Nieman vs Wells Gardner

[stephanh]

Hey folks,
Pardon a nOOb question please. I have been reading on the forum for some time now and I need help on making a decision.

I was very interested in buying a Wells Gardner d9800 but then I heard about Rick Nieman's stuff. Which monitro should i compare the d9800 to? I need a monitor to play arcade only. So MAMEUI and Daphne only.

I'm also wondering about a couple of things. One has to do with having memory in the monitor for settings. Do the niemans have that? Also, some people say that changing resolutions can shorten the life of a monitor. Is that true? I guess it would happen a lot when you're switching between a CGA game and windows all the time.

Rick if you see this, how do I find out the pricing on your monitors? Do you sell direct? If not where are there ressellers in Atlantic Canada? I live in NB.

Thanks folks
Stephan

[isucamper]

Hey folks,
Pardon a nOOb question please. I have been reading on the forum for some time now and I need help on making a decision.

I was very interested in buying a Wells Gardner d9800 but then I heard about Rick Nieman's stuff. Which monitro should i compare the d9800 to? I need a monitor to play arcade only. So MAMEUI and Daphne only.

I'm also wondering about a couple of things. One has to do with having memory in the monitor for settings. Do the niemans have that? Also, some people say that changing resolutions can shorten the life of a monitor. Is that true? I guess it would happen a lot when you're switching between a CGA game and windows all the time.

Last I checked Neiman offered Tri res monitors without digital memory.  They can display all the arcade resolutions, but require POT adjustments when switching between Standard, Medium, and VGA resolutions.  Therefore, they are not an ideal solution if you want to be switching from an arcade resolution to a front end running at 640x480.

I've got a D9800 and I specifically sent off an email to Wells about the constant resolution switching, and a technician emailed me back and said soemthing like "using the monitor in this fashion will not shorten its lifespan".  I've had it for nearly a year and have been throwing every resolution in the book at it and it hasn't so much as flinched.  My only complaint about the monitor is the less than perfect geometry, otherwise, I couldn't be happier with it. 

If it dies, I'd be tempted to get a Neiman, set it up for CGA resolutions and have my front end run in 640x480 interlaced (which the monitor would display in 15Khz).  Using Soft15Khz, you can display most of the higher resolutions in some kind of interlaced mode, so the monitor could stay in Standard resolution.  Don't know if this would be a great solution, but I'd be tempted to try it. 

[stephanh]

Thanks isucamper.

I kind of like that idea too. Problem is I don't know much about frontends. Are there any frontends that would look good in CGA that can be used to run both MAME games and Daphne games? Kind of a catch all app so you don't have to go to windows except to configure and update stuff?

Thanks
Stephane

[ahofle]

Most front ends look fine at 640x480 interlaced.  You could even use MAMEUI in a pinch (doesn't look the greatest but it works).

The biggest issue with running everything at 15khz is that you have to compromise on the screen size (assuming you don't adjust the pots every time you load up a game).  A 15khz only monitor can display a little less than 300 horizontal lines.  So you have to pick somewhere between 240 and 288 lines (the vast majority of arcade games).  If you size it so 288 line vertical games fit (Pacman, Galaga, etc), then when you load up a horizontal game of 320x240, it will have black bars on the top and bottom.  If you size it with horizontal games in mind, then Galaga and Pacman will be cut off on the top and bottom.  With a digital monitor like the D9800, you don't have to compromise.  When you adjust the 288/256/240 line modes, it saves them in memory so the screen is always perfectly filled.  

[stephanh]

Darn! I really like Rick Nieman's service so I'm kind of torned between Rick's stuff and the d9800. I wish he had a monitor like the d9800. He'd make a killing in this crazy MAME hobby.

Thanks
Stephane

[isucamper]

Most front ends look fine at 640x480 interlaced.  You could even use MAMEUI in a pinch (doesn't look the greatest but it works).

The biggest issue with running everything at 15khz is that you have to compromise on the screen size (assuming you don't adjust the pots every time you load up a game).  A 15khz only monitor can display a little less than 300 horizontal lines.  So you have to pick somewhere between 240 and 288 lines (the vast majority of arcade games).  If you size it so 288 line vertical games fit (Pacman, Galaga, etc), then when you load up a horizontal game of 320x240, it will have black bars on the top and bottom.  If you size it with horizontal games in mind, then Galaga and Pacman will be cut off on the top and bottom.  With a digital monitor like the D9800, you don't have to compromise.  When you adjust the 288/256/240 line modes, it saves them in memory so the screen is always perfectly filled.  

Great info.  On my D9800, I actually size most resolutions (using the monitor controls) so most games have black borders around them because I feel like 27" is way too big for most games.  However, I do try to stretch vertical games to the top and bottom of the monitor.  I'm not sure I'd let that detail keep me from trying a Neiman, especially if the geometry is much better than the D9800 (which I'm assuming it would be).  I'd probably set up the Neiman so 240 vertical lines filled up the screen, and then use MAME's slider controls to squeeze down larger resolutions so they also fit.  You lose your pixel perfect ratio, but it'd probably still look pretty good.   

[ahofle]

I haven't heard of many problems with the D9800.  If you wouldn't mind, could you post a pic showing the geometry issues?  Just curious.

[Ummon]

I'm not sure I'd let that detail keep me from trying a Neiman, especially if the geometry is much better than the D9800 (which I'm assuming it would be).  I'd probably set up the Neiman so 240 vertical lines filled up the screen, and then use MAME's slider controls to squeeze down larger resolutions so they also fit.  You lose your pixel perfect ratio, but it'd probably still look pretty good.  

It looks like ass. No reason to run native if yer gonna do that sort of thing.


Steph - if you want the convenience and all, go for a D9800. I had one for a little while, and it was pretty good. Not as good as my Billabs, but good enough.


In discussion, the dude at Billabs told me the 'switching' wasn't really intended for real-time, let alone frequent, use. I've had mine for almost three years, and have always run Windows at max res - XGA - done oodles and oodles of testing at all sorts of resolutions and stuff, have messed with the convergence, have given it signals it can't sync to (in which case, it has just shut down) - and to this day, it's in top form, both in spec and brightness. In fact, for the last perhaps six months, I've been using this as my only monitor. It's on all day, and it's still nice an perky!

Not to say the D9800 will come close to this performance, but if it's even half as good, it should be just fine for home arcade use for some years.

[isucamper]

I haven't heard of many problems with the D9800.  If you wouldn't mind, could you post a pic showing the geometry issues?  Just curious.

There are really 3 ways I notice the geometry being weird with this monitor.  In most cases, it would be hard to see in a photo. 

1.  Scrolling backgrounds tend to warp as they move across the screen. 

2.  A certain resolution may bend inwards or outwards at the sides.  I can adjust the pincushion to fix it, but if I run a vertical game at that resolution, then it's sides are not straight.  In otherwords, I can have straight sides at the edges of the screen, or at the middle of the screen (at the edges of a vertical game), but not both. 

3.  A certain chunk of resolutions have an hour-glass, or pear shape to them that I can't dial out no matter how much I fiddle with the settings.  This I can take a picture of. 

paperboy @ 512x384


Mortal Kombat @ 399x253


Note that 95% of the resolutions I run do NOT have this issue.  All the lower standard resolutions look pretty ok.  640x480 is also about perfect.  Again, I'm pretty happy with this monitor and have accepted that the geometry will range in quality depending on the game I'm playing. 

[stephanh]

Thanks all. Those are all good comments. I will probably go for the convenience. I have time to think anyway.

Stephane

[ahofle]

Note that 95% of the resolutions I run do NOT have this issue.  All the lower standard resolutions look pretty ok.  640x480 is also about perfect.  Again, I'm pretty happy with this monitor and have accepted that the geometry will range in quality depending on the game I'm playing. 

I'm sure you've already tried this, but it looks like a combination of trapezoid and pincushion should fix those.

[isucamper]

Yep I've tried it.  I can get most resolutions looking pretty good, but there are some examples like these that just can't be fixed.  If you look at the paperboy picture, you can see that the upper corners are bowing out a bit, and the lower corners are bowing in.  I can't even that out with pincusion.  Trapezoid doesn't help much either, as there is always the buldge in the middle I can't get rid of. 

[Ummon]

Yeah, some of these are a little tricky with how they respond to various timings. I wouldn't be surprised if there were very special timings that might settle such things out for a given monitor and circumstance, but finding them, ahhh. That's one reason I use AdvanceMAME, cos it does a damn good job at this.