Its Here: Ultimarc AimTrak Light Gun Module

[Epyx]

I know

I was answering bkenobi...not sure what he meant by only two buttons...

[Ginsu Victim]

I know, I was adding to your answer, plus questioning the additional six buttons.

[Epyx]

Lol...gotcha...sorry haven't finished my morning coffee yet...im slow ok?!

[ZeroPoint]

I implemented a change which should work for off-screen reload. When off screen, the gun sends co-ords of (0,max) but only sends when the trigger is pulled, so that it does not interfere with the PC mouse when off-screen.

This will go in the first version as we wont be sending out any until Monday.

Andy

Excellent.

The good thing is that there would be no need for setting "offscreen reload" in mame using a second button (that doesn´t really work in some games).

The bad thing about this is that not all games uses offscreen reload. What about games that doesn´t support this ? Games that needs a second button for reload and you still want to shoot offscreen (to reload)!?

I suggest a few seconds timeout before releasing the mouse making it possible to offscreen reload in games like HOD if you f.ex. select mouse button 2 in "TRIG" input in "Button Assignment Offscreen".

There should also be possible to turn "offscreen reload" on and off and to select x and y offscreen coordinates (where the mouse pointer moves for offscreen reload):

With "offscreen reload" ON, the "TRIG" button (in "Button Assignment Offscreen") and offscreen coordinates are reported anytime regardless of the timeout when shooting offscreen. Setting the same button in "Button Assignment" and "Button Assignment Offscreen" for this for simplicity and the possibility to select another button for "offscreen reload" together with offscreen coordinates.

With "offscreen reload" OFF, no offscreen coordinates are sent, mouse buttons are reported within the timeout period, gamepad buttons can be reported anytime. Very useful together with "troubleshooter".


What I mean with "Button Assignment Offscreen":

Each button have two functions. One while tracking is active "Button Assignment" and another pointing offscreen "Button Assignment Offscreen". That would give 14 user selectable inputs. 7 onscreen and 7 offscreen. The "Offscreen" function could be mouse buttons (within the timeout period) or gamepad buttons and full throw axis (hopefully) for navigation and other stuff. The "TRIG" input in "Button Assignment Offscreen" selects what button is pressed together with offscreen coordinates when "offscreen reload" is ON.


Another thing: What about selecting if the gun should move the mouse pointer or analog gamepad axis. The old xbox lightgun works like this. My ThrustMaster Beretta uses 65536 analog positions in each axis. I have tested this gun in Terminator 2 in mame and it works very well. The calibration procedure can be the same (in mouse mode). When leaving calibration mode it could switch back to either Gamepad or Mouse mode. Pointing at screen center = gamepad in center.


I hope this is understandable. A little hard to explain.  

[Ginsu Victim]

I agree with this part:

 

[syph007]

I ended up impulse buying the act lab guns yesterday.  I guess it's one day shipping since they just showed up.  I thought they'd feel like junk since they were 20 bucks a piece, but they feel pretty decent.  Good trigger and there is a clickable button on the back for a reload and a slider switch on the side though I'm not sure what it's original intended for.  The front barrel opening also looks plenty big enough.  Will be hacking Andy's new gadgets into these as soon as they get here!

Cheers!

[bkenobi]

I read the specs yesterday, but missed where it said 6 buttons.  I did see where they could be defined in software which is why I was confused.   

Anyway, cool beans!

[Epyx]

Syph007,

Can you measure the diameter of that barrel hole by chance?  Just curious as I am contemplating the Nerf ones as well.

[Cananas]

I implemented a change which should work for off-screen reload. When off screen, the gun sends co-ords of (0,max) but only sends when the trigger is pulled, so that it does not interfere with the PC mouse when off-screen.

This will go in the first version as we wont be sending out any until Monday.

Andy

Excellent.

The good thing is that there would be no need for setting "offscreen reload" in mame using a second button (that doesn´t really work in some games).

The bad thing about this is that not all games uses offscreen reload. What about games that doesn´t support this ? Games that needs a second button for reload and you still want to shoot offscreen (to reload)!?

I suggest a few seconds timeout before releasing the mouse making it possible to offscreen reload in games like HOD if you f.ex. select mouse button 2 in "TRIG" input in "Button Assignment Offscreen".

There should also be possible to turn "offscreen reload" on and off and to select x and y offscreen coordinates (where the mouse pointer moves for offscreen reload):

With "offscreen reload" ON, the "TRIG" button (in "Button Assignment Offscreen") and offscreen coordinates are reported anytime regardless of the timeout when shooting offscreen. Setting the same button in "Button Assignment" and "Button Assignment Offscreen" for this for simplicity and the possibility to select another button for "offscreen reload" together with offscreen coordinates.

With "offscreen reload" OFF, no offscreen coordinates are sent, mouse buttons are reported within the timeout period, gamepad buttons can be reported anytime. Very useful together with "troubleshooter".

There is no need to go so far.

Andy, you could implement an option like shoot offscreen asign to... similar to the existing in the LCDTopGun driver, with two options:

 A) shoot (trigger) at 0,max
 B) push other selected button

With option A selected, mame can reload shooting offscreen without -offscreen reload enabled .

With option B selected and button 2 mapped to it, you could reload shooting offscreen in games supported by Troubleshooter. BUT, it will work also in MAME using the option -offscreen reload. (remember that this option of MAME remap a mouse button 2 to => set coord (0,max) + push mouse button 1 (trigger) -yes, like option A-. This is for compatibility with the actlabs guns.


So option A is only usefull to be safety. Maybe one day the mameteam delete the -offscreen reload option.

In fact, actually, the best option for the LCDTopGun users is the option B. They can play all troubleshooter's supported games (HOD, HOD2, HOD3, VCOP, VCOP2,...) and mame with -offscreen reload enabled.


About games that uses a button to remap, this is no problem for option B

And Terminator 2, Operation thunderbolt works perfectly in mame with correctly mapped configuration (no need to track like an analog joystick.

One last question. I assume that the AimTrak Light gun module will be Vista, Win7 64 compatible...

[syph007]

Syph007,

Can you measure the diameter of that barrel hole by chance?  Just curious as I am contemplating the Nerf ones as well.

Inner diameter is 3/4"

Edit: You'd think I would have checked the pcb width before I ordered these but I forgot to.  Just checked on the site and they are 0.6" wide, so should have no issues fitting... I hope.

[u_rebelscum]

A) shoot (trigger) at 0,max
 B) push other selected button

+1

A) is perfect for mame.  The -reloadoffscreen option sometimes (often?) is broken, and the arcade games expect this input anyway.

B) is for all the PC games.

[Dartful Dodger]

How could you connect this to say an airsoft gun? connect the QD to a microswitch and aim the button of the switch to where the trigger taps it?

Sorry I know thats probably a stupid question, but ive never really cracked open any guns.. arcade or otherwise.

There are no dumb questions, just dumb people.



This is something I want to know too.  It doesn't seem possible to put this in an air soft or other non electronic toy gun.

[Epyx]

Inner diameter is 3/4"

Edit: You'd think I would have checked the pcb width before I ordered these but I forgot to.  Just checked on the site and they are 0.6" wide, so should have no issues fitting... I hope.

Perfect, thanks! 

[TheShanMan]

Andy, this is awesome news. I have never given serious consideration to light guns because of all the trouble people have had. Looks like my collection of ultimarc products is about to grow. I'll be buying 2, though perhaps not immediately. I have a lot going on currently, and I'm waiting to see what you come up with in terms of shell options.

Ultimarc comes to the rescue again!

[drventure]

@DartfulDodger

Sure you can. It'll take a little more engineering, because yes, you'd have to adda  switch to the trigger, but that's one of the easiest bits to accomplish.

I'd really want it wireless, and doing THAT might take a lot more research.

[ZeroPoint]

There is no need to go so far.

It is really simple:

Assigning secondary buttons for offscreen use for all 7 buttons. (So the user can select another or the same for that matter). This may be useful for PC games that require more buttons for menu navigation etc. other than in-game controls.

The timeout suggestion is because Andy says the mouse must be released and therefor will not be able to send mouse button presses without sending coordinates anyway. A timeout is just inside the mcu and transparent to the user and just to prevent f.ex. right clicking at a certain coordinate after timeout. Pointing at the screen (IR) resets the timer and activates the mouse. A three to five second timeout should be more than enough time to reload. Within this time the last coordinates (offscreen reload off) or offscreen coordinates (offscreen reload on) are used together with the mouse button or no coordinates if a gamepad assigned button is pressed. The user will not notice this. The timeout is only for mouse functions and the gamepad function can still be used.

Tracking like an analog joystick is not really needed, but I can assure you it is really fun. Not specifically in mame, but any joystick game actually. The LCD TopGun 2 can do this. Just use an xbox to pc joystick adapter an try it. Unfortunately the TopGun2 uses 256 steps. My ThrustMaster Beretta is for CRT only and need special circuitry to work on a PC.

Not all games work with offscreen reload in mame. There have been some issues on this lately. It´s great that Andy implements this and hopefully this "B" mode also.

One last question. I assume that the AimTrak Light gun module will be Vista, Win7 64 compatible...

You´ll never know with Microsoft, , but unless they remove mouse and gamepad support it should work on any system I guess. 

[syph007]

In case anyone is interested, I cracked one open.  There is 2 inches of space in the barrel, plenty of room without having to hack anything out.   Trigger and back of gun switch each activate a small micorswitch.  I'll just solder on to those points and this should work no problems.

Cheers!

[Epyx]

Nice, and it looks like the existing cable is just plugged in and can be removed easily so you could always revert it back. Cool.

[Organic Jerk]

If everything works out, this is really AWESOME news!

It sucks that I had already spent money on EMS's product well before I finished my cab.

Looks like I might have to bite the bullet on that one, lol.

In case anyone is interested, I cracked one open.  There is 2 inches of space in the barrel, plenty of room without having to hack anything out.   Trigger and back of gun switch each activate a small micorswitch.  I'll just solder on to those points and this should work no problems.

Cheers!

So from your pics, am I to understand that the chip in that gun provides no purpose but to transmit the electrical impulse of the switches?  That we can use both that chip and the AimTrak together in the same gun?

[Dartful Dodger]

@DartfulDodger

Sure you can. It'll take a little more engineering, because yes, you'd have to adda  switch to the trigger, but that's one of the easiest bits to accomplish.

I'd really want it wireless, and doing THAT might take a lot more research.

The wireless option sounds perfect, but this all sounds too good to be true.

I was very disappointed when Foley got tagged.  I was looking forward to is sonic idea, but this new option sounds better all around.

My cab should be ready for a gun in a month or two(although, I've said that before), I'm hoping by then you guys will have blazed a trail by then.

[Ginsu Victim]

I'm thinking I might pick up a cheap NES Zapper this weekend, because I don't want to alter any of my current guns. I'll definitely do something about that "KA-PING!" trigger switch.

[bkenobi]

Has anyone considered using one of those Wii gun things that you stick the Wiimote into?  They are really cheap and already have an opening that would work for this.  I don't know if they would look like crap though since I haven't looked at them in person (just interweb pictures).

[Ginsu Victim]

I know what you're talking about, and without a Wiimote in them, they'd look kinda dumb. Plus, the AimTrak would be exposed without adding more material.

Also, a Nyko Perfect Shot is about $15, so for that much you can get a decent looking arcade-style gun, instead. I'd spend an extra $5 on an Act Labs gun.

[AndyWarne]

About the reload:
What is wrong with this (probably something):

If the trigger is set to button 1, it always presses button 2 in addition to button1 when clicked off-screen. (or it could be button .
Also, when clicked off-screen, it always sends (0,max) when the trigger is pulled.

Its not really desirable to need to reconfigure the gun for PC v Mame, but maybe this would cater for both.

The option of having it control the analog axes would be really easy to do. But I wont add this just now.

Yes it works in Vista / Windows 7.

[Cananas]

About the reload:
What is wrong with this (probably something):

If the trigger is set to button 1, it always presses button 2 in addition to button1 when clicked off-screen. (or it could be button .
Also, when clicked off-screen, it always sends (0,max) when the trigger is pulled.

Its not really desirable to need to reconfigure the gun for PC v Mame, but maybe this would cater for both.

Only problem I see is that you would need -offscreen_reload enabled in MAME to avoid problems in games that use the second button to launch missiles, grenades, etc. With this option enabled, mame remaps button2 to button3. But MAME would reload twice.

EDIT: Well, you could avoid this: with -offscreen_reload disabled and remapping those games manually.

One more thing. Aaron changed the behavior of offscreen_reload. If the mouse(lightgun) works in relative mode, this option will not work. The lightgun must work in absolute mode. This is why you can not reload pressing button2 (with -offscreen_reload enabled) with a tipical mouse.

Apart from that, -offscreen_reload works perfectly in all games that needs shoot offscreen to reload except one clone of Lethal Enforcers II, that needs set the pointer to (0,0).

If you want my experience: I have the "shootoffscreen to" option of LCDTopGun assigned to button2. With this, and with offscreen_reload enabled in MAME, we don't need reconfigure nothing. But it would be good the posibility to reonfigure, by the way.

[KonkeyKong]

not trolling....

but I was checking out hobbytron.com and a ton of their airsoft pistols are on sale for like 5 bucks or less.  Lots of sweet guns to gut.

[AndyWarne]

Only problem I see is that you would need -offscreen_reload enabled in MAME to avoid problems in games that use the second button to launch missiles, grenades, etc. With this option enabled, mame remaps button2 to button3. But MAME would reload twice.

EDIT: Well, you could avoid this: with -offscreen_reload disabled and remapping those games manually.

One more thing. Aaron changed the behavior of offscreen_reload. If the mouse(lightgun) works in relative mode, this option will not work. The lightgun must work in absolute mode. This is why you can not reload pressing button2 (with -offscreen_reload enabled) with a tipical mouse.

It works in absolute mode.
If the reload button were set to button 8, then it would never interfere with buttons used for other functions. But it would require manual reconfiguration of the reload button in these games. Or does the reload button have to be button 2?

[Epyx]

Has anyone considered using one of those Wii gun things that you stick the Wiimote into?  They are really cheap and already have an opening that would work for this.  I don't know if they would look like crap though since I haven't looked at them in person (just interweb pictures).

Actually, I just checked this out on my lunch break and they don't look bad at all...they could easily be disassembled and re-painted with better colours etc.  You might just want to build a cover for where the Wii slips in which shouldn't be hard to do with some ABS plastic etc.

The nerf gun section in the toystore had tons of options as well and most were cheap like Borscht.

[Cananas]

It works in absolute mode.
If the reload button were set to button 8, then it would never interfere with buttons used for other functions. But it would require manual reconfiguration of the reload button in these games. Or does the reload button have to be button 2?

Yep. The reload  button must be the button 2 (well, exactly must be the second button of the mouse -in MAME, the trigger button is mapped like button 0, so reload is Button 1-) for lightgun PC games and MAME with -offscreen_reload option enabled. Just call it: PC Lightgun games compatibility mode. If think all future lighgun pc games will have the same conf: First button=trigger, Second one=reload.

But who knows how will be those games in the future, so as I said before, it would be great the posibility to remap the shootoffscreen option...

Andy. Any test in 64 bits OS (winxp/vista,Win7)? It's clear that the future is MAME64. It would be a great feature that makes this gun definitely better than LCDTopGun...

[u_rebelscum]

About the reload:
What is wrong with this (probably something):

If the trigger is set to button 1, it always presses button 2 in addition to button1 when clicked off-screen. (or it could be button .
Also, when clicked off-screen, it always sends (0,max) when the trigger is pulled.

A few problems.

- Some PC games hardcode translating a button two press to reload, so youll need to send button 2.  Others don't need reload and use button two to launch grenade, etc instead.

- For these PC games, you'll also shoot.  So you might reload and shot once immediately, meaning you'll need to reload sooner, and your shot will go to 0,max, which is a miss and will decrease your score if accuracy counts. 
(Only mame translates button 2 to button 1 + 0,max, since that's how the arcades saw off screen shots, and only if -offscreen_reload is enabled and isn't broken.)

- In mame, you might have the opposite problem.  Besides reloading, you might shoot the grenade/etc (assuming -offscreen_reload is left disabled, and you wired the gun's second button to mouse button 2, and didn't remap mame).  At 0,max.  And grenades are more "costly"/limited than bullets.  To get around this, you'd need to wire the gun's second button to something besides mouse button 2, and remap all the games in mame to use that other button.  But with it wired to not B2, you can't use it to reload in the above hardcoded PC games.

- In mame, if you enable -offscreen reload, you might reload twice, or reload & also shoot once.


This reload headache is an issue due to the differences between how arcade games and PC games were coded.  (the respective games were coded for their respective guns, and the respective guns designed for their respective games.)  The whole reason -offscreen_reload was added to mame was because PC lightguns did not act like arcade lightguns.


Andy, AFAI can see you have four choices:

1. have the AimTrak act like all (other,cheap) PC lightguns and hope -offscreen_reload and all its headaches are good enough for mame users (aka screw mame).

2. set the aimTrak up like an arcade gun for mame, and screw the PC games.

3. try to find a middle ground, screwing both sides in some way(s)

4. let the user decide which way the AimTrack should lean.  Hopefully this can be changed easily, like the u360 mapping.  One worst case, the user has to choose which firmware to use, and is advised not to chande it too much do to multiwrite limits.  (The absolute worst would be having to buy a different model.)


I like ZeroPoint's option (a #4 variant): give all buttons a separate "offscreen" button output.  The user can set it to be the same as onscreen (aka arcade), or different.  The most used would be sending button 2 for trigger for "PC reload", but it could be anything, such as admin buttons, pause, ect. 

Or are we just spoiled with your ipac, U-HID, and especially u360 to expect a remap script to handle everything for us?

[jasonbar]

First of all: 

A quickie question that pertain if I hack these into an EMS TopGun II.

If I keep enough of the EMS TopGun II circuitry & guts in the guns to keep the recoil & laser functions intact, will that draw too much current away from your board & cause it to not work nominally?


Thanks,
-Jason

[chrisdfw]

This sounds like a very cool product.

Has anyone gotten 2 of them to work at the same time in a game so that two players can play co-op?

What games support that?

If all attached guns control the one mouse pointer, I am not sure how you could play more than one player at a time.

 

[Neverending Project]

This sounds like a very cool product.

Has anyone gotten 2 of them to work at the same time in a game so that two players can play co-op?

What games support that?

If all attached guns control the one mouse pointer, I am not sure how you could play more than one player at a time.

 

Quoting Andy from earlier in this thread:

On the subject of multiple guns, all guns will control the same mouse pointer, but software which reads the devices using DirectInput is able to read each device independently. Mame can do this.

[AndyWarne]

I like ZeroPoint's option (a #4 variant): give all buttons a separate "offscreen" button output.  The user can set it to be the same as onscreen (aka arcade), or different.  The most used would be sending button 2 for trigger for "PC reload", but it could be anything, such as admin buttons, pause, ect. 

Or are we just spoiled with your ipac, U-HID, and especially u360 to expect a remap script to handle everything for us?

Ok I will add separate settings for off-screen for all buttons. Not sure if I can fit all that into the one window in the app...

I will also make a change so that a button config can be downloaded separately from other settings, to allow for a future addition for downloading button configs. I could release the source and data format for this as well.

[AndyWarne]

First of all: 

A quickie question that pertain if I hack these into an EMS TopGun II.

If I keep enough of the EMS TopGun II circuitry & guts in the guns to keep the recoil & laser functions intact, will that draw too much current away from your board & cause it to not work nominally?


Thanks,
-Jason

It should be OK but a decent recoil solenoid really needs 12 volts or higher. The way it should work is the supply charges up a large capacitor and this is discharged through the solenoid when the trigger is pulled.

[smalltownguy]

The option of having it control the analog axes would be really easy to do. But I wont add this just now.

Does this mean that those of us who want to use this for Terminator 2 are out of luck?

Maybe I missed something about this providing a solution for analog and switch style shooters?

[bkenobi]

Wouldn't the T2 stick/gun be too close to the display for this to work?  It claims 2'+ in the specs, but last time I looked, I thought the T2 guns were like 1' or less from the glass.

[smalltownguy]

No, no, let me rephrase -- I don't want to retrofit this into a T2 gun, I just want this to be an easy solution for me (and my wife -- who loves T2) to be able to play T2 on our cab with light guns.

[jasonbar]

First of all: 

A quickie question that pertain if I hack these into an EMS TopGun II.

If I keep enough of the EMS TopGun II circuitry & guts in the guns to keep the recoil & laser functions intact, will that draw too much current away from your board & cause it to not work nominally?

Thanks,
-Jason

It should be OK but a decent recoil solenoid really needs 12 volts or higher. The way it should work is the supply charges up a large capacitor and this is discharged through the solenoid when the trigger is pulled.

Hi Andy-

You're probably thinking of a "real" arcade gun.  :]

Actually, the EMS TopGun II runs just off of the USB 5V supply.  The recoil is accomplished by spinning a rotary motor that drives a sprung rack & pinion.  When the pinion gets to the portion without teeth, the rack slams back for recoil.  There's (I assume) minimal circuitry controlling this, as all it has to do is run the motor for an instant each time the trigger is pulled.

On the bright side (pun intended), the laser pointer has a switch, so if using the laser sight on the TopGun II draws too much current, it can be turned off.  And, the recoil is also disableable, either by unplugging a portion of the cord or by installing a switch (shameless plug: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=93642.0).


Thanks!
-Jason

[Octo]

It doesn't seem possible to put this in an air soft or other non electronic toy gun.

It really wouldn't take much to gut either a spring or electric airsoft pistol and add the AimTrak and a microswitch. They also make electric blowback models that are already rigged to move the slide when the trigger is pulled.

Wish I hadn't given away all my airsoft guns earlier this year. My MP5-SD3 would have made a pretty sweet lightgun