MAME machine legalities

[ratzz]

Hi all,

A quick head scratcher.

I was wondering what the legalities are of owning a MAME machine and using it to make money from.

I know there are some free (I think) ROMS that are fully available to download and use. What about these?

I am not planning on doing this, I don't even plan to install a coin mech in mine. It was just a thought while I was reading through the forums.

Ratzz ...

[Dire Radiant]

Specifically prohibited by the MAME license.

[ratzz]

See! I knew someone more intelligent than me would know!

[DaOld Man]

I think this would violate the copy rights of the games also.
Actually, legally, you can only own the roms if you own the games circuit board. (For most games).
I think to make money on them would not be covered even by that, but I could be wrong.
But this is a good subject.
I am thinking of opening an arcade, could be a good retirement job.
Does anyone know how one would get started on this?

[Kaytrim]

This subject has been discussed many times over on these forums.  The only way legally to make money is to use the original game boards in a cabinet.  Even if you owned the game board you couldn't use MAME in the machine to make money.

If anyone is wanting to open an Arcade I wish them luck.  The demand just is not there like it used to be back in the 80's.

TTFN
Kaytrim

[FrizzleFried]

Specifically prohibited by the MAME license.

MAME itself is an illegal program.

Owning and distributing MAME itself is legal in the US, as it is merely an emulator. Some companies (notably Sony) have attempted in court to prevent emulators from being sold, but they have been ultimately unsuccessful.[1] As yet, no legal action has been brought against the MAME team.

- Wiki...so take it with a grain of salt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAME

[RayB]

It was just a thought while I was reading through the forums.

All you had to do was use this:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=search

(and the reason I'm saying that, is not to be a d!ck, but because that simple question ALWAYS devolves into 5 page debates and arguments. It gets real ugly.)

[DaOld Man]

If anyone is wanting to open an Arcade I wish them luck.  The demand just is not there like it used to be back in the 80's.

Yeah I know, that would be something to seriously consider.
Its sad....

[Kangum]

only arcade that could survive these days is a arcade full of xboxes. givin the lifespan of the xbox 360 i wouldnt buy to much stock into that investment 

[HaRuMaN]

only arcade that could survive these days is a arcade full of xboxes. givin the lifespan of the xbox 360 i wouldnt buy to much stock into that investment 

Ever been to Gameworks?

[SavannahLion]

Specifically prohibited by the MAME license.

MAME itself is an illegal program.

The case they cite as proof that MAME is legal has very little to do with MAME.  

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2000/02/34281

An emulator is an emulator, regardless of what it emulates. Just because a court case is in support of an emulator for an entirely different system, does not make it any less relevant. Reverse engineering is a very specific and protected right in the U.S. This has been proven numerous times for at least the past twenty years (probably far longer in other fields) with all the major gaming companies including Atari, Nintendo, SEGA, and SONY. And while reverse engineering has been slowly eroded away, it's not entirely gone.

MAME is legal.

If you think otherwise, take it up with the MAME developers.

[FrizzleFried]

MAME is legal.

The Playstation people got away with it because of the way they developed their emulator.

The methods used by the MAME devs are specifically forbidden.  Trust me, if those guys released a MAME CD with an easy to use interface and told you how to get ROMs, they'd be charged criminally and have their asses sued off.

This argument always goes round and round, but in my opinion, just about every MAME developer has committed illegal acts in the process of working on MAME.

Have you ever went over the speed limit?  Have you ever done a "California Stop"?  Have you ever lied on your taxes?

Going over the speed limit has greater ramifications if "things go wrong",  yet I doubt anyone has the opinion that you have "committed illegal acts" because of it. 

...though I wouldn't argue with the fact that the project would be shut down if they encouraged people to use illegal ROMS...but because of the fact there are LEGAL ROM's out there,  the actual program itself can be used LEGITIMATELY to play those LEGAL game ROMS,  I am betting that it falls within the protections created by the referenced court decision.

[SavannahLion]

pinballjim, you know what? Forget it. It's pretty clear you're just fishing for an argument. Want to argue the legality of MAME? Take it up with a lawyer and every major corporation if you think your argument is valid.

[Donkey_Kong]

(and the reason I'm saying that, is not to be a d!ck, but because that simple question ALWAYS devolves into 5 page debates and arguments. It gets real ugly.)

 

[Kaytrim]

MAME is legal.

The Playstation people got away with it because of the way they developed their emulator.

The methods used by the MAME devs are specifically forbidden.  Trust me, if those guys released a MAME CD with an easy to use interface and told you how to get ROMs, they'd be charged criminally and have their asses sued off.

This argument always goes round and round, but in my opinion, just about every MAME developer has committed illegal acts in the process of working on MAME.

Have you ever went over the speed limit?  Have you ever done a "California Stop"?  Have you ever lied on your taxes?

Going over the speed limit has greater ramifications if "things go wrong",  yet I doubt anyone has the opinion that you have "committed illegal acts" because of it. 

...though I wouldn't argue with the fact that the project would be shut down if they encouraged people to use illegal ROMS...but because of the fact there are LEGAL ROM's out there,  the actual program itself can be used LEGITIMATELY to play those LEGAL game ROMS,  I am betting that it falls within the protections created by the referenced court decision.

Yes there are legal ROM files out there.  However they are under the same license as MAME thus can't be used in a money making environment.

[Malenko]

MAME is legal, just as there are legal ways to use it, there are illegal ways to use it.
You cannot use MAME to make money in anyway.

http://mamedev.org/romsfaq.html
http://mamedev.org/license.html
http://mamedev.org/about.html

actually just read all of mamedev.org

[FrizzleFried]

Oh I never suggested MAME was legal in a commercial setting.

[SavannahLion]

It's not legal, period. 

Sorry, MAME is legal in a noncommercial setting. You're just baiting at this point.

Want a solid argument? Forget Nintendo's website, start citing specific court cases and law. Do the research and don't depend on the FUD spread around by both sides. The lines differientating what is and isn't legal are not where you think they are.

[sac01]

errr......But MAME itself has no roms, it mearly emulates hardware.  I don't see how you can make a point of saying the software companys have mearly decided it's not profitable to sue the mame team?  There is no law suit legally possible here that I can see.  You seem to be mixing the fact that while mame can be used to run illegal copys of roms, the emulator itself is just that, an emulator, emulating cpu's and chipsets, not software, not programs.  I beleive that when a chip developer (lets say Motorola) takes out a copyright on something like a 68000 proc. I don't think the copyright protects them from someone developing software to emulate the chip.

I can buy a IC legally that might be use to descramble cable tv if installed into a cable box...but the chip itself is legal, and if I own the cable box and not rent, I can even legally install it into the box....IT becomes illegal as soon as I use it to view a channel I havn't paid for.

[ahofle]

If that were true then people would not have been raided recently for merely distributing/installing modchips (which include no illegal software).

Anyway, here is one of the many threads where this has already been discussed:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=60798.0

[heffe2001]

I would think that the mod-chip raids are done because they are specifically used to play illegally copied games, or more to the point, to get around the encryption included in the system for copyright reasons.   That puts it as a violation of the DMCA, which is a fairly serious offense.  Now any MAME drivers that bypass or hack encryption would also be covered under that I would guess.

[MrMojoZ]

MAME is certainly illegal, just like owning ICs or memory chips is illegal. They could be used to build a board that plays illegal ROMS afterall. Right?

[Zebidee]

I would think that the mod-chip raids are done because they are specifically used to play illegally copied games, or more to the point, to get around the encryption included in the system for copyright reasons.   That puts it as a violation of the DMCA, which is a fairly serious offense.

This legal view is true for the US, but fortunately Australia has a more "mature" copyright law regime which recognises that things like mod-chips have a perfectly legal reason to be in existence - ie, to let consumers be innovative with their own technology and material legitimately licenced for their personal use.  Australian law properly recognises that the copyrights over content for personal use is completely different to the intellectual property involved in the hardware devices (eg xboxes), media (eg DVDs) and anti-circumvention technology. 
 

[SodaPopinksi]

If anyone is wanting to open an Arcade I wish them luck.  The demand just is not there like it used to be back in the 80's.

Yeah I know, that would be something to seriously consider.
Its sad....

I just think you'd need more besides arcade games. In the tourist driven town where I grew up in CT there was a Carousel place with an indoor carousel for the kiddies plus some food and arcade games, air hockey and pinball games in the back (where the older kids would go). It survived during the 90's and might even still be there.

There was also a hotdog type place by the beach with a second room full of arcade games there that survives as well.

[ahofle]

As for the modchip raids.  EVERY SINGLE CASE that I've seen, the seller was busted for distributing illegal copies of games.  I hate yet to see a case where a seller was busted solely and exclusively for selling chips... it'd be very big news in 'teh skeen' if that happened.

Ummm that's exactly what happened about a month ago.

[Havok]

Hey PinballJim,

How about some citations instead of vague erroneous statements?

 

Oh, wait, here's one:

Sony vs. Connectix

Precedent: emulation is legal...

[ids]

omgwtflol

imho, MAME itself is legal, they emulate CPU's, which nobody can argue as illegal, else the XBOX360 (non-Intel cpu) emulating old xbox (Intel cpu) would be illegal. etc, etc.  They emulate other aspects etc.  The decrypting of ROMs may be an issue with the millenium copyright biznit in the US, but thankfully, not all citizenz of planit earth live where Mr Bush makes life better for his corporate frendz at the great expense of the voter.  This whole thread is getting old -- we can all download mame, nobody (fingers crossed) is trying to make money from it....

life carries on

I thank all the mame devs and dont much care bout the rest

[RayB]

Mod chips are only illegal in the US and a handful of other countries who have lubed up and bent over to US pressure to conform to their laws.

PinballJ, a little educating for you:
A microchip does not contain a "software program". It contains millions of micro sized logic gates that control the flow of electrons (in other words, shifting around bits and bytes of data). The design for a microchip is PATENTED. A patent lasts for 20 years and then can be freely copied even for commercial purposes.

MAME is software that imitates the shifting of bits and bytes of specific microchips, according to a set of instructions. This is perfectly legal, as it falls under the patent category.  As for the "set of instructions", this is the game's "software". Any software that is part of a game board's collection of chips falls into the category of either the ROM set or a BIOS (and yes those things are copyrighted). MAME does not distribute game ROMs and AFAIK they don't distribute BIOS files either.

[Zebidee]

In the hobby world in which we operate, where making money is mostly limited to the non-copyrighted paraphenalia associated with arcade games (eg cabs, controllers & configuration), legality is not really an issue.  I mean, who really cares?

What gets my goat (ie what goads me) though is how I self-impose restrictions on how I sell one of my cabs (designed for home use, no coin mech, no roms etc), but I constantly see 1000+ games PCBs in cabinets for sale on ebay with impunity.

In case you don't realise, these 39+, 400+ & 1000+ games PCBs are just hacked versions of mame into a stripped down & specialised PC.  Mostly coming from short-lived companies in China.  There is nothing "legal" about them, certainly no more so than mame.  But they seem to get conveniently ignored.   

[Green Giant]

Pinballjim,

Clearly you believe everything people tell you.  You are most likely trying but failing to use the DMCA.  Before you try to speak of technology copyright infringement, make sure you read the law, not some stupid summary.

I spent the time to read the entire law and have an answer for you.

The DMCA states no software can circumvent copyrighted material, but it also gives several allowances to this law.  If the copyrighted material, in this case the rom, is not readily available by the copyright owner, use of a program to bypass it, mame in this case, is perfectly legal.

Sony has attempted a law suit against emulators because there product is still making a profit.  Nintendo hasn't seen profit from the original Donkey Kong roms in decades.

Now if you live somewhere other than the US, there might be laws saying mame is illegal. 

Didn't you ever wonder why you can't find roms to play on mame for games still in bars, Golden Tee 2006?

From the immortal words of you.

Get a clue before you comment.

[Zebidee]

Now if you live somewhere other than the US, there might be laws saying mame is illegal. 

Just so happens that I have some background in this particular area of international law. 

I'm pretty sure that he US jurisdiction is the hardest in the world regarding copyright protected by anti-circumvention technology, emulators, roms, copyright protection.  The US has been pushing hard in these areas internationally over the past decade or so, and had some limited successes through international agreements, especially bilateral FTAs (Free Trade Agreements).

US agenda is clear - tighter copyright and intellectual property protection advantages the US, as it is a net exporter of these things (in fact, largest producer in the world).  Therefore it generally advantages the US to make sure that there is greater legal protection over intellectual property, in favour of the original producers.  That is, US technology and content producers stand to gain from stronger laws protecting their rights to exploit their IP commercially.  Therefore, the US tries to call mod-chips "illegal".

I'll shut up now 

[sac01]

"PinballJ, a little educating for you:
A microchip does not contain a "software program". It contains millions of micro sized logic gates that control the flow of electrons (in other words, shifting around bits and bytes of data). The design for a microchip is PATENTED. A patent lasts for 20 years and then can be freely copied even for commercial purposes."

-Thank you for that reply

PinballJim, I've been compiling & changing for personal use my own builds of mame for use on my 4 mame cabs in my basement since the build versions were somewhere in the low .30's  So I do know just alittle bit about mame & it's code.  I stand by what I said, your confusing the copyright laws and the difference between what is considered software and hardware.

As far as the mod chip's go it would be more accurate to say while it might be considered illegal to buy a modchip in some areas it could never be considered illegal to buy a blank eprom and a epromburner...now what you did with that hardware and what you copied onto it, and uses thereafter is where the legal part comes in.     

[SavannahLion]

Mod chips are only illegal in the US and a handful of other countries who have lubed up and bent over to US pressure to conform to their laws.

Guess I'll have to throw out my PICs and AVRs because they're illegal.  Uh Oh! The Immigrations and Customs Enforcement is at my door, hang on while I show them my chips.

The difficulty in extracting the exact legal reasoning lay in the fact the court case isn't being discussed. It's more likely the mod chip err... employees were arrested for distributing illegal ROMS and bypassing security measures on the aforementioned consoles, which are specifically mentioned. The mod chips were more likely swept up as part of the investigation, legal or not. This is the same process as any other search and seizure.

[FrizzleFried]

Pinballjim's RIGHT!  He's RIGHT DAMNIT!

HE IS RIGHT!

You're right Jim!

Correct.

Uh huh.

On top of it.

The shiz.

YOU,  my friend....ARE THE MAN!

Thanks for  the insight.

(just agree with him people...)

[FrizzleFried]

(just agree with him people...)

I personally have no problem with MAME or people that use it, but it cracks me up when dorks get all huffy about "that violates the MAME license!!!" or "my software and ROMs are all perfectly legal!!" when they're damn lucky they haven't gotten a court summons.

I'm agreeing with you Jim.... you're right man.

[DaOld Man]

I just think you'd need more besides arcade games. In the tourist driven town where I grew up in CT there was a Carousel place with an indoor carousel for the kiddies plus some food and arcade games, air hockey and pinball games in the back (where the older kids would go). It survived during the 90's and might even still be there.

There was also a hotdog type place by the beach with a second room full of arcade games there that survives as well.

Thanks sodapopinski..
That is something else to think of.. We need an angle.. something to bring people in..
Ive thought of pool tables, but I really wouldnt want an adult only place that would drive kids away. The kids are where the quarters are.
Maybe we should start a new thread about this subject, get it out of all the mame legalities going on here. (Man I hate lawyer talk, been divorced twice, hate lawyers too.)
 

[sac01]

Quote
PinballJim, I've been compiling & changing for personal use my own builds of mame for use on my 4 mame cabs in my basement since the build versions were somewhere in the low .30's  So I do know just alittle bit about mame & it's code.

Quote
You altered the software, you didn't develop it.  So what?  I posted years ago on alt.games.mame on how to disable copyright messages, does that make me some expert like you, too?



Yes that makes you and expert... ...Or someone who goes around publically doing what the mame devs have asked not be done.   Either way I think you missed the point.  I understand what has gone into the mame code.

Ok So what's your deal? Do you collect pinball machines?  Lets say you do and after searching high and low to replace a trashed eprom that goes to one of your most treasured pinball mechs you discover the only way to get it back up and running is to use the dump from a pinmame rom an burn a new eprom....What do you do Jim???

[SavannahLion]

(just agree with him people...)

I don't, but it's pretty obvious he's oblivious to his own arguments inability to hold water. Arguing with him would be like arguing with a fifteen year old.

[MrMojoZ]

Just so I understand, pinballjim is also saying reverse engineering is illegal? 

[shardian]

Just so I understand, pinballjim is also saying reverse engineering is illegal? 

Not being pinballjim is illegal, thus, everything any of us say or do is illegal.