kids and martial arts?

[ChadTower]

Anyone here have kids studying martial arts?  Karate, Judo, Tae Kwan Do, etc?

I have two boys, 8 and 10.  The younger one loves athletics and is on the small end of his age.  The older one doesn't care much and is way on the big (not fat) side of his age.  I have not found them a school yet and there are quite a few in the area.  I'm interested in the experiences of others with kids in this area if you're willing to share.  

[mpm32]

My daughter, 9 started around three months ago, she loves it.  Most schools will let you do a tryout class before joining.  She did a tryout at one school but didn't really like the atmosphere and teachers. 

We tried another place and she like that so that's where she goes now.

[ChadTower]

I'm seeing a range of around $75-125 per kid with a combo discount for multiple.  Same there?

[EightBySix]

My kids do Jujitsu, and have since about 5 or 6. At that age it's more self defence/stranger awareness etc. My younger boy likes to think he's a ninja ;-)

I wouldn't worry about the kids size as all of the pupils will be different at that age. If he can go with a friend, so much the better.

Some martial arts focus more on mental and physical discipline than others - Karate springs to mind. Could be a bit intimidating for younger students. Try and focus on the fun element to get them hooked.

[HaRuMaN]

I'm seeing a range of around $75-125 per kid with a combo discount for multiple.  Same there?

Send me your kids, $200, and some Turtle Wax(tm).  I'll teach 'em Karate! 

[ChadTower]

My kids do Jujitsu, and have since about 5 or 6. At that age it's more self defence/stranger awareness etc. My younger boy likes to think he's a ninja ;-)

Heh.  The only close Jiu Jitsu school here is Brazillian and doesn't take students this age.  Not until they are teeangers.

I wouldn't worry about the kids size as all of the pupils will be different at that age. If he can go with a friend, so much the better.

Yeah... I did mention that more as a context setter than as any type of determining factor.  One kid is guaranteed to love it and work hard and the other may or may not depending on what mood he's in that day.

[mpm32]

I think we pay $140/month.  She goes 2x a week though so that works out to be $17.50 a class which isn't unreasonable.

She's doing Tang Soo Do Karate and they do stress discipline and the mastery of the forms although I look at some of the kids, even those that are higher belts, flailing around with no regard to their form - lol

She already knew how to punch correctly, I used to box and showed her how to stand and punch.  Wasn't to smart though because she always wants to spar and her tiny fists hurt.

I don't know how much karate will help in a real fight.  In my brawling days I had no problem with several that said they were black belts. - Could have been BSing though.

In her level they do non-contact sparing in class, which I don't see as being very useful.  I'd rather have them padded up and contact sparing - maybe they do that later though.

[ChadTower]

Seems pretty standard to not have contact sparring at 9 years old around here.  I haven't seen any contact sparring at that age in the schools I have looked at.

[mpm32]

Ha, you're right they probably shouldn't but I'd be more entertained. - lol

[ChadTower]

If you want actual contact just put them in the backyard and let them think you aren't watching.   

[EightBySix]

My 9 yr old does contact sparring. No head shots though.

[Xiaou2]

 I suggest a tiered program:


 1) Taekwando  :Merely for the advanced kicking, flexibility, internal toughening, and endurance levels. Poor hand tactics however... and purely based in sport.   Better kicking ability than
typical Karate classes.    Stay in this art for only maybe 2yrs tops.


 2) Akido   :My friends kids took it, young boy & younger girl,  and they love it.
Has plenty of things to keep busy with:  Sensitivity training, locks, throws, weapons, and more.
Much more advanced than the typical watered down sport arts...  However, not every kid
has the patience/focus  level at certain ages for this.

 Unlike Karate (and or some other "Hard-Arts") ... where the larger person has a greater advantage... Akido teaches how to flow around brute force, and use it against that person.

 
 3)  Wing Chun  :In their teens... for the very advanced stuff.  Similar to Akido with its use of
flowing.. but is a much more aggressive and advanced art.   Techniques are very precise,
and require a lot more dedication and focus to master them.   Very combat effective in
only a few years time.

 

 Wushu might also be a fun consideration for the younger set.  However, as cool as Wushu
can be... it no longer is based on real martial arts.  Its more or less advanced acrobatics now.


 I reccomend not staying too many years in the basic arts.  They basically just repeat the
same things over and over again.  While its good to get a solid foundation, too much is
simply redundant,  and you could be spending efforts on learning more techniques and skill
sets in other arts instead.

[SavannahLion]

I don't know how much karate will help in a real fight.  In my brawling days I had no problem with several that said they were black belts. - Could have been BSing though.

Because most of them are ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- little ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?---. I thought for a long time that it was the dojo threatening to kick them out if they ever fought someone that wasn't in the, "art." But after leaving one of the little marshmallow ---punks--- inside a soda machine (long story) I figured it was something more. I got my first real clue when I saw two kids from a different school truly wailing on each other the following year. Yeah, they were both kicked out of both schools for the fight, but man, what a fight! A no holds barred fight between 18 year olds is a sight to see. 

I finally got to talking to someone who owns a school that really clued me in that the schools aren't created equal. I always figured a discipline from one school is about the same as the same discipline from another school, right? Heh, shows what I know. 

So in a rare moment. How does one know the school is teaching the kids properly? I'm not interested in shelling out cash to a school willing to "advance" someone just because they pay the money. I understand it's a good idea to let the kid pick the school, but if (s)he picks a school that does a lot of cracker eating, it's kind of pointless to send them. 

[EightBySix]

There's another angle here. Whether or not a kid finds him/herself needing to use their skills, the fact that they could if they needed to gives them a confidence. I think this kind of confidence means they are less likely to be bullied/picked on in the first place.

[danny_galaga]

There's another angle here. Whether or not a kid finds him/herself needing to use their skills, the fact that they could if they needed to gives them a confidence. I think this kind of confidence means they are less likely to be bullied/picked on in the first place.

Possibly. But i couldn't fight my way out of a wet paper bag, and i virtually never got bullied or picked on in school. In real life I'm a below the radar kinda guy.

[EightBySix]

Possibly. But i couldn't fight my way out of a wet paper bag, and i virtually never got bullied or picked on in school. In real life I'm a below the radar kinda guy.

Same here. I wonder if that's something most forum members have in common - growing up in arcades... Happier in front of Starwars cabs than fights in the playground...

[ChadTower]

Victims don't choose to be bullied.  Maybe the primary reason you guys didn't get bullied is just the luck of not having been chosen.  I moved around a lot as a kid, had an accent, and was on the smallish side.  I got chosen a few times.  I was never bullied more than once or twice by the same kid, though, because I was willing to take a beating to prove I was a very difficult target.  Won some fights, lost some fights.  Nothing a bully did to me was going to be as bad as stuff I had been through at home so I wasn't afraid to get the confrontation over with.

That said, my kids don't have any issues like that, I'm just looking for positive things to add to their lives.

[Dexter]

Chad,

I used to be a Tae Kwon Do instructor and trained kids from 4 to 12 years of age. It is absolutely the best thing you can do for them. It teaches discipline, teamworking and respect, as well as the obvious physical benefits. We'd frequently teach 'trouble' kids as well as regular ones, all kinds really. Very rewarding from a personal standpoint, but seriously, DO IT!

By the way I'm not an expert on the other styles, but where Tae Kwon Do is involved there are two main types. ITF is a more militaristic/traditional style (think north korean soldiers in pyongyang square) whereas WTF is the olympic/sporty one.

[ChadTower]

Thanks for the tip... most of the teachers I have asked have all said the same thing.  Don't choose an art, choose a teacher.  A great teacher in an art other than your initial preference is always better than a mediocre teacher to start with, I'm told.

[shardian]

Chad,

I used to be a Tae Kwon Do instructor and trained kids from 4 to 12 years of age. It is absolutely the best thing you can do for them. It teaches discipline, teamworking and respect, as well as the obvious physical benefits. We'd frequently teach 'trouble' kids as well as regular ones, all kinds really. Very rewarding from a personal standpoint, but seriously, DO IT!

By the way I'm not an expert on the other styles, but where Tae Kwon Do is involved there are two main types. ITF is a more militaristic/traditional style (think north korean soldiers in pyongyang square) whereas WTF is the olympic/sporty one.

I agree with this...depending on the teacher. My instructor was a punk. I wouldn't have put my young Child with him. However, we tested in Charleston at a Grand Master's studio. That was fun! I had to come on a make-up day for a belt test one time. It was intimidating because I tested privately with the Grand Master himself!
Before my test, I got to watch him instruct his class. There were several 4-5 year olds he worked with personally. He was amazing with them. So, I would observe a few classes to see how the instructor works with younger kids before even bringing your kids for a test run.

[shmokes]

Most of the kids I knew who were in martial arts were more likely to get bullied.  And the martial arts training didn't help in the slightest.  If you don't want your kid to be bullied, get them in soccer and football and basketball and baseball early.  Make sure they are not awkward in sports.  If you don't want your kid to be bullied I think it will be much more effective to help them learn to excel socially, fit in with others, etc., than to teach them how to lay the beat down.  And, in reality, your kids are probably never going to use their karate skills to lay the beat down on anybody outside the controlled environment of a dojo or whatever.

Seriously . . . marital arts is a sport dominated by the uncool.  If you don't want your kid to be bullied, help him be cool.  Don't put him in a sport that only serves to single him out as the weird kid.  When he gets picked last for baseball at recess, no amount of karate chopping is going to make him feel better about that.  And it is this social awkwardness more than anything that will make him the target of bullies.  And it is this social awkwardness, rather than some deficiency in self-defense skills, that will give him a lack of self-confidence (which will probably also keep him from actually testing his mettle against any real bully).

Ya know . . . maybe martial arts is fine.  But it's kind of goofy and useless.  Put your kid in mainstream sports.  Hell . . . put him in plain old boxing.  But don't put him in tai kwon do or kung fu or chai tea.  At the very least don't do it in lieu of useful things.  Even if everything pans out exactly according to plan, and the school bully comes after him, only to have his ass handed to him by your little karate champ, your kid's still going to be the weird kid. He's not going to be a hero.  He's not going to gain friends.  The hero is the kid that runs down the fly ball and then get's it back to first base for a double.  That kid doesn't get bullied.  That kid gets the girls.

Don't fight your childhood demons vicariously.  

edit: spelling

[shmokes]

I don't mean singled out for being in karate.  They will be singled out for not being good at cool things.  They will be singled out for being the Star Wars kid.

[ChadTower]

Maybe I had a different experience as a kid, but I did tae kwon do a couple years and I always had classmates that did martial arts... I don't recall any of them being singled out for it, but I don't recall any of them doing the "I'm tough because I know karate!" routine.

I saw a black belt friend get "bullied" once because the dude knew he wasn't going to do anything.  Here bullying pretty much consisted of getting in his face and egging him on if you want to call that bullying.  The guy sure as hell wasn't going to touch him. Standing there smirking at someone isn't exactly humiliating.

The point of the thread, until bullying was brought up, didn't have anything to do with avoiding bullies.  It just sort of went there because that's the primary purpose a lot of people see for the martial arts.  It interests me for my kids as a positive lifestyle through fitness, confidence, accomplishment, and discipline.  It isn't an alternative to traditional sports unless they would make that choice themselves.

Actually, my older son already made that choice, and part of what I'm doing is finding him that alternative.

[shardian]

I only knew one guy who did the "I'm tough because I do Tae Kwon Doe"...he really was tough though.

[Grasshopper]

Most of the kids I knew who were in martial arts were more likely to get bullied.  And the martial arts training didn't help in the slightest.  If you don't want your kid to be bullied, get them in soccer and football and basketball and baseball early.  Make sure they are not awkward in sports.

Well that's fine if the kid already has an interest in those sports. But if you're asking the kid to do things he's not really interested in, or doesn't even like, just to fit in and minimise the possibility of being bullied then that's sending out a really bad message. You're essentially saying that the problem lies not with the bully but with the bully's victim. It's a form of appeasement and in the long run will probably do just as much harm to the kid's self esteem as being bullied.

As the slightly sinister Japanese saying goes - The nail that sticks out gets hammered in. Is that the type of value you want to promote?

I believe it's more constructive to encourage kids to be themselves and participate in activities they actually enjoy. And if that happens to lead to bullying then just encourage them to stand up for themselves.

[jamesjones626]

i would say to put your kid in either a muay thai class or a boxing class if your looking for a martial art thats practicly in a real life fight.  Aikido and such doesnt really do much on the streets.  Wrestling or a bjj is cool too though.

[Grasshopper]

i would say to put your kid in either a muay thai class or a boxing class if your looking for a martial art thats practicly in a real life fight.  Aikido and such doesnt really do much on the streets.  Wrestling or a bjj is cool too though.

I agree. The vast majority of martial arts classes won’t make you into a better fighter. If that’s a kid’s primary motivation then he’s going to end up disappointed. Most classes, and especially the ones aimed at kids, will only allow semi-contact sparring to take place for safety reasons, and some don’t allow any contact at all.

It doesn’t matter how effective the chosen martial art is, or how good the instructor is, simply punching the air and memorising martial arts moves will only take you so far. It might make you fitter, more disciplined etc. but if you want to be a better fighter then there’s no substitute for full contact sparring. If you’re not used to the sensation of being hit and reacting to another person then you’re going to be useless in a real fight.

[Xiaou2]

Muay Thai teaches  "slow-as-heck"  but powerful kicks.  The problem is... nobody with
any skill will let you kick them like that.    At least with TKD, you will get better kicking
ability.

 Boxing teaches you how to get hit in the head hundreds of times over the course of
a few minutes time.

 They at least build up the persons internal toughness...


 Akido is purely defensive.  Meaning, its only really going to work well against someone who
Really wants to take you out... not someone who picks jabs at you.  IE: Full power,
Full committal.   In such a case, Akido becomes dangerous.

 Wing Chun on the other hand.. is much more adaptive to multiple combat modes.  From
the jabbers, to full commital moves, and also encourages the artists to be Offensive
rather than merely passive or defensive.  However, it does not really have non-aggressive
moves like Akido's many joint locks.  Its also not very often you can find a school that teaches
younger kids this style.  (I personally started at age 20)

 Tai Chi has "Chi Na" locks  (among many other great things)... but not many people teach the
combat version of Tai Chi... And, many people just do not have the patience for developing and learning Tai Chi.

 
 Unlike boxing, in WC, you learn to redirect incoming attacks.  Boxing's Slips are not very
safe - and the footwork alone isnt conductive to real combat.

 BJJ has nothing to defend against a good striker.   Their tactics usually involve a very risky
entry in order to get the advantage.

 Wrestling doesnt really teach combat at all.


 All that said..  whatever someone does, will gain advantages.  Such as getting a very strong
internal muscles from wrestling / bjj.  Or a very strong punch from boxing.

 
 Merely for the comment from James, I will say that after developing WC, I was taking on
fighters from multiple styles, over 2x my mass, and making them look bad.   
WC is probably one of the most street effective arts - IF - the person develops it properly.

[Vamp RN]

I spent about 6 years of my childhood going to Tae Kwon Do class. It was a really great experience.  As soon as my daughter gets a little older I think that she will start.  She already asks me all the time about it, but I want to wait until she is about 9 or so.  It is great for self discipline, confidence, health, and is just a whole lot of fun. 

[Hoopz]

There are a number of things that children can do to help with discipline, confidence, trust, teamwork etc.  More than 90% of what they can learn and experience is guided by the adults involved.  Good instructors, volunteers, coaches etc are the key.  

I'm sure we've all experienced bad coaches/adult leaders to some degree.  Finding the right one will make all the difference.  Whatever discipline you choose will end up being the "right" one if the instructor excels.

I doubt anyone who had a great experience will say that they had a bad coach/instructor yet had a great experience.  Generally, it's the other way:  bad adult leader=bad experience. 

Well, our resident naysayer and expert on everything will chime in that he excelled despite a bad leader because of how great he is.   

Just my two cents.

[shmokes]

Well that's fine if the kid already has an interest in those sports. But if you're asking the kid to do things he's not really interested in, or doesn't even like, just to fit in and minimise the possibility of being bullied then that's sending out a really bad message.

Not really.  They're important skills, and when your kid gets into high school and looks like a retard in gym class and is constantly embarrassed he will very much regret that you were so kind and understanding and left everything up to him as a kid.  When he gets into college and his friends are playing rec softball or soccer and need another player but he is too embarrassed to get on the team he will wish he had a little bit of encouragement when he was just a dumb kid.  Your kid very likely would just as soon not learn math or grammar either, but you're not going to let him just play videogames instead simply because he enjoys one and not the other. 

In the beginning my daughter hated her swimming classes.  Should I have found something that she liked better rather than insisting that she continue with it (she absolutely loves them now, btw)?

[ChadTower]

There is a lot of ground between being the star running back and being "a retard in gym class", shmokes.

Am I the only one who finds his phrasing more revealing than anything else?

[SavannahLion]

Shmokes, while I agree with you on a lot of points. Martial arts isn't truly interesting until they get to be adults, the thing I'm after is that I want my kid to come home at the end of the day. The oldest only has to travel four blocks to get to school but those four blocks are far more harrowing than the ten miles it took for me to travel from my old home to my old school.

Jaycee Dugard's kidnapping wasn't that far from my old home and it's precisely the sort of thing I want to avoid. Especially since the kid just doesn't get it. To her, Dugard is just a character on TV, like Hanna Montana.

After a lot of thought, maybe martial arts isn't the answer. Perhaps urban survival training of some sort?

edit: fixed bad code

[shmokes]

There is a lot of ground between being the star running back and being "a retard in gym class", shmokes.

Maybe, but there's a helluva lot more ground between air punch/kick dances and putting that stuff to use in real life the way it is portrayed in movies.  An infinite amount of ground, in fact, because your kid may just as well aspire to become as powerful as Dumbledore.  Your kids don't realize that no matter how much they train, even if they become the best in the world, they will never fight like the people in The Matrix and Bloodsport, etc..   

Although I thought it would be awesome to be able to fight like Van Damm as a kid, I've never been in a martial arts class.  I did know a few kids who were, though, and all of them were the types who were completely inept at recess and later at gym class. 

And Savannah, if martial arts is unlikely to keep your kid from being bullied by other kids (it is), it's not going to stop an adult from abducting her.  Do you really think that 11-year-old Jaycee Dugard would have been fine if only she knew karate?  Are you joking?

[ChadTower]

...of course, there is a whole lot more to martial arts than the ability to fight, as people keep saying over and over again.

I don't know what kids who have been studying a martial art well don't have carryover.  Every kid I knew grewing up that did was stronger, had strong flexibility, strong balance, and strong focus.  They were usually really good teammates, too, because they had respect for the sport. 

Exactly what part of physical training made up of coordination, flexibility, and focus makes one inept at kickball, shmokes?

[shmokes]

The lack of playing kickball.

[Grasshopper]

Shmokes, I don't know where you're getting this idea that learning martial arts somehow prevents a kid from learning and potentially being good at football, basketball etc. Why not just introduce the kid to a range of sports (including the aforementioned) and let him (or her) decide which sport (if any) he wishes to pursue. If you refuse to allow your kid to try martial arts just because it doesn't fit in with some arbitrary notion of what you consider to be cool then you're potentially depriving the kid of a source of pleasure in adult life.

I don't accept the analogy with maths and grammar. You need those things to get a half decent job these days. However, being good at football and other sports is completely useless once you're an adult unless you happen to belong to the 0.01% of the population who is a professional athlete.

And why are you singling out martial arts for special attention? You could quite easily discourage a kid from playing video games on the grounds that many people consider it to be a nerdy hobby. Tennis also has a major image problem. Many people think it's a sport for spoilt pampered rich brats, and indeed there's some truth in that. But so what? It's still a sport that many people, including myself, enjoy playing and watching.

Ultimately, you don't need to justify your hobbies to other people. If they provide you with pleasure then it really doesn't matter what other people think.

[Xiaou2]

 I didnt start learning the arts till age 20.

 In school, I was weak, feeble, and clumsy.  I was the kid they picked last in gym class.

 After less than a year of the arts... my body changed.  It became stronger, more durable.
I put on some muscle.  I went from being a blob of soft jello, feeling extreme pain
from a light punch... to a guy who could take a heavy punch and laugh about it.  My arms
and fist, heavily conditioned... are like Iron bars now.

 I became extremely coordinated and precise.  I had once been described as
"Graceful as a Cat", which surprised the heck out of me considering my past.
The arts actually improved my ability to play typical sports to boot.

 Heck... my last student said that his bowling scores jumped dramatically after he started
learning.  He was with me for about 6 months.


 And Yes, you can learn to fight like the Matrix, being that the moves in the Matrix are
mostly derived from Wing Chun.   Bloodsport is mostly simple kickboxing/karate.

 The difference between the movies and on the streets... is that usually
the opponent isnt trained, and the fight should not last more than a few seconds tops.

 Two very good 'trained' fighters however, may extend this time considerably.


 I have no idea about child level arts however.   A good teacher and class Should make the
kids better skilled at anything they do.   If that isnt the case, then either the teacher is
poor... or the student isnt very dedicated...  or they simply do not put much pressure on the
kids to do well - probably because fear of lawsuits.

[saint]

That's nice, but you still sleep alone.

Dude, is it your ambition in life to be a kneebiter everywhere you go?

[SavannahLion]

And Savannah, if martial arts is unlikely to keep your kid from being bullied by other kids (it is), it's not going to stop an adult from abducting her.  Do you really think that 11-year-old Jaycee Dugard would have been fine if only she knew karate?  Are you joking?

I had this nice long post and the cat hit the keyboard. 

I'll just mince my words.

Not exactly, it would take special kid to fend off a 250lb man. I'm thinking teaching the kid some kind of combat skill would give her enough care and common sense to avoid situations like Dugard, or if she does find herself in that situation, enough wits to get herself out of it. I'm thinking having a couple of flying fists or feet headed her way would teach her to keep her eyeballs peeled and to keep out of nasty situations.

I guess it's cruel, but I imagine having some weird ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?--- rape her ten times over and leave her body to rot is probably a lot worse.

[ChadTower]

I had this nice long post and the cat hit the keyboard. 

You pussied out.

[shmokes]

Shmokes, I don't know where you're getting this idea that learning martial arts somehow prevents a kid from learning and potentially being good at football, basketball etc.

Of course, it doesn't technically prevent it.  That is just the reality more often than not.  I think that most parents who put their kids in martial arts (Chad notwithstanding) are not interested in, or don't have the time/resources to, put their kid in a wide range of sports.  Moreover, they are often not putting their kids in martial arts to learn to play well with others, but rather to learn how to physically defend themselves from others.  

And in fact the skills you learn in martial arts are not nearly as transferable to other sports than those learned in mainstream sports.  Videogames develop eye-hand coordination.  If you took your kid to work all summer and had him moving bricks or hauling sandbags around, and then he came home and played videogames every night, he would get lean and strong and he might have great eye-hand coordination.  But he's not going to walk out on a baseball field and be a natural because of it.  Of course every little bit helps, but when your kids are playing soccer or baseball, learning to play together, handling balls, stop-and-go running, having an inner sense of the physics of ball movement, i.e., how far it will go when thrown/kicked/hit -- and especially how to adjust for things like making the ball reach the same destination in an arc rather than a line.  Many of these skills are highly transferable from one game to another.  

Obviously martial arts training builds muscle, flexibility and coordination, but so do all those other sports.  And, as Chad I'm sure will agree, sports do not cease to be important once you are an adult.  Many adults continue playing sports.  I'm only 31, but I think that counts as adult and I play sports with my friends regularly (mostly tennis and soccer now, but I often played football too up until a few years ago).    

BTW, Xiaou, you are now as graceful as a cat with arms like iron bars, but if you walk out on a basketball court or tennis court you're still nearly as awkward as ever, I imagine.  

edit: clarity

[shmokes]

You pussied out.

Somebody throw a tomato at this guy.   

[Xiaou2]

That's nice, but you still sleep alone.

 Ive been with my fair share of beauties.  Maybe I didnt marry... but I could be in
another relationship, if I chose it.  Unlike you, I dont have to expend efforts hiding
how much of an A** I am.


 And Shmokes,  Sorry... but you are way out off base with your Assumptions.

 It takes a lot more physical ability to a martial art like Wing Chun than it does to
play tennis, or swing a baseball bat.   In many sports, you build specific muscle sets,
and abilities.  In the arts, you have to build all muscle sets.
 
 - Flexibility
 - Speed
 - Power
 - Balance / Accurate Weight placement & recovery
 - Sensitivity
 - Fast coordination
 - Equal Accuracy / Power with all limbs
 - Endurance
 - No fear / Confidence
 - No Pain (reduced pain levels, and willpower to fight past pains)
 - Fluidity / Accurate Footwork & smooth movements

 All of these are sought after goals in a sport.   AND, a sport is less useful in life
than learning a martial art.

 ALSO, there is cooperation in the arts.  While there still are the occasional punks,
there are people who help each other out - to better each others skills.
And, some of these bullies quickly learn the power of the individual, and realize
its best not to tempt fate by being a pushy jerk... least they get buried at an
early age.

 And BTW - I can call out tons of instances where sport is Not about teamwork.. and
more about the individual.  Probably more examples of this than all of the arts combined.


 As for my sports performances "Now"... I would never say that I could go out there
and pick up a racket and challenge the worlds best.  What I am saying... is that if
I compared my ability to do that with and without martial arts training... you would
see that my performance would be over 90% improvement between them.

 Playing Basketball before... and I would have been tripping over my own feet.
It takes someone a lot of dedicated effort just to try to push me off balance now.

 And being that you have to throw techniques down perfect lines... you develop
very steady paths.  Such as in the example of my student getting better bowling scores,
because he can maintain straighter lines - for longer durations of time, even under stresses
of weight (ball) and circumstances.

 There are instances where you must be able to sense energy going from one direction
quickly to the other... with a feathers touch.   This could help a football player better stick to
his opposition, for example.  And reading footwork and intent of attack... could help lead to
better ability to read direction and intent on faints, jukes..etc... And give better ability to
stop or counter the event.

 
 Flexibility - Adds performance, as well as keeps an athlete (or normal lazy bum) from getting
injured easily.
 
 Speed - In reaction, and intended actions, needs no explanation of its importance.  These
quick-twitch muscle fibers are only developed when you train them specifically that way.

 

physics of ball movement, i.e., how far it will go when thrown/kicked/hit -- and especially how to adjust for things like making the ball reach the same destination in an arc rather than a line.  Many of these skills are highly transferable from one game to another.

 Ever pick up a pair of Nunchaka? Or even better.. The "Rope Dart" ?  heh   
You clearly do not understand the arts at all. Everything in the arts is about physics
and distances.  You have to account for your distance to the target, the target moving,
the depths of impact, and what will happen should the target vastly move, or move in a
different direction.

 There are straight lines, and hooking lines in kicks and punches.  One has to account
for these as well, in:  Throwing, intercepting, redirecting, evading, blocking..etc.

 You also do not realize how much you deal with mass.  When you hit someones head,
is completely different when you kick their chest.  And even more different if they
are resisting, or if they didnt see it coming.

 Being in full "Perfect" control of all your limbs... in Direction, Speed, Power, Braking...etc...
You gain better ability to do something like Shoot a basketball in the correct speed and
direction.  From your experience with distances, you gain better insight into depth perceptions,
timing, distances, mass effects..etc.

[shmokes]

"The arts" sound amazing, Xiaou.  I take back everything I said.  BTW, do you know the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique?  I would pay good money if you could teach me that.

[SavannahLion]

I had this nice long post and the cat hit the keyboard. 

You pussied out.

Duh! I live in a house with a 2 to 1 ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?--- ratio, I'm at a severe disadvantage.

[ChadTower]

The guys I played football with that were black belts were at a massive advantage.  They were damn near impossible to knock down without perfect tackling because of their balance.  They were very strong without being overmuscled.  Maybe more than anything else they were near unblockable on the line because of fantastic hand technique and leverage.  The martial arts training was an incredible asset in football.  The only other sport I saw transfer nearly as well was gymnastics.  The problem there was that those guys were all really small and that made up a lot of the difference. 

For those same guys, did that transfer to tennis?  No, not really.  tennis is a very specific skill.  How much of tennis skill transfers to every day life?  Very little, I'd say.  In all of the sports I ever played the only tennis skill I ever transferred was serving a tennis ball to serving a volleyball.  That really is similar, but other than that, tennis is a very isolated sport as are more stick-ball sports.  Hitting a baseball does not transfer to a golf ball or a hockey puck or vice versa.  In fact the mechanics of these sports conflict with each other.  I always had problems with keeping my front foot still in golf after 15 years of baseball.

Another thing just occurred to me as to why the martial arts may be a good choice for my older son.  He works very much at his own pace.  Some days that pace is fast, other days it is very slow.  That was a problem with him in team sports.  He has talent, was always one of the best hitters at his age, but his approach alienated teammates as he got older.  They didn't like the days where he didn't appear to care much and his defense would really suffer.  I brought this up with him a few times and gave him the choice of improving that or finding another sport - he chose another sport.  We spent a lot of this summer fishing and canoeing and hiking, which was great and a lot of fun, but he also needs something that is not so dependent on me to do 90% of the work.  He doesn't need the physical training nearly as much as he needs the mental training.

[saint]

"The arts" sound amazing, Xiaou.  I take back everything I said.  BTW, do you know the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique?  I would pay good money if you could teach me that.

I lack motivation to respond to you point by point, but in a nutshell in my experience you're really wrong on this one. Having played in my time football, baseball/softball, and coming to martial arts late in life in my mid-30's, I have to say I think Xiaou2 is pretty close to on target. My kids are martial arts students as well, but are also active in other sports. The martial arts have helped them develop physically and mentally and haven't led to them being shunned or singled out. My daughter is on the swim team as her main sport other than JuJitsu and is an excellent swimmer, as well as being active in band and a variety of other school extra-curricular activities. My son is active in soccer and is pretty good at it, with thoughts of going pro (he's 10, so take it with a grain of salt, but it's something he says he would like to do), and wants to pick up baseball next. My youngest is 6 so your concerns wouldn't be showing yet but he loves the martial art he takes (Kyukido).

edit - my daughter and son are brown belts, testing for black within the next year in JuJitsu. My daughter also takes Kyukido. My youngest son is a yellow-stripe (second belt) in Kyukido. My wife and I are brown belts testing in a few months (ack!) for black belt in JuJitsu, with low belts in Aikido, Hapkido, and Kyukido.

My kids don't seem unique as far as I can tell. The other students in the kids classes all seem to be active in other sports or other extra-curricular activities, are good students for the most part, and seem to have a good group of friends. There are the occasional loner kids, but the classes seem to be helping them with that problem, not causing it.

Dunno - I suspect either your direct experiences have been poor ones, or you have a misconception from mass media perhaps. Or perhaps my experiences have been the unique ones ... but I don't think that's the case. I think you're off-base here.

--- saint

[ChadTower]

saint, what is a reasonable picture of the financial commitment there?  That is 4 people with at least 3 of them studying multiple arts.  Ballpark is fine if you don't want to give specifics.  Feel free to decline to answer as well.

I haven't found a Jiu Jitsu school here that accepts anyone younger than a mid teen.  

[saint]

saint, what is a reasonable picture of the financial commitment there?  That is 4 people with at least 3 of them studying multiple arts.  Ballpark is fine if you don't want to give specifics.  Feel free to decline to answer as well.

I haven't found a Jiu Jitsu school here that accepts anyone younger than a mid teen.  

I don't mind talking finances but I honestly don't know, I'll have to check. The four of us taking JuJitsu do it at the YMCA. We are members so we get a discount but then we pay the membership fee so factor that in as you will. We pay $40/session, and they have six sessions per year. $240/student/year for JuJitsu, with a $20 fee for promotions.

The other arts we take are an "all-you-can-eat" deal at a dojo about 1/2 from us. Essentially we paid for taking Aikido for my wife and I. Because our ability to get there regularly was suspect, instead of paying for a length of time they gave us an alternative package where we paid for training up to a certain belt rank. Once we hit that rank, we have to pay again for the next set of belts. With that membership our kids are free, and while we are taking Aikido as our paid for art we can take any other classes the dojo offers as well. Our promotions in Aikido are paid for already as part of our membership, any promotions we receive in the other arts we have to pay for. It's a pretty good deal. I'll try to get the approximate costs when I'm home.

[ChadTower]

Hell that is a good deal.  I haven't run into anything like that around here.  I have seen combo discounts for multiple people but the lowest that has become is around $75/month/person.  I have not seen any schools that allow you to take an all you can eat approach, or if they have, they have not mentioned it during the sales pitch.

I'll check our Y schedule just in case but every time I have looked at it the adult schedule is very heavy with womens' classes and not much else.

[shmokes]

Shrug . . . I grew up in a fairly poor area.  Maybe the dynamics are different around there because of financial difficulties or just bad parenting.  Or maybe my sample is simply too small and not representative.  I still think that if you're only going to put your kid in one sport, martial arts is bad because I think learning mainstream sports is important.  And I think the idea that most people have of what is possible with martial arts is unrealistic and a bit goofy (thanks to fight choreography in movies).  If you're putting your kids in martial arts in addition to other things, it's fine.  If you're putting them in martial arts exclusively, that's too bad.  And if you're putting them in to protect them from bullies or kidnappers, that's just naive. 

[Xiaou2]

I still think that if you're only going to put your kid in one sport, martial arts is bad because I think learning mainstream sports is important.

 Why the heck is a mainstream sport important?!  Its a darn game.  Its not a career move.
There are plenty of people who put way too much value in a game which has a ball in it.

And I think the idea that most people have of what is possible with martial arts is unrealistic and a bit goofy (thanks to fight choreography in movies).  

 Considering how little experience you have, its no doubt why you think martial arts is
unrealistic.   There are plenty of artists that will prove you wrong any day of the week.

If you're putting them in martial arts exclusively, that's too bad.  

I would have gave Anything to have went into a martial arts class earlier in life, instead of the
crappy little league experience I had.

 I could have actually developed good skills, and spent more time in my later high school
years being Decent at gym sports.. instead of being the last picked kid.

And if you're putting them in to protect them from bullies or kidnappers, that's just naive.

 My buddies kid who is learning Akido, has been approached by bullies a few times.  Both times,
he made the bullies look like fools... and they no longer mess with him.

 As for stalker/kidnappers... thats a whole other ballgame.  All I can say, is that a kid with
martial arts training and spirit, will stand a better chance to get away, than one who does not.
It will also lead to them having a better awareness of the dangers, as well as a better
awareness of the people around them, and the surrounding environment.

 

BTW, do you know the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique?  I would pay good money if you could teach me that.

 I know the closest thing to it.  It called  "FaJin" ,in English:   "Explosive Power".

 Bruce Lee popularized it via a demonstration called the " One Inch Punch ".   However, it was the
highest secret of most Chinese arts.  Most especially, Tai Chi & Wing Chun.  (Although, not all
WC people develop this to very extreme levels)

 I had developed it to the point were I could easily knock a person out (a person who
deserved it)  with less than 6" distance from my fist to their forehead, with mma gloves on, and maybe only 30% power level used.  I could do this at Any time I chose, Easily.  (unlike a boxer
who "Might" score a KO once every 90 shots)

 Most people see the 1" punch, and imitate the movement as a push.  However, the real
power version will not move the person back much at all.  Instead, his internals will be
rocked with so much force... that it can rupture organs.
 
 The technique itself is more like a sneeze.  A controlled spasm of loose muscle, tightening
in certain sequence, all done in Fractions of Seconds.  Off by a fraction, and you may lose up
to 3/4 of the power output.  To the spectator, they may not even see it happen... or not think
much happened from it.  However, the person who is hit, will tell a different story.

 Fajin  is probably where the "Death Touch" myth came about.   As to the outside observer,
it would look like the master simply poked the opposition lightly.   When instead, the masters
entire body mass, traveling at like 400mph, will travel from foot, to hip, to arm, to finger... and
deep into the opponents organ or vein.   The force causing a rupture... which either killed the Op
instantly... or within a few days (depending on the severity of the internal bleeding).

 Most people would never believe this possible... And for most, thats true... As developing
good levels of Fajin takes a lot of dedicated and specialized training efforts.  Its not simple and
intuitive like a typical punch.

 You can get a slight idea of the power from watching a master like Chen Xiaowang  perform.
Watch as when he tightens... his whole body ripples with extra powerful waves of energy.
His legs even rippling from the forces generated.

 Ive been told that this Master has done a Zero inch demo to a guy once... with merely his
shoulder touching a person.  With a quick twitch, he managed to break the ribs of the
person being demo'd on.


 Also, I have read that certain Shaolin practitioners used a method called Poison Hand.  Where
they soaked their hands in something like Scorpion venom.  They supposedly had been given an
antidote - to keep the stuff from effecting themselves.. but a few strong pokes to an attacker...
could be really bad.   I have no idea if this is true.  It could have been trickery, such as they
merely attached a poison needed to a finger... or a poison soaked cloth..etc.  Or, it could be
entirely fabricated...    However, Fajin is the real deal.  It can turn an 80lb woman, into a lethal
machine, capable of taking out anyone, of any size.

[shmokes]

Saint?  Surely you don't think that I'm coming completely from left-field on this?

[Xiaou2]

 I believe Saint would investigate before making a blind assumption...

 There is information available about Fajin, and people who have developed or
felt it from a master.

 There are also hints of it, and its training methods in Bruce Lees writings.
And some more revealed by one of his students After lee passed away:

http://www.amazon.com/Bruce-Lees-Inch-Power-Punch/dp/0918642027/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257215976&sr=1-1


More?
"His volunteer was Bob Baker of Stockton, California. "I told Bruce not to do this type of demonstration again", he recalled. "When he punched me that last time, I had to stay home from work because the pain in my chest was unbearable."[61]"


http://www.martialtaichi.co.uk/articles/fajin.php

[saint]

Saint?  Surely you don't think that I'm coming completely from left-field on this?

No, not at all. I thought you were incorrectly dismissive of the value of martial arts. I concur whole-heartedly that there is a tremendous value in team sports. As a social activity, team sports such as baseball or football or basketball will serve you well in life more so than martial arts. At company picnics, you play softball. You don't throw each other around on the mat. On the other hand, when someone at the picnic has too much beer and picks a fight with you, martial arts will let you stop him with as much or as little force as you deem necessary, protecting not only you and your loved ones but also the drunk from his own actions.

I have my kids in both martial arts and team sports and non-physical extracurricular activities.

[Xiaou2]

 To counter...

   Just because a person learns a martial art, does not mean they are incapable of
teamwork, friendship, etc.   You dont have to play a sport to learn these things.

 In fact, there are plenty of instances were playing a sport badly, can cause
traumatic results.   As was my case.  Being picked on, pushed around, made fun
of, and made to feel worthless and inferior.

 I have friends, and have no problem making more.  And no, I dont go round
throwing people round at outings      (unless they ask for that     )

 I respect anyone's decisions to enroll their kids in sports, and heck I even liked
playing some of them even if I wasnt good at them... but you cant tell me that only
learning and art is damaging.  That simply is not true.

[shmokes]

Saint?  Surely you don't think that I'm coming completely from left-field on this?

No, not at all.

My comment was largely a response to the Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon stuff in Xiaou's post before mine.  Of course I believe that studying and practicing martial arts can make a person a better fighter.  I've seen UFC.  But UFC is what it's like.  The Matrix is not what it's like.  Children, and Xiaou, have this backwards.  But, whatever.  I suppose thinking that you will grow up and be able to catch poison darts out of mid-air with chopsticks or balance weightlessly on the tip of a sword held in someone's outstretched arm is no more unrealistic than dreaming of playing in the NBA.  Well, of course it is infinitely more unrealistic since you have impossibility on the one hand and (very low) probability on the other.  But anyway . . . yeah, as I said, many people have an unrealistic and a bit goofy idea of what is possible with martial arts.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is usefulness.  If martial arts were what as they are portrayed in popular media, I would ask where to sign up.  But they're not.  And in my admittedly limited experience they do not save kids from bullies.  And I just think that there are better options out there, at least if you're going to put your kid in only one sport.  Swimming, for example.  You said your daughter swims.  THAT's one that fits Chad's suspicions about me.  I didn't learn to swim till I was 10 or 11, when I finally had lessons one summer.  I have always been a weak swimmer, and even after lessons later in life and quite a lot of practice as an adult, I cannot swim long distances.  Four laps at my university's pool tucker me out completely but I see other swimmers go for 50, including people who aren't in nearly as good shape as me.  I REALLY wish my parents had got me swimming earlier. 

In the end, I think that martial arts don't provide what many parents and children are looking for (cure for bullying and magical powers, respectively).  I think being good at mainstream sports often goes a long way to curing bullying because it helps kids be cool and fit in, and nothing builds confidence like being cool, and nothing cures bullying like confidence and being cool. 

[Xiaou2]

I've seen UFC.  But UFC is what it's like.

 

 - No.  UFC is useless slop compared to Good martial artists training.

The Matrix is not what it's like.  Children, and Xiaou, have this backwards.

 - Ive plenty of people to vouch for what Ive accomplished in the martial arts,
and how I maintained traditional form instead of Bunny Hopping slop.

  But, whatever.  I suppose thinking that you will grow up and be able to catch poison darts out of mid-air with chopsticks or balance weightlessly on the tip of a sword held in someone's outstretched arm is no more unrealistic than dreaming of playing in the NBA.

 - Umm.. I punch and kick hard.  I dont do magic.  I train on wall mounted sand bags,
and a 10lb bad filled with Steel BBs.  It called Realism.   Training on a heavy bag isnt
realistic.  They are too "Gushy".     I also kick 4" diameter  3mm thick steel pipes.
These are realistic tools for real Combat situations. IE: A Need to break a leg real fast...

 Unlike MMA, I train to Parry, Redirect, Block.  Amazing Magic ehh?   

 

Well, of course it is infinitely more unrealistic since you have impossibility on the one hand and (very low) probability on the other.  But anyway . . . yeah, as I said, many people have an unrealistic and a bit goofy idea of what is possible with martial arts.

 - Ohh, considering Ive fought many sparring matches against many various
arts, I think I know a LOT more about them than your uneducated Ideas.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is usefulness.  If martial arts were what as they are portrayed in popular media, I would ask where to sign up.  But they're not.

 -  Your girl friend being grasped by a guy right in front of you by a punk or two.
A belligerent drunk who pushes or swings at you.  A terrorist on an Airplane...
A guy beating a child up in the middle of the street...   What will you do?  And will it
be too late???

 But more importantly...

  I can tell you almost immediately, that when you are walking down
the city streets and or a darkly lit parking lot.. you are feeling nervous and maybe
even scared.   When some punk gets rambunctious in a public area... you cower,
run, and your heart feels like it will explode from your chest. 

 I dont have that feeling anymore.  And if I had been in school without that feeling...
I may have been more at ease, with my mind more focused on school work instead
of the next bullying.

And in my admittedly limited experience they do not save kids from bullies.

 

 Already refuted.  Bullies like to pick on the weak, as they are Easy targets.  A Bully is
a spineless soulless person.   They sink to the lowest levels.   Proof of this can
be found all over the place.

  And I just think that there are better options out there, at least if you're going to put your kid in only one sport.  Swimming, for example. 

 - Swimming takes a while to learn.  For most of us, its not a sporting event.  Its something they do in gym class every so often, and something you do in the summer to keep cool and have fun.

 I learned it late in school, but I learned it.  I still had plenty of time to learn the arts.
In fact, much more time.. as finding an open pool isnt always easy to do.  Nor not
always what you want to do often.

In the end, I think that martial arts don't provide what many parents and children are looking for (cure for bullying and magical powers, respectively). 

 Martial arts bring focus and awareness to children on a level that typical sports just
can not compare with.  As the arts are so much more complex, and are "Self" related.
As such, this inner awareness soon spreads outwards as well.   I suspect it forms
higher intellect levels as well.. especially when taught young.

 The lessons teach Willpower.  Triumph through hard work and dedication.  They
Instill confidence like nothing else does.  They quiet the noisy mind... leaving more
room for concentration and focus on school work.  And so much more.  Sorry... but
playing football just doesnt reach this level of returns.

I think being good at mainstream sports often goes a long way to curing bullying because it helps kids be cool and fit in,

 Wrong.  I played little league, and was horrible.  I was hated just as much as before...
if not even more so... for ruining the teams chances.

 

and nothing builds confidence like being cool, and nothing cures bullying like confidence and being cool.

 You certainly are not cool...

 And again, I can vouch this as false.  If you are bad at a sport, you will not be
considered Cool.  And no matter if you did make a good catch or something... the
Bully does not care.  They still see you as the weak target with brilliant past history
of laughable moments.

 Im not saying martial arts can always solve a bully problem.  However, it can help
considerably to build up a "dont mess with him"  rep. 

 I noticed a big difference in treatment when I told people that I had training in
the arts.  Respect level.  Some were even a little fearful / nervous.  Others felt safer
in my company. Few occasions asked for my assistance in a situation (sister needing
help moving out from Ex bf place).  Some are amazed at what Ive shown them,
and wish they had the ability themselves.  Many get excited to see demos,
and or want me to show their children some things.  Some beg for lessons.
 
 Few people have ever challenged me, knowing what I do.  Usually only a few
drunks, to which I laugh off.   The few others Ive talked down from fighting... However,
I didnt feel threatened because of the arts, and I stood a better change had
talking failed.

 
 Being that the Arts is about self perfection.. you grow much faster than in a typical
sport.  Your progress is not mocked or degraded.  You gain progress quickly, and
can see those results clearly.  You gain confidence in yourself, By yourself,.. not from
other peoples opinions of you.  There is no better confidence builder I know... and I
couldnt tell you anything else that teaches the value of hard work, as well as the
morals (Mercy, Code of conduct...) ... and value of life, and meaning of death.

[ChadTower]

Distance swimming is very hard.  Those people who swim 50 laps without a problem took a long time and practice to get to that point.  Just the conditioning to do that is very impressive.  The technique for distance is not easy for even someone like a lifeguard to get right without hours upon hours of practice.  Trust me, I learned the hard way training for that race, even someone who swims very well is going to get slapped hard with the reality of distance swimming.  I only got to the point where I could do it but was horribly slow and I was only training for a half mile swim portion.

Comparing the average person's participation in a martial art with the UFC or a movie is just ignorant of what they are really doing.  While you're at it you may as well give up on football since none of us will ever be Adrian Peterson or Paul Crewe.

[shardian]

Distance swimming is very hard.  Those people who swim 50 laps without a problem took a long time and practice to get to that point.  Just the conditioning to do that is very impressive.  The technique for distance is not easy for even someone like a lifeguard to get right without hours upon hours of practice.  Trust me, I learned the hard way training for that race, even someone who swims very well is going to get slapped hard with the reality of distance swimming.  I only got to the point where I could do it but was horribly slow and I was only training for a half mile swim portion.

The swim team is usually practicing in the big pool while we have our toddler in the family pool at the YMCA. I find it fascinating to see how people can swim non-stop like that. I've seen a few of the high school/ college level swimmers get in there and go full out non-stop for a 20-30 minutes! I'm a pretty good swimmer, but I apparently have 'short distance' form (and I'm fat). I do a handful of laps and am about ready to die of exhaustion. It was the same way even back when I was in shape to the point of being able to run a few miles non-stop. I still could only swim a few laps before my arms/legs locked up.

I would LOVE to learn how to do that, and it sucks that swimming was not available to me when I was a kid. I hope to put my daughter in the swim program at the Y when she is around 4.

I would choose soccer/swimming over any other sport at this point. The last choice I would put her in is baseball/softball.

[shmokes]

I'm not comparing the average person's participation with UFC or a movie.  I'm saying that UFC represents something that is theoretically obtainable, while the movie does not.  So UFC is more like the NBA.  

My point was that the things kids think they can learn with martial arts training are often total ---smurf-poop---.  And it's not really ignorance that causes them to have these ideas, except in the strictest sense of the word.  It's just typical childhood dreaming combined with a consistently fantastical representation of martial arts in the media.

Also . . . trust me, I'm not just comparing myself to the swim nuts.  I'm really a comparatively weak swimmer to the average person, and I have found myself on more than one occasion having to sit something out, like when I'm at a small lake with my friends and a bunch decide to swim across the lake.  But I'm like you.  Running a few miles is no problem for me.  But I'll be damned if swimming doesn't just kick ---my bottom---.

By the way, there's no need to wait.  My little girl just turned 3 in August and she's already diving for rings and she can swim with her face in the water and then roll onto her back after every 4 strokes for air.  I'm astounded at how early they are able to learn.  Also, I agree about soccer.  I think it's the most useful in terms of training skills applicable to every sport, and it's also one that can realistically be started much earlier than a lot of the others because the basic concept is easy.

[ChadTower]

I was always bored with soccer.  Really, really bored.  It wasn't much different than plain running.  Every instinct I had when approaching the guy with the ball screamed knock him on his ass.  I was much better suited to hockey and football.

[shmokes]

or martial arts

[saint]

My comment was largely a response to the Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon stuff in Xiaou's post before mine.  Of course I believe that studying and practicing martial arts can make a person a better fighter.  I've seen UFC.  But UFC is what it's like.  The Matrix is not what it's like.  Children, and Xiaou, have this backwards.  But, whatever.  I suppose thinking that you will grow up and be able to catch poison darts out of mid-air with chopsticks or balance weightlessly on the tip of a sword held in someone's outstretched arm is no more unrealistic than dreaming of playing in the NBA.  Well, of course it is infinitely more unrealistic since you have impossibility on the one hand and (very low) probability on the other.  But anyway . . . yeah, as I said, many people have an unrealistic and a bit goofy idea of what is possible with martial arts.

I don't know of *anyone* in the various dojos I've been in who thinks like this. I have seen some pretty incredible things. I'm a 41 year old man who started martial arts in his mid 30's, and I can do handstands, flips in the air, cartwheels, and can clear 8' in a dive roll without touching the ground (not an exaggeration by the way, we measured) -- things I couldn't do before martial arts.

I've never met anyone who thinks martial arts will allow them to defy gravity, walk on trees, catch bullets with their teeth, or any other silly things, and I've only met a couple of folks who want to actually do MMC type of fighting.

I challenge your contention that many folks have an unrealistic and bit goofy idea of what's possible with martial arts. I suspect anyone who holds those kinds of ideas isn't actually a martial arts practitioner.

In the end, I think that martial arts don't provide what many parents and children are looking for (cure for bullying and magical powers, respectively).  I think being good at mainstream sports often goes a long way to curing bullying because it helps kids be cool and fit in, and nothing builds confidence like being cool, and nothing cures bullying like confidence and being cool. 

I think you're wrong about the impact of being a martial artist and your susceptibility to bullies. If nothing else martial arts builds self confidence and helps you avoid looking like a victim. Then, if you *are* picked on the ability to defend yourself is valuable. I could give you several stories of real life situations with real people (not uber-fighters, just regular folks with some martial arts training) using their martial arts to defuse a situation or to defend themselves or someone else.

[shardian]

That's about the same thing anyone who doesn't understand the game says...

I thought the same way until I took an 'easy A' soccer class in college, then played intramurals. I liked it as a kid (Tab Ramos FTW!), but I couldn't play locally. I LOVED it after getting to play with and against some actual talented folks.

Schmokes: We've had our daughter in the pool on a regular basis since she was 3 months old or so. We've been slacking lately though. They're real sticklers (read that as prudish morons) about flotation devices, which inhibits her from learning at the Y. While at a hotel pool recently, we put some arm floaties on her and she swam all over the pool on her own - jumping in and everything at 2.5 years. She wouldn't let anyone even touch her she was being so independent! Only thing they allow at the Y are those cumbersome built in float suits. They are useless, and I'd bet money she'd drown in one of those things if on her own the way they float her. We haven't been back to the Y since the hotel pool thing, so it will be interesting to see how she does. I fully expect her to be swimming laps in the family pool 2' end by the time she is 3.5

I was always bored with soccer.  Really, really bored.  It wasn't much different than plain running.  Every instinct I had when approaching the guy with the ball screamed knock him on his ass.  I was much better suited to hockey and football.

Soccer really just amazes me.  The ball is magnetic and attracts every player that's within 50 feet of it. 

Otherwise they stand around doing nothing.


All the way from little kids to professionals.


 

[saint]

That's about the same thing anyone who doesn't understand the game says...

I thought the same way until I took an 'easy A' soccer class in college, then played intramurals. I liked it as a kid (Tab Ramos FTW!), but I couldn't play locally. I LOVED it after getting to play with and against some actual talented folks.

True that! I've got a new appreciation for the game watching my son play through the years. A lot of strategy and tactics involved.

[saint]

Sure, and there's strategy and tactics in baseball, too.  It doesn't make that sport interesting.

No, but it does make this statement:

Soccer really just amazes me.  The ball is magnetic and attracts every player that's within 50 feet of it. 

Otherwise they stand around doing nothing.

All the way from little kids to professionals.

flat out wrong.

[ChadTower]

I appreciate the strategy and tactics in soccer.  I appreciate the strategy and tactics in golf too.  Don't want to play that either.

[shmokes]

Singling out soccer as magnetball doesn't even make any sense.  The same thing applies to every team sport.  You can't just have a clusterfuck of everybody scrambling for the ball like smear the queer or capture the flag.  That would leave the rest of the court/field wide open.  Of course only the players near the ball go after it.  The other players are minding their positions just like the goalie minds the goal rather than running across the field after the ball.   

[ChadTower]

Jim's soccer days

[Chadwick]

Chad, go spend some time on www.bullshido.net

It is a forum full of martial artists and instructors who try to sift the mystical BS from real, effective MA's.  They don't hold back either.  If a school/instructor/art is teaching or claiming something that is utter crap (which many do), they will call them out.  You will get the truth about any and all arts/instructors/schools there.

Use the search function to find threads about schools in your area or arts that are taught in your area.  Don't buy into the *bullshido*... get the truth.  Some of the styles heavily pimped in this thread are not anywhere near as effective as their practitioners would have you believe; they might look pretty, but pretty =/= effective.  Point sparring =/= effective.  Running compliant drills with your partner who is not resisting you =/= effective.   Any art that claims they have the REALLY REAL, super-secret, too deadly for MMA techniques is most likely bullshido.

Want to learn discipline, get in shape, build character, build self-esteem, build respect for others, make friends, have fun?.... just about any MA with a good instructor can provide this.

Want to learn to fight and defend yourself?
BJJ
Muay Thai
Judo
Boxing
Wrestling
Kyokushin Karate

That's not a complete list, but those are all good arts with no BS that will actually teach you how to fight.

[Xiaou2]

 The Mob squad speaketh.

 Funny, cause after a sparring visit to the local Kyokushin Karate place here...
the instructor wanted me to teach them some Wing Chun.

 Bullshido is just a bunch of kids with too much time on their hands, and nothing
better to do than to try to bash other arts with crappy and downright Wrong
arguments.

 

[Xiaou2]

 Its like this:

 Some people like to cook hamburgers.. cause its easy and fast, and fills your tummy.

 Some TRY to cook a Gormet meal, and fail many times in the process.

 The  Burgershidos  then  Bash the Gormets,  saying they cant cook for crap...
so their recipes must be useless.

 The thing is.. that the people who DO put in enough time and effort Can learn
to cook far better than anything the Burgershidos can make.

 
 So, it  "boils"  down to how much time and effort you want to expend... and what
kind of meal you want to end up with.


 Kungfu has a Lot more to learn and perfect, and not everyone has the time to
do so.  That does not mean it doesnt work well.  In fact, Ive proven its worth
many times over...  but then again, Im a dedicated and passionate person.
Not everyone is willing to stand on one leg in a bank while waiting.. so that the post
leg will be stable when you throw a powerful kick...

 

 

[Chadwick]

Clearly, you have THE REAL WING CHUN.

[shmokes]

Not everyone is willing to stand on one leg in a bank while waiting..
 

That kind of discipline is hard to find.

[ChadTower]

That kind of discipline is hard to find.

I don't think you find that discipline.  One either has it or does not.

I also don't think debating the street effectiveness of one martial art over another has any bearing at all on what I'm trying to do.  I'm not saying people here shouldn't be discussing it - it's a free thread - but I'm not looking to set my kids on a path to be Bruce Lee.  If they want to do that once they are old enough to make their own lifestyle decisions, cool, but I don't think the ability to end a fight in 3 seconds vs 30 seconds is part of the equation for an 8 year old.   

Something in the middle seems appropriate.  They don't need to be Jedi but they also don't need to be Cobra Kai.

[Hoopz]

Something in the middle seems appropriate.  They don't need to be Jedi but they also don't need to be Cobra Kai.

You can have gourmet hamburgers too.  Gourmet cooking isn't rocket science.  There's happy medium for most things like you're looking for.

[mpm32]

Ha Chad I take the blame for the thread going off the rails.  I posted about my experience with black belts when in fact it had nothing to do with the reason my daughter takes karate which is for the fun of it and not to kick someones azz.  And look where this thread went.

Sorry. 

[RayB]

[ChadTower]

See, he's way better than the star wars kid.   

[Chadwick]

Badass mullet anyway...

[shmokes]

Are you kidding?  You're thankful that you are not an ESPN commentator?  That job would be awesome!

[ChadTower]

Even ESPN2 is still just talking on TV about sports for a living.  Can't be THAT bad.

[shmokes]

Yeah, seriously.  It's like when people make fun of members of boy bands like nSync for being such fools.  But they're millionaire fools, which is more than I can say for, say, a fry cook.  I know which degrading job I would prefer. 

[ChadTower]

Might not be a good example... those guys don't make nearly as much as people think... all the money goes to the reps who signed them for pennies when they were random metrosexual teenagers.

[shmokes]

Yeah . . . it also depends, though.  Even entirely manufactured acts like nSync, Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears, etc., still end up sitting on a mountain of gold.  I know that less successful groups like 98 degrees might end up living large on the studio's dime during their heyday and then ending up with little in the bank, but I'm talking about the ones that it actually works out for.  And when it does, it really works out for them.  Of course the studio still pockets the majority, but even the small fraction of the revenue that they get to keep is still an enormous sum.

[Xiaou2]

You may consider Wushu for a childs introduction to the arts...and for
shear acrobatic and graceful abilities gained:

5yr old Wushu Girl



Wushu Boy



Wushu, is a form of Kungfu.  However, much of the power and realism has
been stripped away, and its more of a dance and acrobatics performance.
Still, there are many actual valid weapons and hand moves within each form.
These forms blow most TMA forms out of the water for shear depth of complexity.


 And for Shmokes, who thinks the Matrix style moves are unrealistic, here is a
decent drill that is done in WC at speed.  The good WC people can perform this stuff in a
live combat manor, without looking like a bad kickboxing or mma match.  The bad ones
simply need more practice.


 WARNING:  Master Wong Curses like a Drunken Sailor.   It will amuse !   heh

Decent WC Training & Concepts




Body unity for power



Training with Armor



Kicks, Energy Redirection & Short range Power

[shmokes]

LMAO, Xiaou, there's a reason I point to UFC as giving martial arts legitimacy.  You may as well be showing me WWE clips to legitimize wrestling.  Everything in those clips is staged.  It's choreographed.  Both people know what is coming from each other and they have collaborated beforehand.  It is exactly the same as The Matrix or Bloodsport.  The little girl is pretty cute, though. 

[ChadTower]

Xiaou2, I would never consider entering my kid in anything like that competition.

[shardian]

Xiaou2, I would never consider entering my kid in anything like that competition.

Huh? You wouldn't let your kid compete in a forms competition? I have a nice trophy sitting on my childhood memory shelf from winning 1st place forms in a regional tournament. Tournaments rule! Way more exhilarating than any other competitive sport I have ever competed in.

[ChadTower]

Huh? You wouldn't let your kid compete in a forms competition?

No, I wouldn't.  I'm not saying I disapprove of them.  I'm saying I have no desire to enter my kids in them. 

[Xiaou2]

Well, as you said, you were not looking to make your kids Bruce Lee, thus I provided an alternative idea.

 Wushu is like a dance class.   And like Dance classes, the students get
to show off what they have learned through great performances.

 Remember, its ultimately the kids choice... and most of them love
to perform what they have practiced.

 Interestingly enough, while many woman do not really get into real
combat arts... there are a lot of them interested and or practicing wushu.

 
 As for your comment Shmokes...  The drills prepare you for actual combat.
They make it so that your arms feel what is happening, and you make
the appropriate reactions based on your opponents energies.

 Its about taking up the spaces in the best manor to gain advantage.
About reading you ops next possible move.  About setting the op up,
such as when master wong shot a false blow, which made the guy block,
which allowed him the trap that hand and make a real hit without getting
hit himself.   Its much more than what can be descibred here.  But,
after you have gained real skill and proper reactions, Actual combat using
the moves Does in fact work.

 As for UCF, those guys are undertrained and sloppy.  The reason, is
they try to study too many things, and not perfect any of it.

[shardian]

Here's my 2 cents on MA for defense.

If I truly wanted to learn to defend myself, I would take a grappling based MA. There is a reason Jiu Jitsu has become the dominant MA for UFC fighting - it neutralizes all of the standing martial arts!

I would rather neutralize an opponent than break my fists on their face.

[RayB]

Shmokes, what often looks like choreographed moves is actually that the fighters are trained in how to move with a blow in order to avoid or minimize its impact. Like for example one fighter gets you in a wrist lock and attempts to throw you. You have to jump/roll into the throw otherwise just standing there, pulling, or trying to resist it = broken wrist.

[shmokes]

 As for your comment Shmokes...  The drills prepare you for actual combat.
They make it so that your arms feel what is happening, and you make
the appropriate reactions based on your opponents energies.

That's all well and good, Xiaou, except that you posted those videos to prove to me what is possible with MA, and the only thing you proved is that two guys can dance in front of a camera.  RayB, what you are saying may or may not be true, but regardless the videos Xiaou posted are staged demonstrations.  You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

[Chadwick]

 As for your comment Shmokes...  The drills prepare you for actual combat.
They make it so that your arms feel what is happening, and you make
the appropriate reactions based on your opponents energies.

That's all well and good, Xiaou, except that you posted those videos to prove to me what is possible with MA, and the only thing you proved is that two guys can dance in front of a camera.  RayB, what you are saying may or may not be true, but regardless the videos Xiaou posted are staged demonstrations.  You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

Exactly.

Drills don't prepare you for combat, COMBAT prepares you for combat... Boxers knock people out, chunners don't.  One good right cross or hook will knock someone out, chain punching won't.  You're comments about MMA are so delusional and/or willfully ignorant that I don't really have a comment beyond this: Where are all the awesome chunners in MMA?  Oh that's right.. The Chun is *too deadly* for MMA... ROFLMAO!

As for wrist-locks, they are good for subduing a drunk who is not serious about hurting you and that's about it.  No one ever has, or ever will end a fight with a wrist-lock.  Anyone trying to take your head off, under the influence of an adrenaline dump, is going to knock you the F out while you try to apply that wrist-lock... IF you can actually get your hands on their wrists to begin with, and IF you have a significant weight/size advantage.  I am ranked in Hapkido, so all you wrist-lock fans please try to piss on my leg and tell me it's raining... that ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- don't work on anything other than a compliant partner or a 10 year-old.

Some of you guys need to step back from the indoctrination and apply a little critical thinking.  Judo, Boxing, BJJ, Sambo, Muay Thai, these are the MA's that WORK and have PROVEN themselves in combat against non-compliant partners.  I've been involved with MA's since 1984.  I've seen and heard a lot of BS in that 25 years and I get tired of it.

I have an appreciation for all MA's, but what I don't like is people making claims about a system that are utterly laughable.  A couple years of the Chun or a couple years of Aikido aren't going to turn you into a fighter.  They do offer many many other benefits however.

You want to do Wing Chun?  I think that's fantastic, but don't separate from reality and think that you're going to be some great fighter after a couple years doing chi sao because you're not.

Wing Chun Tournament (Gold Medal Fights!):
Muay Thai Fights:

Who would you rather fight?

[Chadwick]

As for UCF, those guys are undertrained and sloppy.  The reason, is
they try to study too many things, and not perfect any of it.

Under-trained?  Most professional MMA fighters train 40-80 hours a week;  How many do you train?

Sloppy?  Compared to what?  Standing in a line doing punching drills in horse stance?  Have you ever seen a full speed, full contact wing chun fight?  It looks like sissy slap, tippy-tap horseplay.

Try to study too many things?  No they don't, they study what is PROVEN EFFECTIVE (MT, BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling mostly), and then only the techniques that are practical and effective.

Not perfect any of it?  I could spend 10 years perfecting a heel-hook kick... what good is it when someone takes me down?

[ChadTower]

I can't believe we have gotten this far without a single Wang Chung joke.

[Chadwick]

No offense but you showed an entire polite fight vs a highlight reel of professional fighting... I've watched a -little- kickboxing and there is a whole lot of soft kicks to push each other back with a little bit of explosive kicking and punching here and there.  Much like regular boxing with the jabs - it's not all haymakers.

You're right, I did, but you try to find me a video of someone doing Wing Chun at full speed/contact... you can't because it doesn't exist.  WC practitioners don't compete above the level shown in that video.  Most WC practitioners don't even spar beyond chi sao drills... this is the heart of the problem with WC.

I have never trained WC, but my son used to take Jow Ga at a school that also taught WC.  The kids Jow Ga class was at the same time as the adult advanced WC class and it was in the next room without a wall between them.  I watched WC twice a week for 8 months and maybe saw some type of sparring on 2 or 3 occasions.  I am an experienced martial artist so I knew what I was looking at/seeing and could hear the teachers explaining the techniques/system.  I was completely underwhelmed with what I saw... and the Sifu is a direct student of Ip Ching (son of Yip Man), Head of the International Wing Chun Martial Art Association, and personal interpreter for Ip Ching whenever he visits the United States; so you can't say that what i saw wasn't *the real Wing Chun*.

Additionally, every Friday at the school was open gym night.  The guys from the MT class would always spar on Fridays and every once in awhile one of the WC guys would want to spar with them.  It was hilarious to watch guys with 3 months of MT training beat the crap out of guys with 2 years of WC training.

Here's a link to the school I'm talking about: http://chanskungfu.com/school/staff_sifu_chan.htm

Master Chan studied Wing Chun under Grand Masters Ip Ching and Ip Chun, the sons of the Great Grand Master Ip Man (teacher to the late Bruce Lee). The bulk of Master Chan's study was with Grand Master Ip Ching. Master Chan is a member and certified Wing Chun Instructor through the Hong Kong Ving Tsun Association, and a founding member and former director of the United States Ip Ching Ving Tsun Athletic Association, and has acted as the personal interpreter for Ip Ching on many of his U.S. visits. In 1996 Master Chan was recognized for his excellence in instruction and awarded the rank of Master by the U.S. Ip Ching Ving Tsun Athletic Association by Grand Master Ip Ching. Master Chan is also a founding member and current director of the International Wing Chun Martial Art Association, and is much sought after for his Wing Chun knowledge

[Xiaou2]

Jiu Jitsu has become the dominant MA for UFC fighting - it neutralizes all of the standing martial arts!

I would rather neutralize an opponent than break my fists on their face.

 UFC  isnt real life fighting.  The two are vastly different, for a large
number of reasons.

 Grappling is a good thing to have under your belt.. but it certainly does
not guarantee you will walk away from a situation living!  Especially
if more than one attacker is involved.   A standing art Can, if you are
skilled enough.

 Also, grappler has to get past 2 ranges to be successful.  Kick range,
and punch range.  And the tools and tricks they use to do this are
weak, and extremely dangerous.

 Not so easy when you fight someone who isnt a wobbling clown,
or limited to which places you can strike.. as well as wearing gloves...etc.

 As said, Ive managed to Knock out 3 skilled grapplers so far.. when
they tried to enter.  I was being nice, and didnt use stomp kicks either...

 Intelligent interception is much safer and better means of combat.

 You intercept FIRST, THEN you Grapple if needed.  In case you didnt
realize, plenty of kungfu styles have grappling within them.


 Also, if you are in an art for protection... you had better have conditioned
arms and fists.  All it will take is one clash, and you will be done from the
searing bone pains, and deep tissue damages.

 I may respond to Basher later.  But in order to do so, it will be painful,
cause he has so much that he needs to learn.  Hes completely
brainwashed, like most people today.
   

[CCM]

I'll kick in $5 a piece as well.

[saint]

Jeez... you know, leave it to men to take something WAY TOO SERIOUSLY and ruin it.



Can't Chad's kids get some exercise, maybe toughen up a little, and have some fun?

Yikes, write this down.

(I agree with PBJ)

[Hoopz]

I agree about getting the two together.  I'll chip in some too.

I'll make the book too.  Odds are 5-4 for Chadwick.

Don't get cocky though Chadwick.  You're only the favorite now until we find out that you had a flock o' seagulls hair cut also.   

[Chadwick]

I agree about getting the two together.  I'll chip in some too.

I'll make the book too.  Odds are 5-4 for Chadwick.

Don't get cocky though Chadwick.  You're only the favorite now until we find out that you had a flock o' seagulls hair cut also.   

Uh oh....


I guess I'm "Basher"... I'm giddy with anticipation of all the ripe, outrageous, unprovable evidence of the awesomeness that is the chun that will be forthcoming; Can't wait for my education.

Look, go back and re-read my original post.  I didn't call out WC by name, but if you read the very next post it is the chunner defending the chun... I find that very telling.

I also have previously stated that ALL MA'S can be beneficial and that any style with a good instructor can be great for kids (though I personally recommend a striking art for a first art for a child).


I only escalated this after the chunner came along and made outrageous claims about WC.   They always make the same excuses as to why there aren't any professional fighters with a WC background:
1) Wing Chun is too deadly for competition
2) MMA is not realistic; we only train for real life
3) WC practitioners are morally/spiritually "above" prize fighting

It's all BS and if you can't see that, I don't know what to say.


All martial arts have benefits = TRUE
All martial arts will make you a good fighter = FALSE

See what I did there?

Why do you think Bruce Lee discarded most of his WC in favor of cross training multiple MA's?  Have you read his book "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do"?  I have several times.  He basically says the same things I'm saying.  Funny that Xiaou either doesn't recognize, or doesn't realize that Bruce Lee abandoned most of his WC training and basically was the first big name to promote the idea of MMA yet he so readily disses it.

[Xiaou2]

You're right, I did, but you try to find me a video of someone doing Wing Chun at full speed/contact... you can't because it doesn't exist.  WC practitioners don't compete above the level shown in that video.  Most WC practitioners don't even spar beyond chi sao drills... this is the heart of the problem with WC.

 - First off, Ill Agree with you about certain points.

 1) There are many Poor WC people out there.
 2) The training is sometimes lacking in "Teeth"

 That does not mean there are not Good WC people out there.. Nor that what is
taught useless, ineffectual, or have Superior tactics, protection & skills than the
styles you listed.

 There are many fast WC vids.  Live?  Not so.  Why?  Because the reality of combat.
First, WC is designed for taking lives, and keeping protected.  It was designed by
rebels whos intent was to take down the govt. powers of the time.  It was made
to be learned extremely fast, and give the person the power to dispel a person in
a second flat... as well as ability to take on multiples.

 Its techniques, such as the Stomp kick to the knee, WILL stop and down ANY attacker.
Ive already proven this to someone like yourself.. who gave me enough crap to warrant
a 35% power version.  He being twice my mass, crying in tears for 6 min... and hobbled
the rest of the night.  Injury not fully healed for a month of time.  I felt very bad about
it, and since then, have not used excessive force to Prove something in combat. I Know
exactly what Im capable of... and Im not about to end up in jail or a lawsuit, for
others amusement.

 Unlike Those Punk Gracies, who will break a fighters arm even after the person taps
out... I have decency standards.

 Individual Techniques and working concepts can be proven easily, by limited power
demonstrations.  They can handle the light level strike?.. then up to med level.  Any
fighter feeling the level of power and stress on his knee to the point of scaring him of injury, will let him know how good the tech is without having a lifelong limp/pains.

 Similarly, I can prove any day of the week, how a WC intercepting / re-directive blocking system has superior advantages over other arts such as Karate... and why after only an
official 1yr of classes... I was making masters of dojos look embarrassed.  I was only
a baby in the system,  who unlike many... had perfected the basic level foundations:
The most important aspect of all. 

 Anyone with a brain will see how the art gives a person an actual advantage, rather
than rely on mere speed, and superior strength.   When you hit 70 yrs old, do you
think you will want to dive for the ground?  Do you think you will be faster than a
fresh 19yr old punk?  Do you think you will be able to maintain your superior strength?
Do you think you can sit there and take a punch or two with your more frail body?

 These are among others, are many reason why WC was designed.  Using intelligence
to gain superior positioning and leverages.  Not simply punching, then retreating over
and over... while hopping like a bunny rabbit.  Hoping not to get hit, while trying to
hit for yourself...  and most the time, getting hit regardless.


 Now - There ARE plenty of WC people who DO cross train with other styles.  (Such as
Master Wong has as well)   Ive done it, and rightly so, as anyone would expect... you
gain a lot.

 For some time, I was getting my butt Handed to me.   I realized, most of the problem
was Me.. and not the art.   I merely was not sticking to the rules under stress. 
Having incorrect positions, doing wrong moves at the wrong times.   It makes you
more disciplined and focused, and eventually, I fixed the issues.
 
 However, if you take WC, and make it a mere combat fest... you will lose a lot
of the precise technical ability.   These things Need to be done slowly, and
working on to perfection at a beginner level.  Eventually, you speed things up,
leave a static drill to a Live drill... and later, you need to spar it live.

 Those who try to jump right into constant sparring Dont learn as much as you
would like to believe.  You learn a few tricks, timing, etc.  But then you stay at that
level forever... just trading blows.   Technical precision needs much more refined
drilling.

 An Analogy would be like learning to Oil Paint.   You could try to rush a painting out
by following along with a Bob Ross video... but you are going to end up with something
that looks like a finger painting, rather than a masterpiece.   His techniques in brush
loading and use, angles, a fine touch, color mixing, etc... are all very difficult skills.
The stuff he did in 30 min, took me 4 hrs long... and didnt look half as good.

 If I had tried to rush every painting in 30 min, without properly developing the
techs fully... I would always end up with a mess.    Instead, I took my time, just
like he did when he created/learned it... and ended up with a decent painting.

 Many people dont seem to mind that they are finger painting.  But when people I
meet see some of the stuff I do (fighting) , and how effective it was against them...
(sparring) they want to start doing stuff above finger paint level.

 To be a master oil painted is no easy task.  Bob Ross is a mere amateur compared
to the other skilled oil painters out there.  And he Trained in the actual fine art
ways of painting.   Like anything... if you want to be good, you have to put in
great efforts.  Master Painting level is going to take a lot more time and dedication...
and the results may look worse than the avid finger painter initially... and for a
longer duration.  However, in time, no finger painter in the world will could match
the level of precision, beauty, expression..etc... that a really good oil painter could
produce.

 So, you will tend to see a lot more bad KungFu people than bad other arts
practitioners... Not because KF is bad, but because its more complex, and needs a
lot more time and skill to perfect.


 The people who progress to levels of lethality... are not exactly the kind of people
that are going to go round breaking limbs to prove their abilities.  They are not
going to participate in a finger painting competition.  They would rather paint with
their proper brushes, superior paints, more colors, finer details...etc.  No limits to what
they can do... and no need to trash others in the process.  KF, is about protection.
Not about stupid ego/sport games. 

 

I have never trained WC, but my son used to take Jow Ga at a school that also taught WC.  The kids Jow Ga class was at the same time as the adult advanced WC class and it was in the next room without a wall between them.  I watched WC twice a week for 8 months and maybe saw some type of sparring on 2 or 3 occasions.  I am an experienced martial artist so I knew what I was looking at/seeing and could hear the teachers explaining the techniques/system.  I was completely underwhelmed with what I saw... and the Sifu is a direct student of Ip Ching (son of Yip Man), Head of the International Wing Chun Martial Art Association, and personal interpreter for Ip Ching whenever he visits the United States; so you can't say that what i saw wasn't *the real Wing Chun*.

 Ill look up Jow Ga later.  Does not even sound official... but who knows.  Anyways,
Weather or not the class spars means nothing.  The first year of WC is all about
learning the foundations of the system, in a static situation.   Its not till 2nd level
when you add footwork.  And for good reasons.   Most people have a hard enough time
operating the complex and precise dual handed operations of WC tactics.  Watching
them, I doubt you could even differentiate what they were doing.. and why.  You have
No idea how much coordination it takes... and how many times you accidentally, for
instance.. make two fists, instead of one hand being a fist, and the other a palm-upwards
hand.  How if you are off by a mere CM, you will create an opening that will give an
opponent an advantage.  How long it takes to build up the specialized "Stable"
technique lines (punching and blocking with perfect lines.. not wavering a bit)
How much sensitivity you learn.. so that you are not stiff like a robot, and easily
compromised by larger people... and able to flow around them with ease.

 As said, this isnt Boxing or TKD.  The blocking isnt simple like arm waves like Karate.
Its complex angles of interception.  Its learning what tech to use for the type of
attack launched.  Each technique flowing based on energy and directional levels.
It takes a person at least 3 classes to merely learn where in the air a "Tan Sao"
or "Palm up block"  is supposed to be located in 3d space... let alone knowing how
to use it, when to use it.. and how to transition..   as Well as adding the use of
another hand doing something completely different at the same exact time.

 As much as you understand, I can see why you Would think its crap.  However,
until you actually Try some of the stuff,  you are clueless.  If you think you could
do the high level stuff of WC in a single class.. I dare you to mention your confidence,
and step up and prove to them how easy it all is.   You wont last 60 seconds
without looking like a bumbling Idiot, as you will soon realize how sad your coordination
really is.


 As for IP, Ive never trained with him.  I know Yip man was a legend, and has many
true stories of his past exploits.   I trained under Steve Lee Swift.  A former Karate
guy, who gave it up for WC, and never looked back.  His classes were at least
80 people at all times.  The place was Huge.  He regularly flew to China, and trained
with multiple WC branches.  I believe more dealing with Yip Chun than anyone else.
He even spoke Cantonese fluently.

Additionally, every Friday at the school was open gym night.  The guys from the MT class would always spar on Fridays and every once in awhile one of the WC guys would want to spar with them.  It was hilarious to watch guys with 3 months of MT training beat the crap out of guys with 2 years of WC training.

 Yet in a few more years, that guy has the potential to Mop the floor with them.
To the point where he could spar them and they couldnt even score a hit.

 No doubt, a MT fighter will be no creme puff.  But, I can take any MT fighter,
and make him a Better fighter with a years training in WC.  Guaranteed.
 
 2yrs is still Baby level in the art of WC.  Especially if he is not training a full schedule,
and a lot outside of class.

 ALSO, you may fail to realize, that he may be intentionally losing.   Much like I was
when I was sparring.

 IE:  Many times i fought this one Kook Sul Wan guy.  He rushed in... I threw a
2-hit chain to his head, and a stop kick to his knee.  He proceeded to plow me
into the ground with his much larger mass.

 However... I COULD have stopped him dead in his trax had I used power in my
punches... and Could have broke his knee had I put power into the kick.  My victory
was a silent one.  I was very happy, as I had easily targeted and struck the
incoming targets flawlessly.   He on the other hand.. was laughing it up.   That same
guy, was the one who I nearly crippled a few months later, for giving me poor respect,
even as I Tried to be nice about things.

 Some people just are not intellectual enough.  They only will understand if they are
completely incapacitated.

[Xiaou2]

I guess I'm "Basher"

 - Yup.  Bash first,  burn the books without reading them.  Its the Nazi way.
And exactly the kind of thing that happens from the MOB over at Bullshido.
Its a modern day version of a Witch Hunt, or Book burning.  Its ignorance
beyond comprehension... with brute nazi-mob style bullying.
Intelligence?  Nowhere to be found.

Look, go back and re-read my original post.  I didn't call out WC by name, but if you read the very next post it is the chunner defending the chun... I find that very telling.

 - Ohh, I read it Very clear.  The Mob has made offensive plays to WC, as well as
many other arts which its practitioners have no skill to perform, or intellect to understand...

 Your Nazi mentality is plain as day.  You are so blinded by your own arrogance,
and ignorance,  you are not open to anything else.

 Btw - Do you think I ONLY do WC?  Nope.  But WC is what gets the job done.
The other stuff is mostly just for fun.

 I also would NEVER call myself an MMA practitioner.   That would be a disgrace to
the mother arts of which I borrow from... as MMA usually denotes a very poor
ability in these arts to which they borrow from.  Its also wrong / childish
to label others discoveries, as your own form of art.


 I will also say, that there are some Nazi style WC guys out there too.  Which is
a very poor position to take.  An art like Shaolin for example, has Tons of great
things or immense value within it.   WC is great, but its not the end of all arts.  Its
a reduced art.  There are more skills to be learned and mastered.   We should not
be so ignorant, and to try to destroy an art merely because it takes a very long
time to master and become effective with.  Pure Ignorance.

I also have previously stated that ALL MA'S can be beneficial and that any style with a good instructor can be great for kids (though I personally recommend a striking art for a first art for a child).

 I did too.  TKD.  Good accurate and powerful kicks, good flexibility.

I only escalated this after the chunner came along and made outrageous claims about WC.   They always make the same excuses as to why there aren't any professional fighters with a WC background:

 I made no Outrageous claims.   They are only that way to you... because you are
a still playing with finger paints.

1) Wing Chun is too deadly for competition

 Its not.  You can get an advantage in any competition with the addition of WC.
That does not mean it will be WC anymore however.  It you make a recipe that
called for garlic and onions.. and you skipped those... the dish will taste completely
different, and wont be anywhere near as good.
 

2) MMA is not realistic; we only train for real life

 MMA is not realistic to actual bare fist fights.  Not even close.

 Most MMA would probably break their hands in a real fight, as many of them are not
properly conditioned.

 There are no groin shots.  This means a guy can stand with a wide base for better
stability.  However, in real combat, thats a very Bad idea.   

 They dont have to worry about nasty blows, like an elbow to the spine or back
of the neck.. which means they can get away with boxer like ducking.  A REALLY unsafe
thing to do in a fight.

 They use gloves.  I dont care how little padding there is... Bare Knuckles are Way more
brutal, sharp and damaging than gloved fighters.   A real fighter usually only has to take
ONE FRICKEN "BARE FIST" PUNCH and its GAME OVER!!!   This is why its so important
to learn an art with superior deflection / protection skills.

 There is no small joint manipulations, finger breaks, finger thrusts strikes to the eyes
and soft targets.  There is no Hard and Rough Road to land and scrape yourself on.
No broken glass, sharp rocks, and things to trip over or land / roll on.

 There is no time limit to a Cop coming,  or a thugs buddies coming while you are
rolling on the ground.  No Multiple tactics at all.

 There are no weapons involved,  tactics, use, evades, disarms...etc.
 
 There is no grabbing, pinching, hitting, and ripping the nads to get a guy off you.
No biting, no clawing, pinching / tearing / ripping or flesh.  Which would completely
change a lot of things that the ground guys normally get away with.

 They can 'Stop' a fight...  Where as a Thug could stomp kick your head in
till you are roadkill.

3) WC practitioners are morally/spiritually "above" prize fighting

 Its always the "Punks" who cant stand this.  I wonder why?!

Why do you think Bruce Lee discarded most of his WC in favor of cross training multiple MA's?  Have you read his book "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do"?  I have several times.  He basically says the same things I'm saying.  Funny that Xiaou either doesn't recognize, or doesn't realize that Bruce Lee abandoned most of his WC training and basically was the first big name to promote the idea of MMA yet he so readily disses it.

 LOL.  You know so little about Lee that its not even funny.  Half the MMA world does
not know Lee or his concepts for crap... and Always mess up what Lees intent was.
Btw - I have ALL of his books, tons of other material on him, AND have trained
some of his techniques.  You?

 Lee would not have been ANYONE without his WC training.  It was in fact his WC
training that allowed him to progress in skill level so quickly... and to take on
high level fighters without harm.  Its what got him noticed and respected.
AND, if you have a good eye.. you can see that whenever Lee is in close range,
he Still uses WC concepts, tactics, and techniques.

 Lee was forced to leave China, and had only learned level 1 WC, maybe a "little" into
level 2.   He had no choice but to stop WC, as there was nobody teaching it here.
Had he learned all 3 levels... his ideas and abilities would have been different and even
more impressive.

 As it stood, Lee fought people in the USA that had No chance against WC.  So,
he didnt feel the need to use all of WCs protection safe guards to get the job done.
He could dance like a monkey.. then when close, would own them from the:

  "INTERCEPTING FISTS"  (This is what Jeet Kun Do  translates to)

 Do you know what that means?  Its a play off WC technology.  We intercept a
persons strike arm with our own.

 Do you know what JKD was all about?

 It was about promoting cross training, as well as him advising that certain peoples
body types may be better suited to use different tactics.  IE: A technique that works
for a tall person.. may not work as well for a shorter one.

 Did you know... that Lees style... that was not supposed to be a style.. kept changing?
All his concepts changed over the course of his life.  The scrap notes used to put
together his Tao book, could contain such things that he had since changed.

 The more he progressed... the more he realized that he know so very little.  He
was trying to re-invent the wheels.. and those wheels had already been invented
2000 yrs ago.   The problem is... that since Lee became so big.. and because the
Chinese did not want Lee teaching to non-Chinese... he had a near impossible
time learning new stuff.

 He had to try to sneak lessons with senior students...  And even that was very limited.

 Also, unlike MMA... Lee Perfected everything he did.  He didnt label what he did as
MMA.  He merely training a tech until it couldnt be bettered, thus actually usable in real
situations safely.   He didnt try to learn parts of 6 arts at once, being lackluster
at all of them like todays fighters.  He also was not a big sports guy.  He was a teacher,
a performer, a philosopher, and a Martial Artist training for Real combat.  Not a
pathetic prize fighter hurting people for money.  While he may have been a punk when
he was young.. he grew past that, and only fought as a last resort.  IE: When someone
attacked him, or kept persisting and wouldnt back away.

 Lee also knew and practiced  Fajin.  The biggest secret of all the Chinese arts.  The
thing that they used to only teach at the very end, and to select people.   The power to
take a life, from mere inches away from a target.

 Lee didnt invent the 1" punch.  In fact, it was basically taught to him from the
WC striking.  Though, many WC people do not develop it to a serious level.
Its also in the Combat version of Tai Chi.  Possibly others.

 Lee did a "Push" Version of the strike, rather than the full power version.  The
reason is... the forces are not visible to the eye.  People always think that if a guy
goes sailing back 10 feet.. the strike must have been very powerful.  However,
with Fajin, a person will not move back more than a few inches at most.  It will
look weak to an observer.  However, to the person hit by it.. they may get
seriously injured internally... as the force of your entire mass is exploded all
at one FRACTION OF A SECOND of time... rather than a typical punch which
spreads the forces over a full second, and accelerates the opponent away from you.

 Lee documents some training to obtain this in his books.. but never gave
a "How To".  However, after his Death, one of his students decided to release
a small how-to book on the technique.

 I personally had developed it on my own, well before I found that book.  But,
without Lees hints, I probably never would have learned and developed it.
Its nothing like any typical strike... and needs a good deal of specialized training
and equipment, to obtain high levels of power.


 The Real Truth is out there... but if you are too stubborn and blinded by your own
ideals, ego..etc..  You are not going to learn it.


 

[Hoopz]

Chadwick is now a 15-1 favorite.

[Chadwick]

TL;DR: You're full of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and everyone knows it now.

By the way, are you posting as wingchunx2z in this thread? Because you sound just like him.

[shardian]

Just so you know, your explanation of Fajin violates the laws of Physics.

Just to recap, Force = Mass*Acceleration.


Also, I'm not going to go back and find it but you posted a vid of an old dude performing Fajin. He had a peach gui, and looked like he was having an orgasm. The dude was using seriously pathetic striking form. I could not take him seriously, when seeing how badly his wrists would be broken if he was hitting something real.

[shmokes]

Xiaou, I think perhaps you are not very familiar with what the Nazis did during WWII. 

[ChadTower]

You guys actually read all of that?   

[Hoopz]

You guys actually read all of that?   

Nope.  That's why the odds jumped dramatically in favor of Chadwick.

[Hoopz]

And Xiaou, you need to stop thinking that anyone who disagrees with you is a bully, Nazi, or any other ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---.  Criticism or general observations aren't attacks against something.  It's opinion.  People put up with other people's opinions all the time.   

[Chadwick]

That's why I didn't bother breaking down his wall of text... I'd be here for days.

Popping knees out with 35% power? Was this on an Ehtiopian by chance?  I have a black belt in TKD so I know a teeny tiny bit about kicking, and if you pull my other leg it plays "Jingle Bells".

Internal strikes and exploding torsos?  Did you have to hit Back, Down, Forward+B to pull that off?

Seriously...

[Hoopz]

That's why I didn't bother breaking down his wall of text... I'd be here for days.

Popping knees out with 35% power? Was this on an Ehtiopian by chance?  I have a black belt in TKD so I know a teeny tiny bit about kicking, and if you pull my other leg it plays "Jingle Bells".

Internal strikes and exploding torsos?  Did you have to hit Back, Down, Forward+B to pull that off?

Seriously...

Check out his website in case you didn't get the flock of seagulls reference.   

[Chadwick]

I wanted to check it out, but I just ran, I ran so far away...

[ChadTower]

I learned as a kid not to look up at flocks of seagulls.  Sorry.

[Hoopz]

I learned as a kid not to look up at flocks of seagulls.  Sorry.

I found bird poop on my pants after football practice in middle school.  Little bastard got me right on my calf when I was running.

[ChadTower]

I found bird poop on my pants after football practice in middle school.  Little bastard got me right on my calf when I was running.

You grow up right on the ocean, wandering around commercial wharves in a fishing town, and you get seagull crap on you all the time.  Hats and raincoats.  Just part of going where you know the seagulls are.

[shardian]

I found bird poop on my pants after football practice in middle school.  Little bastard got me right on my calf when I was running.

You grow up right on the ocean, wandering around commercial wharves in a fishing town, and you get seagull crap on you all the time.  Hats and raincoats.  Just part of going where you know the seagulls are.

I'd happily embrace seagull crap if that meant I could have grown up oceanside. All of you coastal folks are lucky bastiges.
BTW, I leave tommorrow for the beach. It will be my first time ever being at the beach in the off-season. Even though it will only be in the 70's all week, I am super excited. And yeah, I'm getting out in the water no matter what.

[ChadTower]

That must be in new england or something.  If you went wandering around the Texas shrimping towns in a hat and raincoat you'd faint from a heat stroke.

Nova Scotia, it's not quite as necessary in the MA fishing towns.  You still get crapped on but up in NS the seagulls will circle above an incoming boat by the hundreds.

Shardian, it really depends on where you are.  There isn't much recreational use in southern NS beyond going out on boats a couple months a year.  No swimming, few beaches, frigid water and monster riptides.  There is a lot of recreational use in MA but it's nothing like you see on TV with people surfing and walking around in string bikinis.

[ChadTower]

Water's a little murky in Texas but it's warmer.  Looking at booking a cottage for this weekend.  $70 a night, little steep but hey.

$70 a night here is a good deal for a rathole motel room.

[shmokes]

The water's still perfect here.  No seagulls to speak of either.  I'll maybe see 20 total after spending a few hours at the beach.  Miami's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.  But it has its moments.   

[Grasshopper]

Jeez... you know, leave it to men to take something WAY TOO SERIOUSLY and ruin it.



Can't Chad's kids get some exercise, maybe toughen up a little, and have some fun?

Yikes, write this down.

(I agree with PBJ)

+1

However, I just can’t resist getting involved … 

Chadwick, I totally agree with the main gist of what you’re saying. However, I think you’re perhaps being a little unfair about Wing Chun. To illustrate my point I’m going to try and compare Wing Chun with Western boxing. Note, I’m not a martial arts expert, so take what I’m saying with a grain of salt.

Firstly, if you ask me who’s likely to be the better fighter, a boxer or a Wing Chun practitioner, I’d have no hesitation in saying the boxer. That much we can agree with.

A typical boxing class will involve full contact sparring (albeit with gloves being worn). And whilst fighting with gloves on is somewhat different to bare-knuckle fighting, it’s close enough to be useful. However, a typical Wing Chun class will only offer, at best, semi-contact sparring. Many don’t even offer that.

There is really no substitute for full contact sparring if you want to learn to fight properly, and that in a nutshell is why the boxer will almost certainly be the better fighter.

However, despite that, I would still argue that Wing Chun is a more effective, and certainly a more complete, system of fighting than western boxing. That sounds contradictory but you need to separate the effectiveness of the art itself, from the way in which practitioners typically train (at least in the west). If Wing Chun classes incorporated full contact sparring then I believe “chunners” would be just as effective as boxers. Conversely, if boxing classes didn’t incorporate full contact sparring then boxers would be just as ineffective in real fights as Wing Chun experts.

In fact I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to describe boxing as a subset of Wing Chun. If you take the handful of Wing Chun moves that can be executed comfortably whilst wearing boxing gloves and then remove the kicks, you’re left with something that is fairly close to western boxing. There are, after all, only so many ways that you can hit someone. Also, many of the principles that underpin Wing Chun (always face the opponent, protect the centre line etc.) are exactly the things that boxers are taught to do.

As far as the exercises that take place in oriental martial arts classes are concerned, they’re just that – exercises. Whether they work or not is of course debateable. I guess it’s ultimately subjective. But one thing is clear, they were not designed to make people into fighters on their own, they were designed to help people already learning to fight by other means to be better fighters.

This is not unique to martial arts. Most sports have training exercises. But you wouldn’t expect to become any good just by doing the exercises, you also have to actually play the sport. The exercises are just the icing on the cake so to speak.

I suspect that the need to do the exercises in conjunction with genuine sparring is something that got “lost in translation” when some of the oriental martial arts were exported to the west.

[ChadTower]

Nobody knows how a person is going to react to getting punched in the grill until that person gets punched in the grill.  There is no substituting that with anything else if your goal is capability in a real fight.  That applies to fighting, contact sports, or anything else where a person has to do something that really hurts and either quit or fight back.

[Chadwick]

Both of you make excellent points, and I don't disagree with either of you.

I freely admit I may have been a bit hyperbolic in my previous posts, but sweet baby Jesus in a manger... did you read some of the claims he made?

[Hoopz]

did you read some of the claims he made?

Nope.  Been there, done that.  Same song and dance as before.

[Xiaou2]

And Xiaou, you need to stop thinking that anyone who disagrees with you is a bully, Nazi, or any other

 Firstly, I have no problem with a person who disagrees.  However, there is a
difference between a person who disagrees, and a MOB that gets together
to work their mob powers.

 These BulshidoEns, do not argue rationally.  They bash and burn anything,
offensively, if it does not go along with what they believe.

 I can understand a group getting upset by masters saying they can control
a person with invisible energy... but the other things they try to destroy,
are not even comparable.  They do not research deeply, do not perform real
world test.  Do not care to try to understand and Learn something new.


 Grasshopper is saying just just about exactly what Ive posted.  While WC
may have limits to the training... One can always go out and Spar others,
and get that experience, as I did.

 I can take any Boxer, train him in WC, and yeah... he will probably no doubt
be better at WC than a first time martial artists who only took up WC, and never
did any sparring.   That said... "I"  did learn WC as my first art... but I was no
pushover.  I went out and sparred constantly as soon as I had a decent level of
foundation... AND, it worked.
 
 The "argument" that WC does not work, because some lazy students dont want
to go out an put on some gloves.. is crap.

 
 As for my claims, they are all as said.  And, anyone who does the research, will
find that Im not the only one who knows about, or can do this stuff.  Of course,
to really understand, you may need to march yourself to the nearest JKD or WC
school to see if one of them has someone capable to Demo on you.  OR, you can
start training your Weakness of short range power... and soon see massive
improvements, as you start to develop and understand.  And No, there is no
violation of physics in Fajin.

 This article better explains the concept of Fajin in non-mystical terms:
http://www.martialtaichi.co.uk/articles/fajin.php

 
 A Fajin strike is not limited to a Wrist strike as seen mostly in Chen Xiaowangs
Tai Chi demonstration.  It can be added to Any strike.  Punches, elbows,
finger strikes, as well as Kicks.

 I can also say, that Ive fought Many good TKD artists.  In fact, Ive taught
myself a lot of their style of kicking as well.  TKD however, does not do much
with Low kicks.. as that is against the Sport style Sparring they do.  IF
some TKD do low kicks, it would probably be a round kick.. and not a straight
stomp/stop kick, that is in WC, and some other KF styles.

 ALSO, TKD (In Most places)  does not train their kicks against SOLID hard
objects... such as a brick wall.  They are used to kicking soft people, pine boards,
or a soft-moving kick bag.

 Whats the Differences?

 For example, if you go out to a parking lot.. and kick one of those 4" diameter
parking poles, a tree, or similar... its not going to give much if at all.  The forces
will then be directed more inside of your own body.   If you have ANY weak or
loose section, it will crumble (bend/flex) from the forces... and that will cause
a loss of conduction.  Loss of conduction, will result in loss of power delivery
ability.

 Conduction?!   Anyone knows that a solid object is best suited to conducting
energy.  It you place a block of wood in front of someones chest, hit the block..
the person will still feel/get plenty of that energy.  The wood conducts very
well.  However, repeat that with a block of softer rubber.. and the rubbers
material will absorb some of the forces through "flex".

 If you were to hit a person, and your elbow bent a little in the process, you
effectively Lost power to deliver.  Same also, is if your knee bent a little when
you made impact.  And even harder to notice, is internal stuff.. such as if
part of your body is "Relaxed" when you hit.  Sure, your first and arm may be
tight... but what about your mid section? Your legs?  If they are not ALL
completely Linked and Solid at the exact moment of Greatest Impact forces...
there Will be self absorption losses.

 A concept that you should try to remember, is that to gain max power,
you need aid of the Ground.  Any force exerted against you, goes all the way
thru you, and to the ground at your feet.  If you were to jump in the air, and
double palm a wall, you would be forced backwards, as there is nothing to
brace you.  Forces lost.   However, if you were to hit that same wall, with good
braced footing from the ground... you can maintain that Connection and
Conduction from Ground to Fist.   In Tai Chi, they call this a "Ground Path".
A Path that goes from the ground to your fist, with a Solid muscular/skeletal
connection.

 Now, you will say... "But Boxers already do this".  Its true.  Almost anyone
uses these concepts.  The problem is accuracy and timing.  If you are off
a hair on one aspect.. or off by a split second of time.. you can lose up to
50% power delivery.  This is why most boxers do not knock each other out
with a single hit.  They simply can not deliver power accurately every time,
and lose most of it due to slight problems here and there.

 A boxer also does not build as much "Fast-Twitch" muscles.  They are more
concerned with bulky strength instead.  Fast twitch, allows the ability to
do a full body "Spasm" or "Convulsion", at speeds of hundreaths of a second.
A sneeze (exhaling, not the build up)  is very similar... and have been estimated
to be as fast as 649 mph, or 290 ft/sec.  85% of the speed of sound.

 A typical punch, will never reach 650 mph.  However, add Fajin on to the End
of a punch... and you have effectively struck all of your mass, at over 650mph.
This kind of power is devastating.  Hence the term "Explosive".. it can literally
burst internal vessels / organs.   Most people skilled at this, will never draw back
more than 3 inches, use only partial power, and always use something like a
phone book in front of the target to help disperse the energy.  Besides the
material being able to flex a little.. .the wide of the book is less damaging
due to the forces being less concentrated all in one small area.  Also,
the fist is not allowed to go very deep into the target.. which results in more
compression of the targets internals, and thus more serious damages.

 For every inch pulled back, Fajin is capable of Multiplicative damages.  Instead
of a scale of  1,2,3,4,5,6,7..   its more like  1,5,25,85,500,7500.

 It can be created merely from a body tense timed perfectly (at the
end of a strike)... Or in the advanced methods, can use the hips/body
rotations added to it for even more power... and finally, you can also use the
combination of simultaneous forwards footwork as well.

 A person who Tries this and gets nothing more than a push, will immediately call
BS.  This power is not developed overnight. It can take a few months to notice
the power level changes.  And less than a year of dedicated work, you can
be lethal at close ranges.


 Going back to my post about the Stomp kick...  Which is a Diagonal downwards
low kick aimed mostly at the knee or shins, toe pointed outwards.. Hitting with
the bottom of the foot nearest the heel.   Its more dangerous than a round
kick because its usually thrown when someone is coming directly at you.  As
they plant their lead leg, that contains most of their mass on it... you have already
started to make contact with it.  With that full body Fajin energy, you tense up.
Your rear leg fully grounded.  The power levels will easily stop a kick, but more
so, can do ridiculous damages.

 Its again, trained properly, by striking Solid objects such as thick diameter poles,
trees, etc...  Keeping your Shoes on.   There is no need to do barefoot training
for this.   Kick at full power, slowly first..  later working on full power & full speed.
Speed in delivery, and Retraction.

 A curved low kick can easily be disapted by a slight leg lift, footwork, body turns,
palm block, knee bending, etc..  The body can flex to absorb these forces decently.  Not the case from a body that is moving forwards.  A fighters conditioned legs can may have meat in the area which is to be struck, and or just is dense enough to accept the power levels.  You can not easily condition the knee.  And since you are kicking in a direction that the knee can not bend in, they
will not be able to diffuse the energy...  thus full damages ensue.

 Its hard to see, as its lightning fast.  Its 10x faster than any MT kick, and
10x as deadly.  Anyone knows that a straight line is more effecient than a circle.
It also nearly impossible to block.. unless you always keep your weight on the
rear leg.  A practice that most WC styles do, as we are left with a front leg that
can instantly attack or defend with the lead leg without any "De-Weight" time.

 De-Weight time?  If you are resting your weight an your lead leg.. and need
to kick with it.. you have to first lean back and take the weight off it, so that you
can begin to lift it.

 Bruce Lee liked to do something similar, but with the rear leg.  He would stand
with a front loaded lead, and throw a rear-straight wc low kick with it. Lightning
fast stuff, and incredibly powerful.
 

 Ive posted this rough Pic as an example of the dangers of a Stomp kick -vs-
traditional boxing Lead leg footwork.   Note: The lead kick foot was not edited to
show it should be pointing slightly outwards...  as it currently appears to be
almost sideways... which isnt the case.  Rear knee should have a hair more
bend in there too.

[shmokes]

Xiaou . . . if guy writes a novel on an arcade message board and nobody reads it, did he really write the novel?  My friend, nobody . . . and I mean NOBODY read your last post . . . not all of it, anyway.   I read the first few paragraphs, but I couldn't keep going.

Trust me, if a windbag like me is calling for a little brevity you have a problem.  Reel it in a little.  Words that are never read never convinced anyone of anything.  I promise you, nobody read that whole post. 

[Justin Z]

I'm in for 1½ paragraphs.  Maybe after seven or eight posts all of us put together will have read an amount of words equal to the number of words in your post.

[Xiaou2]

 If it were only so simple as a 2 line sentence, then thats what I would have
wrote.

 However, the stuff I speak of is very complex, (hence why may people dont
do/get it)  and needs a lot of words to try to convey it.

 Most non martial artists probably dont have the desire to understand, so their
minds will wander when trying to read/absorb it.  Obviously, this is then not for
you.

 If someone cares that much to argue the points, then they either have to read
and comprehend it,  or they then concede by forfeit.

 If I put in less description, then the so called Know-it-alls, would post a ton of
other related posts, saying it was full of holes.

 Anyways, there is enough information there for an artists that has the desire,
to comprehend the concepts.  From there, its a matter of actually researching
the methods further, and simply "Doing".

[shmokes]

Xiaou, it doesn't work for two reasons.  For one, it's just poor writing.  The novel I'm reading now is more than 1000 pages.  I got no problem with length, per se.  But your writing is incredibly disjointed and disorganized and bloated.

But what's more, and perhaps more importantly, you're on a message board.  And the format of communication on a message board is more or less conversational.  When you're having a conversation with someone you can't just suddenly talk non-stop for two hours.  The person didn't come for a lecture; he came for conversation.

Hell, Xiaou, imagine for a second that your delusion is true, and you are simply dealing with a bunch of intellectual inferiors.  The end result is the same.  You're writing for an audience.  If you're writing for 8-year-olds you give them Dahl, not Shakespeare. 

In the end, though, the fact is NOBODY read your post.  Nobody.  Zero.  Not one single solitary person.  So what's the point?  There's no such thing as concession by forfeiture in a casual argument.  Your point cannot be proven through irritation alone.  WC does not become more or less legitimate by virtue of your inability to write concise, compelling prose.

[Xiaou2]

lol, My Delusion?!   This coming from a guy who knows Nothing about the
arts, and has no physical experience whatsoever.  lol   Classic.

message board is more or less conversational

 That depends on the information being exchanged.  There are entire message posts on
how entire cabinets and assemblies were built here.

 Some people may be here for the conversational experience.  Others may be here
to learn something new... or to contribute something new.  If there is a thread which
details how to build a Star Wars yoke, its going to be very long.  For the average
person who has zero interest in that... they will move on.

 For the people who Do have a background in the arts, they may in fact be interested
in that there is a different way to do something that they have not been taught before.

 This was true for myself, when I ran into Bruce Lee's writings, then later, many other
similar writings.  Its what lead me on the path to developing it for myself.

 I Could simply write a  "How To" ...but without an explanation of the principles of
how it works..  nobody would understand, thus not attempt with efforts.

 While Chadwhich may begin to understand what Fajin means, he may be too
stubborn to try to develop it.   However, there are others out there who Will see the
text, and silently take note as the inspiration hits them like a hammer.

 If there are actually some people who are genuinely interested, and have further
questions, Im happy to clarify points, or reveal more data.


 As for the Level of intellectual intelligence in the Audience,  I can tell you that most
people here are very capable of understanding these concepts.  The problem isnt
intelligence, its mere Ignorance.

 If you think you have seen it all, know it all..  you are more likely to claim false
victory. 

 If you challenge someone with different knowledge and experiences,
they have to either Ignore it... Or decide to investigate.  That is for them to decide.

[SavannahLion]

You guys actually read all of that?   

I'm waiting for the Cliff Notes. I quit sometime around page 2. I just stopped by to see if anybody directed a comment towards me.

As interesting as it is to read through this, I need to get back to my projects.

[shmokes]

Yeah but, Xiaou . . . nobody's reading it.  Just like I didn't read more than halfway through the third paragraph of your last post.  And I read even less of the one before.  Your ranting is just too tedious.  Actually, I think I just identified your main problem.  It's not just length.  You're always ranting.  It's unreadable.

[RayB]

You have to wonder how much time he spends on those posts. WOW.

[Chadwick]

Today, I learned the shoryuken

[CCM]

[ChadTower]

So the Muay Thai fighter is a much bigger ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?---?

[RayB]

Orange cat is using a grappling technique, so it's no Muay Thai.
 

[Xiaou2]

  Plenty of fun stories in my adventures in the arts.  Heres one:


 One day I was out getting Trashed at the local club.  3 pretty strong
long islands later... I see this guy trying to show a karate move to
some newbie.

 I walk over to him, and express that its not a good idea to try to show
someone like this a move, as the kid will not be any good at it... and
if the attacker does something different, he wont have a clue what to
do.   I demonstrated a physical example to show it...

 The karate guy then started throwing strikes at me... and as drunk as
I was, I still managed to intercept and render them useless.  I figured
he was just playing / testing me... but it turns out he wanted a piece of
me (I bruised his Inflated Ego) ...as all the sudden he stepped in to try to
score a real hit to my head.

 At that time, I was so hammered that I didnt fully catch him change
distance fast enough. (I was seeing like the equivalent of 15fps at that
time) He walked right into my Straight punches. He had grazed my jaw
with his hook... but there was no power because it had been neutralized
by my hit landing.

 My head bobbed a bit... and next thing I heard was "Glasses!".  At first,
I thought I had lost mine.  So I felt around the nearby ground.  Soon
enough, I realized mine were still on my face.

 When I hit the kid, it split his glasses in two.

 I apologized to the guy, but I told him it was his fault for stepping in.

 The guy, was cool about it, and shook my hand as we were now
formally introduced.  lol    A new found respect, after having all his
initial strikes deflected, and then eating a straight blast...  all while trying
to beat on a guy who was almost at 'stumble level' drunk.

 Good Fun   

[Chadwick]

I told you chain punching was weaksauce!

[Xiaou2]

 
 If I can knock fighters from less than 6" from one punch, imagine 2 or 3 punches
in a row...

 A chain of punches, is only as good as the training behind one of them.

 I can imagine, due to your lame standards, why you wouldnt understand what
"Good" training was all about.

 I punch a bag filled with about 10 lbs of metal bb's.  You?

[ChadTower]

You'll put your eye out, kid.

[Xiaou2]

lol  

You'll put your eye someones out, kid.

Fixt  


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[CCM]

are those wind chimes in the last picture?

[Xiaou2]

 Steel Bars (Advanced Wrist-Weights).

 You hang the mass from your wrists, and slowly move your fist/arm back and
forth down the punching line.   About 45 seconds or more for each direction.
Each arm getting about 5 minutes each.  Several 5 min  reps if desired.

 Most people have trouble doing 3 min of slow motion work with their arms alone,
as in a typical day, you rarely leaving your arms in the air for any length of time.

 You can see many fighters dropping their guards when they get tired.  This is
something that can help with this.  Not only that, but you gain power and accuracy
down the entire line.  Rock solid stability, even under stresses.  You get additional
power / strength to boot.

 The advantage of this over simple wrist weights?

- Wrists weights are uncomfortable, bulky, and awkward.  The wrists strap is comfy. 

- The mass is easy to add/remove. There is a LOT more mass in those bars than
in wrists weight setups.

- You can, if you like, train two arms at once with 2 devices. Wrists weights wouldnt
allow this as well due to the bulky size.

- Traditional Kungfu often use metal rings, which are expensive, bulky, and noisy.
These weights can even be used at fairly good speeds, should you want to train
a different way.  They are pretty much silent, and due to the way they are
hung, they counter-balance, rather than swing violently.

[CCM]

ugh... I was being sarcastic... not looking for a lesson...

[Hoopz]

ugh... I was being sarcastic... not looking for a lesson...

I got it.  Subtlety is too much for some people.   

[Chadwick]

 

[saint]

You have any videos of you sparring?

lol  

You'll put your eye someones out, kid.

Fixt  


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[Xiaou2]

 First off, He was not drunk.  I was.   2nd, he tried to throw multiple strikes at me,
and failed.  The more serious he got (stepped in),  he got pounded due to the
simplicity of the science behind the techniques.

 That was merely an example of a situation which was more "Serious", which
could have gotten very ugly.

 Ive talked down a few guys from real fights.  This guy just was the type who
punched first, talked later.

 I could site several more exciting sparring sessions, where the big guy lost
his cool and went from the friendly mid-level power and speed... To  "Injure-Him"
mode, at full power, full speed.  However, it seemed you wanted a real world
example.. and besides heavy sparring, thats all Ive got.  Im not a punk who
starts trouble for no good reasons.   I imagine however, your personality rubs
people much worse than I ever could... And so I imagine you have gotten into
more Real scraps than care to admit.

 Unlike you, Im trained to take lives.  I value all life, so I dont jump into mode
unless someone swings at me, threatening to take that life away.
Im also confident, and know my skill level of protection ability... so I dont fret and
fear when someone gets near.  Many others would shoot a strike out, merely out
of fear and lack of control... making a possible 'ok' situation much much worse.

Saint:

 At the time of my most intense training, I was ages 20 to 25.  Im now 36.
11 yrs ago, camcorders were not as prevalent.. and I personally could not
afford them at the time... nor did I really feel the need to get one.

 (I dont even think I had a computer back then.  Amazing how time flies...)

 I do however have many local people who have witnessed all of what Ive said...
and can back me up.

---
 
And Yeah, I knew it was a poke at me.  However, I felt it better to describe the
workings of the technology to those who actually wanted to benefit.. rather than
acknowledge your attempt at button pushing.

---

 Finally, sparring vids only say so much.  You cant feel the power of a strike in a video.
Heck, half the people cant even make out the deflections / technology in a video.

 I know this, because when I started... my Sifu (Teacher) told us that after we learned
a certain amount of WC, we would see movies completely different.  Martial artists
who once looked very fast and amazing on film... suddenly looked simplistic and easy
to replicate.   I believe he called it the "Kungfu Eye".   Just as he said, it rang true
in a very short time of development.


 I am considering making a nice demo however.  One where I teach a few small woman
the Fajin strike... and have them KO a nice big martial artist from a few inches away.
Time, and finding the woman who have the motivation and dedication, will be the issue.

[shmokes]

 I am considering making a nice demo however.  One where I teach a few small woman
the Fajin strike... and have them KO a nice big martial artist from a few inches away.
Time, and finding the woman who have the motivation and dedication, will be the issue.

You can call them The Deadly Viper Assassination Squad.

[Xiaou2]

(Please ignore the caterpillar under my nose  >.<  )

 Me at about age 23:   6ft  145 lbs.  I was skin and bones... taking on guys like this,
many bigger, stronger, and more skilled than him actually.  Actually, this is the guy
who's knee I nearly broke.

 As much as he is smiling to the cute girl behind the camera...  When hes in action,
hes a steam roller on a mission.

 He isnt 'Cut', but under the exterior flab, lies a ton of solid muscle.  The guy has
tree-trunks for legs, which filled in his pants to the point where they looked like they
would burst open.  Me, my pants were loose as heck... as I have chicken legs.

 He has a whole room worth of trophies for 1st place sparring events,
more than likely due to mere power and mass.  Still, he wasnt exactly a dummy when
it came to fighting knowledge/skill either.
 
 You can see he was taller, as well as all his limbs and mid section were twice
mine in diameter.  He probably had over an 80lb advantage on me, not counting
the height leverage advantage.

 When you fight such a contrast, your techniques have to be dead on perfect... or
you do in fact get steamrolled.  It took some time before I learned how to put WC
into practice on such guys.. but when I did, it was rare for them to land a shot anymore.


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[saint]

Saint:

 At the time of my most intense training, I was ages 20 to 25.  Im now 36.
11 yrs ago, camcorders were not as prevalent.. and I personally could not
afford them at the time... nor did I really feel the need to get one.

 (I dont even think I had a computer back then.  Amazing how time flies...)

 I do however have many local people who have witnessed all of what Ive said...
and can back me up.

Steve, I wasn't challenging you to put up - I actually want to see you spar. I'm taking JuJitsu, Aikido, Kyukido, and Hapkido right now, so this stuff interests me

[shmokes]

I just figured why you give me so much trouble.

Well, haven't fought just one person for so long; been specializing in groups, battling gangs for local charities, that kind of thing.

Well, you see-- you use different moves... when you're fighting... half a dozen... people... than when you only... have to be worried... about one...

[Xiaou2]

Saint, I knew you werent.  I merely felt the need to express that because
some others are more interested in poking fun than learning something
new.   Id gotten the run around from a bunch of these types many times
in my past.

 Btw - Your line-up is quite impressive.  Congrats to you.   I may start
training seriously again soon... and have been considering a 2nd art
such as Akido, or possibly Tai Chi if I can find a decent place around here.

[CCM]

---
 
And Yeah, I knew it was a poke at me.  However, I felt it better to describe the
workings of the technology to those who actually wanted to benefit..

---

Who are these people you speak of?

[Xiaou2]

Saint:

so this stuff interests me

 CCM,
 
 Just because You are not interested in learning and trying new things
does not mean others are as block-headed.

 And just because only 5 people reply on a thread does not mean
these are the only people reading (or will ever read) the thread.
Just that many people do not feel the need to reply, and or do not need
the grief of dealing & arguing with blockheads.

 You obviously THINK you know everything worth knowing.
However, you would be surprised at how much you dont know,
how much you know is wrong, incomplete, or inferior to other things
out there.

 There are Plenty of people who know and will learn more than you ever
will in your entire lifetime, simply because of your own poor attitude.

[CCM]