Is Foley really the devil..?? (Previously: RetroBlast is a traitor..??)

[HoopstarsGarage]

Just read the latest entry on RetroBlast where he has pimped himself off to Foley and is going to review his product and all but backs him and his stand on MAME...

This makes me sick and I for one will NEVER read another article published on RetroBlast - when you are <censored by saint, but it was reproductive in nature> the devil, you are just as evil..  Makes me wonder how much Foley has paid Kevin to turn to the dark side.

[saint]

I, for one, welcome our new MAME(tm) overlords!

(For the humor impaired, that is a joke)

[AlanS17]

Well the concept of paying for individual ROMs seems fair enough. Depends on how much they're asking for, though. It's hard to pay $50 for a ROM.

And what would that do to those people who have game boards for the ROMs they use?

[M3talhead]

Just read the latest entry on RetroBlast where he has pimped himself off to Foley and is going to review his product and all but backs him and his stand on MAME...

This makes me sick and I for one will NEVER read another article published on RetroBlast - when you are <censored by saint, but it was reproductive in nature> the devil, you are just as evil..  Makes me wonder how much Foley has paid Kevin to turn to the dark side.

Did you ever consider the possibility that he is reviewing the Ultracrap machines because nobody else has? I commend him for keeping an open mind in reviewing arcade products. Its just as good to know what products are crap and what's worth looking into. In addition, by reviewing Ultracrap units, we can further laugh at the ridiculous amounts of money this guy is charging for his rigs.

 I really don't think anyone here likes Mr. Foley or the skidmark he rubbed on the MAME scene, but what it really boils down to is the law. Now don't get me wrong, I was one of the biggest proponents of Foley's plan, but whats right is right, and whether you agree with it or not, copyrights are copyrights. If you have Roms you didn't pay for on your machine (which should amount to just about everyone who's ever read these forums) guess what, you've broken the law.

Now, while the FBI might not be rapping on your door, Kevin is right about one thing. With so many publishers releasing "nostalgic" packs for PC and console systems, this community is going to receive a lot more attention from the media and IP lawyers.

As for Kevin backing Foley, if you read more than the first sentence on the main page, you'd realize that he's kept his stance on the trademark fight this whole time. What he's doing is saying what everyone is thinking: That the time has come to deal with that "800 lb gorilla" known as pirated Roms.

[quarterback]

I, for one, welcome our new MAME(tm) overlords!

In Russia, MAME(tm) welcomes *you*

[Prizmdrop]

Sorry kev, but I have to disagree with this. It

[shadowdrak]

I don't really see the problem here.

[monkeybomb]

I don't think Kevin is getting a thing from foley!!!!!!!!!


I do disagree with the idea of foley somehow being good for us.  We do need leagal ROMS for this to coninue, but foley is and will never be an answer.  He is the worst kind of scumbag buisness man without a care in the world but his own wallet.  I don't think having this guy handle something as important as the leagalization of ROMS is going to be good for any of us.  I would love to see iroms come out, just with a different guy in charge.

[Zakk]

I don't like the direction this is going at all.

[Q*Bert_OP]

Well the concept of paying for individual ROMs seems fair enough. Depends on how much they're asking for, though. It's hard to pay $50 for a ROM.

And what would that do to those people who have game boards for the ROMs they use?

It's not $50 per game it's like $350 for frogger, $525 for Pac Man, Ect.

[shadowdrak]

All I am saying is that we should wait before we pass judgement.  I doubt he is getting any money out of this, so i don't know if "sold out" would be the proper way to put it.  We don't have all the information here, and free products to review are a lot different than kickbacks.  Things have a way of becoming crystal-clear if you give them enough time.  So all i propose is, we give Kevin some slack until we can discern his motives.  Give peace a chance people.

[Fat_Trucker]

All ground thats been covered before but I think RetroBlasts statement is misleading.

If David Foley and Ultracade had simply tried to TM mame to make a statement and kickstart his campaign to drive pirates and software theft into the light then I don't think anyone would argue.

However, at the time he filed for the trademark he then contacted anyone and everyone using anything mame related demanding royalties. I fail to see how demanding a royalty from an artwork vendor for example, stating that he owned the trademark to mame was anything to do with combating illegal roms, it was a purely opportunistic grab for the cash.

i-roms or something similar is a fantastic idea, however I remain sceptical judging from the ridiculous prices Ultracade charge for their current products that i-roms will represent anything resembling value for money.

I will be reserving my judgment until we see how things pan out, but it seems a little risky on Retroblasts part to so actively endorse David Foley's actions and his upcoming i-roms service. Considering the mans recent behaviour, he is not someone I would put my confidence in so quickly and openly.

[Tahnok]

I, for one, welcome our new MAME(tm) overlords!

In Russia, MAME(tm) welcomes *you*

Or

In Soviet Russia, Ultracade plays you!

Or

Ultracade, the arcade cab that watches back.

[darktemp]

"To error is human, but to forgive, well that's right on!" -Vince Vaughn

Well I'm not right on because I still don't forgive Roley Foley and I can't believe Retroblast would review his products.  If nothing else the review is going to help advertise his products. 

I hope the free stuff is worth it.

[jelwell]

I'm just surprised it took people this long to realize that Foley was generally right. Someone needed to enforce MAME's license (now a trademark as well) and since MAMEdevs never did Foley stepped up to the plate. People weren't happy with it then and they're not happy with MAMEdevs' enforcement, now, either.
Joseph Elwell.

[Zakk]

Foley had nothing to do with it, from point A to point B.

[M3talhead]

Foley had nothing to do with it, from point A to point B.  I think it's been established that he tried (unsuccessfully) to profit from the term MAME(tm).  Asking for royalties to 'allow' people to continue using the mame name? pffft. Please.  He didn't step up to any plate, he snuck up and tried to steal it.  Don't make him sound like a noble figurehead, since there's a very good chance he's a weasel.

I'm by no means calling him the good guy in the fight. He's a snake. Plain and simple. Profiting from someone else's hard work and true love is really a sh!tty thing, but in the eyes of the law, he would have come out the victor, and in so we must understand a few things:

1. Obtaining arcade (or any other) roms without paying for them is illegal (we all know that).

2. Foley is a shady guy and will always look to what's "profitable" for him.

3.By Kevin reviewing this product, we may better understand what this hobby is up against in the future.

Lets not look at Foley as a person who we should follow as an example. Rather, lets see what kind of people are ready to wreck this already fading industry. As for Kev, everyone needs to understand that he is an arcade enthusiast like us all, and he happens to run a (rather successful) arcade review site. By him analyzing Ultracraps product, we can better understand the direction this hobby will take us all.

Please keep in mind people, although we all hate Foley, Kev's decision to review "the enemy's" product may have a positive outcome in the end.









*Note: I hate David Foley

[sirwoogie]

As Kevin is a regular visitor to these forums, I'm sure he'll be responding to this particular thread and answer everybody's concern.

Kev is a good, stand-up kind of guy. He's contributed plenty to the MAME, arcade, and pinball communities with his reviews and commentaries. Dismissing him as a "sell-out" is not warrented.

Let's hear his point of view before going off the deep end with innuendo and speculation.

[Zakk]

I'm by no means calling him the good guy in the fight. He's a snake. Plain and simple. Profiting from someone else's hard work and true love is really a sh!tty thing, but in the eyes of the law, he would have come out the victor, and in so we must understand a few things:

1. Obtaining arcade (or any other) roms without paying for them is illegal (we all know that).

2. Foley is a shady guy and will always look to what's "profitable" for him.

3.By Kevin reviewing this product, we may better understand what this hobby is up against in the future.

Lets not look at Foley as a person who we should follow as an example. Rather, lets see what kind of people are ready to wreck this already fading industry. As for Kev, everyone needs to understand that he is an arcade enthusiast like us all, and he happens to run a (rather successful) arcade review site. By him analyzing Ultracraps product, we can better understand the direction this hobby will take us all.

Please keep in mind people, although we all hate Foley, Kev's decision to review "the enemy's" product may have a positive outcome in the end.









*Note: I hate David Foley

Heh, my comment was directed at jelwel.

SirWoogie: You're probably right, and I agree Kevin will likely calm all our fears, and overwhelmingly it seems like everyone is expressing surprise by 'how it looks', not condemnation.  We like Kevin, but dislike Foley.  Put one with the other, and the cosmos gets all out of whack. 

And who can settle for an out-of-whack cosmos, I ask you?!?!?

[Tommy Boy]

I'm just surprised it took people this long to realize that Foley was generally right. Someone needed to enforce MAME's license (now a trademark as well) and since MAMEdevs never did Foley stepped up to the plate.

I have absolutely no idea what this MEANS.  Look.  This is very simple.  Foley paid the folks that owned the rights to these games a pile of royalties (apparently) for licenses.  But guess what, the people he paid the money to are not enforcing their copyrights.  That makes him feel pretty stupid.  He's essentially paid for nothing, since the licenses aren't worth much if everyone is getting it for free.

So Foley is mad.  But his beef is with the copyright owners and, frankly, they're the only ones who can ultimately make his business model work.  Before he paid that pile of money, he should have put a clause in the contract that either forces the copyright owners to enforce their rights or gives him the authority to do so on their behalf.

Sit down and think about the whole MAME(tm) fiasco that he started.  How was that *ever* going to do him any good?  Does pulling cabinets and marquee auctions off of ebay do anything to make his licenses worth more?  No.  Pirating of the ROMS is the issue.  And taking over the MAME trademark (even if it would have stood up through the USPTO process) was NEVER GOING TO STOP PIRACY OF THE ROMS.  Period.  Pulling auctions is an annoyance to the folks distributing cabs and marquees.  That's it.

Here's the bottom line and what pi$$e$ me off so much with Foley: He's a lousy business man who will never do us a bit of good in this hobby and ultimately will only manage to pi$$ one more business (his third?) down the crapper.  So I disagree with you Kevin.  Someone who knew what they were doing might make legal roms work for the MAME community, but this guy has no clue what he's doing.

Here's one last thought: How is the iRoms idea any better of a money maker for him if he doesn't get the copyrights owners to enforce their rights.  Will the copyrights owners incur the cost of litigation to enforce their rights without a revenue stream from iRoms sufficient to pay the legal bills plus a profit?  I don't know the answer to this last question but I have my own theory...

[Magnet_Eye]

Did you ever consider the possibility that he is reviewing the Ultracrap machines because nobody else has? I commend him for keeping an open mind in reviewing arcade products. Its just as good to know what products are crap and what's worth looking into. In addition, by reviewing Ultracrap units, we can further laugh at the ridiculous amounts of money this guy is charging for his rigs.

My $.02:

The problem is that retroblast should not review this guys product because of the slime he is. The MAME Community has basically boycotted ultracade, as people in our country do when they are upset by a company's business practices. By reviewing ultracade, he is in essence getting in bed the enemy. If Kev really is a part of the MAME community, he would join the boycott against ultracade along with the community and refuse to do anything that may help ultracade succeed.

[darktemp]

My $.02:

The problem is that retroblast should not review this guys product because of the slime he is. The MAME Community has basically boycotted ultracade, as people in our country do when they are upset by a company's business practices. By reviewing ultracade, he is in essence getting in bed the enemy. If Kev really is a part of the MAME community, he would join the boycott against ultracade along with the community and refuse to do anything that may help ultracade succeed.

Bingo

[HoopstarsGarage]

My $.02:

The problem is that retroblast should not review this guys product because of the slime he is. The MAME Community has basically boycotted ultracade, as people in our country do when they are upset by a company's business practices. By reviewing ultracade, he is in essence getting in bed the enemy. If Kev really is a part of the MAME community, he would join the boycott against ultracade along with the community and refuse to do anything that may help ultracade succeed.

Further to which..

If Kevin comes out and backs ANYTHING about the cabinet, you can be assured that Foley will quote the article in his Ebay auctions and on his website and it will be positive for the slim ball..

If Kevin comes out and says UltraCade is a pile of over priced pooh, then it confirms what we already know, but Foley still gets his free plug from what once was a respected website for this hobby (RetroBlast in case you missed it)..

If Kevin DOES decide to chime in here, then I would be very interested to find out exactly what he is getting from Ultracade - money, one of his crappy cabinets or something else (a buy in to the company)..?

Either way, Kevin is supporting him..

There is an old saying: "IF you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem".

[saint]

There's a saying about mountains and molehills as well.  I'm often surprised at some of the reactions and sense of perspective people in this hobby can have . . .  Even if Kevin has made a poor decision (and I'll personally refrain from making a judgement on that one way or the other), to villify someone who has done as much giving to this community as Kevin has is just sad.

--- saint

[HoopstarsGarage]

I'm often surprised at some of the reactions and sense of perspective people in this hobby can have . . .

I guess that highlights the passion and strong sense of "community" that MAME has grown to build since it's inception and the strong feelings of resentment that one man can have on that community..

Truly sad times indeed..

[Shadowgate]

There's a saying about mountains and molehills as well.

[sirwoogie]

I'm thinking this community in the thread is resembling salem, Mass. about 300 years ago. Lets here the other side of the story first.

[Crazy Cooter]

I'm just surprised it took people this long to realize that Foley was generally right. Someone needed to enforce MAME's license (now a trademark as well) and since MAMEdevs never did Foley stepped up to the plate. People weren't happy with it then and they're not happy with MAMEdevs' enforcement, now, either.
Joseph Elwell.

Foley had no intentions of being a "standup guy" and enforce anything.  Foley went on this rage after Namco busted him for illegally selling their ROM's.  Period.  Ask Namco.

[Xiaou2]

 This thread  represents childishness.

  First off, I agree that Foley is a slimy weasel.   But, at least he backed off
mame.  And  now mame may be a bit better for it.

  One thing that I suggested to Foley in a email long ago, was that instead of trying to attack mame'rs, and mame cab builders.. rather offer them parts and electronics that we could all use to build our own.   

  At that time, he said something like 'he wasnt into the parts game'.   Maybe he has realized the possibilities.. and had a change of mind.

  Either way, --I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules-- or not... if someone has a piece of hardware that can do what I need and or want it to do... I will buy it.

 It looks like he has very good experience with the electronics side of things.. and has the capital and expertise to pop the stuff out. 

  Id love to get a review on the video converter personally.  Sounds interesting.  Wondering about how good the quality of the conversion is.

 Anyway.. get over it already, and be more grown up than he was and or still is.

 As for attacking Kevin,  well..we all know his reviews are a bit on the shallow and buttkissing side.   You cant expect much more though.. as exposing hurtfull info to a product will not  get more vendors to send him new toys.  Sad but true.   Like it or not, hes better than nothing at all.   Attacking him is as childish as this entire thread and subject.

 
 

   

[Crazy Cooter]

First off, I agree that Foley is a slimy weasel....
It looks like he has very good experience with the electronics side of things.. and has the capital and expertise to pop the stuff out.

[divemaster127]

hey, i really like kevin too, but I think he has made a bad decision to even review foleys products, & kevin should withdraw that decision, I for one will not visit kevins site again until he withdraws supporting foley who will never do anything good for mame all he is concerned about is $$$$
thanks

[Patent Doc]

This whole thread just makes me sad.  I agree with most that Mr. foley is pure evil and will try to milk the retro arcade business dry to line his pockets.  I honestly feel he care nothing for this hobby.  However, why should he.  His target business are those people with a lot of money who want to be able to brag they got the latest toy.  Part of the joy of this hobby is planning the cabinet, building the cabinet, designing artwork, etc...it's not all about the games (admitedly though that's how most of us got into it).  Nevertheless, it is not Kevin that makes me sad.  It's this board.  I would like to tink that if I met Kevin in person, we would be friends.  Speaking for myself, his website really helped me understnad things in this hobby early on.  Kevin is a good guy and as Saint pointed out, we shouldn't villify him just because we disagree with his latest choice of items to review.  Having spoken to Kevin several times about legal/illegal roms/Foley, I know Kevin doesn't like what Foley has done to this hobby.  However, Kevin is right, the legality of roms looms over this hobby like a huge dark cloud and like it or not, Foley is providing legal roms with his games.  Sure Foley should be going after MAME for the roms, but he hasn't yet.  On the other hand, I can uderstand him wanting to get rid of competition that doesn't have to jump through the same whoops he does (unfair competition, etc).  Do I like Foley, no.  Do I wish there was a definitely legal source of roms to use with mame...yes.  Should we be trashing Kevin...absolutely NOT.

Patent Doc

[divemaster127]

I was not trashing kevin, I like kevin as i stated before, its just in my opinion, he has made a poor decision supporting anything from foley, who if we remember started this whole mess, i just will not visit or support kevins site while he supports foley products, i would leave the hobby before i purchase anything from ultracade

[divemaster127]

Something else i would like to point out, companies like stikstik etc, pay to advertise on kevins site, if i owned one of these companies I might have a problem with kevin supporting foleys products, considering foley is trying to run these very companies out of business

[dema]

"Right now, it seems that the best hope of additional legal ROMs is UltraCade

[darktemp]

This whole thread just makes me sad.
Patent Doc

Uhm..  This thread makes you sad?  Honestly I didn't think anything in this discussion was that "heavy" but... whatever I guess.  As to everyone waiting for a response from Kevin, check the front page of Retroblast.  It contains a rather long winded article on this very topic.

Also, I don't think anyone is trying to take away any of Kevin's contributions, we are discussing this one particular issue of reviewing this jerks stuff.  Maybe this topic will have some bearing on the decision to review said junk.

[NinjaEpisode]

There's a saying about mountains and molehills as well.

[saint]

Hopefully just this thread and not the whole board?

Nevertheless, it is not Kevin that makes me sad.  It's this board. 

[Ghoward]

I think you guys are being a bit hard on Kevin. Let

[Patent Doc]

Hopefully just this thread and not the whole board?

Correct, it is this thread and not the board...I misspoke...sorry.  I just hate seeing us attack one of our own.  Kevin's a good guy...I may not agree with the ultracade review, or giving Foley any extra attention, but I still like Kevin and his sight.

Patent Doc

[Timstuff]

I feel right now the same way I did when Anakin joined Palpatine in Episode 3.

[nobody]

you are all over reacting far far too much. To me it seems like all Kevin is doing is trying to be impartial, if he wants to make retroblast into something that can be used as the resource for gaming reviews he cant be biased to one manufacturer.

[General Zod]

In reference to this entire thread

[Zakk]

this battle over the legalities of retrogaming stems soley from BYOAC, and those who decide to rake in huge profits from selling their custom cabs. !!

[Zakk]

However, I do suggest that the title of this thread be changed...it does sound mighty harsh.

[HoopstarsGarage]

However, I do suggest that the title of this thread be changed...it does sound mighty harsh.

Done - Now it is a question rather than a statement.. I apologise to those that thought this was an "attack" on Kevin..  Hopefully it will appease those that want to support someone who wants to support the person responsible who tried to take down MAME..

What do I mean...?  Imagine when Foley decides that Ultimarc or GGG are "unfair competition" and they are also taken down.

IMO, this is the beginning of the end..  and some of you want to put your head in the sand and ignore it.  Am I being too tough or over the top?  Time will tell, but I guarantee that things are not going to get any better for any of us..

[Crazy Cooter]

Its not like Ultracade is still trying to trademark Mame.

It's not like I'm still driving drunk... It's not like I'm still abducting kids... It's not like I'm still stealing that car...

The guy has done nothing but break laws and cause grief to this hobby.

[paigeoliver]

You know what, if Foley gave me a free Ultracade to review it, then I would take it, and review it. Period. I mean come on, anyone with any sense is going to accept a free $2000 product simply to review it.

Give me a free Ultracade and I will review the living stuff out of it.
Give me a free 1993 Ford Escort and I will review that as well.

I can give you my quick Ultracade review right now.

Overall it is a nice system, but the joysticks shipping with the kits and complete cabinets are absolute garbage, the company should consider installing higher quality joysticks. Oh, and the "custom" artwork on a lot of them is really terrible, specifically the "Arcade Legends" series, which is gaudier than any original cabinet I have ever seen.

[nobody]

You know what, if Foley gave me a free Ultracade to review it, then I would take it, and review it. Period. I mean come on, anyone with any sense is going to accept a free $2000 product simply to review it.

Give me a free Ultracade and I will review the living stuff out of it.
Give me a free 1993 Ford Escort and I will review that as well.

I can give you my quick Ultracade review right now.

Overall it is a nice system, but the joysticks shipping with the kits and complete cabinets are absolute garbage, the company should consider installing higher quality joysticks. Oh, and the "custom" artwork on a lot of them is really terrible, specifically the "Arcade Legends" series, which is gaudier than any original cabinet I have ever seen.

youve done it now, there goes your free ultracade. reviewed it without a financial incentive

[M3talhead]

"In Kevin we trust...."

[DarkKobold]

What really irks me about this thing is justifying what Foley did.

It's not like he applied for the trademark, waited for it to be confirmed, and then only went after auctions with pirated Roms. Nope.

He, with only an application, mailed anyone using the MAME name, and began to shut down auctions, and extort money. Look at the case of Emdkay. He asked for money for the use of the MAME logo, and as soon as someone chimmed in that it was illegal, the bird switched his tune.

To justify anything that man does is to minimize the evils that he has tried to commit. Foley is by no means someone who should be dealt with. Instead of reviewing his products, an upstanding and important member of the community should support ALL MEMBERS of the community. Foley is not a member of the community. He has attacked it, and it's members. 

An example of Foley's lying and extortion.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,32730.msg276462.html#msg276462

That post makes me sick.

[edit for post and emdkay]

[KevSteele]

Wow, I go "offline" for a weekend to recharge, and something like this happens!

[pointdablame]

Paige is the only one in this whole thread who hit the nail on the head.

No one on this page who is even REMOTELY interested in arcade controls/games would turn down a free Ultracade machine to review.  Yeah, boast about your morals all you want, but if I showed up at your door with a free machine to review with and do with as you please, I think everyone would ask me if I wanted some coffee or some help getting it in the door.

Give Kevin a break... "in bed with the enemy"?!?!?!  GOd, calm down.  He's doing a review.  It'll be an overly positive review like everything else on RetroBlast, and Kevin will have had some fun reviewing the product.  End of story.  I would do the same thing.  If you don't like it, you don't have to read it.  That doesn't negate everything that Kevin has done for the community in the past.

And I'm sure my post will be followed with tons of "I wouldn't review it" posts, but frankly.. I don't believe you

[KevSteele]

Heck, just to clarify: I am not getting an UltraCade to review. Heck, I'm not getting anything at all - I just agreed to consider reviewing products from UltraCade, primairly their encoder/video adapters.

As for the overly-positive reviews: yes, I get enthusastic. But have you considered the fact that I may have actually liked most the products I've reviewed? I realize that you may not agree with my reviews, but I've never claimed to be anything other than an arcade enthusiast sharing my opinions.

With any review you need to understand a bit about the reviewer, then filter the review through what you know about them.

Kevin

[Zakk]

And I'm sure my post will be followed with tons of "I wouldn't review it" posts, but frankly.. I don't believe you

As god is my witness, I would never take anything from Dave Fooly.

[Tommy Boy]

I disagree with the general doom and gloom that I've been reading lately re the MAME community getting squashed by corporates.  I work in business development for a top-5 (US) financial services company.  Part of my job is to maximize revenues from our intellectual property portfolio, which includes licensing deals and finding competitive products that infringe our IP.  I'm not a lawyer but I am the lead business guy on the team and I understand well how the business strategy works in this space.

The fact that none of the heavyweights, such as Namco, have bothered to send cease and desist notices to MAMEdev lo these many years (8.5 years?) speaks volumes to me.  Further, when Foley confered with his lawyer and made his move to do something, did he go after the free ROM distribution mechanisms?  No, because he can't.  Only the copyright owners can shut down the ROM pirating.  And you better believe that Foley has been chirping in their ears to do something about it (in light of the fact that he's paid them a pile of money for licenses.)

Why won't Namco et al go after the ROMz sources with a legal vengeance?  My theory is that they can't make a business case work for it.  Lawyers are DAMN expensive.  Everyone reading these words who wants a full MAME rom set probably already owns one.  The genie is out of the bottle on that one.

So if the heavyweights decide to burn a few million and start the legal saber rattling, how many new sales opportunities will that create for them?  Where's the revenue?  Yes, they might sell a few thousand units to honest people who want to be legit.  But really, with all of the free roms out there, how many units are they going to sell?  I doubt the potential demand is worth the effort and expense of pursuing the pirates -- or else they'd be doing it.

Foley is the proof of the theory.  He's a nickel-and-dimer who got pinched by paying for licenses that the rights owners won't enforce.  And where is iRoms?  According to Kevin, Foley has grown silent on that issue.  Could it be because even slow Foley has realized that you can't make money as a middle man in that space if the copyright owners continue to look the other way on piracy?  In any event, it seems like Foley's efforts are now being directed towards the hardware business...that should tell us something.

In any event, I could be wrong.  Aaron and company could get hit with a handful of desist orders tomorrow.  But I doubt it...

[Kremmit]

Kev-

You officially have my approval to review any product from any manufacturer on your site.



Of course, since it's YOUR site, you probably don't NEED approval from me or any of these weenies that are ragging on you.   

[MonitorGuru]

I think Kev summed it up best.

Nearly everyone running MAME has ILLEGAL roms.

If you're not 100% legal and clean, then you have no right to complain about anything that is happening regarding the legalities behind Mame. (And this statement does NOT provide support to Foley's actions, but DOES support MameDev's actions)

The corner has been turned, and I believe Mame, in it's present form, will be drastically different soon. Be it from MameDev stopping work/changing work, Namco/Nintendo/Sammy/Atari suing the pants off of MameDev/eBay/web sites, or something else. But it WILL change and has already started.

[dweebs0r]

Ok, I withdraw my comments about Kevin being a sell out.

I guess I over reacted a bit.

I'm deleting my previous posts.

I do, however, still blame Foley for potentially causing a snowball effect that could easily cause Mame to be more trouble than its worth to the MameDevs.

God, I hope not...

-Dweebs

[DarkKobold]

I asked him about the MAME trademark move, the demand for royalties from marquee printers, and more. He never adequately answered my questions about the infringement of the MAME logo, but I can see at least where his grab for the MAME phrase could be considered legal (not ethical, but perhaps legal), since it was not being used commercially.

Unethical, and borderline legal, since any art created is auto-copyrighted.  Disgusting! 

I asked him about the demands of royalties: he explained that his requests for royalties were for the use of the characters and artwork that he has obtained an exclusive license for (at the cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars). Seemed fair enough.

But the MAME art was what he was seeking royalties. It is the job of the art owners, not Foley, to go after infringers.  He never said once to Emdkay that he was trying to collect royalties on things that he was paying royalties on. Infact, just because HE licensed them, doesn't mean he is allowed to collect royalties. The only royalties are paid to the original owners.

I also stand by what I said in my editorial: MAME has gotten too popular to survive as it is now, and we are going to have to adapt or be sued out of existence. It doesn't even matter who is right and who is wrong: no one involved in the project can survive a corporate lawsuit of any kind (none of the companies or MAMEdevs are rolling in cash, I'm certain).

This just isn't true. Look at Bleem! for example. Sony sued them, and lost.  Precedent means a lot in the justice system. Second of all, MAME is done to some degree. The source is out there; the damage is done. New updates make minor improvements to the old favourites here and there. However, the majority of updates are for obsecure titles.  Nothing will destroy the MAME that is here and now. Illegal roms are readily available. Its so simple, a child can do it, and lets face it, does on a normal basis. That distribution system isn't going anywhere.

Finally, there isn't a single ounce of information on BYOAC to lead people to find illegal roms. And as long as Saint keeps us on the right side of the law, we are protected.

I've asked him about the status of his announced i-ROMs service, but David Foley's continued silence about it is also a red flag for me. I want legal ROMs to be available - it's the only way MAME will appear legitimate in the eyes of the industry and the only way we can avoid further legal entaglements.

Corporations are not warm and fuzzy entities... If they decide to go after mame, they will. They won't care much for the legitimate ways to get roms. Remember when they went after the designer of MP3s because napster made it possible to easily pirate? They didn't care about the few legal services that existed at the time.

Anyway, I hope this helps explain my position. I realize not everyone will agree, and that's fine. Just don't go chalking my position up to some sort of greasy sellout...

I hope you realize that I don't consider you a sellout, I just feel that Foley was trying to pull another fast one on you. It seemed that he succeeded with his brand of circular logic.  I'd rather you not support him, as a review, good or bad, is free advertisement for a product.

[Timstuff]

I think that if the copyright owners of ROMs ever do take notice to MAME then it will be similar to what happened with the MP3 sharing craze. Napster was really popular and many people used it, but when legal problems showed up they were eventually able to come back as a legitimate pay-per-download service and has reached an even broader audience. I do know that the days of free roms are probably numbered, but that doesn't mean all bad things. One day we may well have a service similar to I-Tunes or the current Napster where ROMs from all our popular arcade games are avalible to download for about a buck to two bucks a piece, like how Star Roms is going. Game publishers are noticing that it's not just commercially avalible PC ports, but the raw ROMs themselves that are generating alot of demand.

Foley may be a big fat jerk, but in terms of legality he's 100% legit. Most people who run MAME are roughly 25% legit, but more often than not less than 1%. It's only logical that as MAME becomes more popular eventually we're gonna have to start paying money for it. That's just plain how free stuff always works. It can be free in the short run, but eventually someone's gonna have to pay for it, and usually it's the people who use it.

[CheffoJeffo]

I also stand by what I said in my editorial: MAME has gotten too popular to survive as it is now, and we are going to have to adapt or be sued out of existence. It doesn't even matter who is right and who is wrong: no one involved in the project can survive a corporate lawsuit of any kind (none of the companies or MAMEdevs are rolling in cash, I'm certain).

This just isn't true. Look at Bleem! for example. Sony sued them, and lost.  Precedent means a lot in the justice system.

Can the next person who chooses to cites Bleem! vs Sony PLEASE remember that Sony did NOT lose  ... they did not win the majority of the legal cases, but Bleem! is gone.

Sony got exactly what they wanted -- they won and it didn't cost them all that much.

Can we stop pointing to these cases (there were, after all, more than one) as a reason not to worry about MAME, because it is the perfect example of what can happen.

Cheers.

[Tommy Boy]

As long as we're at it, can we also stop using analogies to the music industry while discussing this issue.  The retrogaming roms market is not even 1/1000th the size of the music business.  The economics are entirely different.

It means that the business and legal models that worked for music do not necessarily hold for this market. There isn't enough market potential to pay for the litigation and jockeying that we've seen in music distribution over the past 5 years or so.

[Tommy Boy]

One more point:  Kevin had a news item on his site last week saying that Nintendo was GIVING AWAY its retro titles with its console emulation package for the new Revolution box.

What does that tell you about Nintendo's estimation of the retrogaming opportunity?  It's a freebie toss-in.  Nintendo will likely not be pursuing vigorous litigation for infringement of its retro titles.

Guys, if the heavyweights were interested in this market, we would already have an iRoms-like service (or more than one!).  And the piracy would have been cleaned up by them years ago.

[KevSteele]

Can the next person who chooses to cites Bleem! vs Sony PLEASE remember that Sony did NOT lose

[AlanS17]

I hope the Ultracade does get reviewed. That way the front-end can be reverse-engineered.

[CheffoJeffo]

That's kind of my point - all it takes is one lawsuit. Are the MAMEdevs a corporation? Do they have a nice, comfy "legal slush fund"? Can they just put the "company" in bankruptcy protection should a lawsuit come after them and their personal assets?

No. And if there is a lawsuit, MAME stops.

I agree entirely ... and would welcome a legal ROM licensing arrangement (I won't be happy if it benefits Mr Foley, but there is the greater good to consider).

Further, there is an issue that folks seem to be missing ... since these companies are already licensing the ROMs out to people like Mr. Foley, they may have an obligation to protect the value of that license (either on their own accord, or at the insistence of their licensees), even if only through a small lawsuit.

That would be enough to do it ... it is simple utility theory ... you would have to be crazy to try and mount a legal defense on behalf of something that you do as a hobby, for no money and which has been the cause of so much aggravation.

Cheers.

[paigeoliver]

Let Mame stop, it is finished anyway. Let someone else emulate the newer titles sometime in the future (and they will, they always do). Nesticle hasn't been updated in like 8 years, but my copy still works.

[GGKoul]

Let Mame stop, it is finished anyway. Let someone else emulate the newer titles sometime in the future (and they will, they always do). Nesticle hasn't been updated in like 8 years, but my copy still works.

So true...

[IntruderAlert]

By the way Kev,
Do you plan to ever do a review of the GP-Wiz49 ?
and possibly revise your KEYWIZ MAX 1.5 review?
I believe Tiger-Heli posted this for you some time ago:
http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/rebuttal.htm

[SOAPboy]

Um.. id gladly review one of his machines.. if the guy is willing to send me a FREE MACHINE/PARTS/GAMES , ill gladly write a review all about it for whatever site wanted it..

Why?

Its free stuff first off..

Secondly, even if the guy is a ---tallywhacker---, the product might be great, or might be total crap..

Lastly, you got to look at this with less bias, ok, hes a --missioncontrol--, but that dont mean his product isnt worth looking at.. Sure its expensive, sure hes the devil, but a free machine/parts/ect, for a few hours of your time, to me, is worth it a 100%..

[pointdablame]

Heck, just to clarify: I am not getting an UltraCade to review. Heck, I'm not getting anything at all - I just agreed to consider reviewing products from UltraCade, primairly their encoder/video adapters.

As for the overly-positive reviews: yes, I get enthusastic. But have you considered the fact that I may have actually liked most the products I've reviewed? I realize that you may not agree with my reviews, but I've never claimed to be anything other than an arcade enthusiast sharing my opinions.

With any review you need to understand a bit about the reviewer, then filter the review through what you know about them.

Kevin

Not that you were pointing me at (at least i don't think you were ) but I wasn't knocking you for being overly positive.. just stating it.  I could care less, and in fact... I hope you DO enjoy everything you review.

I love getting things that I enjoy, so even if you are getting these simply to review... all the more to ya if you can get some enjoyment out of it.

I just think people totally overreacted to the fact that you MIGHT sometime in the future POSSIBLY review some product from Ultracade.  Shoot, if he sends you a bunch of stuff and you can't review it, send it my way.. I"ll be glad to review it for ya LOL.  Playing with new stuff is fun no matter where it comes from in my book.

[DarkKobold]

Can the next person who chooses to cites Bleem! vs Sony PLEASE remember that Sony did NOT lose  ... they did not win the majority of the legal cases, but Bleem! is gone.

Sony got exactly what they wanted -- they won and it didn't cost them all that much.

Can we stop pointing to these cases (there were, after all, more than one) as a reason not to worry about MAME, because it is the perfect example of what can happen.

Cheers.

Ok, hell no.  Sony lost in the courts. Sony won, by threating to not allow retailers selling Bleem! to sell PS2, right before it came out.

Damn. Know your facts.

[Xphile]

I, for one, welcome our new MAME(tm) overlords!

In Russia, MAME(tm) welcomes *you*

lol, that sounds so familiar, but I can't place it...I picture it coming from the four eyed alien evil genius on "lilo and stich', but that's not it, is it?

[Voodooray]

When you are sat at home tonite in front of the TV, have a think about what you know of the guy who's company made it. He maybe a total jerk but you don't care because it's a good TV.
Now this may be a bit simplistic but you see the point i am trying to make.
People talk about principles, but refuse to review something because you don't like the guy and your review credibility is gone in an instant. Reviews must be impartial, othrwise why bother? And a hard fact of life is that at some time you will review something that will leave a nasty taste in your mouth.
As other people have mentioned, it seems strange people taking the moral high ground when they are using illegal roms. Please don't take this as backing for Mr Foley, i really dislike the guy, but a valid point doesn't become less valid because you don't like the person making it.

Just my two peneth, not an attack on anybody.

[Voodooray]

Quote from: quarterback on June 11, 2005, 07:34:55 PM
Quote from: saint on June 11, 2005, 06:38:18 PM
I, for one, welcome our new MAME(tm) overlords!

In Russia, MAME(tm) welcomes *you*


lol, that sounds so familiar, but I can't place it...I picture it coming from the four eyed alien evil genius on "lilo and stich', but that's not it, is it?

I don't know if it came from there origionally but both quotes are from the Simpsons.

The first from where Homer goes into space and the second, where they go to Branson.
not that i'm in any way Simpsons obsessed you understand.

Voodoo Ray.

[Tiger-Heli]

As for the overly-positive reviews: yes, I get enthusastic. But have you considered the fact that I may have actually liked most the products I've reviewed? I realize that you may not agree with my reviews, but I've never claimed to be anything other than an arcade enthusiast sharing my opinions.

With any review you need to understand a bit about the reviewer, then filter the review through what you know about them.

As someone who's been critical of Kevin being overly positive in his reviews in the past, let me give some personal experience that may help some of you out.  Look at my comments in the TOKN testing thread. (especially if you have been following it.).

My initial comments were VERY negative, because I was expecting it to allow all 16 inputs to be used simultaneously.  Then I figured out that the unit COULD be used to do basically what it claim.  Those posts were more positive on the unit than they should be.  Later I backed away and looked at the big picture, and came away with something like "Yes, you COULD use this in a basic CP, but when would it be your first choice."

My point is that in reviewing hardware, you generally want it to perform well, or want to make it perform well, and sometimes that clouds your logic.

[KevSteele]

By the way Kev,
Do you plan to ever do a review of the GP-Wiz49 ?
and possibly revise your KEYWIZ MAX 1.5 review?
I believe Tiger-Heli posted this for you some time ago:
http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/rebuttal.htm

I'm making arrangements for someone else to do a review of the GP-Wiz49, since Randy wants nothing to do with me because of the KeyWiz Max review.

And no, I have no plans to revise my review of the KeyWiz Max. I just re-read it recently, and I stand by that review, Tiger-Heli's rebuttal or not (although I did fix the typos he pointed out  )

Kevin

[General Zod]

this battle over the legalities of retrogaming stems soley from BYOAC, and those who decide to rake in huge profits from selling their custom cabs. !! 

To act surprised or bitter against another gamer just because they've supposedly "made a deal with devil", is outright foolish. When the smoke clears, and the game is over, the only one's you'll be shouting devil to, are the greedy idiotic members who decided to profit from selling their MAME cabs.

Whaaa?  You are so far out in left field it's crazy.  You're blaming the entire fiasco on people who sell cabinets???  Pass around some of what you're smoking Zod.  To point the finger at BYOAC is absurd, this board is DESIGNED to teach people to build their own cabs, so that they don't have to pay say $4000 for a pile of wood and plastic.

The rest of this thread is more or less a discussion, this is plain old trolling.

WHOA !! Who the <censored> are you??? After glancing about your webpage, I can see why you made those comments towards me. You, like a handful of others, are only contributing to very problem that's being discussed here.

Schooltime, ol' Zakk goodbuddy!! A problem just doesn't arise, it builds gradually over time, then usually explodes right in your face. If you <censored> long enough to realize it's not only the $4000 cabs that ruined it, but also the $500-$2000 cabs from the so-called hobbyist of our community, you might actually hear a ring of truth from my original comments.

Blaming Foley, KevSteele, and or even the MAMEdevs at this point in the game is ridiculous. One has to look back to the beginning, the very reason we're talking about this right now.  My original post was only depicting the ROOT of the problem.

Passing the Foley's, and all other commercial co's, I seem to remember quite a few that started the ball rolling in the BST forum. Come on, you remember it too...." How much do you think I can get for said MAMEcab? "

Come on ZAKK, you've been here a while just like me, remember those posts? Who'da thunk they'd eventually ruin it for the lot of us ? 

Go put that in your <censored> BLOG , will ya !!! 

Censored by saint. Three times in one message. This is the road to being banned - chill out and watch your language.

[Tiger-Heli]

Sit down and think about the whole MAME(tm) fiasco that he started.  How was that *ever* going to do him any good?  Does pulling cabinets and marquee auctions off of ebay do anything to make his licenses worth more?  No.

It doesn't make his licenses worth more, but it does make his cabinets sell better if they're still advertised and his competitors aren't.

Here's one last thought: How is the iRoms idea any better of a money maker for him if he doesn't get the copyrights owners to enforce their rights.  Will the copyrights owners incur the cost of litigation to enforce their rights without a revenue stream from iRoms sufficient to pay the legal bills plus a profit?  I don't know the answer to this last question but I have my own theory...

If the ROMS are $300 to $500 per game (as his current titles are) and if he actually SELLS any, that generates a pretty good revenue stream for litigation.

[SirPoonga]

By the way Kev,
Do you plan to ever do a review of the GP-Wiz49 ?
and possibly revise your KEYWIZ MAX 1.5 review?
I believe Tiger-Heli posted this for you some time ago:
http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/rebuttal.htm

How can RandyT stop you from revieing the wiz49?

Heh, I read the rebuttal.  It's obvious Tigerheli hasn't used an ipac.  he makes statements about what he thinks about the ipac that just aren;t true.

I should make a rebuttal of the rebuttal.

I for one find Kevin's review of the keywiz subjective.  It shows pros and cons.  While it doesn't show ALL the features and uses of the keywiz he also doesn't counter with all of the features and uses of the ipac.  Just with what he thinks is relevant.

Why does RandyT not like the review?  It isn't positive or negative. 

[Tiger-Heli]

How can RandyT stop you from revieing the wiz49?

He can't stop him, he just isn't going to provide one.  However, given the flap over the KeyWiz review, I think it's a good idea that someone else do the review for RetroBlast.

Heh, I read the rebuttal.  It's obvious Tigerheli hasn't used an ipac.  he makes statements about what he thinks about the ipac that just aren;t true.

Which statements?

I should make a rebuttal of the rebuttal.

As long as I can verify your comments, I'll fix the rebuttal.

Why does RandyT not like the review?  It isn't positive or negative. 

RandyT didn't like the fact that it got compared to the I-PAC when KevSteele said it would just be a review.  Also some nuances, like Kev saying that he preferred EEPROM to SDRAM, but not mentioning (or updating the review to mention) that the KeyWiz software has a "Virtual EEPROM" feature where it loads the last codeset on re-boot.  Stuff like that.

[Zakk]

WHOA !! Who the <censored> are you??? After glancing about your webpage, I can see why you made those comments towards me. You, like a handful of others, are only contributing to very problem that's being discussed here.

Schooltime, ol' Zakk goodbuddy!! A problem just doesn't arise, it builds gradually over time, then usually explodes right in your face. If you <censored> long enough to realize it's not only the $4000 cabs that ruined it, but also the $500-$2000 cabs from the so-called hobbyist of our community, you might actually hear a ring of truth from my original comments.

Blaming Foley, KevSteele, and or even the MAMEdevs at this point in the game is ridiculous. One has to look back to the beginning, the very reason we're talking about this right now.

[KevSteele]

For those of you that feel my reviews are too positive, I just finished a product review of something that I definitely feel is a piece of...erm...poop:

http://retroblast.com/misc/MG2005.html

 

Kevin

[Zakk]

For those of you that feel my reviews are too positive, I just finished a product review of something that I definitely feel is a piece of...erm...poop:

http://retroblast.com/misc/MG2005.html

 

Kevin

I can't tell, is that an ultracade product?





(ooooh I couldn't resist!!!!) 

[RandyT]

Gahhh!!!  I can't take it any more 

Listen folks, an arcade cab is nothing more than a PC in a fancy entertainment center, with a nice place to mount your joysticks and buttons so you don't have to hang onto them.  THAT'S IT!!

It has nothing to do with MAME, or illegal ROMS or Foley or Steele or anyone.

I've had either home-built control panels or full size cabinets for an Atari 2600, ColecoVision, Odyssey2, and Amiga computers long before MAME ever found it's way into everyone's psyche.

You can buy compilations of the classic games at any BestBuy, Target or Wal-Mart.

You can go out on the net and find TONS of great freeware/shareware games that will be fantastic on a home arcade machine, many that are much better than some of the 20 year old curiosities that were actually in the arcades.  Some of those oldies have even been updated by private individuals to take advantage of all of this neat new technology we have around us now.

Building control panels and home arcade cabinets does not revolve around MAME or any of these high-profile (to us; the rest of the world doesn't know they exist) players that would like you to think otherwise.

Here are some opinions, if anyone cares :

RetroBlast - You are watching a hobby transmogrify into a business.  You can't have utopian ideals and expect a business venture to succeed.  It doesn't get much simpler than that.

Foley - Ehh... whatever.  I think they are starting to take a "if you can't beat them, join them" approach, based on some of their recent offerings.  Ultracade is a relative newcomer to the home market.  They built their business and made their deals (from what I can see) on licensing that allows real arcade machine "operators" to collect cash for play.  If I went through all those hoops and saw people selling cabinets with fully functional coin doors and copyrighted images of game characters on the sides, ready for the local bar or laundromat, I'd probably be a little miffed too.

MAME - I love these guys for their determination and the whole "look what a pantload of talented people with unified goals can accomplish" thing.  Unfortunately, in the eyes of the sleazeballs that exist only to take advantage of their work, the project is far enough along that the developers have made themselves irrelevant.  I hope they keep doing what they do best and the ones who have no respect for their work leave them the heck alone.  I'm sick of seeing MAME(tm) compatible carriage bolts on eBay as well.

iROMS - As others have stated, if there were a real market, it would have long been tapped.  Think about it this way:  When the big companies can't keep a compilation of 10 or 15 of it's best classic arcade offerings out of the "Value Software" bin, what makes you think it will do so much better with a most likely higher priced service like this one?  This is not the music biz, where there are new titles coming out every day that people want to download.  There are no "new" 20 year old video games.  The business models aren't even close.

Perspective is what is required here.  This is, and in the greater scheme of things will likely remain, a niche market.  The market is currently overstated, as many newcomers to the "business" side can probably attest to (but they won't).  The best evidence is when the "big players" close up shop for a while when the "day job" gets too hectic.  A well-known company in a real market doesn't need a day job, nor would they want one (voice of experience from a past life )

Have fun with the hobby and take the politics as lightly as possible because  in reality, at least at this point in time, it's like ants killing each other for a sesame seed.

RandyT

[SirPoonga]

Heh, I read the rebuttal.  It's obvious Tigerheli hasn't used an ipac.  he makes statements about what he thinks about the ipac that just aren;t true.

Which statements?

Come in to chat, I will discuss with you.  Such as you don;t seem to understand the keyboard programming the ipac has.

Why does RandyT not like the review?  It isn't positive or negative. 

RandyT didn't like the fact that it got compared to the I-PAC when KevSteele said it would just be a review.  Also some nuances, like Kev saying that he preferred EEPROM to SDRAM, but not mentioning (or updating the review to mention) that the KeyWiz software has a "Virtual EEPROM" feature where it loads the last codeset on re-boot.  Stuff like that.

But you hav eto compare it in a review.  That's part of a review, to compare it to competitors so the reader can make up their mind of which one is best, assuming a non-bias review.

Something to discuss in chat, the EEPROM vs SDRAM is a big deal.  You need the software for the keywiz in order to use it then.  So if you use a linux boot cd you are screwed.

That and the keyboard LEDs are the two reason enough I think one shouldn't get the keywiz.  most people in this community are in this community to reproduce the arcade experience.  Having blinking start buttons that work as they are suppose it part of that experience.

The only thing bad about Kevin's review as I see it is he didn't cover all the possible uses for the features which is what most of your complaints are based on.  He covered the most common uses.  Like I said, he then didn't compare it to all the ipac features it doesn't have, just the common ones people use most often.

[SirPoonga]

Listen folks, an arcade cab is nothing more than a PC in a fancy entertainment center, with a nice place to mount your joysticks and buttons so you don't have to hang onto them.  THAT'S IT!!

WRONG!  It's about recreating the arcade experience.  Physically that is all it is.  But that's not why people make them.  They don't make them just to house a pc and hang joysticks on.

You can go out on the net and find TONS of great freeware/shareware games that will be fantastic on a home arcade machine, many that are much better than some of the 20 year old curiosities that were actually in the arcades.  Some of those oldies have even been updated by private individuals to take advantage of all of this neat new technology we have around us now.

Building control panels and home arcade cabinets does not revolve around MAME or any of these high-profile (to us; the rest of the world doesn't know they exist) players that would like you to think otherwise.

True, but you have to remember the main reason people are in this hobby is because of mame.  Not because of the thousands of shareware.  however, you find the shareware and you realize there is more than just mame.

[MrTroy]

For those of you that feel my reviews are too positive, I just finished a product review of something that I definitely feel is a piece of...erm...poop:

http://retroblast.com/misc/MG2005.html

 Wink

I don't see where the monitor plugs in

[SirPoonga]

iROMS - As others have stated, if there were a real market, it would have long been tapped.  Think about it this way:  When the big companies can't keep a compilation of 10 or 15 of it's best classic arcade offerings out of the "Value Software" bin, what makes you think it will do so much better with a most likely higher priced service like this one?  This is not the music biz, where there are new titles coming out every day that people want to download.  There are no "new" 20 year old video games.  The business models aren't even close.

there is a market.  Why do you think Atari pulled all those roms from starroms?  The Atari 80 game collection is $20 and not in bargin bins, been like that for many months.

Perspective is what is required here.  This is, and in the greater scheme of things will likely remain, a niche market.  The market is currently overstated, as many newcomers to the "business" side can probably attest to (but they won't).  The best evidence is when the "big players" close up shop for a while when the "day job" gets too hectic.  A well-known company in a real market doesn't need a day job, nor would they want one (voice of experience from a past life Smiley )

Have fun with the hobby and take the politics as lightly as possible because  in reality, at least at this point in time, it's like ants killing each other for a sesame seed.

Exactly.  This community is about recreating the the arcade experience and have fun.

[RandyT]

Listen folks, an arcade cab is nothing more than a PC in a fancy entertainment center, with a nice place to mount your joysticks and buttons so you don't have to hang onto them.  THAT'S IT!!

WRONG!  It's about recreating the arcade experience.  Physically that is all it is.  But that's not why people make them.  They don't make them just to house a pc and hang joysticks on.

Sorry, but you are attaching emotion to something to make it more than what it is.

I don't "feel like I'm at the arcade" when I'm playing at my Defender cabinet.  If I had about 30 more, all making noise and a bunch of jerky kids with mullets talking smack around me, then maybe.  An arcade machine is a functional piece of equipment that makes playing games more enjoyable.

True, but you have to remember the main reason people are in this hobby is because of mame. Not because of the thousands of shareware. however, you find the shareware and you realize there is more than just mame.

That's because MAME is there and is used heavily to market the idea.  If MAME wasn't there, the other marketing methods would likely have proven just as effective.

After all, who doesn't want an arcade machine at home, regardless of whether MAME is driving it or not?

RandyT

[ChadTower]

I'm thinking this community in the thread is resembling salem, Mass. about 300 years ago. Lets here the other side of the story first.

Erm, no.

[RandyT]

there is a market.  Why do you think Atari pulled all those roms from starroms?

Uhhh...because they weren't performing well in that venue??

The Atari 80 game collection is $20 and not in bargin bins, been like that for many months.

Let's see....that comes out to 25 cents a game.  Jeez, how much cheaper do you think the iROMS thing will be?



RandyT

[SirPoonga]

Listen folks, an arcade cab is nothing more than a PC in a fancy entertainment center, with a nice place to mount your joysticks and buttons so you don't have to hang onto them.  THAT'S IT!!

WRONG!  It's about recreating the arcade experience.  Physically that is all it is.  But that's not why people make them.  They don't make them just to house a pc and hang joysticks on.

Sorry, but you are attaching emotion to something to make it more than what it is.

I don't "feel like I'm at the arcade" when I'm playing at my Defender cabinet.  If I had about 30 more, all making noise and a bunch of jerky kids with mullets talking smack around me, then maybe.  An arcade machine is a functional piece of equipment that makes playing games more enjoyable.

RandyT

Reread my eit first.

No, it's about recreating the experience.  Otherwise we'd all be happy with a desktop controller and a pc.

Example, that's why I will take an ipac over a keywiz.  The blinking start buttons adds to the experience.

Just becuase you don't strive for the experience doesn't mean others don't.  So that makes your defender example very convenient.

[SirPoonga]

there is a market.  Why do you think Atari pulled all those roms from starroms?

Uhhh...because they weren't performing well in that venue??

That's a relative terms.  They weren't performing to Atari's standards henc ethem pulling them and trying to sell the gmaes themselves.  They still think the games are sellable, so there is a market.

The Atari 80 game collection is $20 and not in bargin bins, been like that for many months.

Let's see....that comes out to 25 cents a game.  Jeez, how much cheaper do you think the iROMS thing will be?



RandyT

Did I say anyhting about iROMS.  I don't get your comment.  I was saying it isn't in the bargin bin, and it hasn't been since it came out.  Bargin bins are usually $10 or less and have there own spot in the store.  So how does the iROMS statement relate to that???

[Tiger-Heli]

Come in to chat, I will discuss with you.  Such as you don;t seem to understand the keyboard programming the ipac has.

Never been to Chat.  I clicked Chatroom above and it gives me a screen that says "Enter Nick"  (would that be yours or mine?) and regardless says "Could not establish connection to irc.scifi-fans.net on port 7,000"

We can talk about the programming. 

Something to discuss in chat, the EEPROM vs SDRAM is a big deal.  You need the software for the keywiz in order to use it then.  So if you use a linux boot cd you are screwed.

You need the software if you are not using the default codeset.  MAME on Linux will work fine with it.  If you want to play PC games on Linux with it, you might be better with another encoder, more due to the I-PAC having Linux programmable software than due to EEPROM.

That and the keyboard LEDs are the two reason enough I think one shouldn't get the keywiz.  most people in this community are in this community to reproduce the arcade experience.  Having blinking start buttons that work as they are suppose it part of that experience.

For about a dozen games.  (Otherwise the lights on the KeyWiz work as they are supposed to, they aren't included and don't do anything).  Don't get me wrong, I like the LED function, but this will all be moot when Buddabing's LED controller or RandyT's gets released.

[SirPoonga]

Come in to chat, I will discuss with you.  Such as you don;t seem to understand the keyboard programming the ipac has.

Never been to Chat.  I clicked Chatroom above and it gives me a screen that says "Enter Nick"  (would that be yours or mine?) and regardless says "Could not establish connection to irc.scifi-fans.net on port 7,000"

Say something in the board discussion forum.  Enter nikck is what nick you want to use.

We can talk about the programming. 

Something to discuss in chat, the EEPROM vs SDRAM is a big deal.  You need the software for the keywiz in order to use it then.  So if you use a linux boot cd you are screwed.

You need the software if you are not using the default codeset.  MAME on Linux will work fine with it.  If you want to play PC games on Linux with it, you might be better with another encoder, more due to the I-PAC having Linux programmable software than due to EEPROM.

Depends on how you use it.  Note i said live linux cd, hence you probably won't have the software  on it.  So being able to program the ipac without software is a must.

That and the keyboard LEDs are the two reason enough I think one shouldn't get the keywiz.  most people in this community are in this community to reproduce the arcade experience.  Having blinking start buttons that work as they are suppose it part of that experience.

For about a dozen games.  (Otherwise the lights on the KeyWiz work as they are supposed to, they aren't included and don't do anything).  Don't get me wrong, I like the LED function, but this will all be moot when Buddabing's LED controller or RandyT's gets released.

Much more than a dozen.  Practically all the atari games.  It's a small percentage of mame, but a larger percentage of the games people actually play.  Especially if all you play are the "classics". 

And no, it doesn't make it a moot point.  With the ipac you get the functionality in one board, no two seperate purchases.  Yes, however, with the led driver there is more flexibiility, but then you need software to actually use it correctly.  Hence if you wanted to have it work with mame code changes to mame will need to take place.

But like I said, there's a whole bunch of other issues with the rebuttal that would best be discussed in a one on one format.

If you are using firefox use chatzilla to hook up with chat   i t hought it was port 6667, so the java app is probably not configured correctly.

[RandyT]

there is a market.  Why do you think Atari pulled all those roms from starroms?

Uhhh...because they weren't performing well in that venue??

That's a relative terms.  They weren't performing to Atari's standards henc ethem pulling them and trying to sell the gmaes themselves.  They still think the games are sellable, so there is a market.

Why do I feel like I just told you that there's no Santa Claus.  Look, if the titles were selling well in  that very iROMS like service, they would still be there.  They aren't, and that says something.  This is part of the "perspective" I talked about.

Did I say anyhting about iROMS.  I don't get your comment.  I was saying it isn't in the bargin bin, and it hasn't been since it came out.  Bargin bins are usually $10 or less and have there own spot in the store.  So how does the iROMS statement relate to that???

You took my comments out of context, I was just trying to put them back in.  Regardless, you take a 15 game compilation at .25 per game, that's $3.75.  A rational person could look at an 80 game compilation at that cost per title and come to the conclusion that it was released into the value bin.

Just becuase you don't strive for the experience doesn't mean others don't.  So that makes your defender example very convenient.

My Defender never had blinky lights for start buttons, nor do a few thousand others.  And the thought of you "striving" for the arcade experience in your apartment is bringing a tear to my eye (J/K, <elbow to the ribs> and all that stuff)

RandyT

*edit*
spelling...

[SirPoonga]

Why do I feel like I just told you that there's no Santa Claus.  Look, if the titles were selling well in  that very iROMS like service, they would still be there.  They aren't, and that says something.  This is part pf the "perspective" I talked about.

Oh, I get it, you are confusing starroms with iROMs. 
I think starroms didn't take off because of poor marketting.  They mainly just hit mame.net.

You took my comments out of context, I was just trying to put them back in.  Regardless, you take a 15 game compilation at .25 per game, that's $3.75.  A rational person could look at an 80 game compilation at that cost per title and come to the conclusion that it was released into the value bin.

However, most people won't think what a deal, 80 games for $20, so that's $0.25 per game.  They will decide if they want to spend their $20 on that versus the $20 software next to it, so they will see it as one package.

And the thought of you "striving" for the arcade experience in your apartment is bringing a tear to my eye (J/K, <elbow to the ribs> and all that stuff)

I'm not the only one, that's my point.  Most people here are building a cabinet because they want the arcade experience.  Yes, your defender doesn't have blinking start buttons, but almost everything atari does.  And that makes up a rather large percentage of the games in mame that are played.

And my arcade experience is differnt than yours.  I don't think crowded arcade with noisy people.  I think 1 or 2 games in a restaurant.  By me when growing up there wasn't an arcade in the area.  And most of the good games are atari from that era.

Just because you don't do something doesn't mean the rest of the community doesn't.

[Tiger-Heli]

I don't think I have a chatzilla.  Firefox doesn't want me to install it (to protect my computer).  Not having much luck with this chat idea.

[SirPoonga]

pm me if you have aim or msn.

[Tiger-Heli]

Don't have either of those either.

[IntruderAlert]

I've never understood why so many people have to advertise their stuff on ebay as MAME compatible instead of PC compatible.
But since so many people do that it makes it easy for Foley and others to target them.
If they just said "PC compatible" or "compatible with all Arcade Emulators for the PC" I don't see how they could be attacked.

And what exactly is the real concern of Foley?
The ROMS themselves or just the elimination of any possible competition no matter how insignificant?

I mean.. when they're pulling auctions for T-Mold and keyboard encoders something is definitely wrong with this picture.
What the heck does Foley expect people to run the IROMS on anyway?

[RandyT]

Oh, I get it, you are confusing starroms with iROMs. 
I think starroms didn't take off because of poor marketting.  They mainly just hit mame.net.

Anyone even remotely involved in this hobby knows about StarROMS.  Marketing isn't the problem.

However, most people won't think what a deal, 80 games for $20, so that's $0.25 per game.  They will decide if they want to spend their $20 on that versus the $20 software next to it, so they will see it as one package.

This affects the "end-price per title" how?

Again, I think most people will do the math, just like if they were buying ketchup (provided it's the kind of ketchup they like)

And my arcade experience is differnt than yours.  I don't think crowded arcade with noisy people.  I think 1 or 2 games in a restaurant.  By me when growing up there wasn't an arcade in the area.  And most of the good games are atari from that era.

Ahh, so really, you are "striving" more for a "restaurant with a couple of games" experience, rather than a true arcade one

Just because you don't do something doesn't mean the rest of the community doesn't.

IMHO, based on the above comment, I'm thinking it might just be you who is in the minority

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

And what exactly is the real concern of Foley?
The ROMS themselves or just the elimination of any possible competition no matter how insignificant?

Unfair competition is what his original letters stated.

What the heck does Foley expect people to run the IROMS on anyway?

He sells a $4,000 arcade cabinet that he would let you buy. 

[SirPoonga]

IMHO, based on the above comment, I'm thinking it might just be you who is in the minority

Who's been in this community longer?
Who chats regularly with the people of this community in the chat room?
Who interacts with more people here?

There's three types of gamers here, in general.  There's those who play the classics (anything before 1990 basically), those who play early-mid 90s games, and those who play the more modern games.
Most everyone in the classics section will want to replicate the blinking lights because most of the games in that era are atari.  it's that simple.

Anyone even remotely involved in this hobby knows about StarROMS.  Marketing isn't the problem.

Then why say that iROMs like service, why not call them by name?

Again, they didn't sell because atari didn't think they were doing as good of a job as atari hoped for and decided to try it for themselves.  That still proves my point they are markettable.

This affects the "end-price per title" how?

Again, I think most people will do the math, just like if they were buying ketchup (provided it's the kind of ketchup they like)

It doesn't affect the end-price per game at all.  It does affect the title.  The title is something liek Atari Aniversity set.  It's still one box, you can't buy them individually.  So a person is going to compare if they want to get that versus another box that is $20.  And $20 is not bargin bin.  if they were selling each game individually for $0.25 in the bargin bin then it would be bargin bin.

Ahh, so really, you are "striving" more for a "restaurant with a couple of games" experience, rather than a true arcade one

Either way, since atari was very popular in the 80s reproducing the LEDs is a must in my book.  It's part of the experience.
Funny thing is I was talking to someone about their DigDug machine.  i told him a year or so ago I found a bug in the LED handler for the mame driver.  He told me DigDug didn;t have blinking lights.  I asked if he had the volcano buttons on his cabinet.  he said yes.  I said check if they are hooked up correctly.  Low and behold, he now has blinking lights

Edit:  proof people are looking for lighted start buttons.  Look at the fact that people ask where to get volcanos quite often around here.

[RayB]

Why isn't this thread locked yet? aaahhhhggg

I just want to say that the only business model that would work is a virtual online arcade where you actually pay like a nickel or dime per game and then get a bill at the end of the month. You give the illusion of "cheap" but when you get addicted and play and play it adds up to nice profits. (only would work with the proven classics though).

[RandyT]

IMHO, based on the above comment, I'm thinking it might just be you who is in the minority

Who's been in this community longer?

Uh-oh, looks like we went over the "pull out the ruler" line.

I had a ColecoVision hacked into a home-built arcade cabinet with 2 real WICO leaf joysticks and leaf pushbuttons before there was even an Internet for you to log into.  Don't base the world on what you see on your monitor.

Who chats regularly with the people of this community in the chat room?

Every time I drop in, there's almost nobody (but you) in there.  Either you are scaring them off, or this is more evidence of the niche market I spoke of.  The forums are a better way to find info with less bias anyway.

Who interacts with more people here?

I experience your "interaction" all the time.  Don't think I would miss it  (and I'm sure others will say the same of me )

There's three types of gamers here, in general.  There's those who play the classics (anything before 1990 basically), those who play early-mid 90s games, and those who play the more modern games.
Most everyone in the classics section will want to replicate the blinking lights because most of the games in that era are atari.  it's that simple.

When you are ready to back this up with some numbers, be sure to post back.  By my count, the assertion you just made about pre-1990's games is bizarre at best.

Then why say that iROMs like service, why not call them by name?

Because they were the context of our discussion.  I wasn't avoiding their name, and I know it well.

Again, they didn't sell because atari didn't think they were doing as good of a job as atari hoped for and decided to try it for themselves.  That still proves my point they are markettable.

Yes, at 25 cents per title

Either way, since atari was very popular in the 80s reproducing the LEDs is a must in my book.  It's part of the experience.
Funny thing is I was talking to someone about their DigDug machine.  i told him a year or so ago I found a bug in the LED handler for the mame driver.  He told me DigDug didn;t have blinking lights.  I asked if he had the volcano buttons on his cabinet.  he said yes.  I said check if they are hooked up correctly.  Low and behold, he now has blinking lights

When LEDs become important, the KeyWiz will have very good support for them.  Although this may be moot when the LED-Wiz and Budda's LED controller hit, depending on gl.tter's progress of course.

While the LED start lights are a neat "doo-dad" they add nothing to the gameplay.  If you are placing that much emphasis on them, you've probably lost sight of what you built your cabinet for.  I hope you didn't spend $1000 to watch a button blink when you put a quarter in.

RandyT

[quarterback]

Who's been in this community longer?

Uh-oh, looks like we went over the "pull out the ruler" line.

I had a ColecoVision hacked into a home-built arcade cabinet with 2 real WICO leaf joysticks and leaf pushbuttons before there was even an Internet for you to log into.

[ChadTower]

I think LEDs are important now.

[IntruderAlert]

I don't see what you guys are arguing for.

Foley wants to put an end to the BYO-ArcadeControls community
Why else would he be pulling auctions for T-Mold and keyboard encoders and such?

All off this stuff about the roms is just a smokescreen and a method of disrupting the spirit here

[JoyMonkey]

I haven't followed this thread fully, and I'm not sure how it got onto LEDs, but I've always used KeyWiz's in the past and have been very happy with them. But, I just ordered a couple of IPacs for the sole reason that the IPac has a header for the 3 keyboard LEDs - 3 LEDs is all I need and I gladly paid $20 extra for an encoder that supports them.

[RandyT]

I think LEDs are important now.

That's fine.  How do you have them implemented on your panel/cab?

There can be some hefty costs associated with them, especially if you want those cone switches SirPoonga keeps referring to.  If you want to re-create that "experience", you'll have a tough time of it.

Aside from encoder support, to drive them properly, you'll need an LED driver board (if that design will even work on these, I'm assuming it does) as well as the buttons themselves.  The driver board can be picked up at Gamecab for about $14.00 and that's a steal compared to what the buttons will cost you.  They have been out of production for a very long time, so an old CP on eBay is just about the only source.  The last one I saw went for ~$90 because it had 2 of them on it.

Nifty, yes.  Worth the price of admission for what they do?  Not if you are talking about Atari cones switches.

Just my opinion

RandyT

[SirPoonga]

I had a ColecoVision hacked into a home-built arcade cabinet with 2 real WICO leaf joysticks and leaf pushbuttons before there was even an Internet for you to log into.

That doesn't mean you were in THIS community then.  You don't know my past either...
My point was you make it sound like I don't know what I am talking about.  I do.  I talk with the people around here regularly.  i know you do to which makes me wonder why your opinion varies so much.

Who chats regularly with the people of this community in the chat room?

Every time I drop in, there's almost nobody (but you) in there.  Either you are scaring them off, or this is more evidence of the niche market I spoke of.  The forums are a better way to find info with less bias anyway.

Heh, you have pretty biased info, so how is that "less"?
I hardly see you in the chat.  Most of the people chat in the evenings.

Who interacts with more people here?

I experience your "interaction" all the time.  Don't think I would miss it  (and I'm sure others will say the same of me )

My point was I have been in this community for a long time. and talk with many people regularly.  Even outside of the forum.

There's three types of gamers here, in general.  There's those who play the classics (anything before 1990 basically), those who play early-mid 90s games, and those who play the more modern games.
Most everyone in the classics section will want to replicate the blinking lights because most of the games in that era are atari.  it's that simple.

When you are ready to back this up with some numbers, be sure to post back.  By my count, the assertion you just made about pre-1990's games is bizarre at best.

Lest's see your count then?
if you hung around in this community you'd get that feeling.  If I can get HowardC in here he'd tell you the same thing.  I belong to the classics group, he belongs to the early-mid 90s.
This doesn;t mean that is the only game they play, just the majority.  I do play some neogeo and modern vertical fighters once and while.  But most of my gmaing is the classics like tempest, pacman, frogger, digdug, space duel, asteroids, etc...

While the LED start lights are a neat "doo-dad" they add nothing to the gameplay.  If you are placing that much emphasis on them, you've probably lost sight of what you built your cabinet for.  I hope you didn't spend $1000 to watch a button blink when you put a quarter in.

It does add to gameplay.  it lets you know if you have credits  and more than 1 if both players are blinking   But it isn't always about the gameplay, that was the point.
It's like if they comeout with identical PC lightguns, but one has recoil, which one do you think people will prefer?  While recoil doesn't add to gameplay it adds to the experience.

I am not putting emphasis on them.  I did not say a cabinet HAS to have them.  I am pointing out that your opinion that they don't enhance the arcade experience is wrong.
I supported my view with fact.  A large percentage of the pre 1990 games are atari.  Most of those have LEDs.  People seek the volcano buttons often around here.

I could turn your statement around right back on you with all the emphasis you put on not having them.

It's a difference in opinion.  However I htink since it is a keyboard encoder it could do the keyboard LEDs.  It will appeal more users to have the extra functionality. 

I didn't want to bring your products into this, I just wanted it a discussion about the ideas, but since you make a keyboard encoder...
Now your point of not having them on the keywiz because they take up inputs is moot.  Now that you have the stealth shift thing you still have more inputs than most people need.  So what stops you from adding the support?

We have opposite ideas.  That's the problem between us.  But as you see by other replies there are other people with simular opinions to me.  i hope you see that and take advantage of it.

But joyMonkey is right, we got off topic. i will stop at this.

[SirPoonga]

There can be some hefty costs associated with them, especially if you want those cone switches SirPoonga keeps referring to.  If you want to re-create that "experience", you'll have a tough time of it.

To you as the manufacturer or the user?  For the user it doesn't cost that much.

[RandyT]

There can be some hefty costs associated with them, especially if you want those cone switches SirPoonga keeps referring to.  If you want to re-create that "experience", you'll have a tough time of it.

To you as the manufacturer or the user?  For the user it doesn't cost that much.

No, to the user.  Read the post again and then tell me where you intend to find the much coveted Atari buttons.  Would you like me to post the ~$90 auction for an otherwise bare and beaten Centipede panel?

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

Now your point of not having them on the keywiz because they take up inputs is moot.  Now that you have the stealth shift thing you still have more inputs than most people need.  So what stops you from adding the support?

I don't think you fully understand the stealth-shift thing.  If you want to use all 32-inputs for gaming, then stealth-shift can be used for admin buttons.  You can't just decide to use 28 inputs and stealth-shift for an additional four action keys.

Maybe we need to get into this in the rebuttal thread.

[JoyMonkey]

The point that most games in Mame don't support the coveted blinky keyboard LEDs isn't really valid anymore, since AdvMame added keyboard LED script support you can easily add blinkyness^TM to every game in Mame (not authentic, but extremely blink-tastic!)

[dema]

As god is my witness, I would never take anything from Dave Fooly.

[rchadd]

Let Mame stop, it is finished anyway. Let someone else emulate the newer titles sometime in the future (and they will, they always do). Nesticle hasn't been updated in like 8 years, but my copy still works.

So true...

agree - how many more games are there to be added to mame anyway?

i've got all the ones i want.

[SirPoonga]

Now your point of not having them on the keywiz because they take up inputs is moot.  Now that you have the stealth shift thing you still have more inputs than most people need.  So what stops you from adding the support?

I don't think you fully understand the stealth-shift thing.  If you want to use all 32-inputs for gaming, then stealth-shift can be used for admin buttons.  You can't just decide to use 28 inputs and stealth-shift for an additional four action keys.

Maybe we need to get into this in the rebuttal thread.

You are right, I don;t understand it based on one of your comments

"It should also be mentioned that with the use of Stealth-shifted buttons, support for four player four button games with Coin and Start buttons is a real possibility, something that can't be done with an I-PAC/2.   Four-player 3-buttons games with Pause and Escape and shifted inputs for Coin and Start are also easily accomplished.  The I-PAC/2 can at best work with 27 inputs as a 4-player 2-button (27 useable) inputs controller (with restrictions below)."

I did the math incorrectly.  I stand corrected

[SirPoonga]

No, to the user.  Read the post again and then tell me where you intend to find the much coveted Atari buttons.  Would you like me to post the ~$90 auction for an otherwise bare and beaten Centipede panel?

Different topic, but still off topic, I will respond though.
May not be on there at this moment but I got my two silver volcanos for $5 each.  And I see old unknown atari control panels go for $20 and you get a couple of volcanos and joysticks
You just have to be patient and have a watchful eye.  Not everything you want is on ebay at this moment.
I picked up a single black volcano for $2 from a local vendor.

if you look hard enough and not take the first thing you find you cna find volcanos for cheap, well, relativaly cheap condirering there is that one site that sells them for $15.

Same applies to LS30s.  I picked up one LS30 for $10.

[ChadTower]

That's fine.

[SirPoonga]

I have a box of them.  They can be had reasonably if you wait long enough for the right deals.  Anything in this hobby can be had for a fairly reasonable price if you're willing to wait on it.  It's the gotta have it now now now attitude that makes things cost too much.

As with most things.  If you want it now it tends to cost more:)

Anyway, back on topic.  I would review an ultracade if someone gave me one.  After the review I might hand it over to someone a little more sinister than me to disasseble it to see how it ticks
Actually, I'd probably keep the cabinet, put new artwork on it since I don't like ultracade's 3D anime style, and put my 1942 board in there.

Heh, and I just got a couple of for "free".  Granted they are never being removed from the control panel but I am now an owner of an asteroids that was given to me (with a non-working monitor )

I got my leafs for "free" too.  They came on my double dragon II cabinet.  They just need a new shaft.  However they are going to stay on the cabinet too when I fix it up.  I'm having issues with finding artwork.  I found a guy who has some, but since he didn't want to send me pics so I could verify if he had the white cpo and not the tan one I gave up on him.

[RandyT]

I talk with the people around here regularly.  i know you do to which makes me wonder why your opinion varies so much.

That's because everyone isn't the same and don't have the same ideas or ideals.  I have people contact me asking why you hammer on me and my products incessantly, but others don't see it that way.  Everyone is going to have a different take on things, be it RetroBlast, Foley, Retroblast or RandyT   I think it's got something to do with that "diversity" thing people keep talking about.

Heh, you have pretty biased info, so how is that "less"?

The interested party gets to see not only your side, but my side, as well as all the other sides out there and become educated.  If they just listen to you, they just get your side.

I hardly see you in the chat.  Most of the people chat in the evenings.

I'm a fairly busy guy and I pop in once in a while using the guest account from the board.  If nobody is home, which is most of the time, I'll leave without signing in.  No fun chatting with yourself

My point was I have been in this community for a long time. and talk with many people regularly.  Even outside of the forum.

Great! You don't think you are the only one that can say that, do you?  "This community" extends well beyond "this website", and even so, I have a few years under my belt here as well.

There's three types of gamers here, in general.  There's those who play the classics (anything before 1990 basically), those who play early-mid 90s games, and those who play the more modern games.
Most everyone in the classics section will want to replicate the blinking lights because most of the games in that era are atari.  it's that simple.

When you are ready to back this up with some numbers, be sure to post back.  By my count, the assertion you just made about pre-1990's games is bizarre at best.

Lest's see your count then?

You made the assertion, so I believe the onus is upon you to provide documentation for your statement once it has been called into question.  But in any case, if you think Atari was the "majority" holder of titles pre-1990, I think you are just loopy

if you hung around in this community you'd get that feeling.  If I can get HowardC in here he'd tell you the same thing.  I belong to the classics group, he belongs to the early-mid 90s.

I know HC and you see eye-to-eye on a lot of things.  It doesn't  mean that you are representative of a group of people.

It's like if they comeout with identical PC lightguns, but one has recoil, which one do you think people will prefer?  While recoil doesn't add to gameplay it adds to the experience.

Funny, I always thought that clunky plasticky soundling recoil had more cheese than Wisconsin, but I've fired real .45's.  I'd like mine without, please, especially if I have to pay more for it.

I supported my view with fact.  A large percentage of the pre 1990 games are atari.  Most of those have LEDs.  People seek the volcano buttons often around here.

Actually it's not fact until you offer some sort of documenting evidence.  It's still pretty much "wild supposition" in my book.

I didn't want to bring your products into this, I just wanted it a discussion about the ideas, but since you make a keyboard encoder...

You always bring my products into question, every possible chance you get.  You do it so often, I can't believe you just wrote that

Now your point of not having them on the keywiz because they take up inputs is moot.  Now that you have the stealth shift thing you still have more inputs than most people need.  So what stops you from adding the support?

You also never have a problem talking about my products regardless of the fact that you have never even held one in your hands.  Please tell me what it is that qualifies you to make statements, like the one above, when you obviously don't even understand how they work?  Do you think that needing to build a circuit to support high-output LED's is "good thing"?  Or maybe that it's worth an extra $15 or more on top of your encoder purchase so you don't need to?   Wasn't it you who had a burned out input on your encoder because of the LED you used (my apologies if it wasn't, but ...)? 

We have opposite ideas.  That's the problem between us.  But as you see by other replies there are other people with simular opinions to me.  i hope you see that and take advantage of it.

SirP, I know you think that everything that is important revolves around the microcosm you seem to be attempting to maintain here, but it just isn't so.  There are thousands of good, smart, hard-working folks we are proud to have been able to call "happy customers" over the past couple of years, a good number who come back again and again.  This is the yardstick I have to measure things by, not annonymous condemning voices whose motives you can't know.


RandyT

[RandyT]

I have a box of them.  They can be had reasonably if you wait long enough for the right deals.  Anything in this hobby can be had for a fairly reasonable price if you're willing to wait on it.  It's the gotta have it now now now attitude that makes things cost too much.

Actually, it's people sitting on boxes of them that is driving the cost up 

RandyT

[ChadTower]

Actually, it's people sitting on boxes of them that is driving the cost up

[dema]

One more point:

[RandyT]

Actually, it's people sitting on boxes of them that is driving the cost up 

That is so not how supply and demand works.  Buyers drive up cost by shelling out the money.  If no one paid $15 then a cone button wouldn't be worth that much.

But that so is how supply is reduced, therefore causing a buyer to be willing to pay those prices,

RandyT

[ChadTower]

It's not hoarders (and my 8 spare buttons do not qualify as a hoard, just a bunch) that are causing that so much as old parts being trashed and old parts failing.  There probably aren't nearly as many being hoarded as there are being thrown away.

[IntruderAlert]

I can't wait for Kev's review of the ULTRACADE to find out if it has blinking ATARI start buttons 

[Witchboard]

The lighted cone buttons are easy to find and can be found cheap.

[SirPoonga]

I said that's enough, but you obviously don't want it to be so I won't   Actually, I just want to correct somethings you said, not argue anymore.

You also never have a problem talking about my products regardless of the fact that you have never even held one in your hands.  Please tell me what it is that qualifies you to make statements, like the one above, when you obviously don't even understand how they work? 

How do you know that?
I had an original keywiz at one point.  Bought it from someone else because I wanted to try it.  Also just because I don't own one doesn't mean I haven;t used one.  like I said, I talk to people outside of the forum.  I have met someone with one and tried it out.
What I was wrong with I correctled in a reply, I took something tiger-heli said incorrectly.

Now that I have a job I am getting ready to buy stuff again.  I will be purchasing a wiz49 for my upright.  When I make my cocktail I think I will move the ipac to that wince I remember volcanos on cocktails more so than uprights.  If I can get the wiz49 do be a complete replacement to the ipaq (IE I can figure out a way to map the buttons to have all the features I currently have) I will just use that.  Otheriwse if these LED boards work out, and they are programmable, I will get a keywiz eco because it is cheap and I don't have to deal with large shipping.  Hopefully with the LED boards I can control a relay for my qbert knocker...  I've been trying to come up with a good solution for that for years.
However, since I did pick up this asteroids machine my priority is going to be to get the monitor working.  So probably not until the end of summer I will start planning my cocktail  
But you will get some sales from me now.  You have the best prices for what you get.  If you could come out with something, USB, that is cheaper than the optipac I would almost buy that instantly because that is the major issue in my upright.  I want a single USB cord coming out of the control panel for my tball and spinner, and I don;t want hacks.  I want a commercial product.  But the optipac is too much for me for what you get.
Heck, my ultimate interface would be a 2 player setup with tball and spinner in one cord.  The mini-pac does not do this.  You need two ribbon cables to do that so it really doesn't solve the problem.  Come out with that and have it be less than or equal in cost than multiple interfaces and you hae a goldmine, well, in this community

Yeah, I know I ask alot of questions.  But that's because I want to know what I am getting BEFORE I get it.  I usually don't buy something without knowing what I can and can't do with it.  I don't have the money to throw around incase I don't like something.

[ChadTower]

The really annoying part about the LED buttons is that the buttons are easy but the stupid cones are hard!

[SirPoonga]

I have a box of them.  They can be had reasonably if you wait long enough for the right deals.  Anything in this hobby can be had for a fairly reasonable price if you're willing to wait on it.  It's the gotta have it now now now attitude that makes things cost too much.

Actually, it's people sitting on boxes of them that is driving the cost up 

RandyT

Randy, I love this comment.  I've been trying to find those nintendo button holders.  They are hard to come by.  However I know someone in the community that has a bunch of them.  grrrrr!!!!

[SirPoonga]

The really annoying part about the LED buttons is that the buttons are easy but the stupid cones are hard!

Especially if an LED burns out.

[ChadTower]

The really annoying part about the LED buttons is that the buttons are easy but the stupid cones are hard!

Especially if an LED burns out.

I've never looked at one hard enough, can the LEDs be replaced?  I mean, it's just an LED, right?

[Kremmit]

The really annoying part about the LED buttons is that the buttons are easy but the stupid cones are hard!

Gamecab sells decent repros.

The lighted cone buttons are easy to find and can be found cheap.  It's the black opaque ones that seem to evade me.

Maybe one of these could be made to serve.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,34207.msg336161.html#msg336161

[ChadTower]

This from a guy with an avatar that appears to be a monster made entirely of crap.

[dema]

This from a guy with an avatar that appears to be a monster made entirely of crap.

LOL!

I just chose it because I wanted one that nobody else had. But you're right...I look like a piece  of poo!

[IntruderAlert]

Just trying to get the topic back on course as to how much Foley and his company stinks.

sorry dema but you must have posted in the wrong topic

this topic is all about blinking start buttons

[dema]

Just trying to get the topic back on course as to how much Foley and his company stinks.

sorry dema but you must have posted in the wrong topic

this topic is all about blinking start buttons

I couldn't keep track. It's changed so many times.

I was responding to the fighting earlier.

I'll go back to sleep now.

[KevSteele]

Just trying to get the topic back on course as to how much Foley and his company stinks.

sorry dema but you must have posted in the wrong topic

this topic is all about blinking start buttons

I thought it was all about how I was a traitor and sell out! 

C'mon, people, let's get back on topic...where's the darn lynch mob? 

Kevin

[CJK]

For those of you that feel my reviews are too positive, I just finished a product review of something that I definitely feel is a piece of...erm...poop:

http://retroblast.com/misc/MG2005.html

 

Kevin

ROTFLMAO!

-- Chris

[SirPoonga]

Just trying to get the topic back on course as to how much Foley and his company stinks.

sorry dema but you must have posted in the wrong topic

this topic is all about blinking start buttons

I thought it was all about how I was a traitor and sell out! 

C'mon, people, let's get back on topic...where's the darn lynch mob? 

Kevin

Grabs a pitchfork.  rable rable rable....

[RandyT]

[C'mon, people, let's get back on topic...where's the darn lynch mob? 

Right behind you...the trick is to hold your hands above your head and make wild gestures to make yourself seems as big and ominous as possible so that....oh, wait, that's for bear.  I guess you're on your own on this one.

RandyT

[Silverwind]

I thought it was all about how I was a traitor and sell out!

[Tiger-Heli]

He turned me into a newt!!
... I got better.

You recovered and are no longer a newt, or you feel that you current existence as a newt is better than your previous existence?

[Havok]

Hopefully this is what happens: Foley is wildly successfull with building the iRoms service. All Mamers can get any ROM they want for a reasonable price, say a quarter each. The business prospers, and then Foley just disappears off the face of the planet forever.

At this point, the BYOAC community steps in. The Ultracrap Corp is thrown into disarray. We are able to start a collection and purchase Ultracrap. We then turn it all over to open source and make every ROM available for free.

A man can dream, can't he?

 

P.S. - Kev, come back, the dark side gives you wrinkles. Look at Senator Palpatine...

[KevSteele]

P.S. - Kev, come back, the dark side gives you wrinkles. Look at Senator Palpatine...

I find your lack of faith disturbing...

[Shape D.]

Hopefully this is what happens: Foley is wildly successfull with building the iRoms service.

I would find it hard to belive he would be able to convince namco to allow him to sell thier roms.

All Mamers can get any ROM they want for a reasonable price, say a quarter each. The business prospers,

I for one would never purchase anything from  that filth, and I'm sure there are many people out ther who would agree with me.

and then Foley just disappears off the face of the planet forever.

Now we're talkin'

At this point, the BYOAC community steps in. The Ultracrap Corp is thrown into disarray.

I'm sure it would fold before he sells it, and it wouldn't be the first time this company went under.

We are able to start a collection and purchase Ultracrap. We then turn it all over to open source and make every ROM available for free.

umm......... you still can't have free roms. the company who owns them would still like to paid for them.

[shmokes]

Hmm....I got bored and couldn't read the whole thread.  I just have one request of Kevin.  If you do sell your soul and review an Ultracade, could you please dump the hard drive and get people working on hacking his frontend.  It's pretty nice.  It would also be an ideal opportunity to see if he's got MAME code hiding in there running the ROMS.

Thanks.

[rackoon]

Let's give Kev a break, He is like a Consumers Reports type dude.
    We don't want to lose this objective view among the MAME comunite.

    If need be, we will burn both at the stake. (Foley first of  course) But lets give Kev a pass until we can coinfirm he is hardcore. ( His web site has helped me alot!, so I cant just throw him to the Wolfe's).

    Lets face it, any review of a Ultracade product that doesn't jive with its performance will be apparent soon. I believe that his (Keve's)  opinion regarding Ultracade should be respected until he is found as a traitor. Then, the Salem which trials will seem petty!!!!!
   
    Lets face it, Ultracade doesn't have product that is worth reviewing. Unless they are selling to the rich or HIGH!

[KevSteele]

Hmm....I got bored and couldn't read the whole thread.

Attention: I'd just like to point out my initial reply (msg. 51) for anyone who's joining the lynch mob a bit late. 

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,38190.51.html

Kevin

We now resume the regularly scheduled ranting...

[RayB]

I think everyone worries about Fooley a little too much. His ego must be swelling with all the attention he gets here.

To put things in perspective, look at the Ultracade forums. They have 97 members only (and how many of those are actually BYOAC members who registered to stir up things?)

Iroms has never officially been announced except... well, I can't find the source! A googling only reveals Fooley mentioned it off-hand in a Slashdot article aimed at the MAME community. Other than that, I couldn't find a press release or anything like that on Ultracade.com.

If Fooley were serious, he would have some sort of official press release out. And if he were a smart business man, he would start BY PURCHASING STARROMS. (oops maybe I'm giving away ideas here).

[IntruderAlert]

You're right Ray
The only topic I could find asking about iroms in the ultracade forum basically gave a "no comment" in reply.

Maybe it's time to update your front page with something more interesting and useful to the community Kev

[Silverwind]

He turned me into a newt!!
... I got better.

You recovered and are no longer a newt, or you feel that you current existence as a newt is better than your previous existence?

I'm no longer a newt

[Silverwind]

For those of you that feel my reviews are too positive, I just finished a product review of something that I definitely feel is a piece of...erm...poop:

http://retroblast.com/misc/MG2005.html

 

Kevin

Kevin.. when will the video review be coming out?   

[Tiger-Heli]

We are able to start a collection and purchase Ultracrap. We then turn it all over to open source and make every ROM available for free.

umm......... you still can't have free roms. the company who owns them would still like to paid for them.

Not necessarily, depends on the agreement <cough> <cough> that Ultracade made with the IP owner, and whether that would transfer to us as the purchasers of Ultracade.

If say NAMCO sold the rights and they were transferable, but they wanted a 5-cent commission on each time they were sold, we'd be operating at a loss.

If they sold the rights for a flat $300,000 with unlimited distribution, we could give them away.

If they sold the rights for $25,000 and 10% of sales, we could also give them away and they wouldn't receive any more royalties . . .

[ChadTower]

If they sold the rights for $25,000 and 10% of sales, we could also give them away and they wouldn't receive any more royalties . . .

This type of contract always has a clause that guarantees revenue, such as stipulating that they are not to be given away free and dictating a bottom price at which they can be sold.

[IntruderAlert]

I like that new article on your front page Kev.
I have much the same sentiments as you do about the current state of console gaming.
I'm still interested in it but I honestly can't remember the last time I finished one completely.
One thing that I'd really like to see on your site is some pinball machine video reviews beginning with your own Attack from Mars machine.
That would be so cool

[KevSteele]

You're right Ray
The only topic I could find asking about iroms in the ultracade forum basically gave a "no comment" in reply.

Maybe it's time to update your front page with something more interesting and useful to the community Kev

I received another email from David Foley, and he's indicated that he's getting final preparations ready for the iROMs service, so it looks like it's definitely a go.

Current plans are for a DRM-free ROM service, possibly with a ".LIC" license file added to the ROMs showing that the ROMs are authorized/registered. With changes to MAME, it could recognize that ROMs are licensed and not display the "disclaimer" screen when launching that game. (not that that screen's a major inconvenience as it is, but it is some small reward for those who go "legit")

We'll see how it the system works when it's released, but it does seem to be moving forward.

(Oh, and I did change the front page to something hopefully less controversial

[IntruderAlert]

Did he mention MAME specifically?

[Tiger-Heli]

Current plans are for a DRM-free ROM service, possibly with a ".LIC" license file added to the ROMs showing that the ROMs are authorized/registered. With changes to MAME, it could recognize that ROMs are licensed and not display the "disclaimer" screen when launching that game. (not that that screen's a major inconvenience as it is, but it is some small reward for those who go "legit")

With changes to MAME, it could also stop distributing the source code, and not run the games unless it found the appropriate .lic file.

Not that older versions would ever be affected.

[pointdablame]

Current plans are for a DRM-free ROM service, possibly with a ".LIC" license file added to the ROMs showing that the ROMs are authorized/registered. With changes to MAME, it could recognize that ROMs are licensed and not display the "disclaimer" screen when launching that game. (not that that screen's a major inconvenience as it is, but it is some small reward for those who go "legit")

With changes to MAME, it could also stop distributing the source code, and not run the games unless it found the appropriate .lic file.

Not that older versions would ever be affected.

which would probably then start an Internet-wide trend of pirating .lic files....

[IntruderAlert]

by the way..
this kid has already written some sort of web application called IROMS
http://www.livejournal.com/users/compupc1/

oh.. and if anyone has a few bucks to spare:
http://dnbidder.com/view_domain.php?id=169&PHPSESSID=f445d4fccdd832d15df23f958eee322b

[Crazy Cooter]

Did he mention MAME specifically?

I'm also interested in that...

[Crazy Cooter]

Current plans are for a DRM-free ROM service...
possibly with a ".LIC" license file added to the ROMs showing that the ROMs are authorized/registered.

So.... how is that considered "DRM free"?  And how is he pitching it to companies without knowing what he is pitching?  Sounds like a pile of BS to me.  "Final preparations... but I don't know how it's actually going to work..."

[IntruderAlert]

as a side note.. didn't  Ultracade have unlicensed  Namco ROMS in their machines at one time?

[KevSteele]

Current plans are for a DRM-free ROM service...
possibly with a ".LIC" license file added to the ROMs showing that the ROMs are authorized/registered.

So.... how is that considered "DRM free"?

[KevSteele]

as a side note.. didn't

[JoyMonkey]

as a side note.. didn't  Ultracade have unlicensed  Namco ROMS in their machines at one time?

I believe they had some sort of agreement with Namco, but that agreement was pulled (for whatever reason) and Ultracade was forced to tell all of their customers to remove the Namco ROMs.

I don't think they were originally unlicensed, but I wonder what happened to led Namco to yank them...

Kevin

I'd say Namco thought it would be best to keep their roms to themselves since I'm sure their own Reunion machines generate more revenue than selling rights to Ultracade.

[Zakk]

Out of curiosity, why would mamedev want to add functionality for something that would only serve to make dave fooly money?  Since their stated purpose is to archive the games for the ages, why would they care if he wants to make legit roms, that only he has the right to sell?  Seems a bit far fetched.  I think if fooley wants to sell games he should write his own 'commercial' emulator for his legal roms.

[Tiger-Heli]

Out of curiosity, why would mamedev want to add functionality for something that would only serve to make dave fooly money?  Since their stated purpose is to archive the games for the ages, why would they care if he wants to make legit roms, that only he has the right to sell?  Seems a bit far fetched.  I think if fooley wants to sell games he should write his own 'commercial' emulator for his legal roms.

My guess would be if NAMCO (et. al.) threatened to sue them under the "incitement to commit copyright infringement" clause if they continued to support unlicensed ROMs.

[RayB]

Out of curiosity, why would mamedev want to add functionality for something that would only serve to make dave fooly money?

[dema]

I too received an email from Dave Foley. Apparently he is selling his two young children and his octagenarian mother to anyone interested...dirt cheap.

He said something about them not paying their rent on time, and that he's not running a halfway house for a bunch of dead-beats, no matter how old they are.

[KevSteele]

Out of curiosity, why would mamedev want to add functionality for something that would only serve to make dave fooly money?

[MameMaster!]

" Foley paid the folks that owned the rights to these games a pile of royalties (apparently) for licenses.

[IntruderAlert]

The regular warnings are bad enough but if I have to see that IROMS message all the time..
.. i was going to post a picture but you don't want to see that

it would be better if the message was just completely removed

[KevSteele]

The regular warnings are bad enough but if I have to see that IROMS message all the time..
.. i was going to post a picture but you don't want to see that

it would be better if the message was just completely removed

I would certainly hope that the MAMEdevs leave in the startup flag to suppress those disclaimer screens. Who knows if any of this will end up in MAME, anyway...

Kevin

[spriggy]

Damn...a marathon thread can really bring out the best in people!
 

[JoyMonkey]

How many games is he planning of having available on iRoms? It wouldn't surprise me if he ignores the copyright holders completely and throws every game in Mame onto iRoms. then starts removing them when the real owners complain. He could just tell them "Oh, well, nobody bought your roms, so I don't owe you any money."

He'll always be a scumbag in my book. I can't see anyone here ever using iRoms. Even if PCB prices are going way up- it feels a lot better having a games PCB in your closet than having a LIC file in your rom.
People are going to start making 'Boycott iRoms' signatures any minute now...

[monkeybomb]

How is foley going to find the time to dump all the ROMs he is going to sell?


I just can't see myself doing this.  MAMEdev gets no money, dumpers get nothing, but Foley gets cash as a middle man.  I'm just not into it.  He even wants to pee on all the ROMS with his company name.  Forget it.

If it were someone else then yes I'd like the license to the games I play, but not like this.

[Zakk]

I'm kind of with monkeybomb on this.  If it were almost anyone else, I don't think I'd mind shelling out some cash for 'supposedly' legal copies of roms, but I can't justify giving any profit to him.

Of course, considering his price tag on a cabinet, I could see $100 each per rom on his insipid service.

 "Oh, but that's less than you could buy the real game for!" -DF

[DreamArcades]

As for the overly-positive reviews: yes, I get enthusastic. But have you considered the fact that I may have actually liked most the products I've reviewed? I realize that you may not agree with my reviews, but I've never claimed to be anything other than an arcade enthusiast sharing my opinions.

I have bit my tongue long enough. Some readers may have noticed that I have been decidedly quite about all the MAME stuff going on. This is at the advice of my lawyer, but trust me it's hard to keep my mouth shut with so many important things going on in the MAME community right now.

Now that people are criticizing Kevin I think I must speak. I don

[rchadd]

The regular warnings are bad enough but if I have to see that IROMS message all the time..
.. i was going to post a picture but you don't want to see that

it would be better if the message was just completely removed

just imagine everytime you play a game you see ultracade and foleys name - talk about rubbing our noses in it

time for me to order DVDs with latest rom set i think...

[JoyMonkey]

Of course, considering his price tag on a cabinet, I could see $100 each per rom on his insipid service.

 "Oh, but that's less than you could buy the real game for!" -DF

You have to remember that the cabinets that Ultracade sells right now are for commercial use, so I'd image he's got to pay a hell of a lot more than for roms that are for home use. If that's the case, roms for home use should be pretty cheap. (at least they should be- I'm still not convinced that anything this guy does is legit anymore).

On a related note, how do we know that DF really has the rights to sell us the roms he's planning on selling? He'd better plan on getting some representatives of each company to make public statements stating that they have given him permission to sell the roms to the general public for home use.

[IntruderAlert]

Mike - I've gotta agree with what you said there
Thanks for speaking up

The regular warnings are bad enough but if I have to see that IROMS message all the time..
.. i was going to post a picture but you don't want to see that

it would be better if the message was just completely removed

just imagine everytime you play a game you see ultracade and foleys name - talk about rubbing our noses in it

time for me to order DVDs with latest rom set i think...

what the heck do you think .LIC stands for anyway?
every time it pops up Foley's saying ".LIC my butt!"

You have to remember that the cabinets that Ultracade sells right now are for commercial use,

Their "Arcade Legends" line is home use only and runs around $3000.00

[JoyMonkey]

You have to remember that the cabinets that Ultracade sells right now are for commercial use,

Their "Arcade Legends" line is home use only and runs around $3000.00

Yeowch! I wasn't aware of that; I thought all their machines were commercially licensed. If they do try to sell iRoms as similar prices, I don't think they're going to get much business from anyone.

[IntruderAlert]

here's a link for verification
http://www.bmigaming.com/arcadelegends.htm

[JoyMonkey]

here's a link for verification
http://www.bmigaming.com/arcadelegends.htm

Sweet mother of Robotron! Those prices are nothing short of criminal! So who's buying this crap? Is it just Costco customers with too much cash burning holes in their pockets? I just can't see how there'd be a market for home machines priced like this???

[IntruderAlert]

Check this out:
http://www.bmigaming.com/arcadelegends-blastpac.htm
"Arcade Legends Blast Pack"
Ok this is an "Arcade Legends" game pack "home use only"
You get 7 games:
Defender
Joust
KLAX
Robotron : 2084
Stargate
Tapper
Toobin

 All for JUST $ 275 !!!

That's only about $40 per game kids...

BUT WAIT!!
THAT'S NOT THE BEST PART!!!

You only get that fabulous price when you order this pack along with the system.
If you order it later it's ONLY ( * $375 if ordered after your initial game purchase )

..which = a little over $53 per game

but remember .. this is only for the "Arcade Legends" "HOME USE ONLY" cab OK

[JoyMonkey]

Wow! He needs to get a guy with a brittish accent to do an info-mercial for this crap.
I honestly had no idea that he was openly raping the public like this. I was imagining that he'd be selling iRoms at a similar price as StarRoms (not that I would ever give a penny to Ultracade, but I 'm in shock that he's actually selling games at these prices).
How much are the Ultracade commercial cabs?

Edit: I just checked some Ultracade prices at Happ, and the machines for comercial use actually seem to cost LESS than the ones for home use! WTF!

[Crazy Cooter]

There was an attached graphic as well, a "before and after" sort of thing:

Nobody is going to pay Foley monet to replace "type OK" with "All your ROM's are belong to us... D. Foley".

[IntruderAlert]

Wow! He needs to get a guy with a brittish accent to do an info-mercial for this crap.
I honestly had no idea that he was openly raping the public like this. I was imagining that he'd be selling iRoms at a similar price as StarRoms (not that I would ever give a penny to Ultracade, but I 'm in shock that he's actually selling games at these prices).
How much are the Ultracade commercial cabs?

Edit: I just checked some Ultracade prices at Happ, and the machines for comercial use actually seem to cost LESS than the ones for home use! WTF!

Wow! He needs to get a guy with a brittish accent to do an info-mercial for this crap.
I honestly had no idea that he was openly raping the public like this. I was imagining that he'd be selling iRoms at a similar price as StarRoms (not that I would ever give a penny to Ultracade, but I 'm in shock that he's actually selling games at these prices).
How much are the Ultracade commercial cabs?

Edit: I just checked some Ultracade prices at Happ, and the machines for comercial use actually seem to cost LESS than the ones for home use! WTF!

It depends on the configuration
Check out this page:
http://www.bmigaming.com/ultracadefaq.htm#UltracadeModels

You can spend over $7000 if you want

[IntruderAlert]

There was an attached graphic as well, a "before and after" sort of thing:

http://retroblast.com/photos/misc/iroms.gif

Nobody is going to pay Foley monet to replace "type OK" with "All your ROM's are belong to us... D. Foley".

[JoyMonkey]

... with a history like that it DOES make you wonder whether the .LIC licence you'll get with iROMS means anything at all 

I'm willing to bet I could sell you a licence that's just as legit for a lot less. Want a genuine Rolex watch with that? Hows about some Oakley sunglasses or a Burberry handbag?

[KevSteele]

Heh...BMI Gaming is well known in the pinball community as a major ripoff company, so it's no surprise that they're selling Ultracade's cabs, and at the prices quoted.

For everyone who hasn't already, be sure and check out the Ultracade site - it's been overhauled, and he's got a whole bunch of new stuff, such as standalone control panels, encoders, and more:

http://www.ultracade.com/accessories

None of it has prices yet, and lots of "coming soon" signs. This leads me to believe he's planning a major push into the "home retrogaming market", with iROMs leading the way.

I definitely feel he's permanently lost out on the MAME crowd, but I wonder if there's any market left beyond our community for arcade retrogaming? How many arcade fans are there out there that don't know about MAME, I wonder? Will product like this sell in stores? Is it enough to build a business on?

Still lots of questions, but I guess we'll see soon enough what's up...

Kevin

[IntruderAlert]

oh.. you're always so darn optimistic!

[KevSteele]

oh.. you're always so darn optimistic!

Oh, I'm always very positive...positive that something bad is going to happen. 

Kevin

[IntruderAlert]

Hey WAIT A SECOND!!!
That "Hammer Pro" says it has "an Oscar Controls style Spinner"
What exactly does that mean?

http://www.ultracade.com/accessories

[markrvp]

Am I the only one amused at the fact that after Foley's attack on the MAME community, he is now making products targeted to work with "today's leading consumer emulation" systems?

[monkeybomb]

Am I the only one amused at the fact that after Foley's attack on the MAME community, he is now making products targeted to work with "today's leading consumer emulation" systems?

I'm not amused by it, it's more amazed or funny in the non haha way.  The guy would have done all this and made a bundle.  We'd all love to see new products and get licenses for our favorite games, but now I'm pretty sure he'll never get a penny from a decent percentage of the market.  And this from a guy who buys everything for the hobby and asks questions later.  And yes mark I am very aware that we have that in common...I've seen your pile o stuff and it's acctually worse than mine

[RayB]

Hey WAIT A SECOND!!!
That "Hammer Pro" says it has "an Oscar Controls style Spinner"
What exactly does that mean?

http://www.ultracade.com/accessories

Kelsey should send a Cease and Desist to this jackass! (ie: "We own the trademark to Oscar Controls, blah blah blah, take your page down! Blah blah blah")

[monkeybomb]

That "Hammer Pro" says it has "an Oscar Controls style Spinner"

That's just unreal.

[markrvp]

Am I the only one amused at the fact that after Foley's attack on the MAME community, he is now making products targeted to work with "today's leading consumer emulation" systems?

I'm not amused by it, it's more amazed or funny in the non haha way.

[markrvp]

That "Hammer Pro" says it has "an Oscar Controls style Spinner"

That's just unreal.

If Foley didn't pay Kelsey for that, then I hope Kelsey bends him over and takes him for a nice long reaming.

[KevSteele]

Hey WAIT A SECOND!!!
That "Hammer Pro" says it has "an Oscar Controls style Spinner"
What exactly does that mean?

http://www.ultracade.com/accessories

Kelsey should send a Cease and Desist to this jackass! (ie: "We own the trademark to Oscar Controls, blah blah blah, take your page down! Blah blah blah")

I'm actually wondering if it has an actual Oscar Controls spinner in it.

[KevSteele]

Am I the only one amused at the fact that after Foley's attack on the MAME community, he is now making products targeted to work with "today's leading consumer emulation" systems?

I'm not amused by it, it's more amazed or funny in the non haha way.

[JoyMonkey]

One other thing everyone needs to remember: once iROMs is launched, Foley has promised a crackdown on pirate ROM sites. Don't know what that means for us all, exactly, but I predict more fireworks...

I didn't realize there were still rom sites out there. Don't people use bittorrent or newsgroups to find roms these days? I don't think he'll be able to do anything about that (or is he more powerfull than the RIAA?)

[MameMaster!]

I definitely feel he's permanently lost out on the MAME crowd, but I wonder if there's any market left beyond our community for arcade retrogaming?


Kevin....I think that's really the point here......beyond the "MAME TM" crowd (and who knows globally how big this group is really is ..... 100,000???....and I think that's optimistic)....NONE of us (or at best VERY FEW of us will participate in the "iROMS" program (by the way has anyone told Apple about this?).....

So who's left for this service?....the average joe paying $9.99 or $19.99 for JAKKS plug/play stuff?....the rich guy that buys expensive gifts at holiday time in the Shaper Image?....really what is the audience here?....where's the sustainable business model?

It's unfortunate that DF didn't marshall his resources to WOO THE MAME COMMUNITY NOT ALIENATE them.....too bad. Too late Dave.

I think a lot of us think you're a shrewd businessman...but you're really off target here....and I for one don't see how you can possibly make any real money off of this scheme.

But....time will tell. Who would have thought Michael Jackson would have walked?....maybe you'll be laughing at all of us in a couple of years.....but I doubt it.

[KevSteele]

One other thing everyone needs to remember: once iROMs is launched, Foley has promised a crackdown on pirate ROM sites. Don't know what that means for us all, exactly, but I predict more fireworks...

I didn't realize there were still rom sites out there. Don't people use bittorrent or newsgroups to find roms these days? I don't think he'll be able to do anything about that (or is he more powerfull than the RIAA?)

Problem with bittorrent currently is the requirement for a tracker site, which is what would be targeted by Foley. Worse, other tracker sites have been forced to turn over their logs, which shows who downloaded what (a bunch of trackers were recently shut down by the MPAA over the distribution of Star Wars III)

I know the bittorrent community is working on decentralized trackers, however.

Kevin

[Lilwolf]

iRoms would have a market.  Sure hes !@#$ up that market... But I will try and buy any roms I can legally.  Even from someone like him.  Why?  I want to legitamize my machine.  So if the price is right, on my favorite games, I will probably purchase...  But it will take a while before I buy from Foley for sure...  But just because he is a ja!@ Ars@# doesn't mean that my morals have changed.

As for bittorrent + trackers...  Someone built up a BitTorrent + RSS feed system that works with some white box / tivo computers.  So you can select tv shows in the past, it will RSS a request for that show.  Anyone on the system who recorded it will automatically put up a torrent and broadcast it.  Then anyone who is interested will start downloading it.  Pretty cool system.   I hope they do something similar.

but a problem with bit torrent... you don't have to access the server to get the info.  People can find all the the main seeds.  Then find from them (by attaching) all of the leechers.  This is all standard through the protocol.  So don't think your safe.  just realize that its more of a hassle then its worth to find out...  IE don't download really sensitive movies / code.   Starwars III wasn't the first movie to go after torrents.

[Lilwolf]

btw, can whoever started this thread change the title?

It doesn't seem like anyone is talking about RetroBlast anymore.  And I think its kinda damning. 

[Edgedamage]

I think a few people should send Apple a few emails like this:"how do I sign up for your future Iroms service I keep hearing about?" Also will it work with my new Ipod photo?

[Lilwolf]

LOL - Apple would be over him like a... well... a hog on an apple...

[Witchboard]

Hey WAIT A SECOND!!!
That "Hammer Pro" says it has "an Oscar Controls style Spinner"
What exactly does that mean?

http://www.ultracade.com/accessories

I would think it's similar to the auctions you see on eBay selling, "WICO style leaf joysticks."  Everybody knows they aren't WICO's but the design is based on them.

[MameMaster!]

Hey WAIT A SECOND!!!
That "Hammer Pro" says it has "an Oscar Controls style Spinner"




WOW.....that's chutzpah!!!!....amazing......this guy has alienated the MAME (tm) crowd...and yet he makes references to products only "we" would know!...

[JoyMonkey]

Here's an interesting tidbit from the Ultracade forums,

9 time out of 10 if the game works on MAME we can make it work for UltraCade or Arcade Legends.

Hmmm.... could that be because the ultra-secret software that's running inside is Mame code? Surely not?

[IntruderAlert]

iRoms would have a market.  Sure hes !@#$ up that market... But I will try and buy any roms I can legally.  Even from someone like him.  Why?  I want to legitamize my machine.  So if the price is right, on my favorite games, I will probably purchase...  But it will take a while before I buy from Foley for sure...  But just because he is a ja!@ Ars@# doesn't mean that my morals have changed.

I know where you're coming from,
but due to the way he handled the NAMCO roms and the MAME trademark in the past..
What we have been wondering about it whether he will actually have the rights to issue the licence over the roms
and whether the iROMS licence will mean anything at all

and as far as the pricing goes
if you check the last page you'll see that he's already selling ROM packs f or the "Arcade Legends" "HOME USE ONLY" cab
If purchased after the sale of the machine a pack including 7 games:
Defender
Joust
KLAX
Robotron : 2084
Stargate
Tapper
Toobin

will cost you  $375 which = a little over $53 per game

[Goz]

Hey WAIT A SECOND!!!
That "Hammer Pro" says it has "an Oscar Controls style Spinner"




WOW.....that's chutzpah!!!!....amazing......this guy has alienated the MAME (tm) crowd...and yet he makes references to products only "we" would know!...   

What makes everyone so sure he's not one of us. There are near 6400 registered users here.

Maybe all of the dick-heads of the past, present, and future have been / are / or will be DF... 

Things that make ya go hmmmm


-Goz

[IntruderAlert]

so.. he's like 100 Agent Smiths or something

[IntruderAlert]

Not sure if anyone's ever actually read all of this but just to be fair here is David's side of the story:

Like most things that are spread by rumor, the facts about me, UltraCade Technologies, and the M.A.M.E. emulation system are quite distorted. I will try and educate anyone who cares to listen about the reality of our marketplace and what we are doing and what we are not. Simply put, we are making an effort to stamp out the commercial sales of M.A.M.E. based systems that advertise the ability to play thousands of games while relying on the customer to obtain the ROMs which can not legally be obtained. What we are not doing is trying to claim ownership of the M.A.M.E. open source emulator or sue its authors. We are concerned about the commercial marketplace, and not the readers of the many M.A.M.E. user groups and forums.

I have been working on emulation technology since the mid 80's when I did work on an emulation project in college. In 1994, while working on games for companies like Sega and Williams, we developed an emulation of the arcade games Joust, Defender and Robotron that ran on a Sega Genesis. In 1996, we started the Lucky 8 project which turned into the UltraCade project. In 1998 we were one of the first companies to acquire the rights to classic arcade games from various publishers. We have licensed games from several manufacturers including Capcom, Jaleco, Taito, Stern, Incredible Technologies, Midway, Atari and more. We have started several projects and built prototypes for companies like Sega, based on technology that was licensed from authors from the emulation community. We have licensed technology from many of the communities programmers, paying them to use their code in our products and demonstrations. We have been the leader of the retro arcade movement, and have invested millions of dollars creating a market for retro games. UltraCade was the first successful multi-game arcade machine combining many of the old classics. We further enhanced the market by creating Arcade Legends, our consumer version of the UltraCade product. We have also paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in licensing fees to have the right to sell our games.

In the past couple of years, there has been a huge wave of resellers competing with our UltraCade and Arcade Legends products. They build a similar style cabinet, install a PC in the machine, load M.A.M.E., and sell it for a very low price. Lower than we could ever offer our machines for sale. How? Quite Simple. They profit by stealing others work. If you look at the web sites, and read the eBay ads they offer machines that "Play over 4,000 Classic Arcade Games" They then try and skirt the law by pretending that they are not promoting piracy of these same 4,000 games with statements like "we don't load the ROMs" but of course, almost all of them do. The others that don't, they provide you with an instruction sheet with a link to several web sites where you can illegally download the ROMs, or provide you with the contact information for a CD/DVD duplication house that will sell you a set of ROMs for all 4,000 games for less than $200. Would anyone really buy this arcade machine if they knew that there was no legal way for them to run over 99% of the games that they were promised, I don't think so, and if you really look at this without emotion, I'm sure you would agree. These companies are simply selling the promise of thousands of games on a machine that can not possibly run them legally. I sometimes hear the argument, "well, I could go on eBay and buy up all of these games and then run it", and while plausible, it certainly would not be anywhere near cost effective, and again, if the customer knew that to legally operate these games, they have to spend thousands of dollars buying legal ROMs I seriously doubt that they would consider purchasing a M.A.M.E. machine. Anyone reading this email thread is an intelligent person, and if they put emotions aside, they will realize that what we are saying about selling M.A.M.E. machines and the promise of getting 4,000 games for the average consumer can't possibly happen. Unlike most of you reading this, the average consumer looking to buy a machine for their game room has no idea how emulation works, or what is legal and illegal to do. To them, they read an advertisement on a website or on eBay and compare our product with 50 games or an ad for a machine that promises thousands of games, with the promise of instructions about how to obtain those games. Of course, in this skewed environment the average consumer would gravitate towards the thousands of games machine, not realizing that the software and the games are unlicensed and illegal to play. Most consumers who are pointed at a web site selling a 7 DVD set of ROMs have no idea that this is an act of piracy, they were simply instructed to do this by the person selling them their arcade cabinet, and told this is how you get the games.

Now that we have attempted to take legal recourse to prevent illegal competition, the same people, who steal the work of the M.A.M.E. authors, and then profit by selling machines that have no value without the pirated games being made available, turn around and cry foul when we call them on their ways. They run to the M.A.M.E. discussion forums and spread rumors about UltraCade suing the authors of M.A.M.E. or stealing the M.A.M.E. engine. I'm amazed at the response of the community, a community that is being whipped into action by the same people who are stealing and profiting from them and they're efforts. Many people have reacted with hate mail without even considering to look at the facts of the situation, or to realize who is spreading the rumors. They are being spread by those who wish to profit by selling unlicensed games.

The simple fact is that we are attempting to stop the tide of illegal arcade machines, and the promotion of unlicensed games. The M.A.M.E. platform, while a technical marvel, consists of many violations of copyrights and trademarks. The authors have always stated in the documentation that it was not put into the public domain to steal from the game authors or publishers, and they have always been hands off about how to obtain the ROMs. They have also clearly stated that it is not to be used for commercial gains. A majority of the publishers who own the copyrighted material have not paid much attention to this marketplace, as until recently it has not had a huge commercial impact. But now, there are websites and eBay sellers selling machines that directly compete with legitimate publishers like us who publish games from Capcom, Taito, Midway, Atari and others, or publishers like Namco that publish Ms. Pac-Man/Galaga or the Donkey Kong/Mario Bros. machines.

Of the many thousands of games that M.A.M.E. supports, only a minute fraction of them can legally be played on a M.A.M.E. equipped machine, and many can not. There are many fallacies about the legality of owning ROMs and how you can play the game. Many people claim that they have a board set and therefore they can download as many ROMs as they like. The law is very strict. You can transfer the image from the actual original ROM chips, which you legally own, to another piece of hardware, provided that you actually transfer the code from the chips. Just having a board sitting around, and saying I have the right to play it is not the case. Many people point to StarROMs and say that they can then sell the games with the ROMs installed. This is not the case either. StarROMs license prohibits the resale of the game licenses, and only the end user can purchase these ROM images, resellers can not. Our market is further plagued by the rash of 4 in 1, 9 in 1, 24 in 1 39 in 1 and the new 300 in 1 "multicade" boards. These boards come from Taiwan and Hong Kong and contain illegal copies of the ROMs of several games.

This is a complex case amongst companies that are trying to make it about UltraCade stealing something from the M.A.M.E. team. That is not what this is about. This is simply UltraCade Technologies and other publishers doing whatever it takes to protect our commercial interests and prevent other companies from stealing our market by capitalizing on unlicensed games and selling products that only have value when coupled with illegally obtained games. Our application towards a trademark is to simply prevent anyone from commercially marketing an illegal product, nothing more. There have been no lawsuits filed against any of the M.A.M.E. authors, and there have been no claims towards the open source engine, nor will there be We are simply protecting our commercial market, and nothing more. We have no interest in the hobby community. We have no interest in the open source project. Our goal is to simply stop the rampant piracy in our marketplace, and we will use every means at our disposal to do so.

I welcome open discussions about this situation, and will respond to legitimate communications or questions.

-David R. Foley

http://www.ultracade.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=135&highlight=mame#135

[Edgedamage]

He's still a ---meecrob---.

[Shape D.]

I welcome open discussions about this situation, and will respond to legitimate communications or questions.

He lied, he never responded back to me whan I asked him why he's such a tool.

[Goz]

I've read Foley's stance a number of times and unfortunately still think he's a deuche-bag. While I would be willing to pay for legal ROM usage Dave has not proven that he is capable of being that source.

-Goz

[Goz]

He's still a ---meecrob---.

Great minds think a like.

[Edgedamage]

let's start a pool buy a ultracade reverse engineer it and post our findings on every bit torrent and P2P site out there. Bet there is some kind of Mame code in there that that ---meecrob--- has stolen.

[Edgedamage]

That DF guy is so thick he's probaly reading this thread think "Duh why are they calling me the french word for shower?"

[IntruderAlert]

We have no interest in the hobby community. We have no interest in the open source project. Our goal is to simply stop the rampant piracy in our marketplace, and we will use every means at our disposal to do so.

I welcome open discussions about this situation, and will respond to legitimate communications or questions.

-David R. Foley

With these new control panels http://www.ultracade.com/accessories and the whole whoop-T-do over the iROMS service and working with the MAME devs to include his .LIC licence in the MAME code ..
he sure is going to a lot of trouble to work with an open source project and to please a community in which they have no interest in either of

[IntruderAlert]

DOES THIS SOUND LIKE THEY HAVE THE RIGHTS TO LICENCE iROMS?


http://www.ultracade.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=50&highlight=#50


http://www.ultracade.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=53&highlight=#53



http://www.ultracade.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=55&highlight=#55

DOES THIS SOUND LIKE THEY HAVE THE RIGHTS TO LICENCE iROMS?

[DarkKobold]

This is simply UltraCade Technologies and other publishers doing whatever it takes to protect our commercial interests

From the horse's mouth.

I don't care what you think of illegal roms, of piracy, of crappy mame cabinets.

He was willing to steal from other people in his crusade.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Crazy Cooter]

This shows exactly what my point is...

Not sure if anyone's ever actually read all of this but just to be fair here is David's side of the story:

Like most things that are spread by rumor, the facts about me, UltraCade Technologies, and the M.A.M.E. emulation system are quite distorted. I will try and educate anyone who cares to listen about the reality of our marketplace and what we are doing and what we are not. Simply put, we are making an effort to stamp out the commercial sales of M.A.M.E. based systems that advertise the ability to play thousands of games while relying on the customer to obtain the ROMs which can not legally be obtained. What we are not doing is trying to claim ownership of the M.A.M.E. open source emulator or sue its authors. We are concerned about the commercial marketplace, and not the readers of the many M.A.M.E. user groups and forums.


-David R. Foley

1) He doesn't care about the end user, only money:
"We are concerned about the commercial marketplace, and not the readers of the many M.A.M.E. user groups and forums."

2) He's a liar, trademarking something claims ownership.

[RayB]

So they supposedly invested time and money to develope SNK emulation BEFORE they have the rights negotiated? I think that proves right there that they're just ripping off existing emulators... No one in their right mind would spend time/money developing software they don't even know if they can sell!

[MameMaster!]

So they supposedly invested time and money to develope SNK emulation BEFORE they have the rights negotiated? I think that proves right there that they're just ripping off existing emulators... No one in their right mind would spend time/money developing software they don't even know if they can sell!

I agree...that makes no business sense.

[romperwomb]

This has gone past surreal.  I would have assumed the iROMs service would only make ROMs available for the emulator used by Foley's Arcade Legends and Ultracade...the one running Joshua OS that they've ?developed?  Is he planning on offering technical support to get his ROMS running under MAME?

[Crazy Cooter]

These are exactly the questions someone that actually owned the rights to a game title would ask.

[JoyMonkey]

From what I can tell, JoshuaOS is some sort of Unix derivative. If a bunch of us were to put a little cash together and get the $1000 conversion kit (and then perhaps return it after we realize it's crap) - what chances do you think we'd have of someone here deciphering the emulator code from the OS?

[romperwomb]

What about those poor saps that bought his Arcade Legends home market system...unless he charges the same prices for the iROMS as he does for his Arcade Legends game packs.   What is to stop them from MAME'ing their machines, purchasing the ROMs for cheap on iROMS and running an Ultrastyle Frontend?

Would he have to send himself a Cease and Desist order for unfair competition for his own service?

-one hand clapping...

[Witchboard]

From what I can tell, JoshuaOS is some sort of Unix derivative. If a bunch of us were to put a little cash together and get the $1000 conversion kit (and then perhaps return it after we realize it's crap) - what chances do you think we'd have of someone here deciphering the emulator code from the OS?

I'm sure by buying one of these machines you're required to subject yourself to an EULA.  I would presume this EULA would include a clause where you would have to agree not to reverse engineer his product.

[IntruderAlert]

From what I can tell, JoshuaOS is some sort of Unix derivative. If a bunch of us were to put a little cash together and get the $1000 conversion kit (and then perhaps return it after we realize it's crap) - what chances do you think we'd have of someone here deciphering the emulator code from the OS?

I'm sure by buying one of these machines you're required to subject yourself to an EULA.  I would presume this EULA would include a clause where you would have to agree not to reverse engineer his product.

the possibility of Ultracade illegally using MAME code is something that the MAME devs should be concerned with
but perhaps not something for us to determine for them

[JoyMonkey]

the possibility of Ultracade illegally using MAME code is something that the MAME devs should be concerned with
but perhaps not something for us to determine for them

True, I just wish someone would get it done so people can start sending DF cease and desist letters.

[IntruderAlert]

anyone just joining in, please go back and at least read over pages 5 and 6

[rackoon]

CHANGE THE NAME OF THE THREAD!

Retroblast is not a traitor! Kevin acts as a Consumer Reports service.

   His website helped me and, I am sure it helped many of you. Yea, he pissed off some folks (allot of folks, me included). In his defence I would like to point out that he is a non paid source of MAME product review.
   Yea, I know that he is too nice in some of his reviews YET, he does tell you which one he recommends over another (from that we can all figure out which product is best). {hell, if ya still got a question regarding a product email him, he will respond}.
    If he was brutal in a small market, no one would send him a product for review, then we would lose this outlet.
    So, In order to be fare lets start a new thread called Foley sucks, Foley is a ---smurfette---, Foley is a ass bandit, Foley likes to touch young -- well you  get point.
     
      I believe that the rest of this thread should be focused on  the  re-direction of this thread.\
   
     I also believe that this is one of the most important topic of our day so don't call me a traitor.
    \
     This is the most important topic regarding MAME at this time. Let's addresses it properly.

[Shape D.]

    So, In order to be fare lets start a new thread called Foley sucks, Foley is a ---auto-censored---, Foley is a ---censored by Shape D.--- bandit, Foley likes to touch young -- well you  get point.

I would advise against a thread with that name, thats what you call libel. It wouldn't suprise me ito find out foley would sue over something like that

[IntruderAlert]

Why? Did he already apply for the trademarks?
..sorry.. i couldn't help myself

[spriggy]

CHANGE THE NAME OF THE THREAD!

Retroblast is not a traitor! Kevin acts as a Consumer Reports service....

[saint]

o, In order to be fare lets start a new thread called Foley sucks, Foley is a ---auto-censored---, Foley is a ass bandit, Foley likes to touch young -- well you  get point.

No, don't do that. Debate, lament, chastize, disagree with, and otherwise comment on his actions, but do not attack the man personally, his mother, his dog, make sexual innuendos, or otherwise personally attack the man on my forums. This isn't specific to Dave Foley -- re-read the rules please. Don't do that to anyone on my forums.

Thank you.

--- saint

[saint]

Dave Foley is a registered user of this forum.

--- saint

What makes everyone so sure he's not one of us. There are near 6400 registered users here.

Maybe all of the dick-heads of the past, present, and future have been / are / or will be DF... 

Things that make ya go hmmmm


-Goz

[Crazy Cooter]

Too bad he never posts.  I've got a few questions for him.  Seriously, I do.  I know he'd just delete them on his board and it probably wouldn't be the best place to have the discussion anyhow.

Suppose Kevin didn't review his stuff... who would?  That's why I'd like to see him shunned out of our lives.

[HoopstarsGarage]

Due to the constant PM's regarding the topic of this thread, I have bowed to the pressure (as seems to be the thing to do these days  ) and changed the topic..

That said, I do NOT think that subject titles should be changed to suit the flavour of the thread, rather the thread should follow the original topic - in other words, this thread should have remained on topic.  I have a very strong view on the original subject and it was Kevins own response that actually swayed me to change the subject.  For the record, I think Kevin and his site do so much for this hobby and I have a great deal of respect for both - I guess it was with this in mind and the shock that he may have strayed to the dark side for the initial post.

Anyway, back to bashing Foley - thanks guys

Hoops

[IntruderAlert]

Dave Foley is a registered user of this forum.

--- saint

Is that Dave?

http://www.newsradioart.com/Pages/IntroDave.html

..or David R. ?

http://www.ultracade.com/news/93/ultracade8482-gets-playmeters-cover-story

hey look!! Dave's got an new haircut and beard just like David R.!!!
...hmmm  wonder if they're related

[KevSteele]

Just ran across this item in PlayMeter's news:

UltraCade ranked 48th in Entrepreneur and PricewaterhouseCoopers 11th Hot 100 List

UltaCade Technologies has been ranked 48th in the Entrepreneur magazine 11th Annual Hot 100 List of the fastest-growing new companies in the United States. This year's listing was assembled from an initial list of companies compiled by PricewaterhouseCoopers.

David Foley, CEO and Founder of UltraCade, said, "One of our secrets to success is to plan for the best case scenario and prepare for the worst case scenario. Of course, our success cannot be attributed to a single piece of advice. We have been fortunate to be able to build a very talented and dedicated team of individuals who are passionate about their work. Everyone has gone above and beyond the call of duty and put in many long hours and weekends to help build the company and our world-class products. We have been able to achieve an amazing amount of results from a very limited budget and relatively small team. I'm very proud of what we have accomplished." For more information, call (408)436-8885; Web (www.ultracade.com).

Don't know what to make of it, other than that he's always in promotion mode, isn't he?

Kevin

[IntruderAlert]

Dave Navarro and
Carmen Electra are two of many stars
that have UltraCade multi-game systems in their homes.

http://www.playmeter.com/0505coverstory.htm

[Tiger-Heli]

There was an attached graphic as well, a "before and after" sort of thing:

Everyone does realize that this graphic currently only shows up the first time you run a game and can currently be avoided altogether by placing and blank gamename.ini file in your .ini folder (even without the -show disclaimer flag), correct?

[quarterback]

There was an attached graphic as well, a "before and after" sort of thing:

Everyone does realize that this graphic currently only shows up the first time you run a game and can currently be avoided altogether by placing and blank gamename.ini file in your .ini folder (even without the -show disclaimer flag), correct?

Are you talking about the iRoms disclaimer?

[Tiger-Heli]

There was an attached graphic as well, a "before and after" sort of thing:

Everyone does realize that this graphic currently only shows up the first time you run a game and can currently be avoided altogether by placing and blank gamename.ini file in your .ini folder (even without the -show disclaimer flag), correct?

Are you talking about the iRoms disclaimer?

I-roms (Foley) is talking about changing the legal disclaimer to call out your licensed I-Roms.

[quarterback]

There was an attached graphic as well, a "before and after" sort of thing:

Everyone does realize that this graphic currently only shows up the first time you run a game and can currently be avoided altogether by placing and blank gamename.ini file in your .ini folder (even without the -show disclaimer flag), correct?

Are you talking about the iRoms disclaimer?

I-roms (Foley) is talking about changing the legal disclaimer to call out your licensed I-Roms.

Right, I was just wondering about your statement that "this graphic currently only shows up the first time you run a game" and whether or not that was a statement about Foley's I-Rom disclaimer or the current Mame disclaimer.

I guess you're saying that you were referring to both of them because you're referring to the I-Roms disclaimer as simply being a changed version of the Mame disclaimer, yes?   

I was only asking because I wasn't sure that the 'rules' that apply to a Mame disclaimer showing up or not, will apply to an I-Rom version.

[Tiger-Heli]

Yes, I am!   

Right, I was just wondering about your statement that "this graphic currently only shows up the first time you run a game" and whether or not that was a statement about Foley's I-Rom disclaimer or the current Mame disclaimer.

I was talking about how it works now, and assuming that the only changes Foley would get the dev's to make would be to change the image if his .LIC file was detected.

I guess you're saying that you were referring to both of them because you're referring to the I-Roms disclaimer as simply being a changed version of the Mame disclaimer, yes?   

Right.

I was only asking because I wasn't sure that the 'rules' that apply to a Mame disclaimer showing up or not, will apply to an I-Rom version.

True, too!  (I'm the one who initially posted that the dev's could also decide not to publish the source code and not to make any roms load unless a .LIC file was detected.)

[IntruderAlert]

I was only asking because I wasn't sure that the 'rules' that apply to a Mame disclaimer showing up or not, will apply to an I-Rom version.

True, too!  (I'm the one who initially posted that the dev's could also decide not to publish the source code and not to make any roms load unless a .LIC file was detected.)

I'll bet you made Foley really happy when you said that

[Haze]

MAME is 'open source' (technically not true Open Source, we use our own license) and its staying that way.  Any paranoia over Mame going closed source, or linking to closed source libaries is uncalled for.  Remember, our focus is on creating a technical documentation project, the source is the most important thing to us, otoh we couldn't care less if nobody ever distributed any binaries.

[Tiger-Heli]

MAME is 'open source' (technically not true Open Source, we use our own license) and its staying that way.  Any paranoia over Mame going closed source, or linking to closed source libaries is uncalled for.  Remember, our focus is on creating a technical documentation project, the source is the most important thing to us, otoh we couldn't care less if nobody ever distributed any binaries.

Thanks Haze, glad you're on here.

Okay, so mame won't go closed source, but they could post binaries that only worked with Foley Roms and then only made the compile environment available to the dev team members. . .

[rackoon]

I apologize for going over the top with my comments,
(SORRY SAINT). I love your forum and your book; I wont do it again.

 

[Haze]

MAME is 'open source' (technically not true Open Source, we use our own license) and its staying that way.  Any paranoia over Mame going closed source, or linking to closed source libaries is uncalled for.  Remember, our focus is on creating a technical documentation project, the source is the most important thing to us, otoh we couldn't care less if nobody ever distributed any binaries.

Thanks Haze, glad you're on here.

Okay, so mame won't go closed source, but they could post binaries that only worked with Foley Roms and then only made the compile environment available to the dev team members. . .

Can't see it happening, as I said, we don't really care about the binaries, and it would go against the principals of open source development to post binaries for which the source wasn't available.

Foley can't do it either as the license says the source must be available and no linking can be done against closed binaries.

Short of Aaron or Nicola giving him pemission to distribute his own version nothing can be done.  Will somebody give him permission?  Who knows, seems doubtful to me as its quite feasible for him to work with whats already available.

Verificaiton screens like the ones shown wouldn't work anyway, we're already fighting a losing batle against people creating Mame with modifications we don't like, and somebody is sure to create one that tells you all the roms are legal, so whats the point?

At the end of the day if Foley wants to license and sell roms then nobody is going to stop him, hes perfectly within his rights to do so, and the chance to purchase legal roms is something a fair number of people would like to see, however, if he ends up making people go out of their way to use the roms they've purchased then hes only severely reducing his target audience which isn't a sound business practice.

As I said, it seems like paranoia to me, short of Foley employing suicidal business techniques 'iRoms' seems like a good idea, except for the name which is probably going to have Apple knocking at his door quicker than he can say Pacman.

[IntruderAlert]

One thing I am concerned about is that by looking at several comments by Foley and other Ultracade employees on their forum it appears that they don't actually own the rights to very many roms in the first place.

[shmokes]

the possibility of Ultracade illegally using MAME code is something that the MAME devs should be concerned with
but perhaps not something for us to determine for them

Bah...nonsense.  It is in the interest of everyone in the world who uses MAME to expose David Foley, if he is in fact using MAME code in his Ultracade machines.  And maybe the MAME devs would love to know if he's doing that, but don't have the time or money to find out.

EULA be damned.  What's he going to do if someone digs around and finds out he's got illegal code in there....sue them for reverse engineering "his" product?

[IntruderAlert]

I've heard stranger stories..

Let me know how that turns out for you

[RetroJames]

Well I have been concentrating on other things for a while and I poke in here only to see Kev Steele getting hammered for his DF related reviews.

I read the thread up to Kev's first response and decided I would drop my $0.02.

For what it is worth, IMHO The man is truly a great guy and he really loves this hobby.  I had the oppourtunity to write some reviews for RetroBlast and from the first effort through all after it, Kevin was supportive, helpful, generous beyond belief, and totally and honestly excited about the hobby and everything it represented.

When the DF situation developed, Kevin was at the forefront grilling DF about his actions, hammering away when DF spoke in circles, and basically took him to task.  It was obvious from my perspective, as I was communicating regularly with Kevin at the time, that someone had pissed in his yard and he was not happy.  He was defending the hobby, and many who have contributed to it.

Since then he has made the decision to review UC items.  I applaud him for that.  RetroBlast is nothing if it is not true to the audience.  That means honest reviews, objective writing, and fair dealings.  By deciding to review UC products he is abiding by that commitment. 

If I am a newbie to the hobby, and I stumble on Ultracade products, who will help me decide if they are right for what I want to do?  Should I base my decisions on the IP fight regarding mame?  Should I form an opinion based on the rantings of overzealous slashdot subscribers?  Who is there to help?  Kevin Steele at RetroBlast is.

At the end of the day, if I am building a cabinet, or wanting to buy one, I want an honest assesment of what I am getting myself into.  What has always been great about this hobby, part of the reason I was and am drawn to it, is that most everyone is there to help.  "Need a graphic?"  "Ok, I'll do it!"  "I have a cp, do you have a steering wheel?"  "Cool, let's trade."  "I can't figure this out!"  "It's ok, we'll help."

I don't want someone dictating who I should and should not deal with.  I honestly don't care that DF snatched the mame logo/emu, then gave it back.  Mame devs should have done it first, and frankly it might have been someone else who might not be willing to give it back.  DF got what he wanted, more restrictions on his competition.  Mame devs got what they needed, a little legitimacy and the power to enforce it.  I need someone to help me decide what to buy and why based on the product's merits compared to other similarly priced options.  I am no lottery winner and my free time is dwindling.  I need help to make decisions, not a mob to follow.

Kevin is there first and foremost to have fun.  Kev could have that fun and leave the rest of us to rot.  Instead, he grinds away feeding the RetroBlast content monster to provide a little knowledge for newbies and oscar's alike. 

He does it for the community.  The exchanging of ideas with different people that have disparate backgrounds, but are all drawn like moths to the same pixelated flames. 

And god forbid he does it for the occasional freebie keeper and I do mean occasional.  He gives the vast majority away to contibuting reviewers and contest winners or reviews items and sends them back from whence they came. He laid out his ad revenue, for the effort, he could make more at Mickey Dees.  I pray that Sony calls him one day and drops a wicked ad campaign on him and he retires in a sunny paradise.

Like I said, Kev is there for the fun and that's what this whole hobby is about.  When that CRT crackles, the marquee blinks on, and you hear the hard drive start to spin, you know it's fun time.  You know it's arcadetime.  You know it's mame time.  You know from the first zap to the last fanfare, you can be transported back to a period in your life when the whole world was before you and everything was possible.  A time when a few bucks at an arcade, a sony walkman on your hip, and a few friends to 1up for the best score, was all you needed while you found your way through the maze of youth.  Life was good. 

Thank heaven there are people like Kevin at RetroBlast, Saint - our BYOAC host, Oscar - the resident "gizmo", Randy T at http://www.groovygamegear.com, Lucid, Nannu (builder of the oldest DIY arcade cabinet so far), 1UP, Matty@playpinball.net, Bob Roberts, Barrie at OneSwitch, Videotopia, the folks at Mameworld, the MAME Devs, and all the others I am regretfully too tired to remember that make this hobby an absolute blast back to the past.

Lastly, Eugene Jarvis should be canonized in the Church of Video Games.

James at RetroBlast Dot Com

[ray_slup]

yea what he said

[IntruderAlert]

I think everyone agreed that Kev's a great guy
..thus the title change

[Crazy Cooter]

Well I have been concentrating on other things for a while...

Since then he has made the decision to review UC items.

[KevSteele]

If Kevin didn't review Fooley's crap, he wouldn't be dictating anything.

[MrTroy]

Oooh Can I write reviews at Retro Blast? I want a Troyd at retroblast dot com email addy.

[u_rebelscum]

Under this comparison, I don't think anyone here can say that the dog will never bite again.  Why then are we supporting the dog and trying to keep him around?  Let's get rid of the dog.  Stop petting him, stop feeding him, just stop dealing with him at all.  Then he goes away...  Otherwise we're just waiting to get bit (again & again & again & again).

Cooter, you seem like a logical person.  Since he bit us first while we were ignoring him in the first place[/a], why would ignoring him now stop him from bitting again?   It won't work (again).  Two ways to get rid of a dog: shoot 'em, or give 'em to a caring person the next county over.  Ignoring is not shooting, it's more like temping 'em to try to grab you attention (such as by bitting, again).


I'm with 1hookedspacecadet.  If foley lets Kev give an unrestricted review (ie: without threats for posting the truth), Kev should review the mother------.  [shrug]  Not that I'll buy one, but information is power.

[Tiger-Heli]

Somewhat, I agree with Crazy Cooter's comments, but I am see a parallel with my pending review of the KB16 encoder.

The review will be factual and actually will be helpful to users, but it will also highly much of the misinformation being put out about the product.

On the one hand, I hate to write it, b/c it gives the product some more publicity and legitimacy.  On the other hand, if I don't people will keep buying them on FleaBay b/c no one is around to warn them away.

And again, I also realize that thanks to Kevin's generosity, I didn't receive the unit from Mattp, so all I really have to worry about would be any possible libelous statements I might make.  And I thing I can walk close to that line without crossing it.

[KevSteele]

Oooh Can I write reviews at Retro Blast? I want a Troyd at retroblast dot com email addy.

Well, if you're willing to crank out the reviews like James did (before life jumped him and made off with his free time  ) I'm certainly open to giving out an email account.

Kevin

[monkeybomb]

Oooh Can I write reviews at Retro Blast? I want a Troyd at retroblast dot com email addy.

Well, if you're willing to crank out the reviews like James did (before life jumped him and made off with his free time  ) I'm certainly open to giving out an email account.

Kevin

Could I be davidrfoley@retroblast.com?

[Witchboard]

Oooh Can I write reviews at Retro Blast? I want a Troyd at retroblast dot com email addy.

Well, if you're willing to crank out the reviews like James did (before life jumped him and made off with his free time

[KevSteele]

Oooh Can I write reviews at Retro Blast? I want a Troyd at retroblast dot com email addy.

Well, if you're willing to crank out the reviews like James did (before life jumped him and made off with his free time

[Witchboard]

('course, I see the obvious joke has already been grabbed before I could finish typing this...ptooey )

Sorry for stealing your thunder, I just couldn't pass on a good rib. 

[KevSteele]

('course, I see the obvious joke has already been grabbed before I could finish typing this...ptooey )

Sorry for stealing your thunder, I just couldn't pass on a good rib.

[IntruderAlert]

so when do we get to see the trackball roundup?
are you having to build them yourself from scratch?

[KevSteele]

so when do we get to see the trackball roundup?
are you having to build them yourself from scratch?

I just got my trackball order last week, after what has to be a personal record for the longest-delayed order - I'm now getting a custom "test panel" built by MAMEroom.com to mount them all in, and I'm doing some preliminary testing. (Actually, I may not be able to mount the 4.5" one - it's practically a bowling ball! )

Trust me, I didn't expect getting everything for this roundup to take six freakin' months!

[IntruderAlert]

I've really been looking forward to it.
I hope you do a video review like you did with the spinners
And if it's not too much trouble I'd like to see how the construction designs differ on the insides
.. what type rollers and bearings are used.. etc.

[KevSteele]

I've really been looking forward to it.
I hope you do a video review like you did with the spinners
And if it's not too much trouble I'd like to see how the construction designs differ on the insides
.. what type rollers and bearings are used.. etc.

Don't worry - I'll have video, and I'll do some "deep inside the trackballs" video and photos...eww, that sounded perverted... 

Kevin

[Edgedamage]

found some pics.
Google Images

[Crazy Cooter]

Do I judge the company by the product or by the personalities?

Both.  You're promoting both when you review their stuff.  Buying products keeps the personality around.

[KevSteele]

Do I judge the company by the product or by the personalities?

Both.

[rchadd]

For everyone who hasn't already, be sure and check out the Ultracade site - it's been overhauled, and he's got a whole bunch of new stuff, such as standalone control panels, encoders, and more:

http://www.ultracade.com/accessories

hmmm....looks like Oscars going to be making some money out of it - his spinners are being using in the ultracade hammer control panel

[rchadd]

http://www.ultracade.com/news/93/ultracade8482-gets-playmeters-cover-story

Other Atari veterans include Vice President of Domestic Sales Elaine Shirley, Engineer Cris Drobny, and receptionist Evelyn Perez. "It

[romperwomb]

http://www.ultracade.com/news/93/ultracade8482-gets-playmeters-cover-story

Other Atari veterans include Vice President of Domestic Sales Elaine Shirley, Engineer Cris Drobny, and receptionist Evelyn Perez. "It

[DarkKobold]

Do I not review it because he's an a**hole?

Kevin

In short, yes.

Think about Walmart for example. They have good products at a price (usually) slightly lower than other places. If you ignore their heavy handed tactics, then go ahead and shop there. Forget the fact that they are forcing American Jobs to move overseas to make the lowest prices possible.

There is a strong movement in this community to boycott Ultracade. Ultracade may very well have a great product, which is affordable and easy to use. That obviously doesn't help the boycott.

[monkeybomb]

What the community could use is a factual account of what really happened with foley.  Forget opinion, speculation and BYOAC threads.   Get quotes from the vendors who were illegally sent C & D letters.  It is news worthy and worth an unbias summary.  It is also esential to verify and clarify the facts around the NAMCO ROM rights.  I have cocerns over the legitamacy of any license he wants to sell.  He can't sell rights to games, then tell people they need to erase them, then start a new service selling ROMs.  The story needs to be told to potential customers and we need this coming from someone who already has repsect and credibility.  And better yet, someone who already has a relationship with most of the vendors.

Let people decide for themselves if they want to support him, but with all the facts.

[Crazy Cooter]

I certainly don't think I'm promoting the person behind the product when I review a product. If the product's good, my review may be promotion for their company, but I'm not in the "personality assesment" business, except when it comes to customer support.

Hypothetical Situation: A person is a real jerk in person, berating and demeaning everyone he talks to. But he makes a fantastic product that's fairly priced and he provides fantastic support to the buyers of his product. Do I not review it because he's an a**hole?

Promoting (via review) a persons product supports that person in the industry.  And yes, if the guy is an a**hole that calls people up after selling them something and tells them to remove it because he never had a right to sell it in the first place... oh wait, that's not fantastic customer support now is it?

There's no reason to speak in hypothetical terms because this isn't a hypothetical situation.  This is the real deal.  This is a guy that has demanded money from people for things that weren't his, he's had auctions pulled on ebay over things he "claims" right too (that aren't his), and he sold Namco games when he had no right to do so.  Is this a guy that you want to help stay in this hobby?  When you review his products, you add legitimacy to his existence here.  Why do you want to do that?  Why would you want to steer people towards this guy?  Did this guy all of a sudden "go straight"?  No.  He has a continued track record of doing anything to make a buck (reference Namco incident).

I just don't understand why anyone would want to steer a newbie in his direction.  What people want to know is whether or not they might get screwed.  As far as Foley... ask someone that "bought" Namco games from him and then had to remove them from their machine.

I've spoke directly with Namco regarding Foley, I've spoke directly with some printers regarding Foley and I've spoke directly with some of the cabinet kit guys regarding Foley.  They are good people with a true interest in where this hobby is going.  Foley is trying to drive them out.  For every dollar you encourage to be spent on Foley's stuff, part of that goes to push the other guys out.  Where does everyone think the money for drafting the C&D letters came from?  Where did the money for the R&D of his latest project come from?  It came from the people that bought an Ultracade system and had to delete the Namco games on it.  By reviewing Ultracade products, you are encouraging the business practices of the company and the people behind it.

Buy Walmart and they will continue to do what they do.  Buy Ultracade and they will continue doing what they are.  Since reviews are essentially commercial advertisements (that's why the stuff is mostly given for free), just stop being a commercial for a company (Ultracade) that is trying everything it can to run the people that actually care about the hobby out of it.

[KevSteele]

What the community could use is a factual account of what really happened with foley.

[Crazy Cooter]

I think that would be a good idea, I know another website (which will remain nameless ) that was going to do it, but they dopped it when the MAME TM was switched.

[RetroJames]

CC?

Why don't YOU write the article?

[Tiger-Heli]

How many printers or cabinet makers have received a C&D from Nintendo, Namco, Capcom or any of the others?  None (that I know of).  It's only Foley making waves.  Take the challenge and find out why.  I've already spent hours & hours looking into it and have reached my own conclusion, I'd like to see if there's something in my rant that I'm overlooking.

Namco has hammered some individuals pretty hard.  There was I guy that made his own repro pac-man artwork and NAMCO forced him to take down his website after (2bitscore, I think) complained about it.

[Crazy Cooter]

CC?

Why don't YOU write the article?

Because I can't stand the guy and would never be able to present it without being biased.   Besides, Foley & I aren't exactly on speaking terms.  If I asked him what time it was, he wouldn't answer.

Any ideas who it was that had their site pulled?

[Tiger-Heli]

Any ideas who it was that had their site pulled?

Yep.

(You've got PM).