CRT Vs LCD for driving cabs

[twistedsymphony]

(this topic was split from flash951's Final Lap thread found here: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,140713.0.html - BadMouth)

Eh crts are over.  As soon as mame got hlsl support to simulate a crt screen, I ran out of excuses to hold on to them.

ASPECT RATIO!
... if you're building a custom cab that's one thing but they don't make 4:3 LCDs over 20" and even if you black barred a wide-screen LCD it wont physically fit inside the a cabinet designed for a CRT unless you're willing to down-size the display area.

With scan-line generators and display lag getting better LCDs are much better candidates for replacing CRT. I'd be willing to give up CRTs in my cabs but the fact remains that if I wanted to install a an LCD in my 25" midway cab, a de-cased widescreen monitor capable of producing a 25" 4:3 image would STILL be about 2" too wide to physically fit in the cabinet.

...on the other hand, the cabinet is big enough that if I wanted to I could up-grade to a 27" CRT.

Not until they start manufacturing 4:3 LCDs will they be a suitable replacement for CRTs in classic arcade machines.

[Howard_Casto]

Which would be a perfectly valid point if we weren't talking about racing games. 

Most modern racing games, even the emulated ones, have a widescreen option.  Anything ran in model 2 can be run widescreen via  bit of scripting.  Anything in model 2, supermodel and demul can be ran at a resolution much higher than a crt via hardware acceleration. 

Also I buy 16:10 (note I didn't say 16:9) monitors and buy them oversized so the "wide" part of the screen goes into the bezel area.  Then you get a screen of the same equivalent 4:3 size.  I've got that in my original mame cab now... it's not as big of a deal as you are making it out to be.  Depending upon the model you might have to de-case it, but we've done worse. 

[flash951]

I've put a 25" 4:3 CRT in both my two cabinets, because it's the biggest than can fit in between. In my opinion, one big benefit using CRT is that it can run all native resolutions, while LCD is only made for one resolution, so everything needs to be scaled and distorted. Another thing with LCD is that the affordable models seems to have small color space, for example, if you have display very light grey og very dark grey, it will turn out as "burned out" white or black. For my work PC, home and office, I use expensive 4:3 21" LCD's, I work with graphic design and has photo as a hobby. Also all affordable LCD has to get calibrated and corrected. I've have an X-rite to calibrate my monitors and make a "correction" color profile on my PC. On CRT I don't bother, it's OK for games already.   


The CRTs I use are only standard resolution 15 khz, still the picture when running 800x600 interlaced on m2 games are just what I consider perfect, pleasant to look at.

[Howard_Casto]

Lol except that the m2 emulator doesn't render at 15khz so your point is invalid.  Native resolutions are also invalid.  Emulators can output any resolution you desire with zero overhead so long as the emulator's render size isn't changed (most have the option to set this).  Also modern video cards and modern lcds handle the "one native resolution" issue just fine via software.  This isn't the year 2000.  I'll take your word for it on the colorspace thing, but considering in terms of racing games you have your choice of 8 bit paletted color or modern racers optimized for lcds anyway I don't see how it would make a heck of a lot of difference.  Again all valid points... if we weren't talking about a racing cab.

I'm not trying to get into an argument, you guys just seem to be taking offense at the fact that crts are over, which they are.  Again I'm not suggesting you throw one out if it's still working, they are a perfectly acceptable monitor, but when it comes time to replace a broken one.....

[flash951]

I agree that some of my arguments are not valid for 3D games and the newer games obviously, of course. I just wanted to share some of my personal experiences and thoughts, and it's not arguments read somewhere else.

[twistedsymphony]

Also I buy 16:10 (note I didn't say 16:9) monitors and buy them oversized so the "wide" part of the screen goes into the bezel area.  Then you get a screen of the same equivalent 4:3 size.  I've got that in my original mame cab now... it's not as big of a deal as you are making it out to be.  Depending upon the model you might have to de-case it, but we've done worse. 

I looked extensively at swapping 16:10 LCDs into my Virtual On cab (which is a Sega twin unit), even with decasing the math flat out doesn't work in terms of getting the same viewable area.

27" 4:3 CRT has a viewable height of 16.25"

16:10 LCD with a viewable height of 16.25" ~ 31" diagonal with a 26" viewable width

...cabinet only has 24" of usable space width wise due to the design of the cabinet's internal structure... and that's if you want to relocate the speakers wich are on either side of the monitor.

I find your comment surprising because I've yet to find a single cabinet who's dimensions are amicable to a wide-screen (even a 16:10) swap without shrinking image height in the process. Racing cabs seem to be even worse than most because they put such large monitors in them to begin with.

[Howard_Casto]

Seriously you are complaining about an inch?  I think with mine it was 0.255 inches smaller, but regardless the benefits far outweigh the one drawback. 

Here's the thing.  Something about this hobby that people don't realize is that these uber large monitors are actually bad for your eyes where we sit so close to them.  In the arcade you are playing for a minute or two, no big deal, but when you are playing for hours at a time your eyes have to dart around to see the whole screen causing eye strain.   I had a 27 inch crammed into my mame cab for a while and couldn't figure out why it was hurting my eyes.  When I later put a 25 inch crt in there I immediately noticed the difference. 

But it doesn't matter... we've derailed flash's post and I'm sorry for that. 

[twistedsymphony]

Seriously you are complaining about an inch? 

You need to check your math 24" of width space in a 16:9 monitor translates to a 24" 4:3 image in what used to be a 27" cab.

I realize you're all about "upgrading" things but when it comes to arcade games, I, and many others are all about making the experience as authentic as possible.

[dkersten]

You are correct about the height, but I agree with Howard on all the other points.  At some point you have to weigh the pros and cons and decide for yourself. 
That is when you take a 48" lcd and turn it vertical and then black out the top and bottom to get the max width and height with all the benefits of an LCD for racing games while still fitting in your 24"wide space, lol.

It really isn't a matter of which is "better", it is a matter of which is "better for you".

[twistedsymphony]

That is when you take a 48" lcd and turn it vertical and then black out the top and bottom to get the max width and height with all the benefits of an LCD for racing games while still fitting in your 24"wide space, lol.

That's rarely a viable solution because on most machines the marquee is directly above the monitor and the steering controls are directly below it. Even on non-racing upright cabs there is usually some substantial cabinet reinforcement directly below the monitor area, or the monitor is angled such that the bottom of such a large monitor would run into the control panel box.

You are correct about the height, but I agree with Howard on all the other points.  At some point you have to weigh the pros and cons and decide for yourself. 
...
It really isn't a matter of which is "better", it is a matter of which is "better for you".

I never said that CRTs were universally better than LCDs, I don't think anyone else in this thread is claiming that either. My only point through this entire discussion has been that in order for LCDs to be a 100% replacement in a cabinet that was designed for a CRT it needs to be in a 4:3 form factor... THATS IT...

fitting a wide-screen LCD into a cabinet designed for a 4:3 CRT has a lot of challenges that usually leaves you with less viewable screen area and/or giant ugly black out bezels. This isn't about the technology, it's purely about using the right parts to fit the cabinet. If they started making 27" 4:3 LCDs tomorrow I'd order a 6 of them and retrofit half my arcade collection. Widescreen monitors simply wont fit properly most cabs (ei: in a way that looks factory, and form-fit to the cab)... flash951's cab included.

[dkersten]

It is arguable that any time you replace the guts of an arcade you have already sacrificed "originality" and you no longer can truly stand on the argument of a "100%" replacement.   

It's like saying that you HAVE to use the original tires and wheels on that 67 mustang you are restoring, even though you put a Chevy 350 motor and drive train in it.  Your argument can't be won because it is a matter of taste and opinion.

I wasn't trying to fuel the argument, just to point out that this is a very subjective choice and it is what matters most to you that will decide which way you should go. 

Personally I think that the height of the "play field" is the only factor that would influence my decision any more.  And with most race games supporting wider aspect ratios (and in some cases requiring it), it isn't as clear of a decision as it might be if you were making a reproduction of one specific arcade game.  I am with you on buying and using 4:3 27" LCD's though, for anything arcade that is what I would pick first if it existed, but it doesn't, so you compromise. 

[BadMouth]

I had a CRT TV in the old driving cab connected via S-video and it was a blast to play.
The next incarnation (if it's ever completed) will use an LCD or three.

With the CRT TV, it did feel more authentic and gave me the same feeling as playing in the arcade.
PC games up through about 2005-2006 also looked and played great on it (old NFS series, Outrun C2C).
On newer games I felt like I was at a disadvantage because of not being able to see as far into turns.
They're still playable, but that and the widescreen support in Model 2/3 are my main reasons for moving on.

LCDs aren't without their issues.  The screen blur bugs me sometimes and screen tearing is just obnoxious.
The tearing can usually be fixed with vsync, but not always.

In the end, it's a personal decision.  Given the choice between a 4:3 monitor and 16:9 monitor of the same width at the same distance, I'd probably choose the 4:3 for the sake of having more screen area in my field of view.

[DGP]

23.1 4:3 LCD...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PLANAR-WS231-23-1-LCD-1600x1200-with-Power-Cord-/231159641244?pt=Computer_Monitors&hash=item35d230349c

 

Jason

[Howard_Casto]

Nice find. 

I kind of get by twistedsymphony's response that he thinks lcds should be a drop in replacement.  Yeah that's not what I meant.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  It takes a lot of work to retro-fit a lcd into a classic cab, you are going to have to ditch the bezel and make a custom one, you might have to relocate the speakers, ect.  My point though was at least for a general purpose racing cab, it's well worth it. 

I mean this is all personal preference in terms of what games you like, but for me (and I'm thinking a lot of people) classic arcade racers don't hold up as well as more modern racing games.  In terms of the old stuff, that is going to be in 4:3 in mame, you've got Outrun and it's sequels, maybe the Crus'n games, Ridge racer and that's about it.  Yeah there are some other classics, but they either need a optical wheel, or you won't play for more than 2-3 minutes at a time.  In terms of arcade stuff, what most people (myself included) want to play is model 2 and beyond.  Well all of those games support widescreen. 

It isn't just an aesthetic change either.... when you switch to 16:9 you can see more to the left and the right, they don't crop out the sky but rather widen the horizon.  It effects gameplay.  I'm not trying to be "that guy" but while you might get more image on a 4:3 in the same space, a lot of that image might not actually be useful for gameplay. 

And even putting those aside you are going to want to play at least some pc games on your rig and because the draw distance and everything else expect a widescreen, high-resolution monitor it would probably be worth it to upgrade for that single game if you like it enough. 

I guess what I'm saying is for a general purpose mame cab chances are 90% of what you'll play on it are actual arcade games that ran on a low resolution, 4:3 monitor.  On a racing cab it's typically more general purpose use.  The time spent playing 4:3 games on it might be less than 30%. 

[dkersten]

That Planar 4:3 is easily the biggest 4:3 LCD available , but it has 2 big problems.  First, that bezel is nearly 2 inches wide on each side.  Second, they are out of production and hard to find one without bad pixels.  But if you are limited to under 24" of width, you won't get a taller LCD. (it is taller than a 16:10 24" panel by just over an inch)

If your cab is 25" or wider you can get a 27" LCD and then you are splitting hairs as the difference in height is negligible, and quality and availability are worlds better.

[Malenko]

If your cab is 25" or wider you can get a 27" LCD and then you are splitting hairs as the difference in height is negligible, and quality and availability are worlds better.

Nooooooooope.  I have a 28" LCD in my MK Cab, and even though it fill more horizontally by like 4 inches, its still smaller vertically than the 25" CRT that came with it from the factory:


The bezel lines up almost perfectly with the wood on the sides of the cab for the glass rest.

http://www.nicetaco.com/tv.aspx

generically speaking:
25" 4:3 TV is just under 20" wide and a ball hair over 15" tall
28" 16:9 TV is about 24 1/2" wide and about 13 3/4" tall
Also, it means my 28" LCD will display a 4:3 source at 18.2" wide and 13.7" tall, which is smaller than a 25" monitor (mathematically speaking, its about the same as a 23" 4:3 monitor)

so that means even though its over 4 1/2" wider its still over an inch shorter.  All that being said, I went LCD for this build for a ton of reasons.  Takes up less room in the cab, I can fake the CRT effects close enough with some filters , lighter, and the LCD was easy to find cheaply.  I have a medium res 27" arcade monitor I *almost* put in there. But its just going to live its life as a spare for the faster than speed cab. peep the nicetaco link, it really makes the math easier.

[dkersten]

Sorry I was referring to strictly LCD's, the Planar 23.1" is negligibly taller than the 27" 16:9 LCD, and I think you can find 27" 16:10 screens that are taller.

 I agree that you can get a taller 4:3 when you go CRT, but for that argument I default to what Howard is saying about racing games in particular.  The only optical game I will spend any time playing is Championship Sprint, and I don't have any nostalgic memories of playing it with scanlines.. When I build my sit down racer, I will primarily play more modern games that take advantage of higher res monitors, widescreen, and even 3 screen setups.  Anything I play with that setup that looked better on a CRT will still be "good enough" for me.

But then I am not a hardcore CRT fan.  I see them as heavy, expensive, and unreliable.  Sure, I would love to build one cabinet exclusively for the "ultra classic" arcade games that uses a CRT, but aside from that I am perfectly happy with using LCD's.

[Malenko]

I need to stress again that Im actively using a LCD in my MAME rig ,lol.


As for racing cabs, I think if you can use an LCD and it doesnt affect the game much, then great, use it.  I cant use on in my faster than speed cab because I'll loose a bunch of vertical real estate. And while its true a lot of games support widescreen format (like the model 2 stuff and even virtua racing) if you have one of those cabs like mine that are dedicated you'll have large bezels to hide the difference in screen height. If you are rolling your own cab (PUN!) then I sya go for the LCD


I have a sim driving rig (cheapie Playseat and a Fanatec Forza Wheel and Pedal combo), that I also use to play MAME/Model 2 on, its hooked up to a wide screen TV. Its great, but its not a cab

[flash951]

In my Final Lap cab, it's only 19" inch originally, the original monitor had a good picture so I suspect it must have been replaced once because of the bad state the rest of the cab was in. So a 16:9 widescreen had been an easy fit in that particular cab, if the original monitor went broke. But I went for the biggest CRT I could fit, and it was a struggle to mount, because of the limited space, in addition the first 25" CRT TV tube I mounted was bad and had to be replaced. I had to make custom mount for the TV picture tube and make the "behind the glass" bezels and cut out a new glass with an outside bezel anyway, in my case.

[Howard_Casto]

If your cab is 25" or wider you can get a 27" LCD and then you are splitting hairs as the difference in height is negligible, and quality and availability are worlds better.

Nooooooooope.  I have a 28" LCD in my MK Cab, and even though it fill more horizontally by like 4 inches, its still smaller vertically than the 25" CRT that came with it from the factory:


The bezel lines up almost perfectly with the wood on the sides of the cab for the glass rest.

http://www.nicetaco.com/tv.aspx

generically speaking:
25" 4:3 TV is just under 20" wide and a ball hair over 15" tall
28" 16:9 TV is about 24 1/2" wide and about 13 3/4" tall
Also, it means my 28" LCD will display a 4:3 source at 18.2" wide and 13.7" tall, which is smaller than a 25" monitor (mathematically speaking, its about the same as a 23" 4:3 monitor)

so that means even though its over 4 1/2" wider its still over an inch shorter.  All that being said, I went LCD for this build for a ton of reasons.  Takes up less room in the cab, I can fake the CRT effects close enough with some filters , lighter, and the LCD was easy to find cheaply.  I have a medium res 27" arcade monitor I *almost* put in there. But its just going to live its life as a spare for the faster than speed cab. peep the nicetaco link, it really makes the math easier.

Going by your own math that you posted.  That's a difference of 1.25 inches or two diagonal inches, which is negligible.  Also that's a 16:9... you were supposed to get a 16:10.    If you put a 30 inch 16:10 in a 27 inch space the difference is only half an inch.  Also if you can manage to find an inch and a quarter extra space in the width you can cram a 32 incher in there and it'll actually be slightly larger in 4:3 mode than the 27 incher.  I'm not saying that 16:10 displays are easy to come by, you have to hunt around, but they are worth the extra effort. 

From your comment I also think that you don't get what I meant about widescreen mode.  When a game supports both modes, widescreen mode doesn't crop the sky and foreground to make the 16:9 aspect, rather it extends the left and right of the horizon.  So no, even if the screen is physically smaller, you see MORE in widescreen mode. 

[Malenko]

From your comment I also think that you don't get what I meant about widescreen mode.  When a game supports both modes, widescreen mode doesn't crop the sky and foreground to make the 16:9 aspect, rather it extends the left and right of the horizon.  So no, even if the screen is physically smaller, you see MORE in widescreen mode.

I know what widescreen mode is, I play virtua racing and the like in widescreen mode on my current set up (as stated above). My comment was directed more at the gaps above and below the monitor that most dedicated cabs have when they replace the 3:4 CRT with a widescreen monitor. I cant seem to locate a 16:10 calculator that gives all the info I need.  I personally dont feel that over an inch of vertical loss is "negligible".

I dont feel that you can paint replacing a CRT with an LCD with such a wide brush, its more of a case by case thing. I also stated that if youre rollin your own (aka building your own) cab then LCD is the way to go. 

[SailorSat]

Guys you serious about border space?
Take a 16/10 and install it vertical... Most cabinets have more than enough space on top and bottom anyway ^^

[Malenko]

Guys you serious about border space?
Take a 16/10 and install it vertical... Most cabinets have more than enough space on top and bottom anyway ^^

then how do you rotate the signal from the PCB?

[Howard_Casto]

PCB?

Dude we are talking about mame.  How come every time you are losing an argument you bring up pcbs? 

[Malenko]

PCB?

Dude we are talking about mame.  How come every time you are losing an argument you bring up pcbs? 

Meh, if its strictly MAME (err Model 2) then an LCD is probably the better choice, depending on the cab. A 16:10 wouldn't fit vertically in my FTS cab (no room with the steering below, and no room above with the way the marquee is in the cab) . a 16:10 and or 16:9 horizontally would loose a ton of real estate vertically.


Now that being said, the monitor that's in there would be pretty hard to replace (cost effectively, its a Tri-Sync) and if the cab was gutted I would probably find a way to make the LCD work. In fact if this cab dies or becomes a giant pain in ---my bottom---, I will put an LCD in there and find a way to interface the steering.


Note: if you quote me, remove the pic link, its distracting :*

[twistedsymphony]

I kind of get by twistedsymphony's response that he thinks lcds should be a drop in replacement.  Yeah that's not what I meant.  Nothing could be further from the truth. ...

I'm not saying it should be a drop-in replacement. even swapping CRTs isn't a drop in replacement because the mounting brackets are rarely in the same location model to model there are different depth clearances etc.

All I'm saying is that I want the LCDs to have the same available visible area as the CRT it's replacing... that's it.

I don't know how no one seems to understand the point I'm trying to make, I went back and re-read the first post I made in this thread and seems like I was perfectly clear on the point I was trying to make there...

Someone brought up an analogy of restoring a car and keeping the original factory tires. That's ridiculous, and if they think that's what I'm arguing they've completely missed my point. To use that analogy All I want is to replace the original tires with new tires that are the same size...  but instead the only "tires" on the market are complete wrong and the only ones that fit are too small.

----------------

I find it laughable that the ONLY point I've been trying to make through this whole discussion is that I dislike that Widescreen LCDs (even after substantial modifications) don't properly fit in old cabs... that seems to be the only thing that everyone agrees on and yet everyone is providing opinions regarding image quality and "tastes" yet not ONCE has anyone in this thread even argued that CRTs are better in that regard.

[twistedsymphony]

Guys you serious about border space?
Take a 16/10 and install it vertical... Most cabinets have more than enough space on top and bottom anyway ^^

Show me 1 sit-down racing cab that has enough space to mount a 44" LCD vertically (what you'd need to produce a 27" 4:3 image) without the screen interfering with the marquee or poking out the top of the cab, or interfering with the  steering wheel electronics or poking out the bottom of the cab into your knees.


I can save you some trouble because I've already measured it out in a Sega Twin unit and in a Midway/Atari Style driving cab (San Fran Rush), it doesn't even come close to working in either of those unless you're willing to cut a hole in the top or bottom of the cab for it to stick out.

[Malenko]

amen twisted.

[yotsuya]

amen twisted.

Amen x2 Twisted!

[dkersten]

Twisted, I do get exactly what you are saying.  And I don't disagree that when it comes to useable screen size in a classic arcade game, a 4:3 is the way to go, and since the largest 4:3 LCD you can get is only 23.1 inches, if the cabinet had a 25-27" CRT, you would be compromising by using an LCD.  I don't think anyone is disputing this.  And when you already have a CRT to replace it with, it is a "no-brainer".  I believe the question is one of acceptability and of what you can GAIN from using an LCD.

However, the analogy about using the original tires on a classic car, while not perfect, still stands.  Those original tires might be period correct, they might even aesthetically look best to someone who appreciates the car in it's original form.  But they are very difficult to come by, and don't have the advantages that a modern tire has. 

And the other side of that analogy holds as well:  If you have already modified the car for performance reasons and it is no longer "original", what is the point in keeping the exterior of the car "original" too, particularly if it degrades performance?

Bottom line: If need to replace your 25-27" CRT in a racing cab, and already modified the cab in other ways (ie to use emulators to run multiple games), then the ONLY thing you are losing with an LCD is some vertical real estate, and the gains of an LCD may outweigh that aspect.  Hence, it is an acceptable solution even to some of the "hardcore CRT lovers". 

[Malenko]

However, the analogy about using the original tires on a classic car, while not perfect, still stands.  Those original tires might be period correct, they might even aesthetically look best to someone who appreciates the car in it's original form.  But they are very difficult to come by, and don't have the advantages that a modern tire has. 

No X2, it doesnt. Your version of the analogy makes no sense, his does. Your performance one, makes even less sense (did I mention I'm a gearhead too?)

He is saying that he'd be more more inclined to replace a CRT with an LCD if they made a bigger 4:3 LCD, how is that so hard to understand?

You are saying "you lose vertical screen size with a widescreen LCD, that's no big deal"
He is saying "you lose vertical screen size with a widescreen LCD, that's a big deal"

We all understand your perspective, do you understand ours?

[ed12]

i beg u guy's to look at rickn company
they make a exact drop in lcd for 90% of the driving cab's
4:3 to be exact

ed

[Malenko]

i beg u guy's to look at rickn company
they make a exact drop in lcd for 90% of the driving cab's
4:3 to be exact

ed

This is just a post for the sake of debate, me thinks. 

[ed12]

no i think not
www.niemandisplays.com/
go look for yourself

ed

[Malenko]

no i think not
www.niemandisplays.com/
go look for yourself

ed

this thread in general, I know about nieman. Also:

Sizes vary depending on availability... please inquire.
Aspect ratio varies based on size...
Greater than 19" 16:9 aspact ratio.
Less than 19" 4:3 aspect ratio but may be available in16:9 - Please inquire!!

[dkersten]

However, the analogy about using the original tires on a classic car, while not perfect, still stands.  Those original tires might be period correct, they might even aesthetically look best to someone who appreciates the car in it's original form.  But they are very difficult to come by, and don't have the advantages that a modern tire has. 

No X2, it doesnt. Your version of the analogy makes no sense, his does. Your performance one, makes even less sense (did I mention I'm a gearhead too?)

A) I am NOT X2, please don't insult me like that. I made the original analogy.
B) The analogy makes perfect sense.  If you have ever hung out with "car guys" there will always be those "restoration snobs" who insist that if you don't use the original bias ply tires, you don't have a restored car, you have a modified car and it doesn't belong with the truly "restored" cars.  The MAJORITY of arguments about CRT's vs. LCD's have to do with maintaining the original look of the arcade game.  The "CRT snobs" who will go with a CRT under ANY circumstances and argue it over an LCD until blue in the face are just like those "restoration snobs".  The original analogy was aimed at the idea that you have to keep the arcade cabinet "original" when in fact everything inside was already replaced, and the cabinet will be used for other games.  It is like putting bias ply tires on your 67 mustang when you already put a non-stock motor in it.  But I also believe that the analogy holds with your argument as well.  Those same snobs will ignore the fact that modern tires have enough advantages to outweigh the few advantages of sticking with a CRT.  By ignoring the facts that Howard has elaborated on regarding racing games, AND ignoring that you already have a modified cabinet, you are indeed sticking bias ply tires on your 67 mustang that is already modified and saying that you have a reason for it that trumps all other reasons.  It may not be the reason I used the analogy to begin with, but it still fits.

If you don't get the analogy, then you have never met a car guy who is anal about originality to the same point that some CRT fans are anal about arcades.  Personally, I could care less.  I only entered this argument to say that BOTH sides are right, that you can't get the vertical space with an LCD, but that Howard has a very good point in that you don't really NEED it in racing games, and that you can gain a LOT with an LCD because you can take advantage of modern improvements to even the older games.

He is saying that he'd be more more inclined to replace a CRT with an LCD if they made a bigger 4:3 LCD, how is that so hard to understand?

It isn't, I was pretty specific when I agreed that when dealing with a 25-27" CRT you cannot get the same vertical real estate as you can with any LCD.  I don't dispute it..

You are saying "you lose vertical screen size with a widescreen LCD, that's no big deal"
He is saying "you lose vertical screen size with a widescreen LCD, that's a big deal"

No, I said that you lose height and have to decide for yourself if that outweighs the pros/cons.  And I said specifically that with a 24" 16:10 LCD you lose an inch over a 23.1" 4:3 LCD, in response to someone posting the 23.1" Planar LCD, which is the biggest 4:3 LCD available.  I never said that it was OK to lose an inch, Howard did, but I did agree that "FOR ME" losing an inch of height to gain 3 inches of width is acceptable for race games.  And Howard's argument was in response to the argument of losing an inch vertically and NOT GAINING ANYTHING HORIZONTALLY;  and argument that is NOT completely true in racing games - most widescreen modes add more screen, not just stretch the existing.

In case it isn't perfectly clear:  I do not dispute that you cannot get the same vertical height with an LCD as you can with a CRT given that you are restricted to 24-25" of width.

We all understand your perspective, do you understand ours?

Perfectly.  And if the ONLY thing you care about is the height of the screen, then all other arguments are invalid because things like resolution, quality, price, availability, ease of use, wider game views, and the ability to play modern racing games are all unimportant to you.

I always read this thread (and the one it came from) as an argument about whether it is OK to replace a CRT with an LCD in a racing cabinet, not as whether a CRT has more height than an LCD of the same width.  If that had been the whole argument, then it didn't deserve a new thread.  Nobody can dispute it.

[Malenko]

A)you cant say you arent X2 then reply with a wall of text. 


My points are:
Not all racing games support widescreen mode
Most racing cabs don't allow for a very large widescreen monitor (some however DO)
Its impossible to mount a widescreen monitor vertically in a racing cab and have it fill the same space of screen real estate as a 27" 4:3 which also means if even if you could, you are limited to emulation only.
Your analogy is not only terrible, its unneeded.

Ive also stated using an LCD should be done on a cab by cab basis, and that if you are designing a cab and not retrofitting, an LCD is the better choice.
feel free to counter point, but lets leave the Xhaolin toe stabs to the pros 

[dkersten]

I don't disagree with your points, other than the analogy thing but whatever, if you don't agree it isn't going to make me cry, lol.

well, that and the insult of calling me X2.. I didn't go off on a tangent involving martial arts, and I don't think that my opinions are fact.  I DID expand on my analogy only because I wasn't sure you understood what my point was.  And I am sure that some people get it.

So your reasons for using bias ply tires CRT's are all valid, and I still believe that Howards reasons not to are valid as well.  And I hope we can all agree that one benefit of using large CRT's is that you can get more height than an LCD the same width, and put that one to bed.   

[Malenko]

I'd never call anyone X2 in a mean way, not even X2.

[yotsuya]

All I know is that if the 4:3 CRT in my racing cab dies, I'm either replacing with another CRT or it's GTFO.