kids and martial arts?

[ChadTower]

I had this nice long post and the cat hit the keyboard. 

You pussied out.

[shmokes]

Shmokes, I don't know where you're getting this idea that learning martial arts somehow prevents a kid from learning and potentially being good at football, basketball etc.

Of course, it doesn't technically prevent it.  That is just the reality more often than not.  I think that most parents who put their kids in martial arts (Chad notwithstanding) are not interested in, or don't have the time/resources to, put their kid in a wide range of sports.  Moreover, they are often not putting their kids in martial arts to learn to play well with others, but rather to learn how to physically defend themselves from others.  

And in fact the skills you learn in martial arts are not nearly as transferable to other sports than those learned in mainstream sports.  Videogames develop eye-hand coordination.  If you took your kid to work all summer and had him moving bricks or hauling sandbags around, and then he came home and played videogames every night, he would get lean and strong and he might have great eye-hand coordination.  But he's not going to walk out on a baseball field and be a natural because of it.  Of course every little bit helps, but when your kids are playing soccer or baseball, learning to play together, handling balls, stop-and-go running, having an inner sense of the physics of ball movement, i.e., how far it will go when thrown/kicked/hit -- and especially how to adjust for things like making the ball reach the same destination in an arc rather than a line.  Many of these skills are highly transferable from one game to another.  

Obviously martial arts training builds muscle, flexibility and coordination, but so do all those other sports.  And, as Chad I'm sure will agree, sports do not cease to be important once you are an adult.  Many adults continue playing sports.  I'm only 31, but I think that counts as adult and I play sports with my friends regularly (mostly tennis and soccer now, but I often played football too up until a few years ago).    

BTW, Xiaou, you are now as graceful as a cat with arms like iron bars, but if you walk out on a basketball court or tennis court you're still nearly as awkward as ever, I imagine.  

edit: clarity

[shmokes]

You pussied out.

Somebody throw a tomato at this guy.   

[Xiaou2]

That's nice, but you still sleep alone.

 Ive been with my fair share of beauties.  Maybe I didnt marry... but I could be in
another relationship, if I chose it.  Unlike you, I dont have to expend efforts hiding
how much of an A** I am.


 And Shmokes,  Sorry... but you are way out off base with your Assumptions.

 It takes a lot more physical ability to a martial art like Wing Chun than it does to
play tennis, or swing a baseball bat.   In many sports, you build specific muscle sets,
and abilities.  In the arts, you have to build all muscle sets.
 
 - Flexibility
 - Speed
 - Power
 - Balance / Accurate Weight placement & recovery
 - Sensitivity
 - Fast coordination
 - Equal Accuracy / Power with all limbs
 - Endurance
 - No fear / Confidence
 - No Pain (reduced pain levels, and willpower to fight past pains)
 - Fluidity / Accurate Footwork & smooth movements

 All of these are sought after goals in a sport.   AND, a sport is less useful in life
than learning a martial art.

 ALSO, there is cooperation in the arts.  While there still are the occasional punks,
there are people who help each other out - to better each others skills.
And, some of these bullies quickly learn the power of the individual, and realize
its best not to tempt fate by being a pushy jerk... least they get buried at an
early age.

 And BTW - I can call out tons of instances where sport is Not about teamwork.. and
more about the individual.  Probably more examples of this than all of the arts combined.


 As for my sports performances "Now"... I would never say that I could go out there
and pick up a racket and challenge the worlds best.  What I am saying... is that if
I compared my ability to do that with and without martial arts training... you would
see that my performance would be over 90% improvement between them.

 Playing Basketball before... and I would have been tripping over my own feet.
It takes someone a lot of dedicated effort just to try to push me off balance now.

 And being that you have to throw techniques down perfect lines... you develop
very steady paths.  Such as in the example of my student getting better bowling scores,
because he can maintain straighter lines - for longer durations of time, even under stresses
of weight (ball) and circumstances.

 There are instances where you must be able to sense energy going from one direction
quickly to the other... with a feathers touch.   This could help a football player better stick to
his opposition, for example.  And reading footwork and intent of attack... could help lead to
better ability to read direction and intent on faints, jukes..etc... And give better ability to
stop or counter the event.

 
 Flexibility - Adds performance, as well as keeps an athlete (or normal lazy bum) from getting
injured easily.
 
 Speed - In reaction, and intended actions, needs no explanation of its importance.  These
quick-twitch muscle fibers are only developed when you train them specifically that way.

 

physics of ball movement, i.e., how far it will go when thrown/kicked/hit -- and especially how to adjust for things like making the ball reach the same destination in an arc rather than a line.  Many of these skills are highly transferable from one game to another.

 Ever pick up a pair of Nunchaka? Or even better.. The "Rope Dart" ?  heh   
You clearly do not understand the arts at all. Everything in the arts is about physics
and distances.  You have to account for your distance to the target, the target moving,
the depths of impact, and what will happen should the target vastly move, or move in a
different direction.

 There are straight lines, and hooking lines in kicks and punches.  One has to account
for these as well, in:  Throwing, intercepting, redirecting, evading, blocking..etc.

 You also do not realize how much you deal with mass.  When you hit someones head,
is completely different when you kick their chest.  And even more different if they
are resisting, or if they didnt see it coming.

 Being in full "Perfect" control of all your limbs... in Direction, Speed, Power, Braking...etc...
You gain better ability to do something like Shoot a basketball in the correct speed and
direction.  From your experience with distances, you gain better insight into depth perceptions,
timing, distances, mass effects..etc.

[shmokes]

"The arts" sound amazing, Xiaou.  I take back everything I said.  BTW, do you know the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique?  I would pay good money if you could teach me that.

[SavannahLion]

I had this nice long post and the cat hit the keyboard. 

You pussied out.

Duh! I live in a house with a 2 to 1 ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?--- ratio, I'm at a severe disadvantage.

[ChadTower]

The guys I played football with that were black belts were at a massive advantage.  They were damn near impossible to knock down without perfect tackling because of their balance.  They were very strong without being overmuscled.  Maybe more than anything else they were near unblockable on the line because of fantastic hand technique and leverage.  The martial arts training was an incredible asset in football.  The only other sport I saw transfer nearly as well was gymnastics.  The problem there was that those guys were all really small and that made up a lot of the difference. 

For those same guys, did that transfer to tennis?  No, not really.  tennis is a very specific skill.  How much of tennis skill transfers to every day life?  Very little, I'd say.  In all of the sports I ever played the only tennis skill I ever transferred was serving a tennis ball to serving a volleyball.  That really is similar, but other than that, tennis is a very isolated sport as are more stick-ball sports.  Hitting a baseball does not transfer to a golf ball or a hockey puck or vice versa.  In fact the mechanics of these sports conflict with each other.  I always had problems with keeping my front foot still in golf after 15 years of baseball.

Another thing just occurred to me as to why the martial arts may be a good choice for my older son.  He works very much at his own pace.  Some days that pace is fast, other days it is very slow.  That was a problem with him in team sports.  He has talent, was always one of the best hitters at his age, but his approach alienated teammates as he got older.  They didn't like the days where he didn't appear to care much and his defense would really suffer.  I brought this up with him a few times and gave him the choice of improving that or finding another sport - he chose another sport.  We spent a lot of this summer fishing and canoeing and hiking, which was great and a lot of fun, but he also needs something that is not so dependent on me to do 90% of the work.  He doesn't need the physical training nearly as much as he needs the mental training.

[saint]

"The arts" sound amazing, Xiaou.  I take back everything I said.  BTW, do you know the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique?  I would pay good money if you could teach me that.

I lack motivation to respond to you point by point, but in a nutshell in my experience you're really wrong on this one. Having played in my time football, baseball/softball, and coming to martial arts late in life in my mid-30's, I have to say I think Xiaou2 is pretty close to on target. My kids are martial arts students as well, but are also active in other sports. The martial arts have helped them develop physically and mentally and haven't led to them being shunned or singled out. My daughter is on the swim team as her main sport other than JuJitsu and is an excellent swimmer, as well as being active in band and a variety of other school extra-curricular activities. My son is active in soccer and is pretty good at it, with thoughts of going pro (he's 10, so take it with a grain of salt, but it's something he says he would like to do), and wants to pick up baseball next. My youngest is 6 so your concerns wouldn't be showing yet but he loves the martial art he takes (Kyukido).

edit - my daughter and son are brown belts, testing for black within the next year in JuJitsu. My daughter also takes Kyukido. My youngest son is a yellow-stripe (second belt) in Kyukido. My wife and I are brown belts testing in a few months (ack!) for black belt in JuJitsu, with low belts in Aikido, Hapkido, and Kyukido.

My kids don't seem unique as far as I can tell. The other students in the kids classes all seem to be active in other sports or other extra-curricular activities, are good students for the most part, and seem to have a good group of friends. There are the occasional loner kids, but the classes seem to be helping them with that problem, not causing it.

Dunno - I suspect either your direct experiences have been poor ones, or you have a misconception from mass media perhaps. Or perhaps my experiences have been the unique ones ... but I don't think that's the case. I think you're off-base here.

--- saint

[ChadTower]

saint, what is a reasonable picture of the financial commitment there?  That is 4 people with at least 3 of them studying multiple arts.  Ballpark is fine if you don't want to give specifics.  Feel free to decline to answer as well.

I haven't found a Jiu Jitsu school here that accepts anyone younger than a mid teen.  

[saint]

saint, what is a reasonable picture of the financial commitment there?  That is 4 people with at least 3 of them studying multiple arts.  Ballpark is fine if you don't want to give specifics.  Feel free to decline to answer as well.

I haven't found a Jiu Jitsu school here that accepts anyone younger than a mid teen.  

I don't mind talking finances but I honestly don't know, I'll have to check. The four of us taking JuJitsu do it at the YMCA. We are members so we get a discount but then we pay the membership fee so factor that in as you will. We pay $40/session, and they have six sessions per year. $240/student/year for JuJitsu, with a $20 fee for promotions.

The other arts we take are an "all-you-can-eat" deal at a dojo about 1/2 from us. Essentially we paid for taking Aikido for my wife and I. Because our ability to get there regularly was suspect, instead of paying for a length of time they gave us an alternative package where we paid for training up to a certain belt rank. Once we hit that rank, we have to pay again for the next set of belts. With that membership our kids are free, and while we are taking Aikido as our paid for art we can take any other classes the dojo offers as well. Our promotions in Aikido are paid for already as part of our membership, any promotions we receive in the other arts we have to pay for. It's a pretty good deal. I'll try to get the approximate costs when I'm home.

[ChadTower]

Hell that is a good deal.  I haven't run into anything like that around here.  I have seen combo discounts for multiple people but the lowest that has become is around $75/month/person.  I have not seen any schools that allow you to take an all you can eat approach, or if they have, they have not mentioned it during the sales pitch.

I'll check our Y schedule just in case but every time I have looked at it the adult schedule is very heavy with womens' classes and not much else.

[shmokes]

Shrug . . . I grew up in a fairly poor area.  Maybe the dynamics are different around there because of financial difficulties or just bad parenting.  Or maybe my sample is simply too small and not representative.  I still think that if you're only going to put your kid in one sport, martial arts is bad because I think learning mainstream sports is important.  And I think the idea that most people have of what is possible with martial arts is unrealistic and a bit goofy (thanks to fight choreography in movies).  If you're putting your kids in martial arts in addition to other things, it's fine.  If you're putting them in martial arts exclusively, that's too bad.  And if you're putting them in to protect them from bullies or kidnappers, that's just naive. 

[Xiaou2]

I still think that if you're only going to put your kid in one sport, martial arts is bad because I think learning mainstream sports is important.

 Why the heck is a mainstream sport important?!  Its a darn game.  Its not a career move.
There are plenty of people who put way too much value in a game which has a ball in it.

And I think the idea that most people have of what is possible with martial arts is unrealistic and a bit goofy (thanks to fight choreography in movies).  

 Considering how little experience you have, its no doubt why you think martial arts is
unrealistic.   There are plenty of artists that will prove you wrong any day of the week.

If you're putting them in martial arts exclusively, that's too bad.  

I would have gave Anything to have went into a martial arts class earlier in life, instead of the
crappy little league experience I had.

 I could have actually developed good skills, and spent more time in my later high school
years being Decent at gym sports.. instead of being the last picked kid.

And if you're putting them in to protect them from bullies or kidnappers, that's just naive.

 My buddies kid who is learning Akido, has been approached by bullies a few times.  Both times,
he made the bullies look like fools... and they no longer mess with him.

 As for stalker/kidnappers... thats a whole other ballgame.  All I can say, is that a kid with
martial arts training and spirit, will stand a better chance to get away, than one who does not.
It will also lead to them having a better awareness of the dangers, as well as a better
awareness of the people around them, and the surrounding environment.

 

BTW, do you know the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique?  I would pay good money if you could teach me that.

 I know the closest thing to it.  It called  "FaJin" ,in English:   "Explosive Power".

 Bruce Lee popularized it via a demonstration called the " One Inch Punch ".   However, it was the
highest secret of most Chinese arts.  Most especially, Tai Chi & Wing Chun.  (Although, not all
WC people develop this to very extreme levels)

 I had developed it to the point were I could easily knock a person out (a person who
deserved it)  with less than 6" distance from my fist to their forehead, with mma gloves on, and maybe only 30% power level used.  I could do this at Any time I chose, Easily.  (unlike a boxer
who "Might" score a KO once every 90 shots)

 Most people see the 1" punch, and imitate the movement as a push.  However, the real
power version will not move the person back much at all.  Instead, his internals will be
rocked with so much force... that it can rupture organs.
 
 The technique itself is more like a sneeze.  A controlled spasm of loose muscle, tightening
in certain sequence, all done in Fractions of Seconds.  Off by a fraction, and you may lose up
to 3/4 of the power output.  To the spectator, they may not even see it happen... or not think
much happened from it.  However, the person who is hit, will tell a different story.

 Fajin  is probably where the "Death Touch" myth came about.   As to the outside observer,
it would look like the master simply poked the opposition lightly.   When instead, the masters
entire body mass, traveling at like 400mph, will travel from foot, to hip, to arm, to finger... and
deep into the opponents organ or vein.   The force causing a rupture... which either killed the Op
instantly... or within a few days (depending on the severity of the internal bleeding).

 Most people would never believe this possible... And for most, thats true... As developing
good levels of Fajin takes a lot of dedicated and specialized training efforts.  Its not simple and
intuitive like a typical punch.

 You can get a slight idea of the power from watching a master like Chen Xiaowang  perform.
Watch as when he tightens... his whole body ripples with extra powerful waves of energy.
His legs even rippling from the forces generated.

 Ive been told that this Master has done a Zero inch demo to a guy once... with merely his
shoulder touching a person.  With a quick twitch, he managed to break the ribs of the
person being demo'd on.


 Also, I have read that certain Shaolin practitioners used a method called Poison Hand.  Where
they soaked their hands in something like Scorpion venom.  They supposedly had been given an
antidote - to keep the stuff from effecting themselves.. but a few strong pokes to an attacker...
could be really bad.   I have no idea if this is true.  It could have been trickery, such as they
merely attached a poison needed to a finger... or a poison soaked cloth..etc.  Or, it could be
entirely fabricated...    However, Fajin is the real deal.  It can turn an 80lb woman, into a lethal
machine, capable of taking out anyone, of any size.

[shmokes]

Saint?  Surely you don't think that I'm coming completely from left-field on this?

[Xiaou2]

 I believe Saint would investigate before making a blind assumption...

 There is information available about Fajin, and people who have developed or
felt it from a master.

 There are also hints of it, and its training methods in Bruce Lees writings.
And some more revealed by one of his students After lee passed away:

http://www.amazon.com/Bruce-Lees-Inch-Power-Punch/dp/0918642027/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257215976&sr=1-1


More?
"His volunteer was Bob Baker of Stockton, California. "I told Bruce not to do this type of demonstration again", he recalled. "When he punched me that last time, I had to stay home from work because the pain in my chest was unbearable."[61]"


http://www.martialtaichi.co.uk/articles/fajin.php

[saint]

Saint?  Surely you don't think that I'm coming completely from left-field on this?

No, not at all. I thought you were incorrectly dismissive of the value of martial arts. I concur whole-heartedly that there is a tremendous value in team sports. As a social activity, team sports such as baseball or football or basketball will serve you well in life more so than martial arts. At company picnics, you play softball. You don't throw each other around on the mat. On the other hand, when someone at the picnic has too much beer and picks a fight with you, martial arts will let you stop him with as much or as little force as you deem necessary, protecting not only you and your loved ones but also the drunk from his own actions.

I have my kids in both martial arts and team sports and non-physical extracurricular activities.

[Xiaou2]

 To counter...

   Just because a person learns a martial art, does not mean they are incapable of
teamwork, friendship, etc.   You dont have to play a sport to learn these things.

 In fact, there are plenty of instances were playing a sport badly, can cause
traumatic results.   As was my case.  Being picked on, pushed around, made fun
of, and made to feel worthless and inferior.

 I have friends, and have no problem making more.  And no, I dont go round
throwing people round at outings      (unless they ask for that     )

 I respect anyone's decisions to enroll their kids in sports, and heck I even liked
playing some of them even if I wasnt good at them... but you cant tell me that only
learning and art is damaging.  That simply is not true.

[shmokes]

Saint?  Surely you don't think that I'm coming completely from left-field on this?

No, not at all.

My comment was largely a response to the Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon stuff in Xiaou's post before mine.  Of course I believe that studying and practicing martial arts can make a person a better fighter.  I've seen UFC.  But UFC is what it's like.  The Matrix is not what it's like.  Children, and Xiaou, have this backwards.  But, whatever.  I suppose thinking that you will grow up and be able to catch poison darts out of mid-air with chopsticks or balance weightlessly on the tip of a sword held in someone's outstretched arm is no more unrealistic than dreaming of playing in the NBA.  Well, of course it is infinitely more unrealistic since you have impossibility on the one hand and (very low) probability on the other.  But anyway . . . yeah, as I said, many people have an unrealistic and a bit goofy idea of what is possible with martial arts.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is usefulness.  If martial arts were what as they are portrayed in popular media, I would ask where to sign up.  But they're not.  And in my admittedly limited experience they do not save kids from bullies.  And I just think that there are better options out there, at least if you're going to put your kid in only one sport.  Swimming, for example.  You said your daughter swims.  THAT's one that fits Chad's suspicions about me.  I didn't learn to swim till I was 10 or 11, when I finally had lessons one summer.  I have always been a weak swimmer, and even after lessons later in life and quite a lot of practice as an adult, I cannot swim long distances.  Four laps at my university's pool tucker me out completely but I see other swimmers go for 50, including people who aren't in nearly as good shape as me.  I REALLY wish my parents had got me swimming earlier. 

In the end, I think that martial arts don't provide what many parents and children are looking for (cure for bullying and magical powers, respectively).  I think being good at mainstream sports often goes a long way to curing bullying because it helps kids be cool and fit in, and nothing builds confidence like being cool, and nothing cures bullying like confidence and being cool. 

[Xiaou2]

I've seen UFC.  But UFC is what it's like.

 

 - No.  UFC is useless slop compared to Good martial artists training.

The Matrix is not what it's like.  Children, and Xiaou, have this backwards.

 - Ive plenty of people to vouch for what Ive accomplished in the martial arts,
and how I maintained traditional form instead of Bunny Hopping slop.

  But, whatever.  I suppose thinking that you will grow up and be able to catch poison darts out of mid-air with chopsticks or balance weightlessly on the tip of a sword held in someone's outstretched arm is no more unrealistic than dreaming of playing in the NBA.

 - Umm.. I punch and kick hard.  I dont do magic.  I train on wall mounted sand bags,
and a 10lb bad filled with Steel BBs.  It called Realism.   Training on a heavy bag isnt
realistic.  They are too "Gushy".     I also kick 4" diameter  3mm thick steel pipes.
These are realistic tools for real Combat situations. IE: A Need to break a leg real fast...

 Unlike MMA, I train to Parry, Redirect, Block.  Amazing Magic ehh?   

 

Well, of course it is infinitely more unrealistic since you have impossibility on the one hand and (very low) probability on the other.  But anyway . . . yeah, as I said, many people have an unrealistic and a bit goofy idea of what is possible with martial arts.

 - Ohh, considering Ive fought many sparring matches against many various
arts, I think I know a LOT more about them than your uneducated Ideas.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is usefulness.  If martial arts were what as they are portrayed in popular media, I would ask where to sign up.  But they're not.

 -  Your girl friend being grasped by a guy right in front of you by a punk or two.
A belligerent drunk who pushes or swings at you.  A terrorist on an Airplane...
A guy beating a child up in the middle of the street...   What will you do?  And will it
be too late???

 But more importantly...

  I can tell you almost immediately, that when you are walking down
the city streets and or a darkly lit parking lot.. you are feeling nervous and maybe
even scared.   When some punk gets rambunctious in a public area... you cower,
run, and your heart feels like it will explode from your chest. 

 I dont have that feeling anymore.  And if I had been in school without that feeling...
I may have been more at ease, with my mind more focused on school work instead
of the next bullying.

And in my admittedly limited experience they do not save kids from bullies.

 

 Already refuted.  Bullies like to pick on the weak, as they are Easy targets.  A Bully is
a spineless soulless person.   They sink to the lowest levels.   Proof of this can
be found all over the place.

  And I just think that there are better options out there, at least if you're going to put your kid in only one sport.  Swimming, for example. 

 - Swimming takes a while to learn.  For most of us, its not a sporting event.  Its something they do in gym class every so often, and something you do in the summer to keep cool and have fun.

 I learned it late in school, but I learned it.  I still had plenty of time to learn the arts.
In fact, much more time.. as finding an open pool isnt always easy to do.  Nor not
always what you want to do often.

In the end, I think that martial arts don't provide what many parents and children are looking for (cure for bullying and magical powers, respectively). 

 Martial arts bring focus and awareness to children on a level that typical sports just
can not compare with.  As the arts are so much more complex, and are "Self" related.
As such, this inner awareness soon spreads outwards as well.   I suspect it forms
higher intellect levels as well.. especially when taught young.

 The lessons teach Willpower.  Triumph through hard work and dedication.  They
Instill confidence like nothing else does.  They quiet the noisy mind... leaving more
room for concentration and focus on school work.  And so much more.  Sorry... but
playing football just doesnt reach this level of returns.

I think being good at mainstream sports often goes a long way to curing bullying because it helps kids be cool and fit in,

 Wrong.  I played little league, and was horrible.  I was hated just as much as before...
if not even more so... for ruining the teams chances.

 

and nothing builds confidence like being cool, and nothing cures bullying like confidence and being cool.

 You certainly are not cool...

 And again, I can vouch this as false.  If you are bad at a sport, you will not be
considered Cool.  And no matter if you did make a good catch or something... the
Bully does not care.  They still see you as the weak target with brilliant past history
of laughable moments.

 Im not saying martial arts can always solve a bully problem.  However, it can help
considerably to build up a "dont mess with him"  rep. 

 I noticed a big difference in treatment when I told people that I had training in
the arts.  Respect level.  Some were even a little fearful / nervous.  Others felt safer
in my company. Few occasions asked for my assistance in a situation (sister needing
help moving out from Ex bf place).  Some are amazed at what Ive shown them,
and wish they had the ability themselves.  Many get excited to see demos,
and or want me to show their children some things.  Some beg for lessons.
 
 Few people have ever challenged me, knowing what I do.  Usually only a few
drunks, to which I laugh off.   The few others Ive talked down from fighting... However,
I didnt feel threatened because of the arts, and I stood a better change had
talking failed.

 
 Being that the Arts is about self perfection.. you grow much faster than in a typical
sport.  Your progress is not mocked or degraded.  You gain progress quickly, and
can see those results clearly.  You gain confidence in yourself, By yourself,.. not from
other peoples opinions of you.  There is no better confidence builder I know... and I
couldnt tell you anything else that teaches the value of hard work, as well as the
morals (Mercy, Code of conduct...) ... and value of life, and meaning of death.

[ChadTower]

Distance swimming is very hard.  Those people who swim 50 laps without a problem took a long time and practice to get to that point.  Just the conditioning to do that is very impressive.  The technique for distance is not easy for even someone like a lifeguard to get right without hours upon hours of practice.  Trust me, I learned the hard way training for that race, even someone who swims very well is going to get slapped hard with the reality of distance swimming.  I only got to the point where I could do it but was horribly slow and I was only training for a half mile swim portion.

Comparing the average person's participation in a martial art with the UFC or a movie is just ignorant of what they are really doing.  While you're at it you may as well give up on football since none of us will ever be Adrian Peterson or Paul Crewe.

[shardian]

Distance swimming is very hard.  Those people who swim 50 laps without a problem took a long time and practice to get to that point.  Just the conditioning to do that is very impressive.  The technique for distance is not easy for even someone like a lifeguard to get right without hours upon hours of practice.  Trust me, I learned the hard way training for that race, even someone who swims very well is going to get slapped hard with the reality of distance swimming.  I only got to the point where I could do it but was horribly slow and I was only training for a half mile swim portion.

The swim team is usually practicing in the big pool while we have our toddler in the family pool at the YMCA. I find it fascinating to see how people can swim non-stop like that. I've seen a few of the high school/ college level swimmers get in there and go full out non-stop for a 20-30 minutes! I'm a pretty good swimmer, but I apparently have 'short distance' form (and I'm fat). I do a handful of laps and am about ready to die of exhaustion. It was the same way even back when I was in shape to the point of being able to run a few miles non-stop. I still could only swim a few laps before my arms/legs locked up.

I would LOVE to learn how to do that, and it sucks that swimming was not available to me when I was a kid. I hope to put my daughter in the swim program at the Y when she is around 4.

I would choose soccer/swimming over any other sport at this point. The last choice I would put her in is baseball/softball.

[shmokes]

I'm not comparing the average person's participation with UFC or a movie.  I'm saying that UFC represents something that is theoretically obtainable, while the movie does not.  So UFC is more like the NBA.  

My point was that the things kids think they can learn with martial arts training are often total ---smurf-poop---.  And it's not really ignorance that causes them to have these ideas, except in the strictest sense of the word.  It's just typical childhood dreaming combined with a consistently fantastical representation of martial arts in the media.

Also . . . trust me, I'm not just comparing myself to the swim nuts.  I'm really a comparatively weak swimmer to the average person, and I have found myself on more than one occasion having to sit something out, like when I'm at a small lake with my friends and a bunch decide to swim across the lake.  But I'm like you.  Running a few miles is no problem for me.  But I'll be damned if swimming doesn't just kick ---my bottom---.

By the way, there's no need to wait.  My little girl just turned 3 in August and she's already diving for rings and she can swim with her face in the water and then roll onto her back after every 4 strokes for air.  I'm astounded at how early they are able to learn.  Also, I agree about soccer.  I think it's the most useful in terms of training skills applicable to every sport, and it's also one that can realistically be started much earlier than a lot of the others because the basic concept is easy.

[ChadTower]

I was always bored with soccer.  Really, really bored.  It wasn't much different than plain running.  Every instinct I had when approaching the guy with the ball screamed knock him on his ass.  I was much better suited to hockey and football.

[shmokes]

or martial arts

[saint]

My comment was largely a response to the Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon stuff in Xiaou's post before mine.  Of course I believe that studying and practicing martial arts can make a person a better fighter.  I've seen UFC.  But UFC is what it's like.  The Matrix is not what it's like.  Children, and Xiaou, have this backwards.  But, whatever.  I suppose thinking that you will grow up and be able to catch poison darts out of mid-air with chopsticks or balance weightlessly on the tip of a sword held in someone's outstretched arm is no more unrealistic than dreaming of playing in the NBA.  Well, of course it is infinitely more unrealistic since you have impossibility on the one hand and (very low) probability on the other.  But anyway . . . yeah, as I said, many people have an unrealistic and a bit goofy idea of what is possible with martial arts.

I don't know of *anyone* in the various dojos I've been in who thinks like this. I have seen some pretty incredible things. I'm a 41 year old man who started martial arts in his mid 30's, and I can do handstands, flips in the air, cartwheels, and can clear 8' in a dive roll without touching the ground (not an exaggeration by the way, we measured) -- things I couldn't do before martial arts.

I've never met anyone who thinks martial arts will allow them to defy gravity, walk on trees, catch bullets with their teeth, or any other silly things, and I've only met a couple of folks who want to actually do MMC type of fighting.

I challenge your contention that many folks have an unrealistic and bit goofy idea of what's possible with martial arts. I suspect anyone who holds those kinds of ideas isn't actually a martial arts practitioner.

In the end, I think that martial arts don't provide what many parents and children are looking for (cure for bullying and magical powers, respectively).  I think being good at mainstream sports often goes a long way to curing bullying because it helps kids be cool and fit in, and nothing builds confidence like being cool, and nothing cures bullying like confidence and being cool. 

I think you're wrong about the impact of being a martial artist and your susceptibility to bullies. If nothing else martial arts builds self confidence and helps you avoid looking like a victim. Then, if you *are* picked on the ability to defend yourself is valuable. I could give you several stories of real life situations with real people (not uber-fighters, just regular folks with some martial arts training) using their martial arts to defuse a situation or to defend themselves or someone else.

[shardian]

That's about the same thing anyone who doesn't understand the game says...

I thought the same way until I took an 'easy A' soccer class in college, then played intramurals. I liked it as a kid (Tab Ramos FTW!), but I couldn't play locally. I LOVED it after getting to play with and against some actual talented folks.

Schmokes: We've had our daughter in the pool on a regular basis since she was 3 months old or so. We've been slacking lately though. They're real sticklers (read that as prudish morons) about flotation devices, which inhibits her from learning at the Y. While at a hotel pool recently, we put some arm floaties on her and she swam all over the pool on her own - jumping in and everything at 2.5 years. She wouldn't let anyone even touch her she was being so independent! Only thing they allow at the Y are those cumbersome built in float suits. They are useless, and I'd bet money she'd drown in one of those things if on her own the way they float her. We haven't been back to the Y since the hotel pool thing, so it will be interesting to see how she does. I fully expect her to be swimming laps in the family pool 2' end by the time she is 3.5

I was always bored with soccer.  Really, really bored.  It wasn't much different than plain running.  Every instinct I had when approaching the guy with the ball screamed knock him on his ass.  I was much better suited to hockey and football.

Soccer really just amazes me.  The ball is magnetic and attracts every player that's within 50 feet of it. 

Otherwise they stand around doing nothing.


All the way from little kids to professionals.


 

[saint]

That's about the same thing anyone who doesn't understand the game says...

I thought the same way until I took an 'easy A' soccer class in college, then played intramurals. I liked it as a kid (Tab Ramos FTW!), but I couldn't play locally. I LOVED it after getting to play with and against some actual talented folks.

True that! I've got a new appreciation for the game watching my son play through the years. A lot of strategy and tactics involved.

[saint]

Sure, and there's strategy and tactics in baseball, too.  It doesn't make that sport interesting.

No, but it does make this statement:

Soccer really just amazes me.  The ball is magnetic and attracts every player that's within 50 feet of it. 

Otherwise they stand around doing nothing.

All the way from little kids to professionals.

flat out wrong.

[ChadTower]

I appreciate the strategy and tactics in soccer.  I appreciate the strategy and tactics in golf too.  Don't want to play that either.

[shmokes]

Singling out soccer as magnetball doesn't even make any sense.  The same thing applies to every team sport.  You can't just have a clusterfuck of everybody scrambling for the ball like smear the queer or capture the flag.  That would leave the rest of the court/field wide open.  Of course only the players near the ball go after it.  The other players are minding their positions just like the goalie minds the goal rather than running across the field after the ball.   

[ChadTower]

Jim's soccer days

[Chadwick]

Chad, go spend some time on www.bullshido.net

It is a forum full of martial artists and instructors who try to sift the mystical BS from real, effective MA's.  They don't hold back either.  If a school/instructor/art is teaching or claiming something that is utter crap (which many do), they will call them out.  You will get the truth about any and all arts/instructors/schools there.

Use the search function to find threads about schools in your area or arts that are taught in your area.  Don't buy into the *bullshido*... get the truth.  Some of the styles heavily pimped in this thread are not anywhere near as effective as their practitioners would have you believe; they might look pretty, but pretty =/= effective.  Point sparring =/= effective.  Running compliant drills with your partner who is not resisting you =/= effective.   Any art that claims they have the REALLY REAL, super-secret, too deadly for MMA techniques is most likely bullshido.

Want to learn discipline, get in shape, build character, build self-esteem, build respect for others, make friends, have fun?.... just about any MA with a good instructor can provide this.

Want to learn to fight and defend yourself?
BJJ
Muay Thai
Judo
Boxing
Wrestling
Kyokushin Karate

That's not a complete list, but those are all good arts with no BS that will actually teach you how to fight.

[Xiaou2]

 The Mob squad speaketh.

 Funny, cause after a sparring visit to the local Kyokushin Karate place here...
the instructor wanted me to teach them some Wing Chun.

 Bullshido is just a bunch of kids with too much time on their hands, and nothing
better to do than to try to bash other arts with crappy and downright Wrong
arguments.

 

[Xiaou2]

 Its like this:

 Some people like to cook hamburgers.. cause its easy and fast, and fills your tummy.

 Some TRY to cook a Gormet meal, and fail many times in the process.

 The  Burgershidos  then  Bash the Gormets,  saying they cant cook for crap...
so their recipes must be useless.

 The thing is.. that the people who DO put in enough time and effort Can learn
to cook far better than anything the Burgershidos can make.

 
 So, it  "boils"  down to how much time and effort you want to expend... and what
kind of meal you want to end up with.


 Kungfu has a Lot more to learn and perfect, and not everyone has the time to
do so.  That does not mean it doesnt work well.  In fact, Ive proven its worth
many times over...  but then again, Im a dedicated and passionate person.
Not everyone is willing to stand on one leg in a bank while waiting.. so that the post
leg will be stable when you throw a powerful kick...

 

 

[Chadwick]

Clearly, you have THE REAL WING CHUN.

[shmokes]

Not everyone is willing to stand on one leg in a bank while waiting..
 

That kind of discipline is hard to find.

[ChadTower]

That kind of discipline is hard to find.

I don't think you find that discipline.  One either has it or does not.

I also don't think debating the street effectiveness of one martial art over another has any bearing at all on what I'm trying to do.  I'm not saying people here shouldn't be discussing it - it's a free thread - but I'm not looking to set my kids on a path to be Bruce Lee.  If they want to do that once they are old enough to make their own lifestyle decisions, cool, but I don't think the ability to end a fight in 3 seconds vs 30 seconds is part of the equation for an 8 year old.   

Something in the middle seems appropriate.  They don't need to be Jedi but they also don't need to be Cobra Kai.

[Hoopz]

Something in the middle seems appropriate.  They don't need to be Jedi but they also don't need to be Cobra Kai.

You can have gourmet hamburgers too.  Gourmet cooking isn't rocket science.  There's happy medium for most things like you're looking for.

[mpm32]

Ha Chad I take the blame for the thread going off the rails.  I posted about my experience with black belts when in fact it had nothing to do with the reason my daughter takes karate which is for the fun of it and not to kick someones azz.  And look where this thread went.

Sorry. 

[RayB]