>>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<

[CheffoJeffo]

 

More important issue is *did* Jeff quit ? Anybody talk to him lately ?

[fixedpigs]

And hopefully, the fact that their game would be available to a very wide audience makes them happy.

um...wouldn't jeff have allowed it to be downloaded for free from his site if this was what he wanted...?

[Ummon]

What does that have to do with ripping off D2K?

I was subtly hinting that you're spinning your emotional wheels. As is everyone else in some manner in this portion of the thread.

[CheffoJeffo]

What does that have to do with ripping off D2K?

I was subtly hinting that you're spinning your emotional wheels. As is everyone else in some manner in this portion of the thread.

It wasn't subtle, you were implying that because you do things for free that you feel comfortable not paying for something provided by someone who has asked for payment. I would suggest that many folks here (myself included) are already comfortable in that role.

Jeff asked for payment and was obviously upset by how D2K came to be included in MisFit MAME. Jeff being pissed off is, to my mind, more important than anything that the rest of us have to say on the topic.

 If he quits, as have others before him, then the hobby as a whole is diminished.

[TheShanMan]

Sorry for not saying that it's OK to steal.

You haven't read a single word of what I wrote today.

And if you don't feel cheated and stolen from when a marketing company guises up a crap product, then, I guess capitolism loves you.  Unless you have ESP, there's no way to know if something is "good" until you experience it yourself.

Oh, believe me. I read every word. And no, I'm not happy if I buy a crappy product, but I do take responsibility for my choices, and part of making a choice like that is finding out what kind of return policy there is, and then deciding if it's worth the risk. We're getting way off topic though, so that's the last I have to say on the subject.

Ummon, any "emotion" involved relates to the sadness over how some of you spit in the face of people like Jeff, and most likely kill motivation for some to contribute cool new things to our community. Clearly, bringing that to your attention doesn't bother you. You've got what you want, everyone else be damned. So since this is just "spinning my wheels", I'm done. The end result for me is that I've pretty much lost respect for you (not that there's any particular reason you would/should care since I'm just a voice on the internet).

[Hoopz]

Has anyone pointed Robbertt (or whatever spelling he uses on this board) to this thread?  Since he is responsible for Misfitmame, perhaps he should be included?

I haven't downloaded this rom as I don't believe it should be freely available whilst the person that created is still trying to make money off of it.  In my mind, I do see a distinction between that and other roms that I've downloaded before.  To be fair, I don't currently have a MAME cabinet but I don't think that's necessarily relevant. 

I'm probably justifying not playing this while playing others.  But, the games I did play when on my cabinet, weren't games that were new, created by a person or institution and made available to others for a fee.  They were older games that aren't available in other formats or systems.  Again, I'm justifying it. 

Just my two cents.   

[CheffoJeffo]

FWIW, Jeff's site is back ... and that's a good thing.   

[Ummon]

Sorry for not saying that it's OK to steal.

You haven't read a single word of what I wrote today.

And if you don't feel cheated and stolen from when a marketing company guises up a crap product, then, I guess capitolism loves you.  Unless you have ESP, there's no way to know if something is "good" until you experience it yourself.

Oh, believe me. I read every word. And no, I'm not happy if I buy a crappy product, but I do take responsibility for my choices, and part of making a choice like that is finding out what kind of return policy there is, and then deciding if it's worth the risk. We're getting way off topic though, so that's the last I have to say on the subject.

Ummon, any "emotion" involved relates to the sadness over how some of you spit in the face of people like Jeff, and most likely kill motivation for some to contribute cool new things to our community. Clearly, bringing that to your attention doesn't bother you. You've got what you want, everyone else be damned. So since this is just "spinning my wheels", I'm done. The end result for me is that I've pretty much lost respect for you (not that there's any particular reason you would/should care since I'm just a voice on the internet).

Shan, I care about everyone. However, while I may express my care about them, and may offer assistance and such in cases, they are their own entities.

Cheffo, no. I covered and explained that. My point was that I'm not emotionally attached to the points in this topic (at the very least).

[FrizzleFried]

Cheffo, no. I covered and explained that. My point was that I'm not emotionally attached to the points in this topic (at the very least).

"Your honor... I wasn't emotionally attached to the [enter whatever you wish here] that I stole,  therefore I should not have been arrested or tried for said theft."

Ah... I see.

[isucamper]

Sorry for not saying that it's OK to steal.

"Your honor... I wasn't emotionally attached to the [enter whatever you wish here] that I stole,  therefore I should not have been arrested or tried for said theft."

Ah... I see.

Are you guys seriously going to sit there and point at Ummon and accuse him of stealing?   Hypocritical much?  Do you guys own MAME cabinets?  Do you own licenses for all the ROMs that you run?

You've made your own justifications about why it's ok to download a 20 year old ROM and why we should lock up Ummon for trying out DK2.  But you can't judge a single other person based on a justification you make about what is right and wrong for you.  They are your own justifications.  Period.  They have no bearing on any law or constitutional amendment. 

The only black and white truth is that ANY downloading of copywrited material is illegal, and if you've done it, you've got no right to sit here and tell someone that they've stepped over an imaginary line that you drew for yourself.  The line Ummon drew is a bit different than yours.  Guess what?  Neither one of you has any right to judge the other. 

Anyone who wants to continue this argument, start by listing the EXACT urls of where you downloaded your ROMs at.  If you hesitate in doing this, ask yourself why you are hesitating.

[TheShanMan]

Well for one, it's against forum rules to post locations of roms. For another, I didn't say anything about law or jail. And it's not hypocritical at all when you take lawfulness out of it. It's really a totally different situation. The creators of all the old arcade games not only do not make money from those games, they more or less don't even care about us playing the games through MAME. Vastly different than stealing a game from someone who recently made it, is trying to earn money for it, and who does VERY MUCH care about people playing it in an emulator.

Oh, and just for good measure, I have every right to judge. I don't know where the notion that people don't have the right to judge the actions of others came from, but I'm perfectly free to say that an action is wrong.

[FrizzleFried]

I've not suggested Ummon (or anyone) need be charged with a crime... I simply said if he keeps the ROM he should step up and pay for it.  I am guessing "reading comprehension" isn't your forte?

[CheffoJeffo]

The only black and white truth is that ANY downloading of copywrited material is illegal, and if you've done it, you've got no right to sit here and tell someone that they've stepped over an imaginary line that you drew for yourself. 

Actually, I download copyrighted material every day ... legally ... even stuff I don't pay for ... and I would bet that you do as well.

But I understand the point you are trying to make since I already made it.

On the rest of it, I've said my piece and and am tired of beating my head against the wall to try to get people to respect Jeff.

 

[isucamper]

Well for one, it's against forum rules to post locations of roms.

And why do you suppose that is???  Cause... I don't know... it's illegal to make copies of copywrited material?  Or it's unethical to download something that you haven't paid for?  Explain it to me ShanMan, why would it be against the rules to post locations of ROMs?  And then why is it ok for you to have a MAME cabinet with a bunch of ROMs on it but Ummon is out of line for downloading DK2?

The creators of all the old arcade games not only do not make money from those games, they more or less don't even care about us playing the games through MAME.

You are being so frustratingly short sighted.  The only difference is that you are closer to Jeff and you can see a more direct effect that downloading has on him.  How can you sum up the thousands of other game creators out there with one flippant statement?  How the heck do you know what they think? 

Oh, and just for good measure, I have every right to judge. I don't know where the notion that people don't have the right to judge the actions of others came from, but I'm perfectly free to say that an action is wrong.

Really?  Honestly?  When you were a kid, did your mother teach you to sit on the top of the hill outside your house and point at everyone that walked by and describe to them everything that was wrong with how they were living their lives?  This is really a suitable way to conduct yourself in your opinion?  You have no legal basis for your judgments (at least, no basis that isn't 100% hypocritical).  These are morally grey areas in which you have no right to tell someone that they are wrong based on a justification you have made for your own life.   

[isucamper]

I've not suggested Ummon (or anyone) need be charged with a crime... I simply said if he keeps the ROM he should step up and pay for it.  I am guessing "reading comprehension" isn't your forte?

Reading comprehension.  Hilarious.  And I'm sure you sent Shigeru Miyamoto (creator of all the old Nintendo games who IS still compensated when his company repackages and sells his old arcade games on new platforms) a kick back for each of his games you've downloaded.   Or the countless other developers out there who you guys are lumping into the "don't care" category without any real basis for doing so.

[FrizzleFried]

You are being so frustratingly short sighted.  The only difference is that you are closer to Jeff and you can see a more direct effect that downloading has on him.  How can you sum up the thousands of other game creators out there with one flippant statement?  How the heck do you know what they think? 

Please point me in the direction of a vendor that sells BRAND NEW original N.I.B. arcade PCB's where the original copyright holder gets their dough TODAY.

I am interested in picking up a Donkey Kong boardset.  I'd also love to pick up a N.I.B. Centipede...  Where can I pick a brand new Centipede up... now Atari needs to get some of that dough...er...wait...you mean THAT Atari isn't around any longer?

Hmmm....

[FrizzleFried]

I've not suggested Ummon (or anyone) need be charged with a crime... I simply said if he keeps the ROM he should step up and pay for it.  I am guessing "reading comprehension" isn't your forte?

Reading comprehension.  Hilarious.  And I'm sure you sent Shigeru Miyamoto (creator of all the old Nintendo games who IS still compensated when his company repackages and sells his old arcade games on new platforms) a kick back for each of his games you've downloaded.   Or the countless other developers out there who you guys are lumping into the "don't care" category without any real basis for doing so.

I don't care about new and exciting platforms... I want a NEW IN BOX Nintendo Donkey Kong to put in my Nintendo Donkey Kong cabinet.  I don't think a Wii version will work.   Apples to Oranges.

[isucamper]

I don't care about new and exciting platforms... I want a NEW IN BOX Nintendo Donkey Kong to put in my Nintendo Donkey Kong cabinet.  I don't think a Wii version will work.   Apples to Oranges.

GUESS WHAT?!  What you want doesn't apply to ANYTHING.  It's still infringment to download Donkey Kong. 

It's Nintendo's right to offer their copywrited material in any form they want to.  Right now, they want you to download the original Donkey Kong on the Wii Virtual Console for 5 dollars.  Tell me.  Did you send in your 5 bucks when you downloaded to your MAME cab instead?  <GASP> <POINT> That's stealing!!!

You know, you just offered the perfect analogy to Ummon downloading DK2.  It wasn't in the format that he preferred to play it, so he downloaded it.  It's like, EXACTLY how you just justified your downloading of the original.  This hypocracy on here is just maddening. 

[TheShanMan]

You are being so frustratingly short sighted.  The only difference is that you are closer to Jeff and you can see a more direct effect that downloading has on him.  How can you sum up the thousands of other game creators out there with one flippant statement?  How the heck do you know what they think? 

Actually I'm not close to Jeff at all. And ditto what Friz said. The copyright holders on those games have made no notable attempts to put the brakes on MAME all this time.

Oh, and just for good measure, I have every right to judge. I don't know where the notion that people don't have the right to judge the actions of others came from, but I'm perfectly free to say that an action is wrong.

Really?  Honestly?  When you were a kid, did your mother teach you to sit on the top of the hill outside your house and point at everyone that walked by and describe to them everything that was wrong with how they were living their lives?  This is really a suitable way to conduct yourself in your opinion?  You have no legal basis for your judgments (at least, no basis that isn't 100% hypocritical).  These are morally grey areas in which you have no right to tell someone that they are wrong based on a justification you have made for your own life.   

Really. Honestly. Everyone makes judgments all the time. You've never said to yourself "it would be wrong of me to do (such and such)"? That's making a judgment. I never said anything about outwardly pointing out the wrongs of everyone that walks by. But Ummon has stated that he doesn't see the need to pay for it, and I'm perfectly free to say why I think that's wrong. "legal basis" - I don't know why you keep coming back to this. I'm just talking about right and wrong, not whether something is technically legal or illegal.

Once again, I have every right - I don't have a clue as to why you think I don't.

By the way, feel free to judge my actions (and in fact you are doing just that) - it is totally your right to do so.

[isucamper]

But Ummon has stated that he doesn't see the need to pay for it, and I'm perfectly free to say why I think that's wrong.

I agree with you 100%.  But... I think it's wrong for you to point at him and say "that's stealing" as you did here: 

Sorry for not saying that it's OK to steal.

when you've done the same thing with hundreds, if not thousands of other ROMs.  It's not any different.  Nintendo, Namco, and other publishers are still trying to make money off these old games just the same as Jeff is. 

We all make justifications for ourselves about what's appropriate in this gray area. The issue is when you try to go around and hold another person to a justification you make about what's right for yourself.    Feel free to disagree (and voice your disagreement) all you want, but don't go around accusing people of stealing.  "Steal", in this context, means a something a little bit different to everybody here. 

[FrizzleFried]

You're right.  It's all stealing.  The difference,  from my point of view,  is that downloading ROM's (ie STEALING) from a company that is often times (A) large, (B) foreign, (C) a corporate entity, etc. is a much different ballgame than downloading the D2K ROM (ie STEALING)  from Jeff,  a friend of the community,  a person who's done more than one "solid" for the Arcade community.

I guess that's just me though...

[RayB]

Why we cheat or steal:

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/dan_ariely_on_our_buggy_moral_code.html

[TheShanMan]

Nintendo, Namco, and other publishers are still trying to make money off these old games just the same as Jeff is.

I may just be uninformed on this, and this is a legitimate question. Are these publishers trying to make money off of the original games or some derivative (sequel or remake kind of thing)? I would certainly consider purchasing licenses if that legally entitled me to play the original game in my cab, much like owning physical roms is generally considered to be the "legitimate" way to permit you to play a game in mame. I'm guessing that doing so wouldn't entitle me though. In other words, if becoming legal with some of these other games is as simple as it is with D2K, then I'd say you have a legitimate criticism to level against those of us who are vocally against stealing D2K.

[Ummon]

isu: dude, whoa. People have various ways of feeling about all kinds of things. And they'll say all kinds of things about them. Let them. It usually helps. If they're being particularly nasty, casually let them know. No one's being nasty here.

[isucamper]

isu: dude, whoa. People have various ways of feeling about all kinds of things. And they'll say all kinds of things about them. Let them. It usually helps. If they're being particularly nasty, casually let them know. No one's being nasty here.

They weren't being nasty, just snidely sarcastic... which got me going more than I should have let it.  Sorry guys.

Shan, yeah, publishers are releasing their old games all the time, usually using some verison of MAME to run them.  Namco and Williams release museum collections for every generation of consoles.  Xbox Live, PSN, and Wii Channel all have arcade sections with the actual old games available (not remakes).  However, the way licensing works, it only entitles you to play those games on the platform you purchase it on.  It'd be great if there was some itunes like service on PC where we could get our ROMs for a reasonable price, but oh well.

In fact, one of the reasons I built my MAME cabinet was to cure myself of the sickness of endlessly buying arcade collections for the various consoles (I can't count how many times I've bought Smash TV... or Joust).  I'd always get excited to play them but they always are a dissappointment with a gamepad. 

PS:  I just counted how many times I've bought Smash TV:

once on Super NES
once on Midway collection for Dreamcast
once on Midway/Williams Arcade Classics collection for Xbox 1
once on Xbox Live

[Hoopz]

Shan, yeah, publishers are releasing their old games all the time, usually using some verison of MAME to run them.  Namco and Williams release museum collections for every generation of consoles. 

Really?  You know that they are, in fact, using MAME in the products they are selling?

[CheffoJeffo]

I would have thought that would be against the MAME license ... 

[SirPeale]

There are a lot more emulators than just Mame.  Most of them are scratch wrote, but I'm sure the programmers use Mame frequently as a reference.

[RayB]

If you guys think there aren't any "behind the scenes" deals with MAME, you are deluding yourselves.

[orion]

Forgive me, this is a bit off topic. I can understand game devs not wanting their roms downloaded even though the game hasn't been in production for 25 years or so. What really gets me scratching my head is some of the companies being so protective of their cabinet art work. The only thing people could possibly use that for is to restore machines that they do in fact own! What gives with that???

[isucamper]

Really?  You know that they are, in fact, using MAME in the products they are selling?

I don't.  Was often rumored though. 

[TheShanMan]

Ah, this discussion is finally getting interesting. If these companies are in fact making behind the scenes deals with the mame team, wouldn't that imply that they recognize and accept that their games are being played in mame by people like us without licenses? Seems almost like a trade off - you let us use mame in our console arcade games and we will accept the reality that the small niche of mame cab owners are playing our games without being licensed. Yeah, it's total conjecture, but how bothered can they be if they actually wouldn't have a product without mame?

[Namco]

Forgive me, this is a bit off topic. ...

Don't worry man, it's been off topic since I derailed it 5 pages ago 

[BUCKETHEAD]

On a lighter note.

Here is me, Playing a little DK2.

Not pretty, But i made it through.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71vmFvCgWNQ&feature=channel_page[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8ztVI1MUNg&feature=channel_page[/youtube]

[Ummon]

Hey, that was some nice work on the the pie/heart screen. Also, the way you did it cuts the time in half. I had been waiting through two rounds of pies and springies. Very smooth on the springie board after that, too. Mm, jumping that oil bucket at the bottom of board seven is a tight ---maternal-smurf---. And once you get past the pie maker, it seems pretty easy-peasy. Later (exclamation) - on board eight, does he crawl back up if you don't jump on him??

[BUCKETHEAD]

Thanks for all the Compliments!

on board eight, does he crawl back up if you don't jump on him??

No, It does that by itself, Kinda like another intermisson.

[Bender]

look if you use DK2 you should send some cash to Jeff. (PERIOD)

there is a donate button on his site

if you use his work and don't pay him something, your just lame. shame on you!


I bought the physical rom for my DK board and still donated some $ when I downloaded it for my mame machine

[TheShanMan]

Bought a DK from Frizz a few weeks ago, and just got my D2K multigame kit to pop in there on Monday. Hopefully tonight I'll have time to plug it in and play!

[Ummon]

Bought a DK from Frizz a few weeks ago, and just got my D2K multigame kit to pop in there on Monday. Hopefully tonight I'll have time to plug it in and play!

Well, that brings to mind an interesting question. Should the new owner of a used set pay a donation?

[CheffoJeffo]

Bought a DK from Frizz a few weeks ago, and just got my D2K multigame kit to pop in there on Monday. Hopefully tonight I'll have time to plug it in and play!

Well, that brings to mind an interesting question. Should the new owner of a used set pay a donation?

How does that spring to mind ?

Nobody bought a used one, but I would have to say no ... since it is hardware.

Have you paid for your copy yet ?