Its Here: Ultimarc AimTrak Light Gun Module

[RetroDave]

Is there any delay before the cursor catches up to the guns actual target coordinates? Your gun seems to work on the same principal as the Wii and the TopGun II, both of which have a slight (but very noticeable/distracting) delay.

[Ginsu Victim]

Is there any delay before the cursor catches up to the guns actual target coordinates? Your gun seems to work on the same principal as the Wii and the TopGun II, both of which have a slight (but very noticeable/distracting) delay.

This is definitely a worry of mine, as well, and the reason why I avoided those other options. Hopefully Andy will get a video together soon, or at least answer that question. (It's 5:00 am in the UK right now, though, so don't expect an answer for a little while)

[DJ_Izumi]

Is there any delay before the cursor catches up to the guns actual target coordinates? Your gun seems to work on the same principal as the Wii and the TopGun II, both of which have a slight (but very noticeable/distracting) delay.

I think that this is infact standard on all light guns.  Even using the offical Namco Guncon and Guncon 2 there is a minor lag if you have a cursor.  It's not huge but you can notice that the cursor is draging slightly behind the motion of the gun.  I'm pretty sure that such lag is also featured in arcade light guns, it's just the nature of the technology.

[AndyWarne]

Is there any delay before the cursor catches up to the guns actual target coordinates? Your gun seems to work on the same principal as the Wii and the TopGun II, both of which have a slight (but very noticeable/distracting) delay.

No delay at all

[shardian]

Is there any delay before the cursor catches up to the guns actual target coordinates? Your gun seems to work on the same principal as the Wii and the TopGun II, both of which have a slight (but very noticeable/distracting) delay.

No delay at all

which brings us back to...

A video of it in action would be nice!!!

[FrizzleFried]

I have no time to come up with my own gun solution...so I can't wait for a plug-n-play version to be ready.  I'll buy a 2 gun set.

[AndyWarne]

I have implemented the "off-screen" button setting. The website page and screenshot of the app have been updated.

[Xiaou2]

 I have doubts to the accuracy of a system which has all the sensor leds
located in one central spot.

 Most LED solutions have LEDs spaced out on all sides of the display, so can
provide more accurate positional data.

 How is the accuracy maintained without multiple points spread out?

 I tell you... Ive bought poor accuracy guns before (act labs), and it made
the games unplayable.  I wont be doing that again.

 The LCD Topguns are good... but as said.. the distance thing is a bit of
a problem.


 I also agree, that the ability to use the guns for T2, as a realtime analog
joystick will be something desired.  Along with a Kit we can install which comes
with a 30+ volt recoil coil that actually interfaces with mames force feedback
system.

 
 Unlike Most games which recoil whenever there is a trigger press,
T2 has the game control the pulse frequency / speeds.  If a player gets a higher
powered gun.... the Pulses will be stronger and more rapid.  If the player
runs low on Ammo... the recoil force will be reduced, and the time between
recoil's is increased.   The game syncs the recoil with the onscreen action.
 
 I would say T2 is Very popular, even though its not a true lightgun game...
and so supporting it with true mame force feedback software hooks will
be Huge.  People will drop all other solutions in a heartbeat.

(The LCD Topguns realtime has lag... and their idea of using a motor for
recoil is horrible.  Needs to be a true arcade quality FFB system. The
topguns also did not use a "mame-hook" to interface with T2 properly)


 There are also other games which use coils in the guns, such as the Point Blanc
series, and more importantly, Time Crisis.

 Some of those input buttons you had made, could be used for changing the
guns modes:

 1) Cycle From 'precise absolute' to 'realtime mouse' to 'realtime analog joystick'
 2) Cycle modes from  'Dumb' recoil... to Mame-Hook... to complete off.


 I suppose a recoil system could have its own controls, separate from the gun itself.
And could be expanded to support other types and games and devices which
use force feedback.

 Qbert and Pinball knockers,  Outrun shaker motor (single directional motor which
moves a wheel assembly on a sliding track using a crank arm), cabinet lighting
systems (Spyhunter, Discs of Tron enviornmental),  and even dual motor
systems for motion cabinets like afterburner.

[FrizzleFried]

 I have doubts to the accuracy of a system which has all the sensor leds
located in one central spot.

 Most LED solutions have LEDs spaced out on all sides of the display, so can
provide more accurate positional data.

 How is the accuracy maintained without multiple points spread out?

 I tell you... Ive bought poor accuracy guns before (act labs), and it made
the games unplayable.  I wont be doing that again.

 The LCD Topguns are good... but as said.. the distance thing is a bit of
a problem.


 I also agree, that the ability to use the guns for T2, as a realtime analog
joystick will be something desired.  Along with a Kit we can install which comes
with a 30+ volt recoil coil that actually interfaces with mames force feedback
system.

 
 Unlike Most games which recoil whenever there is a trigger press,
T2 has the game control the pulse frequency / speeds.  If a player gets a higher
powered gun.... the Pulses will be stronger and more rapid.  If the player
runs low on Ammo... the recoil force will be reduced, and the time between
recoil's is increased.   The game syncs the recoil with the onscreen action.
 
 I would say T2 is Very popular, even though its not a true lightgun game...
and so supporting it with true mame force feedback software hooks will
be Huge.  People will drop all other solutions in a heartbeat.

(The LCD Topguns realtime has lag... and their idea of using a motor for
recoil is horrible.  Needs to be a true arcade quality FFB system. The
topguns also did not use a "mame-hook" to interface with T2 properly)


 There are also other games which use coils in the guns, such as the Point Blanc
series, and more importantly, Time Crisis.

 Some of those input buttons you had made, could be used for changing the
guns modes:

 1) Cycle From 'precise absolute' to 'realtime mouse' to 'realtime analog joystick'
 2) Cycle modes from  'Dumb' recoil... to Mame-Hook... to complete off.


 I suppose a recoil system could have its own controls, separate from the gun itself.
And could be expanded to support other types and games and devices which
use force feedback.

 Qbert and Pinball knockers,  Outrun shaker motor (single directional motor which
moves a wheel assembly on a sliding track using a crank arm), cabinet lighting
systems (Spyhunter, Discs of Tron enviornmental),  and even dual motor
systems for motion cabinets like afterburner.

Think about this... I have a 65" TV and the small little Wii bar across the top is TINY compared to the TV and guess what,  that Wiimote is pretty accurate.

[mvsfan]

I was also wondering about the off-screen reload and how it's handled...

Good question. Actually its not physically possible to move a mouse pointer outside the screen co-ordinates so I have no idea how this works. I can only assume it really means reload is "very near the edge of the screen".
Basically it should work if a mouse works. But if there is any special change needed the firmware is upgradeable so I can make changes if required. In fact to be honest I would expect tweaks will be needed as it the case with all new products.
I agree a video would be a great idea. I will look at this possibility.

On the subject of multiple guns, all guns will control the same mouse pointer, but software which reads the devices using DirectInput is able to read each device independently. Mame can do this.

one question about the guns acting like mice. How does that fare for mame 32? will anybody be able to close mame32 and do weird things with the interface like what i was getting with my trackball panel until i remapped some things?

or is their a way to limit gun mouse function to mame only?

thanks.

[Xiaou2]

pretty accurate and actually accurate are hugely different.

 IE:

 Someone is about to shoot you.  Yet, because the gun made your aim
go off by +3mm or more.. you get shot.

 Im sure there are those people who have terrible aim anyways, and
so wouldnt notice accuracy issues as much.   However, to those of us who are
skilled and have good aim... we cant stand when the equipment is what
caused the lost shots.   And when it happens about every 6 shots... that gets
old real quick.

[Ginsu Victim]

Bought a blue Lethal Enforcers SNES gun today, and now I just placed my order for an AimTrak! I can't wait! 

[swamprat96]

I've been waiting for this. Fantastic news and well done Andy. I think the price is spot on. Once this gets going I think its time lightguns had their own thread. There is already a ton of information in the main forum but with all the forseeable modded guns about to be built it makes sense to have a new thread on this topic. Maybe split it into child threads for act, Ems and Aimtrak? Bring all the old threads in so we have a one shop spot?

I'm now looking for an old upright cab with a big monitor. I plan to build a pump action shotgun, two pistols and two automatic machine guns with the idea I can swap weapons to suit the game being played. Probably just use a usb hub built onto the fron of the cab for easy changeover.

Off screen reload will be tricky as the last cab I did has PC games, mame and the sega emulator. But at last we have a proper solution. I'll be ordering 5 units in the near future once I've tracked down my donor guns.

This is going to solve so many compromises I made in the last cab

[Turnarcades]

This thread seems to be getting too technical too quickly - if there are teething troubles, I'm sure they'll be addressed. As for mapping issues and reference to specific games, as long as the thing aims and tracks properly, and the programming ability of the device is fully flexible to allow for the difference between PC and MAME games, I'm happy to set my gun up in software for each game manually. I'm sure if the gun can be programmed to do both ways, you could always write a quick batch file to switch the reload method when launching a PC game instead of a MAME game.

Like I say, as long as the accuracy is good and calibration isn't a pain in the ass, that's good enough for me. I'm only really bothered about a handful of games anyway so as long as it shoots what I'm aiming at, I'm good.

[wbassett]

This thread seems to be getting too technical too quickly - if there are teething troubles, I'm sure they'll be addressed. As for mapping issues and reference to specific games, as long as the thing aims and tracks properly, and the programming ability of the device is fully flexible to allow for the difference between PC and MAME games, I'm happy to set my gun up in software for each game manually. I'm sure if the gun can be programmed to do both ways, you could always write a quick batch file to switch the reload method when launching a PC game instead of a MAME game.

Like I say, as long as the accuracy is good and calibration isn't a pain in the ass, that's good enough for me. I'm only really bothered about a handful of games anyway so as long as it shoots what I'm aiming at, I'm good.

It was also a matter of time before the Topgun fanboys chimed in!

The price is the selling feature!  At this price I definitely will give it a try.  Afterall... I gave the Topgun a try and it was twice the price and sounds like half the performance and my Topgun showed up broken.  If this at least works when it arrives it is already ahead of the game!

[Xiaou2]

 Well, Im no "Fanboy".  Im just a customer who wants something functionally
usable... and with the most options available.   

 Everyone was all up for joy over the actlabs guns... However, they were so
horrifically imprecise, as to be unusable.   A huge waste of money.  Stupid me,
I went and ordered the 2nd revision thinking they would have improved
accuracy. Wrong.  Never again will I buy anything ActLabs... and never again
will I buy anything without a solid video review and or actually testing it myself.
Im done with "Burning Money" on dysfunctional crap.

 Already it appears Andy has not even tested these things in mame... as he
didnt even know about the reload issues.

 I appreciate new options...  However, Im not going to start doing cartwheels
and patting someone on the back for something that hasnt even been tested
fully, reviewed, and or did a video demonstration.
 
 The Topguns may not be the perfect gun, but at least they are accurate...
have made adjustments to deal with mame better, have video demos,
and have a known track record.   They also have force feedback which
could be hacked with relays to drive full power coils..  a comfortable gun shell,
and a laser for precise calibration.

[Turnarcades]

TopGuns have good accuracy? Rubbish. Even after repeat calibration, bar adjustment, and minor tweaks, I always got average accuracy at most, with frequent 'misfires' going way off where I aimed, screen edge detection unforgivably poor and tracking was awful as you could see if you had crosshairs on screen.

I got some (brand new) on the cheap and still think they were a waste of money. The sensor bars are ungainly, the recoil is temperemental and misses every few shots, the laser is cool but inaccurate, the cabling arrangement is comical for two players and the potential for infra-red interference was just ridiculous. The only redeeming points were the gun design, the number of convenient buttons (like the second 'trigger' on the handle, buttons where the safey catch would be on a real gun, and the 'mini-stick' on the rear) and the fact it was better than any other offering at the time, but that isn't saying much.

As for over-praising Andy, I think the real praise will only come once the units have been tested. Most of us (including me) have said "great, if it does what it claims", and will take this with a pinch of salt. What we are praising right now is the new approach, the flexibility of choosing your own gun and the fact this product was borne out of direct community opinion and feedback via this forum.

[severdhed]

i think alot of the praise is due to Ultimarc's reputation.  They make awesome products that are tailored to the home arcade crowd...which is a market that usually has to adapt and modifiy products that are designed for other purposes.  Sure, we havent actually had a real review of this product yet, but here are the reasons i think it is being praised so much:

1. THis product has been built from the ground up to be a cost effective light gun solution for the home arcade/mame use, trying to resolve alot of the problems that other current options have.  Instead of making a product and saying "this is it", Andy asked for input about what our community wanted from a light gun, and designed this product to those specs. 

2. Andy is a regular active member on these forums, and has already adjusted the functionality of these units, based on input from the forums.  He actually cares about our community and wants to make products that work the way we want them to, and to provide more functionality that other companies are offering.

3. Ultimarc makes awesome products...look at the ipac, the utrak, the u360...all of these products work beautifully, and are aimed towards the home arcade market.  They deliver functionality that other products just do not have. 

4. Customer service - Ultimarc has a proven track record of standing behind their products, and going above and beyond the call of duty to make sure their customers are happy.   Search the forums, you would be hard pressed to find anyone who has anything bad to say about Ultimarc, or their products.  They constantly raise the bar when it comes products and support.  Why would this unit be any different?

Like any new product, i'm sure there will be a few little issues here and there, but i have complete faith in Andy and Ultimarc, that if there is a problem, it will be addressed and resolved.

If I had the cash, i would have already ordered a set of these, but i just dont have it right now.  I'm really looking forward to the reveiws of these units, and also to the full gun kit that they are workign on.  I'm really not sure what kind of gun shell i would use on my cabinet, so please, anyone who uses these, post a thorough review with pics of your guns.

[Ginsu Victim]

That's the reason I ordered this sight unseen -- Andy's product support. If this doesn't do what it should, he will do what is needed to correct it. I have 100% faith in Ultimarc's commitment to their products and their customers.

[RetroACTIVE]

I wouldn't even spend much time trying to figure out how well this solution performs or speculate based on previous experiences with different products.  This thing has just hit the streets for pete sake!  Give it some time, there will be plenty of real world use cases with this thing in action soon enough!

[BobA]

I ordered mine because of my faith in Andy and the quality of his products.  I don't know how some people can start criticize it sight unseen but there are always those with a negative attitude.   If it is even half as good as it sounds it will be a welcome addition to my cab.

[mvsfan]

It doesn't seem possible to put this in an air soft or other non electronic toy gun.
[/quote]

I wonder if anybodys thought of trying to keep the airsoft gun functional. Add your microswitch, etc and leave it functional.

it would definately add some sort of realism to it, lol. Just make sure that your glass on top of the monitor is unbreakable.

sorry i just had to get a laugh out of that.

[Xiaou2]

 The Topgun accuracy is about 500x more accurate than the ActLabs guns.  Every shot I placed
went where I wanted it to go.   

 If yours had problems, it may have been due to nearby light sources which caused interference.

 I merely fail to see how a system which has only 1 bank of leds, which are all centeralized in
one location can be more accurate than a system which places the leds at all 4 corners of the
screen.   

 The arcades usually did things for good reason... and that is exactly how they did construct
their sensors.
 
 The Wii aproach to sensor bar is a poor replication.  Its meant for easy setup and nicer
looks... however, Wii accuracy is Not very good.  Especially when it comes to lightgun games.

 Sorry... but I dont have much faith in someone who has not even tested these units with actual
mame gun games.   That is irresponsible. 

 And, Im being a realist... not being Negative.
 

[patrickl]

It's tested to control a mouse cursor. Try the same with Topguns and it's clear how much they suck

[Beretta]

this is pretty cool, i can see some of the more creative people on here offering shells..

one thing thats kinda a turn off though here is that it must be held at the same height..

this would make it a pain to use with friends..

also i can't speak for everyone but i sometimes change up during game play.. so it would lose accuracy just by adjusting your stance and such..

perhaps that weakness is overstated on the product page but anyway looks interesting in any event.

slightly off subject is anyone still selling positional guns? namely the T2 recoil guns?
i know they're not light guns, ebay keeps turning up empty.

[bungy]

When I first read about the AimTrak, I immediately thought "NES Zapper".  So I got a few off craigslist to look inside and start planning.  Turns out, the trigger mech uses a standard microswitch with an arm.  The barrel is plenty big enough for the AimTrack module.  Also, the barrel and handle of the zapper are weighted which gives it a nice feel.  Someone already mentioned about the "KA-CHING" sound, but it looks easy enough to modify for quietness.  Here's a pic for anyone that's interested.
I'll be using the grey one for Player 1 and the orange one for Player 2.

[Ginsu Victim]

I was back and forth between buying the NES Zapper and the Justifier (both were only $10 ea). I have yet to look inside the Justifier...

[severdhed]

i am really torn on which gun shell to use.  i dont have any lying around that i want to destroy, so i will have to buy some.  the first thing i though of was also the NES zapper, however the trigger would have to be modified to reduce the throw and that loud noise.  some gun games require alot of quick shots, which could be difficult with the zapper.

the justifiers would be a great choice, i have a pair of them for my SNES, but i dont want to gut those, and i wish the pink one was red.  i think if i go this route, i'll get two blue ones, since i'm going with a blue/yellow theme on the cabinet.

the original guncon would also be a great choice..although the grey color is a little boring.  they at least have nicely placed buttons that could be used for reloading.   the justifier does have an extra button as well, it has been a while since i have held one though, i dont remember if the placement would be good or not.

the nes zapper is pretty slick looking, and would definitely give you an old school feel, but the lack of an extra button could be limiting..and i cant help but think that trying to add another button somewhere would just end up looking like crap.

i really am looking forward to you guys posting pics of your's in action when you get them, maybe that would help me decide.

i think for now i'll just keep an eye open when i go to the flea markets and things to see if  i find any guns cheap, which could influence my decision.

[Ginsu Victim]

The Justifier has a start button that, for me, isn't easy to push one handed. I'm going to add a button and hope it doesn't look too crappy (which I don't care about as long as it serves its purpose).

[bungy]

the first thing i though of was also the NES zapper, however the trigger would have to be modified to reduce the throw and that loud noise. 

Actually, when I had it open, I pulled the trigger a few times to see how it worked, and the switch engages very early in the pull.  The rest of the pull is what gives the loud noise.  You could probably put something in there to stop the trigger right after the switch engages.

I was thinking of how to add a second button as well, but there are few options.  You might be able to squeeze in a tiny radio shack pushbutton on the back.  I'll probably just try to make do with a single button.

[Organic Jerk]

Andy, about the possible gun design for your upcoming AimTrak-based gun.... will you be having extra buttons besides the trigger?  Such as the grip button or D-pad like the EMS Topgun?

I think if not the D-pad, I think a grip button and a button on the side of the gun would be good additions.

[swamprat96]

Thanks Beretta. I'd missed the height thing. That is a problem. Question is - is this a trade off for shooting distance (ie Topguns)?

Its easier to get people to stand a certain distance back- they get used to it. But height is a different story. The last cab I made went to a father and son- and they play Big Buck Hunter. So they share the player 1 gun. The son is a lot shorter than his dad. So in this scenario Aimtrack may not be suitable

The 2nd question is- just how much accuracy do you lose with varying height?

[Xiaou2]

It's tested to control a mouse cursor. Try the same with Topguns and it's clear how much they suck

 Actually, that is not a correct comparison at all.  It shows your lack of technological
understandings.

 Controlling the mouse in realtime is no indication of good accuracy.

 The Topguns were not really designed to do that.  THough, they do allow it.
They have a low 'refresh' time for realtime tracking.  However, when the trigger is
pulled... the system immediately refreshes that instant.   And anyone with a properly
configured topgun can attest that whatever Icon they aimed at... they were able to hit
accurately.

 The Wii allows realtime tracking.  However... if you move your position a little...
or go beyond its range... it flips out.   It loses its accuracy.   Ive also seen it jump
the cursor erratically at times.  (I dont own one.. I tried a friends machine)

[kronic24601]

Andy, REALLY Important question. I didn't see this anywhere in your posts.

What are the physical dimensions (width, length, and height) of the board you are using? I have two ol Act-Labs GS guns (image below) and the barrel is rounded so the dimensions are super important. It probably can handle just a hair of 3/4", but it depends on how tall it is.

Judging by the photo, and the standard size of a USB plug, it looks to be 3/4-1" wide? Can you confirm the exact dimensions please?

[patrickl]

It's tested to control a mouse cursor. Try the same with Topguns and it's clear how much they suck

 Actually, that is not a correct comparison at all.  It shows your lack of technological
understandings.

 Controlling the mouse in realtime is no indication of good accuracy.

Yeah and that shows your lack of reading and comprehension skills. Did I say accuracy? Nope, I didn't. I replied to your suggestion that it must be bad because it wasn't tested in Mame. Still, he could have tested accuracy with a mouse cursor also.

Besides, it's utter nonsense that the Topguns track fast if you press the trigger and just lag when you don't. Like always, you are just making stuff up again.

[Franco B]

Andy, REALLY Important question. I didn't see this anywhere in your posts.

What are the physical dimensions (width, length, and height) of the board you are using? I have two ol Act-Labs GS guns (image below) and the barrel is rounded so the dimensions are super important. It probably can handle just a hair of 3/4", but it depends on how tall it is.

Judging by the photo, and the standard size of a USB plug, it looks to be 3/4-1" wide? Can you confirm the exact dimensions please?

Surprisingly the dimensions are on the product page which Andy linked to



I think the 10mm height is to the center of the tracking camera so I would imagine the total height is about 18mm so I think you should be ok.

This looks like another great project from Ultimarc. I wish people wouldn't hate on it and wait until it has been tested. Knowing Andy the product will be great and he wouldn't release anything that wasn't 110%. I look forward to seeing some reviews. 

[Minwah]

When I first read about the AimTrak, I immediately thought "NES Zapper".  So I got a few off craigslist to look inside and start planning.  Turns out, the trigger mech uses a standard microswitch with an arm.  The barrel is plenty big enough for the AimTrack module.

Are you sure the barrel is big enough? I don't have one but the end of the barrel doesn't look very big to me...

[Lilwolf]

I was going to ask the same question... why only do it on one side?  I was wondering if Andy had tried it when working on it?

I thought the Wii did it just because it was the only way to have something mountable... But we (as diy'rs) could put the them where ever we want, and from there you only need one extra light to specify a side.

It seems like if you had the 4 corners, and again, one extra to show the top side...  You would be able to rotate the gun, shoot from different sides / angles without configuration ect.    Heck, if each corner had 3 leds in a L shape around the edge.  And they where all lets say a set distance from each other.  Couldn't the gun then get a lot closer?  (now as long as you can see any of the edges, your fine?)

Just curious what the rational was for making a 'bar'.

Also, can you just use a wii bar?  (that would be cool, so I could bring it out to my projector system with the wii and just use it on the big screen.

But for everyone who thinks the wii is accurate... realize they don't know how big your tv is.  It can't be that accurate.

The Topgun accuracy is about 500x more accurate than the ActLabs guns.  Every shot I placed
went where I wanted it to go.   

 If yours had problems, it may have been due to nearby light sources which caused interference.

 I merely fail to see how a system which has only 1 bank of leds, which are all centeralized in
one location can be more accurate than a system which places the leds at all 4 corners of the
screen.   

 The arcades usually did things for good reason... and that is exactly how they did construct
their sensors.
 
 The Wii aproach to sensor bar is a poor replication.  Its meant for easy setup and nicer
looks... however, Wii accuracy is Not very good.  Especially when it comes to lightgun games.

 Sorry... but I dont have much faith in someone who has not even tested these units with actual
mame gun games.   That is irresponsible. 

 And, Im being a realist... not being Negative.
 

[Lilwolf]

oh, and is the firmware upgradeable?

[Sir Headless VII]

Is there going to be some sort of cover for the sensor bar available (I am thinking to make it look like a wii sensor bar)? If I were going to put this on a cabinet it would be the one I have already put together and I would hate to have to try and completely redesign the front glass and bezel in an attempt to hide the bright green pcb and leds sticking off the top of the TV. If there were some sort of cover for it all I would have to do is cut a notch out of my bezel and stick it on instead of trying to get smoked glass or something like that.