Avoiding a Frankenpanel...

[scofthe7seas]

Honestly, I don't believe he was serious about that panel. That thing is too ridiculous to exist.

show me a picture of it built and I will believe it.

[Hoopz]

Honestly, I don't believe he was serious about that panel. That thing is too ridiculous to exist.

show me a picture of it built and I will believe it.

This thread is crying for a crapmame link so here it is:

http://wickedretarded.com/~crapmame/30.html

It's probably the closest to the sketch that Lou posted which was tongue in cheek....

[Xiaou2]

That guys an even bigger Idiot than I thought:

"Also, if you look close, you'll see that the sideline controllers are not angled to the screen like usual 3rd & 4th player."

 I dont believe Any arcade machines angled their furthest sticks.   If you angled them, the player will get confused, and when they press up into the screen... will end up going diagonal.

 The only thing they even angle are the buttons.  The biggest problem is no additional distance between the monitor and the CP, to give player 3&4 a slightly better view.

  Its sad to see such ignorance.. and the guy really isnt funny.  He just an ignorant obsessed moron, and a pond scum punk.

[Donkbaca]

At least I'm funny

[leapinlew]

If you angled them, the player will get confused, and when they press up into the screen... will end up going diagonal.

I'm pretty sure that is my line. I build arcade cabinets to be enjoyed by me and any of my guests so I build them simple and easy to understand. As a result, I have multiple cabinets which play different game styles. You usually chime in about how it doesn't matter what the guests think and if they can't work a arcade control panel they must be some kind of morons.

Glad to see you coming around. Easy control schemes for guests is important. 

[Xiaou2]

I build arcade cabinets to be enjoyed by me and any of my guests so I build them simple and easy to understand. As a result, I have multiple cabinets which play different game styles.

 Good for you.  But, not everyone can be like you. Not everyone can dedicate a room of space to all the game types they love.  Not everyone wants to spend time swapping panels either.

You usually chime in about how it doesn't matter what the guests think and if they can't work a arcade control panel they must be some kind of morons.

 Uhh, No.  I pretty much said I could care less about what some internet punks care about, nor do I care if my friends care about what my panel looks like.

 Having a bunch of controls on a panel doesnt equate to unplayable or complex.  However, having a joystick put at an angle is unplayable, even to an experienced player.  Theres a mountain of difference.

 Your entitled to your opinions, but dont think your way is the best way nor the only way.

[(+_+)]

I concur with the angled joysticks. I found playing games with them to be very unintuitive, but that's just me... and perhaps others.

[(+_+)]

Just cause it has a tron stick doesn't mean it's a frankenpanel!!! 

If you can do it tastefully, it's not a frankenpanel. Check out this panel:


See what I mean? Tasteful is the key.

Will this control panel could hold all the controls you want, probably but moving it will be a b!+@#.  With the control panel attached, the cabinet can only go through very wide hallways and french doors, regular doors are out.  If you drive down the highway with the cab upright, you better have it strapped down or it will fly out of the truckbed.  The control panel will act like a giant wing.  I don't even want to guess at what would happen if a crosswind hit the cabinet going down the road.

On my Mame cabinet I only have 3 admin buttons.  One to enter/exit games, one to pause the game and one to reset the game (never used it).  Coins/tokens are handle by the coin door.

Little kids are going to have to jump or use a step ladder to reach the admin buttons.

[leapinlew]

Your entitled to your opinions, but dont think your way is the best way nor the only way.

I don't think my way is the only way, but I do think it's the best way. Isn't that what an opinion is all about?

Also, having a bunch of controls on a control panel = complex.

[Donkbaca]

Makes sense, if I didn't think my way was the best way, then I would do things a different way, in which case the different way would basically be the way I did it, which would sort of make it my way.  So, yeah, my way is definitely the best way

LLew FTW

[scofthe7seas]

Little kids are going to have to jump or use a step ladder to reach the admin buttons.

Little kids need to keep their damned grubby hands off of the admin buttons!

[drventure]

Angled sticks FTW!

 

[eds1275]

Re: p3 & p4 - on my cab there is going to be USB ports on the underside of the control panel. There will be xbox 360 wired controllers in the coin door. Being player 3 or 4 is a punishment - they shoulda called dibs or arrived earlier.

[Vigo]

You can angle joysticks as long as you angle the control panel as well. Much better than ending up staring at the back wall when playing.

[Xiaou2]

You can angle joysticks as long as you angle the control panel as well. Much better than ending up staring at the back wall when playing.

 You could, but you will still have players hitting the wrong direction, because even with your body facing the same direction as the sticks... 'up' will always be parallel to the monitor as far as a player is concerned.  Especially since theres no time to think about it.

 The proof is pretty much solidified in the Arcades.  Out of all the games ever made, I dont think there is more than one that has angled sticks. (is there even one?)

 (not counting game intentionally angled diagonally, like Qbert.  Im talking 4 player style)

 Some Idiot angled a Pedestal Tekken III machine with angled sticks and it totally messed me over, as well as many others.   Sure it matched the angles of the panel... but you dont Look at the panel when you play.  You look at the screen.
And theres no way to tell by feel which way is UP either.  Even if you made a braille type of carved CP system, it probably would still see mistakes / failures.

[CheffoJeffo]

As much as it pains me to be the one who says it (where is Paige when you need him?), Xiaou2 is correct.

[leapinlew]

Xiaou2 is correct.

Cheffo, if you don't have anything nice to say....

[Vigo]

You can angle joysticks as long as you angle the control panel as well. Much better than ending up staring at the back wall when playing.

 You could, but you will still have players hitting the wrong direction, because even with your body facing the same direction as the sticks... 'up' will always be parallel to the monitor as far as a player is concerned.  Especially since theres no time to think about it.

 The proof is pretty much solidified in the Arcades.  Out of all the games ever made, I dont think there is more than one that has angled sticks. (is there even one?)

 (not counting game intentionally angled diagonally, like Qbert.  Im talking 4 player style)

 Some Idiot angled a Pedestal Tekken III machine with angled sticks and it totally messed me over, as well as many others.   Sure it matched the angles of the panel... but you dont Look at the panel when you play.  You look at the screen.
And theres no way to tell by feel which way is UP either.  Even if you made a braille type of carved CP system, it probably would still see mistakes / failures.

It may just be a case that you may not be able to process the concept that the controls face you and not the screen, but that doesn't make it a blanket statement for everyone here. If you ever played any console game in your life, chances are you played them when not directly facing the screen. You may be the special guy who has to angle his joystick or gamepad to match the television angle, but that would be your special case.

The reason that this doesn't exist in the real arcade realm is because real estate is a major issue with any commercial game. Games were 4 players butted up shoulder to shoulder, with a width less than 35". Smaller screens, too. Players 3 and 4 are standing at a 90 degree angle to the screen, and forced to process joystick directions in collaboration with the screen.

I used to think that angling was a bad thing until I inadvertently made my 4 player control panel angled for each player, but kept the joysticks straight. Every time I had friends over, they would try to control the joysticks to their angle. I didn't quite get it at first, since my 4 player Trog had straight joysticks and that worked fine for everyone.

Case in point, if you have an x-arcade or some modular control panel for you PC, set it on your desk and then angle your monitor 45 degrees. Can you still play without angling your x-arcade 45 degrees as well?

[Donkbaca]

You know what, I am totally with X2 on this one.  You react and play in relation to the screen, not the CP, if you want to move up, you move the joy towards the screen

[Vigo]

You know, I have found it all depends on the setup though. I couldn't possibly play Trog if the joysticks were angles. On a wider angled control panel with more space, a larger screen that you are farther from, it works fine.

  It's just something I learned from stumbling into the situation where I had to angle my joysticks for friends that came over due to my specific setup.

[mytymaus007]

all the time wsted blogging about your cab you coud of just worked extra hours and bought a real cab for each game.

[scofthe7seas]

Aside from games that need two joysticks, I can't see how angled sticks can affect game play. Like Donkbaca said, people put the stick towards the screen.... which is how the sticks are typically angled. Imagine a four player cab with all four players lined up in a row. Absurd, I say! Not aesthetically pleasing either, some kind of giant block mothership looking CP. Unless you are playing an angled set, specifically at an angle to the actual controller (parallel to the screen instead of in the angled cp location, like playing player 3, while in a player one spot... which is stupid, and by association makes you stupid.) then the angle really shouldn't be a factor. People didn't seem to have a problem playing gauntlet legends. Or am I mistaken in what this conversation is about?
Now, two stick games like smash TV, yes. Way yes. Difficult with an angled stick for two players. Perhaps impossible for a guest to get a hang of it in limited time (and why would they if there are so many other games to play). A single person, or two (like a roommate, I won't say wife because I'll go out on a limb and state that no wives like smash TV) could get the hang of it, but not a guest.

[Vigo]

Sounds pretty spot on to me.

I won't say wife because I'll go out on a limb and state that no wives like smash TV

  

[RandyT]

Or am I mistaken in what this conversation is about?

I think you might be.  Folks are talking about angle in reference to the twisting of the joystick base about the center axis of the shaft.  Gauntlet Legends is a good example of how, even though the buttons are angled to the player, the stick is not.

+1 for keeping left and right parallel to the screen face.

[CheffoJeffo]

I'm actually kinda surprised that it has been such a long time since this topic has come up (as evidenced by my reference to Paige).

[scofthe7seas]

Or am I mistaken in what this conversation is about?

I think you might be.  Folks are talking about angle in reference to the twisting of the joystick base about the center axis of the shaft.  Gauntlet Legends is a good example of how, even though the buttons are angled to the player, the stick is not.

+1 for keeping left and right parallel to the screen face.

So are we saying.. player 3, off to the left, joystick and buttons angled to point at the screen, pressing up on the joystick - towards the screen, is bad or good. Because that's how my setup is. Basically like the standard slikstick (sorry for mentioning such blasphemy Randy ) 4p setup. I don't have a pic right now, but something like this
      ________
P3_
     /|
JS
   oo
\   oo
 \   oo
  \________
Nobody I know has a problem with this. Sorry for the crude drawing (you do better.   )

[scofthe7seas]

Let me also qualify my statement by saying that I am now having doubts as to how I set mine up. I don't play as player 3 as often as you'd think (it's my house, and my cab and ---fudgesicle--- you, you play over there). I do recall playing smash tv and it playing like garbage. I'll check at lunch time. If I'm wrong, well; sorry Vigo. I will have to bandwagon against you. I have no choice in the matter so as to save my dignity.

I will also have some sweet delicious hat / and or / crow to eat.

[Donkbaca]

dignity is overrated, always being right is better, if you are wrong, quietly change the subject

[Malenko]

dignity is overrated, always being right is better, if you are wrong, quietly change the subject

or put up huge walls of text and go off on wild tangents about how trampolines are like hotdogs.

[scofthe7seas]

dignity is overrated, always being right is better, if you are wrong, quietly change the subject

or put up huge walls of text and go off on wild tangents about how trampolines are like hotdogs.

Is that his tactic all along?

Incidentally, they are both fun in small spans of time, you probably only enjoy them once or twice a year, and they both have a solid opportunity to make you sick. Boosh.

[Vigo]

You know, the funny thing is that a year ago I would be agreeing with you all, as I have owned multiple 4 player cabs. I always considered angling a joystick to be pure blasphemy.

Then once I made a control panel that was wider and offset, the reverse felt natural to everyone. sorry about the crappy ms paint image, but for the setup I made, player 3 was how it was initially setup (look at the crappy arrow by the joystick), then I had to adjust to the way player 4 is set up because everybody got confused. It might have something to do with the TV being bigger and the control panel being more offset from the screen...  

[scofthe7seas]

Dude, what rom is that!?!? Cat vs.. one of the bases from Fantasy Zone? = awesome.

[Donkbaca]

Vigo... hands down Best Post EVER!!!


BTW, whatever happened to that instructable contest?

[Vigo]

Haha! Thanks!

My SNES was an instructables finalist, but not a winner....I got bumped off by a mario snuggie... 

[scofthe7seas]

I've checked, and I stand by my panel design! Hooray for functional memory!

[Xiaou2]

If you ever played any console game in your life, chances are you played them when not directly facing the screen.

 When you play a console game, you generally are using gamepads.  With a gamepad, you can feel which direction is which, because of the Dpad grooves / surfaces.
 
 A bat joystick can fact any direction, and the user has no way of telling which angles the thing is in, other than seeing the result on the screen after the fact.

 The majority of people will orient to the monitor and not the CP angle.  Which is exactly why the Arcades orient to the monitor, and not the CP.

 To reduce the space required, they angled the buttons, so that your body has to  angle to a narrower stance, and thus your elbows are not intruding on the other players space.

 See the original Gauntlet for example.   As well as pretty much any 3 to 4 player CP that existed in the Arcades.
 

[Vigo]

If you ever played any console game in your life, chances are you played them when not directly facing the screen.

 When you play a console game, you generally are using gamepads.  With a gamepad, you can feel which direction is which, because of the Dpad grooves / surfaces.
 

I guess I may have played more console gaming from ages earlier than you have, but I am used to joysticks just as much as controllers. Atari, commodore, nes advantage. made no difference in orientation to screen when using the joysticks, even when I used the arcade bat style joysticks.

The majority of people will orient to the monitor and not the CP angle.  Which is exactly why the Arcades orient to the monitor, and not the CP.

I agree that is true with a traditional arcade machine, but with home machines and pedestal machine expanding, I think players can disassociate themselves with the monitor more and connect to the controls more. That's my experience at least.  

To reduce the space required, they angled the buttons, so that your body has to  angle to a narrower stance, and thus your elbows are not intruding on the other players space.

 See the original Gauntlet for example.   As well as pretty much any 3 to 4 player CP that existed in the Arcades.
 

Haha, I have an original Gauntlet, granted it is in pieces right now. I know exactly how the controls exist on 4 player arcade games. I agree you can't angles the controls on a Gauntlet. My only point is that for home machines, angled joysticks can work as long as certain conditions are right. Conditions that were not found ever effective on commercial machines, so they were not used. Conditions like space for each player, a degree of separation from the screen, and a clear angled set of controls that the player knows can acknowledge the angle they are playing at.




Anyway, this is turning into a "Green Eggs and Ham" argument. Nobody I'm debating really has tried an effective use of angled controls, nor really wants to pursue trying it. That's fine by me. Unless somebody wants to submit this one to the Mythbusters, I would say that this debate won't get resolved. I think it really doesn't need much pursuit anymore.

[Hoopz]

OUTSTANDING!  Another thread turns into dork recess.   

[Donkbaca]

I think, hands down, a great frankenpanel design would be one where there are , 2 rotary sticks, tron stick, 4 spinners, 3 trackballs... and wait for it...4 players, 16 buttons per player!  That way, the player could have 8 buttons and decide whether or not they want to use their joystick with their left or right hand like the really old games....

Build that

FTW


o o o o           o o o o
              X
o o o o           o o o o

[TopJimmyCooks]

Sincere apologies to Rcub3, if you haven't already bugged out of this joint.