The One Joystick to Rule Them All?

[processedmeat]

Hi all, after trying to play 4 way joystick games with an 8 way joystick because I didn't know any better, I'm on the market for an easily switchable (4 to 8 way) joystick.  Then I figured that it would be great if there was one that was a rotary joystick as well so I can properly play.  Does one exist? 

After building one cabinet, I've quickly realized that having proper controls makes a big difference in your enjoyment of these old games.   However, I'm limited to one cabinet so I'm trying to get something that can accommodate as many of these games as possible.

[EMDB]

Most switchable sticks can only be switched from the bottom. A MagStik Plus (http://www.ultimarc.com/controls.html) can be switched between 4- and 8-way from the top. A Servostick (http://www.ultimarc.com/servostik.html) can be switched automatically between 4- and 8-way driven by software. An U360 (http://www.ultimarc.com/ultrastik_info.html) can be mapped via USB to be any kind of stick (2-way, 4-way, 8-way, 4 way rotated 45 degrees for QBert). This can be automated based on the game you select in your frontend: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,134128.0.html

[Drnick]

Unfortunately there is no 1 stick to rule them all.  I would recommend you look into either servo sticks (Which have an automated restrictor to swap between 4-8 way) Mag stick Plus sticks which are 4-8 way swappable from the top.  Then there are some more expensive options ultrastick 360 for example.

As for Rotary joystick, If you look around the site someone did a modification to add rotation and I think top firing to their existing stick.

@EMDB Looks like you got in there just before me,

[Felsir]

I can vouch for the servostik: I have two of them in my cabinet and I'm very happy with the automated switch mechanism. I would either go for an automated option or a programmable stick like the U360.

Manaul (top) switchable sticks are nice on paper but in my own experience I didn't bother switching them because I had no clue if the restrictor was in 4 or 8 way mode without having to twist the stick again. Also people playing on my cabinet had no clue about the switching mechanism, and ended up calling a 8 way game 'broken' because they didn't know the stick was still in 4 way mode. So they ended up nearly permanent in 8 way mode.
What are other people's experience with these type of manual switchable sticks?

[EMDB]

I can vouch for the servostik: I have two of them in my cabinet and I'm very happy with the automated switch mechanism. I would either go for an automated option or a programmable stick like the U360.

Manaul (top) switchable sticks are nice on paper but in my own experience I didn't bother switching them because I had no clue if the restrictor was in 4 or 8 way mode without having to twist the stick again. Also people playing on my cabinet had no clue about the switching mechanism, and ended up calling a 8 way game 'broken' because they didn't know the stick was still in 4 way mode. So they ended up nearly permanent in 8 way mode.
What are other people's experience with these type of manual switchable sticks?

I started with a MagStick Plus and indeedd although it works prefect you don't know what mode the stick is in so you don't know when to switch and you can't (and won't) explain to guest about the switching. I switched to an U360 and am perfectly happy with it. Especially because it can also handle the 45degrees rotated stick of QBert.

[Xiaou2]

But, a u360 does not have physical restriction..  and that is critical to playing 4 way games accurately and is a lot more enjoyable.

 Its longer throw does not help either.
 

 There is no perfect one-stick solution.

[EMDB]

But, a u360 does not have physical restriction..  and that is critical to playing 4 way games accurately and is a lot more enjoyable.

 Its longer throw does not help either.
 

 There is no perfect one-stick solution.

You can add restrictors to an U360. I tried but did not like them. For me the U360 is perfect for playing 4 way games as far as I can tell...

[jimmer]

After building one cabinet, I've quickly realized that having proper controls makes a big difference in your enjoyment of these old games.   However, I'm limited to one cabinet so I'm trying to get something that can accommodate as many of these games as possible.

You are nearly there

One cabinet does not have to mean one set of controls.

[lamprey]

 The only way I know of (and I've thought about trying it), is to start with a Rotary stick and add a switchable restrictor plate.

I doubt they are compatible, but my thought was to use a portion of the Ultimarc Servo Switch for "auto" switching in conjunction with the Happ Rotary.

[Xiaou2]

But, a u360 does not have physical restriction..  and that is critical to playing 4 way games accurately and is a lot more enjoyable.

 Its longer throw does not help either.
 

 There is no perfect one-stick solution.

You can add restrictors to an U360. I tried but did not like them. For me the U360 is perfect for playing 4 way games as far as I can tell...

 The problem is that the restriction probably isn't the same as an original.   Because then you would lose the analog capability.

 When you allow too much travel, your reaction times and the feel of the stick wont be right.
 
 Also, while the stick unrestricted is analog.. its range of motion is limited compared to a full analog stick..  this also causes you to lose resolution control on these games.  You can jack up the movement settings.. but you still never get the precision control.

 The problem with many people is that they don't remember.. and or have not played with a good working arcade 4way.. and so they do not know what  'working perfect'  really means, in this context.

 For example, when you first get into a car.. you may not know the difference between snow tires, regular tires, racing tires, and show-tires (large rim) .. How each will effect the cars performance, control and feel.   To you, you just get in and drive, and say the car works perfectly for you.   Any issues, you may chalk up to challenging conditions and your own skills.. rather than the actual tires.

 A true arcade restricted 4-way, is a fairly tight diamond shape.  This is like cutting through someone's yard, instead of walking around the sidewalk perimeter.   Even better, because you are guided by the diagonal diamond shaped edge..  for a very smooth and fast action.  Your stick does not get stuck in the diagonal corners before it hits the correct position.  So each exchange, you gain a lot of distance and thus reaction times are much faster.   There also is no software to possibly slow things down.  Its all hardware, and all instantly registered.

 The feel and reaction times are further improved with leaf switches, instead of microswitches... as well as a rubber grommet, instead of a spring & spacer  pivot only.

[mgb]

I gotta say, I'm in agreement with X2 here. Good tight physical restriction is best.
I also agree that a rubber centering grommet is far superior to a spring.

[EMDB]

I use my U360 digitally so the throw is very small. If you define throw as 'the amount of movement needed to trigger a switch'. I think it is less than any microswitch based stick...



I admit is is not the genuine arcade feeling but it controls most of the games perfectly.

And there is no other stick that can control QBert as it was intended (other than a 4 way stick which is physically rotated 45 degrees): move to the Up-Right diagonal triggers an Up etc.

[BadMouth]

I use my U360 digitally so the throw is very small. If you define throw as 'the amount of movement needed to trigger a switch'.

Throw is how far the stick moves before it hits the restrictor.
Engage distance is how far it moves until it triggers a direction.

Us everyday players ride the restrictor.
The modern pros move the stick just enough to trigger a direction, so the restrictor is irrelevant.

If someone has enough discipline to stay out of the corners and is precise with their movements, an 8-way stick works perfectly well for 4-way games.  For those of us who flail about, a physical restrictor is best.

[Paul Olson]

If you didn't play the arcade games as a kid, or didn't really care about the feel of the joystick, you should be happy with a U360 or other multi use stick. There were a lot of differences to the real joysticks though. A WICO 4-way leaf is a great all-around 4-way joystick, but it is not the best for some games. Donkey Kong feels weird to me using it. I can still play fine, but the Nintendo joystick feels better, and it is important enough for me to have the right stick for that game. Same with Pacman, the original pac stick just feels tighter. The diamond restrictors are similar in size, so it is most likely the length of the joystick shaft that is the biggest difference. That being said, if you want an all in one solution, you just can't be this picky (and there are really only a handful of us who are this picky). I am only picky on games I really liked. I was going to get a pair of Nintendo 8-way joysticks, but I don't care about the games enough that used them.

there is no easy way to have a perfect joystick for every game. Don't spend too much time listening to people who say that you need it, or should even want it. My cab is capable of using any controller ever made (edit: that can fit on a 40" x 14" panel. I just thought of at least a dozen controllers that I can't use since I typed this sentence. lol ). It turns out that there are hundreds of different controllers out there. I chose to stick with 70 of my favorites, but that isn't even close to how many I would really want. It is just how many I chose to pay for and store. There are a lot of games that will have to be played with the "wrong" controller. If it bugs me on a game, I guess I will have to find some more storage space.

I originally had 2 8-way sticks, 6 buttons each, a trackball, and a spinner. That is perfectly fine for most people. Changing the 8-ways to multi sticks would probably be good enough for all but maybe 20 people (I can only think of around 10 here that would go further than that, but I am sure I am forgetting some).

I would suggest trying the U360s or something similar. That will let you play all of the joystick games, and if that isn't good enough for you, then you can decide to go crazy and get original controllers. It probably will be good enough though, so I wouldn't take the time and expense to do more unless you have tried them and found them wanting. I should also add that they were not available when I decided to go modular. They might have been good enough for me as well, but I guess I will never know. I was already way too far into parts hoarding when those came out to turn back. lol

I actually agree with almost everything x2 says regarding controllers (wow that is hard to say). I do understand though, that almost no one cares. I have also figured out that I can buy every game I really want to play for less than I can make one cabinet play them all perfectly. There have been many games that I have bought and sold for less than it cost me to get the controllers mounted on panels for my cabinet.

[mgb]

If you're looking for a decent all around solution but want some physical restriction as well as a price tag below $50, I'd say go for something like the Omni2 or my preference, the Sanwa JlW with the same mods as the Omni2.

As already said, the Servostik may really prove to be worthwhile.
This stick is also based on the JLW which in my opinion is a great all around stick.
Although like anything, is not perfect. I'm knocking ideas around in my head for somehow improving its 4 way to be less throw.

[Xiaou2]

 Whats been said by Badmouth is also very true..  that you can, if your good.. keep the stick from hitting the very edges of its maximum throw.  The problem is..  with most people, in the heat of an intense high pressure situation... tend to react fast and with less precision.

 Also, to maintain very accurate control without hitting the max throw... can take more effort... so it can be fatiguing.

 
  The exception, is something like an original:  long plunger throw, short distance activation, leafswitch button.
In this case, fatigue is reduced dramatically.  This is because the leverage is different than a joystick.. and the motion vector is always the same direction.   In this manor, you can lightly feather-bounce the contacts on and off with almost zero effort... and never have to smash the plunger into the full end position.

 Another thing not often talked about.. is comfort and feel.

 With the older joysticks, they used a rubber grommet.. which helps reduce shock force from traveling up the shaft into your hand and bones.  It also does not have any favored directions, as often is the case of something like an analog stick...  which is why they often have to add large dead-zones.  Dead zones are also to keep the player from accidentally moving if the stick is only a few degrees off..  but beyond that, there are vector forces in the initial first cm of travel, to overcome, with most spring sticks.

 Some of the controllers also used rubber bumpers.. such as in the Spy Hunter wheel.   In this game, you have to Slam other baddies off the road often.. and if you tried this with a wheel without such force absorbing bumpers... the shock forces will be a bit harsh (fatiguing) to your own body..  but also, is it may end up wearing down and or breaking the wheel itself.

 Material quality, durability, material feel, shaft thickness, and stick height..  also play various roles.


 The simplest example to me is Robotron.   Ive tried to play it with almost everything.. and it never feels nor controls as good as a true Wico 8way leaf stick.    On the other hand, these controllers dont work well for a lot of precision stop and go stuff... like in a fighting game.  For those, I prefer a Happs Competition microswitch stick.


 As for the Number of people whom prefer to use the original controllers...  I dont know if Id agree with that.   The thing is..  there was several generations of people who played in the arcades from the 80s to 90s...  beyond, before and after... all at different ages, as well as all over the world.   I think if these people have passion for their favorite games.. they probably have done the research on the controllers.. and dont accept less than the real deal.   And or if they have... they may eventually make the discovery, and change it up.  Just as I myself have found the joys and benefits of leaf switches, and leaf buttons..  upon other things.

 I also tend to feel that a lot of the projects that are shared, come from a lot of the younger gen.  As such, you see a lot of curved button layouts, with flat top / convex buttons.   

 Nothing wrong with many newbies getting into it... but..  a lot of them do not know the reasons behind the elder designs & physics principles, nor the differences in feel and control.   So things like flat topped control panels are made, rather than adding a slight down sloping angle to them...  and it causes comfort issues with people of shorter height, such as their arms grinding on the CP edge + tight wrists bend angles.  It also makes it easier for spilled liquids to soak into a CPs controls, rather than rolling off onto the floor.

 The real question is...  how much do you value your control?   Can you be happy racing a basic model 4 door car...  or do you instead, want the added feel and control provided by a sports car loaded to the gills with performance enhancing attributes? 

 If your life depended on it... we know what you would choose...   However, this is just for games.  If you dont mind losing often due to the controller & its attributes (you may never realize it adds up to that, or maybe are not good enough for it to even make a positive change..)  , and or do not take your gaming performance all that serious... then almost anything is ok for you. 


 But, just the same, there isnt a perfect  one-to-rule-them-all  "Vehicle".  A Lamborghini wont work well in harsh environments,  and a jeep wont do well on a racetrack.   A Racecar with its stiff suspension, wont feel good on the back for long distances.  A comfort car may feel great.. but cant hug tight corners at high speeds.   Even if you try to balance every positive aspect of them all.. you will find you have to compromise in some area.   Larger tires may give better snow traction, but they do not do well for racing.  This is mere physics in action, and it cant be changed.


Interesting note:

  One famous guitar player learned to play incredibly well, on a beat up & broken guitar, that was missing a string.. (I think it may have also had a bent neck?)  but then again, he doesnt still use that same guitar, now.

 
 Cheers, and enjoy the hobby.   
 Only you can know whats best for you.

 Just dont be close minded to try something different,  both  newer  and  older...   
 ... Or you may find that you are missing out on something great.

[Slippyblade]

Fully agree with x2's wall of text.  He's pretty much spot on in every respect there.

[danny_galaga]

Just a heads up on the servo stick as I was looking at getting some. If you are a software retard like me, there is the option to have switches instead. The only reason I haven't got any is that unfortunately the joysticks on my cab are squeezed too tightly against the side. Next cab though for sure (",)

[Endaar]

And there is no other stick that can control QBert as it was intended (other than a 4 way stick which is physically rotated 45 degrees): move to the Up-Right diagonal triggers an Up etc.

I've seen this posted a few times but I don't see how that's the case. I have QBert programmed so that "UP" in game requires hitting BOTH UP and RIGHT on my 8-way joystick. Etc. Unless I'm missing something (and admittedly most of my Q-Bert gameplay was on Coleco) this works perfectly fine.

Endaar

[EMDB]

I've seen this posted a few times but I don't see how that's the case. I have QBert programmed so that "UP" in game requires hitting BOTH UP and RIGHT on my 8-way joystick. Etc. Unless I'm missing something (and admittedly most of my Q-Bert gameplay was on Coleco) this works perfectly fine.

Endaar

Can you explain how you "programmed" QBert?

[jimmer]

And there is no other stick that can control QBert as it was intended (other than a 4 way stick which is physically rotated 45 degrees): move to the Up-Right diagonal triggers an Up etc.

I've seen this posted a few times but I don't see how that's the case. I have QBert programmed so that "UP" in game requires hitting BOTH UP and RIGHT on my 8-way joystick. Etc. Unless I'm missing something (and admittedly most of my Q-Bert gameplay was on Coleco) this works perfectly fine.

I'm sure I also read a few times that you need a 4way stick rotated for Q*Bert, maybe the conversations were about non-MAME systems.

But your post has just made me go get Q*Bert and try it on MAME. And yeah, MAME does key combinations so you can choose the diagonals as your 4 directions, so an 8way stick with a square restrictor is fine.

That vinyl panel overlay I printed up for Q*Bert thinking it needed special controls is a bit redundant now. Ah well it still looks cool.

[EMDB]

And there is no other stick that can control QBert as it was intended (other than a 4 way stick which is physically rotated 45 degrees): move to the Up-Right diagonal triggers an Up etc.

I've seen this posted a few times but I don't see how that's the case. I have QBert programmed so that "UP" in game requires hitting BOTH UP and RIGHT on my 8-way joystick. Etc. Unless I'm missing something (and admittedly most of my Q-Bert gameplay was on Coleco) this works perfectly fine.

I'm sure I also read a few times that you need a 4way stick rotated for Q*Bert, maybe the conversations were about non-MAME systems.

But your post has just made me go get Q*Bert and try it on MAME. And yeah, MAME does key combinations so you can choose the diagonals as your 4 directions, so an 8way stick with a square restrictor is fine.

That vinyl panel overlay I printed up for Q*Bert thinking it needed special controls is a bit redundant now. Ah well it still looks cool.

Don't the diagonals have a very limit area where they hit both switches on an actual stick?

[PL1]

For the arcade version, the joystick was rotated 45 degrees so up+right relative to the screen = up relative to the joystick base.

AFAIK Q*bert, Q*bert's Qubes, and Congo Bongo were the only three games that used this diagonal stick-mount.

If you want to use the diagonals on a regular 8-way joystick, be sure to clear the inputs in MAME using "Enter" then "Esc", otherwise MAME will recognize both "Up" and "Up+Right" as commands to jump up/right.

If you're trying to go up+left, but hit the Up before the Left, it will send you the wrong way.

Don't the diagonals have a very limit area where they hit both switches on an actual stick?

Most sticks have a much narrower angle for diagonals than primary directions.

If primary and diagonal directions were divided evenly, each would get 45 degrees. (360/8)

According to the RetroBlast joystick roundup, Happ Competition diagonals are only 10 degrees and Happ Supers are only 15 degrees.


Scott

[chopperthedog]

As PL1 stated with setting up the 8 way for qbert works perfectly with a set of servo stiks in my cocktail table. The only thing I needed to do was edit the controls.ini for qbert and congo bongo to read 8way so the servo stik would go to the 8way plate setting for the diagonals.


good day

[EMDB]

For the arcade version, the joystick was rotated 45 degrees so up+right relative to the screen = up relative to the joystick base.

AFAIK Q*bert, Q*bert's Qubes, and Congo Bongo were the only three games that used this diagonal stick-mount.

If you want to use the diagonals on a regular 8-way joystick, be sure to clear the inputs in MAME using "Enter" then "Esc", otherwise MAME will recognize both "Up" and "Up+Right" as commands to jump up/right.

If you're trying to go up+left, but hit the Up before the Left, it will send you the wrong way.

Don't the diagonals have a very limit area where they hit both switches on an actual stick?

Most sticks have a much narrower angle for diagonals than primary directions.

If primary and diagonal directions were divided evenly, each would get 45 degrees. (360/8)

According to the RetroBlast joystick roundup, Happ Competition diagonals are only 10 degrees and Happ Supers are only 15 degrees.


Scott

So if you only have 10 degrees for the diagonals to be triggered you have to hit your corners VERY precise to move QBert around. I guess my setup has about 60 to 70 degrees of area to be detected as UP...

[Endaar]

I just tried it and I agree, QBert is more playable on a U360 than a Happ Comp, entirely because of the size of the diagonals. But the point stands that you CAN use a standard 8-way stick for QBert.

The U360 is a great stick precisely because it's quite flexible, BUT the price you pay for that (besides $$) is it's a compromise for nearly every game. I mostly play platformers and shumps, and for those I went with Happ Comps; this way for the vast majority of what I play I'm not compromising feel for flexibility. I've been through pretty much every accessory for the U360 and have never been happy with it; I realize I'm in the minority but in the interest of being "one stick to rule them all" it fails to do anything well IMO.

The OP has to decide how many of the edge cases (i.e. stuff that doesn't work well with a standard stick) are important enough to warrant spending considerably more money for U360s or any of the other specialty/switchable/etc controllers, and possibly trading off some feel for the majority of games.

Endaar

[Xiaou2]

It doesnt matter what controller you use to play Q-Bert...   In the end, your probably going to want to use a Sledgehammer instead   

  

[Slippyblade]

It doesnt matter what controller you use to play Q-Bert...   In the end, your probably going to want to use a Sledgehammer instead   

  

Quoted for great truth!

[pbj]

I always thought U360s were manipulating physical restrictions via software.  Now I learn it's just customizing how it reads your inputs? 

No wonder people are constantly selling these things "barely used."  Might as well play with the thumbstick on my Xbox controller.

[mgb]

I always thought U360s were manipulating physical restrictions via software.  Now I learn it's just customizing how it reads your inputs? 

No wonder people are constantly selling these things "barely used."  Might as well play with the thumbstick on my Xbox controller.

Yeah I don't see the big deal about them. When they first came out, they were all the rage here but it seems to have dulled out a bit.

[2600]

I always thought U360s were manipulating physical restrictions via software.  Now I learn it's just customizing how it reads your inputs? 

No wonder people are constantly selling these things "barely used."  Might as well play with the thumbstick on my Xbox controller.

Yeah I don't see the big deal about them. When they first came out, they were all the rage here but it seems to have dulled out a bit.

Not many sticks, if any, can do what the U360 can do.  The only downsides for the U360 is the physical restrictor if you want a physical restrictor and it doesn't do rotary games(or it's harder to mod to do rotary games).  If you don't want/need a physical resctrictor the U360 is a great stick with additional benefits over most other sticks.

[Minwah]

Yeah I don't see the big deal about them. When they first came out, they were all the rage here but it seems to have dulled out a bit.

Everyone waited for years for an arcade quality analog joystick which is one reason it was very popular. Add into that the software programming and it is a pretty good stick for a log of the 'digital' games as well. It is a great all round stick if there are analog stick games that you want to be able to play.

That said if you can forget about analog stick games, the ServoStik is a better bet. I really like the Sanwa sticks for all round gaming and the auto-switching is superb (I rarely can be bothered to switch my standard J-Stiks and therefore don't play 4-way games with them). It is very capable for most 4 or 8 way games.