>>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<

[calder]

wow, on that link, there was a "build your own cab", at the bottom, just some paper cut out, do these exist for other games, if so, please link.

[saint]

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,26252.0.html
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=22729.0

[calder]

sweet, thanks.

[pinballwizard79]

Forgive me for not knowing this, especially since everyone is all passionate & ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about it but its hard to read through all this crap so I have to ask.

Can I download this from the author for a fee or not?

Or is it a find it on google, then buy the part so I don't feel like a jerk & etc sort of deal?

[pinballwizard79]

LOL @ no response.

[CheffoJeffo]

First link of the thread:

http://www.jeffsromhack.com/products/d2k.htm

And, yes, buy it so you don't feel like a jerk.

[stealthie]

Man is this a tough game.  About my only thought is that they should have made the 1st levels a bit easier, then make them tougher the 2nd time around.  Like on the 5th screen with the treadmill things on the bottom, maybe not include the spring looking things the first time?  Other than that it's a great game and can only hope this spawns more sequels to these old great games.

[Ummon]

I can't get past the fifth. I asked somewhere's and I forgot where and forgot what they said, but how do you get that last heart on level five - ie: where is it?

[Ummon]

Never mind, I figured it out. I was missing/forgetting where the last heart was. Got to the next screen - weird elevators - but didn't get past it, and haven't yet tried again.

[stealthie]

I got a question about the "official" rules for this game.  Are you suppose to start with 3 or 6 lives?  I have mine set to 3, but have seen a few youtube videos where they are using 6.

After playing it about 40 times I'v begun to get the hang of it.  A lot more enjoyable now.  I also like how DK jr makes an appearance.  A nice secretive touch.  So far I've only had one glitch on the 4th screen climbing on the final ladder to the right, when it moved up again Mario kept climbing an invisible ladder to the top of the screen.  Kinda weird, I wish I could have got a picture of it. 

Also I got a question after reading this thread.  My friend owns a small Pizza place and is interested in getting a D2K game at his Pizza place after playing mine for a bit.  Is it legal to have this game commercially?  He just doesn't want to run into any legal problems.  Thanks.

[SirPeale]

I doubt there would be a problem with this on location.

1) The copyright police don't go around pizza shops checking for bootleg games.  It just doesn't happen.

2) AFAIK Nintendo is aware of this project and have given their blessing not only for the game, but for the use of the artwork.

[stealthie]

2) AFAIK Nintendo is aware of this project and have given their blessing not only for the game, but for the use of the artwork.

Really?  That's good to hear.  Some people in this thread made it sound like Nintendo isn't aware of this project and would take action when they found out. 

[Ummon]

Hey, I got past the weird-ass elevator level. Second time there, got it first dude (or last, depending on how you look at it - took me all six to get past the pie dumper level!). However, I jumped right in the first fire on the next board. But that one looks pretty easy, otherwise.

[TheShanMan]

Sounds like you've given D2K a good try, Ummon. You did end up buying it, right???

[Ummon]

Since you bring it up, I'll consider whether it's worth buying. Committee's in session.

stealthie: I wondered why it defaults at six men, but in the dip switches it's set for three. ??  The dip switch for extra men is at 7000, and indeed you get one then. I dunno.

[TheShanMan]

Well hopefully you'll make your decision and if it's "no", you'll delete the rom. I haven't downloaded it and will probably just wait until I get a DK and just buy the chip at that point. But I think it's pretty reasonable to download the rom and buy the chip if you have no plans to buy a DK. I've only played 2 games on Frizz's machine but that was enough to sell me on it. It's only right to support the guys that contribute to our hobby, rather than rip them off!

[Ummon]

Well, I think of it like this: If one was never going to buy a thing to begin with, then whomever created it isn't really missing out on any revenue.

[TheShanMan]

Nice rationalization. Make a decision and either buy it or delete it!

[CheffoJeffo]

Well, I think of it like this: If one was never going to buy a thing to begin with, then whomever created it isn't really missing out on any revenue.

Sounds like pretty much every MAMEr out there ...   

[stealthie]

Well, I think of it like this: If one was never going to buy a thing to begin with, then whomever created it isn't really missing out on any revenue.

Sounds like pretty much every MAMEr out there ...   

Sadly it does.  I currently play D2K on mame, but will buy it and the artwork once I buy a DK cabinet.  Hoping I will find one of May 2nd at Super Auctions.  I think he would sell more if he offered it on Mame, but along with that comes a whole bunch of new legal issues.  I did buy the DK Foundry for $10 a couple years ago when he was selling them. 

Does anyone know how long the D2K artwork is planned to be produced?  It does say limited and I want to make sure I get them.

[TheShanMan]

Well, I think of it like this: If one was never going to buy a thing to begin with, then whomever created it isn't really missing out on any revenue.

Sounds like pretty much every MAMEr out there ...   

Yes... An example of why many in the arcade game collecting community look down upon MAME and the MAME community.

[CheffoJeffo]

To be fair (did I just say that?) there are a number of different mindsets at play and each draws different lines to be crossed.

Most of the collectors that I know (myself included) have no compunction about buying a 48-in-1 or 60-in-1 board, which are ripped-off versions of MAME and include non-licensed ROMS. A fair number of those folks recondition cabinets using those boards and sell them, sometimes to fund true preservation initiatives.

Most of the non-collectors that I know feel the opposite way and take great offense when talking about ripping-off the work of the MAMEDevs. At the same time, they see no problem in downloading eleventy brazilion ROMsets.

For my part, I want to support as many people who do good works for this hobby as I can, with the caveat that it makes little sense for me to build a MAME box to play the games on a 48-in-1 or 60-in-1. If the MAMEDevs would accept a $5 donation for every 48-in-1 or 60-in-1 board I use, I would be glad to make the donation. Of course, that route is fraught with legal troubles.

To the extent that "MAMErs" see ripping off the MAMEDevs as bad, I see it as worse when people do the same with the folks who are generating new works. D2K may be a "hack" or a "bootleg", but it is a genuinely new coinop experience. Is it more important to recreate the old or create something new ? 

Ummon and I are decidely on different sides of the line, but I can't overlook the fact that I run a pair of cabinets with multiboards instead of investing the time and effort to build MAME boxes to do the same thing.

[TheShanMan]

I don't have a multi-board, but the difference I see there is that while I imagine MAMEdev disapproves, they don't make money off of MAME so there is no loss of revenue nor any "gray area" in regard to revenue (Ummon's "I wouldn't buy if that was my only option, so it's OK to use it without paying" argument).

And just to add to my earlier comment, I don't think all the reasons arcade game collectors look down on MAMErs are valid (some certainly are though). For instance, some arcade game collectors look down on MAME but have multi-boards!

[FrizzleFried]

Well, I think of it like this: If one was intending to steal a thing to begin with, then whomever created it isn't really missing out on any revenue.

Fixed...

[Ummon]

Well, I think of it like this: If one was intending to steal a thing to begin with, then whomever created it isn't really missing out on any revenue.

Fixed...

Hahahahahah.


Incidentally, most of what I do for people - outside of the things I sell, which are scant and few - I do 'for free'. My training vids and information, for example. I'm in no way inferring a 'tit-for-tat' in that statement, but rather indicating how I operate.

[TheShanMan]

What does that have to do with ripping off D2K?

[FrizzleFried]

I guess because he "gives away" stuff,  he feels it's OK to "take" stuff from others?   

I dunno.  From my perspective... if Jeff were to decide to "give away" his work,  that would be OK... but since Jeff clearly wishes to be compensated for his hard work (and it's not like he's asking MAJOR DOUGH)... I think the "right thing" to do would be to pay the man.

You're obviously going to do what you want... just remember... karma's a ---smurfette--- sometimes.

[isucamper]

There are two points of view on media "sharing", and unfortunately, it's not black and white.  There are lots of ways to look at it, but in my own (very humble and non opposing) opinion, it boils down to the "corporate" point of view vs the "freedom" point of view. 

The corporate point of view is:  "We own this art.  If you want to experience it, give us some damn money for it.  If you steal it, we're going to frack you up good and make an example of you."   All well and good.  Certainly, you can debate that the original artist is entitled to compensation (if he/she wants it) if his/her art is making people happy. 

However, the freedom point of view (also known as the "Woody Guthrie" point of view) is that... "THIS IS ART."   Intrinsically, art is not owned.  If you created this art for the purpose of making money off of it, then you did it for entirely the wrong reasons.

Furthermore, if the art is actually good, the artist will be compensated for it regardless of whether you force people to pay money to experience it.  For instance, there are countless CDs I have purchased only after getting hooked on a musician when I downloaded some of their music.  I never would have discovered them if I hadn't downloaded their songs and I never would have bought any of their CDs.  In that case, they actually made more sales BECAUSE I downloaded their music.

As it applies to our hobby, I would have never dreamed of collecting arcade cabinets before I built my MAME cabinet.  Now I find myself preparing my basement for just that purpose.  Having these games, and playing these games, has made me appreciate them more, to the point that I want to own the actual art in their original forms. 

Just my two cents.    There's a great song by the band Wilco called "White Light" which kinda puts it in perspective.   

"And if the whole world’s singing your songs
And all of your paintings have been hung
Just remember, what was yours is everyone’s from now on"

Makes more sense and seems more just than Lars Urlich crying that he can't put another golden toilet into his golden bathroom because someone downloaded a Metallica song.  The freedom point of view forces the art to stand on its own.  People will pay for it because they want to, not because you are forcing them to.  If your art hasn't inspired people to pay for it, then you shouldn't force them.  It probably wasn't that good to begin with.

[CheffoJeffo]

While I think that isucamper puts forth an interesting posit, I think that it misses what, for me, is the germane issue -- these works are put together by people and those people have their own views as to how they feel when their works are "shared" and how they are "shared".

Jeff was, quite rightfully, pissed at how D2K came to be included in misfit MAME.

For me, the issues are very simple:

- Jeff is, and has been, a force for good in this hobby
- Will Jeff stop doing cool things as a result of what happened with D2K ?

If the answer is "Yes", then we, as a hobby, have lost and I, for one, dislike seeing people dismiss the feelings of those good folks (and, yes, I do the same exact thing to the MAMEDevs when I use an xx-in-1 board).

For me, it would be a similar issue to saint rolling up the tent because somebody did something to piss him off enough that he just didn't want to bother continuing putting out the effort and $$$ to support us as he has.

We have far too few resources in this hobby and the people who "put up" are often uncompensated and do it as a labour of love. Most often they do this at their own expense, be it monetary expense, time take away from family or other more immediately personal measures. Those who do charge for things often estill end up taking a "net loss", when you look at it.

Whenever we make decisions that benefit ourselves, whether it be to buy an xx-in-1 board, download ROMS, play D2K without paying, etc. there are consequences.

I don't think that the MAMEDevs are going to stop developing MAME simply because I buy a 48-in-1 to replace my vertical MAME box.

OTOH, I'm not convinced that Jeff is going to put forth as much effort as he has on coin-op projects.

I would gladly make a donation to the MAMEDevs for using a 48-in-1 and I suspect that there are those who would say the same thing about D2K (and some have).

It would be interesting to see how many of us actually would, if we had the opportunity.

[isucamper]

Jeff was, quite rightfully, pissed at how D2K came to be included in misfit MAME.

If this is true, I think Jeff needs to do some soul searching and ask himself:  What's really important?  That he makes a few bucks for his effort, or that a larger number of people are playing his game? 

Honestly, if money was his motivation to begin with, and his motivation to continue, then I doubt we will be missing much from his future efforts.  Artistically, you can't really, truely, be inspired by money.  It has to go deeper than that. 

Money is a thing.  He will get it money, he will spend it, and it will be gone.   However, if what he has created is good, people will play his game and he will be remembered for that far longer than his money lasts.

Different strokes for different folks... but anytime I create something and send it out into the ether, the only thing I care about is that people experience it, and get the enjoyment from it that it was intended to give.   The only time I feel loss, is if people don't discover it.

[CheffoJeffo]

Jeff was, quite rightfully, pissed at how D2K came to be included in misfit MAME.

If this is true, I think Jeff needs to do some soul searching and ask himself:  What's really important?  That he makes a few bucks for his effort, or that a larger number of people are playing his game? 

Are you really defending the lies, attempts at extortion and other crap that happened ?

You seem to be hung up on the money and that isn't what I am talking about (although I would contribute to MAMEDevs for my 48-in-1s) -- I can count on two hands (and some toes) the number of folks that have contributed money to this place, but I used saint as an example.

The entire point is that if folks piss off the people who do good to the point that they don't want to bother, then what do we do ? I'm presuming that arcadecontrols.isucamper.com isn't an option. 

Honestly, if money was his motivation to begin with, and his motivation to continue, then I doubt we will be missing much from his future efforts.  Artistically, you can't really, truely, be inspired by money.  It has to go deeper than that. 

Money is a thing.  He will get it money, he will spend it, and it will be gone.   However, if what he has created is good, people will play his game and he will be remembered for that far longer than his money lasts.

Different strokes for different folks... but anytime I create something and send it out into the ether, the only thing I care about is that people experience it, and get the enjoyment from it that it was intended to give.   The only time I feel loss, is if people don't discover it.

Again, you miss the point entirely ... even if EVERYBODY that downloads D2K were to pay Jeff, he still wouldn't make much money.

The point is that folks are blatantly disrespecting him.

I seem to recall something similar happening at KLOV recently ... and I think that we are all poorer for the fact that Peter Hirschberg was disrespected to the point that he withdrew.

You seem to think it is all about money, and it isn't.

EDIT: I'm actually pretty pissed at this and can't just let it go

then I doubt we will be missing much from his future efforts

because it points out, as TheShanMan points out above, one of the reasons why the coin-op collector community gets so upset with the MAIMers. I can't see how anybody can say something like this about Jeff. How many of you have played his version of Dragon's Lair ? Or otherwise benefited from work he's done, particularly vis-a-vis Laserdisc games. It certainly seems that isucamper has with his playing of these games via Daphne.

Has he let his domain registration expire ? Coincidence or pissed off ? Sad in either case

[TheShanMan]

Isu, more power to you if you want to do stuff for free. But don't expect others to do so. There is absolutely nothing wrong with making money from a creation, and to imply that the arcade game community would be better off without D2K because he charges for it is ridiculous. I am SURE that if anyone has thought about doing a creation along the lines of D2K they have given thought to the fact that their work will inevitably be ripped off for use in a MAME derivative like MisfitMAME.

It may be "art" but it's also "hard work". He's choosing to trade hard work for money. Something I'm sure you do as well. Don't tell me that you put in your 40 hours for free because money is just a "thing".

[CheffoJeffo]

What worse is that Jeff has done FAR more stuff than D2K and provided it for free ... freeplay for Phoenix, Frogger, Kangaroo and something else ... the enhancements for Dragon's Lair and Space Ace ... some awesome tutorials for hacking ROMs for use in MAME.

 

[isucamper]

Of course, I aboslutely do not defend lies, extortion, or people disrespecting other people in any fashion.  The point I wanted to argue isn't how his work got shared, that was inevitable.  I was talking about overall philospohy of how to deal with it now that it's out there.  If he was disrespected, that's personal, something for him to deal with.  But the fact that his work was shared, that would have happened eventually with or without him being disrespected.  It doesn't mean he should stop working if it's something he likes to do and it is something he's passionate about.  Thats just stupid.  It's not like his work was plagerized or like he isn't getting credit for what he did (which is a far more damnable offense). 

I can count on two hands (and some toes) the number of folks that have contributed money to this place, but I used saint as an example.

I thought I was contributing when I bought his book. 

because it points out, as TheShanMan points out above, one of the reasons why the coin-op collector community gets so upset with the MAIMers. I can't see how anybody can say something like this about Jeff. How many of you have played his version of Dragon's Lair ? Or otherwise benefited from work he's done, particularly vis-a-vis Laserdisc games. It certainly seems that isucamper has with his playing of these games via Daphne.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. 

Isu, more power to you if you want to do stuff for free. But don't expect others to do so. There is absolutely nothing wrong with making money from a creation,

Absolutely not.  I guess I just feel that if someone creates something and then makes me pay for it in order to experience it, if it ends up being crap (which is usually the case these days in the film and music industry), then it is actually me that has been stolen from.  Where as if you are more generous with your creations, if you are desearving, you're rewards will come anyway.  And if they don't come, they what you created wasn't worth peoples time or money to begin with. 

There's a whole... machine... out there that is designed to steal from us.  They create art for the purpose of holding the copywrite and charging you for it.  Then, when they don't get their payoff (because what they were selling was crap anyway), they blame the internet for it.  (I'm not at all saying any of this applies to the DK2 situation)

and to imply that the arcade game community would be better off without D2K because he charges for it is ridiculous.

I never said anything of the sort.  Its at this point in Internet arguements, when people start putting words in my mouth, that I usually take my leave. 

I am SURE that if anyone has thought about doing a creation along the lines of D2K they have given thought to the fact that their work will inevitably be ripped off for use in a MAME derivative like MisfitMAME.

And hopefully, the fact that their game would be available to a very wide audience makes them happy.

It may be "art" but it's also "hard work". He's choosing to trade hard work for money. Something I'm sure you do as well. Don't tell me that you put in your 40 hours for free because money is just a "thing".

Do not confuse work with art.  There is no love put in to a janitor scrubbing a toilet (that's not my job by the way).  The janitor doesn't feel a special bond with the toilet when he's done cleaning it.  We're talking about something, completely, totally different.  Just because you work hard on something, doesn't mean you have the right to anyone's money.

[CheffoJeffo]

I can count on two hands (and some toes) the number of folks that have contributed money to this place, but I used saint as an example.

I thought I was contributing when I bought his book. 

Winner ... I totally overlooked that.

 

because it points out, as TheShanMan points out above, one of the reasons why the coin-op collector community gets so upset with the MAIMers. I can't see how anybody can say something like this about Jeff. How many of you have played his version of Dragon's Lair ? Or otherwise benefited from work he's done, particularly vis-a-vis Laserdisc games. It certainly seems that isucamper has with his playing of these games via Daphne.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. 

Sorry to be obtuse ... was just trying to make the point that we are talking about someone who has done a TON for this hobby and made things freely available that have benefited the majority without any charge. Have you played the DL and SA enhancements ? How about the other Laserdisc games that you wouldn't be able to play in Daphne without his prior efforts ?

To say something like "I doubt we will be missing much from his future efforts" when, it seem pretty clear that you have completely failed to recognize his previous efforts makes me ill.

Have you benefited from any of the stuff Jeff has done ?

Look into it and answer honestly.

THEN tell me if you would view his withdrawal from the community as a loss ...

[CheffoJeffo]

and to imply that the arcade game community would be better off without D2K because he charges for it is ridiculous.

I never said anything of the sort.  Its at this point in Internet arguements, when people start putting words in my mouth, that I usually take my leave. 

I was going to make a clever(ish) striekout / fixt quote and be done with it, but it seems to me that you are commenting (hence putting words in your own mouth) where you don't really know the story.

I'm totally fine with having the debate you seem to want to have (I might not even be on the opposite side), but that isn't the discussion here -- we're talking about a specific guy and his specific work.

Any other baggage belongs to the rest of us.

[isucamper]

I'm totally fine with having the debate you seem to want to have (I might not even be on the opposite side), but that isn't the discussion here -- we're talking about a specific guy and his specific work.

I started in on this thread when TheShanMan was putting some pressure on Ummon that rubbed me the wrong way (you downloaded it, you owe money).  If that was off topic, I apologize.

As far as the Daphne stuff:  Daphne is a great great wonderful incredible program that I love.  AND.  I don't remember having to pay to it to use it.  However, it's a different beast than an original work.  There's very little creative expression involved in making or enhancing an emulator.

Regardless, it is an incredible tool that I'll end up donating to as I finish up my cab.  And I wonder how Don Bluth feels about that?

[TheShanMan]

Isu, more power to you if you want to do stuff for free. But don't expect others to do so. There is absolutely nothing wrong with making money from a creation,

Absolutely not.  I guess I just feel that if someone creates something and then makes me pay for it in order to experience it, if it ends up being crap (which is usually the case these days in the film and music industry), then it is actually me that has been stolen from.  Where as if you are more generous with your creations, if you are desearving, you're rewards will come anyway.  And if they don't come, they what you created wasn't worth peoples time or money to begin with. 

There's a whole... machine... out there that is designed to steal from us.  They create art for the purpose of holding the copywrite and charging you for it.  Then, when they don't get their payoff (because what they were selling was crap anyway), they blame the internet for it.  (I'm not at all saying any of this applies to the DK2 situation)

No, you have not been stolen from when you watch a bad movie - it was your choice, and it's up to you to choose wisely.

And no, the "machine" doesn't steal from you either. You're under no obligation to buy something if you don't think it's worth it. And if you do think it's worth it, then they certainly aren't stealing from you. You may find that some things that you like are more expensive than you're willing to pay, but to call that theft on their part is ridiculous.

and to imply that the arcade game community would be better off without D2K because he charges for it is ridiculous.

I never said anything of the sort.  Its at this point in Internet arguements, when people start putting words in my mouth, that I usually take my leave. 

You may not have said it in so many words, but this sure seems to imply it:

Honestly, if money was his motivation to begin with, and his motivation to continue, then I doubt we will be missing much from his future efforts.

I am SURE that if anyone has thought about doing a creation along the lines of D2K they have given thought to the fact that their work will inevitably be ripped off for use in a MAME derivative like MisfitMAME.

And hopefully, the fact that their game would be available to a very wide audience makes them happy.

I hope so too, but I fear that too often they would be discouraged enough to not even bother.

It may be "art" but it's also "hard work". He's choosing to trade hard work for money. Something I'm sure you do as well. Don't tell me that you put in your 40 hours for free because money is just a "thing".

Do not confuse work with art.  There is no love put in to a janitor scrubbing a toilet (that's not my job by the way).  The janitor doesn't feel a special bond with the toilet when he's done cleaning it.  We're talking about something, completely, totally different.  Just because you work hard on something, doesn't mean you have the right to anyone's money.

There's love put into my job. Does that mean I shouldn't expect to be compensated for my hard work? Of course not! And ABSOLUTELY just because you work hard on something you DO have the right to charge whatever you want for it, and at that point people can decide whether it's worth it to them!

[TheShanMan]

I started in on this thread when TheShanMan was putting some pressure on Ummon that rubbed me the wrong way (you downloaded it, you owe money).  If that was off topic, I apologize.

Sorry for not saying that it's OK to steal.

[isucamper]

Sorry for not saying that it's OK to steal.

You haven't read a single word of what I wrote today.

And if you don't feel cheated and stolen from when a marketing company guises up a crap product, then, I guess capitolism loves you.  Unless you have ESP, there's no way to know if something is "good" until you experience it yourself.