pop up panel - servo? spring? any suggestions?

[tony.silveira]

hi all,

i've started being active again on here since i just got a job (after 4 years of no work) and have started working on my cabinet again.  next up on my to do list, add servos for auto 4/8 way switching.  what an incredible idea that was that i found on here!

project after that will be to add two of these tiny keypads for consoles that had numeric keys (coleco, intellivision, 5200, jaguar, etc.)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/360454529148?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

simple way for me would be to route out a spot and have these flush mounted but who wants simple.  finding the servo 4/8 way mod got me thinking.  could i install these vertically, under the panel and when one of the systems is selected, they 'pop' up out of the panel (and hopefully make the star trek turbo lift door sound when they do "PPPPSSSSSS").  so maybe some kind of piston servo?

the other thought would be more manual.  have some kind of mechanism where you push in and it pops up a bit.  once that lip is exposed, pull it up completely.  when done, push it back down into the panel.

anyone have any thoughts/suggestions?

[darthpaul]

Maybe a servo to open the door and a small actuator to push up the keypad. Take a look at DaOld Man's Controlchoose, it is similar to Joychoose but can do much more. Take a look at my project, maybe you will get some ideas. 

[tony.silveira]

I got the idea from your cab, simply awesome!

but I'm not going with a door.  I'm thinking a small frame around the keypad.  have the very top edge be flush with the panel.  it would pop up, the. go back into the panel.  that top edge would of course be the same color/material as the panel so as to hide it.

loos like I have some planning ahead of me

[darthpaul]

You could probably get a servo to do that but it may not be strong enough to hold it up if you are pushing the buttons.

[RandyT]

the other thought would be more manual.  have some kind of mechanism where you push in and it pops up a bit.  once that lip is exposed, pull it up completely.  when done, push it back down into the panel.

anyone have any thoughts/suggestions?

Thick Memory foam stuck to the bottom of the keypad and a latch of some nature. It recovers slowly, so you might be able to get that slow lift into place.  Regular foam rubber might be better, though, for quicker recovery. The challenge would be getting it to come up straight and even.  If the keypad has straight, relatively smooth sides, and the well it sits in is dimensionally close, it should ride out evenly.  If not, a smooth rod fastened to the bottom of the keypad, and a bronze bushing in bottom of the well, will probably solve this.

Simple, but probably not as durable as the more complicated approaches.

RandyT

[PL1]

Tony,

When you mentioned press the panel and it pops up, I thought about a spring loaded magnetic catch like the one used on stereo cabinet doors.

Press the panel(green) and it causes a spring loaded catch(orange) to extend. Finger recesses are built into the top of a box that you pull up. Two small drawer guides(yellow) ensure that it goes up smooth and even. As the box reaches the top of the range of motion two spring loaded latches (red and blue) on the back pop out--like spring loaded wire stripper handles--to lock the box in the up position.  When you are done, slightly lift the box, squeeze the latches and slide the box down. Press on the panel to retract the spring loaded catch leaving the surface flush.

Advanced version--adjust the panel hole, slide and cover angles for a slightly inclined panel.


Scott

Edit--
Sample spring loaded wire strippers, spring-loaded catch, and drawer pulls: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5.

[Xiaou2]

A simple threaded rod (like a typical bolt), directly driven by a motor might be easy enough.
(might need a belt drive / gears to get more gearing ration for more power... depending on the motor you choose)

 Attach 2 matching nuts into the bottom of your keyboard frame.  Then, insert the threaded rod,
lock it in place, and wire it up to a rocker switch, which can be hidden under the control panel.


 Want easier?   Drill a small hole in the bottom of your Control Panel, and fashion a long travel button of some sort that you can use to bump the frame up enough to lift it by hand.  You can use magnets at the top of the CP, and bottom of the frame, to hold it in place.

[darthpaul]

Simple, but probably not as durable as the more complicated approaches.

RandyT

Simple is no fun.

[drventure]

Simple is no fun.

+1 

[crashwg]

Here's my take on what you're looking for.  Obviously a rough idea that would need testing before you would cut a hole in a CP...

I didn't draw a "closed" versing but basically the thing at the top fits the hole and with the radiused area sitting on the rounded ledge below it would create a flush CP.

[Le Chuck]

Here's my take on what you're looking for.  Obviously a rough idea that would need testing before you would cut a hole in a CP...

I didn't draw a "closed" versing but basically the thing at the top fits the hole and with the radiused area sitting on the rounded ledge below it would create a flush CP.

Haha, that's actually a pretty cool way to handle the problem.  I dig it. 

[tony.silveira]

Here's my take on what you're looking for.  Obviously a rough idea that would need testing before you would cut a hole in a CP...

I didn't draw a "closed" versing but basically the thing at the top fits the hole and with the radiused area sitting on the rounded ledge below it would create a flush CP.

first up, thanks everyone for their ideas, appreciate the feedback!

this plan with the actuator is pretty much what i came up with today while at work!  the only issue i see is that while it's lying flat, if the close command comes, will the actuator safely pull it back in?  obviously there will be some friction there until the keyboard stands back up.

anyone have any suggestions on an actuator for me?  i'm learning a lot from other posts on this automation but don't have any real world experience working with them yet so any suggestions are appreciated

[PL1]

One way to get the panel to stand back up is a small counterweight (green) that causes the panel to pivot upright once the 90 degree arm (gray) is no longer hitting against the striker block (red).

The black spot is the pivot point. Position this point slightly above the center of gravity of the whole assembly and let gravity do the work.

You can also add a small screw/bolt with two nuts and a rubber tip passing through the counterweight to brace the keypad. The rubber tip rests against the underside of the panel with one nut on each side of the counterweight allowing you to adjust the length.

Scott

[tony.silveira]

i did receive the keypads today.  i'll be making a new panel top in the next month or so so i have some time to do a couple of proof of concepts first.

anybody have any recommendations for the motor with the screw actuator thingy majig?

[darthpaul]

Remember you are going to need more than the actuator to make this work if you want it automated. You are going to need a way to reverse the motor.

[tony.silveira]

oh boy.  the actuator with the screw that pushes out doesn't screw back in?

I guess I have a bit more to learn

[PL1]

Here's a circuit that will allow you to reverse the polarity/direction of the actuator.

It uses a DPDT (double pole, double throw) momentary-on/off/momentary-on rocker switch that is spring loaded to return to center like this one.

When you press "up" on the rocker switch, it moves both throw arms (blue) to make contact and applies a + voltage through the normally closed (NC) upper limit switch (green) until the actuator pushes the keypad up far enough to press the upper limit switch and open the circuit (red) which stops the motor. Holding the rocker switch "up" after this will not cause it to move until the limit switch returns to closed.

To retract the keypad, press "down" on the rocker switch. The throw arms make contact and applies a + voltage through the normally closed lower limit switch (green) until the actuator pulls the keypad down far enough to press the lower limit switch and open the circuit (red) which stops the motor. Holding the rocker switch "down" after this will not cause it to move until the limit switch returns to closed.

You can also run it partially up or down, as desired.


Scott

[darthpaul]

This can be automated, I am using a similar circuit as PL1, except a Servo is acting as the rocker switch. I am then using ControlChoose to issue a USCCMD command to move the Servo to raise and lower my shifter and extend and retract my brake and gas pedals when a driving game is chosen. You can also have ControlChoose issue a command when choosing another emulator so your keypads would raise and lower automatically. 

[tony.silveira]

pl1 / darthpaul,

either of you up for some hand holding with a newb when it comes to servos?  in all honesty, it seems like a different language...

thanks

[darthpaul]

Always here to help.

[PL1]

pl1 / darthpaul,

either of you up for some hand holding with a newb when it comes to servos?  in all honesty, it seems like a different language...

thanks

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Tony.

Darthpaul is going to be the best one to help since he's got practical build experience with servos.

I've been working and playing with mechanical devices, electronics and wiring for 30+ years, and understand basic servo theory, but haven't done much hands on with them.

Let me know if there's anything I can do to help.


Scott

[PL1]

Here's an update/refinement to my earlier popup 2 diagram.

Light blue = CP
Dark blue = Keypad
Gray = Right angle arm
Black spot = Pivot point
Green = Upper limit switch
Red = Counterweight balanced to return the panel upright as it retracts
Yellow = Slider track path


Scott

[tony.silveira]

i sincerely appreciate everyones feedback and thoughts.  i love the ideas thrown around but i think they may be just beyond my skill set

i think i may be over analyzing this.  i came up with the following.  basically it just flips over and is held in place by rare earth magnets.  here is my thought:



now if i could find a way to have this flip over automatically, i'd be set.  i think if the pivot point was a gear, then a geared servo under the panel might flip this just fine.

dpaul, pl1, whatcha think?

[PL1]

Tony,

How much of a gap between the front/rear edge of the rotating part and the CP can you live with?

Remember that as a flat-ended panel rotates, the longest distance is from the center of the pivot point to the corner. to make this a simple 90 degree cut, it will require a gap equal to or greater than the difference between the distance from pivot to corner and the distance from pivot to center of the flat edge. a quick check with calipers on a .75" x 3.5" piece of wood indicates that you would need at least a 1/8" gap for that panel to turn. Longer panels of the same thickness would require less gap.

One way to reduce that gap is to round the edges as shown. You may want to see if you can find curved metal edging to reinforce the front and rear edges of the CP hole-- no ideas on a source for that.

Use some heat shrink to protect and provide strain relief for the wires passing through the cutouts. Make sure that the wire doesn't get trapped between the metal plate and the magnets.

Based on where the wires come out of your keypad, this diagram assumes the front of the cab is the right side of the diagram. 

The metal plate provides support during button presses.

Gray = Panel
Blue = Keypad
Red = Magnets
Green = Metal plate
Purple = Wire path/cutouts
Black = Drive gear/pivot


Scott

[tony.silveira]

thanks for all of the input guys, it really has helped.  i think i found a way to get the wiring thru.  for the pivot point, i'm going to use a small brass tube.  i'll be tackling this either today or tomorrow on some scrap wood, just do a proof of concept.  wish me luck...

oh, also, can some of you experts let me know if my thinking on the wiring of the keypad is correct?  pic is attached.  here is what i think it is:

button 1 - use pin 1 and 5, common 8
button 2 - use pin 1 and 6, common 8
button 3 - use pin 1 and 7, common 8

so on and so on, as printed on the board.

[DaOld Man]

It looks to me like that this is a matrix.
Pins 1 and 7 are button 3.
Pins 1 and 6 are button 2.
(just like you figured.)
Im not sure what the common would be for, unless there is led lights or a beeper on the board??

[tommyinajar]

Ever get the keyboard pads running? I'm curious how well they work with say, Intellivision...

[PL1]

The flipping keypad saga continues in this thread.
(Sounds like a mild epithet, but not intended as one.)

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121193.msg1285432.html#msg1285432

I know Tony has the panel flip working (video and pics in other thread) and the wires attached.  I assume he has tested the matrix-style encoder required for this type of keypad, but don't remember him mentioning which one he is using.

Any details on your encoder choice and source, Tony?


Scott

[tony.silveira]

The flipping keypad saga continues in this thread.
(Sounds like a mild epithet, but not intended as one.)

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121193.msg1285432.html#msg1285432

I know Tony has the panel flip working (video and pics in other thread) and the wires attached.  I assume he has tested the matrix-style encoder required for this type of keypad, but don't remember him mentioning which one he is using.

Any details on your encoder choice and source, Tony?


Scott

apologies guys, been picking up tons of hours at work so this has taken a back seat.

i have tested the matrix on the keypad itself and have figured it out.  i'll be wiring the keypad to a terminal block than pulling leads off and running to an ipac i have lying around.  i'll reprogram that ipad to be numeric pad keys and also the number keys.  in mess (which i use to emulated all of the keypad consoles), simply set up inputs for each player based on how the ipac is programmed.

this is going to sound lazy but the real reason thi is on the back burner, besides work, i'm not looking forward to exactly measuring out a diagram of my panel so i can get started on the artwork.  once the artwork is done, the panel should be up and running relatively shortly.

[PL1]

i have tested the matrix on the keypad itself and have figured it out.  i'll be wiring the keypad to a terminal block than pulling leads off and running to an ipac i have lying around.  i'll reprogram that ipad to be numeric pad keys and also the number keys.  in mess (which i use to emulated all of the keypad consoles), simply set up inputs for each player based on how the ipac is programmed.

How do you get an I-Pac (1 grounded input = 1 output keypress) to work as a matrix encoder (2 connected inputs = 1 output keypress)??!!??



It seems that if you were to connect the keypad to an I-Pac  and press the "6" button, you would output the associated keypresses for the inputs tied to "Row 2" and "Column 3" instead of outputting just one keypress.

Am I missing something on how I-Pacs work here?


Scott

[tony.silveira]

i haven't got it to work yet but this is what i'm figuring.

as an example, "key 1" requires pins 1 and 5 (pin 8 being the common ground).  from the terminal block, i'll pull 1 and 5 and wire them to whatever input the ipac is programmed for button 1.

for "key 2", pins 1 and 6 are required (8 being the common).  pull 1 and 6 from the terminal block to ipacs number "2" input

ah crap, i'm having a brain fart.  more testing when i get home, i don't think the above will work.

[PL1]

i haven't got it to work yet but this is what i'm figuring.

as an example, "key 1" requires pins 1 and 5 (pin 8 being the common ground).  from the terminal block, i'll pull 1 and 5 and wire them to whatever input the ipac is programmed for button 1.

for "key 2", pins 1 and 6 are required (8 being the common).  pull 1 and 6 from the terminal block to ipacs number "2" input

ah crap, i'm having a brain fart.  more testing when i get home, i don't think the above will work.

If you're building a matrix encoder from scratch, youll need to design a circuit with a dozen AND gates to make your keypad work with an I-Pac.

I PM'd you a link on May 29th for a matrix encoder board used by some flight sim guys.

http://www.opencockpits.com/catalog/usbkeys-card-p-53.html?cPath=21_35

This is the lowest cost programmable matrix encoder that I've seen.

Has anyone actually used this model?

Anyone have another recommendation?


Scott

Edit: Second possibility if you also want a 5-axis analog + 24 button matrix encoder.

http://www.opencockpits.com/catalog/axes-card-p-55.html?cPath=21_36

[tony.silveira]

24 buttons is perfect, each keypad has 12.  looks like I didn't fully think this thru.  thanks for the input, I'll look  lost at that link

[DaOld Man]

Here is the keypad I used for the digital lock on my workshed:

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/KP-12/12-BUTTON-KEYPAD/1.html

It has one common contact and a contact for each button, it is not set up on a matrix.

[tony.silveira]

Here is the keypad I used for the digital lock on my workshed:

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/KP-12/12-BUTTON-KEYPAD/1.html

It has one common contact and a contact for each button, it is not set up on a matrix.

thank you guys, looks like i'll get two new keypads.  back to the drawing board and a restart on my panel unless these keypads fit magically into what i already have made

thank god i didn't start the artwork yet

[darthpaul]

Don't feel bad, I have already redone two out of my three panels, including artwork.

[tony.silveira]

Don't feel bad, I have already redone two out of my three panels, including artwork.

not to bad, first time ever using a router so i think the next go around will be cleaner.  new keypads ordered today.  they are REALLY close in size to what i currently have so fingers crossed, they may just fit

[tony.silveira]

even though I have a working prototype with magnets, I was in my car today an grabbed my sunglasses from their holder and thought that mechanism would be great for these keypads.

anyone know what that type of mech is called?

push in on the glasses holder, it releases and swings open, spring loaded.  push it back up and it clicks into place.

I could buy a used unit on eBay but when looking at mine, the gears are way to big for these small keypads.

[Yvan256]

I got the idea from your cab, simply awesome!

but I'm not going with a door.  I'm thinking a small frame around the keypad.  have the very top edge be flush with the panel.  it would pop up, the. go back into the panel.  that top edge would of course be the same color/material as the panel so as to hide it.

loos like I have some planning ahead of me

Without a door, you'll have empty holes in your control panel once those numeric keypads are in use.

edit: never mind that, I thought the whole keypad was supposed to come out, like a regular Intellivision controller that you hold in your hands. Going with a rotating control flush with the whole CP really is the easiest idea. Can't wait to see how it turns out.

[PL1]

even though I have a working prototype with magnets, I was in my car today an grabbed my sunglasses from their holder and thought that mechanism would be great for these keypads.

anyone know what that type of mech is called?

push in on the glasses holder, it releases and swings open, spring loaded.  push it back up and it clicks into place.

I could buy a used unit on eBay but when looking at mine, the gears are way to big for these small keypads.

Sounds similar to the spring loaded magnetic latches you see on stereo cabinet doors.

Like this or this maybe?


Scott