SPACE INVADERS DELUXE: To restore or MAME?

[AlanS17]

Along while back, I bought a Space Invaders Deluxe for $150 from a guy here, locally in the DFW area. It had been owned by his family for the life of the machine. It's neve seen a day in an arcade, and they tried to take good care of it.

However, this is where the problem comes in. They meddled in something they shouldn't have. Instead of just keeping the outside clean, they semi-regularly cleaned out the inside as well. This might be fine for people that know what they're doing, but these people didn't. In the process, they blew out the monitor.

[AlanS17]

OH! Here's the pictures...

They look blurry but they were taken on a camera phone. I assure you the cabinet is nearly perfect, and the sideart is painted so it would be a snap to touch up.

[AlanS17]

Ok, it's confirmed! MAME has switches "flipx" and "flipy" . I'm leaning more towards MAME now. This should be a snap!

[Dire Radiant]

Since it's in such good condition it seems a pity not to go with the restore option but as long as you don't start drilling holes I can't see any problem with using it for MAME. I mean lets face it SI Deluxe isn't exactly the world's prettiest cab.

[RayB]

No no no no no!

A rare flawless home-owned cab for ONLY $150 and you want to MAME it?!
NOOOOOOOOO!

[AlanS17]

Now don't go jumping the gun. I won't be damaging it. I'll be doing nothing permanent. I won't be throwing anything away.

Because it is as clean as it is, it would be a snap to MAME, and then restore later. Heck, this thing still has the serial number on a piece of paper stapled to the inside!

The only thing I'd have to replace would be the control panel... Hmmm... MAME Invaders Deluxe.

[grueinthebox]

Being that SI Deluxe uses a B&W monitor, and isn't JAMMA, it would seem like the modifications necessary to MAME it would be fairly extensive...  Color monitor, new wiring, new CP - basically gutting the cabinet (or redoing everything in parallel with what's there).  Unless, of course, you build a custom "J-Pac style" adapter to plug into the existing harness and just set it up to play the few B&W games in MAME - which I can't really imagine being worth the effort...  The changes could be done in such a way as to be reversible, but not easily reversible.

That said, it's your cabinet - do with it what you want.  Personally, with the condition it sounds like it's in, I'd think it would be way cooler to have as an extremely nice original example than just another MAME cabinet.

Out of curiousity, is the replacement monitor you ordered the same model as the existing one?  If so, you could always recap the replacement, then swap in the (presumably) burn-in-free tube from the original...

[mahuti]

Just sell it as is to someone on alt... whatever... double your money.

[AlanS17]

They are the same model, but both have burn-in.

The inners working of this machine are incredibly simple, though. That's what makes converting so easy.

It's not a JAMMA game so re-wiring would be necessary. I can do that in parallel with the existing wiring, though.

Hey! Maybe I should paint the sides yellow and put a Street Fighter 2 board in it! j/k j/k

[spriggy]

No no no no no!

A rare flawless home-owned cab for ONLY $150 and you want to MAME it?!
NOOOOOOOOO!

Dito.  Restore.  Plenty of other cheap to free cabs out there to mame!

[Thenasty]

to bad your to far away. I would give you $150 for the machine and a Cabinet to MAME 

[AlanS17]

to bad your to far away. I would give you $150 for the machine and a Cabinet to MAME

[JoyMonkey]

Restore it, auction it, then laugh all the way to the bank (or your nearest bar).

How exactly did they 'blow' the monitor? Could be an easy fix.

[AlanS17]

Regardless of what I do to it, I'm keeping it. I like it too much.

They disconnected the neckboard to clean it, but accidentally rotated the pins when he inserted it back in. somehow shortd it out or something. It's really hard for me to explain...

[TOK]

Restore it. Space Invaders and Asteroids cabs look stupid with joysticks on them.

[DaveDog]

Restore it please!

Mame something else.  Its in way too good condition not to restore it.

[AlanS17]

Restore it. Space Invaders and Asteroids cabs look stupid with joysticks on them.

I hadn't thought about that. That's a very good point.

[AlanS17]

If I can't find a decent monitor, how bad would it be to put in a MAME PC that plays Space Invaders Deluxe?

[menace]

When i came across a gutted one I pondered this very question.  So I watched ebay for awhile to see what a nicely restored SI deluxe was worth--max selling price was 200 or thereabouts.  In my case I had no boards, monitor and most of the interior artwork was gone as was the control panel so it was an easy decision.  But if you are looking to make money on this project make sure you take a hard look at it first.  I'm not saying don't do it if you won't make money, just make sure you are restoring it cause you want to and would enjoy doing it and not because you could make some money off of it.

[AlanS17]

Unlike my other machines, I'm not restoring this one to sell it. I'm likely keeping this one. Whether I were to restore it or MAME it, I'd likely be keeping it for myself.

I wouldn't dream of selling this thing if I were to MAME it. Then it would never be restored. If I were to restore it myself, though, I might be persuaded to part with it. However, I realize this game won't fetch much money. I'm not going to make much on it if I were to sell it so I have little incentive to do so.

I won't ever sell this machine unless it had been fully restored by me, personally. I have a full respect for the classics, and won't ever make a change that I can't correct.

[JoyMonkey]

If I can't find a decent monitor, how bad would it be to put in a MAME PC that plays Space Invaders Deluxe?

If the PCB is intact, replacing it with a computer seems kind of pointless.

[AlanS17]

If I can't find a decent monitor, how bad would it be to put in a MAME PC that plays Space Invaders Deluxe?

If the PCB is intact, replacing it with a computer seems kind of pointless.

...except for the fact that I have a readily available universal mount SVGA monitor.

[JoyMonkey]

If I can't find a decent monitor, how bad would it be to put in a MAME PC that plays Space Invaders Deluxe?

If the PCB is intact, replacing it with a computer seems kind of pointless.

...except for the fact that I have a readily available universal mount SVGA monitor.

Oh yeah, that would make sense.

I still say you should just have the monitor repaired (or replace it with another arcade monitor). Have you posted in the Monitor forum about it?

[AlanS17]

The original owner had the monitor checked out by a professional and he couldn't fix it. That's why he sold it. I just recently bought a replacement on Ebay, but it's in bad condition. I haven't gotten it yet, but I'm expecting it to be bad.

The question whether I can get it fixed up or not. If I spend any more money on it, I'll have spent more on monitors than on the machine, itself. I figure the thing is worth about $400 - $450 in perfect condition. If I don't spend over that much I should still be ok.

[Lilwolf]

btw, GREAT looking art on that thing!

I'm jealous all around!  Wish I had to worry about maming something so beautiful!

If the monitor is trashed.  You can still mame it without any damage.  Just buy a new 19" color CRT to replace it...

But if you do.  You have to have restoring it as your ultimate goal. 

The wiring will be the hardest because its not jamma.  And it probably shouldn't ever be.  So you would really want double wiring.  And probably create a new control panel for mame thats swapped out.

I would say fix it up and sell it.  You should be able to get 300-400 easy. 

[SirPeale]

If you can't find a working black and white monitor, anywhere, you've got to be looking in the wrong places.

What is the make and model of the monitor?

[AlanS17]

If you can't find a working black and white monitor, anywhere, you've got to be looking in the wrong places.

What is the make and model of the monitor?

I don't know the make/model. I just search around for a "Space Invaders monitor". It's black and white, but it seem unique. It's got no monitor frame. The tube and chssis are independent, and wires are run between them. The chassis for the thing is built onto this huge metal board that's mounted to a wooden shelf inside suspended inside the machine. The tube is suspended, facing up, above it - not by mounts, but directly by the bolt holes in the four corners.

Lemme find a link for the auction I won on Ebay so you can see this whacky chassis... (Note the the onitor I bought is already damaged.)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6173517902&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1

[RayB]

Doesn't the monitor mount have a color overlay in front of it? And isn't the image reflected onto some artwork? Every game you'd play would be overlayed on a moon image.

And you say a "professional" looked at the monitor, but what kind of professional?If they called a TV repair guy, then of course he couldn't fix it. Even arcade game repair guys, used to working on modern machines won't have the resources to fix old stuff like this. You have to go to the "niche" classic repair people who know where to get the old parts and stuff.

My concern is you take all the parts out, put them away and one day lose some of them, damage them or whatever. Home-owned machines are RARE. What's wrong with restoring this and then making a 2nd MAME cab? Freebie cabs are available everywhere.

Here's a monitor chassis for parts: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13718&item=6177108506&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

This SI sold for only $250, but that's what happens when you only offer "local pickup": http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13716&item=6173918190&rd=1

This one sold for $695: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13716&item=6173937811&rd=1

[SirPeale]

That's good as it has the overlay.  I think most monitors that old are going to have burn.

If you have trouble with it, a quick post in RGVAC would probably net you a working monitor close by.  In fact, I'm suprised you didn't try there first.

[AlanS17]

The monitor does have a color film overlay (which I still have). It's reflected onto a 2-way mirror so that you see the image and artwork behind it.

I don't know who this "professional" was that checked it out.

I realize how rare this thing is. That's why I'm trying to be careful with it. Finding a good monitor would be ideal, but it's been pretty hard to do.

[menace]

Found my old service manual from a SI deluxe--monitor is M5000-155 or m7000-155 made by motorola if thats of any help to you.  I'm sure you could talk me out of this manual too if you needed it as i don't have that machine anymore...

[AlanS17]

Found my old service manual from a SI deluxe--monitor is M5000-155 or m7000-155 made by motorola if thats of any help to you.

[menace]

Schematics only and a parts list--best you can hope for i guess considering its age.  Pm me your adress if you want it.

[paigeoliver]

I have given away/(tossed in with deals) 3 working black and white monitors this year alone. They aren't all that hard to find, and black and white TV sets take the same signal.

[AlanS17]

I have given away/(tossed in with deals) 3 working black and white monitors this year alone. They aren't all that hard to find, and black and white TV sets take the same signal.

We'd talked about a deal concerning a B/W months ago for this very purpose, but you said all you had was 21" monitors.

[paigeoliver]

I have given away/(tossed in with deals) 3 working black and white monitors this year alone. They aren't all that hard to find, and black and white TV sets take the same signal.

We'd talked about a deal concerning a B/W months ago for this very purpose, but you said all you had was 21" monitors.

23" ones yes. They are all gone now. I have had 19" ones in the past, but I don't have any at the moment (except for the one in my Drop Zone 4, which sort of goes with the machine).

[Kev-in DFW]

Alan,  GOOD NEWS, I have a working Street Fighter II board for your cab AND I am in Dallas.  I will also throw in enough Krylon to paint over those stupid monsters on the side!  Deal?

J/K, okay, keep the cab intact, maybe pull the CP and recreate one in wood with the needed hardware. MAME that bad boy and be ready to convert it back if you should decide to sell.  The sideart is the keeper, but play that thing like mad and enjoy it!

That's my vote!

[Stingray]

I own an original Space Invaders cocktail (mine still has the serial number stapled  inside too). If, god forbid, it should ever stop working, I would repair it regardless of cost. I'd sooner tear out my eyes with a rusty fondue fork than MAME it.

-S

[SirPeale]

I have to admit, if you Mame that, I'll lose *all* respect for you.

[AlanS17]

I have to admit, if you Mame that, I'll lose *all* respect for you.

*sniffles* You respect me? *sniffles* j/k

I'm trying hard to restore it. That's my goal. I emailed the dude I bought the monitor from on Ebay last night, and he hasn't even shipped the thing yet! It's been 4 or 5 days already, and I paid him immediately with PayPal. Well I'm not leaving negative feedback, but he can forget about any positive feedback, too. You don't get between a guy and his arcade resotrations.

[HoopstarsGarage]

Don't suppose you want to take some meaurements of the cabinet for me?  ..and maybe Jakobud might like them too

[rohan]

IMO, MAME it the right way.  None of the art should be touched, that includes the backdrop.  Don't do anything you can't undo.  That still leaves several games that could be played properly, though.  That's quite a classic, even if it was pretty common.

[IntruderAlert]

that thing's AWESOME Alan!!!
just hold out for a good monitor at a decent price
one will come along eventually

[Apollo]

Awesomely cool cab, mame it. Keep everything intact, leave the PCB inside unconnected even, put a T-stick plus red ball top and 2 buttons on the CP with a colour monitor and set it up for classic verticals, Galaxian, Scramble, Phoenix, 1942 etc.
That thing is the coolest but who the hell plays Space Invaders these days?
Everything you do will be totally reversible very easily and you'll have a rockin cab until you sell it ( personally I would never sell it ).

[Stingray]

That thing is the coolest but who the hell plays Space Invaders these days?

I do.



-S

[AlanS17]

Don't suppose you want to take some meaurements of the cabinet for me?

[AlanS17]

Well I'm STILL waiting on that replacement monitor. That dude finally sent it out just yesterday...

We'll see what happens.

[ChadTower]

I don't get the difficulty here.  The only difference between a 21" and 23" monitors is the mount.  Just alter the mount enough to put in a 21", if that's all you can find.  I don't think anyone would fault you for changing the mounting hardware a little bit if it means the difference between MAME and restoration.

[IntruderAlert]

You couldn't mount a mirror in the cabinet without a mirror, though. The dimensions of the cabinet prevent it.

[AlanS17]

LOL my bad. I fixed the above post. My brain was going faster than my fingers.

[AlanS17]

I don't get the difficulty here.

[ChadTower]

Ah, rereading, Drew said he had sold 23" monitors, you mistakenly said 21", apparently.

So, you've been talking all this time about the inability to find a 19" b/w monitor?  Damn, man, those are easy to get.  Hell, just take a 19" b/w tv and put it in there, that's all those really old monitors are...

[AlanS17]

Bad news on the restoration front, people. I got that new monitor and hooked it up. Still nothing. I'm beginning to think the problem isn't even the monitor. When I plug it in, the lights come on inside, but I'm not getting sound or picture. However, I have the feeling the speaker is getting power cuz it makes a popping sound when I unplug it. So I'm starting wonder if the problem isn't the game board.

Everything in there is cosmetically intact and nice and clean, but that doesn't mean it's working. The "genius" that owned this thing before me cleaned it regularly on the inside. Lord only knows what he might have done to it...

This thing might begetting MAMEd after all...

[HoopstarsGarage]

..and when you are MAMEing it.. you could take some mearuements too 


But seriously, if you MAME it, atleast do it in such a way that it can be reversed should you ever get a working game board and/or monitor..

[IntruderAlert]

I read somewhere that you should check the 10 UF electrolytic capacitors on the main
board, right beside where the daughter board plugs in

There's like 4 of them or something

If that's all it is it'll be a cheap fix

[AlanS17]

I read somewhere that you should check the 10 UF electrolytic capacitors on the main
board, right beside where the daughter board plugs in

There's like 4 of them or something

If that's all it is it'll be a cheap fix

Really! Hmmm... and what would be the symptoms of bad caps? Would it be total system shutdown? I might just have to look into that...

How do I test a capacitor, though?

[IntruderAlert]

I'm no expert but here's a helpful page:
http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/captest.htm

[IntruderAlert]

It was on one of the newsgroups

Rick Adair wrote in message <3859d...@news.desupernet.net>...
>Need some info on vid problem with SID. The video started getting garbled as
>if it was losing sync. Then all of a sudden the vid just stop. I cleaned all
>connectors and replaced all the fuses. No Luck. It almost seems like the
>video isn't getting power. the game works other wise. I can coin up and get
>sound and control just no video. Any help would be greatly appreciated..

Sounds like you've lost the 10uF cap near the edge connector
on the motherboard.

Alex
http://home.neo.lrun.com/ayeckle/
ayeck...@neo.lrun.com (Play)
yeck...@diebold.com (Work)

The guy replaced the caps but it didn't fix his problem.
Worth a try though I guess.
Just be careful and don't shock yourself

[AlanS17]

Well it looks like that guy still had sound. I don't think I'm getting sound.

[IntruderAlert]

You don't suppose it could simply be that someone flipped the dipswitches when "cleaning" do ya'?

[AlanS17]

There's a set of dipswitches, but none of their settings should affect whether the game actually works or not. They affect aspects of the game (like upright vs cocktail), but nothing like whether it works or not.

[IntruderAlert]

I'm still looking around
I found this if you need it:
http://pdf.textfiles.com/arcade/manuals/sideluxe.pdf

[AlanS17]

Thank you very much. I'm about out of ideas on this thing. It makes me want to rip my hair out.

[IntruderAlert]

The manual mentions a safety switch you have to pull out to restore power to the monitor
there's also some fuses on the transformer board

[AlanS17]

Well I checked the fuses on the transformer board. They look brand new. So do the fuses in the monitor chassis.

I'll have to have a look into that safety switch, though...

I'm expecting to be upset either way, though. If it's something simple like that then maybe I just wasted $110 on a new monitor. And if the monitor isn't the problem at all then I still wasted $110 on a new monitor. 

[IntruderAlert]

well you can always re-ebay the monitor
and if it raises your spirits any check this out:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13716&item=6180350878

[Stingray]

Snipped this from a disscussion on another board. Not sure if this applies to you or not, but thought I'd pass it along:

I had a Midway one a few years back. Elektronforge.com rebuilt the boards and PS for me. It worked for 20 minutes and burned out the board. If you guys have a Midway version.........get your voltmeter and test of -5 Volts on the pcb!!! It needs it or it takes out board parts in a VERY short time. My wiring was dirty, and it took its toll that quicky. I am guessing thats what cooked it the first time, too.

-S

[AlanS17]

Snipped this from a disscussion on another board. Not sure if this applies to you or not, but thought I'd pass it along:

I had a Midway one a few years back. Elektronforge.com rebuilt the boards and PS for me. It worked for 20 minutes and burned out the board. If you guys have a Midway version.........get your voltmeter and test of -5 Volts on the pcb!!! It needs it or it takes out board parts in a VERY short time. My wiring was dirty, and it took its toll that quicky. I am guessing thats what cooked it the first time, too.

-S

I can certainly check it out. I need a voltmeter, anyways. I need to see what parts of that machine are even getting power. I'm working blind.

[ChadTower]

Uh, did you look at the fuses or did you actually test them for continuity?  You can't test a fuse by looking at it.  Ever.

Have you done the basic things yet, like tested the outputs on each of the power supply tabs?  Are you even sure you're getting proper power to the PCB and monitor?

[SirPeale]

I can certainly check it out. I need a voltmeter, anyways. I need to see what parts of that machine are even getting power. I'm working blind.

I'm going to do some yelling now.

WHAT ARE YOU EVEN DOING POSTING, WITHOUT HAVING PROPER TESTING EQUIPMENT?!?

I don't want another post from you in this thread until you have - AT MINIMUM - a multimeter.  They're dead cheap.  Get a digital one.  There's one @ Radio Shack that folds up very small, it has a continuity checker, it's like $20 I think.  Chad and I have the same one.

[ChadTower]

This is the one Peale is talking about.

It's $30, I did get it for $20 when it was on sale, though.

You could definitely get a better one, cheaper, from MCM or some other place if you were patient enough to order rather than buy at a store.

You can go no further with your testing without a multimeter.

[AlanS17]

Uh, did you look at the fuses or did you actually test them for continuity?

[AlanS17]

Then it's decided. I'm stopping at Radio Shack on the way home today. I've got one right by the house.

[ChadTower]

Good.  Do you know how to use it?  Do you know how to test a power supply?  You really want to do some reading before you just start poking at electrical contacts.

What is your current skill level?

[AlanS17]

Good.

[ChadTower]

Read this.  All of it.

[AlanS17]

Read this.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, it will take a while.  Some you can skim, others you should read 4-5 times.  I can't tell you how many hours I've spent reading Randy Fromm's stuff.  It's awesome.

[AlanS17]

Well I bought a multimeter on the way home, opened it up, and...

NO BATTERIES!!! 

I guess I can't really blame anyone but myself, but I need daylight to work, and I have no daylight left. Maybe tomorrow...

[IntruderAlert]

maybe you should buy a lamp on your next shopping trip

[ChadTower]

A worklamp is a necessity anyway... just get a cheapo desk lamp with a rubber tipped clamp, the type you'd get for a dorm room.  That's what I use, had it since I bought it for my dorm room in 1998.

You bought the Radio Shack DMM and it didn't come with batteries?  Return it, that's used, it comes with batteries.  I don't remember if they were in the package or the DMM itself, but it definitely came with batteries.

[RayB]

That Randy Fromm link has a tutorial on using a multimeter. Print it out and follow along...  :-)

[ChadTower]

Actually, he should read it 3x, then print it out and follow along.  That's one of the parts he wants to know thoroughly.

[AlanS17]

Well I just have so many machines in my garage that it's like a maze. The light doesn't pass around very well. I need to open up the garage door to get enough light in there to work on the machines in the corners.

[ChadTower]

How many of those are working?  With that many machines, you need to pretty much master the entire contents of Fromm's material.  You should get the videos too, they are a valuable complement to the written material.

[AlanS17]

I'd say about half (6 or so) are working. However, only about 3 of those are pretty enough to sell right now.

How expensive are these videos?

[ChadTower]

Not cheap... I wouldn't buy ALL of them, but some are sure worth the money.  If you have any vector games, the XY monitor repair video is sure worth it...

[AlanS17]

Nope, no XY games. The majority are JAMMA standard cabs with 19" monitors (at least they are now that they've been converted) that used to actually be good classic games before they were mutilated. Of course, so are probably more work than they're worth to fix.

[AlanS17]

Well a guy named Pat Danis came over today to check out my monitors. They've been misbehaving and he does repairs.

When he got there, though, he noticed my SID. I explained my situation to him and he took a quick look inside. He noticed that the wire harness is all jacked up. It looks like at least one 5v line was cut at the harness. There might be more problems, but that's a start. I need to check it against that schematic in the pdf owner's manual.

Hopefully we found the problem!

[ChadTower]

If that is the case, either get a new harness or completely replace the connectors, all the way down to a new set of pins.  Also consdier retinning or reconditioning the edge connectors.

[dweebs0r]

Restore it. Space Invaders and Asteroids cabs look stupid with joysticks on them.

I have to disagree at the expense of offending the purists who want to see the thing restored.

It would make a great looking Mame cabinet.



Here is a link to a great Mamed SI cab thats a good example (its pictured above).

And speaking for myself here, sometimes money comes into play and it comes down to best bang for the buck.  As long as you dont make any permanant changes, I say go for the Mame route if its better for your budget.

JMHO,
-Dweebs

[ChadTower]

That thing looks all kinds of bastardized.  It is not attractive.