Kickstarter project - Ultimate Mancave, need tips please

[dkersten]

Not that I am defending the word "mancave" but when you have been married for a decade or two you come to realize that everything you loved about your "bachelor pad" has slowly been removed from your home, and at some point there is a final "hold out" for the stuff a man wants in an entertainment/relaxing area that women want nothing to do with.. big TV's that don't go with the décor, old couches and chairs that are comfortable but ugly, and other non-feminine things like a bar, humidor, those old gas station and neon beer signs, pool tables, dart boards, and *gasp* old arcade machines, end up in one room, usually in a place where the more "civilized" women will never see when they come to visit (like the unfinished basement, the garage, or whatever dark and dingy part of the house they want nothing to do with).  AND, being married, they can't invite women over to hang out while they sit in their comfy couch watching a game or playing something, so I think "mancave" truly fits the bill.  My "man cave" is on my main floor right off the kitchen/living room area, and is between that space and the back yard (which is just an extension of the "man cave" area), so it is far from cave-like, and I have women over all the time.  Heck, my girlfriend wants me to install a stripper pole in that room, lol.  So I don't have a "mancave", I have a game room.  But I don't have a problem with the word..

As for the kickstarter, who wants to invest in something that has been obviously mismanaged from the start?  I don't mean to sound like an ---uvula---, but face it, you have to have at least $1000 into each machine, and with over 100, that is a $100,000 investment for a market that never existed.  Why would I invest money in someone who spent $100,000+ on a non-existent market?  And furthermore, if this kickstarter DOES allow you to sell those existing units, that won't show new demand, it will just allow you to unload "dead stock".  There is no future in it, just a liquidation of a bad investment.  Who would invest in that?

Finally, I suppose I can understand the idea behind the analog button, I just have never seen support for that in any emulator.  Again, a concept that is great in theory, but in practice sounds to me like tits on a bull..

[pbj]

Well, I'll take you at your word and accept that you were the brains behind the whole Quasimoto thing, rather than someone that just picked them up on liquidation.  I actually played an "Arcade Station EFX" in an arcade (of all places) and it was a really strange piece.  "Yeah, can you believe the owners paid full price for this thing."  "huh."  "Wanna buy it?"  "Nah."  "$200."  "Nah."  "$100?"  "Nah."

I didn't think about them again until they hit some bargain site.  Groupon?  Woot?  Can't recall site but seemed like they were shipping out of Texas somewhere.

They were an interesting product, and the analog sticks were nice.  But the problem with shoving an Xbox 360 level console into an arcade cabinet is that you're intentionally gimping the functionality of that console to make it a half-assed arcade machine.

To be frank, it's very easy to overestimate demand in this hobby.  You've already proven this product is a failure at the retail level.  What are you hoping to accomplish with the Kickstarter?  I think $1,500 is entirely reasonable for home delivery but I can't imagine any serious demand at any price.


Approach Stern Pinball with your analog buttons.  I always thought variable flipper power would be a neat gimmick on a pinball machine.

 

[ChadTower]

and I hate the word "mancave"

Same here.  Might was well use the word sausagefest.

+1   

Maybe we need to start a support group.

[Generic Eric]

and I hate the word "mancave"

Same here.  Might was well use the word sausagefest.

+1   

Maybe we need to start a support group.

You could hold it the basement of the community center.  In the dimly lit room with the old record player

[ChadTower]

Approach Stern Pinball with your analog buttons.  I always thought variable flipper power would be a neat gimmick on a pinball machine.

 

Capcom was just about there when the shut it down.  Kingpin has CPU controlled flipper power and uses it well.  The game feels a ton like Whodunnit but there is a timed mode where the flippers slowly lose power and then go limp if you don't complete the objective.  Pretty cool.  No player controllable power but that wouldn't be hard to add on their platform.

You could hold it the basement of the community center.  In the dimly lit room with the old record player

That's the American Legion hall, bro.

[Generic Eric]

Why would you trash them if you don't get money from kick-starter?
That doesn't make any sense.

We had that one a few months ago.  It is called the "so & so gambit"  I'm not sure on the name.  Anyway, the idea is if person [a] doesn't

• amount of money for an item, they are going to do [y]  that may or may not be the story here.

Something happened here with the formatting.  My apologies.

I little context to the point I was making.  There is a user here, vidkiller13 that parts out, and destroys cabs.  Recently, over the summer, but I can't find the post, there was another user that wanted to sell an item.  He didn't/wouldn't lower the price low enough and threatened to take it to the dump if it didn't see at the price he was asking.  He said he'd rather take a total lose then sell it for less, because he would still net a lose with disposal fees.  I recall that there was a term used for it, a negotiation style if you well, but I can't remember it, so I called it the "So & So Gambit."

That being said, it is clear you aren't doing that here.   That was more a response directed to nitrogen_widget. 

[yotsuya]

You could use the analog buttons as a substitute for the thruster in Lunar Lander. Clay Cowgill's developed an analog button for that purpose.

[ChadTower]

You could use the analog buttons as a substitute for the thruster in Lunar Lander. Clay Cowgill's developed an analog button for that purpose.

That's a cool idea.  Can't say I see more than 10 units of demand for that, though.

[yotsuya]

You could use the analog buttons as a substitute for the thruster in Lunar Lander. Clay Cowgill's developed an analog button for that purpose.

That's a cool idea.  Can't say I see more than 10 units of demand for that, though.

Well, Clay's also working on a multi-vector board that would be a drop-in for Asteroids, so you could replace the thrust button with his on the CP. If I get the board (which I probably will), I'll get the button as well. Trust me, if that board comes out, there's a demand.

[ChadTower]

Well, Clay's also working on a multi-vector board that would be a drop-in for Asteroids, so you could replace the thrust button with his on the CP. If I get the board (which I probably will), I'll get the button as well. Trust me, if that board comes out, there's a demand.

Not if Clay is selling that button alongside his board.

[yotsuya]

Well, Clay's also working on a multi-vector board that would be a drop-in for Asteroids, so you could replace the thrust button with his on the CP. If I get the board (which I probably will), I'll get the button as well. Trust me, if that board comes out, there's a demand.

Not if Clay is selling that button alongside his board.

I didn't say the demand was for the OPs button... obviously someone buying Clay's board would get Clay's button.

But here's something- if one were to buy the OPs analog button, what encoder would one use with it?

[dkersten]

wait, is this button "analog" in travel or in the force of the push.. The response to my question was that some games you could hit the button "harder" for, say, a harder kick.  I can press something softly and still bottom it out..  So which is it?  Or are we assuming that the software would recognize when it went from 5k to zero resistance in a shorter time frame that it was a harder push?  And what is the travel?  I mean, 5mm of travel for analog wouldn't exactly be "fine" control..

[Malenko]

wait, is this button "analog" in travel or in the force of the push.. The response to my question was that some games you could hit the button "harder" for, say, a harder kick.  I can press something softly and still bottom it out..  So which is it?  Or are we assuming that the software would recognize when it went from 5k to zero resistance in a shorter time frame that it was a harder push?  And what is the travel?  I mean, 5mm of travel for analog wouldn't exactly be "fine" control..

Sounds like this guy doesnt know how to float and bottoms out. Bet you suck at defender. I can beat that game with my toes.

[BadMouth]

If I had a spinner on my CP, I'd want the analog buttons as a substitute for pedals in driving games.

[Malenko]

If I had a spinner on my CP, I'd want the analog buttons as a substitute for pedals in driving games.

Yeah when I saw "analog button" , first thing I thought of was that sweet little OutRun Bartop.

[PL1]

if one were to buy the OPs analog button, what encoder would one use with it?

Since it only has two terminals, it is configured as a variable resistor.

To use OP's buttons, you'd need an encoder that measures 0-5k resistance -- not sure who other than OP carries them or if you could roll your own using an atmega32u4 or later AVR that has analog pin inputs.   

Most analog encoders like KADESTICK, A-Pac, and U-HID measure a variable voltage by using a voltage-dividing three terminal (potentiometer) configuration with ground on one tab, the measured voltage on the center tab (wiper) and 5v on the third tab.

The advantage to the potentiometer configuration is that you can use a wide range of resistance values instead of being tied to one value.


Scott

[BadMouth]

if one were to buy the OPs analog button, what encoder would one use with it?

Probably OP's or a pad hack.

Note he said it registers as 5k and decreases to zero as it's pressed.
5k shows as centered on most gamepads, including xbox360 controllers.
I'm guessing that's why they were made the way they were.
Ignore the fact that I didn't address how to use the other half of the same axis.

[Gravity123]

To be frank, it's very easy to overestimate demand in this hobby.  You've already proven this product is a failure at the retail level.  What are you hoping to accomplish with the Kickstarter?  I think $1,500 is entirely reasonable for home delivery but I can't imagine any serious demand at any price.


Approach Stern Pinball with your analog buttons.  I always thought variable flipper power would be a neat gimmick on a pinball machine.

 

I find this comment interesting considering we built a decent business on this "hobby".  We sold thousands of machines through over 200 retailers and created a lot of jobs along the way.  We have a lot of happy customers, you are just not a customer for the product.  Also the "$100k" investment comment - it was actually much more but was based on a PO for a single customer that folded.  It only represented a fraction of what was sold, we have just simply moved on to new things.  Also, Comparing Arcade Station to Game Gate is not apples to apples.  Remember Game Gate includes a PC so can run emulators plus Xbox 360 and the control panel layout is quite different.  Finally if you have ever run a modified console there are some great front ends and the addition of true analog control opens up a whole library of newer generation titles that play great as an arcade.

[brihyn]

Are the X-box controllers removable?  I feel like it will get in the way or just jab into my stomach or crotch when using the arcade joysticks.

You can't multitask? imagine being able to access the joystick with left hand, buttons with right, and dpad with the crotch? the possibilities are endless.

[Gravity123]

wait, is this button "analog" in travel or in the force of the push.. The response to my question was that some games you could hit the button "harder" for, say, a harder kick.  I can press something softly and still bottom it out..  So which is it?  Or are we assuming that the software would recognize when it went from 5k to zero resistance in a shorter time frame that it was a harder push?  And what is the travel?  I mean, 5mm of travel for analog wouldn't exactly be "fine" control..

The more the button travels, the more the rubber contacts the pad and resistance drops.  Pressing the button hard would make it travel to maximum (zero resistance).  These rubber contacts outlive the cherry switches, less moving parts.  We have never had an analog fail but we have had cherry switch failure.

[Gravity123]

Are the X-box controllers removable?  I feel like it will get in the way or just jab into my stomach or crotch when using the arcade joysticks.

You can't multitask? imagine being able to access the joystick with left hand, buttons with right, and dpad with the crotch? the possibilities are endless.

And the controllers vibrate, don't forget!

[pbj]

The PBJ BS detector has officially dinged. 

 

[dkersten]

Sounds like this guy doesnt know how to float and bottoms out. Bet you suck at defender. I can beat that game with my toes.

LOL!  Maybe I need to learn martial arts, then I could float with the other masters..

The PBJ BS detector has officially dinged.

Yeah, this keeps sounding worse and worse..

So to the OP, let me get this straight.. you built a successful business with this arcade cabinet, but now have over a hundred units you can no longer sell through retail means, so you are starting a kickstarter to ... ?  That is where you lose me.  Kickstarters are for people who have ideas but no funding.  You already had the business, you have the product, the business seems to have failed, and you want to raise money to do what exactly?  Pay for the stock you are losing??  The product is already dead stock, there isn't anything being developed here, and there isn't even a viable business model to profit from. (if there was, you would pursue that direction to unload your inventory)  I just don't get it. 

You are right, we aren't your customers when it comes to the product you are selling.  There is some interest in your buttons, but your reluctance to even acknowledge and address that interest tells me that there is something something fishy here. 

I usually give the benefit of the doubt with anyone I am not familiar with, but too many red flags are popping up here.  The buttons DO sound intriguing, and if that is something the OP is looking to market, perhaps talking to RandyT or Andy at Ultimarc would benefit everyone.  I wouldn't hesitate to buy an analog button from one of those two guys because I trust them.  This OP though, sorry, doesn't sound like he is on the level.

[Malenko]

from what Ive read he's re-purposing old inventory into a new product, of course I may be reading it wrong.

[HanoiBoi]

I read it the same way, Malenko.

Gravity, this doesn't sound like a kickstarter project, but rather just a straight sale.  Set and finalize the price points as seen in your kickstarter draft, then offer up the cabinets for sale by means of a website, Craigslist, eBay, etc..

Pretty straight forward but I guess it depends on what condition your current 100 machines are in.

It seems to me that you want to create preorders, as in locking in the sales, before putting any more time into the cabinets.  It doesn't sound like you want to continue after unloading what you've got.

If you are just looking to dump inventory, figure out an acceptable % of loss, and cut your prices, and get them listed.  Offer some as whole, offer some as parts

Either way, it sounds like a lot of work ahead of you.

Oh...and please, please change the subject.  'Ultimate Mancave' doesn't describe this thing at all.

[Gravity123]

Wow.  Lots of feedback u ere guys.  In case it wasn't noticed you can get the analog buttons through the kickstarter.  The machines are new and unused and have been sealed and are in perfect condition.  I have to put significant resources into converting them including reprogramming the UI, labor, procurement and a lot more.  It is a project to save them and I'm not going to do it otherwise.  I frankly don't have to sell any of this to pay my bills, and I have no reason to acknowledge any "red flags" you perceive.  I have always done business with integrity and will continue to do so.  I reached out here because I value people's input, especially on this forum because members should be creative and insightful or they wouldn't making their own machines.  I do appreciate those that have taken the time to give their candid input, and even for those who have taken their stabs.  It is the preparation I needed, And for that I thank all of you.

[dkersten]

If you are going to continue to pursue the kickstarter, just be sure to be honest about it and say that this is repurposed dead stock that you have no intention of manufacturing more of unless you can sell them all at a profit and find a real market for them (which you couldn't do before because otherwise you wouldn't be sitting on $100k+ of dead stock).  I'm not trying to be an ass here, but your story has evolved a little from the beginning.  You started by making it sound like you had developed a prototype and wanted to test the market further and get feedback.  Then you admitted that you had a lot of stock that you were trying to save from the landfill.  Then you said you had been selling them well until you lost a key customer and now want to liquidate your stock to free up space.  Not exactly straightforward from the start, hence why I get a bad feeling about your story and your methods. 

Good luck with your kickstarter, I am sure someone will profit from it...

[pbj]

 

[keilmillerjr]

A lot of hard work went into your product. Arcade machines are not cheap for a home owner. BYOAC forums encourages diy and repurposing to bring this expensive hobby to the average home owner. I think if you were to sell your existing cabinets as empty cabinet kits, you would get much more sales.

Just my opinion. I hope your kickstarter is successful, whichever direction it leads you.

[crossbred900]

Gravity, I'm the guy that has been asking questions on the Kickstarter page. I figured I'd ask more on here since there's more technical  info being posted. Can your analog buttons be made with 10k resistance? I'd love to use them as the L/R triggers on my hacked 360 pad.
Beyond that one highly wanted use, I couldn't replace all my Seimitsu buttons (with the awesome labels BadMouth made) with analogs though. You've already got a guaranteed sale of 2 analog sticks to me as soon as the Kickstarter is funded, or through website / direct sale if it fails. Can a bat top be used on it? What are its mounting dimensions? Can the bite switch you mentioned be made 10k?

[Gravity123]

I have tested these buttons before with hacked controllers.  The button will read up to 10k, so they will work for your project. 

The joystick pots are 10k and will work as well.  I will have a website up soon for the disability controllers we have been making, should be up in less than 2 weeks.  Most of what we have done has been word of mouth through ablegamers.org, an organization dedicated to video game accessibility.  I have a great amount of respect for what they do, and I do understand what it means to be disabled.  I lost my right leg above the knee a number of years ago, a condition that pales in comparison to SCI.

[Rick]

Whether using crowdfunding sites (Kickstarter, Indiegogo, etc.) to create a business presence or to build a successful business model, I've found that the arcade market in particular is sorely unsuccessful in most endeavours. I've read more than a few campaigns where people wanted to start a barcade or similar, and they've never moved very far.

[Gravity123]

Ok, for those that are still tuned into this, I made the final tweaks.  I changed the pledge levels, included the Xbox 360 for plug and play, and adjusted the content.  Much less "Mancave" focused now.  Thanks again everybody. I plan on launching this week.  I'll post a new thread when it goes live.