Main Restorations Software Audio/Jukebox/MP3 Everything Else Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements Monitor/Video GroovyMAME Merit/JVL Touchscreen Meet Up Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing Woodworking Software Support Forums Consoles Project Arcade Reviews
Automated Projects Artwork Frontend Support Forums Pinball Forum Discussion Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board controls.dat Linux Miscellaneous Arcade Wiki Discussion Old Archives
Lightguns Arcade1Up --- Bug Reports --- Site News

Unread posts | New Replies | Recent posts | Rules | Chatroom | Wiki | File Repository | RSS | Submit news

  

Author Topic: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts  (Read 15701 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

rCadeGaming

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1255
  • Last login:February 22, 2020, 01:48:00 pm
  • Just call me Rob!
Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« on: March 13, 2012, 09:59:26 pm »
EDIT: AS SOME HAVE BEEN OFFENDED, I WANT TO POINT OUT THAT THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD IS MEANT JOKINGLY.  I DON'T REALLY THINK THAT PEOPLE WERE UNAWARE OF THESE THINGS BEFORE I CAME ALONG, IT'S MORE THAT I WONDERED WHY I DON'T SEE THEM MORE OFTEN.

I've been browsing the site and the forums for a couple of years now, and have to say that I'm surprised how rare it is to see a cabinet with any Japanese parts or design elements in them.  

Before I get started, let me say that my main interest in arcade games is in 2d fighting games first (Street Fighter, Samurai Shodown) and shooters second (Dodonpachi, Ikaruga).  My preferences are generally centered around these genres, so I can see how others' preferences may differ.  I will be linking to this website a lot, which I think is a must read for anyone building a control panel:

http://slagcoin.com/joystick/introduction.html

Also, here is a thread with some projects I've made using the things discussed below:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=118843.0

The first thing is the cabinet style; I always see them done in the American style.  Don't get me wrong, I understand the nostalgia, and these cabinets are often very well done, but it's not the only option.  One of my dream cabinets is an authentic American Ms. Pac-Man in mint condition.  Ms. Pac-Man originated here though.  When I'm playing something very Japanese, like Street Fighter III: Third Strike, it's sometimes nice to play it in a Japanese cabinet, like a Sega Astro City:

http://www.zax.com.au/astrocity.html

I would love to see a wooden cabinet built with an Astro City theme.  Cherry Wood with a light-colored stain, a real CRT, and big rounded corners in all the right places for that Astro City shape.

That cabinet would also need Japanese sticks and buttons, which are rare to see here.  I started out with crumby X-arcade controls, later moved up to Happ Competition sticks and buttons, but finally settled on a Sanwa JLF stick and Sanwa buttons.  For me, there is no going back.  When trying to execute complex moves in fighting games, the JLF's square restrictor gate, excellent leverless microswitches, low spring resistance, and smoothness, makes it twice as easy to do fireball and dragon punch motions, and block accurately.  If you are more into shooters than fighting games, you may prefer certain Seimitsu joysticks.  Check out this great table comparing the attributes of different joysticks:

http://slagcoin.com/joystick/attributes_brands.html#JOYSTICK_CHART

I think that fighters and shooters are the most technically demanding arcade games, as far as precise inputs go.  The fact that these sticks are suited for them should make them more than qualified for other genres.  I can play Donkey Kong and TMNT really well my JLF's.  

Joysticks can be customized as well.  If you wanted try a JLF but it feels loose, you can change the spring.  If you don't like ball tops you could use an adapter to make it a bat top.  I think the JLF's square restrictor gate is critical for fighters, but you could change it to an octagonal or circular gate if you wanted.  Seimitsus have the added option of a cross shaped gate to make a dedicated 4-way stick.  More info on modding joysticks:

http://slagcoin.com/joystick/attributes_brands.html#JOYSTICK_COMPONENTS_MIXING_AND_MODDING

Info on restrictor gates:

http://slagcoin.com/joystick/restrictors.html

The last thing is the button layouts.  This is one of my biggest pet peeves.  It's too often that I see the control buttons for each player laid out in a square layout like this:




Your hand is just not shaped like that.  Japan moved past this layout in the early 90's, take a look at this:



If you print that out, or even just hold your hands up to your screen, you'll see that it's curved properly to fit your hand.  The bottom row is skewed to the left a little bit so that your fingers can pivot comfortably between the two rows without having to move your arm.  Not only that but it places your arms and wrists at comfortable angle.  

If you try to place all four fingers along the bottom row of the square layout, your arm will be sticking out at a 45 degree angle or more (with you elbow in player two's way) unless you twist your wrist to a really uncomfortable angle.  Maybe some people are using their thumbs, but flicking your thumb sideways is a lot less responsive than just pressing down with your finger.  These problems are worst when trying to something that uses a row of four buttons across, like Neo Geo games.  

I would recommend anyone building a control to read this page on button layouts and try out several in a rough mock-up before making the final panel:

http://slagcoin.com/joystick/layout.html

I don't want to insult anyone, or single out any one cabinet.  Perhaps others aren't as serious about the same genres; maybe they don't play much with a four-across button layout.  I just wonder why I don't see of this stuff more often.  Overall cabinet style is a purely a visual preference, but I hope everyone putting in the effort to make these beautiful cabinets is putting enough thought into the controls.  I think how well the cabinet actually plays should be the most important part.

--

Since I'm already taking things that don't get enough attention I thought I should throw this in.  No one ever mentions the MC Cthulhu controller board:

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-official-cthulhu-and-chimp-thread-try-our-new-dreamcast-flavor.46572/

The main advantage of this board is that on top of PC, it adds easy support for the following systems:
Nintendo
Turbografx16/PC-Engine
Super Nintendo
3DO
Sega Saturn
Playstation
Dreamcast
Playstation 2
Gamecube
XBox
Wii (using Gamecube controller slots)
Playstation 3

You have to have one for each player, but they're only $35.  Also they're firmware upgradeable.

Oh, and this too.  The SLG-3000 Scanline Generator:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33454
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 07:40:32 pm by rCadeGaming »

paigeoliver

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10994
  • Last login:March 08, 2020, 01:29:40 pm
  • Awesome face!
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2012, 11:15:45 pm »
Great information here. I have to ask though if you truly prefer the japanese controls. Particularly the sticks. The sticks on my Super Neo 29 always felt sort of cheap. I used to have a Street Fighter 2 machine that had the normal Happ supers swapped out for the 8-way microswitch version of the classic wico stick and those just felt right with the game. However I was never an expert level player and perhaps the japanese sticks are better at doing special moves?

This is the joystick I am speaking of.

http://www.lizardlick.com/Wico-8-Way-Microswitch-Joystick-NOS-Orange_p_549.html
Acceptance of Zen philosophy is marred slightly by the nagging thought that if all things are interconnected, then all things must be in some way involved with Pauly Shore.

Yenome

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 530
  • Last login:March 22, 2020, 10:41:26 pm
  • Punch a fish. Make a wish
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2012, 11:57:06 pm »
that site was one of the first i found when i started looking for data on building a cab. i read it all front to back. and even tried a mockup CP with the sega japan layout. now that i look at it again i think when i do build my cab i will leave the 7th button on the right side of the 6. that is of course if i dont make both my middle buttons block and have that other one where it belongs for a MKist layout. I found the layout i tried uncomfortable. it seems like i needed to strech my fingers too far to hit the top buttons. but then again i could just be like every other american and be used to the square layout. if i hadnt messed up my mockup i would go try this layout out again
My Gf made me put a sig up. /whipped

paigeoliver

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10994
  • Last login:March 08, 2020, 01:29:40 pm
  • Awesome face!
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2012, 12:02:17 am »
I also think that 4th button in the bottom row would be a lot better over on the right as well. I wish my machine was done that way.
Acceptance of Zen philosophy is marred slightly by the nagging thought that if all things are interconnected, then all things must be in some way involved with Pauly Shore.

amendonz

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 503
  • Last login:December 02, 2017, 04:33:57 pm
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2012, 12:03:30 am »
It's also interesting to note p1 and p2 button layouts are slightly different to make up for the different angle your arms would be at as p2. The japanese were pretty clued up.
Also I prefer ls32 aswell, but my preference changes game to game, even games within the same series. Eg LS32 for ssf2t, jlf for sf2hf

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3957
  • Last login:April 16, 2017, 01:50:02 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2012, 12:05:36 am »
The generic plastic cabinets of Japan are just that... Generic Crap.

 They are made to be light, easy to move, easy to swap kits in and out of.
 The monitors are too large, and too close..  and the control panels are too small for good comfort.
 The raised buttons (convex) are horrible feeling.
 The joysticks are nothing special.
 
 But the worst... is the curved button layouts.

 Its completely Wrong to say that just because your hand shape is curved, that button arrangement should also be curved.   Your hand is only curved when its lying down FLAT!  When you are pressing buttons, your fingers are raised and bent... and so they form a STRAIGHT LINE!
Which is exactly why almost ALL keyboards have perfectly straight lines of keys.

 The curved layout was probably a means to try to save control panel space.. and or to make it look more interesting to the eye.  However, with a curved layout, you tend to hit the button edges more so than the actual center of the button.  This creates a bad feeling, and doesnt always fully depress the switch.

 The modern Japanese cabinets are not the true arcade experience.  They were a Generic creation of cost cutting, and space savings.  Made well after the true arcade days... they do not have the same spirit, comfort, looks, nor control.

amendonz

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 503
  • Last login:December 02, 2017, 04:33:57 pm
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2012, 12:08:48 am »
Also on the topic of where to put that 4th button, I honestly think the best thing to do is just use the jap 6 astro layout like this

234
1XX

For neo, feels all good

amendonz

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 503
  • Last login:December 02, 2017, 04:33:57 pm
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2012, 12:11:05 am »
yawn.. Classic Xiaou2

nitz

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 507
  • Last login:November 24, 2015, 07:57:29 pm
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2012, 02:02:23 am »
I plan to do a control panel in the coming month and have been considering a curved layout, but can't quite make up my mind...as much sense as the ergonomic argument seems to make, I'm used to the straight layout and am afraid that a curved layout may seem weird, especially for games that use 1 to 4 buttons - ie. most non-fighting games.

I am interested in seeing people debate the merits of each style.

Yenome

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 530
  • Last login:March 22, 2020, 10:41:26 pm
  • Punch a fish. Make a wish
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2012, 02:28:31 am »
true the japanese arcade machine may not have what we think is a true arcade machine. but most the game people played in the arcade was a clone of a japanese game. and in japan the arcade industry is still booming to this day. where as us here in the states have to go to places like dave and busters that are part arcade part bowling part restaurant. sometimes i wish i lived in japan just cause of the gaming scene there.
My Gf made me put a sig up. /whipped

DCsegaDH

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 298
  • Last login:September 18, 2013, 04:14:10 pm
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2012, 03:41:10 am »
I prefer the Japanese layout because its more comfortable for me, I think the American straight layout just seems unnatural (for me anyways). I like the curved Astro City layout mostly, their isn't a right or wrong, just 2 different opinions. 

Dawgz Rule

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 717
  • Last login:Today at 06:13:08 am
  • The more people I meet, the more I like my dogs
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2012, 07:07:50 am »
Always fun to see a discussion on joysticks and button layouts......  I kind of went with a slight curve...not too straight....not too curved.  Seems to work well.....for me.  Don't like the look of the japanese cabinets.....prefer the classic look.

brad808

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 818
  • Last login:April 03, 2020, 12:07:20 pm
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2012, 07:11:00 am »
When I built my control panel I specifically chose the classic capcom sf layout. I haven't actually tried a curved layout so I'm can't say its better or worse but I agree with Xiaou2 on the button layout. My hand doesn't lay flat while I play games I keep my hand raised off the buttons (Daigo Umehara style) so flat or curved buttons couldn't make much of a difference. I simply chose the layout that looked the best for my cabinet.

Trip

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 206
  • Last login:January 03, 2020, 01:37:04 pm
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2012, 07:50:16 am »
After printing out and trying both, I am thinking of going Xiaou2 or just a very very slight curve.  The curve is way over exaggerated for my play style.

Dawgz Rule

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 717
  • Last login:Today at 06:13:08 am
  • The more people I meet, the more I like my dogs
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2012, 08:15:43 am »
This is the template that I went with.  I have a seven button layout and opted to eliminate the upper left button.  Seems to work well for me and I have been able to play for hours without any issues.  People can be pretty passionate about button layouts and joysticks.  The important thing is to do research and pick the best combination that works for you.  Personally, I love the Mag-Stik plus but others hate it.  Again, personal preference.

Le Chuck

  • Saint, make a poll!
  • Wiki Contributor
  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5509
  • Last login:March 21, 2020, 05:21:44 pm
  • <insert personal text here>
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2012, 08:23:22 am »
I use a curved layout (the one pictured as a 6 actually) and love it, but I don't and never have hit the buttons like I type so I really don't think they keyboard analogy will hold water for everybody.  Besides, straight line keyboards are ergonomic nightmares meant to fit as many keys as possible into a useable space... not unlike some of the panels I see here from time to time.  ;D
 
When I play using a curved 6 button, or even a curved (offset) 2 button layout my right thump and pinky are anchored on the panel and my fingers lay flat on the buttons.  I am pushing the buttons with the finger pads not the finger tips.  I personally like this and find it reduces fatigue.  I'll knuckle up for track-n-field but other than that I haven't found a game that I can recall in which I need to change my hand position to improve play.      

Candy cabs are harder for the novice to build (lots fun curves) and that is why you don't see as many IMHO... oh and have you ever made a full candy out of MDF, sonnofabitch that sucker gets heavy when you start double and triple layering wood for those curved panels.

As for the sticks, I was under the impression that a lot of the sticks carried by RandyT and Andy were jap in origin but with minor or sometimes zero modifications.  Isn't the Omni2 a japstick at heart?    

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8619
  • Last login:Today at 05:57:03 pm
  • ...
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2012, 09:34:22 am »
Love my JLFs.
Just had to replace the spring with a stiffer one from a Seimitsu,
the switches with quieter zippys,
and the balltop with some smoother HandCandy from grooveygamegear.  :lol

Currently using round restrictors.  The octagons are good for training, you definitely always know where the stick is.

I read somewhere that the Japanese "pro" players never hit the restrictor.
They move the stick just far enough to trip the switches so they can transition faster.

The discussion about curved layouts makes me wonder if they also keep their hands flat instead of arched.  ???

ahofle

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4540
  • Last login:Today at 06:33:44 pm
    • Arcade Ambience Project
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2012, 10:52:07 am »
Love my JLFs.
Just had to replace the spring with a stiffer one from a Seimitsu,
the switches with quieter zippys,

I think that's exactly what I need to do.  My JLFs feel sloppy especially since I added the shaft extenders to them.  Where did you get your stiffer springs?
Oh, and FWIW, I used this layout (minus the two buttons on the far right) on my recent cocktail build.  It's nice, but I don't think it's a huge difference in terms of comfort or ergonomics.  Most shooters only have two buttons anyway.  I guess if you only play fighters it might be a big help in the long run.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 10:55:32 am by ahofle »

Jack Burton

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1384
  • Last login:October 10, 2019, 11:07:48 pm
  • I like video games.
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2012, 12:13:01 pm »
The generic plastic cabinets of Japan are just that... Generic Crap.

 They are made to be light, easy to move, easy to swap kits in and out of.
 The monitors are too large, and too close..  and the control panels are too small for good comfort.
 The raised buttons (convex) are horrible feeling.
 The joysticks are nothing special.
 
 But the worst... is the curved button layouts.

 Its completely Wrong to say that just because your hand shape is curved, that button arrangement should also be curved.   Your hand is only curved when its lying down FLAT!  When you are pressing buttons, your fingers are raised and bent... and so they form a STRAIGHT LINE!
Which is exactly why almost ALL keyboards have perfectly straight lines of keys.

 The curved layout was probably a means to try to save control panel space.. and or to make it look more interesting to the eye.  However, with a curved layout, you tend to hit the button edges more so than the actual center of the button.  This creates a bad feeling, and doesnt always fully depress the switch.

 The modern Japanese cabinets are not the true arcade experience.  They were a Generic creation of cost cutting, and space savings.  Made well after the true arcade days... they do not have the same spirit, comfort, looks, nor control.

Those generic plastic cabinets are one of the reasons the arcade industry in Japan is thriving to this day.  Some of them are made of metal btw.  

You're just so full of  :censored: and self-righteous it's amazing.  

I've played SF for years at the highest levels.  I started out with a MAS systems Super Pro Stick with a happ ultimate stick.  That was crap.  Then  I switched to an x-cade super knockoff.  That was a little better.  Then I used an IL sourced competition stick in it.  That was pretty good.  

Then, just as the japanese control craze started in the US I was an early adopter and tried out a Sanwa JLF plus Sanwa convex 30mm pushbuttons.  I built my own case to house them in and used the exact layout off of the 1st player side of an astro cab.  

I've never looked back.  It's by far the best hardware and layout for competitive fighting games, and that's why it has risen to be the standard for tournament play.  

Each year in Columbus, OH they host the Season's Beatings fighting game tournament.  And each year there is a Super Street Fighter II tournament.  The entry fee is $50.  The very best players from all around the country come there to play.

Do you know what controls they use?  Japanese in a Japanese cabinet with a Japanese layout.  These guys are killers.  They all have literally thousands of hours logged into these games. They take every advantage they can to improve their gameplay.  If there were anything inferior about these controls they would have hammered out the differences a long time ago.  

I love wooden cabinets, I love MAME.  I love this site.  And I know most of you guys have a much more even-minded point of view.   So I'm sorry if this sounds harsh.  But in the -true- (hate that term) arcade scene these days, it' s Japan or nothing.  
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 10:30:13 pm by Jack Burton »

eds1275

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2101
  • Last login:April 05, 2020, 03:18:09 pm
  • Rock and Roll!
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2012, 12:15:10 pm »
I grew up with straight button layouts, and am not a pro gamer. I think that while the curves may or may not be ergonomic, the straight layout feels right to me so that's what I'm going to use, no matter what sort of medical science papers and hand curvature graphs you may post.  :P

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8619
  • Last login:Today at 05:57:03 pm
  • ...
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2012, 12:35:35 pm »
I think that's exactly what I need to do.  My JLFs feel sloppy especially since I added the shaft extenders to them.  Where did you get your stiffer springs?

I think I ordered them from LizardLick, but that was before people started posting on here that they weren't getting their orders.  
(I wouldn't order anything unless it shows in stock)

I've placed exactly one order from www.focusattack.com and received my parts just fine.

I'd have to look at my receipt to see which spring I used.
EDIT: looked it up in my order history, it was a Seimitsu LS-55 Spring.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 09:09:25 pm by BadMouth »

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 5836
  • Last login:Today at 08:17:55 pm
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2012, 07:31:13 pm »
I've been browsing the site and the forums for a couple of years now, and have to say that I'm surprised how rare it is to see a cabinet with any Japanese parts or design elements in them.  
I wouldn't say it's rare. There a LOT of projects here that use JLW's, JLF's and LS-32's as well as button layouts similar to the candy cabinets. Even Ultimarc's P360 is based on a JLW base and parts.

Quote
The first thing is the cabinet style; I always see them done in the American style.  Don't get me wrong, I understand the nostalgia, and these cabinets are often very well done, but it's not the only option.  One of my dream cabinets is an authentic American Ms. Pac-Man in mint condition.  Ms. Pac-Man originated here though.  When I'm playing something very Japanese, like Street Fighter III: Third Strike, it's sometimes nice to play it in a Japanese cabinet, like a Sega Astro City:

http://www.zax.com.au/astrocity.html
While this may be applicable to some, most of the members on this site are American-based, so their nostagia is centered around woodie cabinets with either Happs or Wico sticks. I've found that a lot of people from this hemisphere dislike the candy style cabinets because it's not something they're used to seeing in their arcade youth.
Most people have only seen fighting games played in Dynamos or other converted cabinets, rather than candy's.  So why would someone who's building their "dream cabinet" want to build something they don't like?

Another thing to factor in is that creating those curves from a candy cabinet with wood takes a bit of experience and tools to get right. Most of the projects built here are from people that don't have the wood working skills to pull off those lines, whereas woodie stand-up cabinets are easier to get a shape out of.

Quote
I would love to see a wooden cabinet built with an Astro City theme.  Cherry Wood with a light-colored stain, a real CRT, and big rounded corners in all the right places for that Astro City shape.
There are a few cabinet projects here that are based on Candy cabinets like an Astro. Try the search tool.

Quote
That cabinet would also need Japanese sticks and buttons, which are rare to see here.
Again, you'll need to read more project threads. Lots of people use Japanese parts for their panels here.

Quote
I don't want to insult anyone, or single out any one cabinet.  Perhaps others aren't as serious about the same genres; maybe they don't play much with a four-across button layout.  Overall cabinet style is a purely a visual preference, but it just seems to me that there needs to be more awareness of the other options available in terms joysticks, buttons, and layouts.  I hope everyone putting in the effort to make these beautiful cabinets is putting enough thought into the controls.  I think how well the cabinet actually plays should be the most important part.

While I appreciate your write-up, and agree that your heart is in the right place, there are a lot of statements here which are assumed and less factual than reality. You can still be serious about a genre and adhere to what feels comfortable to you in regards to controls. Also, raising the awareness of "japanese sensibilities" is fine, but it's not everyone's taste nor does it cater to all skill-levels.

Quote
Since I'm already taking things that don't get enough attention I thought I should throw this in.  No one ever mentions the MC Cthulhu controller board:

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-official-cthulhu-and-chimp-thread-try-our-new-dreamcast-flavor.46572/

The main advantage of this board is that on top of PC, it adds easy support for the following systems:
Nintendo
Turbografx16/PC-Engine
Super Nintendo
3DO
Sega Saturn
Playstation
Dreamcast
Playstation 2
Gamecube
XBox
Wii (using Gamecube controller slots)
Playstation 3
The MC Cthultu is a nice piece of hardware, but it's soon to be out dated by the newer PS360+'s that are hopefully coming out in the next little while. (Biggest cock-tease ever? yes.)

Also note that building a cabinet with console support can be an issue depending on what monitor is being used. I.e, you need more than just this board to get the listed consoles you have there hooked up to your cabinet, like how to output the video properly.  You see a lot of people using computer LCD's, or old CRT's that take VGA connections (or s-video if you're using those Dell monitors), even actual Arcade monitors, so you'll need a video up-converter to get those console connected. This could benefit those who use regular TV's I guess, but the pain and convulsion of having a lot of consoles hooked up at once is a bit daunting.

This is why most people are build Mame PC machines in their projects and run emulators.

In any case, I for one appreciate the effort. But for me and my purist ways, I say do what makes you happy, and keep the wood-work for American style cabinets and American style sensibilities (it pains my Canadiana to say that ;) ) and fibreglass work for those with the skill...and Ond...that guy is a master at any material that is tangible in general.  :D

If anything, the thing that can be taken away from Japenese cabinet design is their use of space and accessibility to internals. The pull-out boards (akin to Dynamo drawers) is brilliant. The piano-hinged CP's, the lift-up monitor bezels and rotation mechanisms in Candy's are just plain smart. All in all, I think Candy cabinets are made very intelligent in terms of serviceability. That's what I'd like to see more of in projects here.

DaveMMR

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3200
  • Last login:January 16, 2020, 05:38:01 pm
    • TeeVee Games
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2012, 09:14:35 pm »
I think when it comes to button layout, I could be swayed in either direction. I like the simplicity and recognizability of the American "straight" layout, but I can see the aesthetic appeal of the curved (can't attest to it being "better" or "worse", haven't really tried it out all that much).

I've always been the guy who warns new designers not to "overthink" ergonomics though.  I feel that it gives birth to some bizarre button layouts (e.g. straight up?!?)  Sticking with either straight or slight curves (like discussed thoroughly here). And of course, if your goal is to become a professional-level fighting game player, definitely mimic what the layout the pros use.

paigeoliver

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10994
  • Last login:March 08, 2020, 01:29:40 pm
  • Awesome face!
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2012, 10:26:38 pm »
If you are going for a more general cabinet you might want to note that the japanese style sticks that are so good for fighting games are not nearly so good at other genres.

I can't speak for individual stick models because I have never bothered to try to identify which ones I am using, but they tend to be worse than average at controlling classic era games, underperforming in space shooters and seriously underperforming in 4-way games (even in 4-way mode).
Acceptance of Zen philosophy is marred slightly by the nagging thought that if all things are interconnected, then all things must be in some way involved with Pauly Shore.

Ond

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1886
  • Last login:April 06, 2020, 10:49:55 pm
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2012, 10:27:42 pm »
I love my Japanese controls - modded JLW sticks and Seimitsu buttons in a slightly curved arrangement.  Seimitsu buttons are very quiet but not quite as super sensitive as their Sanwa equivalents (which I prefer) Rather than argue straight versus curved my suggestion is make a cardboard CP or quick plywood mock-up and try out different patterns for yourself on YOUR favourite games.  Go with maximum comfort and performance on that basis.  Everyones hands are a little different, for example I'm damned if I can make my fingers sit in a straight line either when bent or straight, I can almost manage it but I get the shakes   :laugh2: .  

rCadeGaming

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1255
  • Last login:February 22, 2020, 01:48:00 pm
  • Just call me Rob!
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2012, 10:34:59 pm »
I have to ask though if you truly prefer the japanese controls. Particularly the sticks.
...
I was never an expert level player and perhaps the japanese sticks are better at doing special moves?

Absolutely.  The stick is crucial.  Try doing shoryukens in Super Street Fighter II Turbo (forward, down, down-forward + punch).  This type of input is common to most 2-D fighting games, and Street Fighter II's strict requirements to perform it illustrate how much easier it is perform with some sticks than others.  Since Turbo plays faster, you also have to input it correctly in a shorter period of time for it to work.  Some newer games have workarounds to accept sloppy inputs, but absolute precision is still required for high-level play.

Anyhow, try some shoryukens in Super Turbo.  I found them to be difficult to pull off consistently with a Happ/IL stick.  Doing a couple in a row was tough just against a dummy, let alone under pressure in a match.  After switching to a Sanwa JLF, it is was immediately much easier.  

Some people are able to practice enough to eventually be consistent with American sticks, but that's a huge hump in the learning curve that you don't have deal with on a Japanese stick.  It's a better starting point.  Even if you're already used to an American stick, you might already start to improve further just in the adjustment process of switching over.

Like the Happ/IL competition, the JLF has the advantage of unlevered microswitches; but it uses a round actuator, unlike the Competition's square one which rotates and engages kind of sloppily.  Like most Japanese sticks, the JLF also pivots much smoother on its spherical pivot than most American sticks do on their cylindrical pivots.  The restrictor gate is also very important.

I read somewhere that the Japanese "pro" players never hit the restrictor.
They move the stick just far enough to trip the switches so they can transition faster.

I think this is true.   I'm not that good, I think I bump it often, and I like the way the square restrictor lets you know where the diagonals are.  This is really useful for blocking as well as executing attacks.  For the pros, they might not ever touch it, but the square restrictor gives them the space to work in, and everyone can benefit from the way it gives all eight directions equal areas of engagement.  From slagcoin:



With both circular and octagonal restrictors, the spacing of the engages is usually based toward equal spacing along the restrictor (the throw areas). With square restrictors, the spacing of the engages is usually based toward equal neutral and engage zone sizes (a nine square grid of equal sizes). Note, however, that most joysticks are not precise to these goals.

It can be difficult to balance the size of each direction's throw edge with the size of each direction's engage zone when eight directions are created using only four switches. With a circular or octagonal gate, you can easily divide the throws equally, but the engage zones for diagonals are going to suffer.


I've played SF for years at the highest levels.  I started out with a MAS systems Super Pro Stick with a happ ultimate stick.  That was crap.  Then  I switched to an x-cade super knockoff.  That was a little better.  Then I used an IL sourced competition stick in it.  That was pretty good.

Then, just as the japanese control craze started in the US I was an early adopter and tried out a Sanwa JLF plus Sanwa convex 30mm pushbuttons.  I built my own case to house them in and used the exact layout off of the 1st player side of an astro cab.  

I've never looked back.  It's by far the best hardware and layout for competitive fighting games, and that's why it has risen to be the standard for tournament play.  

Each year in Columbus, OH they host the Season's Beatings fighting game tournament.  And each year there is a Super Street Fighter II tournament.  The entry fee is $50.  The very best players from all around the country come there to play.

Do you know what controls they use?  Japanese in a Japanese cabinet with a Japanese layout.  These guys are killers.  They all have literally thousands of hours logged into these games. They take every advantage they can to improve their gameplay.  If there were anything inferior about these controls they would have hammered out the differences a long time.  

Exactly.

The sticks on my Super Neo 29 always felt sort of cheap.

Nice cab, you're lucky.  I know they're a pain in the butt to service because they don't swing open like most candy cabs, but I'd certainly like to have one if I had the chance for a good deal.  

I think they came stock with Seimitsu LS-40's.  Like most Japanese sticks, they have a pretty weak spring resistance.  I like how light of a touch it takes to use them, but to some it does feel cheap.  Like I said, it's easy to swap the spring out and make it feel as tough as an American stick.  

You might have also disliked the very short engage and throw distances of the LS-40, this a big advantage for shooters but some don't think it's suited for fighting games and other genres.  I'm considering switching to an LS-40 for certain games, but right now I generally prefer a JLF.

I used to have a Street Fighter 2 machine that had the normal Happ supers swapped out for the 8-way microswitch version of the classic wico stick and those just felt right with the game.

I've tried a lot of sticks but this is one I don't know about.  I know Wico's 4-way leafswitched sticks were hugely popular in the 80's and played great in things like Donkey Kong, Mario Bros., Pac-Man, etc., but I've never tried a Wico that was 8-way or microswitched.

I emailed the owner of Slagcoin.com (anyone know his name, I couldn't find it anywhere) and asked him if he'd be willing to add that to his comparisons.  Too bad they're out of stock at LizardLick.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 10:44:34 pm by rCadeGaming »

paigeoliver

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10994
  • Last login:March 08, 2020, 01:29:40 pm
  • Awesome face!
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2012, 11:01:05 pm »

I've tried a lot of sticks but this is one I don't know about.  I know Wico's 4-way leafswitched sticks were hugely popular in the 80's and played great in things like Donkey Kong, Mario Bros., Pac-Man, etc., but I've never tried a Wico that was 8-way or microswitched.

I emailed the owner of Slagcoin.com (anyone know his name, I couldn't find it anywhere) and asked him if he'd be willing to add that to his comparisons.  Too bad they're out of stock at LizardLick.

Wico leaf sticks were actually most common in the lesser known titles and in the early conversion game era. Midway had their own leaf stick design for the Pac games, and Nintendo had their own joysticks as well (microswitch ones at that!!)

The 8-way microswitch wicos with the rubber grommet are sort of rare birds, mostly being shipped in the late 80s/early 90s on Sega and Konami games.

At least one of the common Happ/iL bat top sticks actually favors the diagonals, I think it is the Ultimate, but may be the competition (avoid them both as they are awful).
Acceptance of Zen philosophy is marred slightly by the nagging thought that if all things are interconnected, then all things must be in some way involved with Pauly Shore.

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8619
  • Last login:Today at 05:57:03 pm
  • ...
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2012, 11:13:02 pm »
first, a disclaimer....I'm a button masher and not qualified to be arguing minute details of fighting sticks.  ;)
(someday I'd like to study the games and get better at them)

but...just to play devil's advocate  >:D
Regarding the diagram above, I'm not convinced that the total area that would register a direction is all that important.
If a player uses the restrictor to guide them through the move, the circular or octagon restrictor makes more sense because the joystick is travelling the same distance through each zone.  With the square gate, you have a longer distance to travel through the corner and the motion isn't as fluid.

northerngames

  • Trade Count: (+18)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2927
  • Last login:April 09, 2016, 04:18:51 pm
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2012, 12:24:50 am »
In the OP I hate that layout and with american hands they dont fit.

I would play like I was crippled in the hands.

after hundreds if not thousands of hours on a street fighter layout it just feel's more natural over others.

mk with the 5 button is the best feel for that game for me also over any other.

I just dont like the offset buttons even neo-geo I dont care for but that pic would make me feel like I am typing on a mini micro keyboard with two large hands it just dont feel/work right.

even on a bartop or mini cab it would still be weird.


rCadeGaming

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1255
  • Last login:February 22, 2020, 01:48:00 pm
  • Just call me Rob!
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2012, 01:19:09 am »
Wico leaf sticks were actually most common in the lesser known titles and in the early conversion game era. Midway had their own leaf stick design for the Pac games, and Nintendo had their own joysticks as well (microswitch ones at that!!)

Gotcha, maybe I'm thinking of people referring to them as "Wico-style" sticks?  Did the Nintendo ones use rubber grommets?

At least one of the common Happ/iL bat top sticks actually favors the diagonals, I think it is the Ultimate, but may be the competition (avoid them both as they are awful).

Yeah, if you look at the diagram of the circular gate you can see how that will happen if the engage points are moved in too close, away from the gate.

but...just to play devil's advocate  >:D
Regarding the diagram above, I'm not convinced that the total area that would register a direction is all that important.
If a player uses the restrictor to guide them through the move, the circular or octagon restrictor makes more sense because the joystick is travelling the same distance through each zone.  With the square gate, you have a longer distance to travel through the corner and the motion isn't as fluid.

Your argument that it's more important for the eight directions to be allotted an equal distance around the circumference than an equal area of movement is certainly interesting.  However it assumes that you'll be riding the gate all the time, which you shouldn't be.  You said that the pros never do.  I touch the gate sometimes but I don't ride it.  The square gate doesn't have to disrupt circular motions; throwing hadoukens isn't any more difficult for me with the square than the round.

To me, the other problem with the round gate is that you have no tangible reference of where the directions are.  I don't ride the square gate when performing attacks, but I do hold against it while blocking which gives me a natural understanding of where the directions are instead of having to think out how I'm holding my hand in relation to the control panel or the screen.  For example, without a reference it gets hard to block high without accidentally blocking low or jumping.

I have to be honest with you guys.  I love arguing this stuff out like we're on the debate team, but it takes me all night to write this stuff out.  It's cutting into my time working on my cabinet.  :lol

As far as square vs. circle, I guess if you're totally at one with your exact layout you would automatically know the exact engage points without needing that physical reference.  It's just that for me the square seems to have the largest open space on the JLF, staying out of your way if you really intend on never touching the gate.  I should try the circle gate again, now that they're being sold for the JLF.  I've really only used in Happs/IL's/X-Arcades and Seimitsus.  I tried the octagon, but it's the worst, it's too small and restrictive.  I gives you constant reference while you're bumping into it all the time.

i think when i do build my cab i will leave the 7th button on the right side of the 6. that is of course if i dont make both my middle buttons block and have that other one where it belongs for a MKist layout.

I also think that 4th button in the bottom row would be a lot better over on the right as well. I wish my machine was done that way.

I think all of the layouts on Slagcoin are meant to use the leftmost buttons for 6-button play.  This is the layout I use:



It's the Sega Astro City Player 1 Layout I posted, minus the top right button and with the stick in the further left position.  Yenome, I'm not big into Mortal Kombat so I just put run on the pinky button, and block on both the center buttons like you said.  If you really wanted to you could use my layout plus a thumb button to make MK a little more correct.

Is this what you guys were talking about or were you referring to the square layout?

Also on the topic of where to put that 4th button, I honestly think the best thing to do is just use the jap 6 astro layout like this

234
1XX

For neo, feels all good

This is the template that I went with.  I have a seven button layout and opted to eliminate the upper left button.



To me the problem with these layouts is the angle it puts your hand at.  If you put your hands down on a table in front of you, and look at your right hand, you'll notice that your pinky is lower than your pointer finger, or at most about even with it (whether your fingers are laying flat or curled up).  Button layouts which position the pinky button a lot higher than the pointer finger button force you to rotate your hand counter clockwise.  This means you have to either hold your arm at a 45 degree angle to the panel (sticking out in player 2's way) or twist your wrist pretty badly.

Pick the curve that's right for you, I just think the overall layout should be rotated to position your arm and wrist comfortably.

It's also interesting to note p1 and p2 button layouts are slightly different to make up for the different angle your arms would be at as p2. The japanese were pretty clued up.

I think this is evidence that these cabinets/layouts had more thought put into them in terms of playability.

Also I prefer ls32 aswell, but my preference changes game to game, even games within the same series. Eg LS32 for ssf2t, jlf for sf2hf

I've said I prefer the JLF for fighting games, but I want to try the LS-40 for shooters.  Can I ask why you prefer different sticks for two games that are so similar?  Also, what is it you prefer about the LS-32?  Any mods to it?

People can be pretty passionate about button layouts and joysticks.  The important thing is to do research and pick the best combination that works for you.  Personally, I love the Mag-Stik plus but others hate it.  Again, personal preference.

That's one of the reasons I made this thread.  I don't want to tell everyone they should use the same design elements as I do.  I just want to present the arguments, encourage people to do the research by trying all the options for themselves and thinking it out, and then decide their own preference.  

I'm not saying everyone does this, but I think sometimes people default to the square layouts and American parts because they decide that the other options aren't worth their time to look into before they've even given them a chance.

When someone says they have given both sides an equal chance and they prefer one or the other, I can respect that, even if it's the opposite of what I would choose.  When someone puts their fingers in their ears and says the only option they have really tried has to be the best, I cannot.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 11:01:03 am by rCadeGaming »

amendonz

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 503
  • Last login:December 02, 2017, 04:33:57 pm
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2012, 01:30:24 am »
I like the feel of jlf but the dead zone is quite large making it feel less precise. great for lenient inputs fighters but I like faster switch actuation the ls32 has.  try loading up sf2hf then ssf2t,

LeedsFan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1042
  • Last login:May 02, 2019, 11:33:03 am
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2012, 04:05:10 am »
While it's true to say that the original arcade "feel" of a dedicated cab from the early 80s cannot be compared (to a generic cab), the Japanese controls are far, far better in my opinion. It's all down to personal taste in the end, but I feel that the US controls are designed for primates to hang off the end of the control panel with. I love the accurate feel of the Japanese controls, and aside from reasons of originality in a dedicated cab or replica I would always choose to go for Japanese controls.

Yenome

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 530
  • Last login:March 22, 2020, 10:41:26 pm
  • Punch a fish. Make a wish
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2012, 04:26:36 am »
It's the Sega Astro City Player 1 Layout I posted, minus the top right button and with the stick in the further left position.  Yenome, I'm not big into Morbutton to make MK a little more correct.tal Kombat so I just put run on the pinky button, and block on both the center buttons like you said.  If you really wanted to you could use my layout plus a thumb

Is this what you guys were talking about or were you referring to the square layout?

I was talking bout the square layout, just with the 7th button on the right side instead of the left. I think Paigeoliver was speaking of the same.
I used the same layout as dawgs in my mockup and i used a square layout on my cheap fight stick. Tho now i think im gonna try the astro city layout and leave the 4th button on the right as you said. are those sticks you made based from the slagcoin website. or a custom design. i cant decide on the size of my fight stick those yours looks to be a nice size.
My Gf made me put a sig up. /whipped

rCadeGaming

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1255
  • Last login:February 22, 2020, 01:48:00 pm
  • Just call me Rob!
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2012, 11:46:11 am »
The generic plastic cabinets of Japan are just that... Generic Crap.

 They are made to be light, easy to move, easy to swap kits in and out of.

Those are all advantages.

If anything, the thing that can be taken away from Japenese cabinet design is their use of space and accessibility to internals. The pull-out boards (akin to Dynamo drawers) is brilliant. The piano-hinged CP's, the lift-up monitor bezels and rotation mechanisms in Candy's are just plain smart. All in all, I think Candy cabinets are made very intelligent in terms of serviceability. That's what I'd like to see more of in projects here.

true the japanese arcade machine may not have what we think is a true arcade machine. but most the game people played in the arcade was a clone of a japanese game.

Those generic plastic cabinets are one of the reasons the arcade industry in Japan is thriving to this day.  Some of them are made of metal btw.  

The monitors are too large, and too close..  and the control panels are too small for good comfort.

I think a larger tri-sync monitor is a big advantage, but I can understand how you feel it's mounted too close to your face.

While I love the button layouts on Japanese cabinets, I do agree the player 1 and 2 controls are sometimes squished to close together.  Most cabinets suffer from this though, they have to be fairly thin so that they don't take up too much floor space.  At least Japanese cabinets correct for this by adjust the angle of the player 2 controls a little.

The raised buttons (convex) are horrible feeling.
The joysticks are nothing special.

What a logical, detailed argument, let's remember what you said about convex buttons.

But the worst... is the curved button layouts.

Its completely Wrong to say that just because your hand shape is curved, that button arrangement should also be curved.   Your hand is only curved when its lying down FLAT!  When you are pressing buttons, your fingers are raised and bent... and so they form a STRAIGHT LINE!
Which is exactly why almost ALL keyboards have perfectly straight lines of keys.

Your fingers don't make any less of a curve when you curl them up than they do laying flat.  They only do if you curl some fingers up a lot more than others; this isn't comfortable or natural, it's forced by the button layout.  The layout should conform to your hand, not the other way around.  

Also, straight line keyboards are not known to be comfortable, natural, or healthy.  Ever hear of an ergonomic keyboard?  Ever hear of carpal tunnel syndrome?

I use a curved layout (the one pictured as a 6 actually) and love it, but I don't and never have hit the buttons like I type so I really don't think they keyboard analogy will hold water for everybody.  Besides, straight line keyboards are ergonomic nightmares meant to fit as many keys as possible into a useable space...

I love my Japanese controls - modded JLW sticks and Seimitsu buttons in a slightly curved arrangement.
...
Everyones hands are a little different, for example I'm damned if I can make my fingers sit in a straight line either when bent or straight, I can almost manage it but I get the shakes   :laugh2: .  

with a curved layout, you tend to hit the button edges more so than the actual center of the button.  This creates a bad feeling, and doesnt always fully depress the switch.

You're getting these problem because you're using poor concave buttons that don't move smoothly or actuate responsively.  This is why there are convex buttons, you shouldn't have to hold your hand a certain way to get the buttons to work properly.  Again, the control panel should conform to your hand, not the other way around.

When I built my control panel I specifically chose the classic capcom sf layout. I haven't actually tried a curved layout so I'm can't say its better or worse but I agree with Xiaou2 on the button layout. My hand doesn't lay flat while I play games I keep my hand raised off the buttons (Daigo Umehara style) so flat or curved buttons couldn't make much of a difference. I simply chose the layout that looked the best for my cabinet.

Daigo uses the curved layout.  Your fingers don't make a straight line whether they rested on the buttons or held in the air.

Daigo's hands:




brad808

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 818
  • Last login:April 03, 2020, 12:07:20 pm
Re: Re: Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2012, 12:42:07 pm »
.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 05:20:50 pm by brad808 »

Jack Burton

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1384
  • Last login:October 10, 2019, 11:07:48 pm
  • I like video games.
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2012, 07:23:31 pm »
I feel like I need to make a little addendum to my strong worded post earlier in this thread and talk about one of my experiences with some rather "inferior" controls. 

This is a Nintendo VS. cocktail.  Also known as a red tent. 



It's playing my favorite VS game, and one of my favorite arcade games of all time: VS Super Mario Bros. 

Now, the joysticks on the VS. cabinet are sort of strange.  They are very squishy, spongy feeling.  Sort of like the joystick on a Donkey Kong cab.  The buttons are also quite mushy. 

Because of the the controls this game has an entirely different character from console game.  It's much harder to control Mario, and time his jumps correctly.  You have to sort of mentally compensate for the sloppyness of the controls, and how much the joystick will bounce around when you let go of it.  This greatly increases the difficulty of the game, and makes it much more arcade-y in my opinion. 

I played one of these cocktails only one time in my life.  I played it at Jason Wilson's Game Galaxy in Nashville, TN.  When I got home I immediately tried playing it on my PC.  But something was missing.  It seemed way too easy.  The long jumps that killed me over and over in the arcade were very easy with my sidewinder joypad at home. 

I figured I might do better by switching to a joystick, but my Sanwa sticks were too responsive and still made the game too easy.  Even the competition joystick in my MAS stick was the same.  The real magic of the game was in that Nintendo joystick.  To me, that was a fundamental part of the game itself.  By using "better" controls, I ruined the experience for myself. 

So, in my earlier post I used the term "true arcade culture" in reference to the guys who play fighting games on cabs in tournaments.  Well, they don't represent everybody.  The arcade culture of this site, with all the MAME cabs, restorations, crazy concepts, etc.  That's just as legit as the guy who has a single Astro Cab in his basement with a bunch of CPS2 and Cave pcbs. 

So why don't we use the superior Japanese joysticks?  Well, sometimes superior isn't right.

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3957
  • Last login:April 16, 2017, 01:50:02 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2012, 09:04:00 pm »
Quote
Those are all advantages.

 The thing is... that they are Generic.  If your running a Generic Arcade... then its OK.  Cause everyone knows that most modern games today dont have any soul anymore... so why bother making cabinet art?  Or cabinets that have unique qualities?   Gone are the days when cabinets actually had great cabinet art, like Journey, or Discs of Tron Environmental.



Quote
true the japanese arcade machine may not have what we think is a true arcade machine. but most the game people played in the arcade was a clone of a japanese game.

 While Japanese have created some great games... Lets not get too high and mighty.  Atari created some incredible original classics.  And look at Williams...  Defender, Robotron, and a bunch of other excellent classics.

 Finally, even though the LATER Japanese games were generic... there were many older cabinets that had great looks and innovative features.

 The problem is that your just a Fanboy of a certain time period.   Im Not.  Im a fan of good games... and that means, any time period.  Im not hung up on ego, which is exactly why your panties are all in a bunch.


Quote
Those generic plastic cabinets are one of the reasons the arcade industry in Japan is thriving to this day.  Some of them are made of metal btw. 

 Sorry to tell you this.. but Japanese arcades are not doing very well compared to the past.  Most of them survive merely because of high population density.  Meaning..  there are soooo many people in one small area, that its nearly impossible to fail.  Another reason, is that most of the Japanese arcades are home of Pachinko & Slot machine style gambling machines.

 If you bring over some of the Japanese games to many American spots.. or lower population density areas... they will get ignored.   How do I know this???  Because I was a Manager of a USA mall location Namco arcade.  The locations of stores in higher density areas... got higher sales.  They were also the last to have to close up.


Quote
I think a larger tri-sync monitor is a big advantage, but I can understand how you feel it's mounted too close to your face.

 The Midway 25" monitors were even a little large, and they were a lot further away than most Japanese machines.   Its like sitting 1ft away from your TV.  Its stupid...  But its necessary, in a tightly cramped Japanese arcade.

 If the Japanese had the room, even They wouldnt have made the generic cabinets w/ face hugging, eye burning, EMF zapping monitors.

Quote
At least Japanese cabinets correct for this by adjust the angle of the player 2 controls a little.

 There are many ways to utilize space.  For example, you can leave your elbows out, which puts your hands at an angle... OR... you can but them directly in front of your body... which will save a lot of space... and not require change your hand angles.


Quote
What a logical, detailed argument, let's remember what you said about convex buttons.

 Feel is very important to how something operates.  Almost all buttons which are critical, are concave.  It makes it easier to tell where your fingers are.  Keeps your fingers from slipping off / out.  Directs the fingers to the center of the button, which keeps the button mechanically more effective.

 As for the sticks, they are not anything innovative.  Pivot balls have been done before.  The sticks feel cheap, fragile, super clicky.  Some have throws which are way too tight.  A lot of them have Hideous color schemes.


Your fingers don't make any less of a curve when you curl them up than they do laying flat.  They only do if you curl some fingers up a lot more than others; this isn't comfortable or natural, it's forced by the button layout.  The layout should conform to your hand, not the other way around. 

 When you spread your fingers apart, and bend them, they line up quite well.  If you extend your middle finger too far... where it would so called "Naturally Be", it lies too flat, and becomes more difficult to effectively press the button.  You want to press the the button vertically, using a straight path, gravity, and good bio-mechanical leverage and spring action.

 You simply are Not understanding all the issues involved. 

 I thought I was being brilliant when making a curved layout.  Felt good on on a mock up drawing... but it didnt work well on a real control panel.


Quote
Also, straight line keyboards are not known to be comfortable, natural, or healthy.  Ever hear of an ergonomic keyboard?  Ever hear of carpal tunnel syndrome?

 Carpal Tunnel can be caused by ANY highly repetitive action.  A lot of it has to do with being too tense too often.  Your muscles need to have relaxation / rest times.  They need to be stretched and flexed.

 The Ergo boards are still rare compared to the standard keyboards... and it has little to do with costs.  Probably the most effective keyboards at stress reduction, are also the most difficult to learn to use.  Like the vertical splits.

 Theres nothing difficult with using my flat keyboard. I dont have CT. And anyone whos seen my marathon post would probably figure that I SHOULD have CT.

 Ohh, and another thing... I dont think Ive EVER seen a keyboard with convex buttons.

Quote
Besides, straight line keyboards are ergonomic nightmares meant to fit as many keys as possible into a useable space...

 They are a method to control.  Theres nothing else that will perform the job as effectively.
Even the so called ergo methods do not improve much upon the results.

 I remember as a kid, getting an Epyx single handed ergomonic joystick.  As nice as it was for its quality micros, and good stick, ...pressing the buttons rapidly on it was not good at all.  A simple non-ergo nintendo gamepad was far easier and better to use...




Quote
You're getting these problem because you're using poor concave buttons that don't move smoothly or actuate responsively.  This is why there are convex buttons, you shouldn't have to hold your hand a certain way to get the buttons to work properly.  Again, the control panel should conform to your hand, not the other way around.

 Ive already debated this.  Again, its not mechanically advantageous to press a button at an angle.

Quote
Daigo uses the curved layout.  Your fingers don't make a straight line whether they rested on the buttons or held in the air.

 In order to make your fingers go in a perfect downward pathway... then you have to adjust your fingers... and that adjustment, creates a straight line.  Try doing the sequential 4 finger tap... both with a straight line, and with a curved layout.

 And when you are talking fastest most accurate response.. you want a perfect downwards path.  Not a longer distance angled path, with a poorly leveraged finger.


 While anyone CAN learn to become great with limitations... they could actually play better, with better controller methods.

amendonz

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 503
  • Last login:December 02, 2017, 04:33:57 pm
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2012, 09:16:16 pm »
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

"Sorry to tell you this.. but Japanese arcades are not doing very well compared to the past.  Most of them survive merely because of high population density.  Meaning..  there are soooo many people in one small area, that its nearly impossible to fail" - my god, what a moron.

paigeoliver

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10994
  • Last login:March 08, 2020, 01:29:40 pm
  • Awesome face!
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2012, 01:28:17 am »
I get his idea and he is right, he just worded it poorly. America doesn't have the population density to support arcades anymore because there are very few places you can place one and have enough interested people within a reasonable distance. Japan's population density is literally ten times that of the United States. That means when you throw down a specialty shop or destination in Japan you will have ten times as many people close by.

So thus America has a problem keeping any arcades open anywhere because the 2 percent of the population interested in going just isn't enough with the low population density. Meanwhile in Japan that same 2 percent interest can literally translate to 10 times as many people because of the population density.

Japanese arcades are also on the decline. The big operators have closed several hundred locations in the past few years and all the manufacturers have sales that drop year after year. As of 2 years ago Japan had 4650 arcades (that is one arcade for every 27,408 people). To compare America had one arcade for every 9000 people in 1982. Japan's arcade industry has been in serious decline since the year 2000 and it shows no signs of any rebound.

http://stats-japan.com/t/kiji/12028
http://www.export-japan.com/jcu/sample/index.php?page=game-over-or-continue-what-will-become-of-the-japanese-video-arcade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_arcade_video_games

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

"Sorry to tell you this.. but Japanese arcades are not doing very well compared to the past.  Most of them survive merely because of high population density.  Meaning..  there are soooo many people in one small area, that its nearly impossible to fail" - my god, what a moron.
Acceptance of Zen philosophy is marred slightly by the nagging thought that if all things are interconnected, then all things must be in some way involved with Pauly Shore.

DCsegaDH

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 298
  • Last login:September 18, 2013, 04:14:10 pm
Re: Raising Awareness of Japanese Parts and Button Layouts
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2012, 03:06:20 am »
Its sad about the arcade industry, the concept just doesn't appeal to most people anymore. The newer games are expensive now too. I think the arcades are having a hard time now because the hardware and games cost way more than they are making in profit.