Is Foley really the devil..?? (Previously: RetroBlast is a traitor..??)

[SirPoonga]

By the way Kev,
Do you plan to ever do a review of the GP-Wiz49 ?
and possibly revise your KEYWIZ MAX 1.5 review?
I believe Tiger-Heli posted this for you some time ago:
http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/rebuttal.htm

How can RandyT stop you from revieing the wiz49?

Heh, I read the rebuttal.  It's obvious Tigerheli hasn't used an ipac.  he makes statements about what he thinks about the ipac that just aren;t true.

I should make a rebuttal of the rebuttal.

I for one find Kevin's review of the keywiz subjective.  It shows pros and cons.  While it doesn't show ALL the features and uses of the keywiz he also doesn't counter with all of the features and uses of the ipac.  Just with what he thinks is relevant.

Why does RandyT not like the review?  It isn't positive or negative. 

[Tiger-Heli]

How can RandyT stop you from revieing the wiz49?

He can't stop him, he just isn't going to provide one.  However, given the flap over the KeyWiz review, I think it's a good idea that someone else do the review for RetroBlast.

Heh, I read the rebuttal.  It's obvious Tigerheli hasn't used an ipac.  he makes statements about what he thinks about the ipac that just aren;t true.

Which statements?

I should make a rebuttal of the rebuttal.

As long as I can verify your comments, I'll fix the rebuttal.

Why does RandyT not like the review?  It isn't positive or negative. 

RandyT didn't like the fact that it got compared to the I-PAC when KevSteele said it would just be a review.  Also some nuances, like Kev saying that he preferred EEPROM to SDRAM, but not mentioning (or updating the review to mention) that the KeyWiz software has a "Virtual EEPROM" feature where it loads the last codeset on re-boot.  Stuff like that.

[Zakk]

WHOA !! Who the <censored> are you??? After glancing about your webpage, I can see why you made those comments towards me. You, like a handful of others, are only contributing to very problem that's being discussed here.

Schooltime, ol' Zakk goodbuddy!! A problem just doesn't arise, it builds gradually over time, then usually explodes right in your face. If you <censored> long enough to realize it's not only the $4000 cabs that ruined it, but also the $500-$2000 cabs from the so-called hobbyist of our community, you might actually hear a ring of truth from my original comments.

Blaming Foley, KevSteele, and or even the MAMEdevs at this point in the game is ridiculous. One has to look back to the beginning, the very reason we're talking about this right now.

[KevSteele]

For those of you that feel my reviews are too positive, I just finished a product review of something that I definitely feel is a piece of...erm...poop:

http://retroblast.com/misc/MG2005.html

 

Kevin

[Zakk]

For those of you that feel my reviews are too positive, I just finished a product review of something that I definitely feel is a piece of...erm...poop:

http://retroblast.com/misc/MG2005.html

 

Kevin

I can't tell, is that an ultracade product?





(ooooh I couldn't resist!!!!) 

[RandyT]

Gahhh!!!  I can't take it any more 

Listen folks, an arcade cab is nothing more than a PC in a fancy entertainment center, with a nice place to mount your joysticks and buttons so you don't have to hang onto them.  THAT'S IT!!

It has nothing to do with MAME, or illegal ROMS or Foley or Steele or anyone.

I've had either home-built control panels or full size cabinets for an Atari 2600, ColecoVision, Odyssey2, and Amiga computers long before MAME ever found it's way into everyone's psyche.

You can buy compilations of the classic games at any BestBuy, Target or Wal-Mart.

You can go out on the net and find TONS of great freeware/shareware games that will be fantastic on a home arcade machine, many that are much better than some of the 20 year old curiosities that were actually in the arcades.  Some of those oldies have even been updated by private individuals to take advantage of all of this neat new technology we have around us now.

Building control panels and home arcade cabinets does not revolve around MAME or any of these high-profile (to us; the rest of the world doesn't know they exist) players that would like you to think otherwise.

Here are some opinions, if anyone cares :

RetroBlast - You are watching a hobby transmogrify into a business.  You can't have utopian ideals and expect a business venture to succeed.  It doesn't get much simpler than that.

Foley - Ehh... whatever.  I think they are starting to take a "if you can't beat them, join them" approach, based on some of their recent offerings.  Ultracade is a relative newcomer to the home market.  They built their business and made their deals (from what I can see) on licensing that allows real arcade machine "operators" to collect cash for play.  If I went through all those hoops and saw people selling cabinets with fully functional coin doors and copyrighted images of game characters on the sides, ready for the local bar or laundromat, I'd probably be a little miffed too.

MAME - I love these guys for their determination and the whole "look what a pantload of talented people with unified goals can accomplish" thing.  Unfortunately, in the eyes of the sleazeballs that exist only to take advantage of their work, the project is far enough along that the developers have made themselves irrelevant.  I hope they keep doing what they do best and the ones who have no respect for their work leave them the heck alone.  I'm sick of seeing MAME(tm) compatible carriage bolts on eBay as well.

iROMS - As others have stated, if there were a real market, it would have long been tapped.  Think about it this way:  When the big companies can't keep a compilation of 10 or 15 of it's best classic arcade offerings out of the "Value Software" bin, what makes you think it will do so much better with a most likely higher priced service like this one?  This is not the music biz, where there are new titles coming out every day that people want to download.  There are no "new" 20 year old video games.  The business models aren't even close.

Perspective is what is required here.  This is, and in the greater scheme of things will likely remain, a niche market.  The market is currently overstated, as many newcomers to the "business" side can probably attest to (but they won't).  The best evidence is when the "big players" close up shop for a while when the "day job" gets too hectic.  A well-known company in a real market doesn't need a day job, nor would they want one (voice of experience from a past life )

Have fun with the hobby and take the politics as lightly as possible because  in reality, at least at this point in time, it's like ants killing each other for a sesame seed.

RandyT

[SirPoonga]

Heh, I read the rebuttal.  It's obvious Tigerheli hasn't used an ipac.  he makes statements about what he thinks about the ipac that just aren;t true.

Which statements?

Come in to chat, I will discuss with you.  Such as you don;t seem to understand the keyboard programming the ipac has.

Why does RandyT not like the review?  It isn't positive or negative. 

RandyT didn't like the fact that it got compared to the I-PAC when KevSteele said it would just be a review.  Also some nuances, like Kev saying that he preferred EEPROM to SDRAM, but not mentioning (or updating the review to mention) that the KeyWiz software has a "Virtual EEPROM" feature where it loads the last codeset on re-boot.  Stuff like that.

But you hav eto compare it in a review.  That's part of a review, to compare it to competitors so the reader can make up their mind of which one is best, assuming a non-bias review.

Something to discuss in chat, the EEPROM vs SDRAM is a big deal.  You need the software for the keywiz in order to use it then.  So if you use a linux boot cd you are screwed.

That and the keyboard LEDs are the two reason enough I think one shouldn't get the keywiz.  most people in this community are in this community to reproduce the arcade experience.  Having blinking start buttons that work as they are suppose it part of that experience.

The only thing bad about Kevin's review as I see it is he didn't cover all the possible uses for the features which is what most of your complaints are based on.  He covered the most common uses.  Like I said, he then didn't compare it to all the ipac features it doesn't have, just the common ones people use most often.

[SirPoonga]

Listen folks, an arcade cab is nothing more than a PC in a fancy entertainment center, with a nice place to mount your joysticks and buttons so you don't have to hang onto them.  THAT'S IT!!

WRONG!  It's about recreating the arcade experience.  Physically that is all it is.  But that's not why people make them.  They don't make them just to house a pc and hang joysticks on.

You can go out on the net and find TONS of great freeware/shareware games that will be fantastic on a home arcade machine, many that are much better than some of the 20 year old curiosities that were actually in the arcades.  Some of those oldies have even been updated by private individuals to take advantage of all of this neat new technology we have around us now.

Building control panels and home arcade cabinets does not revolve around MAME or any of these high-profile (to us; the rest of the world doesn't know they exist) players that would like you to think otherwise.

True, but you have to remember the main reason people are in this hobby is because of mame.  Not because of the thousands of shareware.  however, you find the shareware and you realize there is more than just mame.

[MrTroy]

For those of you that feel my reviews are too positive, I just finished a product review of something that I definitely feel is a piece of...erm...poop:

http://retroblast.com/misc/MG2005.html

 Wink

I don't see where the monitor plugs in

[SirPoonga]

iROMS - As others have stated, if there were a real market, it would have long been tapped.  Think about it this way:  When the big companies can't keep a compilation of 10 or 15 of it's best classic arcade offerings out of the "Value Software" bin, what makes you think it will do so much better with a most likely higher priced service like this one?  This is not the music biz, where there are new titles coming out every day that people want to download.  There are no "new" 20 year old video games.  The business models aren't even close.

there is a market.  Why do you think Atari pulled all those roms from starroms?  The Atari 80 game collection is $20 and not in bargin bins, been like that for many months.

Perspective is what is required here.  This is, and in the greater scheme of things will likely remain, a niche market.  The market is currently overstated, as many newcomers to the "business" side can probably attest to (but they won't).  The best evidence is when the "big players" close up shop for a while when the "day job" gets too hectic.  A well-known company in a real market doesn't need a day job, nor would they want one (voice of experience from a past life Smiley )

Have fun with the hobby and take the politics as lightly as possible because  in reality, at least at this point in time, it's like ants killing each other for a sesame seed.

Exactly.  This community is about recreating the the arcade experience and have fun.

[RandyT]

Listen folks, an arcade cab is nothing more than a PC in a fancy entertainment center, with a nice place to mount your joysticks and buttons so you don't have to hang onto them.  THAT'S IT!!

WRONG!  It's about recreating the arcade experience.  Physically that is all it is.  But that's not why people make them.  They don't make them just to house a pc and hang joysticks on.

Sorry, but you are attaching emotion to something to make it more than what it is.

I don't "feel like I'm at the arcade" when I'm playing at my Defender cabinet.  If I had about 30 more, all making noise and a bunch of jerky kids with mullets talking smack around me, then maybe.  An arcade machine is a functional piece of equipment that makes playing games more enjoyable.

True, but you have to remember the main reason people are in this hobby is because of mame. Not because of the thousands of shareware. however, you find the shareware and you realize there is more than just mame.

That's because MAME is there and is used heavily to market the idea.  If MAME wasn't there, the other marketing methods would likely have proven just as effective.

After all, who doesn't want an arcade machine at home, regardless of whether MAME is driving it or not?

RandyT

[ChadTower]

I'm thinking this community in the thread is resembling salem, Mass. about 300 years ago. Lets here the other side of the story first.

Erm, no.

[RandyT]

there is a market.  Why do you think Atari pulled all those roms from starroms?

Uhhh...because they weren't performing well in that venue??

The Atari 80 game collection is $20 and not in bargin bins, been like that for many months.

Let's see....that comes out to 25 cents a game.  Jeez, how much cheaper do you think the iROMS thing will be?



RandyT

[SirPoonga]

Listen folks, an arcade cab is nothing more than a PC in a fancy entertainment center, with a nice place to mount your joysticks and buttons so you don't have to hang onto them.  THAT'S IT!!

WRONG!  It's about recreating the arcade experience.  Physically that is all it is.  But that's not why people make them.  They don't make them just to house a pc and hang joysticks on.

Sorry, but you are attaching emotion to something to make it more than what it is.

I don't "feel like I'm at the arcade" when I'm playing at my Defender cabinet.  If I had about 30 more, all making noise and a bunch of jerky kids with mullets talking smack around me, then maybe.  An arcade machine is a functional piece of equipment that makes playing games more enjoyable.

RandyT

Reread my eit first.

No, it's about recreating the experience.  Otherwise we'd all be happy with a desktop controller and a pc.

Example, that's why I will take an ipac over a keywiz.  The blinking start buttons adds to the experience.

Just becuase you don't strive for the experience doesn't mean others don't.  So that makes your defender example very convenient.

[SirPoonga]

there is a market.  Why do you think Atari pulled all those roms from starroms?

Uhhh...because they weren't performing well in that venue??

That's a relative terms.  They weren't performing to Atari's standards henc ethem pulling them and trying to sell the gmaes themselves.  They still think the games are sellable, so there is a market.

The Atari 80 game collection is $20 and not in bargin bins, been like that for many months.

Let's see....that comes out to 25 cents a game.  Jeez, how much cheaper do you think the iROMS thing will be?



RandyT

Did I say anyhting about iROMS.  I don't get your comment.  I was saying it isn't in the bargin bin, and it hasn't been since it came out.  Bargin bins are usually $10 or less and have there own spot in the store.  So how does the iROMS statement relate to that???

[Tiger-Heli]

Come in to chat, I will discuss with you.  Such as you don;t seem to understand the keyboard programming the ipac has.

Never been to Chat.  I clicked Chatroom above and it gives me a screen that says "Enter Nick"  (would that be yours or mine?) and regardless says "Could not establish connection to irc.scifi-fans.net on port 7,000"

We can talk about the programming. 

Something to discuss in chat, the EEPROM vs SDRAM is a big deal.  You need the software for the keywiz in order to use it then.  So if you use a linux boot cd you are screwed.

You need the software if you are not using the default codeset.  MAME on Linux will work fine with it.  If you want to play PC games on Linux with it, you might be better with another encoder, more due to the I-PAC having Linux programmable software than due to EEPROM.

That and the keyboard LEDs are the two reason enough I think one shouldn't get the keywiz.  most people in this community are in this community to reproduce the arcade experience.  Having blinking start buttons that work as they are suppose it part of that experience.

For about a dozen games.  (Otherwise the lights on the KeyWiz work as they are supposed to, they aren't included and don't do anything).  Don't get me wrong, I like the LED function, but this will all be moot when Buddabing's LED controller or RandyT's gets released.

[SirPoonga]

Come in to chat, I will discuss with you.  Such as you don;t seem to understand the keyboard programming the ipac has.

Never been to Chat.  I clicked Chatroom above and it gives me a screen that says "Enter Nick"  (would that be yours or mine?) and regardless says "Could not establish connection to irc.scifi-fans.net on port 7,000"

Say something in the board discussion forum.  Enter nikck is what nick you want to use.

We can talk about the programming. 

Something to discuss in chat, the EEPROM vs SDRAM is a big deal.  You need the software for the keywiz in order to use it then.  So if you use a linux boot cd you are screwed.

You need the software if you are not using the default codeset.  MAME on Linux will work fine with it.  If you want to play PC games on Linux with it, you might be better with another encoder, more due to the I-PAC having Linux programmable software than due to EEPROM.

Depends on how you use it.  Note i said live linux cd, hence you probably won't have the software  on it.  So being able to program the ipac without software is a must.

That and the keyboard LEDs are the two reason enough I think one shouldn't get the keywiz.  most people in this community are in this community to reproduce the arcade experience.  Having blinking start buttons that work as they are suppose it part of that experience.

For about a dozen games.  (Otherwise the lights on the KeyWiz work as they are supposed to, they aren't included and don't do anything).  Don't get me wrong, I like the LED function, but this will all be moot when Buddabing's LED controller or RandyT's gets released.

Much more than a dozen.  Practically all the atari games.  It's a small percentage of mame, but a larger percentage of the games people actually play.  Especially if all you play are the "classics". 

And no, it doesn't make it a moot point.  With the ipac you get the functionality in one board, no two seperate purchases.  Yes, however, with the led driver there is more flexibiility, but then you need software to actually use it correctly.  Hence if you wanted to have it work with mame code changes to mame will need to take place.

But like I said, there's a whole bunch of other issues with the rebuttal that would best be discussed in a one on one format.

If you are using firefox use chatzilla to hook up with chat   i t hought it was port 6667, so the java app is probably not configured correctly.

[RandyT]

there is a market.  Why do you think Atari pulled all those roms from starroms?

Uhhh...because they weren't performing well in that venue??

That's a relative terms.  They weren't performing to Atari's standards henc ethem pulling them and trying to sell the gmaes themselves.  They still think the games are sellable, so there is a market.

Why do I feel like I just told you that there's no Santa Claus.  Look, if the titles were selling well in  that very iROMS like service, they would still be there.  They aren't, and that says something.  This is part of the "perspective" I talked about.

Did I say anyhting about iROMS.  I don't get your comment.  I was saying it isn't in the bargin bin, and it hasn't been since it came out.  Bargin bins are usually $10 or less and have there own spot in the store.  So how does the iROMS statement relate to that???

You took my comments out of context, I was just trying to put them back in.  Regardless, you take a 15 game compilation at .25 per game, that's $3.75.  A rational person could look at an 80 game compilation at that cost per title and come to the conclusion that it was released into the value bin.

Just becuase you don't strive for the experience doesn't mean others don't.  So that makes your defender example very convenient.

My Defender never had blinky lights for start buttons, nor do a few thousand others.  And the thought of you "striving" for the arcade experience in your apartment is bringing a tear to my eye (J/K, <elbow to the ribs> and all that stuff)

RandyT

*edit*
spelling...

[SirPoonga]

Why do I feel like I just told you that there's no Santa Claus.  Look, if the titles were selling well in  that very iROMS like service, they would still be there.  They aren't, and that says something.  This is part pf the "perspective" I talked about.

Oh, I get it, you are confusing starroms with iROMs. 
I think starroms didn't take off because of poor marketting.  They mainly just hit mame.net.

You took my comments out of context, I was just trying to put them back in.  Regardless, you take a 15 game compilation at .25 per game, that's $3.75.  A rational person could look at an 80 game compilation at that cost per title and come to the conclusion that it was released into the value bin.

However, most people won't think what a deal, 80 games for $20, so that's $0.25 per game.  They will decide if they want to spend their $20 on that versus the $20 software next to it, so they will see it as one package.

And the thought of you "striving" for the arcade experience in your apartment is bringing a tear to my eye (J/K, <elbow to the ribs> and all that stuff)

I'm not the only one, that's my point.  Most people here are building a cabinet because they want the arcade experience.  Yes, your defender doesn't have blinking start buttons, but almost everything atari does.  And that makes up a rather large percentage of the games in mame that are played.

And my arcade experience is differnt than yours.  I don't think crowded arcade with noisy people.  I think 1 or 2 games in a restaurant.  By me when growing up there wasn't an arcade in the area.  And most of the good games are atari from that era.

Just because you don't do something doesn't mean the rest of the community doesn't.

[Tiger-Heli]

I don't think I have a chatzilla.  Firefox doesn't want me to install it (to protect my computer).  Not having much luck with this chat idea.

[SirPoonga]

pm me if you have aim or msn.

[Tiger-Heli]

Don't have either of those either.

[IntruderAlert]

I've never understood why so many people have to advertise their stuff on ebay as MAME compatible instead of PC compatible.
But since so many people do that it makes it easy for Foley and others to target them.
If they just said "PC compatible" or "compatible with all Arcade Emulators for the PC" I don't see how they could be attacked.

And what exactly is the real concern of Foley?
The ROMS themselves or just the elimination of any possible competition no matter how insignificant?

I mean.. when they're pulling auctions for T-Mold and keyboard encoders something is definitely wrong with this picture.
What the heck does Foley expect people to run the IROMS on anyway?

[RandyT]

Oh, I get it, you are confusing starroms with iROMs. 
I think starroms didn't take off because of poor marketting.  They mainly just hit mame.net.

Anyone even remotely involved in this hobby knows about StarROMS.  Marketing isn't the problem.

However, most people won't think what a deal, 80 games for $20, so that's $0.25 per game.  They will decide if they want to spend their $20 on that versus the $20 software next to it, so they will see it as one package.

This affects the "end-price per title" how?

Again, I think most people will do the math, just like if they were buying ketchup (provided it's the kind of ketchup they like)

And my arcade experience is differnt than yours.  I don't think crowded arcade with noisy people.  I think 1 or 2 games in a restaurant.  By me when growing up there wasn't an arcade in the area.  And most of the good games are atari from that era.

Ahh, so really, you are "striving" more for a "restaurant with a couple of games" experience, rather than a true arcade one

Just because you don't do something doesn't mean the rest of the community doesn't.

IMHO, based on the above comment, I'm thinking it might just be you who is in the minority

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

And what exactly is the real concern of Foley?
The ROMS themselves or just the elimination of any possible competition no matter how insignificant?

Unfair competition is what his original letters stated.

What the heck does Foley expect people to run the IROMS on anyway?

He sells a $4,000 arcade cabinet that he would let you buy. 

[SirPoonga]

IMHO, based on the above comment, I'm thinking it might just be you who is in the minority

Who's been in this community longer?
Who chats regularly with the people of this community in the chat room?
Who interacts with more people here?

There's three types of gamers here, in general.  There's those who play the classics (anything before 1990 basically), those who play early-mid 90s games, and those who play the more modern games.
Most everyone in the classics section will want to replicate the blinking lights because most of the games in that era are atari.  it's that simple.

Anyone even remotely involved in this hobby knows about StarROMS.  Marketing isn't the problem.

Then why say that iROMs like service, why not call them by name?

Again, they didn't sell because atari didn't think they were doing as good of a job as atari hoped for and decided to try it for themselves.  That still proves my point they are markettable.

This affects the "end-price per title" how?

Again, I think most people will do the math, just like if they were buying ketchup (provided it's the kind of ketchup they like)

It doesn't affect the end-price per game at all.  It does affect the title.  The title is something liek Atari Aniversity set.  It's still one box, you can't buy them individually.  So a person is going to compare if they want to get that versus another box that is $20.  And $20 is not bargin bin.  if they were selling each game individually for $0.25 in the bargin bin then it would be bargin bin.

Ahh, so really, you are "striving" more for a "restaurant with a couple of games" experience, rather than a true arcade one

Either way, since atari was very popular in the 80s reproducing the LEDs is a must in my book.  It's part of the experience.
Funny thing is I was talking to someone about their DigDug machine.  i told him a year or so ago I found a bug in the LED handler for the mame driver.  He told me DigDug didn;t have blinking lights.  I asked if he had the volcano buttons on his cabinet.  he said yes.  I said check if they are hooked up correctly.  Low and behold, he now has blinking lights

Edit:  proof people are looking for lighted start buttons.  Look at the fact that people ask where to get volcanos quite often around here.

[RayB]

Why isn't this thread locked yet? aaahhhhggg

I just want to say that the only business model that would work is a virtual online arcade where you actually pay like a nickel or dime per game and then get a bill at the end of the month. You give the illusion of "cheap" but when you get addicted and play and play it adds up to nice profits. (only would work with the proven classics though).

[RandyT]

IMHO, based on the above comment, I'm thinking it might just be you who is in the minority

Who's been in this community longer?

Uh-oh, looks like we went over the "pull out the ruler" line.

I had a ColecoVision hacked into a home-built arcade cabinet with 2 real WICO leaf joysticks and leaf pushbuttons before there was even an Internet for you to log into.  Don't base the world on what you see on your monitor.

Who chats regularly with the people of this community in the chat room?

Every time I drop in, there's almost nobody (but you) in there.  Either you are scaring them off, or this is more evidence of the niche market I spoke of.  The forums are a better way to find info with less bias anyway.

Who interacts with more people here?

I experience your "interaction" all the time.  Don't think I would miss it  (and I'm sure others will say the same of me )

There's three types of gamers here, in general.  There's those who play the classics (anything before 1990 basically), those who play early-mid 90s games, and those who play the more modern games.
Most everyone in the classics section will want to replicate the blinking lights because most of the games in that era are atari.  it's that simple.

When you are ready to back this up with some numbers, be sure to post back.  By my count, the assertion you just made about pre-1990's games is bizarre at best.

Then why say that iROMs like service, why not call them by name?

Because they were the context of our discussion.  I wasn't avoiding their name, and I know it well.

Again, they didn't sell because atari didn't think they were doing as good of a job as atari hoped for and decided to try it for themselves.  That still proves my point they are markettable.

Yes, at 25 cents per title

Either way, since atari was very popular in the 80s reproducing the LEDs is a must in my book.  It's part of the experience.
Funny thing is I was talking to someone about their DigDug machine.  i told him a year or so ago I found a bug in the LED handler for the mame driver.  He told me DigDug didn;t have blinking lights.  I asked if he had the volcano buttons on his cabinet.  he said yes.  I said check if they are hooked up correctly.  Low and behold, he now has blinking lights

When LEDs become important, the KeyWiz will have very good support for them.  Although this may be moot when the LED-Wiz and Budda's LED controller hit, depending on gl.tter's progress of course.

While the LED start lights are a neat "doo-dad" they add nothing to the gameplay.  If you are placing that much emphasis on them, you've probably lost sight of what you built your cabinet for.  I hope you didn't spend $1000 to watch a button blink when you put a quarter in.

RandyT

[quarterback]

Who's been in this community longer?

Uh-oh, looks like we went over the "pull out the ruler" line.

I had a ColecoVision hacked into a home-built arcade cabinet with 2 real WICO leaf joysticks and leaf pushbuttons before there was even an Internet for you to log into.

[ChadTower]

I think LEDs are important now.

[IntruderAlert]

I don't see what you guys are arguing for.

Foley wants to put an end to the BYO-ArcadeControls community
Why else would he be pulling auctions for T-Mold and keyboard encoders and such?

All off this stuff about the roms is just a smokescreen and a method of disrupting the spirit here

[JoyMonkey]

I haven't followed this thread fully, and I'm not sure how it got onto LEDs, but I've always used KeyWiz's in the past and have been very happy with them. But, I just ordered a couple of IPacs for the sole reason that the IPac has a header for the 3 keyboard LEDs - 3 LEDs is all I need and I gladly paid $20 extra for an encoder that supports them.

[RandyT]

I think LEDs are important now.

That's fine.  How do you have them implemented on your panel/cab?

There can be some hefty costs associated with them, especially if you want those cone switches SirPoonga keeps referring to.  If you want to re-create that "experience", you'll have a tough time of it.

Aside from encoder support, to drive them properly, you'll need an LED driver board (if that design will even work on these, I'm assuming it does) as well as the buttons themselves.  The driver board can be picked up at Gamecab for about $14.00 and that's a steal compared to what the buttons will cost you.  They have been out of production for a very long time, so an old CP on eBay is just about the only source.  The last one I saw went for ~$90 because it had 2 of them on it.

Nifty, yes.  Worth the price of admission for what they do?  Not if you are talking about Atari cones switches.

Just my opinion

RandyT

[SirPoonga]

I had a ColecoVision hacked into a home-built arcade cabinet with 2 real WICO leaf joysticks and leaf pushbuttons before there was even an Internet for you to log into.

That doesn't mean you were in THIS community then.  You don't know my past either...
My point was you make it sound like I don't know what I am talking about.  I do.  I talk with the people around here regularly.  i know you do to which makes me wonder why your opinion varies so much.

Who chats regularly with the people of this community in the chat room?

Every time I drop in, there's almost nobody (but you) in there.  Either you are scaring them off, or this is more evidence of the niche market I spoke of.  The forums are a better way to find info with less bias anyway.

Heh, you have pretty biased info, so how is that "less"?
I hardly see you in the chat.  Most of the people chat in the evenings.

Who interacts with more people here?

I experience your "interaction" all the time.  Don't think I would miss it  (and I'm sure others will say the same of me )

My point was I have been in this community for a long time. and talk with many people regularly.  Even outside of the forum.

There's three types of gamers here, in general.  There's those who play the classics (anything before 1990 basically), those who play early-mid 90s games, and those who play the more modern games.
Most everyone in the classics section will want to replicate the blinking lights because most of the games in that era are atari.  it's that simple.

When you are ready to back this up with some numbers, be sure to post back.  By my count, the assertion you just made about pre-1990's games is bizarre at best.

Lest's see your count then?
if you hung around in this community you'd get that feeling.  If I can get HowardC in here he'd tell you the same thing.  I belong to the classics group, he belongs to the early-mid 90s.
This doesn;t mean that is the only game they play, just the majority.  I do play some neogeo and modern vertical fighters once and while.  But most of my gmaing is the classics like tempest, pacman, frogger, digdug, space duel, asteroids, etc...

While the LED start lights are a neat "doo-dad" they add nothing to the gameplay.  If you are placing that much emphasis on them, you've probably lost sight of what you built your cabinet for.  I hope you didn't spend $1000 to watch a button blink when you put a quarter in.

It does add to gameplay.  it lets you know if you have credits  and more than 1 if both players are blinking   But it isn't always about the gameplay, that was the point.
It's like if they comeout with identical PC lightguns, but one has recoil, which one do you think people will prefer?  While recoil doesn't add to gameplay it adds to the experience.

I am not putting emphasis on them.  I did not say a cabinet HAS to have them.  I am pointing out that your opinion that they don't enhance the arcade experience is wrong.
I supported my view with fact.  A large percentage of the pre 1990 games are atari.  Most of those have LEDs.  People seek the volcano buttons often around here.

I could turn your statement around right back on you with all the emphasis you put on not having them.

It's a difference in opinion.  However I htink since it is a keyboard encoder it could do the keyboard LEDs.  It will appeal more users to have the extra functionality. 

I didn't want to bring your products into this, I just wanted it a discussion about the ideas, but since you make a keyboard encoder...
Now your point of not having them on the keywiz because they take up inputs is moot.  Now that you have the stealth shift thing you still have more inputs than most people need.  So what stops you from adding the support?

We have opposite ideas.  That's the problem between us.  But as you see by other replies there are other people with simular opinions to me.  i hope you see that and take advantage of it.

But joyMonkey is right, we got off topic. i will stop at this.

[SirPoonga]

There can be some hefty costs associated with them, especially if you want those cone switches SirPoonga keeps referring to.  If you want to re-create that "experience", you'll have a tough time of it.

To you as the manufacturer or the user?  For the user it doesn't cost that much.

[RandyT]

There can be some hefty costs associated with them, especially if you want those cone switches SirPoonga keeps referring to.  If you want to re-create that "experience", you'll have a tough time of it.

To you as the manufacturer or the user?  For the user it doesn't cost that much.

No, to the user.  Read the post again and then tell me where you intend to find the much coveted Atari buttons.  Would you like me to post the ~$90 auction for an otherwise bare and beaten Centipede panel?

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

Now your point of not having them on the keywiz because they take up inputs is moot.  Now that you have the stealth shift thing you still have more inputs than most people need.  So what stops you from adding the support?

I don't think you fully understand the stealth-shift thing.  If you want to use all 32-inputs for gaming, then stealth-shift can be used for admin buttons.  You can't just decide to use 28 inputs and stealth-shift for an additional four action keys.

Maybe we need to get into this in the rebuttal thread.

[JoyMonkey]

The point that most games in Mame don't support the coveted blinky keyboard LEDs isn't really valid anymore, since AdvMame added keyboard LED script support you can easily add blinkyness^TM to every game in Mame (not authentic, but extremely blink-tastic!)

[dema]

As god is my witness, I would never take anything from Dave Fooly.

[rchadd]

Let Mame stop, it is finished anyway. Let someone else emulate the newer titles sometime in the future (and they will, they always do). Nesticle hasn't been updated in like 8 years, but my copy still works.

So true...

agree - how many more games are there to be added to mame anyway?

i've got all the ones i want.