Avoiding a Frankenpanel...

[rcub3]

I'm close to getting my cab built.  Next comes the actual CP...which has been the most challenging part in terms of what to and not to include.

I'm trying to make this as versatile as possible, so these I WILL include:
4 controllers
1 spinner
1 trackball
1 'tron-like' controller

Something like


          /-------------\
         /    sp     tron   \
        /                       \
        \3                   4 /
         \ __1__TB__2__/

Now, I realize that that might be a lot.  So I'm looking for ways to trim the fat:
1. player 3 and 4 will only have 4 buttons
2. I'm thinking players 1 and 2 should only have 6 slightly offset pushbuttons, to allow for the 4 button setup for Neogeo games (see below), while allowing me to play the 6 button fighters:

  X  X  X
X  0  0

3. Thinking of not adding any extra buttons for the trackball.  Will likely have a bottom-mounted Utrak between player 1 and 2 (see my ASCII art above), which would then allow me to use their buttons.
4.  Last but not least, I could minimize admin buttons to Esc, pause, 1-4 player start with a shift button that would allow these 4 to become the coin buttons too.  etc..


Any other suggestions/thoughts?  Any other Admin buttons I SHOULD have?  I've seen some cabs with 8 buttons for player 1 and 2... what are all of those for?

thanks!

[leapinlew]

If you could align player 3 and 4, you could play smash TV and Total Carnage. If you made player 3 and 4 top fire joysticks, you could play some of the tank games out there.

So, the tron stick. You really really want that? Trons fun and all, but Tron uses a weird 8wayish style joystick, vertical monitor. I know you can play other games, like Satans Hollow, gorf, etc. I think a frankenpanel is unavoidable with the addition of the tronstick.

[Donkbaca]

If its got a tron stick, its a franken panel.

No need for 8 buttons, unless you are trying to play console games, which you shouldn't do with arcade controls.

There are no other admin buttons you should have.  

I would have separate coin and 1p buttons, I hate shift controls.

My thoughts on trying to minimize franken panel-ness:
Ignore the desire to play everything, and focus on having the ability to play what you want to play.  That being said, are you really a big enough Tron geek to pay 200 or so bucks to get the controls and have a weird looking CP just to play Tron.  If the answer is yes, then do it, if the answer is, well , I enjoy Tron occassionally, and would like to play it once in a while, then the answer is no.

Same with the trackball, there are only like 6 good trackball games: Golden Tee, Crystal Castles, Marble Madness, Missile Command, Centipede and some sort of bowling everybody talks about.  Do you really like these games enough to where you will play them often?  For me the answer was no. I got a trackball, fired up MAME, discovered that I couldn't really play any of these games for more than 5 minutes, so the trackball was axed.

Are you really going to have 4 people playing the cab enough to justify a 4p setup?  Once again, there are only a handful of games that are fun with 4p; the D&D games, Turtles, Captain Commando, Simpsons and Sunset Riders, and X-men are the only ones I can think of off hand.  I didn't build a 4p CP because I don't think I will ever have 4 people over that want to play the same 4p game.  Unless you have a couple of kids that you want to game with, I think 4p CPs are a waste.  They are huge, ugly and add to costs.

I am not shooting you down, hey if you LOVE Tron, go for the stick.  If you love marble madness, get a trackball, if you have 4 buddies who love Turtles, build a 4 player CP.  As a rule, if its on your CP, it should get regular use, if it doesn't, axe it.

[leapinlew]

Same with the trackball, there are only like 6 good trackball games: Golden Tee, Crystal Castles, Marble Madness, Missile Command, Centipede and some sort of bowling everybody talks about.  Do you really like these games enough to where you will play them often?  For me the answer was no. I got a trackball, fired up MAME, discovered that I couldn't really play any of these games for more than 5 minutes, so the trackball was axed.

Donkbaca - did you ever try shuffleshot? We played that one a bit. It was a lot of fun, but for the most part your right. These are high dollar controls and take some time to install and configure.

Are you really going to have 4 people playing the cab enough to justify a 4p setup?  Once again, there are only a handful of games that are fun with 4p; the D&D games, Turtles, Captain Commando, Simpsons and Sunset Riders, and X-men are the only ones I can think of off hand.

Agreed and to add on, one of the downsides of Mame is unlimited quarters. This had a big impact on how I played these games. There are 2 player versions of these games that allow you to select your player. Nearly all of them had a 2 player option.

[TopJimmyCooks]

You could make it expandable. 

[Malenko]

If its got a tron stick, its a franken panel.

FRANKENPANEL! lol

 Once again, there are only a handful of games that are fun with 4p; the D&D games, Turtles, Captain Commando, Simpsons and Sunset Riders, and X-men are the only ones I can think of off hand.  I didn't build a 4p CP because I don't think I will ever have 4 people over that want to play the same 4p game.  Unless you have a couple of kids that you want to game with, I think 4p CPs are a waste.  They are huge, ugly and add to costs.

For the most part, I agree with this. Though NBA Jam and NHL Open Ice are both fantastic 4 player with friends too. Im actually making a swappable 4player NBA Jam panel to go on my MAMED KI1 cab, nothing fancy, just a 4 player factory NBA Jam panel, for when I have 4 players around ( for Open Ice)

But I dont think Id want my MAME cab full time 4 players with just me sitting there playing Galaga, alone, in the dark.

[rcub3]

You could make it expandable. 

I couldn't agree more that the Tron stick makes it a Franken.    That's exactly why I was trying to find ways to compensate, mainly by minimizing buttons on the panel.  

4 player vs 2 player:  I realize that most games will be 1-2 player, but man those 4 player games are just fun.  

I may have to go with a separate CP just for the trackball + pushbuttons (maybe 3?) and tron/spinner (yes, unfortunately I'm that big of a DoT fan....even paid extra for the push/pull spinner).  I would have to figure out how to get the wiring right to make it easily swappable.  

[alfonzotan]

I say embrace the Frankenpanel.  Look at it this way:  I personally would not (and did not) bother with controls for Players 3 and 4, because I'm not terribly interested in 4-player games.  But that's me; obviously you value that option, so why shouldn't you include them?

Panel design, in my mind, comes down to what you want to play, and how to do that comfortably.  If you want to play games that need a Tron/flightstick, by Crom, include one (I did).  If you're dedicated to fighting games or maze games or whatever and don't need a trigger stick, leave it out.  

In my mind, the ability to play damn-near everything is what makes MAME and DIY arcading so much fun in the first place, so don't be put off by 'control panel snobs.'  Build for what you want to play, period.  If what you want to play is limited to a joystick and three buttons, great for you.  If not, build the rest; the controls you're most likely to regret are going to be the ones you don't have.

Your layout looks perfectly reasonable to me.

[rcub3]

If you could align player 3 and 4, you could play smash TV and Total Carnage. If you made player 3 and 4 top fire joysticks, you could play some of the tank games out there.

Woa... I didn't know that for games like Smash TV you needed 1-2 adjacent and 3-4 adjacent to each other.  Would you then have to play Robotron off to the side (using 1+2)?  I thought this could all be mapped in MAMEUI or something per game.  It seems that all the researching doesn't end with completing the building of the cab.   

Thanks alfonzotan.  I do want to include everything, but maybe having a second CP for the extras (TB, tron stick, spinner) is not a bad idea, except for the extra woodworking.  I still have more stuff to figure out like speaker arrangement, monitor-selection, etc before I get to the CP. 

EDIT:  I've even considered using minimalistic art for the CP to avoid the adding to the frankenness.

[Donkbaca]

edit: If its got a Tron stick, and any other joystick, its a franken panel.

Malenko is in a bust the Donks balls kind of mood today...

I am very, VERY anti-FP, but my reasoning for it is that people put a ton of crap on their panels that never gets used and just confuses guests.  That's why I say, if you enjoy and use it, add it, but don't add for the sake of adding.

If you like Tron that much, why not do a dedicated Tron Bartop?  The tron sticks just always look funky, uncomfortable and in the way.

4 player games are fun, that's why I have 4 wii controllers and 4 xbox controllers.  But how often have I played 4 player games on those systems?  Very few.  I agree 4p NBA Jam and NHL are very fun 4p, but if you read around here I think there are more people in the "I built a 4p and wish I had built a 2P" panel than the "I built a 2p and wish I had built a 4p" panel

As for the trackball, nope, don't like shuffleshot enough to put a trackball on my cab. THough, I do have one of those plug in x-arcade trackball controllers, so if a guest REALLY wants to play golden tee or something, I can pull it out and set it on my CP, there is enough room between P1 and P2 to have it sit there.  Don't use it much though, and if I had to do it all over, I wouldn't have bought one

[alfonzotan]

If you could align player 3 and 4, you could play smash TV and Total Carnage. If you made player 3 and 4 top fire joysticks, you could play some of the tank games out there.

Woa... I didn't know that for games like Smash TV you needed 1-2 adjacent and 3-4 adjacent to each other.  Would you then have to play Robotron off to the side (using 1+2)?  I thought this could all be mapped in MAMEUI or something per game.  It seems that all the researching doesn't end with completing the building of the cab.   

Thanks alfonzotan.  I do want to include everything, but maybe having a second CP for the extras (TB, tron stick, spinner) is not a bad idea, except for the extra woodworking.  I still have more stuff to figure out like speaker arrangement, monitor-selection, etc before I get to the CP. 

EDIT:  I've even considered using minimalistic art for the CP to avoid the adding to the frankenness.

No prob.  Here's a link to a couple of shots of my (F)CP... only regret I have is that there's just no good way to include a Star Wars yoke without building a rotating or interchangeable panel.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=59359.msg1103736#msg1103736

[Firebat138]

Trackball...YES!!!   Spinner...  I didn't and wish I had...  Tron Flight Yoke....  Again...  I did not and wish I had every time I want to play Tron, which is rare, but it is still cool....  But again...  I rarely want to play....

I always tell people that want me to build them one.... Think of how many times you had four friends over that wanted to play the arcade at the same time and then think of what game it was...

I agree with alfonz.... do it for you... no one else...

[Malenko]

edit: If its got a Tron stick, and any other joystick, its a franken panel.

Malenko is in a bust the Donks balls kind of mood today...

Just razzin ya, Mr. Contra and Tetris arent classics =)

Just make sure you wrap your 4 player panel in black marble contact paper

[VanillaGorilla]

Just make sure you wrap your 4 player panel in black marble contact paper

DONT FORGET TO ADD LOTS OF BLUE LIGHTNING GRAPHICS EVERYWHERE!! NOT TO MENTION CUPHOLDERS!

[Firebat138]

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

 

edit: If its got a Tron stick, and any other joystick, its a franken panel.

Malenko is in a bust the Donks balls kind of mood today...

Just razzin ya, Mr. Contra and Tetris arent classics =)

Just make sure you wrap your 4 player panel in black marble contact paper

[nitz]

If its got a tron stick, its a franken panel.

No need for 8 buttons, unless you are trying to play console games, which you shouldn't do with arcade controls.

There are no other admin buttons you should have.  

I would have separate coin and 1p buttons, I hate shift controls.

My thoughts on trying to minimize franken panel-ness:
Ignore the desire to play everything, and focus on having the ability to play what you want to play.  That being said, are you really a big enough Tron geek to pay 200 or so bucks to get the controls and have a weird looking CP just to play Tron.  If the answer is yes, then do it, if the answer is, well , I enjoy Tron occassionally, and would like to play it once in a while, then the answer is no.

Same with the trackball, there are only like 6 good trackball games: Golden Tee, Crystal Castles, Marble Madness, Missile Command, Centipede and some sort of bowling everybody talks about.  Do you really like these games enough to where you will play them often?  For me the answer was no. I got a trackball, fired up MAME, discovered that I couldn't really play any of these games for more than 5 minutes, so the trackball was axed.

Are you really going to have 4 people playing the cab enough to justify a 4p setup?  Once again, there are only a handful of games that are fun with 4p; the D&D games, Turtles, Captain Commando, Simpsons and Sunset Riders, and X-men are the only ones I can think of off hand.  I didn't build a 4p CP because I don't think I will ever have 4 people over that want to play the same 4p game.  Unless you have a couple of kids that you want to game with, I think 4p CPs are a waste.  They are huge, ugly and add to costs.

I am not shooting you down, hey if you LOVE Tron, go for the stick.  If you love marble madness, get a trackball, if you have 4 buddies who love Turtles, build a 4 player CP.  As a rule, if its on your CP, it should get regular use, if it doesn't, axe it.

I pretty much agree with all of this. I'll throw in my 2 cents based on an eye-opening experience I had recently.

I'm mostly a vertical classics fan, but had planned on doing a rotating monitor because I also like a lot of fighters and beat'em ups. I clumsily broke one of the switches on my 4-way stick when installing my CP. No big deal as I was going to replace that stick anyway, but it did mean no vertical games for awhile since most of the ones I play need the 4-way. So I just put the monitor in horizontally for now and played for a few days. Guess what. I found I'm not all that crazy about playing the horizontal games all the time. Once I play through a beat'em up, I don't really want to play through it again for probably at least a year, and fighters get old fast for me vs. the cpu because once I get to the 4th or 5th match the cpu just cheats until I give up. So I'm just gonna mount vertically as I was having a ---smurfette--- of a time getting the rotating to work the way I wanted anyway, and it's hard to get a rotating monitor to look nice with a bezel. I'm gonna leave myself the option of disassembling things a bit and mounting horizontally on ocassion, but that probably won't be often. I can live with the horizontal games at a small size most of the time.

Here's my point: It sounds cool to be able to play everything, but you may not like it as much as you think. The idea is sometimes cooler than the reality. It's kinda like how we all want 5000 songs on our ipods, but how many of us really listen to more than 40-50 of them on a regular basis?

My advice: Play these games for awhile with your keyboard or a gamepad and then decide if you still think you'll want to play them enough to justify the extra controls. It sounds like you're a big Tron fan (but if by chance you haven't played in awhile, I would play it for a bit and decide if you really need that Tron stick), but you may want to play some trackball games for awhile and decide if you really need that.

As for the 4 player thing, if you have kids, I'd say go for it. Kids can likely have fun playing the same beat'em ups over and over, and there might be some fun multi-player console games they'd play too. But if it's so you and your friends can play through Turtles, etc. just think about it a bit. Are your friends really into those games as much as you are? Maybe they are, but if not, you and your buddies are probably gonna play through a 4 player game a grand total of once, MAYBE twice if you're lucky. Having said that, if they're really into the 4 player sports games, it could still be worth it because these games are more fun to play repeadetly than a beat'em up.

If you still think you need all the extras, then you should go for it and don't let anyone here talk you out of it! But a swappable panel may be the way to go then if you don't mind the extra work and having to switch panels sometimes.

[Xiaou2]

1. player 3 and 4 will only have 4 buttons

Good, cause I dont think there are many 4player games with more then 4buttons.

2. I'm thinking players 1 and 2 should only have 6 slightly offset pushbuttons,

I dont think this is a good option, IMOP.  Ive tried alternate button layouts such as
the so called Ergo "curved' layouts.  In play, I ended up mashing the side edges of
buttons instead of the center.. which resulted in extreme annoyance.  Try a test
panel and play against someone whos excellent at a 6button fighter for an hour, and
see if you have issues or not... before committing to that to a full CP.

3. Thinking of not adding any extra buttons for the trackball.

Good. But just remember, that you should leave at minimal, about 1ft diameter circle
around the ball.  Buttons are ok, but if you put a joystick too close, players will often
smash their hands into it when rolling the ball furiously in gameplay.  This usually
means offsetting the player 1 & 2s symmetry on the CP. It may not look as nice
visually, but you will be far better off playability wise.

4.  Last but not least, I could minimize admin buttons to Esc, pause, 1-4
player start with a shift button that would allow these 4 to become the coin buttons
too.  etc..

Admin buttons are a convenience. But they do add cost, and may not look as nice.
Its really up to you. They usually are at the very top of the cp, so they dont really get
in the way.  You could do something like a pop-up panel, or slide out keyboard.

Any other suggestions/thoughts?

Dont put the other controls too deep into the panel.  If you do, it makes it a strain to
use them for long periods of time.  Also, when possible, try not to make a players
arms rest on top of other controls.  Think about arm angles and placements.

Example: You can nearly put 2 joysticks on top of each other, with just a slight
diagonal, and thats far better than to put the 2nd joystick/controller deep into the
CP, where a player has to rest his arms on a set of buttons just to use it. (along with
stretching uncomfortably)

This:
**************************
*                                                *
*    (o)                                       *
*        (o)   ooo                          *
*                                                *
**************************

Not this:
**************************
*                (o)                           *
*                                                *
*        (o)   ooo                          *
*                                                *
**************************

 Finally, theres very little space saved from angling player 3&4s edges.  Its usually
better just to align the sticks so they can be used for something like smash tv.
 However, if you stick with the angles, at least made sure that All sticks are mounted
the same way.  Dont angle the actual stick itself, as it will just confuse players when
they are playing.  IE: They press up towards the screen, and end up walking a
diagonal instead.

************
*                     *
*    (o)            *
*                     *
*         oo        *
*                     *
************

 Heres another thing you can do:  Place buttons lower on the cp for the 3&4 player
setups. This can make them a little closer, saving some space.  Mostly because the
players elbows will be closer to his body, due to the angles his arms rest at. Wide
elbows leave little room for the other players.

[bkenobi]

If p1 and p2 sticks are analog (U360's for instance), you can map their output to whatever you want.  Meaning, if you want to play a tank game with p1+p3, you could align p1 diagonally so it plays (and feels) correct for that orientation.  If you then want to play something with p1+p2, you could use a different angle and it would still feel and work correctly.  Of course, you will pay a lot extra for that stick, but you can get rid of the Tron..err, Frankenstick.   

[SammyWI]

Donk: Awesome post.  Hall of fame worthy.

I'm planning on making a two player CP using wireless gamepads for the occasional 3 and 4 player games.  CP will have trackball and spinner. 

I'm thinking of modifying a wireless PC flightstick to use as a removable Tron / analog stick.  The wireless stick I have has a base that has three contact points on the base.  I want to add some small extensions to each contact point so that it will sit on the CP, over the top of the P2 buttons.  Then add some magnets to each contact point and place some pieces of steel under the CP, where I want the stick to mount.  If I use rare earth magnets and countersink the steel pieces from underneath the CP, I think the stick could be very secure yet easily removable.

As always: do what you want on your CP.   

[drventure]

Der Frankenpanel. Das Gud!

 

[rcub3]

LOL. WTF... I step away for a few hours, and this is what happens??   

Thanks to everyone who actually posted some useful info (like the combo of U360's and a regular stick on 3 and 4, etc).   

 

[pinballwizard79]

Respect the frankenpanel & tame the admin buttons

[Malenko]

donk, I might bust your balls but at least Im not a Xiaou2 about it.


Op, you should do what makes you happy. We are all just giving you feedback based on our experiences, but everyones preference is going to differ. Sift though whats posted that applies to you and go from there. Personally speaking, Im not fond of the frankenpanel because while its great to be able to play every game under the sun, the odds are you probably wont.

Look at it this way, if you build it and you dont like it, you get to take the experience and make it even better the next time.

[Donkbaca]

Everyone needs to get their balls busted once in a while. I like Malenko, the man knows his stuff (except for r-type and life force)

The facts are it will be a frankenstein panel. Embrace it or do something different.

[Xiaou2]

Of course, you will pay a lot extra for that stick, but you can get rid of the Tron..err, Frankenstick

 If he wants to play Tron or Discs of Tron, he will have a hard time using a u360, considering that theres no buttons on a U360.  Which would mean need for 3 hands, or a set of foot switches.

 Furthermore, the u360 is an expensive and lackluster option.  Its not a very good analog controller due to limited swing (and no buttons).. and its got too much swing for a typical joystick, making it nearly unplayable unless you mount restrictor plates on it. (which reduces the analog resolution to an even worse state)

 And if you want to play a 4way game... theres no physical restriction, so you either have to have a 4way restrictor plate..  or you will have troubles playing these games the same way they play with a real 4way stick.  If you do mount the 4way plate, either you have to use the ugly top mount changer, or, have to stick to a certain plate.

 
 Finally, you may wish to consider adding at least one Leafswitch button for 1&2 player.  They will allow you to fire much faster and easier on many of the classics,
with less hand fatigue.

[Xiaou2]

One more thing...

 A Tron stick might look out of place on a typical panel, merely because its not considered as part of the theme.

 For example, a Glowing tron stick works just fine on a Tron control panel, because the artwork is based on it being there.  Use of blacklight and UV painted lines... so match the glow of the stick.

 If we had a MFG that sold several colors of clear-translucent UV reactive buttons, spinner knobs..etc... then you could easily make an amazing panel in which the stick looks perfect for the panel.

 If your stick is only a black handle version, you might be able to paint it with like colors and or pinstripe it to match the artwork.  Even if for example, your Happs were comps with blue bat handles.. you could possibly find paint to match that color, and paint the stick to match the happ bats.  Clearcoat would probably be needed as well, to protect the paint.

 Point being, its mostly poor Artwork, controller color mismatching, and similar related things that really makes a panel look like an old movie prop.  It has far less to do with the number of controls.

 Then again, not everyone cares about Artwork and their panels 'looking' pretty.  They would just rather be able to play more of the games as accurately as possible.  As you can see, most of the people who strongly suggest simple layouts,
are those who dont play non-generic controller games.

[Nephasth]

If your stick is only a black handle version, you might be able to paint it with like colors and or pinstripe it to match the artwork.

ONLY a black handle version!?! No love for GORF...

[RandyT]

I just wanted to bring a little support for the offset (ergonomic?) button pattern.  If you are a big fighter enthusiast, it may tick you off.  But if not, and you play other emulators, you can get a lot closer to the feel of a diamond pattern with your buttons when they are offset.

Do what is right for you.  Doing otherwise is like buying your friend's favorite beer, instead of yours, because you know he'll bum one when he comes over.  It might be a nice thing to do, but it means that you get to drink nasty beer whether he's there or not .

[CheffoJeffo]

Do what is right for you.  Doing otherwise is like buying your friend's favorite beer, instead of yours, because you know he'll bum one when he comes over.  It might be a nice thing to do, but it means that you get to drink nasty beer whether he's there or not .

QFT

 

[HanoiBoi]

The guy Specifically says he Loves Tron.  Yet you try to talk him out of liking Tron, because YOU dont like the look of a Tron stick on HIS panel.  Is that not Insanity?

 If it isnt, then I dont know what is.

I don't always agree with Xiaou2, but when I do....I have to post.

What's confusing about this thread, and perhaps missed by many, is the title; 'Avoiding a Frankenpanel...'.  That could be almost impossible when you want to add everything.

[Malenko]

ONLY a black handle version!?! No love for GORF...

Ok, I dont know how to say that in my head. Spewing firey hatred with the word "only", but just say "gorf" really loudly? Then sob like a 12 yr old school girl with a skinned knee? Just kiddin, Xiaou2 has never let the facts slow him down, why should he start now?

Do what is right for you.  Doing otherwise is like buying your friend's favorite beer, instead of yours, because you know he'll bum one when he comes over.  It might be a nice thing to do, but it means that you get to drink nasty beer whether he's there or not .

Also, insanity is staying true to the code.

+2

Hey OP, where is the link to your build thread?

[matsadona]

The only thing that might motivate a 4 player panel is Gauntlet (imho) or maybe a 3 player for Rampage

With that said I am also a bit allergic to frankenpanels... "multi" something is always a compromise giving a less good result with a machine/tool/game able to do several things, but not being good in any. Separate/dedicated solutions is of course often better from many perspectives. And not to forget ergonomic and the esthetic part. There are a few quality builds with multiple controllers, but honestly, most of them just looks silly or worse...
But in the end, beauty is in the eye of the beholder isn't it?

The best thing is of course to have dedicated cabinets for each type of game.
If you can't do that (it is more expensive and consumes a lot of space) why not try with changeable panels?
With this considered in the design phase it can be very convenient with quick connections for easy replacement etc. That isn't much more expensive, if you keep all the interfaces etc inside the cabinet. Just some more metal or wood.

There are so many things I would have done different today, if I will ever build a new MAME cabinet. Probably I would make two - one with horizontal and one with vertical monitor. And then build a couple different control panels that could be swapped between the two cabinets.

[Donkbaca]

^^^ said perfectly.

The OP. A few extra admin buttons does not a frankenpanel make.

My main point about MAME is that a can is all about compromise, you can't have it all, you either sacrifice the playability of a few games for the sake of aesthetics and ergonomics, or you try to play everything and have a unwieldy bulky ugly cab.

The decision is for you to make, just realize it's one or the other

[Hoopz]

Do a mock up in cardboard and see how it feels.  Nothing compares to actually trying it out.  If you have children, that adds another mix into game play.

I'll also throw out there that Super Mario War is perfect on a cabinet and is a blast with 4 players.

[Bootay]

The only thing that might motivate a 4 player panel is Gauntlet (imho) or maybe a 3 player for Rampage

With that said I am also a bit allergic to frankenpanels... "multi" something is always a compromise giving a less good result with a machine/tool/game able to do several things, but not being good in any. Separate/dedicated solutions is of course often better from many perspectives. And not to forget ergonomic and the esthetic part. There are a few quality builds with multiple controllers, but honestly, most of them just looks silly or worse...
But in the end, beauty is in the eye of the beholder isn't it?

The best thing is of course to have dedicated cabinets for each type of game.
If you can't do that (it is more expensive and consumes a lot of space) why not try with changeable panels?
With this considered in the design phase it can be very convenient with quick connections for easy replacement etc. That isn't much more expensive, if you keep all the interfaces etc inside the cabinet. Just some more metal or wood.

There are so many things I would have done different today, if I will ever build a new MAME cabinet. Probably I would make two - one with horizontal and one with vertical monitor. And then build a couple different control panels that could be swapped between the two cabinets.

I have a couple dedicated cabs but eventually want to build a Mame cab. When I do, I am going the switchable control panel route since there were a lot of different games that used similar control panels i was going to build a few different control panels for the types of games I will be playing. I also have thought about going modular. Not sure how I will handle it, but it is something to consider if you want to avoid a frankenpanel. I personally hate frankenpanels.

[Xiaou2]

ONLY a black handle version!?! No love for GORF... Cry

 I dont know what your talking about, considering every Gorf Ive ever seen Has a black handle stick.  Additionally, I believe the originals are OPTICAL, thus not easy for anyone to convert.

 The only other color Handle Ive seen, besides the discussed blue tron stick, is Red, for Satans Hollow.

 And yes, I do Luv Gorf, but no, Im not going to marry him.

But if not, and you play other emulators, you can get a lot closer to the feel of a diamond pattern with your buttons when they are offset.

 While I like that your opinion is not a forceful one, such as been seen by the beat-down crew here..  I have to disagree a bit with this point.  While gamepads on consoles have a staggered arrangement, its mainly because the thumb can more easily slide from one to the other, as well as hold nearly any two buttons down with the single thumb.

 When it comes to arcade buttons, its a different story.  You dont use your thumb, and even if you used a single finger, you wouldnt use it like a gamepad... so the layout makes no real sense, and give no real advantage.  In fact, because you would use them as arcade buttons, you will more than likely end up hitting the edges of buttons on accident, even in console emulated games.

 Sega started out with a 3 button layout, which still allowed 2 buttons to be pressed with one thumb.  When fighters came out, even they went with a traditional arcade 6button layout.   Nintendo started out with the 4 button layout, and just decided to let users suffer with having to adjust to the top shoulder buttons for the high power attacks.  It worked ok, but not as good as the traditional layout.

(and hey, how are we going to emulate the shoulder buttons?  heh, j/k)

 Neo Geo arcade?  I have no idea why they chose to alter the position of the 1st button.  I think it was merely for looks.

 Btw, look at your keyboard. Even your keys are not a perfectly centered stagger. Most of the key is directly above the key your finger is resting on.  The key are also fairly flat, (unlike a traditional concave button) so even if you hit them on the edge, it doesnt feel bad.  Not so with a Happ concave button.

but when I do....I have to post.

Thanks HanoiBoi.    

 Its almost like a guy getting a gift for his friend, but instead of really getting something his friend would want...  the guy gets something HE really wants instead, figuring that his friend will like it anyway.

 People here get way too wrapped up in their own opinions and viewpoints, egos, etc.. and completely ignore what the other person is asking for / desires.  And then gets all offended when the advice isnt taken or accepted.

 While they put the obligatory 'if your wants' in there... its kind of a joke, considering the 1hr long sales pitch, then the 2 second 'but if you Really Really REALLY want to.. do whatever you want.  (But make sure you REALLY think about it, cause your wrong if you do it your way)'.

it can be very convenient with quick connections for easy replacement etc.

 Its not exactly very quick, not convenient to have to swap a panel. Not only do you have to find a place to store the beast, but then its going to take 5 minutes to bring out, swap over, and set the other panel away.  Its major buzzkill, similar to the original Laser Discs which had to be flipped over mid-way into the movie.

 Its a decent option, but its not for everyone, and its not always the best option.

one with horizontal and one with vertical monitor.

Or you could make a rotating monitor... ?  Or use a larger monitor that looks fine in either orientation ?

The decision is for you to make, just realize it's one or the other

See what I mean?  Its the typical black and white statement.  Why cant there be shades in-between?  In their world, its one or the other.  There exist no middle-ground.

I also have thought about going modular

Modulars often look worse than many other options. Theres parts lying all over the place, and the CP has lines running through it. Theres almost no way to make artwork for them that works well.  Changing the panels around is even more of a pain in the butt than an entire separate control panel.  They are much more a pain to build, and, expensive parts can be lost, broken more easily, and more easily stolen.

[rcub3]

Too many things to copy/paste/quote to reply to... Great!  Thanks for all the feedback

Re: Build Thread
I'll try to start one over the weekend.  Seeing the response here, it sounds like a good idea to get some feedback, ideas, etc before starting to make cuts, etc.

Re: multiple cabs vs multiple CP's
Yes, storing a second CP would be a pain, but building a whole new cab will ttake more time and even more space.  I'm leaning towards 2 Cp's at the moment... Aesthetics are definitively important.  Time is at a premium for me.  I'm in my 30's with a busy career and a 9mo old daughter (my first).  Maybe once I actually have a working cab to get my fix, I  may reconsider building another cab. 

Re: rotating monitor...
Yeah, I think I'm just going with a large CRT/arcade monitor to again maximize playability. 

Re: offsetting the 6 buttons
Imight not do it just for the "NeoGeo feel".  I may just leave them Street fighter style.  I do enjoy fighters quite a bit. 

[TopJimmyCooks]

and the CP has lines running through it.

True.

Theres almost no way to make artwork for them that works well. 

False.  I'm working on a mad magazine type fold up deal for my modular that is going to blow minds.   

They are much more a pain to build, and, expensive parts can be lost, broken more easily, and more easily stolen.

If building causes someone pain, why come here?  I look for the challenges as part of the hobby.  In all fairness, I can build whatever I feel like, but I can't get past the first level of Donkey Kong.  Protecting your parts is part of the design and part of the challenge.  And, theft is not such a big problem inside most people's houses.  Certainly not mine.    

A well considered modular panel is a wonderful thing and keeps the bolts off the neck.

[Vigo]

Everyone needs to get their balls busted once in a while. I like Malenko, the man knows his stuff (except for r-type and life force)

its just so funny that I agree with DoDonBaka so much but hes so hostile, its hilarious

  I love how Donkbaca and Malenko have been some kind of lovers quarrel and then go through the makeup phase. What a cute couple...do I smell a BYOAC wedding coming up?   

[Donkbaca]

Modulars often look worse than many other options. Theres parts lying all over the place, and the CP has lines running through it. Theres almost no way to make artwork for them that works well.  Changing the panels around is even more of a pain in the butt than an entire separate control panel.  They are much more a pain to build, and, expensive parts can be lost, broken more easily, and more easily stolen

.

I agree with a lot of this... except for this part:

and more easily stolen

 WTF?  

I think swappable CPs is a better solution than modular, but the problem with that is that a 4p CP is so big, you will have a lot of wasted space if you swap in a 2p CP, plus there is the hassle of storing the non-used CPs.

If you do go this route, I suggest you make one CP black, and one white.  In my oppressive world, there is no room for gray CPs

I too am a busy 30ish person, got a 22 month old and another on the way so I feel you  Aesthetics are probably important for the Wife Acceptance Factor.  That's why I ended up going with a slim build.

Good luck on the build.  Realize it will probably take you 3 times as long as you expected.  THere are so many cool things on here, it almost makes me want to build ten cabs!  Keep us posted.  

The biggest issue I have had was trying to stick to a plan.  My original idea was a simple cab with a 30 inch TV and transplanted x-arcade controls.  Now I am almost done with my cab, its completely different, its a slim, with a 21.5 inch LCD.  Browsed on here, decided to add lit buttons, lit sticks....I have my own franken-machine, not because I have so many controls, but because I am incorporating an x-box 360 into the build.

Good luck!

[Bootay]

TopJimmy: Yep. I haven't actually decided whether to go with swappable or modular, but I personally prefer those options over a big honking frankenpanel.

Xiaou2: I see your points on both swappable and modular. For me swappable wouldn't be a big deal because I will probably load a game up and leave it running that game a while. Then when bored with it, switch it. I am not one to play a game for 15 mins then switch. So I don't care about the alleged 5 minute hookup. Modulars can look alright if done right, and since I won't always have the same game running I could care less about the artwork. Plus if done right you could put good artwork and have it flow right. I personally don't know how I will approach it when the time comes.

Vigo: LOL

[RandyT]

While I like that your opinion is not a forceful one, such as been seen by the beat-down crew here..  I have to disagree a bit with this point.  While gamepads on consoles have a staggered arrangement, its mainly because the thumb can more easily slide from one to the other, as well as hold nearly any two buttons down with the single thumb.

You can disagree.  The point is that, unless the buttons are labeled, making the mental association as to which button on the panel is associated to which button on a gamepad is easier with the offset config.  It has been for me, and that is why I am lending my support to his consideration in doing so.  It doesn't have anything to do with why they did it that way on a gamepad.

[VanillaGorilla]

Control panels are for weenies.

Go hard mode:


OHHHH YEEEEEEEEEAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!

[Nephasth]

That is one sweet ass sweater!

[Donkbaca]

that's a franken sweater

[VanillaGorilla]

that's a franken sweater

Thats a winner!

(Actually kinda looks like a Frogger sweater...)

[RandyT]

I want a rainbow-ribbon-cable-ponytail!

[MajorHavoc]

I would have to put myself in Alfonzotan's corner.  I am beginning cut lumber for a 4 player cab based on the Dynamo Showcase Cabinet.  Having a Tron stick was a must.  Then,  I fell into a sweet deal on another heavy duty 8 way flight stick. So.....I'm incorporating it into the mix as well.  Battlezone and Vindicators should play nicely with a matched set of sticks and it balances the panel out.  Yikes....I have fallen into the Frankenpanel Zone!   

[scofthe7seas]

That is one sweet ass sweater!

What's messed up, is if that guy is a quadriplegic (which that sort of interface is designed for) then somebody put that ugly ass sweater on him. So cruel.

Although he probably isn't. He's sitting up pretty straight. >_>

[Vigo]

That is one sweet ass sweater!

What's messed up, is if that guy is a paraplegic (which that sort of interface is designed for) then somebody put that ugly ass sweater on him. So cruel.

Come on, it was a gift from Bill Cosby. 

[scofthe7seas]

Come on, it was a gift from Bill Cosby. 

Haha Did you really change your avatar to snacks'n jackson??

Anyway, everybody knows the Cos' don't give out his sweaters.

[rcub3]

Now i'm curious... I haven't seen examples of modular cabs.  Any good links/pics?

[TopJimmyCooks]

http://www.beersmith.com/mame/

http://1uparcade.rmfx.com/arcade-const-panels.html

my meager effort:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=111163.0

more in a few minutes  . . . .

[TopJimmyCooks]

More HOF quality alternatives to the neck bolts:
http://arcade.tomvanhorn.com/
http://rototron.info/default.aspx
http://home.comcast.net/~bsturk/mame/controls.html

That last one, sturcade, is especially well executed.  You're going to see more if you search here but these are ones that are by guys that are not currently posting on this board. 

If you go modular, or like mine, semi modular, def. post up any questions, I've done a ton of research and I love to put my opinion out there

[rcub3]

Thanks

[mgb]

When building a panel, it comes down to what is most important to you. You can put every single control on their and have a frankenpanel. some guys like that and its cool because at the end of the day, its theirs and they are the ones using it. Others, myself included don't want a cluttered panel so we look at what we can do without and compromise.
If you don't want a frankenpanel, don't build a frankenpanel. leave out some stuff. if you can't leave anything out, you may very well just have to build a frankenpanel.
Good luck

[Paul Olson]

I think the easy way to make sure you have everything you want is just advance preparation. If you think you might want swappable or modular, design your cab with that in mind. To make a swappable cp cab, just make the cp easily removable and add connectors to the wiring harness so it is easy to unplug the entire cp. There is no need to make more than one cp if you are not sure you really want it.

If you want to try modular after that, make one of the swappable CPs so it accepts modular panels. I made my modular panel the same dimensions as the cp on my 4 player konami cab. 3 bolts and the panel is off.

Keep in mind that you don't have to do something just because you can. I have a lot of panels for my cp, but most of the time it is either set up in a fighter layout (mostly for testing and configuring), or a 4-way with 2 buttons.

If I want to play Tron, then it is worth the minute or two to swap the panels. If that seems to be too much work, I will just play whatever works with the panels that are on there.

Having the option to swap those panels is why I enjoy my cab so much.

There is an old, hopelessly outdated thread about my cp linked to the left under my info. I actually like the black panels because they make a good base to show off the controls, so I have never tried to come up with a way to do artwork on them.

My modular panel got expensive really quick because I went crazy buying controls. It doesn't have to be expensive though. The basic build isn't much more than a regular cp; it just takes a bit more work. I have a closet dedicated to storing the panels, but the space is worth it to me.

I just looked at that thread, and it has been almost 4 years since I built the CP! Wow, time flies. I wouldn't worry about the easier to damage concern too much. I have only damaged 2 panels in all of this time by dropping them. They are still usable, but there is an ugly dent on both of them from the MDF hitting the floor. Someday I will mount those 2 controls on new panels, but not a huge priority.

If you do go swappable or modular, try not to go crazy buying controls. Buy them when you decide you need them. I still have enough controls out in the garage to make about 50 more panels, and I never seem to have time to do it. A little bit of a waste there, but someday I will be able to play VS Karate Champ with the original joysticks.

[HanoiBoi]

If you don't want a frankenpanel, don't build a frankenpanel. leave out some stuff. if you can't leave anything out, you may very well just have to build a frankenpanel.

Hey! That's what I said!  Or at least tried to. 

[RandyT]

The only thing worse than a FrankenPanel is a panel that doesn't play the games that you love.

QFT!

[saint]

I'm not sure what to say about the half of this thread I just snipped out. Back to Frankenpanels please?

OP - I have a 4 player panel just for Gauntlet. Quartet was also another favorite 4 player game. My solution to playing Tron with a real Tron joystick though was to buy a Tron

[yotsuya]

 My solution to playing Tron with a real Tron joystick though was to buy a Tron

There you have it!

[EvilNuff]

I think that if you have a main panel that handles the vast majority of your needs you can be pretty good with that.  Then any specific controls you want such as tron, rotary joystick, etc you can just build a 2nd panel and swap the whole thing.

[alfonzotan]

I think that if you have a main panel that handles the vast majority of your needs you can be pretty good with that.  Then any specific controls you want such as tron, rotary joystick, etc you can just build a 2nd panel and swap the whole thing.

This is essentially what I'm doing.  The already-built Frankenpanel is a 95% solution... I'll also build a second swappable panel for the Star Wars yoke eventually.  Still trying to figure out where to put a USB steering wheel setup I bought years ago...

[rcub3]

I think that if you have a main panel that handles the vast majority of your needs you can be pretty good with that.  Then any specific controls you want such as tron, rotary joystick, etc you can just build a 2nd panel and swap the whole thing.

That's what i'm going to shoot for. Maybe a main 4 player w trackball cp, and an extra cp for tron, maybe a rotary, and maybe a SW yoke. The latter would be the frankenpanel that would be rarely used.

[leapinlew]

Just cause it has a tron stick doesn't mean it's a frankenpanel!!! 

If you can do it tastefully, it's not a frankenpanel. Check out this panel:


See what I mean? Tasteful is the key.

[scofthe7seas]

See what I mean? Tasteful is the key.

That could possibly be the frankenist frankenpanel that ever franked a panel. You can't judge other frankenpanels if you happen to own frankenpanel prime.

Bias.

[Vigo]

What do you mean? He limited himself to 3 trackballs.

[scofthe7seas]

What do you mean? He limited himself to 3 trackballs.

Indeed. My mistake.

[Donkbaca]

I don't get the 4 spinners...

[Howard_Casto]

Just cause it has a tron stick doesn't mean it's a frankenpanel!!! 

If you can do it tastefully, it's not a frankenpanel. Check out this panel:


See what I mean? Tasteful is the key.

Does that thing merge to form Voltron?  Console ripped from the space shuttle?  I could go on.....

My 2 cents..... admin buttons.... you don't need them.  At all, period.  3 mame cabs, no admin buttons on any of them.  Why?  Well my computers came with these inventions named "keyboards".  When I need to do some settings adjustments (which is rare) I pull out this mythical "keyboard" and it has all the "keys" I need to change settings. 

Seriously admin buttons is like putting a sign on a machine that says "I would rather have my machine look like a train wreck than bend down and pull a keyboard out of the coin door."

[RandyT]

Needs more cowbell.

[yotsuya]

So when can we expect the exclusive Tru-Groovy Custom Cowbell Replica? I want mine with RGB leds!

[scofthe7seas]

I don't get the 4 spinners...

Warlords? :/

[RandyT]

So when can we expect the exclusive Tru-Groovy Custom Cowbell Replica? I want mine with RGB leds!

I'm waiting for them to release the USB 7.0 Hyper-Speed-On-The-Go™ spec., so we can do it right. 

[leapinlew]

Seriously admin buttons is like putting a sign on a machine that says "I would rather have my machine look like a train wreck than bend down and pull a keyboard out of the coin door."

Some people consider quarter/pause admin buttons. You use a coin-up button?

[drventure]

I still wish I could have justified 4 spinners for a good warlords.

But alas. As frankenpanelish as my cp is (and it's way over the top frankenpanel  ) I just couldn't do it.

But if I could figure out how to make the spinner knobs popup from flush with the CP normally, there's still a possibility 

[Xiaou2]

LINEAR ACTUATOR 6" 12V
http://cgi.ebay.com/2-Linear-Actuator-225lb-Adjustable-Stroke-12-Volt-DC-/130437730202?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e5eb1cf9a

 Plus a magnetic removable wood top cover = success

 (probably need a 2" travel at most actually.  Though, you could always just sink the thing deeper as needed.. so it will always top out at the correct height)


 3 spinners = 3 player supersprint

[Howard_Casto]

Seriously admin buttons is like putting a sign on a machine that says "I would rather have my machine look like a train wreck than bend down and pull a keyboard out of the coin door."

Some people consider quarter/pause admin buttons. You use a coin-up button?

Btw admin buttons I mean ANY buttons other than those you would find on a real life arcade machine.

So no, I don't have coin up buttons, I have a coin door (rigged to coin-up when the coin return is pressed).  What's a pause button for?  In the arcades you couldn't pause games and therefore no pausing will be allowed on my panel

I don't even have an exit button.... old school "press start 1 and start 2" for me.  There are shift modifiers on keyboard encoders for those rare instances in which you need to press something odd like pause.

[leapinlew]

Seriously admin buttons is like putting a sign on a machine that says "I would rather have my machine look like a train wreck than bend down and pull a keyboard out of the coin door."

Some people consider quarter/pause admin buttons. You use a coin-up button?

Btw admin buttons I mean ANY buttons other than those you would find on a real life arcade machine.

So no, I don't have coin up buttons, I have a coin door (rigged to coin-up when the coin return is pressed).  What's a pause button for?  In the arcades you couldn't pause games and therefore no pausing will be allowed on my panel

I don't even have an exit button.... old school "press start 1 and start 2" for me.  There are shift modifiers on keyboard encoders for those rare instances in which you need to press something odd like pause.

This is how I do it too. I'm pretty sure I'll put coin-up buttons on the CP on the MKII I'm building. Pause is a hidden shift function as well as shutting down the FE.

Once a machine is setup properly, admin buttons aren't needed.

[JustMichael]

Just cause it has a tron stick doesn't mean it's a frankenpanel!!! 

If you can do it tastefully, it's not a frankenpanel. Check out this panel:


See what I mean? Tasteful is the key.

Will this control panel could hold all the controls you want, probably but moving it will be a b!+@#.  With the control panel attached, the cabinet can only go through very wide hallways and french doors, regular doors are out.  If you drive down the highway with the cab upright, you better have it strapped down or it will fly out of the truckbed.  The control panel will act like a giant wing.  I don't even want to guess at what would happen if a crosswind hit the cabinet going down the road.

On my Mame cabinet I only have 3 admin buttons.  One to enter/exit games, one to pause the game and one to reset the game (never used it).  Coins/tokens are handle by the coin door.

[scofthe7seas]

Honestly, I don't believe he was serious about that panel. That thing is too ridiculous to exist.

show me a picture of it built and I will believe it.

[Hoopz]

Honestly, I don't believe he was serious about that panel. That thing is too ridiculous to exist.

show me a picture of it built and I will believe it.

This thread is crying for a crapmame link so here it is:

http://wickedretarded.com/~crapmame/30.html

It's probably the closest to the sketch that Lou posted which was tongue in cheek....

[Xiaou2]

That guys an even bigger Idiot than I thought:

"Also, if you look close, you'll see that the sideline controllers are not angled to the screen like usual 3rd & 4th player."

 I dont believe Any arcade machines angled their furthest sticks.   If you angled them, the player will get confused, and when they press up into the screen... will end up going diagonal.

 The only thing they even angle are the buttons.  The biggest problem is no additional distance between the monitor and the CP, to give player 3&4 a slightly better view.

  Its sad to see such ignorance.. and the guy really isnt funny.  He just an ignorant obsessed moron, and a pond scum punk.

[Donkbaca]

At least I'm funny

[leapinlew]

If you angled them, the player will get confused, and when they press up into the screen... will end up going diagonal.

I'm pretty sure that is my line. I build arcade cabinets to be enjoyed by me and any of my guests so I build them simple and easy to understand. As a result, I have multiple cabinets which play different game styles. You usually chime in about how it doesn't matter what the guests think and if they can't work a arcade control panel they must be some kind of morons.

Glad to see you coming around. Easy control schemes for guests is important. 

[Xiaou2]

I build arcade cabinets to be enjoyed by me and any of my guests so I build them simple and easy to understand. As a result, I have multiple cabinets which play different game styles.

 Good for you.  But, not everyone can be like you. Not everyone can dedicate a room of space to all the game types they love.  Not everyone wants to spend time swapping panels either.

You usually chime in about how it doesn't matter what the guests think and if they can't work a arcade control panel they must be some kind of morons.

 Uhh, No.  I pretty much said I could care less about what some internet punks care about, nor do I care if my friends care about what my panel looks like.

 Having a bunch of controls on a panel doesnt equate to unplayable or complex.  However, having a joystick put at an angle is unplayable, even to an experienced player.  Theres a mountain of difference.

 Your entitled to your opinions, but dont think your way is the best way nor the only way.

[(+_+)]

I concur with the angled joysticks. I found playing games with them to be very unintuitive, but that's just me... and perhaps others.

[(+_+)]

Just cause it has a tron stick doesn't mean it's a frankenpanel!!! 

If you can do it tastefully, it's not a frankenpanel. Check out this panel:


See what I mean? Tasteful is the key.

Will this control panel could hold all the controls you want, probably but moving it will be a b!+@#.  With the control panel attached, the cabinet can only go through very wide hallways and french doors, regular doors are out.  If you drive down the highway with the cab upright, you better have it strapped down or it will fly out of the truckbed.  The control panel will act like a giant wing.  I don't even want to guess at what would happen if a crosswind hit the cabinet going down the road.

On my Mame cabinet I only have 3 admin buttons.  One to enter/exit games, one to pause the game and one to reset the game (never used it).  Coins/tokens are handle by the coin door.

Little kids are going to have to jump or use a step ladder to reach the admin buttons.

[leapinlew]

Your entitled to your opinions, but dont think your way is the best way nor the only way.

I don't think my way is the only way, but I do think it's the best way. Isn't that what an opinion is all about?

Also, having a bunch of controls on a control panel = complex.

[Donkbaca]

Makes sense, if I didn't think my way was the best way, then I would do things a different way, in which case the different way would basically be the way I did it, which would sort of make it my way.  So, yeah, my way is definitely the best way

LLew FTW

[scofthe7seas]

Little kids are going to have to jump or use a step ladder to reach the admin buttons.

Little kids need to keep their damned grubby hands off of the admin buttons!

[drventure]

Angled sticks FTW!

 

[eds1275]

Re: p3 & p4 - on my cab there is going to be USB ports on the underside of the control panel. There will be xbox 360 wired controllers in the coin door. Being player 3 or 4 is a punishment - they shoulda called dibs or arrived earlier.

[Vigo]

You can angle joysticks as long as you angle the control panel as well. Much better than ending up staring at the back wall when playing.

[Xiaou2]

You can angle joysticks as long as you angle the control panel as well. Much better than ending up staring at the back wall when playing.

 You could, but you will still have players hitting the wrong direction, because even with your body facing the same direction as the sticks... 'up' will always be parallel to the monitor as far as a player is concerned.  Especially since theres no time to think about it.

 The proof is pretty much solidified in the Arcades.  Out of all the games ever made, I dont think there is more than one that has angled sticks. (is there even one?)

 (not counting game intentionally angled diagonally, like Qbert.  Im talking 4 player style)

 Some Idiot angled a Pedestal Tekken III machine with angled sticks and it totally messed me over, as well as many others.   Sure it matched the angles of the panel... but you dont Look at the panel when you play.  You look at the screen.
And theres no way to tell by feel which way is UP either.  Even if you made a braille type of carved CP system, it probably would still see mistakes / failures.

[CheffoJeffo]

As much as it pains me to be the one who says it (where is Paige when you need him?), Xiaou2 is correct.

[leapinlew]

Xiaou2 is correct.

Cheffo, if you don't have anything nice to say....

[Vigo]

You can angle joysticks as long as you angle the control panel as well. Much better than ending up staring at the back wall when playing.

 You could, but you will still have players hitting the wrong direction, because even with your body facing the same direction as the sticks... 'up' will always be parallel to the monitor as far as a player is concerned.  Especially since theres no time to think about it.

 The proof is pretty much solidified in the Arcades.  Out of all the games ever made, I dont think there is more than one that has angled sticks. (is there even one?)

 (not counting game intentionally angled diagonally, like Qbert.  Im talking 4 player style)

 Some Idiot angled a Pedestal Tekken III machine with angled sticks and it totally messed me over, as well as many others.   Sure it matched the angles of the panel... but you dont Look at the panel when you play.  You look at the screen.
And theres no way to tell by feel which way is UP either.  Even if you made a braille type of carved CP system, it probably would still see mistakes / failures.

It may just be a case that you may not be able to process the concept that the controls face you and not the screen, but that doesn't make it a blanket statement for everyone here. If you ever played any console game in your life, chances are you played them when not directly facing the screen. You may be the special guy who has to angle his joystick or gamepad to match the television angle, but that would be your special case.

The reason that this doesn't exist in the real arcade realm is because real estate is a major issue with any commercial game. Games were 4 players butted up shoulder to shoulder, with a width less than 35". Smaller screens, too. Players 3 and 4 are standing at a 90 degree angle to the screen, and forced to process joystick directions in collaboration with the screen.

I used to think that angling was a bad thing until I inadvertently made my 4 player control panel angled for each player, but kept the joysticks straight. Every time I had friends over, they would try to control the joysticks to their angle. I didn't quite get it at first, since my 4 player Trog had straight joysticks and that worked fine for everyone.

Case in point, if you have an x-arcade or some modular control panel for you PC, set it on your desk and then angle your monitor 45 degrees. Can you still play without angling your x-arcade 45 degrees as well?

[Donkbaca]

You know what, I am totally with X2 on this one.  You react and play in relation to the screen, not the CP, if you want to move up, you move the joy towards the screen

[Vigo]

You know, I have found it all depends on the setup though. I couldn't possibly play Trog if the joysticks were angles. On a wider angled control panel with more space, a larger screen that you are farther from, it works fine.

  It's just something I learned from stumbling into the situation where I had to angle my joysticks for friends that came over due to my specific setup.

[mytymaus007]

all the time wsted blogging about your cab you coud of just worked extra hours and bought a real cab for each game.

[scofthe7seas]

Aside from games that need two joysticks, I can't see how angled sticks can affect game play. Like Donkbaca said, people put the stick towards the screen.... which is how the sticks are typically angled. Imagine a four player cab with all four players lined up in a row. Absurd, I say! Not aesthetically pleasing either, some kind of giant block mothership looking CP. Unless you are playing an angled set, specifically at an angle to the actual controller (parallel to the screen instead of in the angled cp location, like playing player 3, while in a player one spot... which is stupid, and by association makes you stupid.) then the angle really shouldn't be a factor. People didn't seem to have a problem playing gauntlet legends. Or am I mistaken in what this conversation is about?
Now, two stick games like smash TV, yes. Way yes. Difficult with an angled stick for two players. Perhaps impossible for a guest to get a hang of it in limited time (and why would they if there are so many other games to play). A single person, or two (like a roommate, I won't say wife because I'll go out on a limb and state that no wives like smash TV) could get the hang of it, but not a guest.

[Vigo]

Sounds pretty spot on to me.

I won't say wife because I'll go out on a limb and state that no wives like smash TV

  

[RandyT]

Or am I mistaken in what this conversation is about?

I think you might be.  Folks are talking about angle in reference to the twisting of the joystick base about the center axis of the shaft.  Gauntlet Legends is a good example of how, even though the buttons are angled to the player, the stick is not.

+1 for keeping left and right parallel to the screen face.

[CheffoJeffo]

I'm actually kinda surprised that it has been such a long time since this topic has come up (as evidenced by my reference to Paige).

[scofthe7seas]

Or am I mistaken in what this conversation is about?

I think you might be.  Folks are talking about angle in reference to the twisting of the joystick base about the center axis of the shaft.  Gauntlet Legends is a good example of how, even though the buttons are angled to the player, the stick is not.

+1 for keeping left and right parallel to the screen face.

So are we saying.. player 3, off to the left, joystick and buttons angled to point at the screen, pressing up on the joystick - towards the screen, is bad or good. Because that's how my setup is. Basically like the standard slikstick (sorry for mentioning such blasphemy Randy ) 4p setup. I don't have a pic right now, but something like this
      ________
P3_
     /|
JS
   oo
\   oo
 \   oo
  \________
Nobody I know has a problem with this. Sorry for the crude drawing (you do better.   )

[scofthe7seas]

Let me also qualify my statement by saying that I am now having doubts as to how I set mine up. I don't play as player 3 as often as you'd think (it's my house, and my cab and ---fudgesicle--- you, you play over there). I do recall playing smash tv and it playing like garbage. I'll check at lunch time. If I'm wrong, well; sorry Vigo. I will have to bandwagon against you. I have no choice in the matter so as to save my dignity.

I will also have some sweet delicious hat / and or / crow to eat.

[Donkbaca]

dignity is overrated, always being right is better, if you are wrong, quietly change the subject

[Malenko]

dignity is overrated, always being right is better, if you are wrong, quietly change the subject

or put up huge walls of text and go off on wild tangents about how trampolines are like hotdogs.

[scofthe7seas]

dignity is overrated, always being right is better, if you are wrong, quietly change the subject

or put up huge walls of text and go off on wild tangents about how trampolines are like hotdogs.

Is that his tactic all along?

Incidentally, they are both fun in small spans of time, you probably only enjoy them once or twice a year, and they both have a solid opportunity to make you sick. Boosh.

[Vigo]

You know, the funny thing is that a year ago I would be agreeing with you all, as I have owned multiple 4 player cabs. I always considered angling a joystick to be pure blasphemy.

Then once I made a control panel that was wider and offset, the reverse felt natural to everyone. sorry about the crappy ms paint image, but for the setup I made, player 3 was how it was initially setup (look at the crappy arrow by the joystick), then I had to adjust to the way player 4 is set up because everybody got confused. It might have something to do with the TV being bigger and the control panel being more offset from the screen...  

[scofthe7seas]

Dude, what rom is that!?!? Cat vs.. one of the bases from Fantasy Zone? = awesome.

[Donkbaca]

Vigo... hands down Best Post EVER!!!


BTW, whatever happened to that instructable contest?

[Vigo]

Haha! Thanks!

My SNES was an instructables finalist, but not a winner....I got bumped off by a mario snuggie... 

[scofthe7seas]

I've checked, and I stand by my panel design! Hooray for functional memory!

[Xiaou2]

If you ever played any console game in your life, chances are you played them when not directly facing the screen.

 When you play a console game, you generally are using gamepads.  With a gamepad, you can feel which direction is which, because of the Dpad grooves / surfaces.
 
 A bat joystick can fact any direction, and the user has no way of telling which angles the thing is in, other than seeing the result on the screen after the fact.

 The majority of people will orient to the monitor and not the CP angle.  Which is exactly why the Arcades orient to the monitor, and not the CP.

 To reduce the space required, they angled the buttons, so that your body has to  angle to a narrower stance, and thus your elbows are not intruding on the other players space.

 See the original Gauntlet for example.   As well as pretty much any 3 to 4 player CP that existed in the Arcades.
 

[Vigo]

If you ever played any console game in your life, chances are you played them when not directly facing the screen.

 When you play a console game, you generally are using gamepads.  With a gamepad, you can feel which direction is which, because of the Dpad grooves / surfaces.
 

I guess I may have played more console gaming from ages earlier than you have, but I am used to joysticks just as much as controllers. Atari, commodore, nes advantage. made no difference in orientation to screen when using the joysticks, even when I used the arcade bat style joysticks.

The majority of people will orient to the monitor and not the CP angle.  Which is exactly why the Arcades orient to the monitor, and not the CP.

I agree that is true with a traditional arcade machine, but with home machines and pedestal machine expanding, I think players can disassociate themselves with the monitor more and connect to the controls more. That's my experience at least.  

To reduce the space required, they angled the buttons, so that your body has to  angle to a narrower stance, and thus your elbows are not intruding on the other players space.

 See the original Gauntlet for example.   As well as pretty much any 3 to 4 player CP that existed in the Arcades.
 

Haha, I have an original Gauntlet, granted it is in pieces right now. I know exactly how the controls exist on 4 player arcade games. I agree you can't angles the controls on a Gauntlet. My only point is that for home machines, angled joysticks can work as long as certain conditions are right. Conditions that were not found ever effective on commercial machines, so they were not used. Conditions like space for each player, a degree of separation from the screen, and a clear angled set of controls that the player knows can acknowledge the angle they are playing at.




Anyway, this is turning into a "Green Eggs and Ham" argument. Nobody I'm debating really has tried an effective use of angled controls, nor really wants to pursue trying it. That's fine by me. Unless somebody wants to submit this one to the Mythbusters, I would say that this debate won't get resolved. I think it really doesn't need much pursuit anymore.

[Hoopz]

OUTSTANDING!  Another thread turns into dork recess.   

[Donkbaca]

I think, hands down, a great frankenpanel design would be one where there are , 2 rotary sticks, tron stick, 4 spinners, 3 trackballs... and wait for it...4 players, 16 buttons per player!  That way, the player could have 8 buttons and decide whether or not they want to use their joystick with their left or right hand like the really old games....

Build that

FTW


o o o o           o o o o
              X
o o o o           o o o o

[TopJimmyCooks]

Sincere apologies to Rcub3, if you haven't already bugged out of this joint. 

[Vigo]

Snarf?

[Xiaou2]

I guess I may have played more console gaming from ages earlier than you have, but I am used to joysticks just as much as controllers. Atari, commodore, nes advantage. made no difference in orientation to screen when using the joysticks, even when I used the arcade bat style joysticks.

 My Grampa showed us a Vic20 when it first came out. I think I was 7.. maybe.  He gave us his C64, when he went to c128, owned a 2600, played coleco, nes, and intellivision systems. Bought an Amiga, Sega Master, Sega Genesis/CDX, Snes, Lynx, NeoGeo CD, PS1, PS2, and prolly something else Im forgetting.

 Ive played on just about every type of controller and joystick you can imagine, on both home systems, and the arcades.  I grew up in a city where arcades were monstrous in the 80s, And as said, I managed a busy mall arcade for 3yrs.

 Ive seen it all. Ive fixed it all.  Ive even hand built my own controllers from scratch.

 I currently own 3 coinop machines, and 3 pins.  I own two of almost every controller that has ever been created for an arcade machine.

 Im no slouch when it comes to game skillz either.  And as for coordination, concentration, and orientation... Im a skilled martial artist, starting at age 20, now am 37.  I can stop a full speed strike within a mm of the target if I so choose, have used a Shaolin toe stab to accurately nab pressure points on a moving live skilled artist.  Have demo'd sightless responses to attacks (using feel, positioning, and awareness alone).  Ive redirected a strike + hit the target with the other hand + kicked a limb... all in the same moment of time,  in full contact sparring many times.
Few have developed the level of skills and bodily awareness that Ive attained.

I agree that is true with a traditional arcade machine, but with home machines and pedestal machine expanding, I think players can disassociate themselves with the monitor more and connect to the controls more. That's my experience at least.  I dunno!

 Id be pretty much willing to bet money you couldnt play the angled sticks and beat a good player in an intensive game (like a modern fighting game) against them.  All it takes is one slip up... and Id bet you have slipped up many more times than that in a single session.  Though, Im betting you have never really spent any real depth of time playing angled controls. Probably stuck your guest on them instead.

 As for Pedestals, it doesnt matter.  For one thing, there are many large 4p control panels out there, such as the original D&D games.  There were also many Pedestal games made in the 90s/00s.

I agree you can't angles the controls on a Gauntlet. My only point is that for home machines, angled joysticks can work as long as certain conditions are right. Conditions that were not found ever effective on commercial machines, so they were not used. Conditions like space for each player, a degree of separation from the screen, and a clear angled set of controls that the player knows can acknowledge the angle they are playing at.

 For one, I can tell you havent seen a lot of the larger 4player cps that were in the arcades.  Gauntlet is a rare exception with its highly condensed CP.  Most of the others are beasts, and used non-enclosed 25" monitors, with plenty of viewability for all the players.  NONE of these angled the sticks, when clearly they COULD have done so to save space and money.  Of course, this is all ignoring all the rigorous testing and feedback they got from massed of players...

 As Ive said before, it does not matter if the CP has a definite angle, nor if the buttons are also at that perfect angle.  The player will STILL mess up and press into the screen instead of at the diagonal thats required.  If you are deep in the game, you will lose your ability to make the additional translation corrections.  And being that you still cant FEEL the angles, you will easily lose track of it.

 If you yourself havent yet had this problem, then its probably to do with the game being easy as pie, and you not playing for a very long period of time.. or you are simply looking past the mistakes you made because you cant handle the fact that all your hard work that your so proud of, was made out of ignorance, and is poorly functioning.

[Vigo]

  I think it's my cue to not even respond to this junk anymore. You say one little thing that goes against these people's dogma, and they won't stop. I guess if I don't conform to agree with explicit opinions of the self proclaimed forum wizards, I'm shunned with great walls of text, trampolines, hotdogs, and claims that I am the arrogant one.





I hope this ends this madness.

Ahem. Your attention please. 

1) There is never ever ever ever any situation where an angled joystick can be used around any kind of arcade related machine...ever. Just because I was forced to angle my joysticks so that my guests would no longer be confused by the controls only proves that angled controls are always bad...somehow.

2) I was not an arcade manager, therefore I can't state any opinion that is not shared by the wizards, even it it has nothing to do with real commercial arcade machines.

3) Crappy spelling and walllz of text is da bomb!

4) I am not allowed to try to form any form of "best games" list because I am incapable of knowing what games I like.
(I still don't get that one.)

5) Centipede RULEEZ!!

[Xiaou2]

[scofthe7seas]

You absolutely lost every potential ounce of credability with the phrase "Shaolin Toe Stab". 

 I literally could not read further. I was trying, I was going along with what you were saying. Then boom. Had to stop.

[drventure]

I thought it was "Shoalin toe STUB"

Damn, that'd hurt....

[Xiaou2]

The Term is loosely based on who I saw using it.  Id never been officially taught anything Shaolin, (just a few things not worth mention)  mostly only Wing Chun.

 The technique, using the toe much the same as a finger strike / stab.  You get the extended distance, and a deep penetrating strike.  Its also lightning 'jab' fast.

 I personally practiced it on my wall mounted sandbags.  Then later, used it in a sparring match against a Kyokoshin Karate instructor & full contact competitor... striking him in his inner thigh, stopping and stunning him.  Afterwords, he immediately asked what the tech was, as thats the only name I could come up with.

Edit:

 And yes, most people would easily break their toes doing this.  Only with a lot of dedicated and specialized training can you get the digit strong enough for weapon usage, without self damage.

[Donkbaca]

Win chun?

Can't hold a candle to Wang Chung!

All together now "Everybody have fun tonight!..."

[scofthe7seas]

Jebus! Stop explaining the Shaolin Toe Stab!! Stop qualifying your Shaolin Toe Stab accolades! Stop expanding on your prowess of said Shaolin Toe Stab, and the expertise required to perform such a maneuver!
That is NOT making it better. You are Shaolin Toe Stabbing your way into the hole further.

[Xiaou2]

Ohh Scott?  And why exactly is that?  Is it because you think theres no valid techniques in Chinese martial arts systems?

 Over 2000 yrs of dedicated developments are no joke.  Even IF many of its modern practitioners are.

 Its only when you open your mind, will you ever learn what you do not know.
And without that knowledge, you are just as clueless as the next fool.

 No, I dont know the proper chinese term for the tech... unlike with WC, where I know the main terms of the system.  It doesnt make it invalid.

 Then again, I cant imagine a non martial artist having a clue anyways...
let alone a closed minded artist.

 Your more than welcome to look over my training equipment:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/22593093@N05/sets/72157621206691424/

 Which includes 4" diameter metal kick poles, hanging bags of steel bbs, a 6ft tall heavy bag, and many other custom built training devices. (based on the original old-skool training devices & methods.  Not a watered down school of performance)

[scofthe7seas]

I honestly have no response to this. Well played, sir.

[Xiaou2]

*Bows*

 Thanks.   

[Donkbaca]

Little known fact, X2 was the inspiration for a Tekken character

[Howard_Casto]

Thanks for posting those, because after this ridiculous "angled joysticks are acceptable" argument I was about to. 

You can't angle your joysticks.... period.  This is one of the few taboos you should never break.  It's right up there with making a "left handed fighter panel" with the buttons on the left and the joystick on the right. 

I mean it's your machine so you can do anything you want, but if you actually want other people to be able to play games on it then there are a few rules you have to stick to.

I also take offense to people calling those giving the correct advice arrogant.  We aren't arrogant, we have been doing this longer, we've built more cabinets then you have, many of us have prior experience in the arcade industry.  In short, we know what we are doing while people newer to the hobby don't.  If we tell you not to do something it is probably because at one point we, or somebody we know tried what you are suggesting and it turned out horribly. 

Learn from our mistakes.... we are here to help, not post judgment.  (Even though sometimes the two blend together).

[scofthe7seas]

If you're referring to Vigo, I don't think he was actually calling anybody arrogant, so much as defending someone calling him that.. :\

[Paul Olson]

Inspiration? Crap, I thought he was a Tekken character.

[CheffoJeffo]

:Sigh

Are you trying to be grating, Cheffo?

I think I was ... it was a little over the top, which is why I killed the post.

[rcub3]

I think it is fair to say that this by now has turned into a Frankenthread.

[alfonzotan]

I think it is fair to say that this by now has turned into a Frankenthread.

I hope you're proud of yourself, Dr. Fronkenthreadsteen.

[Vigo]

:Sigh

Are you trying to be grating, Cheffo?

I think I was ... it was a little over the top, which is why I killed the post.

Hey, thanks for that, since it does no good leaving my post up either, I took it off too.....well....actually I don't know how to delete posts, so I just replaced it with a picture of Snarf. 

If you're referring to Vigo, I don't think he was actually calling anybody arrogant, so much as defending someone calling him that.. :\

Thanks. I think you read these posts better than most.  Heck, I didn't even make it to the Shaolin Toe stab part on X2's post.

[Vigo]

Thanks for posting those, because after this ridiculous "angled joysticks are acceptable" argument I was about to. 

You can't angle your joysticks.... period.  This is one of the few taboos you should never break.  It's right up there with making a "left handed fighter panel" with the buttons on the left and the joystick on the right. 

I mean it's your machine so you can do anything you want, but if you actually want other people to be able to play games on it then there are a few rules you have to stick to.

I also take offense to people calling those giving the correct advice arrogant.  We aren't arrogant, we have been doing this longer, we've built more cabinets then you have, many of us have prior experience in the arcade industry.  In short, we know what we are doing while people newer to the hobby don't.  If we tell you not to do something it is probably because at one point we, or somebody we know tried what you are suggesting and it turned out horribly. 

Learn from our mistakes.... we are here to help, not post judgment.  (Even though sometimes the two blend together).

Hey Howard, I think if you reread the thread you would see I am not really pushing anyone towards angled joysticks, I am merely pointing out that it ended up working for me. I am not calling anyone who says otherwise wrong, arrogant, or giving incorrect advice or anything. I even point out that I always believed the same thing. I just recently came to the realization that there can be an exception to the rule, but I didn't even know why.

I think if anything useful is to be gotten out of this whole thing, it is that there are tried and true standards, and that is where anyone with questions is to be directed toward. Overall, this is the builder's personal machine, and they can build it however they want, even if they want buttons on the left, or angle joysticks or a 3 headed ostrich glued to it. Just make a test panel to try out what works best before investing in making the finished product.


Also, sorry rcub3. I never intended this to turn into a "religious debate".

[scofthe7seas]

Back on topic: Avoiding a Frankenpanel.

Don't put weird asymmetrical ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- on there, agreed?

[Donkbaca]

nah, you can be symmetrical and still have  a franken panel.  To avoid a franken panel, build one that will play most things, not everything

[Xiaou2]

The debate is like the choice of Car you want to drive.

  A sports car has pretty lines, a powerful engine, superior performance components, superior handling at high speeds...

But if has negatives:

 No storage space, only 2 seats, fuel costs, very expensive to purchase & own, no AC, limited gadgetry, horrible ride for long trips (stiff suspension).


 So maybe you want a minivan?  It can transport a lot more stuff... but, it doesnt look too good comparatively.

 What about some sort of crossover?   They have sleeker body lines... however, the capacity to hold stuff is extremely reduced.


 The solution that mirrors a lot of the bashing around here:

 Buy all types of cars.  One for each type of purpose you need / want.

 Drawback?   Not everyone can afford that solution.  Not everyone has the garage space to contain them.  Not everyone wants to deal with the hassle of swapping cars all the time... rather than just driving a single vehicle.


 From the pictures here, we can see that D&D doesnt look very nice.  However, if you like that game, you dont really care.  Its got 4 players w/ 4 buttons, in a relatively small space to fit 4 people.  Its the minivan of control panels.

 The Gauntlet pedestal cab, is much more pleasing visually, but its also much wider, and required a pedestal for viewing angles to be Ok.  This takes up much more floor space.  With the superior artwork and nicer layout, I guess you could consider this a  Stretch Limo.  (even this one isnt perfectly symmetrical, due to saving a little more space.  Most well functioning cabs are not symmetrical. Then again, many artworks are against symmetry   )

 And Vigo, with his steering wheels and pedals at 45 degree angles.. is driving a custom built   "accident waiting to happen" car      (sorry, couldnt resist Vigo)


 Anyways, the deal is that its up to the individual as to whats most important to them.  Ride comfort, storage, looks, price, space, etc.  There can be any number of combination of assemblies to get the desired results... but make no mistake, you cant get everything you want without Some sort of compromise.

 The best solution could be said as purchase of an entire Arcade... but not everyone could do that.  And even then, the compromise is money, repair costs/time, higher electric bills, heating/cooling expenses for the building/space, etc.

 There are many solutions to getting more options than was standard.  But as said, there will still always be some compromises.

 Drive what you like.  Play what you like. 

 Make a list of whats most important to you beforehand, and go from there.

[Vigo]

And Vigo, with his steering wheels and pedals at 45 degree angles.. is driving a custom built   "accident waiting to happen" car      (sorry, couldnt resist Vigo)

And people said it was my driving that was 45 degrees off. See? It was the car all along.

Oh wait, this is an analogy?




Well, I guess I had that coming.....

[Donkbaca]

Make a list of whats most important to you beforehand, and go from there.

You need every know and then X2 says something that makes sense

[Vigo]

Make a list of whats most important to you beforehand, and go from there.

You need every know and then X2 says something that makes sense

.....Unlike the sentance you just formed. 

[CheffoJeffo]

 

[Malenko]

The debate is like the choice of Car you want to drive.

  A sports car has pretty lines, a powerful engine, superior performance components, superior handling at high speeds...

But if has negatives:

 No storage space, only 2 seats, fuel costs, very expensive to purchase & own, no AC, limited gadgetry, horrible ride for long trips (stiff suspension).

Where do you buy your cars from? Subaru Imprezza starts at $25k and its 4 door. If you get a WRX and or STi AWD edition its a turbo charged horizontally opposed flat 4. Has AC, gadgets, and an adjustable suspension.

Oh wait, this was another one of your "rants about ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- Xiaou2 doesn't know about" my bad. Sorry, do go on........

From the pictures here, we can see that D&D doesnt look very nice.  However, if you like that game, you dont really care.  Its got 4 players w/ 4 buttons, in a relatively small space to fit 4 people.  Its the minivan of control panels.

Again with the "we", YOU say it doesn't look very nice. I think its a FINE (Sunset Riders? Single speaker panel means its not a Simpsons cab) conversion.

And Vigo, with his steering wheels and pedals at 45 degree angles.. is driving a custom built   "accident waiting to happen" car      (sorry, couldnt resist Vigo)

I kno rite? Its not like any carcade games (see what I did there?) that came out did that.......
http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=7551



This isnt even fun anymore, its too easy. =(
can someone get X to pass the --cream-filled twinkie-- baton back to Chad?

[Howard_Casto]

Malenko... X2... I love/hate you both (what day is it again?  I can't remember which side of the slash I'm supposed to be using) but you've gotta relax a bit. 


Pretty sure you guys have gone into the personal region and out of the debate region considering that Malenko just posted a pic of a cabinet with steering wheels and the wheels that X2 was talking about were "analogy steering wheels" (referring to joysticks being put at a 45, which is a big no-no).


Just no fighting please.... everybody is supposed to be mad at me, it just feels akward when the hostility is directed at someone deserving. 

[Donkbaca]

meh.... People get mad at me to. I flip between knowledgeable, funny and obnoxious

I think you build what you want, but if what you want is this:

http://wickedretarded.com/~crapmame/3.html

I have every right to make fun of you

[Howard_Casto]

p.s. 

Andy Warren of Ultimarc just announced that the new "Ultralux Analogy Steering Wheels" will be available this fall!  The are compatable not only with MAME but any comparsions you want to make between driving and life!

p.p.s.

RandyT just announced that the new "AnalogyWiz Steering Wheels" will be available this fall as well!  Randy assures me they will be better than the crappy Ultralux wheels in every way but was a little vague as to how.  Something to do with some leds, a wizard, and Captain Marvel??


p.p.p.s.

+1 bounus points to anyone who figures out why mentioning Randy and Captain Marvel is funny.




Ok I'm done..... really need to sleep better at night to quiet the voices.

[Howard_Casto]

meh.... People get mad at me to. I flip between knowledgeable, funny and obnoxious

I think you build what you want, but if what you want is this:

http://wickedretarded.com/~crapmame/3.html

I have every right to make fun of you

Agreed!!

[Xiaou2]

Where do you buy your cars from? Subaru Imprezza starts at $25k and its 4 door. If you get a WRX and or STi AWD edition its a turbo charged horizontally opposed flat 4. Has AC, gadgets, and an adjustable suspension.

 Besides being an Analogy, the meaning was more in line with true sportcars. Such as the ones which are pretty much all carbon fiber, and have no thrills interior, and cost WAY more than $25k.

  They also look about 200,000 times as Hot as the cars you listed.  Hence my point.
But anyways, I see you just cant seem to stop your infatuation with me... so carry on...

I kno rite? Its not like any carcade games (see what I did there?) that came out did that.......
http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=7551

 Wow.  Try again meloozer.  Thats 45 degrees in the other Plane.  You know, such as the drivers wheel pointing towards the drivers side window.  IE: HORIZONTALLY 45 degrees, not vertical.

 I tell you... the school system plan of making sure kids cant actually think correctly & logically, has definitely worked.

[yotsuya]

Out of all the CrapMame cabs, my favorite is Pac-Matt. Why the track ball is 2 feet to the right of the screen is beyond me.

[Xiaou2]

Probably to keep his main controls centered in view, and no problems with crashing his hands into a joystick, as happens with most trackball layouts on cabs, due to the fact that most dont leave enough room for a hard roll.

 The only other explanation, is simply use for navigation, as a mouse.

 Im not saying I agree with his choice, just that I understand it.

 A lot of these guys cant be faulted too much.  You can tell by the Marble contact paper, this stuff is very old, and building a game cabinet was almost unheard of.

 Its like picking on footage of Bruce Lee when he was just starting to learn the arts, VS when he was able to sidekick a 300lb heavy bag to the ceiling.

 Then again, thats what bullies often do.  Pick on others to make themselves look / feel better about themselves.

[Xiaou2]

Btw - I have a great way to resolve any disputes about angled sticks:

 All you do is make a simple game that flashes arrows in a random directions.  Then, the player must immediately (under 1/2 sec time) match the directions displayed.  Three fails in 2 minutes, and the rigged explosive charges go off.

    

[Bootay]

Just use Dragons Lair. 

[saint]

Quit dooshing up threads! 

Bunch of garbage snipped.

[CheffoJeffo]

HC -- nice Captain Marvel reference!

[Malenko]

Quit dooshing up threads!  

Bunch of garbage snipped.

aww but you snipped a legit post of mine, the wheels are both 45* vertical and 30* horizontal

[NipRing]

My new panel. Frankenpanel? Yea or Nay? I did my best to not make it look frankenpanel but space was very limited. I spaced the art so it wasnt cluttered up but kept the original feel.

[scofthe7seas]

My new panel. Frankenpanel? Yea or Nay? I did my best to not make it look frankenpanel but space was very limited. I spaced the art so it wasnt cluttered up but kept the original feel.

If you can explain the 8 buttons per player, it may help your case against it being a frankenpanel..

[eds1275]

My new panel. Frankenpanel? Yea or Nay? I did my best to not make it look frankenpanel but space was very limited. I spaced the art so it wasnt cluttered up but kept the original feel.

If you can explain the 8 buttons per player, it may help your case against it being a frankenpanel..

My guess is that he does consoles as well.

[Donkbaca]

Not too bad, the 1p button and 2p button are in a weird place, and is that 1 1/2 inch trackball functional?

[NipRing]

Yes my cab runs a full frontend with about a dozen or so emulators. And the p1 and p2 buttons went where i could only go with them. Yes my 1-1/2" trackball is fully functional. I have a thread in project announcements with plently more pics.

[Jack Burton]

8 buttons is definitely for console play.

In a lot of console fighting games the 2 extra buttons, be they LT+RT, or L1+L2 or whatever are useful for navigating menus and doing other administrative functions.  If I were setting up a cab for Xbox 360 or PS3 use I'd definitely have them on there somewhere.  Maybe not next to the other six action buttons though.  

Those start buttons could cause problems though.  In many fighting games the start button is the taunt button.  You don't want a random taunt coming out mid-match.  Same goes for if you ever decide to consolize and don't want a random pause during the match. 

I think I would instead use that pause button there for 1P, and the Credit button for 2P, and then drill another hole next to the 2P button for credits.

[scofthe7seas]

Hey NipRing, what's going on with the rectangular area at the top of your panel? Next to the 100 Yen sticker? What's that do?

[drventure]

@Nipring

That's looks about as non-frankenpanelish as you can get yet still play a nice selection of games.

I'd say Nay.

and it looks great to boot!

 

[NipRing]

Hey NipRing, what's going on with the rectangular area at the top of your panel? Next to the 100 Yen sticker? What's that do?

Thats where a move strip would go.


And Dr.Venture, thank you!

[drventure]

If I'd only known what U360's were capable of when I was first designing my CP, it'd be a lot less frankenpanel-ish.

It's still be a total frankenpanel, just a lot less of one 

But now, I'm in with both feet. Might as well push the limits (within a certain realm of taste and decorum, of course) 

[telengard]

My new panel. Frankenpanel? Yea or Nay? I did my best to not make it look frankenpanel but space was very limited. I spaced the art so it wasnt cluttered up but kept the original feel.

I really like the color scheme and button looks in this one!  Very cool.  I don't think it looks "franken" at all other than maybe having a few too many buttons (but I imagine some games need this many).

IMO the way to avoid a franken-panel is to go modular.  You can use all the original controls if you want and not have to have them all on at the same time.  It is a LOT more effort, and a small amount of work when you want to swap, but it is well worth it (to me at least).

~telengard

[Paul Olson]

Hey telengard, long time no see! Definitely worth the effort. I know we have talked about this quite a bit over the years, but I still couldn't imaging not having the modular panel.

People keep getting hung up on having to swap panels, but it is a non issue. If you don't feel like swapping panels...don't! Play the games that work with the setup you have. I still have my Robotron setup mounted, and I played a quick game of Galaga the other day by mapping fire to the right stick/left. If I really wanted to play a full game of Galaga, I would have changed it.

It is just nice to have the option to change them out to anything you want.

I really need to get busy designing the new cab to go with the LCD TV. I can't wait to get it all up and running again. Playing Robotron is hard when the CP is not bolted down. lol

[Xiaou2]

People keep getting hung up on having to swap panels, but it is a non issue. If you don't feel like swapping panels...don't! Play the games that work with the setup you have.

 How could it not be an issue when people Do want to play other games?  Thats like saying.. Well, theres leftover meatloaf ready Now... eat that instead of cooking up the steak you REALLY want.  And after that, for dessert, eat the jello instead of the Chocolate creme pie you Really want. (that also isnt ready Yet)

 Ok, so you cant take another day of meatloaf?  Then take the time to cook the steak.  No, its not ready 'now', it needs to be seasoned & cooked...


 Thats the whole point. Time and effort spent swapping, when one could just INSTANTLY, without any effort, grab the correct controller and play.  No Cook time.  No cutting veggies up. Its Bang-on ready to go exactly when you want it, with no effort required.

 This thread will be a "Never-Ending" (unless people start to get-it)...
because theres no right or wrong.  Its all about Personal Opinion.

 Theres a plus and a minus to Every alternative.

 If your happy with your swap time, or lacking of swapping... then thats good for you.
Doesnt mean that everyone else will ever feel the same way.   Just like Im never going to like Liver and most all Seafood.

 Just let it go. 
 You put your opinions out, then drop it.  They are well noted by those who actually care.

 Stating the same Opinions over and over again, doesnt change anything.  Nor does the number of like minded people change anything.  Its all personal, and individual, OPINION.
And thats all it will ever be.  It will never be absolute truth,  fact, Right or Wrong.

 Enjoy it your way. 
 And let others Enjoy it Their way.

[Nephasth]

Thats like saying.. Well, theres leftover meatloaf ready Now... eat that instead of cooking up the steak you REALLY want.  And after that, for dessert, eat the jello instead of the Chocolate creme pie you Really want. (that also isnt ready Yet)

I tell the kids this every week!

Just let it go. 
 You put your opinions out, then drop it.  They are well noted by those who actually care.

 Stating the same Opinions over and over again, doesnt change anything.  Nor does the number of like minded people change anything.  Its all personal, and individual, OPINION.
And thats all it will ever be.  It will never be absolute truth,  fact, Right or Wrong.

 Enjoy it your way. 
 And let others Enjoy it Their way.

Sometimes I think you don't hear yourself talk, or if you do, you just choose not to follow your own advice...

[Cynicaster]

I briefly considered the swappable panel route but ultimately I decided to go for a design that can play most of the games most important to me.  I'm totally fine living without Tron and Star Wars.  I decided that the only appeal I would see in swappable panels would be the "science project" challenge of it getting it to work.  As in, "hey, look what I built!  Neat, eh?"  After that, I just know myself--I'd end up with panels sitting in the closet collecting dust.  Not only that, but half the fun for me is having guests over to play on my machine, and if I had to swap panels every 10 minutes it would ruin the pick-up-and-play experience I think.  

On paper the idea of having multiple clean, purposefully built panels sounds great.  But in real world use, maybe I'm just lazy, but the swapping process couldn't possibly be simple and convenient enough--it would always be a pain.  

Now, before everyone gets all upset, I'm just speaking for myself--YMMV.

[telengard]

Hey telengard, long time no see! Definitely worth the effort. I know we have talked about this quite a bit over the years, but I still couldn't imaging not having the modular panel.

People keep getting hung up on having to swap panels, but it is a non issue. If you don't feel like swapping panels...don't! Play the games that work with the setup you have. I still have my Robotron setup mounted, and I played a quick game of Galaga the other day by mapping fire to the right stick/left. If I really wanted to play a full game of Galaga, I would have changed it.

It is just nice to have the option to change them out to anything you want.

I really need to get busy designing the new cab to go with the LCD TV. I can't wait to get it all up and running again. Playing Robotron is hard when the CP is not bolted down. lol

Yep, I still poke around in here from time to time (usually when I'm adding a new control to the cab or upgrading MAME).  Working on the Sinistar 49 way as of late.

I can totally understand why modular wouldn't work for some folks.  For *me* personally, I like having as close to the original layout/controls as possible (probably OCD) so modular was my only option.
And yeah, Robotron not locked down HARD can be ugly.     

~telengard

[rohan]

Rcub3 should totally do this:


Of course my cab has no admin buttons (all shift functions utilizing an i-pac) because frankenpanels are really fugly.  

[Xiaou2]

If you dont like it, dont look at it.

[Bootay]

Rcub3 should totally do this:


Of course my cab has no admin buttons (all shift functions utilizing an i-pac) because frankenpanels are really fugly.  

I would hope those steering wheels are removable. Could you imagine how uncomfortable those must be when playing non-racing games?

[Donkbaca]

I am just glad someone finally had the sense to put 9 buttons per player for all four players!  I am sick of not being able to play 9 button - four player games.

[Bootay]

I am just glad someone finally had the sense to put 9 buttons per player for all four players!  I am sick of not being able to play 9 button - four player games.

LOL

[yotsuya]

I am just glad someone finally had the sense to put 9 buttons per player for all four players!  I am sick of not being able to play 9 button - four player games.

That must be for run left, run center, and run right for 4-Player MK3.

[mgb]

personally I enjoy having steering wheel jammed in my crotch while using the joysticks, its good if I have to ich

[Vigo]

Also great for some great 1 player Lucky and Wild. Steer with your crotch, shoot with both lightguns.

[Donkbaca]

You guys are a bunch of haters.  Did you not see the chairs?  You sit and drive with your knees!  Its great for playing outrun while eating cheeseburgers.

[lordnacho]

Reminds me of Thundercats lair for some reason

[Vigo]

NASA called, they want Houston Control back.

[yotsuya]

If you dont like it, dont look at it.

If you like it, then you shoulda put a ring on it.

[ABACABB]

Where the hell is his microphone for Karaoke in GameEX?  Surely it's in that mess somewhere!

[CheffoJeffo]

If you dont like it, dont look at it.

If you don't like the post, don't respond to it.

 

[Hoopz]

If you dont like it, dont look at it.

If you don't like the post, don't respond to it.

 

Yeah, like that works around here.   

[CheffoJeffo]

If you dont like it, dont look at it.

If you don't like the post, don't respond to it.

 

Yeah, like that works around here.   

You're just a troublemaker!

[Xiaou2]

Constructive Criticism  -vs-  Destructive Trolling

 One way benefits the hobby, strengthens the community, and makes people feel good.

 The other, pushes people away from the community, and shuts people down from sharing, helping, or caring.

[TPB]

I would hope those steering wheels are removable. Could you imagine how uncomfortable those must be when playing non-racing games?

What, those are steering wheels ?  I thought X2 put them there as crotch massagers.

[leapinlew]

Constructive Criticism  -vs-  Destructive Trolling

 One way benefits the hobby, strengthens the community, and makes people feel good.

So says the guy who trolls any of my posts that involve using a spinner instead of buttons.