Crap MAME II: Crap Harder

[Howard_Casto]

Remember this?

http://www.wickedretarded.com/~crapmame/


I sure do... and I want to bring it back. 

I saw Dave's post here:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=118078.0

And it got me to thinking that we need to do this sort of thing more often... just for the heck of it.  As I posted... I want to take it to the next level though and start a full-fledged council.  Send us random pics to judge, send your own cab.... send us plans to an upcoming cab so we can stop you before it's too late!

But first things, first... we are going to need a council.  Senior members assemble!  PM me or post below. 

[DaveMMR]

Heh, I reread my post on the thread you linked to and realized I unintentionally used the same voice as the author of CrapMAME (the keyword I used there was "dude").

I'm wondering how much trouble we'd get into for doing something like that.  But then I also realize we post threads to ridicule (a) MAME (or the xx-in-1) cabinets that are being sold on Craigslist and eBay (b) MAME cabinets found outside these forums (c) horrible, horrible classic cubs butchered to attached some oversized monstrosity.  So long as we're not sniping the Project Announcements section, it might be pretty fun.

Assuming I qualify, I would like to be part of the council, even if only because I have too many opinions and I have to release them somewhere. 

(Note: On the flipside, I also still wish they were doing Mameys - haven't seen anything new there either. I've seen quite a few projects that would qualify.)

[SavannahLion]

Saw Dave's post? Go figure....

Since nobody really reads any of the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- I write, it's safe to say what I think.

Having a bunch of opinionated ---uvulas--- on a forum is bad, but part of forum life. Having a full fledged "council" where such ---uvula--- behavior becomes "official" is downright poisonous to a forum. CrapMAME is a beautiful piece of work because it's insultingly funny.

If you go forward, I suggest keeping it away from here. No sense in poisoning the forums. Take it from someone with first hand experience where a similar "council" appeared.

Pick the bad cabs carefully. There's a reason why the famous Nintendo cab isn't outlined at CrapMAME. On the flip side the whole idea is going to suck donkey balls if every moron submits his half-assed cardboard floor cab mockup or his crap Sketchup skills just to get his 15 minutes of fame.

CrapMAME author critiques his own CP. Think about what this means for said members of... Ahem... "Crap Council".

"constructive criticism" doesn't have to be nice or friendly but it does need to be there.

[Howard_Casto]

Dave:  Your in.  More than enough posts and you've been around long enough.  It's practically your idea anyway.  I'm just worried about my own qualifications.  Mind you I've been around the forums since the beginning (literally) but whenever I post a criticism people pick it apart, for no other reason then it was my post.  My infamy proceedes me.    That might work to our advantage though... nobody is going to take it too seriously if I do it... afterall, I complain about EVERYTHING!

Savannah:

I get what you are saying and I agree with you completely, BUT... a forum-like setup would be needed for this to work properly... that's the only reason I suggested that we do it here.   Once a submission is approved, however, it would make sense to post the council's results at an external site, so f-bombs can be dropped and what not.   

There won't be anyting "official" about it other than that fact that everybody on the council will officially be acting like big jerks.  Think Don Rickels... everybody wants him to call em a hockey puck. 

I like the Nintendo cab actually... it's the exception to the rule about console-based cabs.  Mind you I still think the concept of playing console games on a arcade machine is just dumb, but that one does it with so much style that it wins me over. 


I wouldn't be opposed to making it a requirement for council members to have their cabs put up on the block...  either to other council members, or the general public.  You have to be fair afterall and if a member doesn't have a thick skin then they aren't cut out to do it.


I've never posted anything on these forums that hasn't been constructive, so I don't think that'll be a problem.  Unfortunately my style of writing does tend to "twist the knife" a little, thus why I'm always making people mad.  Again, that might be perfect for this. 

[Le Chuck]

I've only been active for a few months but I have been lurking since I build my first cab in '04.  Never bothered to post because I didn't have anything (I felt) worth contributing.  I can see now that if I have started contributing earlier my earlier builds would have been even better despite my going to great pains to follow the advice of the day.  A lot of people come out of the shadows on this site because of the constructive criticism and positive feedback that this community provides.  All the other opinion threads are background noise, after all most of us like to argue and it's nice to argue with somebody you share a common denominator with, and that is a lot of the charm of this forum in my opinion. 

A great example is you Howard, I take the bait on a lot of your comments because I read them as pedantic or blatantly close minded but in those instances we're talking about comic books or classic cars or something that isn't home-brewed arcade machines and arcade controls.  You have been around forever and you do have one of those high post counts that people often (and often incorrectly) associate with authority but you're also a huge influence because of your contributions in code and sound advice.  I think you're wanting to do this to steer all these "young builders" in the right direction and help them avoid some expensive and unattractive errors but you do that already far better through your legitimate constructive advice.  Go be curmudgeonly on all the other threads but don't taint the respect we have for you by bringing your derisiveness into the one area of this forum that actually matters.  When Howard rants about why peanut butter is not a cultural icon people say, "Oh that's Howard being Howard, this gives me an opportunity to argue and get my worthless point across too" but when Howard says "This cab is going down the wrong path and here is why..." people take a listen. 

So do as you will, have a council, give out not-crap icons, crap-icons, and post overly harsh critiques.  My opinion doesn't matter one iota but if you go down that road I think you may lose some of the respect and credibility that allows Howard to go be Howard everywhere else.  You would from me at least. 

I think crap-mame is funny, I think on some level it is constructive, but I think it has no place here outside the occasional, "Oh my god, look at this train-wreck of a cab I found on X."  Thanks for taking the time to consider the uninformed opinion of a newbie         

[DaOld Man]

Sorry, but I dont think this is a good idea. Someone in this hobby for the first time may get discouraged if their "never before done idea" is made fun of in such a degree that it becomes a picture on a website that thousands will see.
We can steer the newbies respectfully, and they, and us, will get much more out of it.

[Well Fed Games]

  Unfortunately my style of writing does tend to "twist the knife" a little, thus why I'm always making people mad.  

There's a difference between people having thin skin and you being an ---uvula---.

This is a horrible idea, and totally against the spirit of the forums and Saint's book. Not everyone is skilled in design, woodworking, electronics, etc., but they still may create something that satisfies their desire for an arcade cabinet. I am not sure how your opinion factors in at all, actually, other than attracting attention to yourself. I would hope you are being sarcastic about this thread idea but I don't think you are capable of it.

[Malenko]

There's a difference between people having thin skin and you being an ---uvula---.

This is a horrible idea, and totally against the spirit of the forums and Saint's book.

^^ This

 

[DaveMMR]

In my mind, I have to say I see tons of examples, posted in threads like this that are mocked openly. But the difference is this - they are being sold on craigslist and ebay. Someone slapped something together and is now trying to profit (or make back money) from it. There appears to be a thriving (??) underground industry where the road to quick money is slapping together paint and wood, throwing MAME or a "xx-in-one" board in there and extolling its value as "playing thousand of games" to justify its ridiculous price tag.  For something like that, I call open season*.  

(*Perhaps likewise for classics being turned into chairs or sawing a DOT environmental into pieces so a 4-player panel can be grafted on.)

But I agree with other people. I would hope that this wouldn't be something where we'd skim the project announcements and pick on people whose only crime is being inexperienced with their build. That would be a very bad idea and completely not in the spirit of the community.

What I wouldn't mind seeing is the formation of a "review committee" (i.e. not necessarily CrapMAME watchdogs) where people could submit their projects voluntarily and have it critiqued and possibly highlight some projects that are of a great quality (I have quite a few nominations I bookmarked; LeChuck yours is actually one of them) that said committee could comment on (much like the Mameys used to do). And yes, also perhaps point out those aforementioned dubious cabinets - found elsewhere like CL, not in Proj Ann - as well.

(By the way, the only way to be a real CrapMAME 2.0 is if the original author just does a new batch. His worked because of his sarcastic style and the fact that he had done it realizing it was easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.)

[drventure]

I'm a little on the fence about something like this.

I mean, these forums stay, by and large, quite positive, and for people just getting into the hobby, that's a big plus. I never really got into KLOV because there's a lot of bagging going on there. Same reason I don't really bother with very many other forums.

Sure, I been critical of a few cabs here, just as most of us have been, but, like the vast majority of other posts here, I try to not be blatantly derisive, or harsh. But I tend to agree with DaveMMR about that one too. If the builder was bold enough to post a cab for sale, that's a different situation, and one that opens things up a little more.

I guess in the end, I'd just rather not see the crapmame sort of thing here. But it's not my board, it's Saint's, so it's really his call.

[Howard_Casto]

  Unfortunately my style of writing does tend to "twist the knife" a little, thus why I'm always making people mad.  

There's a difference between people having thin skin and you being an ---uvula---.

Well see there's your problem right there.  I've never ever ever ever ever commented on these forums for the sake of insulting someone, it's always been to make a point.  If you feel that I've been a dick, then you have thin skin, as you put it. 

[Le Chuck]

Dave, If you set it up like an academy awards for cabs and had a variety of categories concentrating on everything from "Best documented thread" to "Best Lighting" "Best Wiring" or "Best Art" to the standards "Best Standard Arcade", "Best Bartop", "Best Control Panel" etc I don't think it would hurt to have a single raspberry category like "Biggest CL's Stinker" or "Worst Auction" but I don't think that focusing on negative cabs would carry something like that.  The bad cab category would be a diverting sideshow to the real work of documenting great builds into groups, determining the best current practices and executions within the hobby, and getting them out there for people to see without having to chase the rabbit through a series of random best of links spread around the forums.  I think if done well that could be a real benefit to the hobby, not because we are getting little gold Galaga aliens to put in our signatures, but because it could really help somebody to see three or four similar projects compared against each other and have the merits of the execution intelligently commented on. 

I think there is a nugget of a really good idea in here but I think we need to rinse off the "CrapMAME" nonsense to find some value.     

[jimmy2x2x]

Dave, If you set it up like an academy awards for cabs and had a variety of categories concentrating on everything from "Best documented thread" to "Best Lighting" "Best Wiring" or "Best Art" to the standards "Best Standard Arcade", "Best Bartop", "Best Control Panel" etc I don't think it would hurt to have a single raspberry category like "Biggest CL's Stinker" or "Worst Auction" but I don't think that focusing on negative cabs would carry something like that.  The bad cab category would be a diverting sideshow to the real work of documenting great builds into groups, determining the best current practices and executions within the hobby, and getting them out there for people to see without having to chase the rabbit through a series of random best of links spread around the forums.  I think if done well that could be a real benefit to the hobby, not because we are getting little gold Galaga aliens to put in our signatures, but because it could really help somebody to see three or four similar projects compared against each other and have the merits of the execution intelligently commented on. 

I think there is a nugget of a really good idea in here but I think we need to rinse off the "CrapMAME" nonsense to find some value.     

Like this idea a lot, an annual vote and a glossy hall of fame would be a great way to celebrate the hobby.

[amendonz]

Lame idea keep it to yourselves. Also people put consoles in cabs to generally play arcade games on just like putting a pc in. Do you think we do it for COD or something lol

[Louis Tully]

.

[BobA]

IMHO just crapping on cabs for the fun of it is a bad idea.  Sure there are piles of dung out on CL or elsewhere but that is where they belong.  Keep it out of this Forum and you can do what you want but it seems very counter productive to anything we have here that is of value.  

[DaveMMR]

I do like the idea of setting up a simple "Mame Review" blog where people can voluntarily submit their completed projects (be it CP, upright, bartop, etc.) to be reviewed by a panel of "judges" with a diverse range of personalities and opinions and grade it on a scale of 1-5 - giving a "Gold Award" to an average of 4 and a "Platinum Award" to straight 5's. (And yes, I am partially ripping off EGM's classic review model.) It can be somewhat humorous but constructive (unlike CrapMAME that goes more for the sarcastic, biting humor, saving the valid points for the end). And the difference here is that it would work ONLY with voluntary submissions: people who think they have something special hoping for that "coveted" (tongue-firmly-in-my-fat-cheek) Gold or Platinum award.  Or maybe they want some infamy and have some thick skin?  Whatever the reason.  

And yeah, the "raspberries" that focus on what I call the "acceptable targets" would work alongside it, so long as it's not overshadowing. Hastily built cabinets being sold on CL? Yes. The Virtua Fighter cabinet? Absolutely.  

And then, as Le Chuck said and Jimmy Two Times agreed with, an annual "Best of the Best" awards for the high scorers in different categories. Perhaps even a physical award, if feasible.  Acceptance speeches optional, but mandatory.  

Something like this can be done on a simple Wordpress site for the time being, separate from the boards (I see BYOAC as a place for help, not so much for judgment.)

Anyway, was just rattling off some ideas there.

[Le Chuck]

IMHO just crapping on cabs for the fun of it is a bad idea.  Sure there are piles of dung out on CL or elsewhere but that is where they belong.  Keep it out of this Forum and you can do what you want but it seems very counter productive to anything we have here that is of value. 

This is a great idea, only if OND gets his own category. That way some of the other amazing projects have a chance at the top. Not knocking any builds here but the skill/talent that dude has (I'm sure we all agree) is just on a different level. 
[/quote]

OND's latest masterpiece is unfinished so wouldn't even make the first round of nominations if enough people decide they would like to see something like get off the ground.  Maybe he'll get it done in time for a lifetime achievement award  

I'm going to move this to it's own thread.  I don't want to threadjack Crap-MAME 2.0 any further but if you're interested in helping flesh out a viable tool to document and recognize some great contributors to the hobby I'll be in Everything Else "Awards Project"

[DaveMMR]

Yeah, by my own arbitrary rules, OND would not yet be qualified.  When it is finished, all other builders should just take the year off. 

[Howard_Casto]

IMHO just crapping on cabs for the fun of it is a bad idea.  Sure there are piles of dung out on CL or elsewhere but that is where they belong.  Keep it out of this Forum and you can do what you want but it seems very counter productive to anything we have here that is of value.  

I get the feeling that people have never actually read crapmame all the way through. 

At the very end there is a page that explains WHY the author heckled certain elements of a cab so hard.  Btw crapmame, is a product of the old irc chatroom... I was around and if I remember correctly (god that was ages ago) helped a little with the guidelines on what is bad in terms of design.  I take zero responsibility in regards to the humor or the submissions chosen though... that was all ________.


I definately think that a more serious review system is desperately needed around here as well...we should do that.
 
The point of crapmame though is to educate and make some reviews that everybody can get a good laugh out of.  It's very hard to do that when you are gushing about how awesome something is.  Also there has always been an underlying problem in this forum where people will say something is great even when it isn't.  I'm not saying that you should be a jerk and hurt somebodies feelings, but when you tell your tone-deaf friend that they are a wonderful singer they'll end up on the american idol tryouts making a fool out of themselves.

[SavannahLion]

Yeah, by my own arbitrary rules, OND would not yet be qualified.  When it is finished, all other builders should just take the year off.  

The OND Award?

I don't even look at OND's projects anymore. He steals all my best ideas, does them 4x better, then I find myself crying into my pillow at night, ashamed to show my own work. I'm fairly convinced that OND isn't a single person but the name of a shop somewhere consisting of a handful of skilled craftsmen. I'm waiting for the OND Hour on the Home Network, then I'll know the truth.

And as usual, Howard isn't really paying attention and assumes the rest of us aren't. Yesh.

[Well Fed Games]

I definately think that a more serious review system is desperately needed around here as well...we should do that.
 

Why? for what purpose?

but when you tell your tone-deaf friend that they are a wonderful singer they'll end up on the american idol tryouts making a fool out of themselves.

How does this relate to what we do here? Is it some sort of competition?

Also there has always been an underlying problem in this forum where people will say something is great even when it isn't. 

Is this really a PROBLEM? If so, why aren't you trying to fix the whole internet- because I am pretty sure on every subject at least half the population doesn't agree with you about what is "great" and "isn;t", and if things even need to be measured that way.

-pause here, let that sink in-...

When we like projects on the forum, we heap praise on them. When we don't, we can ask questions about why certain choices are made. It works great now and is the way forums based around creative hobbies should work.

Crapmame is funny, yes, no doubt about it. But it has been done, and moreso, has no attachment to this forum other than the fact that we are aware of it and have chuckled from time to time. The internet is big- do what you want. But IMHO we don't need judges or bullies here.

[Xiaou2]

but you're also a huge influence because of your contributions in code and sound advice

 When BYOAC was much younger, Howard went on a super-rant about how there was no visible difference between Composite and Svideo.  Going so far as to drive peoples decisions in the wrong direction.

 Quite simply, his advice isnt always Sound.   And to make things fair, even my advice hasnt always been sound.

 And while Im critical of many things... theres one thing I try not to do... and thats crap on someone elses hand made creations.  Theres a huge difference between some mega corporation, and an individual.  As is there a difference between giving someone advice, and trying to embarrass them and cut them down publicly for your amusement.  And or your "Idea" of whats right and wrong (opinions).  Forcing your Opinions down other peoples throats, and degrading them in the process... shows your Nazi style of black and white thought.

 Is it ok if we nuke the entire middle east because a small group gives us a problem?  Do the ends justify the means?   Trashing someone publicly does not help them.  Nor is trashing them justified by trashing your own creation publicly.

 The moral compass you have is screwed up.   And maybe thats because someone did the same kinds of things to you... and thats your means of revenge?  But regardless, its wrong. Plain and simple... its the wrong attitude.

 If you want to help waken people to advice on control panels... then do it in a way that does not offend.  Theres no need to use others at your expense.  You can simply tell the advantages and disadvantages with vector based drawings, rather than photos that are not your own.  People would praise it, rather than be upset and angered over it.

 Slapping someone in the face isnt the same thing as saying, would you like some help or advice?
Its certainly not love.. and its certainly not the kind of help most people would accept or enjoy.  But ahh, Howard, again, Im pretty sure thats how you are used to being treated.. because how else could someone be so cold?

 Then again, maybe you just feel you need some more attention.  God knows you probably dont have very many friends... and its most likely, because of a crap-attitude.  Hmm, do we need to make a crap-attitude site too?  Maybe some extensive detective work, incriminating photos...etc..?  Or should we keep your life to yourself and spare you of the embarrassments?
 

[Howard_Casto]

I definately think that a more serious review system is desperately needed around here as well...we should do that.
 

Why? for what purpose?

but when you tell your tone-deaf friend that they are a wonderful singer they'll end up on the american idol tryouts making a fool out of themselves.

How does this relate to what we do here? Is it some sort of competition?

Also there has always been an underlying problem in this forum where people will say something is great even when it isn't. 

Is this really a PROBLEM? If so, why aren't you trying to fix the whole internet- because I am pretty sure on every subject at least half the population doesn't agree with you about what is "great" and "isn;t", and if things even need to be measured that way.

-pause here, let that sink in-...

When we like projects on the forum, we heap praise on them. When we don't, we can ask questions about why certain choices are made. It works great now and is the way forums based around creative hobbies should work.

Crapmame is funny, yes, no doubt about it. But it has been done, and moreso, has no attachment to this forum other than the fact that we are aware of it and have chuckled from time to time. The internet is big- do what you want. But IMHO we don't need judges or bullies here.

What purpose?  Umm to keep people from spending a thousand bucks building a machine only to find out that due to their inexperience it's virtually unplayable.

No it isn't a competition, but I guess I didn't spell my point out enough so that you can get it.    If someone makes a "bad" cabinet and it is praised, two things happen:  

1.  The author who is excited, might go out and build more cabinets with the same problems.  Lots of times people are so excited about the build that they forget to sit down and actually play some games on their creations.

2.  Other people, with even less experience... see how this cab was praised and copy it only to find out later that it had errors in it's design which hinder playability.  

There is a plague in this country (heck this world) where people think that all opinions, even unqualified ones are valid.  They just aren't... this is the harsh reality of life.  2+2 is 4.... If you have an opinion that 2+2=5 then you are just wrong.  Crap MAME was never about a cabinet being ugly (although that obviously is pointed out), it was about a cabinet being nearly unplayable due to poor design.  I've been here since the beginning and I've seen a gradual improvement in the quality of cabs over the years, but yes, after 15 years I still see people making the same mistakes that make a cab virtually unplayable, so yes, it really is that much of a problem.

An although think that every submission ever made should be judged, that would cause too many problems, I'll point out that there are only three reasons for a project to be posted in a public forum:

1.  As an educational reference... so others can learn from it. - These things need judged because there might be bad advice in there.

2.  For others to give their opinions on it.  - In other words, so people can judge it.

3.  Fishing for compliments and nothing else.  -  I worry about these types of people.


Xiaou2:  You have much bigger problems than me.  Seeing this is easy.  I'm talking about cabs, and you are talking about people (me).  Any critiques I give have a level of distance behind them because I seldom, if ever talk about the person, but you ALWAYS have to talk about the person directly.  I would suggest that before you go around arbitually judging some else's moral compass you look inward and figure out what is so wrong with you that you take the opportunity in a public forum to attack my personal character, when everyone else is discussing the implications of a new website.

I think this has less to do with me, and more to do with the fact that I called you a "king troll" in a previous thread.  I apoligize about that, but to be fair you called me one first and it was completely uncalled for. 

[Xiaou2]

but when you tell your tone-deaf friend that they are a wonderful singer they'll end up on the american idol tryouts making a fool out of themselves.

 A person making a cabinet isnt trying to become famous. They are not trying to make any money.  They are not even applying to a job or a field of work in which building to opinion and or arcade spec.. is something required..  They are not trying to Whoo you, or somehow put You down with their creation.  They are merely happy with what they created, and decide to share it with others.

 Your grasping at straws feces.

 Its apples to oranges pal, and you know it.

 Personally, I dont watch the 'Bad Singer' portion of AI.  Not only because my ears cant take it.. but because its not something I approve of.   Yes, there are tone def people up there... but have you considered, in all of your infinite wisdom... that the people who egg them on are ALSO TONE DEF?!!!  Most especially, parents, where its genetic.   But also, yes, there Are in fact times when parents and friends dont tell a person the truth about their lackings.  But heres the difference... if someone I know sings poorly, I wouldnt care, because that their thing.  If they said they were planning on going to Idol... Id quip up... but in a way thats respectful and caring.  I wouldnt cut them down, post their video to youtube, make a website to trash them...etc.   If they didnt accept my honest, yet caring and kind opinions... then they are well and free to put themselves in a highly critical and judgmental position.  A position that critical for a serious reason.  Not for some stupid reason that it somehow offends someone that you make a control panel that you will never touch.  These people are not trying to be the best, nor win any comps.  If they dont like it, then let them rebuild it at their leisure.  Its part of the experience of life.  We all are not born perfect, especially according to Howards IDEA of perfect Spec.

[Le Chuck]

Xiaou2, you started off quoting me earlier but I think you switched to talking to Howard somewhere in the third paragraph when you made the Nazi comment?  

Just wanting to be clear that wasn't all directed at moi.  The following posts reaffirm that but I totally had to read that post twice.

I fully acknowledge my awareness that Howard isn't always right, but there are some peices of software I have working the way I want only because of Howard and his wrappers.  Credit where credit is due and that is to what I was alluding.  

[GibsonRiddler]

If judging people's work is a problem, why not start a forum of common mistakes and design flaws, with ways to fix them, or reasons why things work one way as opposed to another? I'm sure everyone has seen many of these problems over the years.

[DaveMMR]

If judging people's work is a problem, why not start a forum of common mistakes and design flaws, with ways to fix them, or reasons why things work one way as opposed to another? I'm sure everyone has seen many of these problems over the years.

Heh, there was a thread dedicated to common mistakes: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=64251.0

[Le Chuck]

If judging people's work is a problem, why not start a forum of common mistakes and design flaws, with ways to fix them, or reasons why things work one way as opposed to another? I'm sure everyone has seen many of these problems over the years.

Heh, there was a thread dedicated to common mistakes: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=64251.0

Off topic but PaigeOliver introduced me to the Updawg joke.  I still use that one. 

[nitz]

Yeah...seriously, this is a bad idea. Please don't do it. Or if you must, please keep it off this forum.

As others have touched on, I have no problem making fun of some doofus making a horrible mame cab and then trying to sell it on Craigslist for $5000 or whatever. But really, I think picking people's projects apart goes against the spirit of this forum and would make it a less pleasant place to hang out. Stuff like that is why I avoid most forums.

Don't get me wrong, I can have a laugh at others and at myself, and I think to even go on the internet at all, you need to be a bit thick-skinned...but what bugs me is, the cab in the thread that inspired this one really isn't even all that bad. He made some choices that I wouldn't have made, but I would hardly call that project "CrapMame".

I've been chipping away at a scratch built cab over the last few months and have been a bit reluctant to post a project thread - while I don't think my cab is quite "CrapMame", it is my first real woodworking project, and I don't have tons of money for tools or a great workspace. I've gotta get by with what I've got. It's a bit hard to post that among all the masterpieces on this forum. So then when I see something like this, it makes me really not want to post it. I have been taking pics as I go along, and I may post a few when it's finished if it turns out okayish...but we'll see.

So I think something like this would deter some people from posting their projects. And some of those people could really benefit from some CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, and what's more, we may very well benefit from some innovative idea that they might have...only they may decide not to ever post and then everybody loses.

I hate to sound like some old grump here, I really do. I have a sense of humor, and I think that anyone who posts pics of their cab with a CP the size of a surfboard with 20 buttons per player and 6 steering wheels attached knows that they're going to get made fun of. The jokes and ribbing in that case can actually be pretty funny. But I think having a "council" dedicated to making fun of people's projects crosses the line a bit - I get that it's being done in a satirical way that's not really meant to upset anyone, but I don't think someone who put a lot of hard work, time, and money into a project would really appreciate that.

There is a plague in this country (heck this world) where people think that all opinions, even unqualified ones are valid.  They just aren't... this is the harsh reality of life.  2+2 is 4.... If you have an opinion that 2+2=5 then you are just wrong.  Crap MAME was never about a cabinet being ugly (although that obviously is pointed out), it was about a cabinet being nearly unplayable due to poor design.  I've been here since the beginning and I've seen a gradual improvement in the quality of cabs over the years, but yes, after 15 years I still see people making the same mistakes that make a cab virtually unplayable, so yes, it really is that much of a problem.

If you're trying to say that it's a problem that we tend to take everyone's opinions so seriously nowadays and that no one can ever be called wrong, and that everyone should have praise heaped on them for fear someone might feel bad...then I agree with you. That crap annoys me to no end. BUT, I think it goes both ways. While we shouldn't say "everyone is right" or automatically heap praise on everyone for everything they do, I don't think the solution is to have a "council" dedicated to making fun of people.

Howard, although I vehemently disagree with you on some topics, I've always recognized you as someone who contributes some good stuff to this community...but this is just not one of those things. Please drop it.

 

[Ond]

WOW! what the hell is going on here?  From the seeds of one idea comes another.  I think if you are going to create a new area in the forum for appraising peoples work it should probably be grounded in a positive overall framework as Le Chuck is suggesting.  I've had my share of guilty chuckles at Crapmame and I get the end statements of that site trying to justify the means but at the end of the day it's negative.

Amongst the fur flying here are the seeds of a good idea.   For whatever reasons I'm happy to be excluded from the process (the whole group of me  )  I'd be honoured and my ego would be permanently inflated to insufferable bursting point if there was an OND award.  Go for it.  Edit, I didn't finish this post properly ( I was mobile and rushed it).  Just my 2 cents, I'm against Crap Mame II for this forum but I'm for the alternative Le Chuck has suggested.

cheers

Ond

[Xiaou2]

What purpose?  Umm to keep people from spending a thousand bucks building a machine only to find out that due to their inexperience it's virtually unplayable.

 Your exaggerating.  Modifying a control panel does not take $1000 more dollars.  NOR is there need to TRASH others to drive a point across.

1.  The author who is excited, might go out and build more cabinets with the same problems.  Lots of times people are so excited about the build that they forget to sit down and actually play some games on their creations.

1) Or maybe he likes the cabinet AS-IS, and your OPINION does not matter to him.
2) Maybe he decides to modify later... but doesnt show his new creation, because some A-hole decided to mock him on a website over it.

2.  Other people, with even less experience... see how this cab was praised and copy it only to find out later that it had errors in it's design which hinder playability.  

3) Or maybe they researched his thread, where people more gently told the person some advantages and dis-advantages... without the need to again, Trash the person publicly.

4) Or maybe, theres a site created that gives GOOD drawn out advice, without the need to TRASH others...

There is a plague in this country (heck this world) where people think that all opinions, even unqualified ones are valid.  They just aren't... this is the harsh reality of life.  2+2 is 4.... If you have an opinion that 2+2=5 then you are just wrong.

And yet, your trying to equate actual FACT from OPINION.  There are Plenty of Opinions on the Crap-Site, that have little to Nothing to do with Mathematics, nor FACT.  Its disgusting that you think like this... and that you try to HIDE behind such Garbage.

 

I've been here since the beginning and I've seen a gradual improvement in the quality of cabs over the years, but yes, after 15 years I still see people making the same mistakes that make a cab virtually unplayable, so yes, it really is that much of a problem.

 So what your saying... is that Even with hurting peoples feelings... Trashing them publicly,
that its not doing anything?  So, you think that by doing MORE of that, will change it?  

 Insanity is described as doing the same things over and over again, expecting to get different results.

 In the end, all you are doing is driving many people away.  Stepping on many peoples toes.. and driving them into their own little holes, never to want or care to share again.  (which is one reason why all of my inventions and advice, have been WIPED off this site, on purpose)

1.  As an educational reference... so others can learn from it. - These things need judged because there might be bad advice in there.

2.  For others to give their opinions on it.  - In other words, so people can judge it.

3.  Fishing for compliments and nothing else.  -  I worry about these types of people.

 There are many reasons to put things online.  Most especially if you are happy with the results.  But theres no good reason to TRASH someone over it.  I worry about people like that..  you know, the people who trash others, who have no real interest or care about the person they are trashing.  Who think they are somehow Saving the world, by destroying others. (Nazi-Ism)

Xiaou2:  You have much bigger problems than me.  Seeing this is easy.

Sorry, but its quite the opposite.  And why would you be able to see it... being that you are so stuck on yourself, and oblivious to others?

I'm talking about cabs, and you are talking about people (me).

When you trash someones creations, you are trashing them personally.  If I post a shrine website of all the things the foolish things you have done in your life... making jokes and critical judgements at your expense, you certainly would not be happy about it on a personal level.

 And samely, there are things we make artistically, and or just physically, that we are proud of.  And or later, maybe not so proud of.. yet have to deal with the fact that someone wont take down our old past... and slams it, along with everyone else, on a daily basis.

 Again, it IS personal.  Its just that your a ROBOT, and dont know what PERSONAL means.

 Any critiques I give have a level of distance behind them because I seldom, if ever talk about the person, but you ALWAYS have to talk about the person directly.  I would suggest that before you go around arbitually judging some else's moral compass you look inward and figure out what is so wrong with you that you take the opportunity in a public forum to attack my personal character, when everyone else is discussing the implications of a new website.

 Im giving you Direct personal feedback, rather than be an Anonymous coward and post things on some site. And my feedback, is to try to Stop someone who IS planning to attack others.
There simply is No good reason for it.  Thats what MORALITY IS!!!   A control panel, that isnt up to your spec, does not constitute Failed Morality.  But you somehow See it as that level!  Its messed up.  So yeah, I will Publicly stand up for the Moral rights of myself and others, because Im being Moral.  You cutting people down over opinion of their creations, even and especially Anonymously, is IMMORAL.

I think this has less to do with me, and more to do with the fact that I called you a "king troll" in a previous thread.  I apoligize about that, but to be fair you called me one first and it was completely uncalled for.  Wink

 Actually, I didnt take any offense to it.  I found it sad that you THOUGHT I would... because it shows how messed up you really are.  In fact, there are very few posts in which I actually TROLL.  Most all of my posts are helpful and respectful... and they only go off the deep end when after many repeated negative provocations.

 Look to my posts regarding angles or sticks... and you dont see any insults about other peoples layouts.  I voiced my opinions in a NICE and Moral way... and I didnt Force my view down the person throat.

 What you do IS Trolling however.  You intentionally Try to provoke others negatively... on pretty much every post you make.  If theres a king Troll award out there.. you are far more close to it than I ever will be.   

[Xiaou2]

Xiaou2, you started off quoting me earlier but I think you switched to talking to Howard somewhere in the third paragraph when you made the Nazi comment?  

Just wanting to be clear that wasn't all directed at moi.  The following posts reaffirm that but I totally had to read that post twice.

I fully acknowledge my awareness that Howard isn't always right, but there are some peices of software I have working the way I want only because of Howard and his wrappers.  Credit where credit is due and that is to what I was alluding.

 No Chuck, It was aimed at Howard.

 And for the record, Howard gets off far too easy most of the time, merely because people want something from him.

 I for example, Love the FFB effects he has helped to get instated.  However, Im not one of those people who holds back, merely because of my own desires.  If I feel something is wrong, I will stand up to it no matter what.

 You do not do a person any favors, by letting them off easy, when they are wrong.
My Grama has done that with my uncle.. because she is so paranoid that he will off-himself (he was never even close that point), that she has never righted him.  As such, he cant hold any lasting relationships, is a raging alcoholic, is morally wrong and selfish, and is one step away from landing in jail for a very long time.

[DaveMMR]

My Grama has done that with my uncle.. because she is so paranoid that he will off-himself (he was never even close that point), that she has never righted him.  As such, he cant hold any lasting relationships, is a raging alcoholic, is morally wrong and selfish, and is one step away from landing in jail for a very long time.

Geesh, you don't need to throw your personal family business under the bus to disagree with Howard.  And stop invoking Godwin's law.

[Le Chuck]

All wee cades get automatic honorary mention and I'm in.

I respect your consistency:

The Weecade both looks nothing like an arcade game... it's going to look like a poster glued to an IKEA bookcase.

For the love of Pac-Man, no more laminate cabinets.

No more "inspired by Wee-Cade" cabinets either.

 

Be sure and tell the landlord you're paying rent with those firm convictions next month.

That French cabinet looks no more ridiculous than all the Wee-Cades.

[SammyWI]

Count me among the nays.  Crapmame worked in it's day.  That day is over.

[TopJimmyCooks]

+1 for no crapmame 2.0 associated with this forum.  I would read it and probably laugh if someone started a blog, but I like the positive overall vibe here. I fully confess I piled on the OP's cab, which I have labeled the Log Cab(in) for clarity.  I feel like some of the people that post their bizzarro creations may get one or two lukewarm replies or some criticism.  But at least they don't get fried, unless it's obvious they are clueless or looking to rip unsuspecting lamebrains off, selling 10K Romz on ebay, etc. 

Other random thoughts:

• PBJ:  why the weecade dislike? Just curious. It's a bartop, seems like a decent enough look for that, and certainly well executed. 
• Xiaou2:  Is there a reason why you take out the headers from the quotes showing who posted them?  It's frustrating for this reader.
• My next cab finish:  Astroturf.  Done deal. 

[CheffoJeffo]

FWIW, I'm with BobA on this. And, there is no way that saint would ever want anything exclusionary or mocking associated with his site.

[Nephasth]

All wee cades get automatic honorary mention and I'm in.

I respect your consistency:

The Weecade both looks nothing like an arcade game... it's going to look like a poster glued to an IKEA bookcase.

For the love of Pac-Man, no more laminate cabinets.

No more "inspired by Wee-Cade" cabinets either.

 

Be sure and tell the landlord you're paying rent with those firm convictions next month.

That French cabinet looks no more ridiculous than all the Wee-Cades.

Careful now, PBJ is sensitive to post stalking...

[Le Chuck]

Careful now, PBJ is sensitive to post stalking...

Are we talking like horse head in my bed careful?  Did I just stomp on the toes of a BYOAC mafia boss?