Ultimarc U360 Mod to add rotary function&Top-fire/LED

[Bender]

I was able to convert a U360 to a top fire and then the Idea hit me, why not try to make it rotary too.
I'll have to modify my top fire design too, because it's based on the shaft NOT spinning
but I think I have an idea for that

I saw this hack for a regular joystick
http://www.trimoor.com/rotary_joystick/index.htm

I was thinking I could do something similar by adding a rotary pot to the bottom of the shaft and attaching the magnet to the bottom of that.

also the shaft for the bat type stick is wider than the ball top one and would be easier to hollow out, but has a much larger thread on top. does anyone know if there are ball tops available to fit that thread?

any one know where to buy rotary pots/encoders?
like the one in this mouse

[AndyWarne]

The bat-top shaft is the same diameter as the ball-top except the visible part.

Thats an unusual mouse, never seen one with that type of self-contained encoder before. Is it an old one?

Andy

[Spacejack]

If that didn't work, maybe you could mark the magnet and point an encoder at it somehow, like on a sidelong post.  You'd have to cover up the LED in the ultrastick though.

[Cornchip]

 Cool link Bender. Thanks.

 Cornchip.

[Beley]

...any one know where to buy rotary pots/encoders?
like the one in this mouse....

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=GH3071-ND

resolution might be a bit lower then the one from the old ms mouse though

[Bender]

Hi Andy,

I ment the top thread where the bat or ball top screw on
the thread on the ball top is rather small and would make that shaft harder to hollow out, also the brass insert in the balltop goes quite far up not leaving much room on top for a button, that's why I was wondering if anybody made ball tops with the larger thread from the bat shaft, That's all

I really love that stick and think it is the most versitle product available!

I hope you don't mine us playing with your awsome product
just can't help messing around

Bender

[Bender]

Yeah!!!!
after a very long search I was able to find this very small optical encoder that I think I can get to fit a 9mm U360 shaft, I'll just need a slightly longer shaft
anyone know there to get a longer shaft(Bottom part) that will fit the U360


http://www.usdigital.com/products/e4p/

[AndyWarne]

This is not the best option since its not a self-contained unit. You would need to find a way to locate the stationary part a fixed distance from the optical wheel, at all times. I cant think of a way.
A better option might be the Avago HEDR542X series.
But you would still need to prevent the outer part from turning while still allowing it to move with the stick. Not an easy task.
Andy

[Bender]

This is not the best option since its not a self-contained unit. You would need to find a way to locate the stationary part a fixed distance from the optical wheel, at all times. I cant think of a way.
A better option might be the Avago HEDR542X series.
But you would still need to prevent the outer part from turning while still allowing it to move with the stick. Not an easy task.
Andy

Andy,

not sure what you mean by a self contained unit?
it seems like a self contained unit to me
it seems almost mechanically identical to the Avago HEDR542X, what's the difference?
I'm probably missing something really obvious
you just slide the E4P over the shaft
you do need to have a non-spinning part to attach it to
one thing I like about the E4P is that is available in different resoultions, so for example you could get either a 180 or a 360 both of which are divisable by 8 and 12 so you can get an exact match to rotary games that have 8 or 12 positions
the vago HEDR542X is only available with a 200 resolution, only evenly divisable by 8, not by 12 although thats a pretty minor thing

so I'm doing what has already been done with other rotary sticks by using a fixed pin and a collar to go around it, it's used in both happs (mechanical and optical) and the SNK, like this Ikari stick:


U360 with us-digial encoder and fix position pin


I've already got the rotary part working (played both Ikari, and 50 calibre last night without a hitch, even worked as spinner in tron and passable in tempest (I did have to adjust the sensitivity for each game in Mame)
but I'm still working on incorporating the top fire
as I said I got that to work earlier but had to do by preventing the shaft from spinning so that obviously that won't work here, but I'm workin' on it

thanks for the input,

Bender

[Stub]

You are my hero!!

I would love to make this mod, and I could do most of it, but for the metal fabrication of the slotted plate.

If anyone cares to make a parts kit for this mod I would purchase the first four.

[AndyWarne]

Looks good!
How are you maintaining the gap between the optical disk and the PCB with the sensor?
Andy

[Bender]

Looks good!
How are you maintaining the gap between the optical disk and the PCB with the sensor?
Andy

the top half of the encoder housing (the bottom two pieces in the diagram above) is attached to the metal collar, the optical disk is press-fit onto an extension of the joystick shaft, then the bottom part of the housing (top piece in diagram) clips onto the top with the optical wheel in the center.
The optical disc is reflective with black lines printed on it so there is only a sensor on the top, you don't actually need the bottom part of the housing except to keep stuff out
 

[Dazz]

Andy... you're taking notes right?  Get these into production and I'll definitely make the switch to U360R's!  I want to add rotary joysticks, but I also want to get some digital controllers like your U360.  This mod is a marriage made in heaven....

[Warborg]

Andy... you're taking notes right?  Get these into production and I'll definitely make the switch to U360R's!  I want to add rotary joysticks, but I also want to get some digital controllers like your U360.  This mod is a marriage made in heaven....

Amen.

[AndyWarne]

This is certainly creeping up the priority list. I have a couple of other products in development which are taking up 110% of available time at the moment but I will get onto this.
Thanks to Bender for considerably shortening the R&D time!

To productionize this would mean getting new chrome-plated shafts made but this is not a great issue since we already have replacement longer shafts being produced so this is just a variant.
The U-shaped brackets were expensive to tool-up so we would need to think about which way to do this, possibly spacers would avoid new tooling.
Either the fixed pillar or the flat slotted plate or both would need to be made from nylon or some plastic as metal-metal contact here would not be good.
Andy

[Bender]

Andy,

I'm so glad to help!


I was just doing this to see if it could be done for a small bartop I have in mind.
It was supposed to be a "one of" hack that maybe someone could replicate, so I wasn't originally worried about it from a manufacturing stand point, but I love a challenge, and it would be great for the community if you could just buy one, and since Andy seems interested,
lets see if we can do it.

Bender

[fjl]

Awesome!

Yes please do these. Although I already own two U360's bat tops. Hopefully when(and I mean when not if) these come out there will be an upgrade kit option instead of having to buy the whole new joystick. By the way, will this "mod" interfere with the octagonal restrictor? And when are we getting lighted bat/ball top u360's? Hopefully that can be implemented with this mod as well. Like I mentioned in another thread, I just need rotary and lighted joystick for the u360 and it will be the ultimate joystick ever and will be completely set for my arcade.
 

EDIT:
I just test twisted my two U360 then the TT2 spinner and the U360's don't feel anything nearly as smooth as the TT2's. That might be a problem... 

[Minwah]

EDIT:
I just test twisted my two U360 then the TT2 spinner and the U360's don't feel anything nearly as smooth as the TT2's. That might be a problem... 

But the TT2 is intended for spinning and has bearings, so you wouldn't expect a joystick not designed to spin to be as smooth surely?!?

[AndyWarne]

EDIT:
I just test twisted my two U360 then the TT2 spinner and the U360's don't feel anything nearly as smooth as the TT2's. That might be a problem... 

This will not be a spinner, it will be a rotary joystick. Completely different animal...

Adding top-fire and illumination would be even more difficult as the handle must be able to rotate. Not sure if this will be possible.

Andy

[fjl]

Well hopefully it is implementable with both if not, can you at least make a second u360 that does have bat/ball top illumination without rotary function? The lighted joystick option is one I truly need for my arcade that heavily outweighs the need for a rotary joystick. I'm sure both are implementable but would require higher end calibrated parts that would cost even more to manufacture.

Well at least get me lighted u360 joysticks.

[Bender]

EDIT:
I just test twisted my two U360 then the TT2 spinner and the U360's don't feel anything nearly as smooth as the TT2's. That might be a problem... 

This will not be a spinner, it will be a rotary joystick. Completely different animal...

Adding top-fire and illumination would be even more difficult as the handle must be able to rotate. Not sure if this will be possible.

Andy

Amen,  this a rotary joystick NOT a true spinner all I was saying was that it is possible, as it would be with any optical rotary joystick, to play spinner games, but of course it is not going to spin anywhere near as fast or feel the same

I do think the top fire is possible, and maybe even the illumination, but very difficult
One thing at a time though I think is the best way to approach it(my priorities are rotary, then top fire, then illumination)

I have to take a break from this for a little while to get some work done and wait for some parts, but in a week or so I should have some new Pics!

[Stub]

To be specific you press fit the encoder? Did you drill the shaft for it? In fact did you shorten the shaft or extend the pcb? and did you epoxy the slide plate and magnet to the plastic case?

[Bender]

To be specific you press fit the encoder? Did you drill the shaft for it? In fact did you shorten the shaft or extend the PCB? and did you epoxy the slide plate and magnet to the plastic case?

the encoder it's self is press fit but the housing has to be secured and the height of the PCB is extended
I've been trying some slight variations on how to do this and when I come up with the best one I'll post it with detail and pics

[Stub]

Are you going to recommend sticking with the e4p units? If so i am going to order a couple to start looking at.

[Bender]

Are you going to recommend sticking with the e4p units? If so i am going to order a couple to start looking at.

yes, BUT!!!!!

they make them for different size shafts and I am leaning toward 6mm right now, I started with .250in.
Even though that is a very small difference it is significant to the design

long story short, if you can hold off a little while I wouldn't want you to have to buy them twice, they're pretty expensive little suckers

  good news though, I found a couple of parts that are key and made a couple of breakthroughs this weekend and think I'm getting pretty close to a final design for all three versions

U360 rotary mod
U360 top fire/LED mod
U360 rotary top fire/LED mod

It is taking a little bit longer because originally I wasn't concerned about being able to use the restrictors, but I realized that some people really like them so I want to make them so you can use them, and of course that makes things more challenging

The one thing I could use some help with is machining the shafts
I don't have a way to do this accurately (my drill press just doesn't cut it)

[Bender]

OK any body out there that can mill a JLF joystick shaft with a hole drilled through and some other small alterations

I am at the point where I really need a clean precise job and it is not something I can do myself.  I'm more than happy to pay for the service

Thanks so much!

[Stub]

My drill press is likely in the same state as yours. How big of a hole in the 6mm shaft are we talking? End to end and a bit longer than the standard shaft? Would it be easier to start with stainless tube stock and die and tool it?

[AndyWarne]

OK any body out there that can mill a JLF joystick shaft with a hole drilled through and some other small alterations

We can try to get this done but it might be something of a challenge drilling a hole right through. I guess the shaft needs to be longer to accomodate the optical wheel. We can easily get these made as we already get the original ones made and chrome plated. Starting with a tube might be the way to go, for a hollow version.
Guess the wires for top fire/illumination need to emerge somewhere..
Andy

[Franco B]

OK any body out there that can mill a JLF joystick shaft with a hole drilled through and some other small alterations

I am at the point where I really need a clean precise job and it is not something I can do myself.  I'm more than happy to pay for the service

Thanks so much!

I have a few stainless steel JLF shafts with 3mm holes ready to go. I can do any other modifications too if you like.

The only issue I can see is that because these are stainless scratch made shafts they are not magnetic like the standard plated steel ones and so if you are using them with a U360 then the magnet wont stick. (Although isnt the U360 a modified JLW and not a JLF?)

 

[Bender]

OK any body out there that can mill a JLF joystick shaft with a hole drilled through and some other small alterations

I am at the point where I really need a clean precise job and it is not something I can do myself.  I'm more than happy to pay for the service

Thanks so much!

I have a few stainless steel JLF shafts with 3mm holes ready to go. I can do any other modifications too if you like.

The only issue I can see is that because these are stainless scratch made shafts they are not magnetic like the standard plated steel ones and so if you are using them with a U360 then the magnet wont stick. (Although isnt the U360 a modified JLW and not a JLF?)

 

Hi Franco B, (I was kinda hoping you'd see this) 

Your right I meant JLW
there are two things I'd like to try
If I get you detailed drawings would you be willing to make a couple of each?(actually one you could probably just modify)
could you make them out of something magnetic? it doesn't have to be pretty, this is for a prototype
if not that's ok I can epoxy the magnet on, again it's for a prototype
I know your extremely busy, with the custom cocktail (I check that thread out all the time, truly amazing work) so I really do appreciate any help you could offer on this project

Thanks,

Bender

[Franco B]

No problemo bud. 

I can make you some mild steel ones if you like, they will be magnetic. We should have some bright bar, ill go see what we have.

Yeah if you want to PM or email me a drawing Ill have a look.

[Bender]

Franco B,

You Rock!

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!!!!!

[Bender]

Does anybody know of a good source for small 5v LED's?

I'm making some progress and getting ready to test some of this out and I ned some LED's
I'd like to try a couple different colors and only need a like 4 of each

[Franco B]

I have a load of 13,000MCD Ultrabright blues and some 8,000MCD RGBs that I got off ebay, I can find the sellers for you if you like?

They are really cheap but seem decent quality, they work out to something like 10p (20c) each including resistors.

If you want I could pop a few in the post for you to try? I have some resistors suitable for 5v too.

You can use the RGB ones and just cut off the other colour legs that you don't need for single colour LEDs.

[Stub]

If you use a rgb you will need a 4 conductor plug. If you want a rgb and a top fire can you get away with a combined ground?

[Bender]

What are you using to control the LED's? Ultimarc's pac drive or GGG's led wiz?

Franco,
thanks so much for the offer, it's much appreciated

Seems like GGG has different single colored ones for .49 apiece
I think I'll grab a few from them to test out

I have a 3 conductor plug, I don't see why I couldn't share the ground between the button and the LED,
but I'm no electrician, so I could be wrong
Getting those to work together and fit in the ball top
That's a whole another issue I think it can be done, but it will take sacrificing a 2nd ball top
speaking of that does anyone know where to get a brass insert that will fit the JLW shaft?
I think I'll have to drill out the old one to get the a button in there

[Franco B]

Yeah you would need a four conductor plug for RGB, so far I have only used one of the colour annodes and the cathode in each shaft for a red, green or blue shaft.

You may struggle to fit four LED legs and wires down the bore but it may just about be possible. I countersink my shafts at 60 degrees almost to the thread diameter to give a little more room to get the legs in.

For RGB and a top fire wouldnt you need a 5 conductor plug (if there is such thing) even with a single ground? (Red, Blue, Green, 'Fire' and ground)

Im no electritian either but I wouldnt have thought you would have been able to share the grounds between the encoder and the LED ground seeing as the encoders dont handle much current?

As for LED controllers im using three LED Wiz's and a Pac Drive.

If you are just driving LEDs I would recommend the LED Wiz as you can control the 48 levels of intensity (needed for fading lights etc). The Pac Drive only works as On/Off.

However if you want to run 12v (or even other higher voltages with an external power source) you will need a Pac Drive as the LED Wiz only handles 5v devices.

The LED Wiz is more expensive than the Pac Drive but it has double the number of outputs (32 vs 16). If you only wanted to use a few LEDs/outputs and wanted to keep the cost down you could use the GGG LED Wiz+GP which is basically a 16 port LED/device controller combined with a 16 input encoder.

What are the brass inserts you are talking about? If you stuggle to find some im sure some could be made

[Stub]

I am testing with an LED wiz. Only way to go, I will most likely have 4 of them because each only will handle only 10 RGBs.

I was thinking about a wacky idea, using the steel shaft as the ground. It would save a wire. Anyone think I'm nuts?

[arzoo]

I am testing with an LED wiz. Only way to go, I will most likely have 4 of them because each only will handle only 10 RGBs.

I was thinking about a wacky idea, using the steel shaft as the ground. It would save a wire. Anyone think I'm nuts?

As long as all the other leads are insulated with no exposed connections that could touch the shaft, you'll be fine. It's a good idea considering your limited wiring conduit.

[Franco B]

Good thinking Batman