Help! My IPac4 is haunted....

[AzureKnight]

My IPac4 is haunted, that is my current theory anyways.  I'm sure the truth is more mundane but I could use some help troubleshooting. 

When I fire up a game there are times where P3 and P4 will trigger button or joystick events for other players. It is highly sporadic but can usually be replicated within a minute or two.  Sometimes it happens within seconds of starting a game and happens a lot (every few seconds).  Other times it may happen once or twice every 3-4 minutes.

It only seems to happen with P3 and P4 especially when they hit a diagonal, it will often trigger one or more of the other player's first button.  Sometimes it will trigger a directional move.

Sometimes the button fire event will continue even after the triggering event has stopped.

For example:
P4 moves diagonally, as long as they are moving P1 and P3 will shoot.  Stop moving diagonally they keep shooting for a few seconds.

Another example:
P4 moves and P1 shoots once.

Another example:
P3 is moving and shooting and suddenly P1 moves a bit.

• This happens on multiple games (tried 5 or 6).
• The IPac light is steady green
• It does not happen the same way every time, sometimes it happens a lot, other times a bit.
• I have yet to have P1 or P2 trigger an event but they can be the "victim" of it

[li]I verified in MAME that the game settings overall and the game settings "for this game" are set to default and not overlapping (other than P2 buttons 5 and 6 being mapped to P3 up and down which seems to be standard - this is not the issue).
[/li][/list]

Setup:
=============================================================================

• 4 joysticks (default keys)
• 4 player start buttons (default keys)
• 4 coin door switches (default keys)
• P1 and P2 have 6 buttons each (default keys)
• P3 and P4 have 4 buttons each (default keys)
• P1 has a second joystick with two top fire buttons.  Joy is wired to P3 and buttons are wired to P1 button 1 and 2
• P1 button 7 was remapped in the tool to P and wired to a Pause button
• P1 button 8 was remapped in the tool to Esc and wired to an Exit button
• One ground line going out to all primary joysticks and buttons
• The other ground line goes out to the coin door and the topfire joystick

The IPac is connected to a WinXP computer via USB and there is a PS/2 keyboard connected to the IPac via the passthrough port.

===============================================================================================

Any advice on how to trouble shoot?

[dkersten]

There are 4 things I can think of.

First is to make sure that you don't have any shift functions set up.

second is to make sure caps lock isn't being triggered and changing your outputs from keypad to number keys..

Third, try remapping your P1 buttons to non-utility keys in windows.. avoid alt, control, shift, etc.

Finally, and you might want to try this first, try a different USB port, one plugged directly to your PC and not through a hub.  My ipac UIO started hitting random keystrokes when plugged into a hub.  It would even open windows and get into control panel functions while I was in the other room.  Soon as I moved it back to an internal port it stopped doing that.

[AzureKnight]

Thanks for the advice, I've been having terrible luck so far.

My shift key doesn't seem to work actually, at least I couldn't get it to work.  To avoid the coin door issues I'm having (see other thread) I tried to setup shift functions for coin 1-4 and I couldn't get it to work.  In the end I did a restore to default keys in the programming tool and gave up on shift as I don't want to use it long term anyways. 

I will try unmapping all the shift functions tonight, that is a good idea.  I'll try remapping the P1 buttons as well.

I am connected directly to the PC not a hub, but I will try switching ports.

[Malenko]

shift isn't working you say?  That's usually a tell tale sign of a switch being wired as NC instead of NO

[AzureKnight]

shift isn't working you say?  That's usually a tell tale sign of a switch being wired as NC instead of NO

Interesting.  I haven't noticed that behavior but I will certainly double check them all.  I hope that is it, that would be an easy fix.

[dkersten]

shift isn't working you say?  That's usually a tell tale sign of a switch being wired as NC instead of NO

The "shift" functions I refer to are the encoder's ability to use 2 button combos to emulate other keys, not the actual shift key emulation.  He should be able to assign ONE shift button, and when pressed ALL other "shift" functions will trigger instead of the usual function.  So if he sets his P1B6 to shift, when pressed, any other button or joystick direction will do a different command, if it is assigned.  My guess here is if he was messing with it, he didn't get the proper button assigned as the shift button, and one of the P1 buttons is shift and when it is being used, a P3 and P4 function takes over a P1 function.  Best to clear out ALL shift functions on the IPAC and make sure you don't have a shift button assigned at all. 

[notroubleclubber]

I found similar symptoms with my ipac 2. I eventually found my negatives wasn't consistent so make.sure all your button negatives are ok.

[Malenko]

shift isn't working you say?  That's usually a tell tale sign of a switch being wired as NC instead of NO

The "shift" functions I refer to are the encoder's ability to use 2 button combos to emulate other keys, not the actual shift key emulation.  He should be able to assign ONE shift button, and when pressed ALL other "shift" functions will trigger instead of the usual function.  So if he sets his P1B6 to shift, when pressed, any other button or joystick direction will do a different command, if it is assigned.  My guess here is if he was messing with it, he didn't get the proper button assigned as the shift button, and one of the P1 buttons is shift and when it is being used, a P3 and P4 function takes over a P1 function.  Best to clear out ALL shift functions on the IPAC and make sure you don't have a shift button assigned at all.

How can you argue with someone while agreeing with them? By default P1 start acts as the shift button.  If any other button is held down  then you cant shift with P1 start. I know because I had the issue I'm describing and Andy figured it out. I'm not saying its the solution to the presented problem, but its a possibility.

I found similar symptoms with my ipac 2. I eventually found my negatives wasn't consistent so make.sure all your button negatives are ok.

This is also a possibility, Im assuming by "negatives" you mean "grounds".

[dkersten]

Sorry Malenko, your reply read like you were saying the button assigned to the shift key (ie P1B4) might be wired backwards, and hence always "pressed".. I was just clarifying that I was talking about the shift function, not the key.

[PL1]

• 4 joysticks (default keys)

. . .

• P1 and P2 have 6 buttons each (default keys)
• P3 and P4 have 4 buttons each (default keys)

It doesn't explain the "haunted" behavior, but one problem that you will have is that there is overlap with some of the P2/P3 IPAC4 defaults.

MAME Player 2 Button 5-8 default keys are undefined and Player 3 directional default keys are I, K, J, and L.

Why do IPac2, IPac4, and KeyWiz use I, K, J, and L for Player 2 Button 5-8 default keys?   

Why does the IPac4 use I, K, J, and L for Player 2 Button 5-8 and Player 3 directional default keys? 

Never got an answer from Andy on those two questions and Randy's responses were all geared to "how" instead of "why".


Scott

[Malenko]

It doesn't explain the "haunted" behavior, but one problem that you will have is that there is overlap with some of the P2/P3 IPAC4 defaults.

Never got an answer from Andy on those two questions and Randy's responses were all geared to "how" instead of "why".

Moot points, just change key mappings on the IPAC4 and be done with it, then change the default game mappings in MAME, then do all the 4 player games.
If you'd like I can write down all the keys I used for my players on my KeyWizST/MAME config

[PL1]

Yeah, both are moot points. . . as long as he deconflicts the P2/P3 control overlaps like I suggested and you don't care to know if there was a logical reason back then why Andy chose those particular keys as IPac defaults for P2B5-8.   


Scott

[Malenko]

Yeah, both are moot points. . . as long as he deconflicts the P2/P3 control overlaps like I suggested and you don't care to know if there was a logical reason back then why Andy chose those particular keys as IPac defaults for P2B5-8.   


Scott

I should have said irrelevant. Since the buttons can be changed on both the encoder and the software, it doesn't matter why he chose those defaults.

 

[AzureKnight]

shift isn't working you say?  That's usually a tell tale sign of a switch being wired as NC instead of NO

The "shift" functions I refer to are the encoder's ability to use 2 button combos to emulate other keys, not the actual shift key emulation.  He should be able to assign ONE shift button, and when pressed ALL other "shift" functions will trigger instead of the usual function.  So if he sets his P1B6 to shift, when pressed, any other button or joystick direction will do a different command, if it is assigned.  My guess here is if he was messing with it, he didn't get the proper button assigned as the shift button, and one of the P1 buttons is shift and when it is being used, a P3 and P4 function takes over a P1 function.  Best to clear out ALL shift functions on the IPAC and make sure you don't have a shift button assigned at all.

Currently P1 Start is defined as the Shift key for P1/P2 in the key mapper and P3 Start is the Shift key for P3/4.

[Malenko]

either use the remapping tool to test the inputs, or start unhooking 1 input at a time for player3/4 until the issue goes away. This is assuming you already made sure all the switches are wired to normally open.

[AzureKnight]

I noticed the overlapping keys, I had them changed out but when I did a restore defaults it put them back in of course and I have yet to remap them.  I can say that this problem is not related as it generally seems to be the joystick use on P3/4 that triggers the events and none of those overlap with the effects I am seeing.

I found similar symptoms with my ipac 2. I eventually found my negatives wasn't consistent so make.sure all your button negatives are ok.

I want to make sure I know what you mean here?  Just ensure that all of the grounds are still attached?  I can certainly test that.  I used one of those pre-wired ground daisy chain deals (figured it would make wiring easier, I shouldn't have bothered buying it...) and I will say a few of them were a little on the loose side.  I crimped a few lightly with some needle nose pliers, I'll make sure there are no other loose ones.

[AzureKnight]

either use the remapping tool to test the inputs, or start unhooking 1 input at a time for player3/4 until the issue goes away. This is assuming you already made sure all the switches are wired to normally open.

I'm currently at work...so I'll be testing all of these suggestions tonight when I get home. 

I did fire up the Test tool that is in the mapping software.  When you trigger a switch it just flashes the key on the screen.  I couldn't get it to show any key that wasn't being called in the test tool.  I ran out of time last night, my next step was to fire up notepad and see if I could get it to register anything odd.

I really appreciate all the suggestions.

[Malenko]

I want to make sure I know what you mean here?  Just ensure that all of the grounds are still attached?  I can certainly test that.  I used one of those pre-wired ground daisy chain deals (figured it would make wiring easier, I shouldn't have bothered buying it...) and I will say a few of them were a little on the loose side.  I crimped a few lightly with some needle nose pliers, I'll make sure there are no other loose ones.

If he means what I think he means, just make sure there are no breaks in the ground loop.   Pre-wired daisy chains are a mixed blessing, when they work they are awesome, when they don't its rage inducing.

[AzureKnight]

I want to make sure I know what you mean here?  Just ensure that all of the grounds are still attached?  I can certainly test that.  I used one of those pre-wired ground daisy chain deals (figured it would make wiring easier, I shouldn't have bothered buying it...) and I will say a few of them were a little on the loose side.  I crimped a few lightly with some needle nose pliers, I'll make sure there are no other loose ones.

If he means what I think he means, just make sure there are no breaks in the ground loop.   Pre-wired daisy chains are a mixed blessing, when they work they are awesome, when they don't its rage inducing.

Total rookie question here:  It doesn't hurt anything if some of the connectors aren't actually connected to anything right?  I have a long stretch or two where there are a couple of floating unconnected connectors.  As far as I figured they are fine but I certainly don't know that to be 100% true....

[Malenko]

doesnt matter at all

[AndyWarne]

• 4 joysticks (default keys)

. . .

• P1 and P2 have 6 buttons each (default keys)
• P3 and P4 have 4 buttons each (default keys)

It doesn't explain the "haunted" behavior, but one problem that you will have is that there is overlap with some of the P2/P3 IPAC4 defaults.

MAME Player 2 Button 5-8 default keys are undefined and Player 3 directional default keys are I, K, J, and L.

Why do IPac2, IPac4, and KeyWiz use I, K, J, and L for Player 2 Button 5-8 default keys?   

Why does the IPac4 use I, K, J, and L for Player 2 Button 5-8 and Player 3 directional default keys? 

Never got an answer from Andy on those two questions and Randy's responses were all geared to "how" instead of "why".


Scott

Thats a good question. I cant remember all the details but it was some time back in 2001, the I-PAC 2 came first and Mame did not have any keys assigned for player 2 SW 5-8. But I got those keys from somewhere, it was another emulator. I cant remember exactly which one, might have been Callus.

Then when the I-PAC 4 came out I had to assign the Mame defaults for player 3 and these overlapped unfortunately.

I should change those P2 defaults really. Any suggestions welcome.

Regarding the problem, as has been mentioned, the fact that shift functions are not working is suspicious and might indicate one or more switches wired to NC.

A long shot, but I have heard in the past of key issues arising when Hyperspin is being used although I have not heard of this recently so maybe a possible issue has been fixed there.

[PL1]

Thanks, Andy.   

I figured that it was either something like that or a carry-over from a matrix keyboard encoder layout to minimized blocking/ghosting.   


Scott

[PL1]

I should change those P2 defaults really. Any suggestions welcome.

After 13 years and countless IPac's, MiniPac's, KeyWiz's, KADE's, etc. that use those defaults, my suggestion is to leave them as-is.

If you really want to change defaults, please consider changing the P3 directions instead of the P2B5-8 defaults since there are far fewer 3- or 4-player builds than 2-player builds.

The KADE team tested the following keys for the P1-P4 MAME Multi-Mode fimware to see if there were any conflicts with the emulators/front-ends we are running and everything worked well.

  P3 Up = PAGE_UP
  P3 Down = PAGE_DOWN
  P3 Left = HOME
  P3 Right = END


Scott

[AzureKnight]

I started by looking for any NC connection but I didn't find any.  I then went through and checked each ground wire to see if it was loose, there were a bunch so I took some needle nose pliers and tightened the disconnects on most of them to make them a bit more snug.  Fired it up to test and everything seems to be working great 

Thanks everyone you nailed it!

Scott I also remapped my P3 to your suggestions.  I never did try the shift feature, I should when I get the chance just to see.

[AzureKnight]

I figured I would add a final reply to this thread if anyone ever comes across it searching for a solution to a similar problem.

Fixing the loose ground wires helped a lot but it wasn't the full solution.

It turns out I am an idiot.  I wired the switches on my coin door the same way I wired all the other microswitches.  I did not take the time to look at them closely and the two prongs are reversed.  So I just wired to the prong closer to the ground and it turns out that was the NC prong instead of the NO one.  So all four of my coin door switches were firing away endlessly causing the shift function to appear to be not working.

This has also helped in overall better responsiveness of the system as a whole.