kids and martial arts?

[ChadTower]

Anyone here have kids studying martial arts?  Karate, Judo, Tae Kwan Do, etc?

I have two boys, 8 and 10.  The younger one loves athletics and is on the small end of his age.  The older one doesn't care much and is way on the big (not fat) side of his age.  I have not found them a school yet and there are quite a few in the area.  I'm interested in the experiences of others with kids in this area if you're willing to share.  

[mpm32]

My daughter, 9 started around three months ago, she loves it.  Most schools will let you do a tryout class before joining.  She did a tryout at one school but didn't really like the atmosphere and teachers. 

We tried another place and she like that so that's where she goes now.

[ChadTower]

I'm seeing a range of around $75-125 per kid with a combo discount for multiple.  Same there?

[EightBySix]

My kids do Jujitsu, and have since about 5 or 6. At that age it's more self defence/stranger awareness etc. My younger boy likes to think he's a ninja ;-)

I wouldn't worry about the kids size as all of the pupils will be different at that age. If he can go with a friend, so much the better.

Some martial arts focus more on mental and physical discipline than others - Karate springs to mind. Could be a bit intimidating for younger students. Try and focus on the fun element to get them hooked.

[HaRuMaN]

I'm seeing a range of around $75-125 per kid with a combo discount for multiple.  Same there?

Send me your kids, $200, and some Turtle Wax(tm).  I'll teach 'em Karate! 

[ChadTower]

My kids do Jujitsu, and have since about 5 or 6. At that age it's more self defence/stranger awareness etc. My younger boy likes to think he's a ninja ;-)

Heh.  The only close Jiu Jitsu school here is Brazillian and doesn't take students this age.  Not until they are teeangers.

I wouldn't worry about the kids size as all of the pupils will be different at that age. If he can go with a friend, so much the better.

Yeah... I did mention that more as a context setter than as any type of determining factor.  One kid is guaranteed to love it and work hard and the other may or may not depending on what mood he's in that day.

[mpm32]

I think we pay $140/month.  She goes 2x a week though so that works out to be $17.50 a class which isn't unreasonable.

She's doing Tang Soo Do Karate and they do stress discipline and the mastery of the forms although I look at some of the kids, even those that are higher belts, flailing around with no regard to their form - lol

She already knew how to punch correctly, I used to box and showed her how to stand and punch.  Wasn't to smart though because she always wants to spar and her tiny fists hurt.

I don't know how much karate will help in a real fight.  In my brawling days I had no problem with several that said they were black belts. - Could have been BSing though.

In her level they do non-contact sparing in class, which I don't see as being very useful.  I'd rather have them padded up and contact sparing - maybe they do that later though.

[ChadTower]

Seems pretty standard to not have contact sparring at 9 years old around here.  I haven't seen any contact sparring at that age in the schools I have looked at.

[mpm32]

Ha, you're right they probably shouldn't but I'd be more entertained. - lol

[ChadTower]

If you want actual contact just put them in the backyard and let them think you aren't watching.   

[EightBySix]

My 9 yr old does contact sparring. No head shots though.

[Xiaou2]

 I suggest a tiered program:


 1) Taekwando  :Merely for the advanced kicking, flexibility, internal toughening, and endurance levels. Poor hand tactics however... and purely based in sport.   Better kicking ability than
typical Karate classes.    Stay in this art for only maybe 2yrs tops.


 2) Akido   :My friends kids took it, young boy & younger girl,  and they love it.
Has plenty of things to keep busy with:  Sensitivity training, locks, throws, weapons, and more.
Much more advanced than the typical watered down sport arts...  However, not every kid
has the patience/focus  level at certain ages for this.

 Unlike Karate (and or some other "Hard-Arts") ... where the larger person has a greater advantage... Akido teaches how to flow around brute force, and use it against that person.

 
 3)  Wing Chun  :In their teens... for the very advanced stuff.  Similar to Akido with its use of
flowing.. but is a much more aggressive and advanced art.   Techniques are very precise,
and require a lot more dedication and focus to master them.   Very combat effective in
only a few years time.

 

 Wushu might also be a fun consideration for the younger set.  However, as cool as Wushu
can be... it no longer is based on real martial arts.  Its more or less advanced acrobatics now.


 I reccomend not staying too many years in the basic arts.  They basically just repeat the
same things over and over again.  While its good to get a solid foundation, too much is
simply redundant,  and you could be spending efforts on learning more techniques and skill
sets in other arts instead.

[SavannahLion]

I don't know how much karate will help in a real fight.  In my brawling days I had no problem with several that said they were black belts. - Could have been BSing though.

Because most of them are ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- little ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?---. I thought for a long time that it was the dojo threatening to kick them out if they ever fought someone that wasn't in the, "art." But after leaving one of the little marshmallow ---punks--- inside a soda machine (long story) I figured it was something more. I got my first real clue when I saw two kids from a different school truly wailing on each other the following year. Yeah, they were both kicked out of both schools for the fight, but man, what a fight! A no holds barred fight between 18 year olds is a sight to see. 

I finally got to talking to someone who owns a school that really clued me in that the schools aren't created equal. I always figured a discipline from one school is about the same as the same discipline from another school, right? Heh, shows what I know. 

So in a rare moment. How does one know the school is teaching the kids properly? I'm not interested in shelling out cash to a school willing to "advance" someone just because they pay the money. I understand it's a good idea to let the kid pick the school, but if (s)he picks a school that does a lot of cracker eating, it's kind of pointless to send them. 

[EightBySix]

There's another angle here. Whether or not a kid finds him/herself needing to use their skills, the fact that they could if they needed to gives them a confidence. I think this kind of confidence means they are less likely to be bullied/picked on in the first place.

[danny_galaga]

There's another angle here. Whether or not a kid finds him/herself needing to use their skills, the fact that they could if they needed to gives them a confidence. I think this kind of confidence means they are less likely to be bullied/picked on in the first place.

Possibly. But i couldn't fight my way out of a wet paper bag, and i virtually never got bullied or picked on in school. In real life I'm a below the radar kinda guy.

[EightBySix]

Possibly. But i couldn't fight my way out of a wet paper bag, and i virtually never got bullied or picked on in school. In real life I'm a below the radar kinda guy.

Same here. I wonder if that's something most forum members have in common - growing up in arcades... Happier in front of Starwars cabs than fights in the playground...

[ChadTower]

Victims don't choose to be bullied.  Maybe the primary reason you guys didn't get bullied is just the luck of not having been chosen.  I moved around a lot as a kid, had an accent, and was on the smallish side.  I got chosen a few times.  I was never bullied more than once or twice by the same kid, though, because I was willing to take a beating to prove I was a very difficult target.  Won some fights, lost some fights.  Nothing a bully did to me was going to be as bad as stuff I had been through at home so I wasn't afraid to get the confrontation over with.

That said, my kids don't have any issues like that, I'm just looking for positive things to add to their lives.

[Dexter]

Chad,

I used to be a Tae Kwon Do instructor and trained kids from 4 to 12 years of age. It is absolutely the best thing you can do for them. It teaches discipline, teamworking and respect, as well as the obvious physical benefits. We'd frequently teach 'trouble' kids as well as regular ones, all kinds really. Very rewarding from a personal standpoint, but seriously, DO IT!

By the way I'm not an expert on the other styles, but where Tae Kwon Do is involved there are two main types. ITF is a more militaristic/traditional style (think north korean soldiers in pyongyang square) whereas WTF is the olympic/sporty one.

[ChadTower]

Thanks for the tip... most of the teachers I have asked have all said the same thing.  Don't choose an art, choose a teacher.  A great teacher in an art other than your initial preference is always better than a mediocre teacher to start with, I'm told.

[shardian]

Chad,

I used to be a Tae Kwon Do instructor and trained kids from 4 to 12 years of age. It is absolutely the best thing you can do for them. It teaches discipline, teamworking and respect, as well as the obvious physical benefits. We'd frequently teach 'trouble' kids as well as regular ones, all kinds really. Very rewarding from a personal standpoint, but seriously, DO IT!

By the way I'm not an expert on the other styles, but where Tae Kwon Do is involved there are two main types. ITF is a more militaristic/traditional style (think north korean soldiers in pyongyang square) whereas WTF is the olympic/sporty one.

I agree with this...depending on the teacher. My instructor was a punk. I wouldn't have put my young Child with him. However, we tested in Charleston at a Grand Master's studio. That was fun! I had to come on a make-up day for a belt test one time. It was intimidating because I tested privately with the Grand Master himself!
Before my test, I got to watch him instruct his class. There were several 4-5 year olds he worked with personally. He was amazing with them. So, I would observe a few classes to see how the instructor works with younger kids before even bringing your kids for a test run.

[shmokes]

Most of the kids I knew who were in martial arts were more likely to get bullied.  And the martial arts training didn't help in the slightest.  If you don't want your kid to be bullied, get them in soccer and football and basketball and baseball early.  Make sure they are not awkward in sports.  If you don't want your kid to be bullied I think it will be much more effective to help them learn to excel socially, fit in with others, etc., than to teach them how to lay the beat down.  And, in reality, your kids are probably never going to use their karate skills to lay the beat down on anybody outside the controlled environment of a dojo or whatever.

Seriously . . . marital arts is a sport dominated by the uncool.  If you don't want your kid to be bullied, help him be cool.  Don't put him in a sport that only serves to single him out as the weird kid.  When he gets picked last for baseball at recess, no amount of karate chopping is going to make him feel better about that.  And it is this social awkwardness more than anything that will make him the target of bullies.  And it is this social awkwardness, rather than some deficiency in self-defense skills, that will give him a lack of self-confidence (which will probably also keep him from actually testing his mettle against any real bully).

Ya know . . . maybe martial arts is fine.  But it's kind of goofy and useless.  Put your kid in mainstream sports.  Hell . . . put him in plain old boxing.  But don't put him in tai kwon do or kung fu or chai tea.  At the very least don't do it in lieu of useful things.  Even if everything pans out exactly according to plan, and the school bully comes after him, only to have his ass handed to him by your little karate champ, your kid's still going to be the weird kid. He's not going to be a hero.  He's not going to gain friends.  The hero is the kid that runs down the fly ball and then get's it back to first base for a double.  That kid doesn't get bullied.  That kid gets the girls.

Don't fight your childhood demons vicariously.  

edit: spelling

[shmokes]

I don't mean singled out for being in karate.  They will be singled out for not being good at cool things.  They will be singled out for being the Star Wars kid.

[ChadTower]

Maybe I had a different experience as a kid, but I did tae kwon do a couple years and I always had classmates that did martial arts... I don't recall any of them being singled out for it, but I don't recall any of them doing the "I'm tough because I know karate!" routine.

I saw a black belt friend get "bullied" once because the dude knew he wasn't going to do anything.  Here bullying pretty much consisted of getting in his face and egging him on if you want to call that bullying.  The guy sure as hell wasn't going to touch him. Standing there smirking at someone isn't exactly humiliating.

The point of the thread, until bullying was brought up, didn't have anything to do with avoiding bullies.  It just sort of went there because that's the primary purpose a lot of people see for the martial arts.  It interests me for my kids as a positive lifestyle through fitness, confidence, accomplishment, and discipline.  It isn't an alternative to traditional sports unless they would make that choice themselves.

Actually, my older son already made that choice, and part of what I'm doing is finding him that alternative.

[shardian]

I only knew one guy who did the "I'm tough because I do Tae Kwon Doe"...he really was tough though.

[Grasshopper]

Most of the kids I knew who were in martial arts were more likely to get bullied.  And the martial arts training didn't help in the slightest.  If you don't want your kid to be bullied, get them in soccer and football and basketball and baseball early.  Make sure they are not awkward in sports.

Well that's fine if the kid already has an interest in those sports. But if you're asking the kid to do things he's not really interested in, or doesn't even like, just to fit in and minimise the possibility of being bullied then that's sending out a really bad message. You're essentially saying that the problem lies not with the bully but with the bully's victim. It's a form of appeasement and in the long run will probably do just as much harm to the kid's self esteem as being bullied.

As the slightly sinister Japanese saying goes - The nail that sticks out gets hammered in. Is that the type of value you want to promote?

I believe it's more constructive to encourage kids to be themselves and participate in activities they actually enjoy. And if that happens to lead to bullying then just encourage them to stand up for themselves.

[jamesjones626]

i would say to put your kid in either a muay thai class or a boxing class if your looking for a martial art thats practicly in a real life fight.  Aikido and such doesnt really do much on the streets.  Wrestling or a bjj is cool too though.

[Grasshopper]

i would say to put your kid in either a muay thai class or a boxing class if your looking for a martial art thats practicly in a real life fight.  Aikido and such doesnt really do much on the streets.  Wrestling or a bjj is cool too though.

I agree. The vast majority of martial arts classes won’t make you into a better fighter. If that’s a kid’s primary motivation then he’s going to end up disappointed. Most classes, and especially the ones aimed at kids, will only allow semi-contact sparring to take place for safety reasons, and some don’t allow any contact at all.

It doesn’t matter how effective the chosen martial art is, or how good the instructor is, simply punching the air and memorising martial arts moves will only take you so far. It might make you fitter, more disciplined etc. but if you want to be a better fighter then there’s no substitute for full contact sparring. If you’re not used to the sensation of being hit and reacting to another person then you’re going to be useless in a real fight.

[Xiaou2]

Muay Thai teaches  "slow-as-heck"  but powerful kicks.  The problem is... nobody with
any skill will let you kick them like that.    At least with TKD, you will get better kicking
ability.

 Boxing teaches you how to get hit in the head hundreds of times over the course of
a few minutes time.

 They at least build up the persons internal toughness...


 Akido is purely defensive.  Meaning, its only really going to work well against someone who
Really wants to take you out... not someone who picks jabs at you.  IE: Full power,
Full committal.   In such a case, Akido becomes dangerous.

 Wing Chun on the other hand.. is much more adaptive to multiple combat modes.  From
the jabbers, to full commital moves, and also encourages the artists to be Offensive
rather than merely passive or defensive.  However, it does not really have non-aggressive
moves like Akido's many joint locks.  Its also not very often you can find a school that teaches
younger kids this style.  (I personally started at age 20)

 Tai Chi has "Chi Na" locks  (among many other great things)... but not many people teach the
combat version of Tai Chi... And, many people just do not have the patience for developing and learning Tai Chi.

 
 Unlike boxing, in WC, you learn to redirect incoming attacks.  Boxing's Slips are not very
safe - and the footwork alone isnt conductive to real combat.

 BJJ has nothing to defend against a good striker.   Their tactics usually involve a very risky
entry in order to get the advantage.

 Wrestling doesnt really teach combat at all.


 All that said..  whatever someone does, will gain advantages.  Such as getting a very strong
internal muscles from wrestling / bjj.  Or a very strong punch from boxing.

 
 Merely for the comment from James, I will say that after developing WC, I was taking on
fighters from multiple styles, over 2x my mass, and making them look bad.   
WC is probably one of the most street effective arts - IF - the person develops it properly.

[Vamp RN]

I spent about 6 years of my childhood going to Tae Kwon Do class. It was a really great experience.  As soon as my daughter gets a little older I think that she will start.  She already asks me all the time about it, but I want to wait until she is about 9 or so.  It is great for self discipline, confidence, health, and is just a whole lot of fun. 

[Hoopz]

There are a number of things that children can do to help with discipline, confidence, trust, teamwork etc.  More than 90% of what they can learn and experience is guided by the adults involved.  Good instructors, volunteers, coaches etc are the key.  

I'm sure we've all experienced bad coaches/adult leaders to some degree.  Finding the right one will make all the difference.  Whatever discipline you choose will end up being the "right" one if the instructor excels.

I doubt anyone who had a great experience will say that they had a bad coach/instructor yet had a great experience.  Generally, it's the other way:  bad adult leader=bad experience. 

Well, our resident naysayer and expert on everything will chime in that he excelled despite a bad leader because of how great he is.   

Just my two cents.

[shmokes]

Well that's fine if the kid already has an interest in those sports. But if you're asking the kid to do things he's not really interested in, or doesn't even like, just to fit in and minimise the possibility of being bullied then that's sending out a really bad message.

Not really.  They're important skills, and when your kid gets into high school and looks like a retard in gym class and is constantly embarrassed he will very much regret that you were so kind and understanding and left everything up to him as a kid.  When he gets into college and his friends are playing rec softball or soccer and need another player but he is too embarrassed to get on the team he will wish he had a little bit of encouragement when he was just a dumb kid.  Your kid very likely would just as soon not learn math or grammar either, but you're not going to let him just play videogames instead simply because he enjoys one and not the other. 

In the beginning my daughter hated her swimming classes.  Should I have found something that she liked better rather than insisting that she continue with it (she absolutely loves them now, btw)?

[ChadTower]

There is a lot of ground between being the star running back and being "a retard in gym class", shmokes.

Am I the only one who finds his phrasing more revealing than anything else?

[SavannahLion]

Shmokes, while I agree with you on a lot of points. Martial arts isn't truly interesting until they get to be adults, the thing I'm after is that I want my kid to come home at the end of the day. The oldest only has to travel four blocks to get to school but those four blocks are far more harrowing than the ten miles it took for me to travel from my old home to my old school.

Jaycee Dugard's kidnapping wasn't that far from my old home and it's precisely the sort of thing I want to avoid. Especially since the kid just doesn't get it. To her, Dugard is just a character on TV, like Hanna Montana.

After a lot of thought, maybe martial arts isn't the answer. Perhaps urban survival training of some sort?

edit: fixed bad code

[shmokes]

There is a lot of ground between being the star running back and being "a retard in gym class", shmokes.

Maybe, but there's a helluva lot more ground between air punch/kick dances and putting that stuff to use in real life the way it is portrayed in movies.  An infinite amount of ground, in fact, because your kid may just as well aspire to become as powerful as Dumbledore.  Your kids don't realize that no matter how much they train, even if they become the best in the world, they will never fight like the people in The Matrix and Bloodsport, etc..   

Although I thought it would be awesome to be able to fight like Van Damm as a kid, I've never been in a martial arts class.  I did know a few kids who were, though, and all of them were the types who were completely inept at recess and later at gym class. 

And Savannah, if martial arts is unlikely to keep your kid from being bullied by other kids (it is), it's not going to stop an adult from abducting her.  Do you really think that 11-year-old Jaycee Dugard would have been fine if only she knew karate?  Are you joking?

[ChadTower]

...of course, there is a whole lot more to martial arts than the ability to fight, as people keep saying over and over again.

I don't know what kids who have been studying a martial art well don't have carryover.  Every kid I knew grewing up that did was stronger, had strong flexibility, strong balance, and strong focus.  They were usually really good teammates, too, because they had respect for the sport. 

Exactly what part of physical training made up of coordination, flexibility, and focus makes one inept at kickball, shmokes?

[shmokes]

The lack of playing kickball.

[Grasshopper]

Shmokes, I don't know where you're getting this idea that learning martial arts somehow prevents a kid from learning and potentially being good at football, basketball etc. Why not just introduce the kid to a range of sports (including the aforementioned) and let him (or her) decide which sport (if any) he wishes to pursue. If you refuse to allow your kid to try martial arts just because it doesn't fit in with some arbitrary notion of what you consider to be cool then you're potentially depriving the kid of a source of pleasure in adult life.

I don't accept the analogy with maths and grammar. You need those things to get a half decent job these days. However, being good at football and other sports is completely useless once you're an adult unless you happen to belong to the 0.01% of the population who is a professional athlete.

And why are you singling out martial arts for special attention? You could quite easily discourage a kid from playing video games on the grounds that many people consider it to be a nerdy hobby. Tennis also has a major image problem. Many people think it's a sport for spoilt pampered rich brats, and indeed there's some truth in that. But so what? It's still a sport that many people, including myself, enjoy playing and watching.

Ultimately, you don't need to justify your hobbies to other people. If they provide you with pleasure then it really doesn't matter what other people think.

[Xiaou2]

 I didnt start learning the arts till age 20.

 In school, I was weak, feeble, and clumsy.  I was the kid they picked last in gym class.

 After less than a year of the arts... my body changed.  It became stronger, more durable.
I put on some muscle.  I went from being a blob of soft jello, feeling extreme pain
from a light punch... to a guy who could take a heavy punch and laugh about it.  My arms
and fist, heavily conditioned... are like Iron bars now.

 I became extremely coordinated and precise.  I had once been described as
"Graceful as a Cat", which surprised the heck out of me considering my past.
The arts actually improved my ability to play typical sports to boot.

 Heck... my last student said that his bowling scores jumped dramatically after he started
learning.  He was with me for about 6 months.


 And Yes, you can learn to fight like the Matrix, being that the moves in the Matrix are
mostly derived from Wing Chun.   Bloodsport is mostly simple kickboxing/karate.

 The difference between the movies and on the streets... is that usually
the opponent isnt trained, and the fight should not last more than a few seconds tops.

 Two very good 'trained' fighters however, may extend this time considerably.


 I have no idea about child level arts however.   A good teacher and class Should make the
kids better skilled at anything they do.   If that isnt the case, then either the teacher is
poor... or the student isnt very dedicated...  or they simply do not put much pressure on the
kids to do well - probably because fear of lawsuits.

[saint]

That's nice, but you still sleep alone.

Dude, is it your ambition in life to be a kneebiter everywhere you go?

[SavannahLion]

And Savannah, if martial arts is unlikely to keep your kid from being bullied by other kids (it is), it's not going to stop an adult from abducting her.  Do you really think that 11-year-old Jaycee Dugard would have been fine if only she knew karate?  Are you joking?

I had this nice long post and the cat hit the keyboard. 

I'll just mince my words.

Not exactly, it would take special kid to fend off a 250lb man. I'm thinking teaching the kid some kind of combat skill would give her enough care and common sense to avoid situations like Dugard, or if she does find herself in that situation, enough wits to get herself out of it. I'm thinking having a couple of flying fists or feet headed her way would teach her to keep her eyeballs peeled and to keep out of nasty situations.

I guess it's cruel, but I imagine having some weird ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?--- rape her ten times over and leave her body to rot is probably a lot worse.