Someone call the cops! I stole a Jukebox!! MAGNETS??? [03.05.2009]

[javeryh]

Today I am trying to make the back panel and I laminated some 1/8" MDF.  What a pain.  I'm not sure how it is going to turn out (it's drying) but I have a few questions:

1.  Can I remove contact cement from the laminate?  I accidentally got some on the panel after glue-up.
2.  Will a flush cutting bit and my router make a clean edge?  When rough cutting the laminate it chipped apart like crazy (I was using a jigsaw though).

Spreading the glue was very difficult.  I tried using plastic and then a foam brush - I couldn't get it evenly spread out.  I'll know more tonight when I go to cut the panel to size with the router and jukebox shell as the template...  I'm REALLY not feeling good about laminating the curve/shell.   

[mountain]

To clean off the glue, use "Goof-Off". Goo Gone will not work because it doesn't have Xylene in it.

Use a roller to apply the glue. It will give you a more even spread of glue.

I always use a pair of tin snips to rough cut laminate. It is not as good as laminate shears, but it does work well.

The flush cutting bit is how cabinet makers do it. Trust me, I have worked with laminate alot. Go out and invest in a nice large metal file like this one.


You will need it to clean up the edges after routing. It will give the edges a nice smooth black finish.

[javeryh]

Thanks for the info.  I didn't think I'd have to file the edges smooth after using the router and flush bit.  I'm really really hoping to do some more work tonight - there's just not enough time on the weekends and now the weather is getting cold.  I need to just suck it up out there after work and get this thing finished - or at least to the point where I can work inside in front of the TV/in the same room as the wife. 

It might help to make a punch list here:

Back Panel:
- trim back panel to size (I laminated it already)
- remove glue spots from back panel (I spilled some glue during glue-up)
- cut holes for top vent, I/O panel and power button
- glue magnets in place around edge

Exterior:
- laminate shell and trim to size
- cut slots for t-molding
- cut larger hole in the front panel for volume knob
- bond spacer to front panel and install knob

Interior:
- cut out and install shelf panel for computer parts
- add weatherstripping around monitor opening
- secure monitor in place
- secure speaker grill in place
- install marquee/build light enclosure
- wire everything (kind of a big step I'm glossing over)

Other:
- I NEED HELP WITH THE MARQUEE!!!

[javeryh]

So can I remove scratches from laminate?  My router base created a few lines in the back panel as I was routing it to size... I put some painter's tape on the base and that fixed the problem but not before I put a few scratches in the right side.  Otherwise it came out great - I might redo it if I have some more laminate after covering the sides/top but I won't know until I get there.

[javeryh]

***Marquee Art - HELP STILL WANTED!!***

OK, a bit more progress... after about 3 months of working on the front panel off an on it was finally time to glue it to the shell. This took much longer than I thought it would since I had to remove some extra material around where the monitor opening was so that the monitor would be able to fit in there.

I placed the panel on top and then just used a pencil to outline where I needed to cut. You can see the pencil marks in the next two pictures. I wasn't too worried about making a nice straight line or the cleanest cut since it will all be hidden.





Once I had everything laid out I just used my jigsaw and router (freehand!) to cut as close to the line as possible. The one thing I definitely didn't want to do was cut through the side or something and ruin the shell!

Once the shell was cut properly, I carefully lined everything up and then actually tried installing the monitor. It was a good thing that I did. There were two metal brackets which did not affect the installation into the front panel (I didn't have to account for them) but they would definitely be in the way once the front panel was glued to the shell. I measured the brackets and removed a little bit more material.

Finally, using some wood glue, some clamps and a cinder block I attached the front panel to the shell and let it dry overnight. There's no turning back now!







Lining everything up was tricky. Since there was about 3(!) months between making the shell and cutting the front panel to actually gluing the front panel in place it didn't line up perfect. I think I am splitting hairs though because you can only notice when you rub your finger over the edge. The laminate should go on evenly though (I hope!).

Here are a couple of interior shots so you can see what a mess it is in there. In the bottom left hand corner of the second picture you can see the additional notch I had to cut for the monitor's mounting bracket. I'm really glad I checked before gluing!







Finally, here are some shots of the front panel glued to the shell. It's funny - this thing looks almost exactly like it did 2 months ago!





I picked up the laminate from Home Depot and I am planning to glue it to the top/sides this week/weekend.  In the mean time I am going to start setting up the computer and configuring the software.

More later.   

***Marquee Art - HELP STILL WANTED!!***

[Kaytrim]

I would sand that edge javeryh.  It may translate through the laminate or make it stick up at the edge.  I don't know if it will even be an issue but from what I know of you it'll bother you to no end.  Maybe mountian can chime in here on the issue as he works with laminate for a living.

TTFN
Kaytrim

[mountain]

Maybe mountian can chime in here on the issue as he works with laminate for a living.

No, not for a living. I have worked with it a lot though. I used to build homebrew speaker enclosures back in the day plus my three projects listed on this site.

You definitely want the surface to be totally flat. I used a palm sander to remove any high spots including excess glue.

[javeryh]

Maybe mountian can chime in here on the issue as he works with laminate for a living.

No, not for a living. I have worked with it a lot though. I used to build homebrew speaker enclosures back in the day plus my three projects listed on this site.

You definitely want the surface to be totally flat. I used a palm sander to remove any high spots including excess glue.

Thanks guys - I was debating whether to sand but now I definitely will.  I think I'll be OK even if there is a rough spot or two that doesn't line up *perfectly* (it's really really close now even before sanding) because the lip of the t-molding will cover the edge of the laminate even if it is raised a hair at the edge... I think.

Any tips for removing scratches in the laminate or do I need to make another back panel?  It was simple to make since I have a template but I might not have enough laminate left after I laminate the curved sides/top...  I might go with what I have for now and then if it annoys me as the project gets closer to completion I can order some more laminate and make another panel...   THe scratches aren't deep but they are long. 

[mountain]

I would remake the panel. I imagine trying to buff the scratch out would make it glossy.

How much laminate did you buy? Seams like you should have plenty to spare unless to bought less than 1/2 sheet.

[javeryh]

I would remake the panel. I imagine trying to buff the scratch out would make it glossy.

How much laminate did you buy? Seams like you should have plenty to spare unless to bought less than 1/2 sheet.

I bought a 1/2 sheet (2' x 8').  I need 57" for the curved panel (so ~60" to be safe) which leaves 3' for the back panel which I've already wasted about 18".  I need to measure everything out and try to get as close as possible so I don't waste anything else.  My fear is that I end up a couple of inches short...     

You can see the scratch on the right in the pic (there are several more down the right side of the panel).

 

EDIT: I just did some quick math (with pi and everything!) and I think the laminate needs to be approximately 51" which SHOULD leave enough to make one more back panel!  I'll know more tonight when I get home and actually make the measurements...

[mountain]

I wouldn't worry about it too much. You should have enough left over. Worst case, you could get out your sandpaper and polishing supplies left over from Bella's Arcade and buff away. You would have the shinnyest laminate in town. Seriously, what do you have to loose?

BTW, all this jukebox talk has me wanting to make another one!

[javeryh]

BTW, all this jukebox talk has me wanting to make another one!

Uh-oh - do you really want to start this vicious cycle all over again?   

[Franco B]

Looking good buddy.

If you do have enough laminate left over I would redo the panel if you are not happy with it. You will only regret it in the long run when you look back at it. Like you said you have the template so It would take long to cut another.

Im looking forward to getting on with Pinky. Ive just finished making a couple of templates to route the speaker relief tomorrow morning. Ive checked the weather and its going to be fine but its going to be a maximun of 6 degress C (43F) Oh well, at least if the router bites into my fingers I wont feel it! 

Like you Ill be glad when I can get it inside to work on it. Time really is ticking now so I really do need to get cracking.

Anywho's, keep up the stellar work

[DaOld Man]

I like the back panel JH.
I will probably do mine like that.

Franco, I know what you mean bu the cold. My workshop/toolshed is not heated, and its cold out there.
Ive got one of those kerosene space heaters Im thinking of firing up out there, but Im kinda worried about the MDF dust catching fire.
Ive still got a ton of cutting and routing to do.

[javeryh]

Thanks guys!  The weather really is making things tough - I wanted to work outside last night but it was pouring out.  My garage is detached from my house so I wasn't that motivated to go outside and work (I'm always running back and forth to the basement for stuff since I keep everyday tools there for easy access... well, except when I'm working in the garage).

I've also thought about a space heater but I have the exact same concerns with the MDF dust catching fire.   

Tonight I'm determined to remake the back panel AND laminate the shell... it's the last piece of construction other than really minor stuff, I think.  We shall see...   

[mountain]

I use a Ready Heater like this one.



I have had it for 12 years without an issue, and I have cut (and breathed) my share of MDF over the years.

Stop it with the exuses and get out there! 

[javeryh]

I remade the back panel with no trouble.  I also laminated the shell - I might have ruined the whole thing. I'll know more tomorrow when the glue is fully dried. I had to add some weights to the thing as it lays on it's side but I could not get everything to lie perfectly flat.  I'm bummed to say the least...

[Franco B]

Eeeek....

You can't have ruinned the whole thing? How? Did something go wrong laminating the shell? It won't be ruined, there wil be a fix. Dont worry. 

[leapinlew]

BTW, all this jukebox talk has me wanting to make another one!

Really? Ok, reading from my "Motivating Mountain for Dummies" book, I see you work best when given an extremely short deadline.

Is it done yet?

[leapinlew]

I remade the back panel with no trouble.  I also laminated the shell - I might have ruined the whole thing. I'll know more tomorrow when the glue is fully dried. I had to add some weights to the thing as it lays on it's side but I could not get everything to lie perfectly flat.  I'm bummed to say the least...

I'll keep my fingers crossed. Just remember, there isn't anything you can do that you can't fix. Either by mitigation or rebuilding. When I'm pissed after I screw something up, I play a game of Galaga, Mr. Do, or something and then get back at it. Just a matter of time and money.

Laminate has caused me some of my biggest issues. Recently, I put a screw through my freshly installed laminate when I was screwing from the inside. Somehow a 1.75" Drywall screw ended up in my 1.25" drywall screw bin and I didn't notice. I would've preferred it didn't happen, but it did and it's not the end of the world.

Another time, I applied the laminate and it was crooked. Had about 1/2" wood exposed. Trying to pull the laminate off... that wasn't fun.

[mountain]

It sounds to me by reading your post that you may not have let the glue dry enough before joining the laminate to the wood. You don't need weights or straps, just pressure from a j-roller and you're done. I typically used my laminate bit immediately after gluing it down.

If you messed up the laminate, it can be fixed by removing the bad, cleaning off the glue and starting over. Hang in there Bud, you will chuckle about this later. You will also learn from it.

[leapinlew]

it can be fixed by removing the bad, cleaning off the glue and starting over.

You said a mouthful there. As someone who's had to remove glue, I can tell you it's not a fun task. Is there a shortcut beyond friction, elbow grease and a palm sander?

Mountains right though. I didn't notice the glue drying/weights part of your post Javery. When I laminate, it's a quick process.

• Apply glue to cut laminate piece and wood
• Once ready, apply laminate to wood. Use J-roller.
• Trim

That all happens in a span of 30minutes (sometimes more depending on the cure time of the glue). As soon as the 2 pieces touch each other... their stuck. What happened over there?

[javeryh]

I guess I'm just really inexperienced with laminate.  I used a roller to apply the glue and it seemed to go on nice and even.  I thought I let it dry enough (30 minutes) - it was barely tacky to the touch.  I started on one end (not in the middle) and as I rolled the shell over the laminate stuck with no trouble so I thought I was OK.  I applied pressure as I went from the inside and then with the j roller from the outside once I made my way around.  After that, I noticed the laminate wanting to separate at the edges so I tipped the thing on its side, put an MDF panel on top and then 2 cinder blocks for pressure.  Everything looks OK right now but I'm afraid when I remove the cinder blocks it will want to spring back into place (away from the shell).  I'm going to let it dry until at least tomorrow night and then see where I'm at.  It is encouraging to know there may be a way to remove the laminate and try again.

 

[mountain]

You said a mouthful there. As someone who's had to remove glue, I can tell you it's not a fun task. Is there a shortcut beyond friction, elbow grease and a palm sander?

Xylene. You can buy it in it by itself in a can (Lowes/Home Depot) It is also the active ingredient in Goof-Off (not Goo-Gone) On my first build, I had to rework the laminate on the coin door 3 times before I got it right. All you do is brush it on, let it sit, and scrape it of with a putty knife. Do that twice. Then soak a rag and wipe off any residue that may still be there.

javeryh,
Chances are that the surface is slightly bowed up in the center (from from to back) where the laminate appeared to be pulling up at the edges. On mine, I saw this a little in a few spots. I think it is from gluing the two 1/8" pieces together. The glue between these two 1/8" MDF pieces gets trapped towards the center creating a slight hump. The good news is that since you will be applying the t-molding in this area, it will hide it.

If I were you, I would wait until you install the t-molding to before you decide it was a failure. Chance are, if you are like me, you are being a little too anal. I am sure it will be fine.

Go grab a cold beer, always helps me in these situations. 

[Franco B]

Go grab a cold beer, always helps me in these situations. 

Maybe that was the problem  

[javeryh]

I sure hope that is it.  I'm also really really hoping the t-molding hides the edge.  I definitely think you are right about the shell being a little deformed - the front and back templates I made do not line up at all.  They are off by as much as 1/16" in some spots even though the panels I used to initially form the shell were identical.  You obviously can't tell with the naked eye.

Tomorrow assuming the glue dries fully I'm going to route the laminate to final size, cut the slots and install the t-molding.

[javeryh]

OK, I just pulled these from my camera... You can't really tell anything but the reason for the clamps in the back is because that is where the separation was occurring. 

[javeryh]

OK, I managed to finish the lamination process today (trimming it to size) and it dried pretty nice.  There is only one spot on the right side that separated from the shell.  I'm going to use a razor to get some glue in there and clamp it overnight.  I was quite relieved. 

Unfortunately, during the trimming process I nicked the front panel with the flush bit.   

I shaved off the protective paper and the thin layer of shiny on the Plexiglas - the scrape is about an inch long so I am definitely going to have to try and sand and polish that area and blend it in to the rest of the front panel.  It sucks.  I was being careful with the router but I guess I tipped it into the piece instead of away from it and I effed it up. If anyone has any other suggestions on a fix I'd love to hear it.  I'm going to start with the Novus 2 and work backwards to the Novus 3 and then 1500 grit sandpaper until I feel like it is blending in and then move forward from there until I finish it with the Novus 1... oh well, nothing I can do but try and fix it.  You can see it in the attached picture... which actually makes it look horribly bad.   

Tomorrow I'll route the slots for the t-molding and then it's just a matter of installing everything... easier said than done, I'm sure.

[mountain]

That sucks. It happened on mine also, at the very bottom. I had to carefully cut the film off the entire width of the face about 1/4" up and polish it all. I figured it would blend better. I started with 600 grit, went to 1000, 1500, and then 2000 (wet) I finished it off with the Novus system and you can't even tell.

Why are you going to polish it out of sequence?

Tomorrow I'll route the slots for the t-molding and then it's just a matter of installing everything... easier said than done, I'm sure.

"The only thing left to do is finish up" 

[javeryh]

It's is a huge relief knowing that it can be fixed.  I haven't even been able to enjoy the Giants win since it's all I can think about.  This is definitely a learning experience.

I was going to sand and polish out of order because I don't want to go down too far grit-wise and scuff it up further unnecessarily - my thinking is that I'll hope the Novus 2 can polish it out and if not I''l try the Novus 3 and then the 1500 grit sandpaper, etc.  I don't know... maybe I'll just start at 600...

I'm already trying to plan out the interior and it's making my head spin!  I also just remembered I need to finish up the rear panel and figure out a way to secure it in place - I want to use magnets.  I also need to get the I/O panel finalized and then cut.

[Franco B]

Ouch! That's the problem about this kinda work, you can so easily make a mistake and ruin hours of work. I'm glad to here it can be fixed though

As regards to your I/O panel I'm picking up another copy of AutoCAD this afternoon so Ill get on it ASAP, It wont be today though as I need to work on Pinky whilst the GF is out. Ill definitely have it done in a day or two (your job too mountain if you are reading)

[javeryh]

I think I need to start working on the fix tonight after work.  I can't stop thinking about it and I'm getting that sinking feeling like I forgot to study for finals or something.  I really really hope I get it looking shiny again...

You definitely need to take advantage of the time when the GF is not around.  My family might go away next week to my inlaws so I am planning everything out right now to maximize my project time.

Thanks for the help with the I/O panel! 

[drawfull]

Looking at the pic, would it not be possible (if you can't remove the scratch) to bevel the external edge too? Then normal polishing procedure would apply.

I luckily don't have this issue as the front of mine is wood - and my dad keeps telling me that the odd ding or knock = character. I would be gutted if it was acrylic. Good luck 

[javeryh]

Looking at the pic, would it not be possible (if you can't remove the scratch) to bevel the external edge too? Then normal polishing procedure would apply.

I luckily don't have this issue as the front of mine is wood - and my dad keeps telling me that the odd ding or knock = character. I would be gutted if it was acrylic. Good luck 

Thanks.  The more I think about it (which is all the time) I think I'll be able to fix it.  It is just a paper-thin scratch so not deep at all - the trick will be getting it to blend in with the surrounding area.  Hopefully when I'm finished I'll be the only one who notices.

As for beveling the edge, it is an interesting idea for sure but I only have 1/8" to work with if I went that route (the thickness of the acrylic) and the scratch is thicker than that.  I'm also hoping to cover some of it with the lip of the t-molding but that's probably wishful thinking on my part - at best I'm hoping to cover the thickness of the laminate with it.

I placed the last order today for parts (other than any printing costs) to try and cheer myself up.  I picked up:

- cables from frontx for the I/O panel
- power module from mouser for the I/O panel
- rare earth magnets from hartvilletool to fasten the back panel to the shell (1/4" diameter)

This will be everything I need in order to finish.   

[javeryh]

OK here's a bit of an update not related to the acrylic - I figured how I am going to cover the speaker opening. I didn't take any specific set of speakers into consideration when I was laying out the front panel - I was more concerned with aesthetics and an overall uniform look.  I just thought I'd figure it out when I got that far....

I decided to use some speaker cloth (available at partsexpress) and some perforated aluminum (available at mcmastercarr - thanks mountain!) to hide the speaker. The aluminum should tie in nicely to the volume knob and the chrome t-molding I will be wrapping the edges of the case with.

The first thing I did was buy some 1/4" square dowels from Home Depot - I wanted 1/8" but this was the smallest they had. I used the dowels to make a frame slightly smaller than the area routed out behind the speaker opening.



I clamped the cut pieces for about an hour until the glue felt like it would hold.



Once that was finished I sprayed it black just to make sure it wouldn't show at all through the speaker cloth and perforated metal.



Next, I cut out a piece of perforated aluminum to cover the frame.



Finally, I cut out a piece of speaker cloth a bit oversized to wrap the frame. This was a bit tough to figure out but maybe I'm slow. I got some white Elmer's Glue and put a bead around the frame. Then I laid the frame on top of the cloth on a flat surface with a piece of saran wrap underneath so the glue wouldn't stick to the table.



After the glue dried I used a razor to remove the excess material around the edges and I ended up with something like this:





The final step is going to be securing everything behind the Plexiglas in the cabinet. I have a bit more to do before I'm ready to permanently install it but here are a few pictures of what it is going to look like:









I am pretty happy with how this part came out. This was kind of a pain to do - I was expecting it to be an hour tops but I had trouble cutting the perforated metal accurately (third time was a charm).

 

[javeryh]

OK, I'm taking a break from this project for at least a week.  I tried cutting the slots for the t-molding tonight and my slot cutter broke in the middle of the cut.  All three tips came off and it took me a while to realize it.  The slot was two different thicknesses and I couldn't figure out why.  It also started smoking towards the end of the cut which I knew was bad since it usually cuts through like butter.  It feels like everything is going wrong this week and I've been so careful. 

I think I need to get away from this thing for a few days before I mess anything else up so I'm on hold until the new slot cutter arrives at least.   

[DaOld Man]

Man, that sucks about your router bit.
Maybe a few days break will do you good, give you a little time to think about things.
I was on a very tight schedule when I built my first juke, and that is not a good thing (for me anyway).
This time Im taking it a lot slower, but cold weather is just around the corner.

That dell speaker bar is an odd thing to work with.
I like the grill that is on the bar, so I am planning to have it show, but the dang bar is angled, and it has that crazy piece on the top that gets in the way of everything.
I may give up and go the same route that you and "the man" mountain did.
I tried to dissect the bar, but I cant figure out how it comes apart. It must have been created with magic. 

[Franco B]

Dude, that sucks 

Did you have the slot cutter on the right way around? I've put mine on the wrong way before and it does (kinda) cut but it smokes too. I was only cutting plain MDF and mine didn't break but if you did have yours on the wrong way around I guess the toughness of the laminate may have caused the tips to come off.

I don't blame you for standing back for a bit. Its soo annoying when things go wrong, especially when you have been carefull.

At least its nothing terminal and you will be able to salvage it. Chin up buddy 

DaOld Man, I know what you mean about the speaker bar. I think they must have glued the seams upon assembly, there was no way mine was coming open. The mounting piece on top comes off nice and easy if you have a Dremel with a cut off disc, I just whizzed that round the top of mine. 

[javeryh]

I think I had it on the right way (I should know since I've done this a bunch) and it cut just fine on the test run through some scrap MDF when I was setting the depth.  The the three "wings" spin counterclockwise into what I am cutting.  It was a very old bit (4 years) and I store it in my garage which has some pretty wild temperature swings... maybe the bit had just had enough.  I ordered another one and it should be here soon.  At least all of this mess will get covered by the t-molding - the laminate chipped along the groove pretty good.

It has been a rough week with this project.  I'm trying to finish by Christmas just so I have an end date in mind to work towards.  Next week the wife and kids are going to be away so I'm hoping to get the majority of the thing finished then.

DaOld Man - I haven't really thought about securing the speaker bar in place yet but I do know it has an odd shape.  For the interior, I am planning on installing a shelf that will sit above the speaker bar.  The computer will be installed on this shelf and the speaker bar and case fan will be installed below this shelf (there will be a 120mm hole in the center of the shelf and the case fan mounted directly underneath blowing air upward).  The I/O extensions will also run from the motherboard above the shelf to the I/O panel below the shelf... if that makes any sense.  Basically, I am not going to be adding a "bottom panel" that will cover everything - I want there to be adequate ventilation underneath flowing up through the body and out the vent on top.

EDIT: I snapped a few pics of the router and t-molding on a piece of scrap MDF.  I only cut the slot around the back and I made the cut with the back panel secured in place (so the t-molding will cover it).   

[javeryh]

OK, I've been messing around with the design of the marquee and I've come up with this (as posted in the artwork forum and NOT to scale).

It needs some work but it's a start:

• I think I'd like the lines for the dial to look more professional (crisper).  I'd like to redraw the entire dial with all the numbers (since the pic I snagged off of the internet isn't a perfect circle). 
  

• Instead of the random (blurry) text that you can barely read, I'd like to add a personal touch similar to mountain's jukebox marquee like maybe "Mfg. by 'my name' 2008" or something.

Thoughts?