New to shooting games..do I need aimtrak with a tube TV?

[mcseforsale]

So, I'm getting a 27" TV from a dude at work and my son wants a shooting arcade...tentatively called "Kill Shot".  I'm wondering, when using an emulator, do you need to use AimTrak guns with a tube TV?  Or, can you use regular light-guns?  If so, do you need a special adapter?  Please help!

AJ

[yotsuya]

So, I'm getting a 27" TV from a dude at work and my son wants a shooting arcade...tentatively called "Kill Shot".  I'm wondering, when using an emulator, do you need to use AimTrak guns with a tube TV?  Or, can you use regular light-guns?  If so, do you need a special adapter?  Please help!

AJ

If you're using a TV, try and find some ACT Labs that work with a CRT. Probably a better option.

[Slippyblade]

AimTracks use an LED bar to triangulate position.  They don't care what kind of screen you are using.

[yotsuya]

To piggy back off what Slippy said, yes, you CAN you AimTraks with a TV, but if I were using a TV and had access to ActLabs, I might go that route first.

[mcseforsale]

What about GunCon2?

AJ

[NickG]

Guncon 2 can be very difficult to get working correctly with PC,  I almost gave up after the y-rolling issue at some res, then finally did when I never got one to be corner-correct.  Guncon2 can play some Guncon 1 games collections on PS2.  There are a few types available, I think one version or third-party compatible is may be backward compatible with PS1 guncon1.  There are some which are compatible with both PS2 and original X-box.  I owned one previously which worked OK with a one of the NES emulators on original X-box, I cannot remember if I ran any MAME or other emulators with the Gun (which was actually a camera/sensor gun., but I am fairly certain a light gun exists.)

[mcseforsale]

Thanks.  I'm still learning about this stuff and whatever the solution, it'll have to work with PC/Mame.  But, I don't want to wait around for some Unicorn to show up, either.

AJ

[Malenko]

To answer your question, AIMTraks are not the only solution when using a tube TV.

However, personally, I'd just get the AIMTrak guns. Then if later down the road you change displays the guns will already be set up to work.

[yotsuya]

To answer your question, AIMTraks are not the only solution when using a tube TV.

However, personally, I'd just get the AIMTrak guns. Then if later down the road you change displays the guns will already be set up to work.

Excellent point.

[mcseforsale]

That is a good point.  Aimtrak's it is! 

Thanks all.  Look for a project announcement soon!

AJ

[pbj]

God help you on the light gun path, all I can say.   I really need to dump my EMS Top Gun, all it does is collect dust.

[mcseforsale]

Yeah.  It's ambitious.  My my little man wants a shooting arcade.  It's either that or a $$ pinball of some sort.  I'll probably just purchase one Aimtrak and hook it up on the bench to see if I can accept its function.  If so, the project will take shape.

If not, I'm sure I can find something to do with an old TV and a PC 

AJ

[BadMouth]

It has to do with what your expectations are for them.

Personally I can't stand the IR guns.  They just aren't accurate enough to turn off the crosshairs and use the gun sights.
It feels more like I'm using a magic wand than a gun.  You point it in the general direction and watch the on-screen crosshairs to aim.
It gets worse when games are played by someone of a different height or standing in a different position.
If you're happy playing gun games on a wii, then you'll be happy with them.
The upside is that they'll also work for the positional(mounted) gun games where you spray bullets like Terminator 2.

If the TV has an S-video input, I'd be on the lookout for an old set of Act Labs TV guns (there is a tv and a PC version).
They'll work with a composite input, but the graphics are too blurry with that input IMO.
I used to have the silver ray gun style and loved them. (before I rid my home of CRTs)  You can stand anywhere, use the sights on the gun, and they are accurate to within 3 pixels.
The downsides are that they won't work for the positional gun games, and if the TV has any type of built in processing (overscan, comb filtering), they won't work.
There is another style that looks like a small silver pistol (not ray gun).  Those are the most uncomfortable light guns I've ever held in my hand.

[dkersten]

I agree with the aimtraks for future compatibility, but at the same time, BadMouth has some great points about the lack of accuracy with aimtrak guns.  IF you are standing front and center, at about 5-6 feet back, and calibrate it in a fairly dark room with no overly bright light sources and no reflective surfaces in the line of sight behind the screen, it is pretty accurate.  But you also have to play a game in the same resolution and size as your windows desktop for that to stay.

With the CRT, you won't be switching to a "Letterboxed" mode, so that won't be an issue.  If you are only using one gun and standing in the same place, holding it at the same height all the time, you will be happy with the aimtrak.  But as soon as you step outside of those parameters, expect things to start getting ugly.

Bottom line, on most mame games you will want the crosshairs on.  In some, you will have to turn them off and enable the game's crosshairs (they can be different even after calibration).  Far as I know, no other emulator allows for multiple guns at once.  Your best bet is games that run natively on the PC and use the mouse control for aiming.

[BadMouth]

You might want to bookmark this thread for future reference.

List of just about all emulated arcade light gun games: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,119925.msg1271123.html#msg1271123
scroll down to Darth Marino's videos for emulated console games.

[RandyT]

Yeah.  It's ambitious.  My my little man wants a shooting arcade.

I've posted this before, but I think it still holds true:

1: (you already have the CRT)
2: Pick up a Playstation2 for cheap
3: Get a Guncon1 and Guncon2 (and maybe a decent "normal" lightgun if you want to play the couple of titles which don't support the Guncons)
4: Scoop up as many of the supported titles as you can find for both systems (there are actually quite a few)
5: Be happy

This is what I did after trying the other options and not being happy with them.  It's not MAME, but the titles available are very good, for the most part, and certainly satisfy the lightgun game cravings.

[pbj]

There's some pretty decent shooting games out on the Wii as well, and you can get those stupid things for less than $50 from Cowboom.

[RandyT]

There's some pretty decent shooting games out on the Wii as well, and you can get those stupid things for less than $50 from Cowboom.

IMHO, guns should shoot where they are pointed, not move a cursor on the screen (unless the position of both of those things coincide.)  Wii shooting games have the same issues as other IR solutions, so they don't really rise to the accuracy expectations most will have.  Not much you can do about it with LCD screens, but better is possible with a CRT, and different positioning technology.

[AzureKnight]

This may be covered somewhere else, so feel free to yell at me to stop being lazy and go find it....but what made the actual arcade light guns work so well that we can't duplicate now?  Was it just that every game/gun worked in a different way?

[RandyT]

This may be covered somewhere else, so feel free to yell at me to stop being lazy and go find it....but what made the actual arcade light guns work so well that we can't duplicate now?  Was it just that every game/gun worked in a different way?

CRT displays.  Even the projection models had CRT's as the source, so they still worked on the same principle.  There is probably a newer technology in use with them now, but it's likely also more advanced and costly than what is used for consumer devices.  I'm sure it's patented as well.  With the newer tech, they can get away with a bit more in the arcade, as the screen size / resolution of the game will be fixed, as well as the position of the player.

[BadMouth]

This may be covered somewhere else, so feel free to yell at me to stop being lazy and go find it....but what made the actual arcade light guns work so well that we can't duplicate now?  Was it just that every game/gun worked in a different way?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_gun
See the Cathode Ray Timing section.

All the light gun games from my youth worked that way, whether they were in the arcade or on a home console.
Remember how the screen flashed white every time you pulled the trigger?
The only ones that didn't work that way were the ones that had the gun mounted, like T2.
Those used potentiometers and were basically joysticks. 
(There are a couple oddballs.  Operation wolf uses a true light gun mounted to a base like a positional gun)

[pbj]

There's some pretty decent shooting games out on the Wii as well, and you can get those stupid things for less than $50 from Cowboom.

IMHO, guns should shoot where they are pointed, not move a cursor on the screen (unless the position of both of those things coincide.)  Wii shooting games have the same issues as other IR solutions, so they don't really rise to the accuracy expectations most will have.  Not much you can do about it with LCD screens, but better is possible with a CRT, and different positioning technology.

I've posted this 20 times already, but what's 21?  The Wii native shooting games, in my opinion, have been adjusted to work better with the technology.  Considering as you can pick one up, soft mod it, and steal all the games for less than one PC light gun costs I encourage you to try it for yourself.

 



 

[RandyT]

<snip>... I encourage you to try it for yourself.

I absolutely agree.  Different folks will have different ideas as to what constitutes an enjoyable "gun" gaming experience.  Quite a few of the Wii "zapper" titles which are the most recommended, are the traditional first person shooter type.  Most, if not all, have some sort of sighting icon displayed, and would normally rely on a different pointing device which does the same function.  I can definitely see how this might be enhanced with a gun-type pointing device.

But if you are the type of gamer who considers on-screen crosshairs an unnecessary, or even distracting option, and who might rather rely on the accuracy of pointing the "gun" at the target, it's tough to do better than GunCon (1 or 2) technology.  It's pretty easy to test for this kind of accuracy: find a game for the Wii (target shooting would be the best) which allows you to turn off the crosshairs.  Then, play a few games with them both on and off, while moving freely about the play area.  If you can do as well in both instances, then they've probably made some pretty substantial improvements to the algorithms.  Otherwise, the crosshairs are masking the shortcomings of the technology.

If you don't own, or have never really used a firearm, or haven't experienced true lightgun gaming, you might not be as picky.  I don't fall into this category, so I probably have higher expectations.

[mcseforsale]

I have very limited experience with light gun games.  I've only done a couple in my long history of arcade gaming.  As for Wii titles, I could just buy the gun and the games and skip the cab altogether since this is the primary console in the house anyway.



I was hoping that building a dedicated MAME-based arcade with light guns would be fun to play games you see in the arcade.  But it sounds like everyone here disagrees.

AJ

[RandyT]

I have very limited experience with light gun games.  I've only done a couple in my long history of arcade gaming.  As for Wii titles, I could just buy the gun and the games and skip the cab altogether since this is the primary console in the house anyway.

I would start by following PBJ's advice in this case.  If you decide that it's not cutting it for you, then take the next step.  Just be aware that the options for MAME aren't going to be substantially better, but you will have the option to play arcade shooting games which may not be available on other platforms.

[Slippyblade]

CRT displays.  Even the projection models had CRT's as the source, so they still worked on the same principle.  There is probably a newer technology in use with them now,

Time Crisis 4 uses LED's around the screen edges...  I found that out when I was replacing one of the guns last week.

[yotsuya]

I was hoping that building a dedicated MAME-based arcade with light guns would be fun to play games you see in the arcade.  But it sounds like everyone here disagrees.

AJ

I hear you,  brother.  I'm going to build a gun cab using a 25" CRT and an AIMTrak. I'm more interested in the American Laser games myself.

[mcseforsale]

Has anyone tried the EMS TopGun III?

AJ

[NickG]

I use a pair of EMS3 and a pair of Guncon2.  The recoil and wireless on the EMS set helps them be fun.  The PC hurdle on those is getting player-two working.

[keilmillerjr]

I love the wii shooting games, especially red steel. But what I found was that sitting on a couch and steady movements is the only was to excell in a game. Regardless of the cross hairs, I can wave a wand quicker than I can see the cross hair jump across the screen. Maybe my sight isn't too good. But I can excell with steady movements. Games in the arcade seem to be much more point and shoot. 2 player shooting on the wii is rediculous. Half the time I think I'm killing zombies, only to find out I'm looking at the wrong crosshair.

[dkersten]

I am a big fan of Big Buck HD at the bar, and those are IR LED based guns that are extremely accurate (if they are regularly calibrated).  You can be 12 inches from the screen or 7 feet back and still be dead on even to the corners.  There are 2 LED's, both above the monitor and one above the other in the marquee.  The technology is very similar to the aimtrak's from what I can see, but the calibration is more complicated and I think that is the main difference.  You start by shooting a fixed point on the marquee (top center of the screen) and then shoot targets all over the screen.  The sensor is not in the end of the gun, it is on top and about centered over the trigger area, angled up a little so even if you are up close to the screen it has a clear view of the IR LED's in the marquee.  The aimtraks have to be about 5-6 feet back and you pretty much have to be centered and at the same height in order for the aim to be even close.  Off center means forgetting about corners being close, and the calibration is 3 points on the screen, not in all 4 corners and in the center and top and bottom, so corners can't be calculated if off axis (and end up with a trapezoidal view of the screen). 

I would pay more than the already high price of the aimtraks to have something as accurate as the BBH guns based on the same technology.  But even if they were dead on perfect, as soon as you go from your 16:9 desktop to a 4:3 game, the accuracy is out the window.  I understand that BBH HD is now available on windows 8.1, and I am considering changing over to 8.1 just to try it and see if it works.  It would be worth it to have a similar version to what is at the bars at home. 

[AzureKnight]

CRT displays.  Even the projection models had CRT's as the source, so they still worked on the same principle.  There is probably a newer technology in use with them now, but it's likely also more advanced and costly than what is used for consumer devices.  I'm sure it's patented as well.  With the newer tech, they can get away with a bit more in the arcade, as the screen size / resolution of the game will be fixed, as well as the position of the player.

So given that CRT was the big difference, the OP (and my build) both are using a CRT.  Are there any good options out there that can work with MAME and a CRT?

[Jollywest]

CRT displays.  Even the projection models had CRT's as the source, so they still worked on the same principle.  There is probably a newer technology in use with them now, but it's likely also more advanced and costly than what is used for consumer devices.  I'm sure it's patented as well.  With the newer tech, they can get away with a bit more in the arcade, as the screen size / resolution of the game will be fixed, as well as the position of the player.

So given that CRT was the big difference, the OP (and my build) both are using a CRT.  Are there any good options out there that can work with MAME and a CRT?

As the OP knows there is another CRT lightgun option, but it requires a fair bit of work in sourcing and setting up parts/pc and will cost more.
However, if you are keen on having a accurate lightgun setup with original arcade hardware then it may be worth it to you. If not then one of the options mentioned already will probably suffice.

Click the 'USB2Gun' link in my sig for details.

I think BYOAC member 'Purple Tophat' still has one of these available.

I'm planning on uploading some videos in the next few weeks of this setup in action, just need to finish setting everything up 'cab friendly'.