkbaca]

Dammit Cheffo.  I do not want to agree with you, but you are making it so hard.


Cheffo's point:

I said that ops felt compelled to buy any new game in the hopes that it would be the next big money maker like SF2 was...

The Donk's take:

...ops felt compelled to buy any new game in the hopes that it would be the next big money maker like Daytona was...


Seeing as how both games were contemporaneous, we are taking about the same Ops at the same time, doing the same stupid things.

I'll agree with you about the boards being the most costly things, but it seems to me that a new MvC board would be significantly cheaper then a brand new Hydro Thunder Cab.

I do disagree that arkanoid is a classic though.  Won't budge from it.  Its got a lot of what I think of as classic-y features: its one player, its got simple controls, it was all over the place, its recognizable.  But to me its a rehash of the 1970's breakout games, and I don't feel right calling it a classic when in my mind its a ripoff...

[saint]

I would say R-Type, 1987 should be on your list too

My larger point was that when people say "fighters ended the arcade"  they act like there were all these great games and that SF2 somehow changed the types of games that were made.  My point is that most of games people consider to be classics were made WAY before SF2 hit the arcade scene people stopped making donkey kongs and pac-whatevers well before 1992.  

Two points:

1. From my perspective, I didn't say that fighters ended the arcade, I said they ended the arcade for me. As in, I didn't enjoy fighters.

2. It wasn't when they were made that mattered, it was that they were there for me to play. When games I considered good were crowded out by an endless array of fighters (and redemption) games, I lost interest.  I'd happily play Donkey Kong, Xevious, Chiller, Jump Bug, Mappy, BagMan, Tempest, Star Wars, Frogger, Kangaroo, Quartet, Gauntlet, etc. all day long.

[saint]

Arkanoid was just a rehash of the 1970's breakout games.  It is not a classic.  Nobody cares about it.  Know anybody that has an arkanoid cab?

KLOV:
http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=6916

Very Common - There are 255 known instances of this machine owned by Arkanoid collectors who are members.

Wanted - Popular - There are 20 VAPS members currently looking for Arkanoid.

This game ranks a 87 on a scale out of 100 (100 = most often seen, 1=least common) in popularity based on census ownership records.

This game ranks a 44 on a scale out of 100 (100 = most often wanted, 1=least common) in popularity based on census want list records.

Classic is in the eye of the beholder

[Vigo]

I really don't think that SF2 should be under the gun at all, weren't ops always looking for the next big thing? Love em or hate em, SF2 ushered an era of the arcade. SF2 should be considered nothing other than a beacon of what a good arcade game in the 90's is. Sure, fighters were soon a saturated trend, but a cost effective one that breathed some life back into the industry, Unlike the $1.00 per credit leviathans that soon took up all the real estate. I really don't think Neo Geo would be the success it was without fighters.

If I have to lay blame on SF2, it because of all the "horrible conversions" I have never seen so many good machines turn prey to any game more than SF2. (Although, I remember arkanoid being a big offender as well...)

 

[Thenasty]

"Insert Coin to CONTINUE .... " that killed the Arcade for me.

[DNA Dan]

Two points:

1. From my perspective, I didn't say that fighters ended the arcade, I said they ended the arcade for me. As in, I didn't enjoy fighters.

2. It wasn't when they were made that mattered, it was that they were there for me to play. When games I considered good were crowded out by an endless array of fighters (and redemption) games, I lost interest.  I'd happily play Donkey Kong, Xevious, Chiller, Jump Bug, Mappy, BagMan, Tempest, Star Wars, Frogger, Kangaroo, Quartet, Gauntlet, etc. all day long.

+1 Whether it was the fighting scene or the gimmicky cabs, bottom line is when I walked into an arcade there just weren't games I wanted to play anymore.

"Insert coin to continue" - The person who developed this model of "time" or "health that counts down" should be given a slow death. I want my 3 lives with no limits on how much skill I can put on a quarter.

[Malenko]

I would say R-Type, 1987 should be on your list too

Arkanoid was just a rehash of the 1970's breakout games.  It is not a classic.  Nobody cares about it.  Know anybody that has an arkanoid cab?

Contra, I would argue is much more popular as a console game then an arcade game, same for Tetris.  I personally, don't consider them arcade classics

Double Dragon, I will say IS an arcade classic, but beat em ups were all over the arcades in the 90's, as were the hack and slash type games like Golden Axe and SHMUPS like Raiden.   So you can't say, "because of SF2, there were no more beat em ups, or hack and slashes or SHMUPS"  that's just not true.  What IS different, during the fighter era is the lack of 1p, play for high score type games, which is what I was talking about when I made my comment, and those died WAY before Sf2 ruled the arcade scene.

Firstly, I never said anything about anything, just listed classic games from your pre-determined era, with that said....
Contra and Tetris were popular enough in the arcade to warrant the console release. I didnt know R Type even was an arcade game for a very long time, I thought it an NES game like Life Force.  So now I have to name a game YOU consider "classic" in a 6 year span that isnt a fighter, beat'em up, hack n slash, or shmup?  How about you DQ any game with a monitor and buttons too?

I agree that Fighters started dominating the market, but you cant dismiss the sheer number of really good non-fighting games released in the time frame you mentioned. And Arkanoid is one of my all time favorite games and I'd love to have a dedicated cab.

To call it a rip off of break out seems a bit much, enemies,power ups, warps, etc its like saying Mortal Kombat is just a rip off of Karate Champ.

There isnt ONE thing that killed arcades, it was a multitude of things. Consoles, Ops trying to find the next big hit, cost, people not going, etc And there was a shift in the arcade from single player experiences to two player or more exeriences; and it makes sense if you think about it. 25 cents for 1 guy to shoot aliens, 1 player at a time, or two players plunkin down 50 cents to play at the same time. I think it was the need/want to charge 50 cents or more per credit that really hurt them.

@DNADan
as for $$$ for time; it was great on play choice 10 cabs, you could play like 4 or 5 games if you were terrible enough, $$ for health I believe Gauntlet started that circa 1985

[DNA Dan]

@DNADan
as for $$$ for time; it was great on play choice 10 cabs, you could play like 4 or 5 games if you were terrible enough, $$ for health I believe Gauntlet started that circa 1985

It's cool to check out multiple games, but if you're a regular player and you're good, it's just a ripoff on your skills. I think that's why I never really played play choice cabs.

[Donkbaca]

 

I didnt know R Type even was an arcade game for a very long time, I thought it an NES game like Life Force. 

I just lost a little bit of respect for you on that one.  You mean life force released in the arcades as the sequel to Gradius, which was released also released in the arcades?

I suppose classic is in the eye of the beholder, so I won't push the point on arkanoid too hard.  Maybe that would be a good thread,  Arcade Classics.

If you want an arkanoid, they aren't hard to find, you can get the boards on ebay for 50 -60 bucks, and seeing as how they were mostly on generic cabs, you could have one pretty cheap if you want one. 

I guess the point is what killed arcades for you.  For me it was the gimicky cabs and redemption crap.  For people that say SF2, I just don't connect with that because arcades were pretty much dead in my town for a few years before SF2 came out.

[Malenko]

Just cause you think Im bustin your balls today......

And Arkanoid is one of my all time favorite games and I'd love to have a dedicated cab.

If you want an arkanoid, they aren't hard to find, you can get the boards on ebay for 50 -60 bucks, and seeing as how they were mostly on generic cabs, you could have one pretty cheap if you want one. 

dedicated....generic...whatev,lol  In time I prolly will make a bartop or spinner MAME cab.

As for R-Type, I was like 7 in a small town in the sticks and Al Gore didnt invent the internet yet, so cut me a little slack.

[Bootay]

I knew R-Type, Gradius and Life Force were originally arcade games, but let's face it. These games were more popular in Japan. I never seen a Gradius cab before, nor have I ever seen a Life Force. R-Type I seen here and there, but it really wasn't a very popular choice. I am not saying that I didn't like them, I am saying that most ops didn't carry those games in my area. Not sure about the rest of the USA. But in my part of Michigan they were pretty scarce to non-existent, which is probably the case where Malenko is from.

As for PBJs comments on Vs.: Yea I never understood why people even bothered. Back in those days EVERY person I knew owned a NES. If I ever felt the need to play Duck Hunt or Super Mario Bros. I would just go to their house and play for free/unlimited time.

[scofthe7seas]

like I said , subjective. I actually pulled Rygar off the list and while Karnov was the first boss in Bad Dudes, I dont really think his game was "classic" =). Im not worried about adding games to the list, the original poster said name ONE game, as if there werent any.

Hahaha I absolutely was not being serious about suggesting Karnov as a classic game.

[yotsuya]

I thought the gangs of juvenile delinquents that took over the arcades led to the downfall.

[Mikezilla]

I liked your King Kong reference.

[Bootay]

I thought the gangs of juvenile delinquents that took over the arcades led to the downfall.

This actually was the case for a couple of arcades in my area. One of them was so bad with drug dealers a squad car was almost always parked in the driveway. Come to think of it, maybe the cop was there buying drugs too. LOL

[TOK]

The late 80's to early 90's was the best period.  I think we could all agree on that.  

Uh, no. In fact, no doesn't begin to describe the amount of no...   Defender, Donkey Kong, Moon Patrol, Spy Hunter, Robotron, Space Invaders, Asteroids, Centipede, Tron, Tempest, Star Wars, Q*Bert, Frogger, Burgertime. I could name 50 more great early 80's games no problem.

That time ruled. If you weren't born, still crapping your pants, or even in a position to be asking your parents if you could play a game before 1984, you just have no idea what you're even saying.

[scofthe7seas]

I could name 50 more great early 80's games no problem.

I call shenanigans.

[Donkbaca]

moon patrol?  Centipede, I was fired up wehn I got my trackball,  gonna play me some centipede, then 3 minutes later I was over it.  C'mon, frogger? Seriously?  Do you actually play these games?  That being said, the early 80's had the pac man craze and galaga, there are some WAY WAY better games then centipede and moon patrol

I think the late 80's had stinker games. 

I would say 81-6 and 91-96 pretty much has most everything I am interested in playing.

[saint]

moon patrol?  Centipede, I was fired up wehn I got my trackball,  gonna play me some centipede, then 3 minutes later I was over it.  C'mon, frogger? Seriously?  Do you actually play these games?  That being said, the early 80's had the pac man craze and galaga, there are some WAY WAY better games then centipede and moon patrol

I think the late 80's had stinker games. 

I would say 81-6 and 91-96 pretty much has most everything I am interested in playing.

Centipede and Moon Patrol would be on my classics list.

[Donkbaca]

Call them whatever you want. They are a snore.

[TOK]

I could name 50 more great early 80's games no problem.

I call shenanigans.

Just look at KLOV's top 100 list. Almost half of them are from the period of 80-83, and there are still plenty that could be added. Look at the top 10 voted by readers and collectors.

I guess it all comes down to what you grew up with. Fighting games were OK (I even own a JAMMA fighter with a few boards), but don't get even 1/10th of the play the classics like Robotron and DK get.

[Donkbaca]

The KLOV list is made by a bunch of folks who believe that arcades died with the leaf switch.

I think the best way to answer that is figure out what gets played most on cabs.  I mean on a mame cab you have competition from every game of every genre.  I bet moon patrol doesn't get played a whole lot. 

From trolling around here for a while, I would say top games for sure are:

Robotron
Asteroids (deluxe)
Defender
Joust
Stargate
Donkey Kong
Ms. Pacman
Tempest

New generation

Turtles
Xmen
MK 1-3
SF - all of them except the 3d ones
Bust-a-move.


Those are the ones where people are like, "I can't wait to finsh my cab so I can play some xxxx"

nobody ever says, I can't wait to finish my cab to play some arkanoid....

[Malenko]

I cant wait to build my spinnerMAME cab so I can play some arkanoid.


On my cabs, my most played by others are Killer Instinct and Ms.PacMan. Buddy from work came over today and now he wants to make a MAME cab so he can play the Killer Instincts and Mortal Kombats

Im having a house warming on Saturday, I'll reset the play counters and let you know what they play (if they play anything, its mostly my GFs friends, lol)


its just so funny that I agree with DoDonBaka so much but hes so hostile, its hilarious

[Bootay]

I like Moon Patrol and Frogger and would also consider them classics right up there with Pac-Man and Galaga. But I also was old enough to go to the arcades on my own without parents when those games were new. So I guess that's what this debate boils down to...age. older people find Galaga, Pac-Man, Centipede, Moon Patrol, etc. classic, and younger people think Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter 2 and Killer Instinct are classics. I love pretty much ALL games. I am a game addict so I think they are all classics. I never stopped going to the arcades...I still go when I find one. And yes I will even play the $1 gimmicky games at Dave & Busters when I go which isn't often.

[TOK]

The KLOV list is made by a bunch of folks who believe that arcades died with the leaf switch.

Its also made of thousands of people who buy and restore classic games, yet you just completely disregard their opinions because they aren't aligned with yours.




 

[Nephasth]

I cant wait to build my spinnerMAME cab so I can play some arkanoid.

Love Arkanoid. Putting mine together was the first time I encountered the inside of an arcade machine. It was fun to get working and it's even more fun to play.

[yotsuya]

I thought the gangs of juvenile delinquents that took over the arcades led to the downfall.

This actually was the case for a couple of arcades in my area. One of them was so bad with drug dealers a squad car was almost always parked in the driveway. Come to think of it, maybe the cop was there buying drugs too. LOL

No lie. Someone here from the UK posted in another thread how the kids who started to hang out at the arcades made it dangerous. I wonder how many others have the same story?