What killed the Arcade for you?

[Marcade]

Alright settle down, I know arcades will never die in our heads, and gamerooms are forever but lets be honest for a second, apart from a few wonderful, spots arcades are dead.

What for you was the biggest factor, as reading video game history etc everything seems to be aimed squarely at the home consoles, and for me personally at least, this just wasn't the case.

IMHO I felt that greed was the biggest factor, that is to say I didn't feel like these places were fun and for me anymore, with every video game being replaced by a jackpot machine or ticket spewing money grabber. Each new machine in place felt like another stab at tacking my money away and providing very little back.
The video game machines started charging more, this is something that I think was a bigger hit to us in the UK than in the states. Americans had a quater as the standard, which went up to 50c then 75 to a dollar etc, but ours seemed to jump from 10p to 50p to a pound, basically its like if pacman was a quater then ridge racer was two dollars. I Remember thinking that that it was now ten times the price for a go, so I wouldn't part with my money, if a machine was 50p I'd have a go, then follow that go with another, but a pound a time i just couldn't justify, even then it very much felt like just give us your money as quickly as possible and then leave.

At the high cost rate you couldn't justify learning the skills to be any good, my nan bought me Time crisis on the PSone and I remember being so grateful as I wouldn't have to keep feeding it... but if it was slightly cheaper I would have had no problems justifying the outlay.
The cost jumped, especially considering we started at 10p... it didn't seem to go 20, 30, 40, but I jumped 30 50 100, as a kid with limited funds theres no way you are going to put that sort of money into a new game you know nothing about that has a steep learning curve (sega's time traveller for example)

So that's my opinion, not ground breaking but I feel that the fun was lost and the money grabbers came in, so instead of making money they turned over for a quick quid and folded.

[emphatic]

For me it was the brawlers and Vs. Fighter games. I've never liked this type of games, so it I took a long break from playing arcade games until I saw titles like Metal Slug, Viewpoint and Strikers 1945+ (all NEO GEO titles). But it never came close to the rush of playing quality titles like Black Tiger, Rygar, Flying Shark etc.

Of course, there are skilled players who can master Final Fight or the Street Fighter games, but it wasn't ever for me. Also, pinball games and racing games started to take up more space, and for me those type of games are a bit gimmicky. *ducks for cover* 

[Marcade]

The fighters game thing for me too actually! It links to my post to though really, I remember looking at the likes of street fighter with its many " two world warriors hyper turbo tournament editions" and seeing just how big the learning curve was of learning all the moves compared to the rising costs. If it had been 20p a pop you'd give it a go, and I do remember finding some like that and pouring money in, but others were a 50p and a pound, and for a minute fight or so that I was pretty much guaranteed to loose it was too great a risk to feed in my precious coins! This seemed to be particularly the case around the time virtua fighter came out, looked great but I wasn't going to waste the cash needed to have fun and not just get my butt kicked!

[CheffoJeffo]

Street Fighter 2 killed the arcade. 

[Marcade]

Street Fighter 2 killed the arcade. 

now now, play nice 

[Malenko]

I stopped going when they closed their doors.

[CheffoJeffo]

Street Fighter 2 killed the arcade. 

now now, play nice 

SF2 resulted in a resurgence, but also created a business model that was unsustainable and hastened the demise of the remaining arcades.

IMO, the arcade collapsed (initially) under its own weight. There were eleventy brazillion new games coming out every month, people got bored and games had to be rotated out before they paid for themselves.

This happened around the same time that home consoles were making inroads and around the same time that the "Insert coin to continue" model arose, but I think the reality is that the market was flooded with games (most with little or no originality) and ops couldn't recoup the investment from cabs before people got bored and wanted to play something else.

[Marcade]

Street Fighter 2 killed the arcade. 

now now, play nice 

SF2 resulted in a resurgence, but also created a business model that was unsustainable and hastened the demise of the remaining arcades.

IMO, the arcade collapsed (initially) under its own weight. There were eleventy brazillion new games coming out every month, people got bored and games had to be rotated out before they paid for themselves.

This happened around the same time that home consoles were making inroads and around the same time that the "Insert coin to continue" model arose, but I think the reality is that the market was flooded with games (most with little or no originality) and ops couldn't recoup the investment from cabs before people got bored and wanted to play something else.

which left companies with the challenge of "innovating" meaning pouring a load of cash into one machine to try to draw back the crowds, meaning a very risky business model, coupled with the fact the same companies could develop for the home market...

[saint]

Home gaming was a big factor of course, but what killed the spirit of the arcade to me was the age of Fighters taking over the arcades. I didn't mind the arcades having them of course, but when the population density of fighters vs classic arcade games got out of whack arcades lost the fun for me. Also redemption crap. Certain a winner for businesses, but an arcade full of mostly redemption makes me sad.

PacMan, Tempest, StarWars, Mappy, Kangaroo, Frogger, Gauntlet, JumpBug, Xevious, Zaxxon, 194x, Bagman, Chiller... That's an arcade to me.

[TOK]

A chick actually wanted to have sex with me. That was great for like 25 years, but I think I'm back to the point where I'd rather play Donkey Kong again.  

[spoot]

Cost of the games kinda killed it for me as I had almost no income at the time.  Now, there simply aren't any around here worth going too.....all redemption crap.

[Donkbaca]

It's funny, for me, fighters are what defined the arcade experience. People putting their quarter up for next, crowds gathered around the machine, people selling secrets printed from the internet. I think Cheffos assessment is wrong, MK2 and SFA 2/3 were staples at my local arcade for a couple of years.  

What killed it, in my opinion, was Daytona 2. The greatest grossing game of all time brought in expensive, dedicated cabs that ops couldnt just swap boards out for. All of a sudden arcades were full of driving cabs, waverunner simulations and snowboard games. Games went from 25 cents per play to 50 cents to start, 25 to continue in the fighter era, to a dollar per play in the fancy cab era. That's what killed arcades. Expnesive, gimmicky games on expensive dedicated cabs

[DataWest]

I stopped going when they closed their doors.

Same here. My local pizza inn was owned by a guy that loved arcades. He had a dedicated game room that was the size of most typical arcades attached to the restaurant. I've never been in another pizza inn set up like his was. He had all my favorites; MK1 and 2, metal slug, battletoads, defender, etc.

When he sold the place they soon went out of business cause the pizza was horrible. Now Tornado Terrys is the last game in town.

At some point I still want to go to Japan to experience their arcades. Apparently there are still a ton over there that are great.     

[Hoopz]

There are people today (young children and teenagers) whose sole memory of arcades is redemption games or 95% redemption games.  To them, that's what an arcade is.  

Every thought of why arcades died is one step in the evolution of the arcade from classics, to shooters, home consoles, then fighters, simulation games, redemption, etc.  As the times changed, so did the business models and economies of scale for home entertainment relative to arcades.  All of those things had an impact on the evolution of the arcade.  

That being said, I'll +1 to TOK and PBJ.  Girls... 

[yotsuya]

I'll also add to the 'Them going away crowd'. I remember as a kid going to some great pizza places with full arcades inside. There was a Peter Piper Pizza on the west side of town that had the equivilent of a full-sized arcade in the middle of the building. I used to love going there because the arcade itself was up on a raised platform, almost like an enclosed stage. It felt like kind of a big deal to me as a kid.

I went back to that same pizza place almost a year ago. The stage is gone, along with the games. Now there's a giant jungle gym/play area, a bunch of ticket redemption machines, and a few mini rides. Bleagh.

[Mikezilla]

It's funny, for me, fighters are what defined the arcade experience. People putting their quarter up for next, crowds gathered around the machine, people selling secrets printed from the internet. I think Cheffos assessment is wrong, MK2 and SFA 2/3 were staples at my local arcade for a couple of years.  

What killed it, in my opinion, was Daytona 2. The greatest grossing game of all time brought in expensive, dedicated cabs that ops couldnt just swap boards out for. All of a sudden arcades were full of driving cabs, waverunner simulations and snowboard games. Games went from 25 cents per play to 50 cents to start, 25 to continue in the fighter era, to a dollar per play in the fancy cab era. That's what killed arcades. Expnesive, gimmicky games on expensive dedicated cabs

See, Im with Donk on this. When I was a kid, the fighters were king of the arcades. I remember being in 5th grade when SF2 came out, and people used to talk about it, how to do combos, and things like that. Then Mortal Kombat hit. Everyone was trying to do Fatalities, and how peoples parents wouldnt let them play it cause of the blood, and people were reading magazines *gasp* to figure out how to do all the moves. I used to love putting my quarter up on the marquee to hold my spot, and then beat the crap out of all the other challengers that dared to try to beat me. Same with Marvel super heroes, Marvel vs Capcom/2 etc. I also loved the multi-player games as well, Xmen, Simpsons, TMNT etc.  I agree with Donk though, the big expensive, dedicated cabs that he mentioned are what killed it. If I was a parent, I wouldnt want to give my kid 20 bucks to go to the arcade to maybe play for about 10 mins just because the games were so expensive. The only reason people go to Dave and Busters, is because adults have more money that they can spend on stuff like that. Im with all of you about the stupid redemption crap though.   Home consoles for sure, and of course, girls.

[DNA Dan]

Lol.. Got a pretty good chuckle out of this thread so far    

There are several factors, but mostly not really having the time to go to an arcade in general. I mean growing up there's a lot of things that take time from adolescence. Learning to drive, hanging with friends (Extracurricular activities  ) doing good in school, planning for college, GOING to college. There's also several reasons for the decline of arcades in general. Although that isn't the OP's question, I'll throw it out there as simply, "The declining value of a quarter." I mean who whips out their wallet, then puts a dollar in a bill validator to play an arcade game? Just isn't for me.

[yotsuya]

I used to love putting my quarter up on the marquee to hold my spot, and then beat the crap out of all the other challengers that dared to try to beat me.

My wife laughs at me when I do this with my cab. I tell her it's tradition.

[scofthe7seas]

I think there are a lot of factors involved in why arcades died out. The consoles are a big part of it, but they don’t beat the experience, and not everybody could afford the consoles/games when you just needed a few quarters to play a game in the way that everybody truly knew it should be played. Even though the street fighter games did make a huge resurgence in arcade popularity, you have to admit, it brought a different crowd. There was a sense of comradery back in the old days (mostly) whereas the fighter game generation… brought in a ton of ---meecrob--- bags. Arcades started dying with people not attending them, exponentially. The less people a person saw in there, the less they would want to stand out by being one. Then, there is the price of some of the games. Bleh. 2 dollars for one full game of Blitz, per person?? Bull-donkey.
Although I DO like fighters (I have to disagree about final fight being included in this, Aliens vs predator sparked a whole new interest in arcade games, for me) it was the sheer volume of them, that killed it for me. I was into fighters big time, practicing, like everyone else. Learning all the moves. Half way into Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3, which has like a bazillion characters, I said. “NO. ENOUGH.” I just couldn’t learn all the moves for that many characters. Maybe I shouldn’t have tried it with so many, but it was a habit I formed when playing a lot of the smaller character based fighters. (who doesn’t know all the moves for original street fighter 2?)

[bobotech]

I was a huge arcade fan in the '80s.  I loved having my mom take me to the arcade to play all the classic early '80s games.   I used to spend all my allowance back then on those games.  I still played them after I graduated in 85 but not as much.  I did play at the arcade at the Post Mall in Orange, CT.  Saw my first Dragon's Lair in that mall.  Around 87-88 I got married and my time in the arcade really started to dwindle.

Then came the fighter genre.  I just quit playing at that point.  I did not like the fighting game much at all back then.  I did love the racing genre and enjoyed how the racing games got more and more 3d oriented and fun.  

They did just get too damned expensive though.  And then by the mid-later '90s, the home video game experience almost totally faithfully replicated the arcade experience.  Why bother going to the arcade when you could play the game at home with nearly no difference in game play.  

I think arcades are dead for the same reasons why movie theaters are starting to die off, the home experience is replicating the theater experience much better that it used to for a reasonable price.  I have a 65 inch DLP tv that cost me 250 dollars, a nice 7.1 receiver 200 dollars, nice speakers (trade), and so on.  I don't need to go to the theaters to enjoy a movie anymore.  Same with arcade games, the difference between the home and arcade versions is blurred to nearly nothing.

Compare the 2600 version of donkey kong to the arcade version.  

[clutch]

I used to love putting my quarter up on the marquee to hold my spot, and then beat the crap out of all the other challengers that dared to try to beat me.

My wife laughs at me when I do this with my cab. I tell her it's tradition.

Kind of the same thing for me and Pac-Man.  People would put their quarters up on the machine because they wanted to play next but I could play for a very long time.  It was a feeling of empowerment. 

[SNAAKE]

local arcade shut down..thats what killed it for me lol

I was still going every friday and whenever I had the time. wasn't some ordinary arcade either. its....THE arcade..one and only China Town Fair

[yotsuya]

Interesting enough, Snaake mentioning ChinaTown Fair reminded me of that article someposted here about its closing. I Googled it and found another article that had some interesting insight that might be relevant to this conversation.

http://nyconvergence.com/2011/03/chinatown-fair-gaming-arcade-closed.html

My first thought: "$10,000 a piece???"

[SNAAKE]

that article is BS lol..

I personally know CEN. he didnt buy anything. he's holding on the cabinets for now until next level is ready. then they'll probably sell most of the cabinets and only keep the ones making money(like sf4 AE).


PS: I am trying to buy that cvs2 cabinet

[CheffoJeffo]

It's funny, for me, fighters are what defined the arcade experience. People putting their quarter up for next, crowds gathered around the machine, people selling secrets printed from the internet. I think Cheffos assessment is wrong, MK2 and SFA 2/3 were staples at my local arcade for a couple of years.  

What killed it, in my opinion, was Daytona 2. The greatest grossing game of all time brought in expensive, dedicated cabs that ops couldnt just swap boards out for. All of a sudden arcades were full of driving cabs, waverunner simulations and snowboard games. Games went from 25 cents per play to 50 cents to start, 25 to continue in the fighter era, to a dollar per play in the fancy cab era. That's what killed arcades. Expnesive, gimmicky games on expensive dedicated cabs

See, Im with Donk on this. When I was a kid, the fighters were king of the arcades. I remember being in 5th grade when SF2 came out, and people used to talk about it, how to do combos, and things like that. Then Mortal Kombat hit. Everyone was trying to do Fatalities, and how peoples parents wouldnt let them play it cause of the blood, and people were reading magazines *gasp* to figure out how to do all the moves. I used to love putting my quarter up on the marquee to hold my spot, and then beat the crap out of all the other challengers that dared to try to beat me. Same with Marvel super heroes, Marvel vs Capcom/2 etc. I also loved the multi-player games as well, Xmen, Simpsons, TMNT etc.  I agree with Donk though, the big expensive, dedicated cabs that he mentioned are what killed it. If I was a parent, I wouldnt want to give my kid 20 bucks to go to the arcade to maybe play for about 10 mins just because the games were so expensive. The only reason people go to Dave and Busters, is because adults have more money that they can spend on stuff like that. Im with all of you about the stupid redemption crap though.   Home consoles for sure, and of course, girls.

I would like to thank you and Donk for making my point for me -- you were in the fifth ---smurfing--- grade -- like you had the first clue what the economics of the arcade was like !?!

You paid your quarters and mashed some buttons. Woohoo.

The point is that the success of SF2, which you and Donk-afraid-of-the-fort cite encouraged the ops who were still left to go "all in" every time a new game came out.

They couldn't afford not to after the success of SF2. They ... and we ... lost.

There have been a number of articles written on the subject by folks who were operating at the time.

[Dartful Dodger]

I stopped going when they closed their doors.

Same here.    

Same here.

Every time one closed I'd drive further and further to find another arcade.

Until all that was left was a Dave & Buster's 20 mile away.

[Hoopz]

I would like to thank you and Donk for making my point for me -- you were in the fifth ---smurfing--- grade -- like you had the first clue what the economics of the arcade was like !?!

You paid your quarters and mashed some buttons. Woohoo.

The point is that the success of SF2, which you and Donk-afraid-of-the-fort cite encouraged the ops who were still left to go "all in" every time a new game came out.

They couldn't afford not to after the success of SF2. They ... and we ... lost.

There have been a number of articles written on the subject by folks who were operating at the time.

Have a bunch of dogs poopin' on the lawn this weekend?   

[Donkbaca]

So let me get this straight Cheffo, before the fighting era, operators wouldn't feel the need to buy buy new cabs? Also, fighters have staying power because with all the characters and moves, there is lots of replayability, not to mention the player versus player factor.  Your assessment is just wrong. In my area, SoCal, arcades died out around 2000-2002. SF2 came out in 1992, so yeah SF killed arcades ----10 years after it was introduced. I would say thus was a VERY successful era for arcades, it's a ten year run of street fighters, mortal kombats and marvel vs.  I would say the fighter run starts in 92 with SF2 and ends in 2001 with MvC2.  That is a pretty darn good run, just as long as the classics run.  Also let's not forget, the top grossing game of all time is daytona USA. The 90s were awesome for arcades they died at the millennium, years after these games hit their peak. The reason they did is because operators and game makers atarted making expensive, dedicated cabs that missed their market. Whether you are a classics fan or a fighter fan, these add was great because it was a social gathering point for you and your buddies to hang our and play. Sure the games were better than console games in terms of looks and polish, but it was te experience of the crowd that made arcades great. With new consoles closing the gap in terms of quality, the arcade industry scrambled and tried to five people an experience they couldn't find at home, hence the driving cabs, redemption and other clutter. In doing so they ignored what really made them great; the social aspect of gaming. The concept that is now making xbox the gaming platform of choice, despite the better horsepower of the PS3.

[Dartful Dodger]

In doing so they ignored what really made them great; the social aspect of gaming. The concept that is now making xbox the gaming platform of choice, despite the better horsepower of the PS3.

People play video games to be anti-social.

If they wanted to be social they'd be participating in a sport with/against real people.


BTW, what makes the xBox more social than the PS3?

PS3's online gaming is free, and it's Move allows twice as many players to play at the same time.

[ark_ader]

I have an active arcade just a mile from my house.

I still play in there every month or so.

Nothing like nostalgia. 

[CheffoJeffo]

There have been a number of articles written on the subject by folks who were operating at the time.

Which you didn't bother to link so why mention them?

What is it with you lately -- "If it ain't on the web, then it didn't happen?"

Most articles in coin-op related publications aren't available for free online ... and you know it.

[CheffoJeffo]

The 90s were awesome for arcades they died at the millennium, years after these games hit their peak.

Uh huh ... right ...

 

EDIT: In case the kids don't understand, the big arcade crash happened in the mid 80s. That is my point of reference. You may THINK that the 90s were awesome, but they were nothing compared to the early 80s.

[CheffoJeffo]

Have a bunch of dogs poopin' on the lawn this weekend?   

 

Just a buncha kidz tellingz me aboot dem arcadez and wot hapnd to dem!

[Mikezilla]

In doing so they ignored what really made them great; the social aspect of gaming. The concept that is now making xbox the gaming platform of choice, despite the better horsepower of the PS3.

People play video games to be anti-social.

If they wanted to be social they'd be participating in a sport with/against real people.

See, I totally disagree with that statement. When I used to frequent the arcades, my friends and I loved to play video games with other people we didnt know, or beat the crap out of them because we felt entitled to. Whatever mood we were in. Now, the kids play on 360, or PS3, and there is no repurcussion for being an ---uvula---, or not having respect for anyone, because there isnt a face to it. They are playing with people from all over the country. I used to have a size advantage when I was a kid, when we played games. Kids would think twice before talking ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- to me in an arcade. Now, you play on line, and there is nothing but punk kids playing stuff. Its like playing a computer anyway, I was playing MvC3 the other day, and the lobby system and everything just makes you think you are playing a computer. I think now it MAKES them anti-social due to the medium of which they play. Besides, sports in real life make me hate people. I played football when I was a kid up through high school, and I can barely remember a handful of "fun" times.

 

You paid your quarters and mashed some buttons. Woohoo.

Isnt that what you did too?  

[DNA Dan]

This one's for you Jeffo...

[Marcade]

^ awesome ^

I don't really think it was actually any particular video games that killed the arcades tbh, streetfighter can have the same draw to me as the simpsons or something, it's not all about galaga and pacman, it was more the redemption and jackpot machines killing the atmosphere.

Oh and btw I live in south london and drive to southend to play track and field/space invaders/ and ms pacman, thats an 80 mile two hour round trip, so I don't mind traveling to get my game on!

[emphatic]

Once in a while a couple of my friends (we all have JAMMA cabinets at home btw) meet up and play games for a whole day into the night and eat hot dogs (of course we wash our hands). It's mostly modern shmups, but also some classic JAMMA stuff, but the most important thing is looking at other people play LIVE, and not from some old YouTube clip. We even travel to other countries (one of the best meets, in Germany):



I just remembered that another reason as to why I stopped playing arcade games is that the bad service the machines received. Who wants to play any game with a badly tuned monitor, or on a stick that's not even straight?

[Marcade]

I just remembered that another reason as to why I stopped playing arcade games is that the bad service the machines received. Who wants to play any game with a badly tuned monitor, or on a stick that's not even straight?

Oh yes! couldn't agree more! The number of projection large screen shooters in particular that were just totally unplayable became a huge issue, today going to the beach to play in the few remaining arcades there are ALWAYS over burnt impossible to see games that it there just wasting money being switched on, the owners don't seem to care.

Slightly off topic but that reminds me I recently went to herne bay beach (kent, UK) and an arcade down there that fits the owners that don't care category completely.
All their machines are dirty... just need a clean, penny falls that you have a hard time seing the coins through due to dust.
It's especially annoying as if their arcade was maintained correctly it would be freakin awesome, they have, of the top of my head, a Terminator 2, Operation thunderbolt, Crusin USA and carnevil, plus numerous pinballs, none working though, it's such a tease.

[danny_galaga]

Them disappearing kinda killed the arcades for me...

[SavannahLion]

The 90s were awesome for arcades they died at the millennium, years after these games hit their peak.

Uh huh ... right ...

 

EDIT: In case the kids don't understand, the big arcade crash happened in the mid 80s. That is my point of reference. You may THINK that the 90s were awesome, but they were nothing compared to the early 80s.

I was pretty young in the 80's but I have to agree with Chef on this. I distinctly remember arcades of the 80's being different than those in the 90's.

In the 80's, arcades and cabs were everywhere. I lived in a podunk town and there were about half a dozen locations with arcade cabs (with <5 cabs) within biking distance. The population of my town averaged 17 people. Driving to the main town yielded far more cabs. Drive to the nearest city and you couldn't walk into any public location without hearing the bleeps of a cab. I remember walking into an office and seeing one in the waiting room. The coolest (and biggest) was Aladdin's Castle in the mall(?). Having a small handfull of those tokens when you returned to school on Monday instantly meant your weekend rocked and you were central focus of the school (at least for that week). Those tokens were nearly as good as money and were often used as a form of currency amongst the kids.

By the time the mid 90's rolled around, nearly every cab in my town disappeared. Only the "big" places had them. The arcades got bigger and less seedier at the start of the 90's but they were farther apart, necessitating a car to make the trip. Something a kid didn't necessarily have.

[geomartin]

College killed them for me.  I hung out in arcades all through middle and high school, in fact on Friday and Saturday nights have of my high school could be found at the local arcades.  Graduated High School in 85 so I was there for what I consider the glory years.  My dad's business was going belly up just as I was starting college, so I basically financed my own education which meant work and school and little else.  By the time I tried to go back to the arcades there were no games that caught my interest.  I do make a twice or thrice yearly migration to Santa Cruz to play in the boardwalk arcade which still has a classic games section and 15-20 pinball machines.

[NiN^_^NiN]

Them disappearing kinda killed the arcades for me...

Only arcades around here in Victoria is timezone very sad indeed as the local timezone is all redemption machines with 2 lightgun cabs and a mario kart cab and one huge showcase cab that has metal slug x

That and the skill testers are the only thing worth playing there

I was born to late to go to an arcade the only places i got to play arcade games was either a videoshop that had one cabinet (Bad dudes vs dragon ninja hell yeah) and fish and chip shops almost always had a cocktail cab with space invaders some had standups but that was the standard in the late 80's and early 90's

We had Timezone back then but that was mostly redemption machines like skeeball and fighter and gun cabs and a huge saloon that you use to shoot at stuff with a bb gun to make them do stuff liek you shot a guy in the back then he came to life and played the piano etc then they replaced it with a lightgun version.

For me there was no arcades altho im in australia so i don't know if i missed out on the arcade experience or not but it has always been 1 or 2 arcade cabinets in different venues never one place with a huge log of them

But the fact that it went from 20c to play a game to $1 and now it's usually $2 to $3 doesn't help either but still i think they just weren't as popular and thats why redemption machines started to take over in the places that are still around.

[yotsuya]

At least I have Castles N' Coasters and can share it with my kids. One of the proudest moments I had as a parent was when my daughter got to the second level of Donkey Kong on her own on the machine upstairs.

[Howard_Casto]

I think it was really a combination of all these things for me....

No arcades to go to.

The ones I could find were poorly maintained and lacked a variety of games. 

At some point regular arcade games starting costing as much as the ride-on arcade simulators.  That was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. 



Btw... the 90's was the BEST era of the arcades.  In the 80's you played one player games and tried to beat each others high scores.... that's akin to a time trial.  In the 90's you actually faced EACH OTHER in MOORTAAL KOOMBAAT!  That's like an actual race! Or you could optionally band together with your friends or strangers on a 4-player beat em up to play some TMNT or Xmen... again high scores are irrelevant, your mission is to defeat the bosses and thus defeat the game itself.   Most of your best arcade games came out in the early to mid 90's. 

Mind you I like games from the 80's as well, but the list is far shorter than the games I liked from the 90's, even excluding all the fighters half of the community seems to hate. 

[popsicle]

[/quote]

In the 80's, arcades and cabs were everywhere. I lived in a podunk town and there were about half a dozen locations with arcade cabs (with <5 cabs) within biking distance. The population of my town averaged 17 people. Driving to the main town yielded far more cabs. Drive to the nearest city and you couldn't walk into any public location without hearing the bleeps of a cab. I remember walking into an office and seeing one in the waiting room.

[/quote]

This is so true.  I distinctly remember many restaurants, stores, etc. being associated with different games. And I can still remember... 

Amy Joy Donuts is where I played Mrs. Pac Man
IHOP housed a Phoenix, Pac Man, and later Gorf
Cunningham's Drug Store at the corner shopping strip had Berzerk and Omega Race, then later Championship Baseball
There was a Galaxian and later a Herbie Goes to the Olympics (no, really!) at Zayre
Uncle Bill's had a Donkey Kong and Frogger

On another nostalgic side note, there were many times when my dad liked to browse at Sears after dinner out, and I would hang out and play their Telegames version of the 2600 on display.  I'm sure many of you did the same.

[Necro]

Went to Ocean City, NJ this past weekend for Easter - the wife's parents live there - and we hit the boardwalk and one of the arcades.  Was more than disappointed...

In no particular order:
- They took out pinball machines to put in 2 'always win' claw games...which they already had 2 of in another part of the store.
- They had an 'iCade' multi-machine...accepting quarters...with a 'hacked in' coin mech thing and printouts listing the games.
- I played Terminator Judgement day with someone, and our guns were all kinds of screwed up - for dollar a game, we were PISSED.  (I played on the right hand side, and couldn't shoot the right side of the screen...was hitting pinpoint where I was pointing it but it just stopped working on that side of the screen).
- Three games - a motorcycle game, car game, and boat game (all racing) were basically on the same hardware with different graphics for the gameplay.  Minor color/cab art changes and a bike on the bike one to lean with, a 'throttle' for the boat one, and pedals for the car one.  Bleh. 
- Major, unplayable burn in on 2-3 older games that really shouldn't have had burn in
- A bunch of older games (good ones), crammed into a corner, in a really sad shape.  :/

[bobotech]

This thread reminds me of a couple of little stories.  We lived in a fairly small town known as Bethany in CT.  There was a newly opened ice cream stand near the center of town.  Billy's ice cream.  This was around 1982 or so.  I remember how all the kids on the bus would hum with the rumors that Billy's was going to open an arcade but that never happened.  HOwever they did put in a couple of arcade games.  Donkey Kong and Centipede were 2 that I remember.  And about a mile or few down the road, there was a AM/PM mart that had an arcade game in there.   I remember it was Vanguard and my friend and I had a blast playing them.  Not really arcade memory but still, fun.

[Corbo]

What killed it for me was an increase in price and a decrease in choice.

Arcade machines had to be more and more powerful to keep ahead of consoles, and introduce ways of playing that couldn't be replicated at home.  As a result my local arcades filled with huge and expensive Sega Rally and Daytona style games, or vs fighting games which bored me.  £1 a pop for a small selection of games.  Within 10 minutes you're spent out.

Wind back to the late 80's and you'd find wall to wall cabinets all running different boards at 10 or 20p a go and you could lose a whole day in there.

If someone opened an arcade full of 80's games I would be down there like a shot.

[DNA Dan]

So let's do the roundup, so far we have:

1) Girls (Or boys)
2) Them vanishing from existence
3) The declining value the quarter (Dollar a game  )
4) Decreased selection
5) College
6) Work
7) Growing older (life taking a new direction)

Did I miss any? From the market view of things, it seems like the whole era was just a FAD. OMG, are we all living a LIE??? Starting to feel like the butterfly effect to me....

I'll throw one out there for the decline of arcades in general... How about the personal computer. Think of computer tech in 1990 when a lot of the old school arcades started to decline. You already had the first big gen home console market crash because the market was flooded with cheap, poor quality games. But then there's the personal computer, which offered a new level of graphics capability to the average consumer. In a way, it probably introverted our society. Also during this time it was all about SPEED. How can I get my drive thru latte and be at work in 5 minutes? The need for speed and efficiency from society meant less people hanging out at places loitering or wasting time.

Somewhere out there we all got sucked into the Borg and lost our arcade hangouts.

[Donkbaca]

I think you missed
*) Wallet crushing addiction to high-end, imported European porn.

Other than that, I think we are good

[Mikezilla]

At some point regular arcade games starting costing as much as the ride-on arcade simulators.  That was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. 

Btw... the 90's was the BEST era of the arcades.  In the 80's you played one player games and tried to beat each others high scores.... that's akin to a time trial.  In the 90's you actually faced EACH OTHER in MOORTAAL KOOMBAAT!  That's like an actual race! Or you could optionally band together with your friends or strangers on a 4-player beat em up to play some TMNT or Xmen... again high scores are irrelevant, your mission is to defeat the bosses and thus defeat the game itself.   Most of your best arcade games came out in the early to mid 90's. 

Mind you I like games from the 80's as well, but the list is far shorter than the games I liked from the 90's, even excluding all the fighters half of the community seems to hate. 

Holy ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- Howard! I finally agree with you on something!!!   

Yeah, why is there so much hate towards the fighter games? If you were good at the game, you could play forever on one quarter. At least until one of the snot nosed punks you were playing got lucky and pulled of some crazy hyper combo when you were taking a drink from your soda. 

[scofthe7seas]

It seems like the whole era was just a FAD. OMG, are we all living a LIE??? Starting to feel like the butterfly effect to me....

Many people would consider crack to be a fad, but some enjoy it for a lifetime!

[DNA Dan]

[Yeah, why is there so much hate towards the fighter games?

I'll take a stab at this:

1) Because many people credit the genre with ending the arcade experience.
2) Becuase a lot of kids from that generation think this was "the golden era of the arcade" when really it was a resurgence of something prior.
3) Because those games suck compared to the old school arcade games, they weren't much different than similar games that were being played on computers or consoles at the time.

However if you look at something like Ms. Pacman, it's so unique and original. Nothing during it's time could emulate that game other than the cab itself. So it stands on it's own merits very highly. Fighter games were being played on PS1 in the 90's for a lot less money. They were unoriginal and not that special. Two guys fighting each other? or a crazy pie shaped creature eating dots trying to avoid crazy dudes with sheets over their heads?
No contest on all fronts.

[Bootay]

I personally loved both eras of the arcade. I hung out in arcades every chance I got from age 7-25..by 25 there were very few left and the ones that did remain were closing too. But I felt just as excited going to the arcades in the 90s as I did in the 80s. I was excited when I seen Killer Instict, X-Men Vs. Street Fighter and MK2 and 3 for the first time. I still get sort of excited when I run across an arcade now and will spend a few bucks either reliving the oldies or trying something new.

I am in the camp of "there no longer being any" as the cause..

[Mikezilla]

[Yeah, why is there so much hate towards the fighter games?

I'll take a stab at this:

1) Because many people credit the genre with ending the arcade experience.
2) Becuase a lot of kids from that generation think this was "the golden era of the arcade" when really it was a resurgence of something prior.
3) Because those games suck compared to the old school arcade games, they weren't much different than similar games that were being played on computers or consoles at the time.

However if you look at something like Ms. Pacman, it's so unique and original. Nothing during it's time could emulate that game other than the cab itself. So it stands on it's own merits very highly. Fighter games were being played on PS1 in the 90's for a lot less money. They were unoriginal and not that special. Two guys fighting each other? or a crazy pie shaped creature eating dots trying to avoid crazy dudes with sheets over their heads?
No contest on all fronts.

All good points, but I think the reason why people hate the fighter games the most, is because they were the last real games that didnt have a gimmick, that died with the arcades themselves. There were many other factors that people already mentioned as to the reason why arcades died out. I remember asking an arcade operator here in San Diego when he said he was going to close down, I asked why, and he said that the electric bill for the place was too damn high. There are a bunch of factors why arcades died, but I doubt the fighter genre was the reason.

Going to the last point, I know Ill probably get reemed for this because most of the people on here are old(no offense guys) but some of the classics suck, and the only reason you like them is the same reason I like the fighter games:they were popular when you were young. Like someone else mentioned, the classics only had you try to beat the others score. Some unamed initials, sitting there, mocking you while you try to get the higher score in there so you can be at the top of list of other suckers OR you can actaully watch as your skills break down some other punk kid and they walk away going to get more quarters because they think they can beat you. And of course, you know, that they cant, and its so enjoyable. I imagine the feeling you get is akin to drinking unicorn blood. Or something close at least.

[Donkbaca]

1) Because many people credit the genre with ending the arcade experience.

I don't get this.  Like I said, SF2 came out in 1992. You name one game between 1986 and 1992 that is considered a classic?  People talk like everyone was huddled around smoking cigs and playing Kong and then all of a sudden they were evicted to make room for SF2.  That's just not the case.  Like I said before, to me, the ultimate arcade experience is people all gathered together competing and enjoying the intricacies of a game, to me the beat em ups, and fighters fo the 90's capture this aracade experience.  Someone please explain what this old arcade experience was, and I am being sincere, what was it, and how was it better than watching your competition, trying to learn every nook and cranny of a game and then putting your quarter up to save your place for next?  Because that is the 90's arcade experience.

2) Becuase a lot of kids from that generation think this was "the golden era of the arcade" when really it was a resurgence of something prior.

So is it a resurgence? Or a completely diferent experience that destroyed the old arcade feel?

3) Because those games suck compared to the old school arcade games, they weren't much different than similar games that were being played on computers or consoles at the time.

Old arcade games weren't that different from similar games being played at home.  Arcade games have always been ported to home consoles, that was the major selling points of original consoles, the arcade at home.  Plus, like I said, the best thing about the arcades wasn't the games themselves, it was the interactions you had with other people over the games.

However if you look at something like Ms. Pacman, it's so unique and original. Nothing during it's time could emulate that game other than the cab itself. So it stands on it's own merits very highly. Fighter games were being played on PS1 in the 90's for a lot less money.

You could play pacman on home consoles, and any fight fan would tell you that playing a game on a controller sucks compared to playing one on arcade controls.

They were unoriginal and not that special. Two guys fighting each other? or a crazy pie shaped creature eating dots trying to avoid crazy dudes with sheets over their heads?
No contest on all fronts.

This is pure opinion.  You know what is great about fighters?  They are meant to be played against people.  Unlike Pac Man, or Kong, which you can get good at by being robot-like and memorizing patterns, fighters are great because people are unpredictable, you never know what character your opponent will pick or what strategy they will employ.  Fighters are much, much more deep

[Mikezilla]

Its like, youre reading my mind Donk. Everything I would have said, thanks for typing it all for me! 

[Bootay]

I agree Donk, and I AM one of the "old people". I am 38 years old. I was hanging around arcades and party stores with a small 3-4 game selection almost my whole life. Sure, in the beginning I was a kid but still old enough to ride my bike to the arcades and spend my own money playing on my own without my parents.

But I agree that the fighter thing is pure opinion and not fact. Fighters didn't kill the arcade because MK, MK2 and MK3 from what I remember were gigantic at my local arcades. I mean so many people were crowded around those games that you could barely get in there to see let alone play. SF2 may have over saturated themselves but they were equally as popular, especially later during the Vs. era. Also crowds and crowds of people around those. My local arcades (there were only 2 left during the fighter era) were packed and it was all because of SF and MK. Then when the 3D fighters came out they became equally as packed just because of those games. (VF, Tekken, etc.)

I noticed that once the PS1 came out and you could play 100% faithful versions of these games at home, the need to go to the arcades became less, but I personally would rather play them at the arcade. Most people wouldn't though.

You could play console version of most arcade games in the past but it was never the same, or close but no cigar. I remember one of the things I used to say back in the days of Atari/Intellivision/ColecoVision/NES/SNES/SMS/Genesis was "....and it looks almost like the arcade version!" But now it is expected to look exactly like the arcade version. And has been expected ever since the PS1. The PS1 was the first time we were playing 100% faithful versions of arcade games at home as far as I can remember anyway.

But back to the point...the fighters brought people in to the arcades in the 90s. The arcades were banking during the fighter genre days. I think that most of them shut down because you could buy Tekken 3 and play it at home on your PS1 so why bother going to the arcade and pay to play something you already own? Just because I would rather play the arcade version doesn't mean the vast majority of people felt the same. It is obvious that they didn't feel the same way.
 
So I guess in my opinion, for most people, higher powered consoles that could produce 100% faithful arcade versions is what killed the arcades. But what killed it personally for me is the fact that they are no longer around because I would still go and still do when I run across one.

[DNA Dan]

Dude my comments aren't necessarily how I feel, I was just throwing that out there as some of the reasons people say they hate on fighter games.

I have nothing but luv for the donk and his fighter expertise

I agree about the "games of my youth" statement. Afterall, even the classics were predated by arcades of the '70s with pinball machines and the like.

[saint]

[Yeah, why is there so much hate towards the fighter games?

I'll take a stab at this:

1) Because many people credit the genre with ending the arcade experience.
2) Becuase a lot of kids from that generation think this was "the golden era of the arcade" when really it was a resurgence of something prior.
3) Because those games suck compared to the old school arcade games, they weren't much different than similar games that were being played on computers or consoles at the time.

However if you look at something like Ms. Pacman, it's so unique and original. Nothing during it's time could emulate that game other than the cab itself. So it stands on it's own merits very highly. Fighter games were being played on PS1 in the 90's for a lot less money. They were unoriginal and not that special. Two guys fighting each other? or a crazy pie shaped creature eating dots trying to avoid crazy dudes with sheets over their heads?
No contest on all fronts.

All good points, but I think the reason why people hate the fighter games the most, is because they were the last real games that didnt have a gimmick, that died with the arcades themselves. There were many other factors that people already mentioned as to the reason why arcades died out. I remember asking an arcade operator here in San Diego when he said he was going to close down, I asked why, and he said that the electric bill for the place was too damn high. There are a bunch of factors why arcades died, but I doubt the fighter genre was the reason.

Going to the last point, I know Ill probably get reemed for this because most of the people on here are old(no offense guys) but some of the classics suck, and the only reason you like them is the same reason I like the fighter games:they were popular when you were young. Like someone else mentioned, the classics only had you try to beat the others score. Some unamed initials, sitting there, mocking you while you try to get the higher score in there so you can be at the top of list of other suckers OR you can actaully watch as your skills break down some other punk kid and they walk away going to get more quarters because they think they can beat you. And of course, you know, that they cant, and its so enjoyable. I imagine the feeling you get is akin to drinking unicorn blood. Or something close at least.

Pong was the first fighter

[scofthe7seas]

The PS1 was the first time we were playing 100% faithful versions of arcade games at home as far as I can remember anyway.

I felt Street Fighter 2 on the SNES was DEAD ON compaired to the arcade version. It came out pretty much 2 minutes after the arcade version, and obviously the controls were different, the game was all there.
I hadn't played a fighter like that on an arcade cabinet for... many years. I played some Street Fighter 2 a few weeks ago and got molested by Dhalsim. Completely different controls!

[Bootay]

The PS1 was the first time we were playing 100% faithful versions of arcade games at home as far as I can remember anyway.

I felt Street Fighter 2 on the SNES was DEAD ON compaired to the arcade version. It came out pretty much 2 minutes after the arcade version, and obviously the controls were different, the game was all there.
I hadn't played a fighter like that on an arcade cabinet for... many years. I played some Street Fighter 2 a few weeks ago and got molested by Dhalsim. Completely different controls!

Yea...I could agree with that. SF2 was pretty dead on aside from the controls. Come to think of it, MK could have been dead on if Nintendo didn't decide to rape it by stripping out the blood. But graphically it was pretty darn close if not perfect. Although it's been a while since I played the SNES MK so my memory might need refreshing.

[Vigo]

Eventually fighter games couldn't even survive on the console without having a "story mode" and a bunch of unlockables. I think a lot has to do with the demand for longer games since saving on console games became a standard.

[wp34]

The PS1 was the first time we were playing 100% faithful versions of arcade games at home as far as I can remember anyway.

I felt Street Fighter 2 on the SNES was DEAD ON compaired to the arcade version. It came out pretty much 2 minutes after the arcade version, and obviously the controls were different, the game was all there.
I hadn't played a fighter like that on an arcade cabinet for... many years. I played some Street Fighter 2 a few weeks ago and got molested by Dhalsim. Completely different controls!

Yea...I could agree with that. SF2 was pretty dead on aside from the controls. Come to think of it, MK could have been dead on if Nintendo didn't decide to rape it by stripping out the blood. But graphically it was pretty darn close if not perfect. Although it's been a while since I played the SNES MK so my memory might need refreshing.

I remember at the time thinking the ColecoVision was dead-on.  I realize now that it was not dead-on but Coleco was light-years ahead of the Atari 2600 and it did have a temporary impact on my interest in going to the Arcade.

[Mikezilla]

Eventually fighter games couldn't even survive on the console without having a "story mode" and a bunch of unlockables. I think a lot has to do with the demand for longer games since saving on console games became a standard.

Its beacuse they had to justify a single player playing the game, because thanks to the damn home consoles, there wasnt anyone to play with except your friends. The arcade version didnt have a damn story because the whole point was to fight against people, something home console people at the time didnt want to do. 

[Vigo]

Good point. Didn't think about the single player aspect so much. Nonetheless, there is nothing like challenging someone  in an arcade fighter, probably the only real fighter matches I really remember. The only time I remember enjoying a console version like the arcades is when someone brought tekken to school and we had a class tournament in my study hall.

[Donkbaca]

KOTH mode in the new Mortal Kombat does a lot to recapture that old feel

[bobotech]

Here is my big problem with fighters.  This is coming from a mediocre player who was never really good any any video game, I just liked playing them.  The problem with fighters is that they were always way too complex for me and I could never do well with the patterns.  So every single fighting game  became nothing more than a button masher to me.  SF2 all the way to the latest and greatest during the late '90s were all the same to me.  The whole point was you against someone else using a joystick and a bunch of random buttons.

Same thing with the brawlers like Streets of Rage (was that an arcade or strictly Genesis?), they all seemed to be pretty much the same concept with no originality.  Sure the artwork changed or the weapons changed but still , teh same basic thing.

I never could see deeper into the game and appreciate the techniques of pulling off speical moves or anticipating the other players attack and defending it and so on.  I was just a mediocre player who got bored and annoyed at ALL fighters and just gave up on arcades other than racing games which have always been my first love.

That was one of the big reasons why I quit.  My opinion of fighters has changed though recently.  I am now tryign to learn the patterns and the games are much more enjoyable to me.

[Mikezilla]

Here is my big problem with fighters.  This is coming from a mediocre player who was never really good any any video game, I just liked playing them.  The problem with fighters is that they were always way too complex for me and I could never do well with the patterns.  So every single fighting game  became nothing more than a button masher to me.  SF2 all the way to the latest and greatest during the late '90s were all the same to me.  The whole point was you against someone else using a joystick and a bunch of random buttons.

Same thing with the brawlers like Streets of Rage (was that an arcade or strictly Genesis?), they all seemed to be pretty much the same concept with no originality.  Sure the artwork changed or the weapons changed but still , teh same basic thing.

I never could see deeper into the game and appreciate the techniques of pulling off speical moves or anticipating the other players attack and defending it and so on.  I was just a mediocre player who got bored and annoyed at ALL fighters and just gave up on arcades other than racing games which have always been my first love.

That was one of the big reasons why I quit.  My opinion of fighters has changed though recently.  I am now tryign to learn the patterns and the games are much more enjoyable to me.

See, I never got into the driving games, or the sports games. They all seemed boring to me, especially sports games, because I played sports in real life, soooo there wasnt any reason to play a watered down version of it. Its so funny, I just got MvC3 and I got ---my bottom--- handed to me by some punk kid, well, I assumed it was a kid considering it was online. I was so frustrated too. Getting combo'ed non-stop and I thought to myself "man, is this what I was doing to other people in the arcades back in the day?"  So thats how that feels. Kinda funny.

[DNA Dan]

Its so funny, I just got MvC3 and I got ---my bottom--- handed to me by some punk kid, well, I assumed it was a kid considering it was online. I was so frustrated too. Getting combo'ed non-stop and I thought to myself "man, is this what I was doing to other people in the arcades back in the day?"  So thats how that feels. Kinda funny.

Happens to me all the time when the PSN is up  You get served then have to hear some smack on the mic from a chipmunk. What you're only 10? Where are your parents!???

[SNAAKE]

I heard you can mute EVERYONE and never have to hear what anyone has to say on the mic

[Malenko]

You name one game between 1986 and 1992 that is considered a classic?

Well "classic" is a VERY subjective opinion. This is off the top of my head with the years looked up on KLOV. I may have missed some, and I'm sure others aren't "classics" A ton of the games I thought of were actually for 1983-1985

please feel free to bash my list:

720 (apparently the greatest game ever made ever , 1986)
Afterburner (1987)
Arkanoid (1986)
Bad Dudes (1988)
Bobble Bobble/Bubble Bobble (1986)
Bomberman (1991)
BreakThru (Ok, maybe not a classic to others but I LOVE this game 1986)
Castlevania (1986)
Contra (1987)
Double Dragon (1987)
Final Fight (1989)
Golden Axe (1989)
Guerrilla War (1987)
Hard Drivin (1989)
Ikari Warriors (1986)
Magic Sword (1990)
Mighty Bomb Jack (1986)
Mike Tyson's Punch Out (PC-10 , 1987)
Out Run (1986)
Raiden (1990)
Rampage (1986)
Rampart (1990)
Shinobi (1987)
Silkworm (1988)
The Simpsons (1991)
Strider (1998)
Smash TV (1990)
Tecmo Bowl (1987)
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1989)
Tetris (1988)
Virtua Racing (1992)
WWF Wrestlefest (1991)
X-Men (1992 the 2/4/6 player side scroller, not the fighting game)


I left fighters like Street Fighter (1987), all the Street Fighter IIs (1991/1992) ,Fatal Fury (1991), and Mortal Kombat (1992) off the list, and hardware like the Nintendo Play Choice 10 (1986) , CPS1 (1988),Neo Geo MVS (1989)

[CheffoJeffo]

[Yeah, why is there so much hate towards the fighter games?

I'll take a stab at this:

1) Because many people credit the genre with ending the arcade experience.
2) Becuase a lot of kids from that generation think this was "the golden era of the arcade" when really it was a resurgence of something prior.
3) Because those games suck compared to the old school arcade games, they weren't much different than similar games that were being played on computers or consoles at the time.

However if you look at something like Ms. Pacman, it's so unique and original. Nothing during it's time could emulate that game other than the cab itself. So it stands on it's own merits very highly. Fighter games were being played on PS1 in the 90's for a lot less money. They were unoriginal and not that special. Two guys fighting each other? or a crazy pie shaped creature eating dots trying to avoid crazy dudes with sheets over their heads?
No contest on all fronts.

All good points, but I think the reason why people hate the fighter games the most, is because they were the last real games that didnt have a gimmick, that died with the arcades themselves. There were many other factors that people already mentioned as to the reason why arcades died out. I remember asking an arcade operator here in San Diego when he said he was going to close down, I asked why, and he said that the electric bill for the place was too damn high. There are a bunch of factors why arcades died, but I doubt the fighter genre was the reason.

Going to the last point, I know Ill probably get reemed for this because most of the people on here are old(no offense guys) but some of the classics suck, and the only reason you like them is the same reason I like the fighter games:they were popular when you were young. Like someone else mentioned, the classics only had you try to beat the others score. Some unamed initials, sitting there, mocking you while you try to get the higher score in there so you can be at the top of list of other suckers OR you can actaully watch as your skills break down some other punk kid and they walk away going to get more quarters because they think they can beat you. And of course, you know, that they cant, and its so enjoyable. I imagine the feeling you get is akin to drinking unicorn blood. Or something close at least.

Pong was the first fighter

And there were more good head-to-head games that teh kiddeez forget about. Can we say Atari Football or Joust ? Let's not forget Sprint 8 or Tank 8!

As for the fighter genre killing off the arcades, I never said that.

I said that the success of SF2 resulted in ops, who were already hanging on by the skin of their teeth, feeling like they had to buy every new game that came out "just in case it was the next SF2". A clearly unsustainable business model after 1983.

[DNA Dan]

I heard you can mute EVERYONE and never have to hear what anyone has to say on the mic

For some reason after getting schooled I feel I am "obligated" to hear the smack. The better player is deserving of it afterall.

[Donkbaca]

Cheffo - I basically agree with your assesment, but I would say it was Daytona USA that caused this, not SF2

[DNA Dan]

I suppose when you have a winner on your hands and you're making money hand over fist, you tend to jump on it for fear of missing out on the "next big thing."

Makes perfect sense to me. Look at the housing market...Contractors and developers were making millions of dollars during the housing boom and now they've flooded the market so much there's like 2-3 years of excess inventory in this country. They have decimated that industry.

[Donkbaca]

No, the housing market was fueled due to cheap financing and the ability to leverage.  Doesn't apply here. Try again

[scofthe7seas]

Bad Dudes (1988)

You totally left out Karnov.

I said that the success of SF2 resulted in ops, who were already hanging on by the skin of their teeth, feeling like they had to buy every new game that came out "just in case it was the next SF2". A clearly unsustainable business model after 1983.

What's worse than this, is that everybody who did NOT jump on that ship thinking that most of those games are pretty similar (which is true) lost a LOT of customers due to them seeking out "the next big thing". Why stay here and play plain Jane Street Fighter 2, when there is HYPER Street Fighter 2. Or Super Street Fighter 2, or Super Street Fighter 2 Hyper edition.

[DNA Dan]

No, the housing market was fueled due to cheap financing and the ability to leverage.  Doesn't apply here. Try again

I'm not arguing what fueled it, simply stating that it's supply and demand. As the demand for those cabs went up, so did the supply.

[CheffoJeffo]

From the market view of things, it seems like the whole era was just a FAD. OMG, are we all living a LIE???

One of the G4 shows on arcades (available on ArcArc) featured an interview with Tim Skelly who said exactly that -- the video arcade industry was a fad and collapsed under its' own weight in the mid 80s. While I do think that the business models that arose as a result of the resurgence of the arcade (driven by SF2) caused the death of the video arcade, I would have to agree with Tim's assessment of that first big crash.

[CheffoJeffo]

Bad Dudes (1988)

You totally left out Karnov.

And Rygar.

I said that the success of SF2 resulted in ops, who were already hanging on by the skin of their teeth, feeling like they had to buy every new game that came out "just in case it was the next SF2". A clearly unsustainable business model after 1983.

What's worse than this, is that everybody who did NOT jump on that ship thinking that most of those games are pretty similar (which is true) lost a LOT of customers due to them seeking out "the next big thing". Why stay here and play plain Jane Street Fighter 2, when there is HYPER Street Fighter 2. Or Super Street Fighter 2, or Super Street Fighter 2 Hyper edition.

Fair enough.

[Malenko]

Bad Dudes (1988)

You totally left out Karnov.

And Rygar.

like I said , subjective. I actually pulled Rygar off the list and while Karnov was the first boss in Bad Dudes, I dont really think his game was "classic" =). Im not worried about adding games to the list, the original poster said name ONE game, as if there werent any.

[Donkbaca]

I don't consider those games classics.  I stand firm in my belief bubble.  you cannot pop it.

[Malenko]

I don't consider those games classics.  I stand firm in my belief bubble.  you cannot pop it.

I'll trim the list to the most famous 9 (IMO)

You saying that :

Arkanoid (1986)
Contra (1987)
Double Dragon (1987)
Golden Axe (1989)
Out Run (1986)
Raiden (1990)
Rampage (1986)
Smash TV (1990)
Tetris (1988)

NONE of those are classics? I mean I dont even remember what Tetris was. Who ever heard of Contra?

/lame you cant admit you were mistaken or just made a bad point you thought was valid at the time. Kinda glad you never posted at the fort now.

[Vigo]

I don't consider those games classics.  I stand firm in my belief bubble.  you cannot pop it.

NONE of those are classics? I mean I dont even remember what Tetris was. Who ever heard of Contra?

/lame you cant admit you were mistaken or just made a bad point you thought was valid at the time. Kinda glad you never posted at the fort now.

I'm not disagreeing with your overall statement, but for the simple sake of arguement Tetris and Contra were not classics because of the arcade. You can thank the NES for immortalizing those two.

[Donkbaca]

I would say R-Type, 1987 should be on your list too

My larger point was that when people say "fighters ended the arcade"  they act like there were all these great games and that SF2 somehow changed the types of games that were made.  My point is that most of games people consider to be classics were made WAY before SF2 hit the arcade scene people stopped making donkey kongs and pac-whatevers well before 1992.  

Lets look closer at your list and see how these types of games faired in the SF2 era.  

Arkanoid was just a rehash of the 1970's breakout games.  It is not a classic.  Nobody cares about it.  Know anybody that has an arkanoid cab?

Contra, I would argue is much more popular as a console game then an arcade game, same for Tetris.  I personally, don't consider them arcade classics

Double Dragon, I will say IS an arcade classic, but beat em ups were all over the arcades in the 90's, as were the hack and slash type games like Golden Axe and SHMUPS like Raiden.   So you can't say, "because of SF2, there were no more beat em ups, or hack and slashes or SHMUPS"  that's just not true.  What IS different, during the fighter era is the lack of 1p, play for high score type games, which is what I was talking about when I made my comment, and those died WAY before Sf2 ruled the arcade scene.  

I still disagree with the notion that it was fighters that bankrupted arcades.  When Super hyperfighting chamionship edition version 2, the rainbow hack comes out, OPS, at least the one at the arcades I went to, just swapped boards and the marquee out of an old machine.  

My story as to why they died is this:

The thought was that people went to arcades to play games they couldn't play elsewhere, most people assumed that people liked arcade games because the graphics and sound were better.  Popular arcade games were getting better and better ports to home consoles. The industry, losing its advantage on graphics and sound feels threatened, thinks the only way it can compete is to give the customer something they can't get at home.  

Around this time, Daytona becomes the highest grossing arcade game ever.

The industry puts two and two together:  The highest grossing game is a dedicated racing cab, which is something you can't really replicate at home.  The industry goes bananas with all these strange dedicated cabs; driving cabs, rhthym cabs, etc.  When a new game comes out, its not just a simple board and marquee swap, now its the cabinet itself that is important to the experience, so Ops have to invest in all new cabs to have the latest thing.  This led to gimmicky games that were expensive to play.

The industry miscalculated.  In retrospect, we didn't just go to arcades to play games, we went to play games against our fellow geeks and socialize.  Whether that competition took place in the form of the high score on galaga, or most wins in a row on MKII, its the same spirit.  

It was the gimmicky dedicated cabs that killed the arcades

[Vigo]

It was the gimmicky dedicated cabs that killed the arcades

If I had to sum up why I abandoned the arcades in one sentence, this would be it. But I don't think that players disliked the gimmicky cabs, I think it was that to support the cost of these cabs, arcades needed to raise the prices. Nobody wanted to pay a price that went from a standard credit being $0.25 to $0.50 to $0.75 and then $1.00 per game at the demise of the arcade. I have seen these gimmicky cabs cost anywhere up to $3.00 per credit.

The added cost outweighed the heightened experience.

[CheffoJeffo]

Arkanoid was just a rehash of the 1970's breakout games.  It is not a classic.  Nobody cares about it.  Know anybody that has an arkanoid cab?

Yep ... bunches of them. Myself included.

Add to that the degree to which Arkanoid was bootlegged -- I can't think of a single game with more board/pinout variants.

[yotsuya]

It was the gimmicky dedicated cabs that killed the arcades

I thought it was the airplanes that got him?

[Howard_Casto]

[Yeah, why is there so much hate towards the fighter games?

I'll take a stab at this:

1) Because many people credit the genre with ending the arcade experience.
2) Becuase a lot of kids from that generation think this was "the golden era of the arcade" when really it was a resurgence of something prior.
3) Because those games suck compared to the old school arcade games, they weren't much different than similar games that were being played on computers or consoles at the time.

However if you look at something like Ms. Pacman, it's so unique and original. Nothing during it's time could emulate that game other than the cab itself. So it stands on it's own merits very highly. Fighter games were being played on PS1 in the 90's for a lot less money. They were unoriginal and not that special. Two guys fighting each other? or a crazy pie shaped creature eating dots trying to avoid crazy dudes with sheets over their heads?
No contest on all fronts.

All good points, but I think the reason why people hate the fighter games the most, is because they were the last real games that didnt have a gimmick, that died with the arcades themselves. There were many other factors that people already mentioned as to the reason why arcades died out. I remember asking an arcade operator here in San Diego when he said he was going to close down, I asked why, and he said that the electric bill for the place was too damn high. There are a bunch of factors why arcades died, but I doubt the fighter genre was the reason.

Going to the last point, I know Ill probably get reemed for this because most of the people on here are old(no offense guys) but some of the classics suck, and the only reason you like them is the same reason I like the fighter games:they were popular when you were young. Like someone else mentioned, the classics only had you try to beat the others score. Some unamed initials, sitting there, mocking you while you try to get the higher score in there so you can be at the top of list of other suckers OR you can actaully watch as your skills break down some other punk kid and they walk away going to get more quarters because they think they can beat you. And of course, you know, that they cant, and its so enjoyable. I imagine the feeling you get is akin to drinking unicorn blood. Or something close at least.

Pong was the first fighter

Yes, yes it was..... and this is why a MKified version of pong was included in Mortal Kombat 3!  

[CheffoJeffo]

I still disagree with the notion that it was fighters that bankrupted arcades.  When Super hyperfighting chamionship edition version 2, the rainbow hack comes out, OPS, at least the one at the arcades I went to, just swapped boards and the marquee out of an old machine.  

You still don't understand what I said.

I said that ops felt compelled to buy any new game in the hopes that it would be the next big money maker like SF2 was.

It was not limited to fighters and did, indeed, include the expensive "gimmicky" cabs that you blame.

We should be also be reasonable about the cost of the non-gimmicky games -- new boards typically cost far more than the rest of the cabinet.

[emphatic]

I'm not seeing Flying Shark, Black Tiger or Rolling Thunder on that list of classics.

Also, gimmicky games can go to hell.

[Howard_Casto]

I think a lot of these arguments and the best arcade generation can be solved by simply taking a step back....

I see people bashing the 90's but they are referring to games and trends in the LATE 90's.
I also see people defending the 80's by using games in the LATE 80's.  

The late 80's to early 90's was the best period.  I think we could all agree on that.  

The early 80's weren't that great... it basically consisted of 30,000 space shooters with no personality and an occasional gem like pacman, which then gets destroyed by numerous clones and sequels.  The same thing can be said for the late 90's when every other cabinet is a lame racing sim or the 17th revision of a fighting game that looks like every other fighting game.  

Basically at some point the industry starts from scratch and lots of new ideas come out of it and it's good.  Then we go through a period of everybody running those ideas into the ground.  Still happens on consoles to this day.  

[Donkbaca]

Dammit Cheffo.  I do not want to agree with you, but you are making it so hard.


Cheffo's point:

I said that ops felt compelled to buy any new game in the hopes that it would be the next big money maker like SF2 was...

The Donk's take:

...ops felt compelled to buy any new game in the hopes that it would be the next big money maker like Daytona was...


Seeing as how both games were contemporaneous, we are taking about the same Ops at the same time, doing the same stupid things.

I'll agree with you about the boards being the most costly things, but it seems to me that a new MvC board would be significantly cheaper then a brand new Hydro Thunder Cab.

I do disagree that arkanoid is a classic though.  Won't budge from it.  Its got a lot of what I think of as classic-y features: its one player, its got simple controls, it was all over the place, its recognizable.  But to me its a rehash of the 1970's breakout games, and I don't feel right calling it a classic when in my mind its a ripoff...

[saint]

I would say R-Type, 1987 should be on your list too

My larger point was that when people say "fighters ended the arcade"  they act like there were all these great games and that SF2 somehow changed the types of games that were made.  My point is that most of games people consider to be classics were made WAY before SF2 hit the arcade scene people stopped making donkey kongs and pac-whatevers well before 1992.  

Two points:

1. From my perspective, I didn't say that fighters ended the arcade, I said they ended the arcade for me. As in, I didn't enjoy fighters.

2. It wasn't when they were made that mattered, it was that they were there for me to play. When games I considered good were crowded out by an endless array of fighters (and redemption) games, I lost interest.  I'd happily play Donkey Kong, Xevious, Chiller, Jump Bug, Mappy, BagMan, Tempest, Star Wars, Frogger, Kangaroo, Quartet, Gauntlet, etc. all day long.

[saint]

Arkanoid was just a rehash of the 1970's breakout games.  It is not a classic.  Nobody cares about it.  Know anybody that has an arkanoid cab?

KLOV:
http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=6916

Very Common - There are 255 known instances of this machine owned by Arkanoid collectors who are members.

Wanted - Popular - There are 20 VAPS members currently looking for Arkanoid.

This game ranks a 87 on a scale out of 100 (100 = most often seen, 1=least common) in popularity based on census ownership records.

This game ranks a 44 on a scale out of 100 (100 = most often wanted, 1=least common) in popularity based on census want list records.

Classic is in the eye of the beholder

[Vigo]

I really don't think that SF2 should be under the gun at all, weren't ops always looking for the next big thing? Love em or hate em, SF2 ushered an era of the arcade. SF2 should be considered nothing other than a beacon of what a good arcade game in the 90's is. Sure, fighters were soon a saturated trend, but a cost effective one that breathed some life back into the industry, Unlike the $1.00 per credit leviathans that soon took up all the real estate. I really don't think Neo Geo would be the success it was without fighters.

If I have to lay blame on SF2, it because of all the "horrible conversions" I have never seen so many good machines turn prey to any game more than SF2. (Although, I remember arkanoid being a big offender as well...)

 

[Thenasty]

"Insert Coin to CONTINUE .... " that killed the Arcade for me.

[DNA Dan]

Two points:

1. From my perspective, I didn't say that fighters ended the arcade, I said they ended the arcade for me. As in, I didn't enjoy fighters.

2. It wasn't when they were made that mattered, it was that they were there for me to play. When games I considered good were crowded out by an endless array of fighters (and redemption) games, I lost interest.  I'd happily play Donkey Kong, Xevious, Chiller, Jump Bug, Mappy, BagMan, Tempest, Star Wars, Frogger, Kangaroo, Quartet, Gauntlet, etc. all day long.

+1 Whether it was the fighting scene or the gimmicky cabs, bottom line is when I walked into an arcade there just weren't games I wanted to play anymore.

"Insert coin to continue" - The person who developed this model of "time" or "health that counts down" should be given a slow death. I want my 3 lives with no limits on how much skill I can put on a quarter.

[Malenko]

I would say R-Type, 1987 should be on your list too

Arkanoid was just a rehash of the 1970's breakout games.  It is not a classic.  Nobody cares about it.  Know anybody that has an arkanoid cab?

Contra, I would argue is much more popular as a console game then an arcade game, same for Tetris.  I personally, don't consider them arcade classics

Double Dragon, I will say IS an arcade classic, but beat em ups were all over the arcades in the 90's, as were the hack and slash type games like Golden Axe and SHMUPS like Raiden.   So you can't say, "because of SF2, there were no more beat em ups, or hack and slashes or SHMUPS"  that's just not true.  What IS different, during the fighter era is the lack of 1p, play for high score type games, which is what I was talking about when I made my comment, and those died WAY before Sf2 ruled the arcade scene.

Firstly, I never said anything about anything, just listed classic games from your pre-determined era, with that said....
Contra and Tetris were popular enough in the arcade to warrant the console release. I didnt know R Type even was an arcade game for a very long time, I thought it an NES game like Life Force.  So now I have to name a game YOU consider "classic" in a 6 year span that isnt a fighter, beat'em up, hack n slash, or shmup?  How about you DQ any game with a monitor and buttons too?

I agree that Fighters started dominating the market, but you cant dismiss the sheer number of really good non-fighting games released in the time frame you mentioned. And Arkanoid is one of my all time favorite games and I'd love to have a dedicated cab.

To call it a rip off of break out seems a bit much, enemies,power ups, warps, etc its like saying Mortal Kombat is just a rip off of Karate Champ.

There isnt ONE thing that killed arcades, it was a multitude of things. Consoles, Ops trying to find the next big hit, cost, people not going, etc And there was a shift in the arcade from single player experiences to two player or more exeriences; and it makes sense if you think about it. 25 cents for 1 guy to shoot aliens, 1 player at a time, or two players plunkin down 50 cents to play at the same time. I think it was the need/want to charge 50 cents or more per credit that really hurt them.

@DNADan
as for $$$ for time; it was great on play choice 10 cabs, you could play like 4 or 5 games if you were terrible enough, $$ for health I believe Gauntlet started that circa 1985

[DNA Dan]

@DNADan
as for $$$ for time; it was great on play choice 10 cabs, you could play like 4 or 5 games if you were terrible enough, $$ for health I believe Gauntlet started that circa 1985

It's cool to check out multiple games, but if you're a regular player and you're good, it's just a ripoff on your skills. I think that's why I never really played play choice cabs.

[Donkbaca]

 

I didnt know R Type even was an arcade game for a very long time, I thought it an NES game like Life Force. 

I just lost a little bit of respect for you on that one.  You mean life force released in the arcades as the sequel to Gradius, which was released also released in the arcades?

I suppose classic is in the eye of the beholder, so I won't push the point on arkanoid too hard.  Maybe that would be a good thread,  Arcade Classics.

If you want an arkanoid, they aren't hard to find, you can get the boards on ebay for 50 -60 bucks, and seeing as how they were mostly on generic cabs, you could have one pretty cheap if you want one. 

I guess the point is what killed arcades for you.  For me it was the gimicky cabs and redemption crap.  For people that say SF2, I just don't connect with that because arcades were pretty much dead in my town for a few years before SF2 came out.

[Malenko]

Just cause you think Im bustin your balls today......

And Arkanoid is one of my all time favorite games and I'd love to have a dedicated cab.

If you want an arkanoid, they aren't hard to find, you can get the boards on ebay for 50 -60 bucks, and seeing as how they were mostly on generic cabs, you could have one pretty cheap if you want one. 

dedicated....generic...whatev,lol  In time I prolly will make a bartop or spinner MAME cab.

As for R-Type, I was like 7 in a small town in the sticks and Al Gore didnt invent the internet yet, so cut me a little slack.

[Bootay]

I knew R-Type, Gradius and Life Force were originally arcade games, but let's face it. These games were more popular in Japan. I never seen a Gradius cab before, nor have I ever seen a Life Force. R-Type I seen here and there, but it really wasn't a very popular choice. I am not saying that I didn't like them, I am saying that most ops didn't carry those games in my area. Not sure about the rest of the USA. But in my part of Michigan they were pretty scarce to non-existent, which is probably the case where Malenko is from.

As for PBJs comments on Vs.: Yea I never understood why people even bothered. Back in those days EVERY person I knew owned a NES. If I ever felt the need to play Duck Hunt or Super Mario Bros. I would just go to their house and play for free/unlimited time.

[scofthe7seas]

like I said , subjective. I actually pulled Rygar off the list and while Karnov was the first boss in Bad Dudes, I dont really think his game was "classic" =). Im not worried about adding games to the list, the original poster said name ONE game, as if there werent any.

Hahaha I absolutely was not being serious about suggesting Karnov as a classic game.

[yotsuya]

I thought the gangs of juvenile delinquents that took over the arcades led to the downfall.

[Mikezilla]

I liked your King Kong reference.

[Bootay]

I thought the gangs of juvenile delinquents that took over the arcades led to the downfall.

This actually was the case for a couple of arcades in my area. One of them was so bad with drug dealers a squad car was almost always parked in the driveway. Come to think of it, maybe the cop was there buying drugs too. LOL

[TOK]

The late 80's to early 90's was the best period.  I think we could all agree on that.  

Uh, no. In fact, no doesn't begin to describe the amount of no...   Defender, Donkey Kong, Moon Patrol, Spy Hunter, Robotron, Space Invaders, Asteroids, Centipede, Tron, Tempest, Star Wars, Q*Bert, Frogger, Burgertime. I could name 50 more great early 80's games no problem.

That time ruled. If you weren't born, still crapping your pants, or even in a position to be asking your parents if you could play a game before 1984, you just have no idea what you're even saying.

[scofthe7seas]

I could name 50 more great early 80's games no problem.

I call shenanigans.

[Donkbaca]

moon patrol?  Centipede, I was fired up wehn I got my trackball,  gonna play me some centipede, then 3 minutes later I was over it.  C'mon, frogger? Seriously?  Do you actually play these games?  That being said, the early 80's had the pac man craze and galaga, there are some WAY WAY better games then centipede and moon patrol

I think the late 80's had stinker games. 

I would say 81-6 and 91-96 pretty much has most everything I am interested in playing.

[saint]

moon patrol?  Centipede, I was fired up wehn I got my trackball,  gonna play me some centipede, then 3 minutes later I was over it.  C'mon, frogger? Seriously?  Do you actually play these games?  That being said, the early 80's had the pac man craze and galaga, there are some WAY WAY better games then centipede and moon patrol

I think the late 80's had stinker games. 

I would say 81-6 and 91-96 pretty much has most everything I am interested in playing.

Centipede and Moon Patrol would be on my classics list.

[Donkbaca]

Call them whatever you want. They are a snore.

[TOK]

I could name 50 more great early 80's games no problem.

I call shenanigans.

Just look at KLOV's top 100 list. Almost half of them are from the period of 80-83, and there are still plenty that could be added. Look at the top 10 voted by readers and collectors.

I guess it all comes down to what you grew up with. Fighting games were OK (I even own a JAMMA fighter with a few boards), but don't get even 1/10th of the play the classics like Robotron and DK get.

[Donkbaca]

The KLOV list is made by a bunch of folks who believe that arcades died with the leaf switch.

I think the best way to answer that is figure out what gets played most on cabs.  I mean on a mame cab you have competition from every game of every genre.  I bet moon patrol doesn't get played a whole lot. 

From trolling around here for a while, I would say top games for sure are:

Robotron
Asteroids (deluxe)
Defender
Joust
Stargate
Donkey Kong
Ms. Pacman
Tempest

New generation

Turtles
Xmen
MK 1-3
SF - all of them except the 3d ones
Bust-a-move.


Those are the ones where people are like, "I can't wait to finsh my cab so I can play some xxxx"

nobody ever says, I can't wait to finish my cab to play some arkanoid....

[Malenko]

I cant wait to build my spinnerMAME cab so I can play some arkanoid.


On my cabs, my most played by others are Killer Instinct and Ms.PacMan. Buddy from work came over today and now he wants to make a MAME cab so he can play the Killer Instincts and Mortal Kombats

Im having a house warming on Saturday, I'll reset the play counters and let you know what they play (if they play anything, its mostly my GFs friends, lol)


its just so funny that I agree with DoDonBaka so much but hes so hostile, its hilarious

[Bootay]

I like Moon Patrol and Frogger and would also consider them classics right up there with Pac-Man and Galaga. But I also was old enough to go to the arcades on my own without parents when those games were new. So I guess that's what this debate boils down to...age. older people find Galaga, Pac-Man, Centipede, Moon Patrol, etc. classic, and younger people think Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter 2 and Killer Instinct are classics. I love pretty much ALL games. I am a game addict so I think they are all classics. I never stopped going to the arcades...I still go when I find one. And yes I will even play the $1 gimmicky games at Dave & Busters when I go which isn't often.

[TOK]

The KLOV list is made by a bunch of folks who believe that arcades died with the leaf switch.

Its also made of thousands of people who buy and restore classic games, yet you just completely disregard their opinions because they aren't aligned with yours.




 

[Nephasth]

I cant wait to build my spinnerMAME cab so I can play some arkanoid.

Love Arkanoid. Putting mine together was the first time I encountered the inside of an arcade machine. It was fun to get working and it's even more fun to play.

[yotsuya]

I thought the gangs of juvenile delinquents that took over the arcades led to the downfall.

This actually was the case for a couple of arcades in my area. One of them was so bad with drug dealers a squad car was almost always parked in the driveway. Come to think of it, maybe the cop was there buying drugs too. LOL

No lie. Someone here from the UK posted in another thread how the kids who started to hang out at the arcades made it dangerous. I wonder how many others have the same story?

[Donkbaca]

Who said I disregard their opinion? I am just calling it for what it is. They aren't some universal end all in terms of what is a good game and what isn't, they are a bunch of people dedicated to restoring old games so their opinion comes from a bias. I admit my bias, I am a 90s arcade guy, but I will not mindlessly defend every 90s arcade game. SO WHAT if I was a kid in the 80s the games are the same now as they were 30 years ago. Some, like to robotron and ms pac man and galaga are good games that stand the test of times because they are good games, others, like moon patrol and centipede just aren't good games in my opinion. They aren't fun to play now. If you disagree then either we have vastly different tastes or you like the games for nostalgia sake, that's fine, but don't tell me I dint get it. I am fully capable of figuring out what is fun to play and what isn't, and I think a lot of the "classics" are more fun ad nostalgia than as a game

[CheffoJeffo]

I really don't think that SF2 should be under the gun at all, weren't ops always looking for the next big thing? Love em or hate em, SF2 ushered an era of the arcade. SF2 should be considered nothing other than a beacon of what a good arcade game in the 90's is.

Of course they were looking -- the point is that, after SF2, they stopped looking and blindly bought because SF2 was such a wild success.

[CheffoJeffo]

I could name 50 more great early 80's games no problem.

I call shenanigans.

Read Van Burnham's Supercade and you will see the folly of your claim of shenanigans.

There were tons of fun and unique games in the golden age.

 

[Marcade]

What have I done!!!!  stop arguing about the 80's or 90's being better!

I love dedicated cabs but personally feel the typical standup 80's cab to be definitive.
HOWEVER I have a lot of love and respect for a lot of 86 and up games, and there are some great games after 86.
To me it was more about the redemption machines etc.
I completely understand the argument with regards to the price of the dedicated cabs rising the price of the per play game, also the risk was great to the owner, buying a huge dedicated cab only to have the game not be popular must have been soul destroying.

My point is I wouldn't blame any specific game or game generation, designers would have gotten around these issues, new guns and marquee and bam it's a new shooter, I think there was a grab for the machine which would make the most money so the lifespan of a game was reduced, as the prices stayed high there wouldn't be a natural slow down, it was very much all or nothing, you make a load or loose a load.

[skuttduck]

I knew R-Type, Gradius and Life Force were originally arcade games, but let's face it. These games were more popular in Japan. I never seen a Gradius cab before, nor have I ever seen a Life Force. R-Type I seen here and there, but it really wasn't a very popular choice. I am not saying that I didn't like them, I am saying that most ops didn't carry those games in my area. Not sure about the rest of the USA. But in my part of Michigan they were pretty scarce to non-existent, which is probably the case where Malenko is from.

As for PBJs comments on Vs.: Yea I never understood why people even bothered. Back in those days EVERY person I knew owned a NES. If I ever felt the need to play Duck Hunt or Super Mario Bros. I would just go to their house and play for free/unlimited time.

I distinctly remember seeing and playing Life Force at Aladdin's castle in the Meridian Mall in Okemos.  It was the reason I got the game for the NES.

I remember there was always someone playing the arcade version of SMB at Aladdins Castle (they would hog the game).  I remember first seeing someone do the 1-up trick in world 4.  From there I realized I might be able to do that in world 3 on the NES.  I always wanted to play the arcade version of SMB but never did until I made my mame cabinet.  Let me just say, whoever designed world 6-4 in that was one sadistic bastard!

I miss the arcades but I did notice that Pinball Petes still exists and I may have to visit again.  I just hadn't done that since getting married and such.

[Vigo]

I really don't think that SF2 should be under the gun at all, weren't ops always looking for the next big thing? Love em or hate em, SF2 ushered an era of the arcade. SF2 should be considered nothing other than a beacon of what a good arcade game in the 90's is.

Of course they were looking -- the point is that, after SF2, they stopped looking and blindly bought because SF2 was such a wild success.

Well, I don't think SF2 came with a stupidity circuit that make the owners want to buy any old dumb game...it was more that there were a ton of dumb choices out there after SF2.

Nonetheless, I think we are both agreeing that SF2 isn't the problem, it is more that there wasn't the same climate at the time to revive the industry, so it tried to revive itself in the wrong direction. Big specialty machines, redemption junk, and a lack of genre diversity.

[brad808]

"Insert Coin to CONTINUE .... " that killed the Arcade for me.

This actually kills a lot of games for me in mame as well. I try to disable continues as much as possible to keep these games fun for me. I cant find anything fun about a game that you cant lose at. The exception to this being games like ghouls n ghosts where you can continue but you start at the begining of the level again not just where you died.

[Dude111]

When they started ading these newer trash games (Fighting,etc) and removing the GOOD GAMES from the 80s is when it was ruined for me!!

What happend to the good days we remember??

[Mikezilla]

I love that he is hostile, cause I totally agree with him, it saves me the time of typing my posts out as well. Its all an age thing. Aside from pac-man and MAYBE Galaga, if I have my older cousins over, everyone wants to play the games that Donk listed: TMNT, the Street Fighters, the Marvel vs, Simpsons, MK's etc.

I trip out sometimes because I have never even played some of the games you guys have mentioned. Centipede of course, but moon patrol? Im also going to get ostracized(sp) for this, but, I fired up Donkey Kong on the cab last night, and you know what? It was boring. I barely got past the first level and was bored with it. Same with pac-man, or all the other games where the only point is the high score. I understand why most of you like them, but its just not the case for me. Its like I want to like em because they are classic, but man. Some of those obscure games are just not fun to play to me. 

[scofthe7seas]

I could name 50 more great early 80's games no problem.

I call shenanigans.

Read Van Burnham's Supercade and you will see the folly of your claim of shenanigans.

There were tons of fun and unique games in the golden age.

 

I wasn't disagreeing with the fact that there may (or may not) be 50 more early 80s arcade classics, so much as I was calling him out on not being able to name 50 more. (at least not without looking them up)

[Xiaou2]

I grew up in the height of the Arcades.  Arcades here were huge and numerous, and had all the classics.  Some of the best times of my life back then.

 At that time however, I was so young and not very good at those games.. so playtimes were short, and money went fast. (luckily it was mostly parents money)

 Unlike some of the stubborn guys here, I change with the times, and actually got into the fighters as well.  But only so far...  SF's, MK until it went 3d, Tekken 3, and probably my top fav, ..Killer Instinct 1.   The other cartoon superhero games held no real interest to me.  To me, they were just way too "over the top".

 A lot of things killed it for me.  Firstly, it was the 3d games before 3d was really a valid option.  Virtual fighter for example, to me was horrendous looking... and there were a lot worse out there. And then every game started coming out in 3d, and the look and playability started to suffer.

 Sure, I loved Ridge Racer, and Daytona USA... but they at had great gameplay.  It seems like shortly after those, all the big racers and large games dropped all challenge, and thus fun.  Most race games, in addition to being dead easy, wouldnt even allow you to crash.  Games like Alpine Racer, had Zero gameplay or challenge, and was merely an expensive gimmick that got played maybe twice by the same person at most. (it also looked like crap)  These cost the Arcade ops tons of money, and they took a huge hit for it.
 
 And finally, there was the Quarter munchers.  You could continue till the end of the game... and then, people would almost never play it again.  Again, no real challenge when you can always continue.  (as stated the exception being GnG, as its supreme difficulty level, and restart of the level )

 With an arcade full of quarter munchers, muncher gun games, fighters that got too complex & or outlandish (or take your money too quickly cause the games cheap or the opps are too skilled), racing games that were not fun, expensive gimmick games with no gameplay, and skill-less jackpot ticket machines... the arcades were pretty much doomed.

 With home systems giving a much better bang, often with better designed games (especially when the "Gimmick Phase" was in swing), and even sometimes more originality... what was left?

 
 The original classic model, where games were actually challenging, was a much better model.  The games were easy sometimes easy to pick up, gave you a little bit of a chance... but then very difficult to master and play on for a period of time.  The level of difficulty progression, was much more finely tuned.  They really drew you in, got your blood pumpin, then hooked you good.  You could play casually, or get down to serious business.. and rock the thing... and either way still feel good about it, and come back for more.

 Many classic games were so good, and satisfying.. that the Arcade Ops didnt need to take them offline / replace them.  (Of course, there was a boon of low quality games that made it through too)  Soon the arcade companies were 'crashing', because the lack of new orders.  The crash wasnt the arcades.  It was the companies that made the games.

[Donkbaca]

Mikezilla - we just don't get it.  We were born too late and missed the love moon patrol gene.

Like I said, just pay the attention to the posts around here.  If fighters suck so bad, then why do 90% of the cabs built have a SF layout?

If robotron sucks so bad, why are there endless discussions of the need for 2 sticks so that people can play it, and countless WTB Wico sticks for Robotron?

Why do people want a spinner?  To play Tempest and Tron.  You take away those two games, very, few people would get a spinner I suspect.  Very, very few people put a spinner on their cab to play so they can play arkanoid.  Not saying people don't play arkanoid, or that its not a fun game, its just not a destination game.  People don't see my cab and say, "oh man, does that thing play arkanoid!"

Same for moon patrol.  Never saw a thread that said "what is the best stick for moon patrol"

Donkey Kong (I find it a bit boring too, but mostly because its so hard and I suck at it)  IS a destination game.  Pac Man is, Galaga is, Defender is, Asteroids is, Tempest is.  Centipede, is NOT.  People mostly get trackballs to play Marble Madness, Golden tee, Crystal Castle.

There are some 90s arcade games I LOVE, like Final Fight.  Love that game, that is one of my top three favorite games of all time, but am I going to say that it is a uber-great game that everyone should love and resepect?  No, its a pretty linear beat-em up, nothing really all that special, I just like it.  A lot of the "Good Games" from the 80's are universally loved, regardless of when you grew up.  The others, come on, just admit it, in retrospect, they aren't that good.  

[Mikezilla]

Mikezilla - we just don't get it.  We were born too late and missed the love moon patrol gene.

Like I said, just pay the attention to the posts around here.  If fighters suck so bad, then why do 90% of the cabs built have a SF layout?

If robotron sucks so bad, why are there endless discussions of the need for 2 sticks so that people can play it, and countless WTB Wico sticks for Robotron?

Why do people want a spinner?  To play Tempest and Tron.  You take away those two games, very, few people would get a spinner I suspect.  Very, very few people put a spinner on their cab to play so they can play arkanoid.  Not saying people don't play arkanoid, or that its not a fun game, its just not a destination game.  People don't see my cab and say, "oh man, does that thing play arkanoid!"

Same for moon patrol.  Never saw a thread that said "what is the best stick for moon patrol"

Donkey Kong (I find it a bit boring too, but mostly because its so hard and I suck at it)  IS a destination game.  Pac Man is, Galaga is, Defender is, Asteroids is, Tempest is.  Centipede, is NOT.  People mostly get trackballs to play Marble Madness, Golden tee, Crystal Castle.

There are some 90s arcade games I LOVE, like Final Fight.  Love that game, that is one of my top three favorite games of all time, but am I going to say that it is a uber-great game that everyone should love and resepect?  No, its a pretty linear beat-em up, nothing really all that special, I just like it.  A lot of the "Good Games" from the 80's are universally loved, regardless of when you grew up.  The others, come on, just admit it, in retrospect, they aren't that good.  

Yup, youre right, we just dont have that gene.

Haha I love final fight too! And alien vs predator, and even the punisher game is pretty cool.

Couldnt agree more with everything you said. I have never even played Arkanoid.

[Bootay]

Mikezilla and Donk: I don't think that you two "don't get it". And I don't think that because you are younger you don't know what you are talking about. Younger people ARE less fond of the oldies though and that's to be expected. Just like when I show my 12 year old son my Atari 2600 games. He is like "uhhh that's nice...can I play the 360 now?"..

I personally like Moon Patrol but I also played it a lot back when it was a new game. You tend to like games based on what you played. If you didn't play a lot of Moon Patrol growing up, chances are you aren't going to give a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about it.

Like I said before, I like all games from all eras of gaming. I can put SF2 as a classic just as much as I can put Ms. Pac-Man personally.

Oh...and I also am a big fan of Final Fight. But I also love all the repetitive brawlers of the 80s-90s.

[Xiaou2]

I never cared much for Centipede or Moon Patrol back in the day.  Still, I do fire them up occasionally.  Arkaniod?  I used to play it often at the arcades.  I sucked at it, but always had fun playing it.   Its def not pong, its more in line with breakout.. but the experience is far superior.  No other breakout clone that Ive ever played, has been as satisfying as Arkanoid. (and Ive played so many of them throughout the yrs)

 As for the 90s being better.. thats really a stretch.  Theres so many great challenging and fun 80s games that just knock the pants off most of the 90s games.

 And this coming from a guy that Likes fighters.

[Vigo]

Who didn't catch Moon Patrol Fever? Every cool Kid in the 80's was sure to have a moon patrol lunch box.  

[scofthe7seas]

Who didn't catch Moon Patrol Fever? Every cool Kid in the 80's was sure to have a moon patrol lunch box.  

One time I had Moon Patrol Fever. Temperature of 104, hospitalized for two weeks; had to get a tracheotomy.

[yotsuya]

I'm going to have to disagree with Donk about Centipede not being a classic. Whenever anyone sees the trackball on my cab, the first thing they always ask is if they can play Centipede. It also seems to be very popular with the ladies, as well.

[Donkbaca]

Yeah, then they play it for like 5 minutes and ask what else you got....

[Bootay]

Yea my wife and all of her friends also love Centipede.

But what I think everyone is missing is, just because you personally don't like a game doesn't mean it's not a classic. I am not a big fan of The Rolling Stones but I would definitely say they are classic rock. I don't like "Gone with the Wind" but I would definitely list it as a classic movie. Defining a classic to me simply means that a lot of people were/are fond of it. Sure, interest in Moon Patrol and Arknoid has waned among your common gamers, but back in the day they were pretty big and popular games. Not on the same level as Pac-Man or Donkey Kong  but still popular. And the people who liked those games back then still like them today. And I would definitely list Centipede as a classic and I never really liked it.

[Donkbaca]

Define classic, other than "I played it when I was a kid"

[Donkbaca]

Define classic, other than "I played it when I was a kid".

To me a classic would seem to have some sort of intrinsic quality that spans generations.  Sinatra is classic, because everyone from my grandpa to my 22 month old daughter loves him.

If something is old and not unviersally liked, its not a classic, its a novelty or a niche product.

Centipede was fun when I was a kid because it had a trackball, and trackballs are fun to spin.  Its not that great of a game, its a novelty.

[yotsuya]

I can assure you they spend more than 5 minutes playing Centipede.

[scofthe7seas]

Alright then, if we're going to be like this :

adj \ˈkla-sik\
Definition of CLASSIC
1
a : serving as a standard of excellence : of recognized value <classic literary works>
b : TRADITIONAL, ENDURING <classic designs> c : characterized by simple tailored lines in FASHION year after year <a classic suit>
2
: of or relating to the ancient Greeks and Romans or their culture : CLASSICAL
3
a : historically memorable <a classic battle> b : noted because of special literary or historical associations <Paris is the classic refuge of expatriates>


By these definitions, pretty much whatever anybody here thinks a classic is or isn't is true.

[Bootay]

Donk & scofthe7seas: Yea, well there you go...no one is right. It is all opinion.  
But "3. a. historically memorable" would go back to "whatever you enjoyed in your youth". Any game you played a lot as a kid would be to you "historically memorable" right?

PBJ: LOL

[scofthe7seas]

That's what I mean. Everything. Everything everybody is saying is true.
Something awesome throughout time : classic.
Something awesome during its specific time  : classic

Everybody wins!

[Vigo]

That's what I mean. Everything. Everything everybody is saying is true.
Something awesome throughout time : classic.
Something awesome during its specific time  : classic

Everybody wins!

Does that make Snacks 'n Jackson a classic?

[scofthe7seas]

Is it generally agreed that Snacks'n Jackson is awesome?
I think this could probably be up for debate.

I like it well enough

But honestly, I'm down with any game that has a creepy stretchy/floaty clown head that can accidentally eat soap before his nose explodes through a window.

[saint]

Mikezilla - we just don't get it.  We were born too late and missed the love moon patrol gene.

Like I said, just pay the attention to the posts around here.  If fighters suck so bad, then why do 90% of the cabs built have a SF layout?

Maximum flexibility. With the SF layout you can play all the classics as well.

If robotron sucks so bad, why are there endless discussions of the need for 2 sticks so that people can play it, and countless WTB Wico sticks for Robotron?

Gah, who said Robotron sucks? Blasphemy!

Why do people want a spinner?  To play Tempest and Tron.  You take away those two games, very, few people would get a spinner I suspect.  Very, very few people put a spinner on their cab to play so they can play arkanoid.  Not saying people don't play arkanoid, or that its not a fun game, its just not a destination game.  People don't see my cab and say, "oh man, does that thing play arkanoid!"

You're just wrong on that one. You may not like Arkanoid, but it gets lots of love at my house, and I'm talking my kids. I wouldn't rank it in their top 10, but probably in their top 50.

The others, come on, just admit it, in retrospect, they aren't that good.  

Gonna have to agree to disagree. I *like* Moon Patrol, Kangaroo, and others I get aren't on your list.

[saint]

Define classic, other than "I played it when I was a kid"

Never going to get a definition that satisifes everyone. Best metric I know of right now is VAPS/KLOV. Even that data is only as good as people who put into it, which I suspect is older folks so is weighted heavier towards games we're calling classics that you don't agree with. Still, barring better metrics, here's Moon Patrol for instance:

--------------------------------------------
There are 7,416 members of the Video Arcade Preservation Society / Vintage Arcade Preservation Society, 4,504 whom participate in our arcade census project of games owned, wanted, or for sale. Census data currently includes 73,089 machines (4,178 unique titles).

Very Common - There are 223 known instances of this machine owned by Moon Patrol collectors who are members. Of these, 142 of them are original dedicated machines, 5 of them are conversions in which game circuit boards (and possibly cabinet graphics) have been placed in (and on) another game cabinet, and 76 of them are only circuit boards which a collector could put into a generic case if desired.

For Sale - There are 11 VAPS members with Moon Patrol machines for sale. There are 11 VAPS members with extra Moon Patrol circuit boards for sale. VAPS members are totally independent of VAPS and the International Arcade Museum, and we are unable to recommend, endorse, or guarantee any person or company selling games or game parts.

Wanted - Very Popular - There are 25 VAPS members currently looking for Moon Patrol.

This game ranks a 84 on a scale out of 100 (100 = most often seen, 1=least common) in popularity based on census ownership records.

This game ranks a 54 on a scale out of 100 (100 = most often wanted, 1=least common) in popularity based on census want list records.
---------------------------------------

Centipede

---------------------------------------
Very Common - There are 621 known instances of this machine owned by Centipede collectors who are members. Of these, 560 of them are original dedicated machines, 7 of them are conversions in which game circuit boards (and possibly cabinet graphics) have been placed in (and on) another game cabinet, and 54 of them are only circuit boards which a collector could put into a generic case if desired.

For Sale - There are 34 VAPS members with Centipede machines for sale. There are 34 VAPS members with extra Centipede circuit boards for sale. VAPS members are totally independent of VAPS and the International Arcade Museum, and we are unable to recommend, endorse, or guarantee any person or company selling games or game parts.

Wanted - Very Popular - There are 36 VAPS members currently looking for Centipede. There is one VAPS member looking for a Centipede circuit board set.

This game ranks a 99 on a scale out of 100 (100 = most often seen, 1=least common) in popularity based on census ownership records.

This game ranks a 70 on a scale out of 100 (100 = most often wanted, 1=least common) in popularity based on census want list records.
------------------------------------

Edit - added some emphasis

[saint]

Mikezilla - we just don't get it.  We were born too late and missed the love moon patrol gene.

Like I said, just pay the attention to the posts around here.  If fighters suck so bad, then why do 90% of the cabs built have a SF layout?

By the way, I don't think fighters suck from a perspective of were/are they popular. Of course they're popular. I think fighters suck personally, as in I don't enjoy them.

[scofthe7seas]

Never going to get a definition that satisifes everyone.

I have a feeling you're responding to individual posts as you make your way down..

[Vigo]

Is it generally agreed that Snacks'n Jackson is awesome?
I think this could probably be up for debate.

I like it well enough

But honestly, I'm down with any game that has a creepy stretchy/floaty clown head that can accidentally eat soap before his nose explodes through a window.

Well, I'm sure for a span of 3 minutes Snacks 'n Jackson was all the rage at the arcade.  Besides, when you put it that way, how can it not be a classic? 

[saint]

To me a classic would seem to have some sort of intrinsic quality that spans generations.  Sinatra is classic, because everyone from my grandpa to my 22 month old daughter loves him.

So trying to use your definition what a classic is as something that stands the test of time:

Moon Patrol was re-released for various platforms in:

1997
1999
2003

Can be played on your cell phone:
http://wireless.ign.com/articles/424/424306p1.html

Was being requested for Xbox Live Arcade
http://forums.xbox.com/5/31823713/ShowPost.aspx

Can be played online today in 2011:
http://www.classicgamesarcade.com/game/21619/Moon-Patrol.html
http://www.onlinegames.net/games/617/moon-patrol.html
(Both implementations kind of stink though)

And something I didn't know, Moon Patrol was the first it seems to have parallax scrolling!
http://www.gamesradar.com/f/gamings-most-important-evolutions/a-20101008102331322035/p-3

"Games like ActRaiser and Street Fighter II took the innovations pioneered by Moon Patrol and used them to create detailed, multi-layered backdrops and, in SFII’s case, 3D-looking floors that would actually shift slightly to match your perspective of the action. "

===============================

Does that meet the test of time?

[yotsuya]

I personally have Moon Patrol on my cab, but I got hooked on the game through the 2600 version, not the arcade one. It's still a lot of fun.

And I would think anyone between 30-45 would consider Centipede a classic arcade game, whether they played it or not.

[CheffoJeffo]

I wasn't disagreeing with the fact that there may (or may not) be 50 more early 80s arcade classics, so much as I was calling him out on not being able to name 50 more. (at least not without looking them up)

Then you don't know tok very well -- he's not the kind of guy who posts "What was this game?" questions.

 

[scofthe7seas]

I wasn't disagreeing with the fact that there may (or may not) be 50 more early 80s arcade classics, so much as I was calling him out on not being able to name 50 more. (at least not without looking them up)

Then you don't know tok very well -- he's not the kind of guy who posts "What was this game?" questions.

 

That's surely true. I was mostly basing my comment on my own absolute inability to do so. Hmmm. I think I might be able to stand by my point of him naming 50 "great" games from the 80s. Some of them will have to be questionable for their greatness. Though there is the book you mentioned... I stand by my assumption. A challenge is posed! Although that is obviously for a different topic/thread.

[DNA Dan]

Well one things for sure, SFII killed Marble Madness II. 

[TOK]

That's surely true. I was mostly basing my comment on my own absolute inability to do so. Hmmm. I think I might be able to stand by my point of him naming 50 "great" games from the 80s. Some of them will have to be questionable for their greatness. Though there is the book you mentioned... I stand by my assumption. A challenge is posed! Although that is obviously for a different topic/thread.

Cheffo, thanks for the support!

scofthe7seas, I probably can't name all 50 States but I assure you I can name 50 great 80's games. 
Problem is that there is no way you can verify I'm not cheating without coming over and having a beer while I do it live. You're welcome to do so anytime!

[TOK]

 Unlike some of the stubborn guys here, I change with the times, and actually got into the fighters as well.  But only so far...

Hey Mr Change With The Times, hanging out on a forum where games from the 90's are considered new, how about sharing your thoughts on the newer Stern pins and digital pinball tables. 

[CheffoJeffo]

Hey Mr Change With The Times, hanging out on a forum where games from the 90's are considered new, how about sharing your thoughts on the newer Stern pins and digital pinball tables. 

[scofthe7seas]

 Unlike some of the stubborn guys here, I change with the times, and actually got into the fighters as well.  But only so far...

Hey Mr Change With The Times, hanging out on a forum where games from the 90's are considered new, how about sharing your thoughts on the newer Stern pins and digital pinball tables. 

Full body cast burn.

[Xiaou2]

Hey Mr Change With The Times, hanging out on a forum where games from the 90's are considered new, how about sharing your thoughts on the newer Stern pins and digital pinball tables.  LOL

 For one, Sterns Pins are not New technology.  They are a cheap rehash of old technology.

 But more to the point, 

 Just because I like games from all time periods, and all types of games... Doesnt mean I Like or Love EVERY game thats ever been produced.   Theres a lot of stinkers that managed to get released.

 As for Digital Pins, Ive played some good ones here and there.  But as Ive said, they dont compare to REAL tables in any way.   Just like playing super hangon, does not compare to racing a real motorcycle.

[Xiaou2]

Additionally...

 First, I will say that Ive not always been as open minded and mature about things.  This is something that age, experience, and choice to grow, have attributed to the different attitudes and opinions.

 Its more often than not, that a younger person will choose a certain time period as their own.  Weather its music, movies or games... they tend to be biased twords anything older that a certain point...  And, when they get older... may be biased towards things Newer.

 However, this has little to do with good reasoning. And more to do with an Image.  With Ego.

 We all know that music, is merely a bunch of notes played in time.   Theres nothing that makes it new or old.  The same composition played 100yrs ago on piano... could be played on a keyboard, and be enjoyed just as much...  because of the emotional content and beautiful arrangement / sounds.
 
 And Food?  Again, just a combination of ingredients.   Theres no New food.  Just different ways to mix it up.   There may be some older lost recipes that would be a Huge hit today, If it were released into the latest top restaurants.

 Where things get a little hazy, is the way certain technology is presented.

 For example, most would agree that they would rather watch a movie in Color instead of Black and White.

 But, a good judge will weigh the content, rather than just the media, or technological limitations.

 There are some Excellent B/W films.  Thought provoking, funny, emotional, etc.  Many of the good older films are being recycled into the new media formats, because the content is still relevant and is excellent material. Timeless.

 Someone I know said that anything that wasnt classic rock sucked.  Then later, I asked him if he liked Starwars.  He said yes.  I asked him to reconsider his obscene position on music, especially considering that Starwars has no classic rock in it.  Only Orchestral instrumentation.  He couldnt say anything.  Quite simply put, you wouldnt have the same movies, if classic rock was the only media for all movies background sound tracks.

 And while for example, I dont care much for country music... I can admire the individual instruments in the music.


 Like most things... the more depth of experience you have... the better a critic you will be.  If you have only ever eaten at fast food places... your opinions will be related to that. In that you will think that everything else is garbage, or cant possibly be better than what You have experienced.

 This is much more a better example with Media rather than food Obviously.  But the points the same.

 If you have only played 10 pinball machines in your life, with very little time on the machines... then your opinion will pale compared to a person who has played 60 machines, with yrs worth of playtime on them.   Quite simply put... you have a poor palette.  You cant possibly be a very good critic / judge.


 And then theres the Media nose-thumb syndrome...


 When I was a kid, and I first saw a Robotron machine... I thumbed my nose up at it... because at that time, there were far better looking and sounding games out there.  When I finally decided to play it, it was half hearted, and I was crushed in seconds... and so I walked away not really 'getting it'.   

 Much later, Smash TV came out, and to me, looked and sounded so much better than Robotron.   I enjoyed it a lot, thinking how much better a game this was, and how much more inferior RT was. 

 Years later, hen I met a guy who said Smash sucked compared to RT.  I couldnt believe the stuff he was saying about it.   So I went out, and found a guy who had a real RT cab.
This time, I wasnt a 7yr old poorly coordinated kid... and while the game really spanked me for some time... I started to get good.  I started to 'get it',  and understand why the Original was FAR superior to Smash.  And now I feel the same way.  I thumb my nose at Smash instead.

 RT is simply a better game.  Its AI is incredible.  The difficulty is crazy, and it makes you go into an adrenalin furry.  Theres near death escapes nearly every second of play, and you giggle like a kid, as you escape by a mere pixel, from a brilliantly impossible move.  The games balance is excellent.  While hard as heck, its possible to play for a very long time IF you collect enough points / humans.  The trained skilled efforts can pay off.

 Where as Smash, is more casual.  Its not as intense, and or it gets impossible... merely to suck quarters out of you.. because its a 'Continue' game.  Its nowhere near the adrenalin rush of the original.  Its not even half as good.

 (Much earlier before this, the two games I prejudged the worst were: Two Tigers and Mr Do.  Both of which my father Forced me to play with him.. and both of which quickly became two of my top favorites machines)


 And when you consider this, of how an older game (or any older media) can be superior in ways.. then you start to realize that you should give the older stuff (and new stuff too) a proper fair attitude and test.  Judging it on the most important things, such as Gameplay, and the feelings it may give you.


 While Asteriods Deluxe may not look that good... its a Timeless classic.  A classic, is a game that when you play it, its instantly recognized for its brilliance.  Not just because of the technology... but because of the gameplay.

 There certainly are some Over-Rated classics..  but you have to remember, that these were pioneers for their time.  Such as noted, Moon Patron having very cool Parallax scrolling layers, as well as a really groovy soundtrack.  The game plays pretty well too, however, its certainly not a top level game as far as gameplay is concerned.

 Karate Champ is nothing compared to Street Fighter II... However, it was more than likely a huge inspiration for it.  KC was a big hit in the arcades, and even was released to many computer platforms.   It is a Classic.  It was a revolution in fighting games, and its till fun to mess with to this date.

 War Gods, however, is Not a classic.  Even in 100 yrs, it wont be a classic.  It merely borrowed the same gameplay mechanics of other games, and it was never very popular. Its clunky and ugly.  (though sometimes its kinda funny)

 Centipede, while not being the 'best' classic, still Is a classic.  It was one of the most popular trackball games.  Its got solid action, and good unique control.  The sounds are really cool, it looks trippy, and it has a certain spirit to it that sucks you in. 

 Back in the Atari 2600 days, we had a trackball for the game, and played the thing for hours at a time... trying to roll the score.  It was pretty much a family battle, that lasted for some time.  No other 2600 game was played to this type of effect.

 Its not my top Fav, but its definitely a classic that does get played.

Its also extremely popular for all ages, as well as being one of few games that a lot of woman actually got into.

 
 Finally, a lot of these classics were meant to be played for 5 mins at a time.  You would get your 3 to 5 min of play, than move on to another one of the 100 machines there.  Certain games however, really grabbed you, and so you would play the damn thing till your pockets were empty.  It wasnt always about score, but just the experience of playing, and or getting to a higher level in the game.

[CCM]

Do you really expect people to read all of that...     

[Malenko]

Do you really expect people to read all of that...     

we never read it.

[Necro]

This time you actually should...he makes a few good points.  I'll actually read some of his rants in a different light now.

[Vigo]

X2 usually makes good points, even when I disagree. He just gets a D- on presentation since it can be a real chore to sift through his ramblings. Last time I attempted, he went into the physics of making love on a trampoline and how it relates to a quality arcade button. 

Anyway, I did read the Robotron part of his post, which I kinda agree with; that many 90's arcade goers would snub Robotron in favor of smash TV, and even though Robotron is a better game, players would not know since they don't give it a fair shake. The only difference is that I still see Smash TV as a very good game as well, especially since it is multiplayer and the theme is very unique. Also, unlike Robotron, Smash TV does not make you want to punch the arcade cabinet with your face. 

[Donkbaca]

I like smash TV better

[Xiaou2]

Thanks Necro.

  But to be fair, I do still like Smash TV.  Its just that if I want to play a game that is Robotron-esc... its going to be Robotron +95% of the time.  Much like how Id play Asteroids Deluxe +98% more than Blasteriods (or any other Asteroid clone.  Though, admittedly... the David Lee Roth asteroids is awesome for a few laughs & fun    )

 And while Smash does have 2 player simultaneous,  Its still more fun to me to play with my friends in 2 player alternation with Robotron.   Each watching the other pull off insane escapes in succession... egging each other on.

 I do like Smash concept, its quirky funny gameshow host, the prize pickups, powerups, and most importantly, seeing players get blown out of the screen from a landmine...

 But anyone who spends more than an hour playing Robotron (with the proper Wico 8way leaf sticks), who really gets to understand how it plays, the little tricks, and ability to get past like 9 stages.. will always choose Robotron for their future Adrenalin packed fix.

 If only Smash was made with smaller characters, better AI, and more balanced difficulty.. it would have potential to dethrone the champ.  (ohh, and limited continues too)

Donkbaca is Obviously one of those 90s gamers who is stuck in his ways... and too afraid of being proven wrong about Smash being the worse game 

 Its ok though, cause there are countless others who will give it a fair shake, be enlightened, and have superior enjoyment as a result.

Smash TV does not make you want to punch the arcade cabinet with your face.

 Heh.  For me, I dont get angry when I lose... with exception to something like Rtype, which sets you back underpowered at the set point of an impossible level. (impossible for my skill level at least)

 For me, you take the extreme highs of the constant "WIN" of survival, with the higher stress levels and crushing defeats.

 Without it, such as with smash... it just gets boring after a while, so you walk away cause you really just dont care or desire to play anymore.  Its like driving a Bus -vs- driving a Ferrari.  One is a means to get somewhere... while one is a real memorable experience filled with a lot of close calls, stories, and blood pumping adrenalized fun.

 Gauntlet w/ 4 players is sort like that too.  It starts off being fun and interesting... but eventually it just become a boring 'job' of a game.  With infinite continues and limited challenge... it lifelessly fizzles out.   Even the later 3d remakes of it didnt really improve upon its standings much.

[Malenko]

But anyone who spends more than an hour playing Robotron (with the proper Wico 8way leaf sticks), who really gets to understand how it plays, the little tricks, and ability to get past like 9 stages.. will always choose Robotron for their future Adrenalin packed fix.

I fit that description except the part where you pigeon hole me into always choosing Robotron. Variety is the spice of life.

Donkbaca is Obviously one of those 90s gamers who is stuck in his ways... and too afraid of being proven wrong about Smash being the worse game 

DoDonPaca isnt stuck in his ways like other certain death punching Xouches. I love how you mix your sentence with "Prove" implying fact and "Worse" implying opinion. Because someones opinion is different it doesnt make them wrong.


In my opinion every thread X2 posts in turds into ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. (u c wut I did thar?)



Also, had the house warming, arcade games were a hit. Top 3 games: Ms.Pac man 57 plays, Frogger 26 plays, Killer Instinct 1 with 22 plays each (timber a distant 4th with 12 plays)  The dedicated Umk3 got a crapton of plays because it was non stop versus matches. Top score in MsPac was 30,560 in case you wonderig the caliber of players (most were in the 9-15k range)  I did not reset the play counters on the other MAME machine but I saw a lot of puzzloop, super puzzle fighter, and Ms Pacman on it too

[Donkbaca]

I never really got too much into UMK3, I never got the hang of the RUN button, gonna revisit that one some more.

I can't believe Centipede wasn't on the top 5 games considering how amazingly awesome it is.... (sarcasm)

I like smash tv better, because Robotron doesn't have "Big Money... Big.. Prizes!!!"

[scofthe7seas]

I like smash tv better, because Robotron doesn't have "Big Money... Big.. Prizes!!!"

I've always been a Total Carnage kind of guy. Smash Tv doesn't have an M. Bison-esque dictator that shouts "Chebeda-ba-de-baba! HAHAHAA YOU SUCK AT THIS GAME!"

[Malenko]

I never really got too much into UMK3, I never got the hang of the RUN button, gonna revisit that one some more.

I can't believe Centipede wasn't on the top 5 games considering how amazingly awesome it is.... (sarcasm)

I like smash tv better, because Robotron doesn't have "Big Money... Big.. Prizes!!!"

No trackball = no centipede play. I'd buy that for a dollar.  Most of the UMK3 play was because the MAMEs were taken and because I was running the Zeus hack. I haven't had the time or money to order the juggernaut hack from hobbyroms.com yet.

[Donkbaca]

One of these days I'll have to send you a PM re UMK3 so I can figure it out more.

[Mikezilla]

I'd buy that for a dollar

Yeah a Robocop quote!!!  Love that movie.

[Xiaou2]

DoDonPaca isnt stuck in his ways like other certain death punching Xouches. I love how you mix your sentence with "Prove" implying fact and "Worse" implying opinion. Because someones opinion is different it doesnt make them wrong.

 I was just messin round with the class clown Punk.  Dont get your panties in a twist Melena.

 

One of these days I'll have to send you a PM re UMK3 so I can figure it out more.

 Itz calld  "SKILLZ".   EEvr u haZ Dem, or u doznt... aNd needZ 2 practiZe morre...
morre, morrrre, morrrrrrdel kommmbattttttttttt

[Donkbaca]

What's the best umk3 version?

[Malenko]

I was just messin round with the class clown Punk.  Dont get your panties in a twist Melena.

You mean Mileena? Ironically my fave char in MKII

Itz calld  "SKILLZ".   EEvr u haZ Dem, or u doznt... aNd needZ 2 practiZe morre...
morre, morrrre, morrrrrrdel kommmbattttttttttt

Sadly, that's the most coherent thing you've ever typed on this forum, ever; and most likely the most accurately spelled as well.

What's the best umk3 version?

Well in MAME, I like the Juggernaut's Hack, its UMK3 Version 1.2 but with Human Smoke and Noob Saibot selectable on the player select screen. Its just like the Zeus hack, but you don't loose Shang Tsung or Stryker. I prefer MKT to UMK3, its the same junk but with more characters

[Vigo]

Itz calld  "SKILLZ".   EEvr u haZ Dem, or u doznt... aNd needZ 2 practiZe morre...
morre, morrrre, morrrrrrdel kommmbattttttttttt

Sadly, that's the most coherent thing you've ever typed on this forum, ever; and most likely the most accurately spelled as well.

[Xiaou2]

Ohh Yes Melinda, ohh, you really burned me! 
Spellality?

 Or maybe its  OCDallity?

 Or Patheticallity?

 Ahh well, keep trying buffy.  Maybe one day you will get it...

[saint]

You guys get a room!

[Malenko]

Ohh Yes Melinda, ohh, you really burned me! 
Spellality?

 Or maybe its  OCDallity?

 Or Patheticallity?

 Ahh well, keep trying buffy.  Maybe one day you will get it...

Why are you doubling the Ls? Its not Fatallity or baballity. Spellingality!

Here Xiaou2, just for you:

*


















*I dont really want to be your friend

[scofthe7seas]

Actually, all kidding aside, it really WAS a child molester that killed the arcade I used to visit in Houston.

This is EXACTLY why they get shanked in prison. And the child molesting thing.