Arcade Table Build - Input Needed

[ASilver76]

I'm currently spitballing the idea of scratch-building an arcade table - a functional 2 to 4 person table with a solid plex/glass top, 6 button, 8-way joystick and trackball on each side niche-set under the protective top, and a solid heavy-duty build quality that also can also easily be cleaned and maintained. Since so many people on here have actual practical building experience, I'd like to get some opinions and suggestions before going any further. The following questions in particular I'd like the board's thoughts on:

1) Shape. I love the table-style Ms Pacman and Galaga designs, but I can also envision something a little less rectangular. The important points are that I want the table to be full-sized and functional (think restaurant-sized freestanding table) and I want the screen(s) to be large enough to not look like crappy inset hackjobs (in other words, a maximum 4 to 7 inch "bezel" area between the screen(s) and the edge of the table. However, after seeing the fantastic "Barrel of Kong' builds on here, my minds of definately open to alternative shapes and styles.

2) Number of screens. Obviously LCD panels are the way to go, but the question is how many to use? One large one? Two large ones size-by side? Two to four smaller ones in a square setup? I want two people on opposite sides of the table to both be able to play at the same time, either cooperatively or independently at the very least. I was even mulling over a king-sized super table with four screens and a square 'empty area" in the center for food/drinks, etc.

3) Number of controls. Two or four? I suppose it depends more on the size and shape of the table. A Warlords-style 4 player setup could work, even on a smaller table, if one large LCD is used. Or two sets of controllers on opposite sizes, a la Ms. Pacman/Galaga. The look I'm going for is simple and clean; all controllers will be installed in recessed niches in the table, so nothing sticks out beyond the standard table edges.

4) Legs vs. box design. Should the table have independent standard table legs, or should the body of the table be a box-design for added stability? Again, I'd like personal opinions and well as personal experiences with each style. I want to to look good, but stability is my main concern.

5) Color scheme and build materials. I want something that looks professional and subtle, and not garish. As a result, I've come up with two ideas: solid wood (w/brown color scheme), and brushed metal (with black color scheme). Right now I'm favoring the solid wood idea, but again I'm open to any and all thoughts. I'm far from an expert in either set of materials, so a major factor is going to be ease of construction.

6) OS. I want to build a system that's almost entirely fire-and-forget. Turn it on, it boots up into an attractive menu to select your game (right now I'm considering a purely MAME setup, but would be again expand it out to console emuators in the future). I'm famillar with all flavors of Windows, but I want something that lacks boot screens, loads extremely fast and can't really messed with by anyone who isn't technically sophisticaed. That's why Linux is a possibility I'm willing to entertain.

Again, any and all thoughts, suggestions, and comments are appreciated.

[keilmillerjr]

Try using a round table with one single screen. Make the cabinet support the table like pac man tables instead of 4 long legs like most tables. Then you could use it as a card table, and then move the chairs closer to 2 sides for gaming. Just an idea.

Look into xubuntu and attract-mode frontend.

[AzureKnight]

What games do you plan to play on it?  I think that will dictate a lot when it comes to the monitor choices.  If you plan on playing a fighter then you certainly can't have on big monitor unless all the controls are on the same side of the table.  That would even be true with Donkey Kong, I can't see trying to play that upside down.

Open vs Closed base:  do you plan on putting a computer in there case and all?  Or do you plan to unmount the hardware and remount it in the table? 

[ASilver76]

That's a good question. I want to be able to serve up and play all of the tradional 80s-90s games that can be played by one person, or two people in vs/alternating configuration (i.e. anything that could originaly be played in a table config by 2 or more players). Four-player warlords-style games are also a possibility, but there are very few of those outthere. This is wy I'm favoring a dual-monitor config right now; it allows each person on each side of the table to play their own choice of game, as well as most of the vs games that are available (not talking about nintendo vs or red tent type games for the most part). I'm not really seeing anyone playing alot of fighting games on this system - mostly shmups and arcade classics.

[RandyT]

To play both VS and alternating 2-player games on a flat table, you will absolutely need to A: put both sets of controls on the same side of the table, or B: use two monitors, splitting the signal between them.

Also, the closer you are to the standard rectangular shape for the top, the less dead space you will have at the edges.  If going the multiple monitor route, I'd suspect a circular table would become quite large to accommodate them.

Unless you use "all-in-one" systems, you will need someplace for the components.  If the tabletop is large, you can use an enclosed center structure to house them, which would provide some leg room for the players.  The large, boxy cocktail cabinets don't seem to provide adequate leg room, and really are no longer necessary when using flat screen displays. 

Use your imagination to come up with a unique design which is unhitched from designs of the past.  Many of the limitations which dictated the shape of those machines, no longer exist.

[ASilver76]

Excellent points, and much appreciated. It seems then the the dual-monitor lcd might be the best way to go. Truth me told, I don't mind too much bezel deadspace, but I want it to look like an arcade table, as opposed to a table ginned up with a couple of monitors as an afterthrought. Regarding components, I'm definately all for having a central core compartment in the base of the table for the computer (mini or micro ITX board should work nicely) and any other components that need to be included (i-pac, etc). The only thing I'm mulling over is weather the compartment should be a hanging one, or a solid one carved into the tablr body itself. The later sounds like a more solid and secure option. Regarding the table shape, you're absolutely right - round might be a problem, due to size. Square or rectiangular seems to be the order of the day. Simple and functional. plus, it makes incorporating a plexi or glass topper easier (though I'm still not sure whether to make it a flush protective layer within the table body, or something that lays flat over the top and extends out beyond the edges of the table.

[AzureKnight]

It sounds like the aesthetic portion of this is very important to you (which I think is great).  Maybe you should browse google images for tables, find a look that jumps out at you and then figure out how to make that functional.

[jennifer]

    Jennifer would use a piece of 3/16 safety glass rather than the plexy, It does cost a bit more but its benefits far outweigh the price.

[dkersten]

I agree with Jennifer here, if you are going to use the table for any kind of "table" functions, you will be replacing plexi on a regular basis.  It simply doesn't wear well when used like that.  Any glass shop should be able to get you the size and shape you want.  I would definitely use safety glass if you can get it, either laminated or tempered, especially if kids are ever going to be near it.  Personally I would go to 1/4" glass if there is any overhang where you might be resting anything heavy on it.  If you are insetting the glass in a frame or just running it to the edge or even just having a couple inches overhang, 3/16 would be plenty thick.  It sounds like you are looking for a functional table, and possible something much bigger than just a cocktail cabinet, so I am guessing you will have the glass overhanging the base by a lot. 

[mgb]

I also agree to the glass. Do not use acrylic on a horizontal project like this.
As far as the head to head VS thing, rather than use two monitors, use one monitor that's a good size, 32" and run horizontal games in cocktail mode. This wil split it into 2 screens, one facing player 1 and one facing player 2 on the other side.
This way you will still have vertical games looking nice

[jennifer]

I also agree to the glass. Do not use acrylic on a horizontal project like this.
As far as the head to head VS thing, rather than use two monitors, use one monitor that's a good size, 32" and run horizontal games in cocktail mode. This wil split it into 2 screens, one facing player 1 and one facing player 2 on the other side.
This way you will still have vertical games looking nice

   HOLD THE PHONE.... So what your saying is this Mame thing has a cocktail mode, and both screens are in proper orientation at the same time?.... You could still have the screen aim at each player when its there turn (like space Fever for example) right

[PL1]

I also agree to the glass. Do not use acrylic on a horizontal project like this.
As far as the head to head VS thing, rather than use two monitors, use one monitor that's a good size, 32" and run horizontal games in cocktail mode. This wil split it into 2 screens, one facing player 1 and one facing player 2 on the other side.
This way you will still have vertical games looking nice

   HOLD THE PHONE.... So what your saying is this Mame thing has a cocktail mode, and both screens are in proper orientation at the same time?.... You could still have the screen aim at each player when its there turn (like space Fever for example) right

You might need to do a custom .lay file to get Space Fever to go head-to-head like Bubble Bobble.

Check Mr. Do's FAQ (2nd from bottom) for details on how to do this.   


Scott
Edit: Just noticed that Space Fever (spacefev) always flips the screen 180 degrees during P2's turn regardless of video mode selected -- never tried a 2-player game of it before.   

No need for a custom .lay file.

[mgb]

I also agree to the glass. Do not use acrylic on a horizontal project like this.
As far as the head to head VS thing, rather than use two monitors, use one monitor that's a good size, 32" and run horizontal games in cocktail mode. This wil split it into 2 screens, one facing player 1 and one facing player 2 on the other side.
This way you will still have vertical games looking nice

   HOLD THE PHONE.... So what your saying is this Mame thing has a cocktail mode, and both screens are in proper orientation at the same time?.... You could still have the screen aim at each player when its there turn (like space Fever for example) right

I'm going to assume that jenifer is trying to be funny, giggle, giggle.
But mgb thinks, she doesn't understand the conversation at hand.
I'm talking about cocktail mode for horizontal games like fighters. So each player can sit on one side and still play simultaneous 2 player games, As shown is Scott's Bubble Bobble example.
Space fever is a vertical alternating 2 player game, not what was being discussed.

[jennifer]

   No, not being funny at all...  I have never seen screens split like that before and found PL1s explanation of it quite helpful in trying to understand it. And can see the practical uses for it on a cocktail build.

[mgb]

   No, not being funny at all...  I have never seen screens split like that before and found PL1s explanation of it quite helpful in trying to understand it. And can see the practical uses for it on a cocktail build.

Ok then, carry on

[DeLuSioNal29]

Wow, I had no idea you could do this either with horizontal games in cocktail mode either!  Thanks for that info!

D

[mgb]

I believe the first time I saw it was on Louis Tully's cocktail build.

[jennifer]

    It should maybe be pointed out that MAME has frustrated me for years, From the confusing front ends to the hacked ROMS, And from time to time I just give up the dream...
But then something fun like this comes along, Jennifer has hope for it. I do know that cocktail cabs are really popular right now over uprights, and as a build would be a good choice.

[ASilver76]

It's replies like the one's that have been provided that confirm that I'm definately in the right place to ask these questions. Jennifer, thank you for enlightening me about the pros of glass over plexi. I'm still debating whether an inset piece or an overhanging piece is best. You are all correct however - I want this table to be a general use object as well as a gaming system. Which means it is likely going to be larger then most cocktail designs and will need a heavier-gage protective layer, that might also need to be sealed to make it liquid and scratchproof. The benefit of the overhanging design is both is simplicity (I'm not the most adept or careful builder), and the fact that it potentially protects the controllers from food/drink/whatever spills. On the other hand, the inset concept looks cleaner and more sophisticated. Also it allows for a "drop in" protective surface instead of a "screw in" overhang.

Another thing I'm mulling over is dual monitor placement. I can place monitors back-to-back or side-by-side. I'd like to keep the controls for each side centered, so back-to-back looks to be the way to go, but unless I can find fairly large 16:9 LCD panels on the cheap, the overall table proportions might be problematic. Smaller LCDs in both 16:9 and 4:3 are fairly easy to source, but again I really don't want the monitors to look like anfterthought ina large table setup. However, I can also conceive of a slightly longer and more rectangular table with controls offset to opposite sides and the monitors side0by-side. But that seems almost like more of an arcade "bro-bench" then a table, since no one is actually sitting face-to-face to use it.

One more thing i forgot to mention: sound. I'm thinkng of not having an actual speaker, but rather a couple of headphone jacks or a bluetooth wireless sound solution. That way, different people can play different games without cross-noise. Of course adding a "default" speaker set on each side wouldn't be much trouble, and could be made to automute if headphones are being used or are plugged in. The trick is incorporsting them in such a way that they aren't vulnerable to food/drink issues, and also doesn't causer the table to become a giant rumblepack.

As always, all suggestions and thoughts are appreciated.

[jennifer]

     If you take a look at a midway cab (Gorf/Ms Pac) the glass is the size of the top, held down with surface clamps, But there is a overhang over the controls, affording some spill protection. Avoiding any art on the overhang would be an improvement over the original design due to the abuse factor.... Cross noise to Jenn seems to be a good thing, Not only would it give the old world arcade noise factor, but it intensify game action by interacting with the other player.

[mgb]

Not sure if I've missed it but what is your proposed layout, head to head like a traditional cocktail cabinet?
if this is your plan and you plan to have two horizontal monitors butted together, what will you do about vertical games?
That's why I mention the idea of having one vertically mounted monitor (32" or so) with controls at each end and use the software to split it up as if you had two horizontals, then vertical will play nice and large.

do you have any kind of sketches or rough plans that show what kind of setup you're going for?

[ASilver76]

My idea is two flat-mounted LCD monitors (probably 16:9 widescreens) of as-yet undetermined size back-to-back, and encompassing the majority of the space of the tabletop.  Honestly, I hadn't given much thought yet to verical vs horizontal games. Due to the monitors most likely being widescreen at this point, I thought I would mount them horizontally, and the vertical games would play in yoko mode. However, I am open to other suggestions. Truth is, if I could find and afford a single giant LCD that would run the length of the entire table, I'd be all for it, and that sort of setup would allow for a third set of controls on the short end of the table, that would work for both vertical shmups and virtual pinball. But again, that is probably price-prohibitive at this point, not to mention probably more work then I could handle at this point. Never hurts to dream though.

[AzureKnight]

I'm not going to pretend to be the most adept at mame settings (i've only set it up to run on my PC/keyboard to this point). 

You seem divided on one monitor vs two.  You also seem to want to be able to play one game with both players while also supporting two different games at the same time by the two different players.

Can mame be set up in such a way to run  two different games at once (basically two instances of it running but each instance using different controls)?  Or would you plan on doing two different PCs in the system to allow for two different games?  If that option, how were you thinking to handle two player games?  They both run one instance in that case?

I think you need to nail down what your goals are first, then decide on the best implementation of those goals.

[mgb]

I missed the part where it was mentioned about two players playing different games at the same time.
Doesn't sound like a good idea to me

[PL1]

I missed the part where it was mentioned about two players playing different games at the same time.
Doesn't sound like a good idea to me

I want two people on opposite sides of the table to both be able to play at the same time, either cooperatively or independently at the very least.

For ideas on how to switch between two computers/monitors/USB encoders operating independently and one computer providing video for both monitors and accepting inputs from both encoders, read this thread, this thread, and this thread.




Scott

[ASilver76]

Again, lots of very helpful information. My basic idea is to have each player have the abilty to play whatever game they want on each individual monitor. However, if I can also allow both players to play the same game in "vs" cocktail mode (i.e. either simultaneously or alternating between rounds), that would be ideal. I have no problems including more then one small micro-itx setup in the table, but the switiching between the two for vs games could be a problem.

As for one monitor vs two, I think that two monitors are definitely the way to go, unless I run into a gigantic flatscreen LCD at a bargain basement price...which I just can't see happening. However, you never know...

[PL1]

KVM switch in "independent" position
Computer 1
Accepts inputs from Encoder 1
Provides video to Screen 1

Computer 2
Accepts inputs from Encoder 2
Provides video to Screen 2

KVM switch in "linked" position
Computer 1
Accepts inputs from Encoder 1 and Encoder 2
Provides video to Screen 1 and Screen 2 (MAME can output two matching screens for most games or separate P1/P2 POV for games that support it)

Computer 2
Not used -- standing by until the KVM switch is switched back to "independent".

Encoders
One thing to remember is that Encoder 2 needs to be programmed with different keystrokes than Encoder 1.

If Encoder 1 has P1/P2 MAME defaults, Encoder 2 should be P3/P4 defaults, other than the keys that overlap with P1/P2.

Computer 2's MAME should be reconfigured so P1/P2 default inputs are remappped to Encoder 2. (P3/P4 keys)


Scott