Joining battens and mdf problems...sigh

[Homietheclown]

So I am still in the main building phase of the cab. I've done a fairly (using that word loosely) good job cutting out the pieces. Connecting pieces together is amazing hard to make them look flush. I have no router table or plane or joiner.

Anyway I've been dealing with an ongoing problem with screwing the pine battens into the mdf. Check out the picture.



This is from inside the cab. I'm screwing from the inside out. So basically I have these 2 inch screw that go through the 1.5 inch pine battens and then 1/2" into the 5/8" mdf. Every time it does that, the battens pieces and MDF separate unless I can get a clamp on them. Most of the time I can't get a clamp on the pieces like the picture. In the picture I was able to get the two pieces screwed together with hardly any gap after continually backing out the screws, screwing back in until there was a gap and repeating the process 5-6 times.

The black arrows represent where the gap usually forms and the grey arrows are the screws. I am using a countersunk drill bit but its only a inch long. It doesn't even go all the way through the pine batten (1.5 inch batten)

Surely there is got to be a better way?

[HaRuMaN]

You need a longer drill bit. 

[Homietheclown]

I've never used counter sunk drill bits before. So is there a rule?  If I am using 2 inch wood screws should my counter bits be also 2 inches?

[bfauska]

If the number size of the screw and bit match and the bit is tapered then my understanding is that you would drill the full depth. I haven't used them much but that's the way I understand it.

[rabidpuppy]

I think that your drill bit may be too small, so the pilot hole you are drilling is too small for your screw.

I don't really check sizes but do an ocular patdown of the drill bit against the screw, making sure the bit is around the same size of the shank of the screw (depending how big the thread is too I guess).   Use a test piece.

If you can't clamp, put some weight on the piece, kneel on it, whatever.

Don't back out the screw from MDF, you will just make a loose hole.   You put a screw in MDF once and that's it pretty much, it's not timber.

(My opinions only).

[lamprey]

If it were me, I'd make my pilot hole in the MDF and screw from the outside into the baton. That way it "sinches" up against the MDF. I'd be concerned about going the other way of having the MDF "blow-out" when trying to get the screws tight.

But, if you want to keep going the way you are going, as others have mentioned, make sure your pilot hole is big enough. You don't really need the screw to grab into the baton, so the hole can be big enough to let the screw slide through, then it's just digging into the MDF and holding the baton to the MDF.

[bfauska]

You don't really need the screw to grab into the baton, so the hole can be big enough to let the screw slide through, then it's just digging into the MDF and holding the baton to the MDF.

This is actually a great point. You would lose almost nothing by drilling the hole in the batten slightly bigger than the screw, then it won't push away as the screw starts to go into the MDF. A screw is really just a clamp in the end and the important parts are the head and the material being screwed into, the material being screwed through is the thing being clamped.

[wp34]

If it were me, I'd make my pilot hole in the MDF and screw from the outside into the baton. That way it "sinches" up against the MDF. I'd be concerned about going the other way of having the MDF "blow-out" when trying to get the screws tight.

But, if you want to keep going the way you are going, as others have mentioned, make sure your pilot hole is big enough. You don't really need the screw to grab into the baton, so the hole can be big enough to let the screw slide through, then it's just digging into the MDF and holding the baton to the MDF.

I would agree with this.  Making the pilot hold on the batten bigger should help.

If you can't clamp on the batten you could also temporarily screw another smaller board down beside your batten to try and help keep in from creeping.

You might want to use some wood glue if you are going to screw from the inside out.  That will help hold the batten in place should there ever be any issue with the screws down the road.

[RetroArcadePro]

I hate screwing into MDF. Make sure you are using screws with a lot of grab. Also, like someone else mentioned it would be better to screw from the outside in as the screw will get a much better grab on the pine than the mdf. Also make sure you are using the right size drill bit for the screw, most label it on the box.

Biggest problem is you are only trying to go 1/2" into the MDF, which means you are trying to get it to grab with the tip of the screw which generally doesn't have much hold until you get at least 1/2" or more up the screw.

[Slippyblade]

I don't use screws on my battens.  I have a brad nailer that uses 18 gauge brad nails.  Smear some wood glue onto the battens, position, tack down with the brads.  The glue bond is stronger than any screw connection into MDF anyway.

[RetroArcadePro]

I don't use screws on my battens.  I have a brad nailer that uses 18 gauge brad nails.  Smear some wood glue onto the battens, position, tack down with the brads.  The glue bond is stronger than any screw connection into MDF anyway.

This is the route I would go if you can get access to a nail gun.

[rabidpuppy]

...  The glue bond is stronger than any screw connection into MDF anyway.

^ This!  I am generally a glue'n'screw guy.  The first thing I built years ago I only screwed together initially, thinking I would need to disassemble later or test it first, and then after a break in the project I forget about this and ended up using glue on a final piece so it couldn't be taken apart, so it had less than perfect joins and a bit of a wobble.

My last project I used dado/slot/trench joins, glued together with MDF Glue.  It let me cut down on battens/braces/supports, and gave me a solid seamless look.  And it is like a rock.  Which is what you would need to break it.

[Homietheclown]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I used another drill bit to dig a longer pilot hole. I will glue the battens in place once everything is finalized. So far after drilling longer pilot holes, the pieces don't seem to be separating so badly when I screw them together.

[sleong]

Were you using course or fine thread screws?  That usually also makes a difference in how the screw grabs the material.

[Homietheclown]

Were you using course or fine thread screws?  That usually also makes a difference in how the screw grabs the material.

They are labeled multi-use screws. I would classify them as course thread. Is course good or bad heh.

[Slippyblade]

Course is good.  MDF is so granular that it would just clog up fine thread and turn the screw into a dowel.

[devmod]

I cut all pieces for a bartop I am working on. I used 12mm MDF and I plan to cut up some battens to put it all together.

Do you guys glue first and then add screws later when dry? or drill pilot hole with pieces in place but no glue yet?

I am not sure how would I make it align while drilling from the outside since I won't see the batten... It would be easy to not miss on a big arcade, but I would be using 2cmx2cm battens.

I was wondering if glue and battens would be enough to keep a bartop standing on it's own without screws?

[Slippyblade]

Honestly, don't screw.

Seriously.  When using MDF, if you are using a good quality wood glue, then the glue bond will actually be stronger than screws.  I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but that's the fact of it.  When I build, I spread glue on the battens and put them in position, then I use a brad nailer (a brad is basically a nail about as thin as a staple) to tack the batten into position.  If you don't have access to brads then use a clamp to hold till the glue dries.

[JoeStrout]

Stupid question: do you drive these brads in from the inside (batten side) or outside (cabinet panel)?

[Slippyblade]

Inside.  So make sure the brads you are using aren't long enough to poke all the way through.

[baranbaran]

that is agood post by you ....well done

[Vigo]

Late to the party, but I want to mention when screwing, using a half shank screw is important to force the batten towards the side panel, rather than splitting them apart. No need to drill different size pilot holes.

[dkersten]

I realize this is an older thread, but wanted to throw my 2 cents in.

With "oval head" screws (like the one posted in Vigo's thread), the length of the screw is measured from the tip to the top of the head (total length).  With "pan head" screws (where the head is round and the part of the head on the screw side is flat) the length is measured from the flat base of the head to the tip of the screw.  Pan heads are not meant to be flush (countersunk), and oval heads are.  With 5/8 mdf drilling 1/2" in, you are tempting fate and risking the screw coming through the other side if you use oval head screws and countersink them.  So be careful with this part.

The advice about brad nails and glue is very solid advice.  Screws are slow, awkward, and leave you at risk of splitting the battens.  glue and nail with brad nails if you have a nailer available.  If not, then predrill and screw.  #8 screws should be predrilled with a 1/8" drill bit or maybe 7/64".  Most generic wood screws are #8.  #6 is pretty thin, and #10 will look pretty thick. 

[Dataman]

I agree with the observation that 5/8" MDF (Even with a laminate cover) leaves very little room for counter sinking.
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I build cabinets with 3/4" MDF (Not totally true - just keep reading or skip to **).  I laminate the outside of my cabinets and glue cabinet cloth to the inside.  I don't really need to put the hardware cloth in - I just do.  Looks better.
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I use Brackets - for a 24 9/16" wide cabinet (basically with a 23" wide control panel)  I use 2" wide strips of sheet 30 1/2" long ,  I Drill a 1/2" hole centered at the 7/8" Mark - the 2 3/8" Point,  I do the same at both ends of the metal strip. ( I remove the metal between to form a screw slot - not really important - but handy when you see that I use four brackets at the bottom - Two to hold the cabinet sides to the base, and one bracket to hold the rear panel and another to hold the front kick plate).  Now I drill one 5/16" hole in the center of the metal strip, then I drill one at the 4.75" Point and the 12" point ( I do the same from each end of the metal strip, then remove the metal from the 4.75" point to the 12" point at each end).  These /15" slots provide a point to use a castle head screw that is 11/16" long   (the one with a big flat washer type ring) The actual screw length - or a 5/8" long screw - just remember the bracket is 1/16" to 3/32" thick.   This allows me to use castle head screws to physically bond the brackets to the 1/2" panels after I get all the 3/8" Carriage bolts tightened up.  This results in a very tight cabinet.
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I bend 90 degrees at the 3.25" mark (that is 3 1/4") and the 26.50" mark ( the sheet metal is 1/16" thick so when bent it takes up 3/23" of the metal x 2 - 6/32 less length or 3/16" - Just make sure your bracket is 23 1/16 long (this puts the outside panels 23 1/16" apart - hence a 24 9/16" wide cabinet.)..
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**
When I use a 5/8" MDF Panel I laminate a 3/16" luan panel to the panel.  This works great if you want to stain the outside - for one customer I did five Taito Style actually Alladin Games style cabinet and stained them Dark mahogany - they looked great.
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Back to the cabinet.
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I too am concerned with sharp appearances - so I do things the "old Arcade Way"...  I use 1/2" MDF for any panel not a side panel, and also laminate the front Kick Panels (the one the Coin Door it mounted on) , I also do the same for the Cabinet Top, the Cabinet Speaker Baffle (for the u-initiated this is the upper panel above the monitor), the Upper Back Panel, and Lower Back Panel (the lower back panel is where the power entry point to the cabinet is - as is the cabinet ventilation fan ( another old arcade style).  The back door is 1/2" Plywood - since it isn't mounted but held in place by two plates that extend below the top of the rear lower cabinet panel (remember the Power entry point?).  The back door is held in-place by the 7/*' Can Lock (just like they did in the old days - only now you can buy a Cam Lock that isn't a lock at all - just a twist to secure - how cute).
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All the panels that are 1/2" thick panels (except the Back door) are recessed into the 3/4" side panels by 3/16".  This is done by routing out a channel to accept these panels into the inside of the 3?4" outer panels.  (For this you need to make a router template - basically a piece of 1/4" plywood (or in my case a few pieces of 3/8" polycarbonate that the folks at Laird Plastics gave me really cheap - like less that 1/4" plywood - because it was all scarred up and basically blemished with white spots from some chemical and extreme heat).  I use a Corner chisel to get the edges perfect (I have experimented with rounding the edges of the panels - but never liked the results.).
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The Cabinet Brackets (remember the brackets?) pull the whole thing together.  The sweet spot is that I use 3/8" Carriage bolts and Flat washers, Nylon Insert Nuts (they call them vibration proof - but just the same, they don't loosen up) and a lock washer.  The 3/8" carriage bolts hold the Outer Sides and Cabinet together at 8 Points (four points have two brackets each -since the upper rear bracket is affixed to the upper panel - remember the little castle head screws) and the upper Back Panel), the two on the bottom hold the cabinet to the bottom base and the lower front of the kick plate (cabinet front) and the lower section of the rear lower Panel (the one with the power cord input).  In the end - the slots and the 3/8" carriage bolts do a great job of keeping the panels in place and make the cabinet quite sturdy.  The castle head screws just eliminate virtually any play in respect to panels and brackets - over kill, but I believe well worth the efforts.
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Like I said - this results in a very tight cabinet when put together )assembled) and without all the fuss of glue or battens, etc. (Except the laminate contact cement or glue used to mount the cabinet cloth).
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There is also one other wonderful benefit - the whole 68" Tall cabinet ships Fed_X or UPS in fiver boxes - Sweet.
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Now, to get around FED-EX or UPS I actually build the sides only 63" tall at their peak.  Two sit flat in box #1.
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The front, Back, Top panels and Speaker Baffle are in box two (as are the 5.5" tall Bases with the two rear Caster wheels and the two Front Cabinet levelers (just the Mounting Plates -I send the ;levelers in a small parts box with all the screws and Brackets).  I send the Control Panel (Blank if warranted, Punched with populated controls and -062" Molex Pin and Socket Inter Connects, as well as the JAMMA Harness and Game Board Mounting Feet.  The JAMMA Harness is already outfitted with required .093" and .062" Pin and Socket connectors as required.  I have always liked the .093" and .062" Molex Pin and socket interconnect system... Plain and simple.
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In box four - I send the Speaker, the Marquee Lamp Assembly, the Marquee Mounting Strips (I usually use metal strips that have been formed to hold the Marquee Polycarbonate - which is one piece 5/32" and one piece 7/32" thick = a 3/8" thick Marquee when sandwiched together.).  I also send a 7/16" Thick Monitor Face Plate as well (Polycarbonate - naturally).  I also send the 10 to 12 foot power cord and a 15-Amp Switcher Power supply as well (also in box four).
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Box five is usually the Happ Pinball Style or Over-Under Coin Door.  It comes directly from Happ in a shippable box - so who am I to rebox?  What I d perform is the Kick Plate cut-out for the door style selected.  This way they just have to bolt it in.
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In the early years I toiled with pre-mounting things like speakers, Power switches, Control Panel Latches and Coin Doors - it is a logistical nightmare - and it means three more boxes to ship.  So I assume anyone can put the thing together if I provide step by step instructions (which I print out using Corel Draw (yea - it's ac ommercial - too bad they aren't paying me)...
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I have built and shipped only about thirty two of these cabinets  - 28 back in the late 1980's from my home in Warner Robbins Georgia, and four from my shop in Phoenix, Arizona to my friend in Montana (he was the one who wanted Mahogany looking cabinets - no side art, just wood.  He is happy and wants me to build more.  He "Paiid me" to come to Montana and hook everything up.  Don't know why, his handy man was more than capable - but hey - who am I to turn down a trip to Montana and stay in a 6,500 sq foot Log Cabin.
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Now he wants two MAME Cabinets, same deal - Wood Mahogany.  This time I am going to film it and make a you-tube. 
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Who knows I might just get back into cabinet making as a business instead of a profitable hobby. 
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I have built:  Atari Centiped Cabinets, Atari Crystal Castles, Ms Pac Man and Gallaga Cabinets this way.  As already mentioned. Taito Style cabinets can be easily fabricated this way too.
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I did not come up with this idea - Alladin Games (circa 1960's) did.  They modified the Taito Style cabinets to standardize arcade games in "their" numerous Arcades.  That was franchise that I would have bought into if I was in the United States back then, instead of trapesing around Eastern Turkey trying to catch Russian Missile and Nuclear Tests - another story altogether - and totally unrelated to this forum.
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Note:  I am not soliciting business - I am giving hints as to how you can build a cabinet as good or better than the originals.  But if you just want to get a cheap beat up Arcade cabinet and spend a lot of time repairing and modifying it - who am I to criticize.  I do that!  It's fun.  The problem is I can't just box it up and ship it to my friends, I have to "take it to them" and that means a road trip.  Which upsets my better half who doesn't understand why grown men play with Video Games.  (Maybe I never grew up....)  And she will never understand why I take 2-5 day road trips to take one to some one (they should come and get it if they really want it!!! But - then I wouldn't get to go on the "ROAD TRIP!!!!""").