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Author Topic: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request  (Read 9219 times)

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TorgoHiggins

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Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« on: August 15, 2014, 12:47:15 am »
Salutations, folks.

Heaven help me, I'm going to try building a small cab. I know my way around pc parts a little bit, and zero woodworking skills. I DO, however, have access to all the necessary tools and workshop space, as well as expertise to tap for general construction advice and help. The goal, such as it could be called, is to build something that looks decent for as cheaply as possible (you know, as opposed to building something that looks like crap for as much money as possible). This is as much about doing and learning as it is about wanting an arcade cabinet, perhaps moreso. The tentative goal is a small-ish bartop. I want the screen to be a decent size, but probably no bigger then 17". Smaller/cheaper would be better. It must be LCD, for weight considerations if nothing else.

Speaking of, I live in Hawaii, so size/weight of parts and shipping cost are a huge deal. Always. All the time.

But before I can even think about the outside, I have to consider the innards. I picked up an old Jetway Mini-ITX board on the cheap. It comes with an embedded, passively cooled 1.2ghz processor; It needn't be powerful, just functional. If all it does it run an old NES emulator I'll be happy with it. The trouble is, I'm not 100% sure where to go from there. I've never put together a pc from scratch, so I'm driving a little blind here. I know I still need:

- A power supply
- RAM
- Hard Drive
- Some sort of removable media (I have a usb cd/dvd drive on the way)

Does this more or less complete a list for barebones PC hardware? It sounds right, but again, this is uncharted territory for me. Furthermore, anyone have recommendations on power supply? I see lots of voltages and numbers, stuff with fans, PicoPSUs for mini-itx boards that DON'T have fans. It's a little intimidating. What do I need, and moreover, what do I want?

For the arcade controls themselves I was considering simply springing for the X-Arcade DIY kit, since it seems straightforward and should be relatively free of any compatibility issues.

A few other notes:
- I will be installing WinXP Home on this system.
- The specs on the motherboard.
- I'm as yet undecided if it's going to be one or two players.
- The smaller, cooler, and less power consumed the better.

Any advice is appreciated. Hearty laughs at my ignorance will be less so, but understandable. :) Thanks!

dkersten

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2014, 01:21:00 am »
I am sure others will offer up all kinds of good information, but I will throw in a couple things to think about:
First, you may find you have better luck with older builds of mame when running that setup.  Some people say that even going back only as far as .147 gives something like 20-30% improvement in performance on many games over the current .154.. I haven't experimented myself because I am not using a slower processor, but it is certainly worth looking into...

Before building your controls, I would spend some time setting up mame on the computer, and play some games to see what you really want out of it.  Ideally, build your game list and then go from there.  You might find that you really want a solid 4-way joystick, or that you only care about 3 buttons and not 6 or 8.  You might find you really want a trackball or spinner or both.  You might find that you don't care about simultaneous 2 player games, and can get away with a single player control panel. 

For that motherboard, unless you are putting it in a case that has a fan, I would install a fan to blow some air on it.  Once cooped up in that cabinet, without active cooling on the processor, it might start to get rather warm.  A basic 120mm fan running at 5v should be more than enough to keep it cool.  Just remember to put vents at the top and bottom of the cabinet so the heat can escape and pull in cool air in the process.

I am sure others will comment on the x-arcade controller.  If you are going to play any vs. fighters, I would listen to the advice you will get.  Also read the wiki, it is very valuable when just getting started.

Finally, even as cheap as you can keep it, you will get nickel and dimed on this, so pay attention to your hardware store runs, it adds up fast.  My first cab had a $1700 budget and I am at around $2600 now.. doesn't take long.

Good luck!

PL1

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2014, 01:57:33 am »
Welcome aboard, TorgoHiggins.   ;D

You may want to read the FAQ to help you work through the design process and identify many of the "unknown unknown" factors. (a.k.a. "I need to know how to do what to make this cab look/work right??"  :lol)

For an overview of the woodworking skills needed to build a cab, check out this wiki entry condensed from Ond's Main Forum sticky thread.

On the subject of choosing controls and hardware, you might want to read up on the "6-button USB limit" of the X-Arcade encoder.

There is a workaround for that limit mentioned here, but you still have separate grounds for each connector which adds complexity to the wiring.   :dunno

Take your time researching and configuring the software like Dkersten mentioned and planning things out before you start ordering parts since you'll almost certainly end up ordering from multiple vendors.

Make a bookmark folder for threads that mention useful info and vendors/products that look promising.

Be sure to check out Ultimarc, GroovyGameGear, Paradise Arcade Shop in Waimanalo, and the many other vendors you'll find mentioned in various build threads.

Andy (AndyWarne), Randy (RandyT), and Bryan (armi0024) -- the respective proprietors of these three businesses -- are regulars around here on the BYOAC Forums.


Scott
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 02:00:10 am by PL1 »

TorgoHiggins

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2014, 12:44:35 am »
Thanks for the tips guys!

I've decided I'm going to put the system in a case of it's own. I found a nice compact mini-itx case with lots of ventilation and a power supply for forty bucks. As nice as the idea of mounting the hardware is, this very neatly solves a lot of the power issues and some of the ventilation issues, though there will still be the matter of cutting some vents into the cab itself. Plus now I can more easily get the system setup and running before I start work on the cab itself. :) I picked up a cheap stick-o-ram as well. I think all that leaves is a hard drive and maybe some various cables.

Is going with a solid state drive worth the expense? The going rate for an 80gb on ebay seems to be between 30-40 dollars, which sounds decent enough. The case I'm getting has space for 3.5" or 2.5" hard discs though, which I wasn't originally planning on. I might just save the bucks and buy a small 3.5" drive.

TorgoHiggins

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2014, 06:22:20 pm »
So while I'm still waiting on the pc bits to arrive, I'm starting to noodle the cabinet side of things. The main thing I'm really roiling over is the screen. I know I want a flat-panel, but man I'm limited on options. Getting a screen second-hand on ebay is pretty much not an option: Most don't ship to Hawaii, and those that do will shaft me with parcel post (six week shipping time and who knows what kind of arrival condition). Amazon has a couple Acer 4:3 models with free shipping, but the starting rate is $100 for a 17". I'm willing to spend a hundred bucks (which I realize compared to a proper arcade monitor is still cheaping out), but if I can avoid it I will.

Out of curiousity, is there anyway to buy a laptop screen and use that? For example: There's a 15.4" wxga screen for $52~. The screen size is actually pretty close to what I had in mind for a first project, and the price is right. Are there options out there to hook something like this up?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 06:23:55 pm by TorgoHiggins »

PL1

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2014, 06:37:37 pm »
Check Craigslist for local deals.

Also you may want to look into this thread for coupon codes for off-lease monitors and computers from Arrow Direct -- not sure if their shipping costs to Hawaii are reasonable, though.   :dunno


Scott

JDFan

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2014, 06:44:20 pm »
Check Craigslist for local deals.

Also you may want to look into this thread for coupon codes for off-lease monitors and computers from Arrow Direct -- not sure if their shipping costs to Hawaii are reasonable, though.   :dunno


Scott

Looks like they ship to HI for the same flat rate as the rest of the US $8.99 !

TorgoHiggins

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2014, 06:53:05 pm »
Hot dang, thanks for that link, PL1. They'll ship me a monitor for less then ten bucks! :applaud: I'll take a b-grade refurb for that price fo sho.

This project just got a lot cheaper. I was prepared for the screen to be the most expensive component!

dkersten

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2014, 06:53:49 pm »
You would have a heck of a headache trying to hack a laptop monitor to work in a cab.. not worth the effort.
I wouldn't go smaller than 19" personally, a 17 or 15 looks tiny in even a small cab.

I have 6 4:3 19's sitting on my shelf I would sell for $40 each if you can find cheap shipping from 59101.  They won't fit in a flat rate box though as far as I can tell.  Sounds like that Arrow Direct place would be better for you anyway, especially if they can do the $9 flat rate box.

TorgoHiggins

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2014, 07:02:36 pm »
I wouldn't go smaller than 19" personally, a 17 or 15 looks tiny in even a small cab.
I was honestly starting to think that myself. I have a 15" as a second monitor on my system, and well... yeah.

JDFan

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2014, 07:03:31 pm »
Hot dang, thanks for that link, PL1. They'll ship me a monitor for less then ten bucks! :applaud: I'll take a b-grade refurb for that price fo sho.

This project just got a lot cheaper. I was prepared for the screen to be the most expensive component!

Just remember to put in the Coupon code "Dealnews" -- right now it gets you half off the already 30% off on monitors and systems so worth the effort to type in !!!!

They have an IPS panel 20" Dell 2001FP that's a 4:3 20" monitor for $58 - $29 with the code + $9 shipping makes it about $40 for a good IPS panel flatscreen with 178 degree viewing angles and great picture quality.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 07:09:36 pm by JDFan »

TorgoHiggins

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2014, 07:24:45 pm »
Thanks for the recommendation! I'll have to nab an adapter since my motherboard only has vga, but that's cheap enough to pick up.

edit: never mind, reread the spec sheet and saw it does have vga input. I'm good to go. ;D
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 07:27:18 pm by TorgoHiggins »

bulbousbeard

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2014, 11:55:25 pm »
Don't buy one of those crappy old 4:3 LCDs. Just get the new 27" G-Sync monitor that's coming out THIS WEEK.

Do you REALLY want to play every game at the wrong speed or with stuttering? G-Sync is the only acceptable LCD solution right now.

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2014, 12:59:52 am »
Don't buy one of those crappy old 4:3 LCDs. Just get the new 27" G-Sync monitor that's coming out THIS WEEK.

Do you REALLY want to play every game at the wrong speed or with stuttering? G-Sync is the only acceptable LCD solution right now.

He said he wants to make a small cabinet.

Oh, and there's nothing wrong with a 4:3. I'd do a 19" or 20.1" all day long over a widescreen.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2014, 01:21:22 am »
Measure a 19" 4:3 compared to a 24" wide screen.. they are nearly identical for playable size in any mame game. 

Is the asus ROG g-sync coming out finally?  Great idea but aside from FPS games, not going to make a single bit of difference, lol.  I was going to go with it, and if it had come out 4 months ago I would already have it for my main gaming PC.. but priorities change, and they missed out on one sale (and I imagine a few others who had time to second guess a $700 27" monitor)..

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2014, 01:28:45 am »
Measure a 19" 4:3 compared to a 24" wide screen.. they are nearly identical for playable size in any mame game. 

Is the asus ROG g-sync coming out finally?  Great idea but aside from FPS games, not going to make a single bit of difference, lol.  I was going to go with it, and if it had come out 4 months ago I would already have it for my main gaming PC.. but priorities change, and they missed out on one sale (and I imagine a few others who had time to second guess a $700 27" monitor)..

Everything I want to play fits perfectly on a 4:3. Everything else is wasted space for the money. I don't play PC games or widescreen games on my cabs, so why spend the extra money when I can get a perfectly working 4:3 for under $50?  :dunno
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2014, 07:53:41 am »
4:3 LCD monitors are fine for gaming, especially if the goal is older non-widescreen console/arcade games.   I've used old Dell and Samsung monitors and they've worked out well.  You can sometimes snag them for free from businesses recycling old monitors.

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2014, 10:24:59 am »
Seriously, are you incapable of reading?

It isn't about the size.

Repeat with me: A ---smurfy--- STANDARD LCD WILL STUTTER IN BASICALLY EVERY GAME IN MAME BECAUSE BASICALLY EVERY GAME IN MAME DOESN'T RUN AT 60hz.

So you think that stuttering is fine? You like stuttering or tearing? Sounds like a great arcade experience. You think that running every game glass smooth at its native refresh rate doesn't make a difference? Stop spreadi1ng misinformation when you have no idea what you're talking about.

G-Sync is the ONLY way I'd use an LCD in a cabinet. Otherwise, a CRT with GroovyMAME is the answer. It is NOT acceptable to run games at the wrong refresh rate with stuttering.

GEEZUS

Oh, and it isn't 24". It's 27".

AND you're completely ignoring the fact that the only way an LCD is going to look good is by using HLSL at a very high resolution, which a ---smurfy--- old 4:3 is incapable of running at.

I'm not sure if it's ignorance, cheapness, or both.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 10:28:27 am by bulbousbeard »

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2014, 10:47:12 am »
I'm not sure if it's ignorance, cheapness, or both.

Talk about ignorance... you can tweak your individual game .ini files to eliminate tearing. I do it all the time, especially with side-scrollers. I also don't run HLSL because, quite frankly, I don't feel like I need to fake myself out and pretend that I'm using a CRT when I'm not. If I want to use a CRT, I'll use a CRT.

Yeah, I know, you wrote an super awesome HD front end based on the best game EVAR for your widescreen 70 inch G-FORCE Ultra-plasma LCD....blah blah blah. Meh. Some people just like playing games, dude.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2014, 11:08:09 am »
Seriously, are you incapable of reading?

It isn't about the size.

Repeat with me: A ---smurfy--- STANDARD LCD WILL STUTTER IN BASICALLY EVERY GAME IN MAME BECAUSE BASICALLY EVERY GAME IN MAME DOESN'T RUN AT 60hz.

So you think that stuttering is fine? You like stuttering or tearing? Sounds like a great arcade experience. You think that running every game glass smooth at its native refresh rate doesn't make a difference? Stop spreadi1ng misinformation when you have no idea what you're talking about.

G-Sync is the ONLY way I'd use an LCD in a cabinet. Otherwise, a CRT with GroovyMAME is the answer. It is NOT acceptable to run games at the wrong refresh rate with stuttering.

GEEZUS

Oh, and it isn't 24". It's 27".

AND you're completely ignoring the fact that the only way an LCD is going to look good is by using HLSL at a very high resolution, which a ---smurfy--- old 4:3 is incapable of running at.

I'm not sure if it's ignorance, cheapness, or both.

Sorry.. I don't understand ass... can someone translate?

Seriously, you're not going to convince anyone with an ass attitude like that. For the $1000 or more investment required for the monitor plus compatible video card, I can build an entire MAME system from the ground up WITH a true arcade monitor.

Sorry.....

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2014, 11:14:44 am »
No, you can't "tweak" your way out of it. You have three options with a 60hz LCD:

1) Run the game with V-Sync on at its native refresh rate and get stuttering.
2) Run the game with V-Sync off at its native refresh rate and get tearing.
3) Force the game to run at 60hz and deal with the game running at the wrong speed (too fast or too slow), the sound being at the wrong pitch, and occasionally garbled sound.

You can do things with a high resolution LCD that you can't do with an arcade monitor. Playing Ultra Street Fighter IV at 1440p is one of them.

Running every game at the same resolution so your cabinet doesn't WIG OUT every time it has to change resolutions is another one.

MAME with good HLSL settings looks better on an LCD than MAME without HLSL. Period.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 11:20:57 am by bulbousbeard »

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2014, 11:16:09 am »
Also, I don't really consider the extra horizontal real estate on 16:9 monitors "wasted" when you can use it to include some of awesome bezel art that games had.

https://436e85e1-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/bigbluefrontend/guhguh.png

Yeah!

Yeeeeaaaaahh!

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2014, 11:30:36 am »
Option 3 using GroovyMAME (without CRT_Emudriver) and HLSL (http://wiki.arcadeotaku.com/w/File:Mame_hlsl_jezze_cools.zip) works pretty well, it's what I use on my laptop for testing. Better than baseline as the sound doesn't mess up. You definitely want as high a resolution and quality panel as you can get though - the more lines the better.

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2014, 11:35:29 am »
The problem with syncrefresh is that anything that runs below 58hz is going to sound like this:


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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2014, 11:41:48 am »
Ok, we're all wrong, those of us who have been doing it this way for years. Let me take my 50 inch Samsung LCD TV and figure out a way to cram it into my cab so I can play Lock N' Chase in SUPAR HIGH DEF!
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2014, 11:49:14 am »
Oh GOD. 50" TV? WOW that's a lot of input lag (and 1080p isn't enough resolution).

Calling the cabinet cops.

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2014, 11:55:21 am »
Dude, I'm tired of you. Go wait for your G-Sync to come from Newegg and leave the rest of us fossils alone to play Pac-Man while you play Ultra Super Street Fighter IX.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2014, 12:05:32 pm »
If your on a budget and don't care if it only runs an nes emulator, just get a raspberry pi. Purchasing one will be cheaper than finishing your computer build that is mediocre anyways.

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2014, 12:13:03 pm »
The problem with syncrefresh is that anything that runs below 58hz is going to sound like this:



It's not that bad. Preferable to stuttering or tearing.

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2014, 12:27:33 pm »
X2 made your argument a few weeks ago bulbousbeard, you and him should get together for coffee, looks like you would get along perfectly.  The FACT is, I have been gaming on LCD's for over a decade and I can assure you that it works just fine.  I am not entirely sure what your argument is now, you seem to be arguing both FOR LCD's in gaming and against them.  But here are some counters to your points:

1) V-sync doesn't cause stuttering unless your video card can't maintain 60 fps, and frankly if you are looking for perfection in a game, you will NEVER get it below 60 fps. 
2) Screen tearing will only happen if your framerate drops below 60 fps, with v-sync on.   
3) You are mixing up the frequency of frames from the old analogue signals with what a digital rendering will do.  Mame won't speed up the game to output 60 frames per second to achieve v-sync, the video card will just upscale the number of frames to get it above 60, just like it will do when watching a 24 fps blu ray or viewing a static picture on your screen.  It is when your video card can't process those frames to begin with that you run into problems.  Upscaling is easy, creating new unique frames is the hard part.

Personally with v-sync on I don't notice any tearing in mame.  Demul on the other hand will tear like crazy, but not enough to warrant a $700 monitor and a $300 vid card to run it, besides, I don't even notice it any more.

Screen tearing, ghosting, and latency can make an LCD perform horribly in comparison to a CRT, but with a CRT you are pretty much stopping yourself at about 20" if you want more than SVGA resolution, and I LIKE having a 24 or 27" for my PC and for modern games.  So while high res CRT's were better than LCD's 15 years ago, it is impractical and a moot point to argue the value in the comparison in regards to high end gaming.  Thing is, even in games where the graphics card can't maintain 60 fps, 99% of people will never even notice or will be used to it and not even see it happening any more.  Sure, lightboost and g-sync will each fix some problems, but you also can't run both at the same time, so either you eliminate tearing with g-sync on graphics cards that are too slow to hit a steady 60 fps, or you get better latency and less ghosting with Lightboost.  And both technologies only work on TN screens, they can't achieve the results on any IPS screen, so you have crappy colors and bad off axis viewing.

And resolution has nothing to do with it.  I run my 10 year old LCD at 1920x1200.. higher than the latest 1080 monitors.  And since it is a good TN, the latency, even at that age, is about 5ms, far faster than the QHD IPS screens.  AND at that resolution, just like in QHD (1440 lines) it takes a monster graphics card to get 60 fps in anything 3d intensive.  If you haven't figured it out yet, the key to minimizing screen tearing and giving you a better game experience is going to come down to having a monster graphics card.

That being said, your last post looks like you are arguing FOR cheap LCD's..  :dizzy:  The whole idea started with a sub $100 monitor, and the reason I pointed out a 4:3 19" is because at that price point any newer 16:9 is going to give you a smaller game field (you can find 20-22" screens at that price used).  I personally use 27" IPS panels in my cabs, but if they made a decent 4:3 even at 22-24" I would use those instead.  No way I would use a $700 monitor that requires a $300 graphics card to run mame games in a cabinet.  On my gaming computer, if I were still into FPS games, I would (and almost did) buy one.  Chances are my next gaming monitor will be a decent IPS for around $300 instead, even though I can't do Lightboost or G-Sync with it.  But my priorities changed in recent years, I care more about color and picture quality than I do about playing first person shooters.

Bottom line, anything smaller than 27" LCD for arcade I would use a 19" 4:3, it makes more sense and gives a larger play field.  Above that any decent IPS 27"+ would be just fine for me.  Trust me, an extra 10-20ms of latency or a little slight ghosting will NOT affect my pacman game.

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2014, 12:47:58 pm »
Seriously, are you incapable of reading?

Says the person who clearly did not read the OP's requirements...  ::)

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2014, 01:13:14 pm »
I'm not sure if it's ignorance, cheapness, or both.

Talk about ignorance... you can tweak your individual game .ini files to eliminate tearing. I do it all the time, especially with side-scrollers. I also don't run HLSL because, quite frankly, I don't feel like I need to fake myself out and pretend that I'm using a CRT when I'm not. If I want to use a CRT, I'll use a CRT.

Yeah, I know, you wrote an super awesome HD front end based on the best game EVAR for your widescreen 70 inch G-FORCE Ultra-plasma LCD....blah blah blah. Meh. Some people just like playing games, dude.

I've got advancemame .106 running on a p3 1.2ghz with 512mb of ram, on-board sis video & Linux on a $20 19" 4:3 LCD I bought at the good will & i haven't had to tweak anything.

I have had to play with resolutions because i'm using a scanline generator & even though i'm tossing a low res game out to a high res monitor dig dug still looks really really good.

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2014, 01:20:25 pm »
Is driverman masquerading as someone else again? Seems like the same inane fanaticism again.

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2014, 02:09:58 pm »
Is driverman masquerading as someone else again? Seems like the same inane fanaticism again.

For the love of drugs, his English is too good.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2014, 04:14:41 pm »
raspberry pi.
Snazzy! I'll definitely keep that in mind for the future. But fwiw, my computer build, such as it is, is essentially done. 8)

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2014, 07:21:34 pm »
raspberry pi.
Snazzy! I'll definitely keep that in mind for the future. But fwiw, my computer build, such as it is, is essentially done. 8)

The Master would approve!
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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2014, 09:32:09 pm »
I'm still waiting on bits to arrive, but even if everything doesn't go quite as planned, I'll have gotten away far cheaper then I would have thought.

In the meantime, a question of wood: What use? Poking around, MDF seems to be the choice. Does it fare well in humid climates? I'm a little concerned about moisture taking its toll. Is there anything I can do to protect the wood?

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2014, 01:09:56 am »
For MDF in a humid environment, your choices are:

Seal with primer/paint or swell and rot.   >:D

(Cue the usual jokes about unprotected wood, dampness and houses of ill-repute)


Scott

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2014, 10:31:04 am »
It's really amazing how much ---saint's minion-poo--- you managed to pack into such a short post. You managed to be wrong about essentially everything you said. Pretty impressive.

1) V-sync doesn't cause stuttering unless your video card can't maintain 60 fps, and frankly if you are looking for perfection in a game, you will NEVER get it below 60 fps. 

Even if you get 100% speed in MAME, if the original game didn't run at 60hz, it will stutter on a 60hz LCD. If V-Sync is on, you must be running at the game's native refresh rate for smooth video. Mortal Kombat runs at ~54.7hz, so "perfection" there is running at 54.7hz. There is nothing magical about 60hz. Most arcade games DON'T run at 60hz. You realize that there are a lot of games that run ABOVE 60hz, right? It's not possible to run these games at the correct speed on a 60hz monitor with V-Sync on. I love how you mention Pac-Man as an example of a game where this doesn't matter, but Pac-Man actually runs at 60.60hz. It's impossible to get it to run at the right speed with V-Sync on a 60hz monitor.

Screen tearing will only happen if your framerate drops below 60 fps, with v-sync on.     

You don't understand how V-Sync and tearing work. Tearing primarily occurs when you're outputting frames faster than your monitor's refresh rate. By the way, V-Sync introduces at least 1 additional frame of lag universally. It's inescapable. G-Sync has less input lag. It's objectively better.

Personally with v-sync on I don't notice any tearing in mame.

Give how close together your eyes are, I'm not even convinced you can see at 60fps.

You are mixing up the frequency of frames from the old analogue signals with what a digital rendering will do.  Mame won't speed up the game to output 60 frames per second to achieve v-sync, the video card will just upscale the number of frames to get it above 60, just like it will do when watching a 24 fps blu ray or viewing a static picture on your screen.  It is when your video card can't process those frames to begin with that you run into problems.  Upscaling is easy, creating new unique frames is the hard part.

That's some of the most ignorant ---saint's minion-poo--- I've ever read on this forum. Digital rendering? What the ---fudgesicle--- are you talking about? You realize that there are digital CRTs, right? Jesus you're clueless. You realize that 24fps movies have judder/stuttering at 60hz, right? Watch any movie with a slow panning camera. It's not smooth.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

MAME doesn't "upscale" frames. Drawing the same frames again and throttling to make up for the fact that the game doesn't run as fast as your refresh rate is what creates the stuttering in the first place.

"Sure, lightboost and g-sync will each fix some problems, but you also can't run both at the same time"

Actually, GroovyMAME has black frame insertion, which is essentially a software implementation of what lightboost gives you, so you can have both at the same time.

And both technologies only work on TN screens, they can't achieve the results on any IPS screen, so you have crappy colors and bad off axis viewing.

Actually, both G-Sync and lightboost work on IPS panels. There is nothing about either technology that's specific to a certain type of LCD panel. Overlord Computer is working on an IPS G-Sync monitor right now. I'm curious, can you type ONE sentence that doesn't have multiple glaring loads of ---saint's minion-poo--- in it?

"And resolution has nothing to do with it."

I never said that resolution had anything to do with motion smoothness. I said that <= 1080p LCDs suck ass for arcade emulation. Nice strawman argument. Games in MAME look like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- without HLSL. HLSL requires 3840x2160 to be able to output an image with even scanlines and a decent shadowmask. Even 1440p is insufficient. Resolution makes a HUGE difference for quality arcade emulation.

Your whole post is a ton of misinformation, confusion about how technologies actually work, and the idea that it's foolish to spend a lot of money on a quality setup. Quality costs money, the lineage of arcades is about using the highest quality components available to create amazing game experiences, and you're completely full of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 10:40:47 am by bulbousbeard »

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2014, 12:00:21 pm »
Your whole post is a ton of misinformation, confusion about how technologies actually work, and the idea that it's foolish to spend a lot of money on a quality setup. Quality costs money, the lineage of arcades is about using the highest quality components available to create amazing game experiences

Wut? 

Why can't some people understand that their personal goals are not everybody's personal goals?

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2014, 12:46:50 pm »
I see your wall of text and I raise you with my WALL OF TEXT!  RAWR!

Even if you get 100% speed in MAME, if the original game didn't run at 60hz, it will stutter on a 60hz LCD. If V-Sync is on, you must be running at the game's native refresh rate for smooth video. Mortal Kombat runs at ~54.7hz, so "perfection" there is running at 54.7hz. There is nothing magical about 60hz. Most arcade games DON'T run at 60hz. You realize that there are a lot of games that run ABOVE 60hz, right? It's not possible to run these games at the correct speed on a 60hz monitor with V-Sync on. I love how you mention Pac-Man as an example of a game where this doesn't matter, but Pac-Man actually runs at 60.60hz. It's impossible to get it to run at the right speed with V-Sync on a 60hz monitor.
I don't run the original game and I don't output it with analog.  I use an emulator that throttles the game so it can run on a processor way faster than the original, and outputs the results in a way that allows my computer to display them at a frequency and resolution that my monitor is compatible with.  I run my mame at 1900x1080 @ 60 hz.  And it works just fine for me. Very few games stutter and none of them tear (in mame).  Demul 3D games stutter, but those are because the game is running below 100% and the 3d card isn't rendering fast enough to hit 60 fps.

Quote from: bulbousbeard
You don't understand how V-Sync and tearing work. Tearing primarily occurs when you're outputting frames faster than your monitor's refresh rate. By the way, V-Sync introduces at least 1 additional frame of lag universally. It's inescapable. G-Sync has less input lag. It's objectively better.
You are confusing throttling with tearing.  Tearing is when one frame is not fully drawn before the next monitor cycle because the graphics card has not fully rendered it, and you notice a visible line across your screen where two frames intersect. The frame is drawn by the graphics card, so if the source is slower than the monitor, that means you are UNDER the monitor frequency, not above it. 
V-sync syncs your video card output to your monitor refresh.  Anything above 60 frames per second is throttled, and while that means a dropped frame here and there, it is already rendering faster than the human eye can see, so you will never notice the dropped frame.  And while you could argue that v-sync is slower, the difference is still below the threshold of human vision, so it is irrelevant.  However, anything BELOW 60 fps will still potentially tear.
G-sync allows the monitor to change frequency and match the output of the card.  There are two reasons this is better:  1) so you don't get tearing below 60 fps, and 2) so you don't get throttling (frame drops) above 60 hz. 

I want to reiterate: If you are rendering above 60 fps, with v-sync the card will simply drop a frame, and no tear will occur.  The dropped frame is technically not noticeable to the human eye because technically your brain can't sample more than 30 frames in a second.  Some people claim they can see it, but then some people claim they can hear jitter on a laserdisc or dvd.  From my experience, 99% of these people don't know jitter from distortion (or frame loss from screen tearing).

Quote from: bulbousbeard
Give how close together your eyes are, I'm not even convinced you can see at 60fps.
Was that supposed to be an insult?

Quote from: bulbousbeard
That's some of the most ignorant ---saint's minion-poo--- I've ever read on this forum. Digital rendering? What the ---fudgesicle--- are you talking about? You realize that there are digital CRTs, right? Jesus you're clueless. You realize that 24fps movies have judder/stuttering at 60hz, right? Watch any movie with a slow panning camera. It's not smooth.
Your brain can process information from your eyes at approximately 30 frames per second.  Movies were traditionally shot on 35 mm film, which runs at a rate of 24 frames per second.  Any "stuttering" you see on a film, whether played on a projector at 24 fps, or upscaled to run at 60 fps on a digital non-interlaced 60 hz display, is the result of a low frame rate source and is going to look "choppy" particularly when the camera is panning.  Thing is, even if G-sync could lower your rate to 24 fps, you would still see this effect because you are now viewing something slow enough for your eyes to catch. 

But that is aside from what we are even talking about.  The point is, if you couldn't upscale a 24 fps source to run at 60 fps and sync it to a 60hz display, then nearly EVERY frame of a bluray would be torn on the screen.  But it isn't because it upscales the number of frames (just like 120 hz tvs do with the 60hz signals).  Mame might not output 60 frames per second, but all that means is a dropped frame (or duplicated frame) now and then.  I know this because there is no tearing with v-sync on.  And if there is a dropped frame in the video causing a stutter, I can't see it because humans simply can't process the difference between 60 frames per second and 59 frames per second.  Perhaps your superhuman eyes can catch those 16 ms frame anomalies, but mine can't.  The irony is that traditional arcades are displayed on a 60 hz interlaced display, which is actually 30 frames per second, so even if 1 frame in 60 is dropped, you are still seeing more information than you did on an analog display.
Quote from: bulbousbeard
"Sure, lightboost and g-sync will each fix some problems, but you also can't run both at the same time"
Actually, GroovyMAME has black frame insertion, which is essentially a software implementation of what lightboost gives you, so you can have both at the same time.
No, it isn't really, lightboost strobes the backlight between each frame, and since you have to sync the strobe with the frequency of the monitor, you can't do it with G-sync.  Every article about G-sync has specified this, and trust me, if it was as easy as just inserting a black frame between frames, NVidia would have done it already.  PLUS, it is widely known that lightboost is completely ineffective below 120 hz (60 fps with strobes in between each frame). 

What GroovyMame is probably doing is running mame at 30 fps and inserting a black screen after each to get 60 fps, hence eliminating frame dropping if the emulator can't kick out a true 60 fps and giving you a more accurate "arcade" experience.  This is basically another method of v-sync (throttling to match the refresh rate of the monitor). 
Quote from: bulbousbeard
And both technologies only work on TN screens, they can't achieve the results on any IPS screen, so you have crappy colors and bad off axis viewing.

Actually, both G-Sync and lightboost work on IPS panels. There is nothing about either technology that's specific to a certain type of LCD panel. Overlord Computer is working on an IPS G-Sync monitor right now. I'm curious, can you type ONE sentence that doesn't have multiple glaring loads of ---saint's minion-poo--- in it?
WRONG again, completely and utterly.  Read ANY article about G-sync.  Both lightboost and G-sync are not available in any kind of panel other than TN.  This is the biggest argument against either technology.

First, IPS cannot even come close to the low latencies that TN panels can achieve.  Second, even the IPS panels that supposedly are overclocked to 120 hz have such high latency that it negates any benefit you get from it.  You can't reliably or effectively overclock IPS panels to give any kind of real benefit to either screen tearing issues or ghosting issues.  This is why the only overclocked IPS panels come from Korea. 
Quote from: bulbousbeard
"And resolution has nothing to do with it."
I never said that resolution had anything to do with motion smoothness. I said that <= 1080p LCDs suck ass for arcade emulation. Nice strawman argument. Games in MAME look like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- without HLSL. HLSL requires 3840x2160 to be able to output an image with even scanlines and a decent shadowmask. Even 1440p is insufficient. Resolution makes a HUGE difference for quality arcade emulation.
WTF are you talking about?  I run HLSL on 1080 just fine.  Granted, I am not using a magnifying glass and looking at the screen from 2 inches away and shouting "AHA, I see an anomaly, this screen sucks!" but I guess not everyone is as much of a perfectionist as you are.

BTW, what you said was "You can do things with a high resolution LCD that you can't do with an arcade monitor. Playing Ultra Street Fighter IV at 1440p is one of them."  Now you are saying even that is worthless because it isn't UHD?  My 1200 line monitor works just fine when emulating a 240 line game, thank you very much, and it sure as hell doesn't require me to run over 2000 lines of resolution to accurately emulate 240 lines.. Again, WTF are you even talking about?
Quote from: bulbousbeard
Your whole post is a ton of misinformation, confusion about how technologies actually work, and the idea that it's foolish to spend a lot of money on a quality setup. Quality costs money, the lineage of arcades is about using the highest quality components available to create amazing game experiences, and you're completely full of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.
I think it is you who is confused.  And as far as quality goes, I spent years selling and installing the best equipment money can buy, and as a result I have an appreciation for quality but also understand that sometimes what people use is perfectly acceptable to them, and that there is nothing wrong with it.  Like I said, if you need to spend $1000+ on a display to play a 40 year old arcade game to your liking, then more power to you.  But it doesn't change the fact that what I and pretty much every person on this forum use works perfectly, FOR US. 

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2014, 01:55:43 pm »
You're a good man, Dave. I've decided not to talk to this neckbeard anymore. Let him run his Steam games in Ultra High Def on his G-Force 1. Me, I'll play Mr. Do and enjoy it.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2014, 06:38:26 pm »
You realize that there are a lot of games that run ABOVE 60hz, right? It's not possible to run these games at the correct speed on a 60hz monitor with V-Sync on.

Got a few examples of games that run natively above 60hz?  I'm quite interested.  I guess you mean games that run slightly over 60hz?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 06:46:05 pm by Ond »

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2014, 06:50:07 pm »
Wow...  Is NeckBeard secretly X2 in disguise?

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2014, 07:07:57 pm »
Wow...  Is NeckBeard secretly X2 in disguise?
Given his arguments are nearly identical to the ones X2 made in another thread a couple weeks ago, I assumed the same at first.  But then X2 freaked out when I used the term "BS" and this guy has no problem swearing, so I am guessing no..  :laugh2:

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2014, 07:14:05 pm »
So now I have to rush out and get me a 4K G-Sync monitor to play my mame games?  Damn.  Well I am a bit of perfectionist and always on the lookout for little things that bug me about the quality of my setup.  I can't see any line tearing on my LCD once everything is all configured as optimally as I can get it.  HLSL looks pretty damn good at 1600x1200, if I wanted it any more authentic looking I'd stop trying to emulate and get a CRT instead.





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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2014, 08:47:12 pm »
Hot dang, thanks for that link, PL1. They'll ship me a monitor for less then ten bucks! :applaud: I'll take a b-grade refurb for that price fo sho.

This project just got a lot cheaper. I was prepared for the screen to be the most expensive component!

Just remember to put in the Coupon code "Dealnews" -- right now it gets you half off the already 30% off on monitors and systems so worth the effort to type in !!!!

They have an IPS panel 20" Dell 2001FP that's a 4:3 20" monitor for $58 - $29 with the code + $9 shipping makes it about $40 for a good IPS panel flatscreen with 178 degree viewing angles and great picture quality.

Thanks for the heads up with this deal.  Got 2 monitors for under $90 shipped.

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2014, 08:51:35 pm »
dkersten, send me a PM when you have some time. Let's get on Vent or Mumble and talk. You are completely misinformed and ignorant about how emulation works. You need an education from the ground up, and I'm tired of writing novels trying to correct you when you're just going to ignore what I type and vomit up some more textual garbage.

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2014, 09:01:18 pm »
Just a little taste of how objectively wrong this kid is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refresh_rate

"screen tearing (caused by altering the graphics faster than the electron beam can render the picture)"

Literally everything you typed is objectively wrong. You have no idea what you're talking about. Get on Vent or Mumble, where you can't weasel out of it, and I will educate you.

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2014, 09:27:06 pm »
"screen tearing (caused by altering the graphics faster than the electron beam can render the picture)"

Which is pretty much exactly what he said.  You get tearing when you modify the frame buffer faster than than it is drawn out.  So you end up with part of one frame and part of another displayed on screen.  Simple concept, we get it.

bulbousbeard

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #50 on: August 20, 2014, 09:42:20 pm »
"screen tearing (caused by altering the graphics faster than the electron beam can render the picture)"

Which is pretty much exactly what he said.  You get tearing when you modify the frame buffer faster than than it is drawn out.  So you end up with part of one frame and part of another displayed on screen.  Simple concept, we get it.

Actually, it's the opposite of what he said. He said that you get tearing when you're rendering slower than the monitor's refresh rate.

Snark removed by an irritated saint
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 07:26:56 am by saint »

bulbousbeard

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #51 on: August 20, 2014, 09:51:45 pm »
Nvidia confirmed in several interviews and in every press communication that G-Sync works with any panel technology. It's not tied to any specific panel technology. It just needs display port.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7582/nvidia-gsync-review

"Despite NVIDIA’s first choice being a TN display, G-Sync will work just fine with an IPS panel and I’m expecting to see new G-Sync displays announced in the not too distant future."

You're objectively wrong. Get on Vent or Mumble. I will educate you from the ground up.

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2014, 12:14:35 am »
I feel like playing a game of Robotron with Xiaou2. Where you at, bro?
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2014, 07:31:34 am »
I appreciate people being passionate about a subject and I appreciate a good debate between parties with opposing views.

If you can't do it with the decorum I've requested in the rules (if you haven't read the rules, read the damn things - http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade_message_rules.html), you need to take a step back. I don't care whose dick is bigger. If you're here to pick fights, get the frack off my forum.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/wheatons-law

Make your points without belittling the other party. If you can't do that, the problem lies with the person you see in the mirror.

I know the above was unnecessary because everyone here can have civilized discourse. Never mind me - thanks everyone!

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2014, 10:37:51 am »
I didn't catch what other insults you hurled at me, but thank you Saint for cleaning it up.  :)

Theoretically you could do G-sync with IPS, but everyone who knows anything about the panels knows that IPS panels are way too slow, and while you could do G-sync with them, you could never even get close to sub-5ms latencies with them, at least not with any EXISTING technology, which is why there is no such thing as an IPS G-sync monitor.  It is a unicorn as of right now, and while that will likely change at some point in the future, that future is at LEAST 2 years away.  Saying that you can do G-sync on an IPS panel is like saying you can have an all electric car that can go for 400 miles between charges and get charged in a matter of a few minutes.  Sure, in CONCEPT, you can, but the technology is just not possible right now.  Period plain and simple.  What point is there to have G-sync on an ips panel when you can't reliably clock it over 60hz or get better than 15-30ms latency?  NONE WHATSOEVER.  Which is why nobody is manufacturing one.

And if you know anything about v-sync, you would know that if your monitor is at 60hz, your vid card will throttle your framerate to 60 fps.  Show me a screenshot of ANY game running at 61 or more frames per second with v-sync on.  You can't because like an IPS panel with sub 5ms latency, it might as well be Santa Clause.. Doesn't exist.  Screen tearing will happen any time the monitor refresh is out of sync with the frames being rendered, but with v-sync anything above 60 fps (on a 60hz display) is throttled and frames will either be dropped or just not rendered at all, so it will NEVER HAPPEN with v-sync on. 

I see you "called me out" last night in a PM, sorry, I was busy with my life and didn't catch it.  I was busy playing League of Legends on my 10 year old LCD, of which the gameplay was perfect, there was zero screen tearing, my FPS did occasionally go from 60 to 59.9 in a flicker, and I successfully played 8 games (of which I won 6) at 1200 lines of resolution, above and beyond the "modern" resolution of 1080.  This, in my book, is enough to disprove every single thing you have vomited on this forum.  Completely playable, no tearing, and never once went above the screen refresh rate despite the computer being able to render 3x that frame rate.  Funny how reality can trump the interweb sometimes..

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #55 on: August 21, 2014, 10:51:24 am »
I appreciate people being passionate about a subject and I appreciate a good debate between parties with opposing views.

If you can't do it with the decorum I've requested in the rules (if you haven't read the rules, read the damn things - http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade_message_rules.html), you need to take a step back. I don't care whose dick is bigger. If you're here to pick fights, get the frack off my forum.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/wheatons-law

Make your points without belittling the other party. If you can't do that, the problem lies with the person you see in the mirror.

I know the above was unnecessary because everyone here can have civilized discourse. Never mind me - thanks everyone!

--- saint

***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #56 on: August 21, 2014, 07:03:07 pm »
So while I wait for the last needed bit to arrive (sata cable for hard drive I forgot derp), I'll ask: What's generally considered the minimum width for a control panel for two players? I'm still yet undecided as to what it's going to be playing, but while I'm waffling I might as well see what that option entails.

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #57 on: August 21, 2014, 10:38:18 pm »
There's no real right answer. Do you and your friends weigh less than 200lbs each or do each of you have your own zip code?

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #58 on: August 21, 2014, 10:43:42 pm »
A fair question. :lol

I guess it doesn't really matter. Since my hardware is all pretty small, I can always compensate a wider control panel with a machine that's not quite as deep. Main reason I really ask is because my doorway is only 25 inches wide (28 if I take the door off), so I have to account for that in anything I might build. ;)

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2014, 10:45:49 pm »
There's no real right answer. Do you and your friends weigh less than 200lbs each or do each of you have your own zip code?

 :laugh2: -- another consideration - Are you going to have a trackball or spinner also or just the joysticks and buttons (need quite a bit more width if going with a trackball)

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #60 on: August 22, 2014, 08:23:21 am »
Nah, no trackball or spinner most likely.

As an aside, the idea of cluttering a panel up with everything makes me kind of sad. I can appreciate the all-in-one nature of such a beast, but I see some of those super expensive jobs that are out there with four player inputs + trackball + joystick + kitchen sink and at that point I can't help but feel the elegance is gone.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 08:26:45 am by TorgoHiggins »

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2014, 10:42:24 am »
Form vs Function is one of the all time biggest conflicts in humanity.. You gotta just figure out what you want it to do and then make it as pretty as you can in doing it..

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #62 on: August 22, 2014, 10:48:54 am »
Form vs Function is one of the all time biggest conflicts in humanity.. You gotta just figure out what you want it to do and then make it as pretty as you can in doing it..

Never noticed much conflict there unless you count Ralph Nader :dunno

Oh... and Milan, but most people can't find it on a map so it's moot.  :laugh2:

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #63 on: August 22, 2014, 11:24:14 am »
Nah, no trackball or spinner most likely.

As an aside, the idea of cluttering a panel up with everything makes me kind of sad. I can appreciate the all-in-one nature of such a beast, but I see some of those super expensive jobs that are out there with four player inputs + trackball + joystick + kitchen sink and at that point I can't help but feel the elegance is gone.

I like you, Torgo. Welcome to the club. See Vigo for your BYOAC Members Only jacket.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #64 on: August 23, 2014, 08:44:53 am »
So my monitor came in! (That's good!)

But it came in a box three times its size with literally, and I mean literally no packing material. (That's bad.)

But it still works! (That's good!)

But there's a dark spot in the middle of the screen (That's bad.)

It's not really that bad though. (That's good!)

But... I didn't get the monitor I ordered. I got a 21" 16:10 monitor.

That's bad.

 :-\

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #65 on: August 23, 2014, 01:21:14 pm »
That's not good -- How's the local pricing on 16:10 21" monitors ?? would you be able to quickly sell it to someone if advertised in the local craigslist and make a profit ? (only ask because it might be easier than shipping it back) and since you are in HI, it might sell quick for a profit seeing how hard it is to get things shipped there at a decent price. Then could try again !  :dunno

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #66 on: August 23, 2014, 05:25:53 pm »
Honestly I got the thing hooked up to my main pc now and I just might keep it. The price was so good and it's actually a tidy upgrade from my current main monitor. Besides, after putting it through its paces, the dark spot isn't even noticeable against a splash of color and movement (say, while playing a game.) :)

So, I dunno. I can definitely roll this into a positive either way. Just kind a bummer.

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2014, 06:16:14 pm »
I may have missed it but is this new monitor an LCD or a CRT?  If it's a CRT the dark spot might just be a degaussing issue and an easy fix.  If it's LCD then it might be the backlight going south which isn't good.

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #68 on: August 23, 2014, 06:27:00 pm »
LCD. It looks more like a slightly discolored smudge on the monitor then anything. So I dunno.

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #69 on: August 24, 2014, 10:31:30 am »
LCD. It looks more like a slightly discolored smudge on the monitor then anything. So I dunno.
Someone probably stuck their finger in that spot just a little too hard.  Mine has a similar issue, but I bought from State Surplus for $15.00.  Not noticeable during play.
Never met a game I won't keep.

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Re: Building from the ground up - Hardware Advice Request
« Reply #70 on: August 24, 2014, 01:11:08 pm »
LCD. It looks more like a slightly discolored smudge on the monitor then anything. So I dunno.

We call those "bruises" at work when describing what we have in our pile of spares.