Wii Passes Xbox 360 in Worldwide Sales

[AtomSmasher]

http://kotaku.com/gaming/retailed/wii-passes-xbox-360-in-worldwide-sales-292442.php

It happened. Even with a year headstart, the Xbox 360 has been eclipsed by the Nintendo Wii in sales. According to independent tracker Video Game Chartz, the Wii just passed the 360 this week.

[hulkster]

http://kotaku.com/gaming/retailed/wii-passes-xbox-360-in-worldwide-sales-292442.php

It happened. Even with a year headstart, the Xbox 360 has been eclipsed by the Nintendo Wii in sales. According to independent tracker Video Game Chartz, the Wii just passed the 360 this week.

everyone knew this was coming, and personally i say more power to ya nintendo.  i think its funny how i see and read about the "hardcore gamers" (i use that term loosely) are saying that the wii is a fad and that the "novelty" will wear off.  i dont think so but lets just say that by next christmas, everyone hates the wii and no one wants to buy it anymore....it will still probably already have sold 20 million consoles by that time and probably be way ahead of the 360 and ps3.  although i could see 360 sales spike this christmas because of a stellar list of games it has coming out (that is if they dont all get delayed, which seems to be the current theme of some).  so even if the "novelty"  wears off, it will still be the number one seller. 

i myself am not interested in the casual games.  im waiting for metroid (this tuesday!) and mario galaxy and maybe tiger woods golf.  so my wii is gathering dust right now but thats mainly because i only have wii sports and zelda to play.  my game library will have tripled by christmas at least, so that will change.  so i dont think its a novelty at all, its just that the developers are late to jump on the bandwagon because they thought it would suck.  give it one more year, and if the third party games still blow, then the wii will only be for casual gamers i would suspect.

[shmokes]

I am actually among those who think that the Wii is a novelty to some degree, and I don't think that they will maintain the number one position throughout this cycle.  I love my Wii (though hardly ever play it), and it's great to see Nintendo back on top where they belong.  And even though the Wii will be overtaken in sales by one or both of the other systems, they're already past the point of no return in terms of success, so hopefully the Wii will give them enough credibility back that they can develop a true contender next time.

There are two things, IMO, that make it unlikely that the Wii will maintain market dominance.  1) The controller is flaky.  I'm sorry, but it is.  Let's talk about something simple.  Go into the Wii menu, point the controller at the screen and then rotate it as though you want the finger to be pointing down, instead of up.  Watch how jittery your cursor becomes.  For more important examples simply look at EVERY SINGLE GAME that uses the accelerometer, rather than exclusively relying on the pointer.  If the game calls for very broad gestures, like Wii Sports Bowling or baseball, it's fine because the gestures required are so broad and linear.  But how about the putting game in Wii Sports Golf, or everything about Wii Sports Boxing?  Terrible.  Not even acceptable.  These problems apply across the board.  Even Nintendo's flagship title, Time Princess, suffers from it.  How many times have you tried to initiate the shield attack with the nun-chuck and had Link perform a spinning sword attack instead?  How many times have you tried to do a spinning sword attack and had Link do nothing instead?  This kind of thing simply doesn't happen with buttons.  It's one thing with a game like Street Fighter where you may try to perform some move and it doesn't work, but in that case it didn't work because you failed to do it correctly.  As long as you make the correct motions, your on-screen character will perform EVERY time.  This is not the case with the Wii.  The controller is a brilliant idea, but it's not where it needs to be yet.

And 2) the system is WAY underpowered.  The graphics are comparable with the original Xbox, and the sound can't even be compared with that.  The sound is more along the lines of the Nintendo 64 or PSX.  It's easy to say, "Sure, the graphics aren't as good as the 360 or PS3, but they're good enough."  And they are.  They are good enough.  Right now.  But "good enough" is not a static term.  There was a time when NES's graphics were more than "good enough", but that doesn't mean a system released today that was not capable of more would continue to enjoy that status.  The Wii's graphical capabilities are about five years old right now -- meaning they are on par with what could be produced on game consoles five years ago.  That's not terrible, especially considering what they bring to the table in terms of a brand new way to interface with the games.  But look four or five years down the road, when all three of these systems have mass market prices.  The Wii's graphics are going to be 10 years old!.  It's sound capabilities only on par with 15 year old systems.  This will become a progressively bigger problem for Nintendo as time goes on and developers make better and better use of the 360 and PS3's complicated multi-core architecture.  It will be interesting to see how Nintendo deals with it.

Finally, online is an area that, for whatever reason, Nintendo just can't grok.  How they could get it SOOO terribly wrong after MS has been showing them throughout the original Xbox's lifespan how it's done is completely beyond me.  I don't list this as one of the two reasons that Nintendo won't maintain its lead, because if this were the only problem, I don't think it would be enough by itself to hold them back.  But it is a pretty damned big misstep and sooner or later they're going to have to learn what online gaming means, at least for Americans, if they want to remain successful.

[hulkster]

well to each his own i guess, but your opinion is a common one i see amongst the more versed gamer...however....

if the core gamer (like you and myself) get bored with the wii down the road, which i may unless more games like metroid, mario, etc come out, who is left to buy the console?  EVERYONE ELSE. 

the 360 has sold 10 million units to who?  core gamers.  what about my grandparents that last played a videogame when pong first came out.  i kid you not, my grandfather always talks about pong when he seems me playing a game.  however, they recently asked my mom for a nintendo wii for their 52nd wedding anniversary because they played one over at their neices house.  thats crazy.  and what if they only buy the wii for wii sports?  what if they only buy one other game over the span of 5 years? 

well....what if 20 million families (spanning all age generations) do the same thing?  thats a crazy amount of consoles dude.  out of the people i know personally, i have 4 true gamers that have multiple systems like myself.  their families?  all have wii's but nothing else.  my mom could give a crap about the 360 or the ps3 because it has "too many buttons".  but my mom wants to play the wii.  will that wear off?  it may for you and me, but not for the older generation.  my dad and stepmom are STILL playing solitaire every day for at least 45 minutes when they come home from work.  it never wears off for them, but it wore off for me after i played for a week during computer class in school when it first came out.  the attention span of us gamers is a lot shorter than that of the older generation.  and THAT is what is going to drive wii sales after us core gamers are bored. 

so i agree with your statement about the wiimote not being perfect.  i see the jittery stuff, and probably the only good games coming out for the wii that we will like are first party titles.  however, my parents and grandparents never noticed a thing about the controller.  they dont care frankly.  the core gamers want graphics, online, deep story modes, and new cool stuff.  i happen to be in that camp, and i also want a different experience and i love my nintendo games.  but the people that have never played games before or havent in umpteen years (like my grandfather), the wii is a godsend. 

so i think you have to look outside the box, and understand the sales for the wii arent going to be coming from hardcore gamers per se, but from the other side of the fence.  thats the reason the wii will win this generation, not because people like myself cant wait to get their hands on metroid...those kind of games are few and far between unfortunately for the wii.  i think nintendo will come out with a better version of the wii next gen, and improve upon the controller and hardware.  it may not be hidef, but it sure will be fun, and MEGA fun for the grandparents and other non gamer families.

[SavannahLion]

On point #1, my Wii exhibits the same problem. After some experimentation, it seems to be a problem with how I've had it set up.

Try this, move in closer to the TV screen, then try the rotation trick again. The problem goes away as you move closer, apparently the IRL need to be strong for it to work properly. Probably why Nintendo stuck ten LEDs in the sensor bar. Interference also causes problems. The Wiimote picks up IRL from the sun, candles, and even from itself. I have a mirror on the same wall as the TV and the Wiimote picks up the reflection from the sensor bar on the wall behind me. Took me a while to figure that one out.

Interestingly, the jitters might be more of a software algorithm problem than a hardware issue. Elebits doesn't exhibit the jitters when rotating. (To be fair, I haven't played Elebits since about two or three Wii updates ago, right around the time I noticed the jitters for the first time.)

As for it being used in games, that particular feature was never really intended to be used in games. It was added during R&D due to, as you mentioned, the inaccuracy of the accelerometer for fine control. If a developer wants to use it... well it's all on their shoulders at that point. 

In regards to point #2. It's valid, but it's a persistent fanboy argument usually void of any discussion of the underlying marketing going on. Nintendo has made no secret that the Wii is not intended to compete with PS3 or 360 in the graphics department. The PS3/360 tends to target a different crowd than the Wii does. If anything, the 360 and PS3 are in direct competition and the Wii is just that bastard child that fills a niche gap. I've been seeing a lot of gamers who own either a 360 or PS3 also own a Wii. Arguing points on sound is also a fanboy argument. It might be valid if everybody owns a Vogon sound system. I know a small handful of people who own any sort of modern sound system who also own a modern console. The majority of console owners I know are still dicking around with ten year old stereos.

I don't necessarily agree with Nintendo's decissions on their hardware, just like I think Microsoft and Sony made some really bad choices with some aspects of theirs. You're also right, to some degree, that in five years the Wii is going to look old (in five years, would it matter? New console by that time anyways). I also agree Nintendo is making some less than stellar moves with their online services. But when you boil it all down, the whole my-console-is-better-than-yours argument is just a line of ---smurf-poop---. Everybody arguing whatever console is better already made their purchase decision despite the drawbacks each side cites. Who the ---fudgesicle--- are they trying to convince? It's as if core gamers argue amongst themselves as if they're trying to justify their purchase. 

Think about it. The vast majority of people buy the consoles for the games they want to play. More power to the gamer who thinks having a particular hardware component makes a world of difference in their enjoyment of a particular game.

Back to the initial subject at hand.

The Wii is smoking right now. I was at a Wal*Mart and they had signs restricting purchases of Wii consoles to one console per person every 24 hours. The lock cases were overflowing with PS3's and 360's. The Wii section had a grand total of zero. Even the Wii games were looking a little barren.

Target was fairing a little better. Many more games in stock, but zero Wii consoles. Not many 360's. Target had so many PS3's, they had extras shoved behind the 360's there.

What's the hot ticket with the Wii right now? Is everyone buying the Wii for the new Metroid?

[hulkster]

i dont think they are buying the wii for the new metroid....i think they are buying the wii because they have been trying to buy one since it came out just so they can play wii sports and zelda or whatever.  the initial hype will only die down once everyone can get their hands on a wii.  and then its all about the games for longevity.  but i dont see the hype dying down for at least another 6 months.  and by then, mario kart will be all the buzz, plus smash brothers, mario galaxy, and metroid will all have come out.  thats 4 or 5 reasons to own a wii for the core gamer.

[SavannahLion]

i dont think they are buying the wii for the new metroid....i think they are buying the wii because they have been trying to buy one since it came out just so they can play wii sports and zelda or whatever. 

I check the store stock out every couple of weeks or so and for the last four or five months, the stores had enough Wii's in stock. Never nearly as many as the MS or Sony offerings, but there was always a few Wii's to purchase. The sign I mentioned at Wal*Mart went up this past week. So something changed just recently.

[hulkster]

i dont think they are buying the wii for the new metroid....i think they are buying the wii because they have been trying to buy one since it came out just so they can play wii sports and zelda or whatever. 

I check the store stock out every couple of weeks or so and for the last four or five months, the stores had enough Wii's in stock. Never nearly as many as the MS or Sony offerings, but there was always a few Wii's to purchase. The sign I mentioned at Wal*Mart went up this past week. So something changed just recently.

i think it was Escape from Bug Island 

[Dervacumen]

The sign I mentioned at Wal*Mart went up this past week. So something changed just recently.

i think it was Escape from Bug Island 

[SavannahLion]

The sign I mentioned at Wal*Mart went up this past week. So something changed just recently.

i think it was Escape from Bug Island 

[shmokes]

Whachoo mean, the Wii is not intended to compete with 360 or PS3?  Microsoft could just as easily say, "The Zune is not intended to compete with the iPod."  It wouldn't change the fact that the iPod is its direct competitor.  Frankly, the price of a 360 is a lot closer to the Wii than it is to a PS3.  If anything, the Wii and the 360 are direct competitors while the PS3 is some exclusive luxury item.  Which is also ridiculous.  All three of them are consoles that are competing against each other.  All three of them go to the same trade shows.  Reggie Fils Aime talks about the competing boxes on a regular basis (and how Wii is handing them their asses).  When a person who has a Wii and a 360 goes to the store to rent or buy one videogame, they have to make a choice whether to get a videogame for their 360 or their Wii.  They are competitors.  There is a finite amount of money going to be spent on home consoles and the games that go along with them, and no one company is going to get it all.  They are all competing for your videogame dollar.

The number of homes with surround sound is probably getting close to 40 - 50% (it was 33% in 2004, 21% in 2001).

Also, the only next-gen system that I own and it is the only one that I will own for a long time, is the Wii.  Also, with the possible exception of Tim Schafer (currently running the studio Double-fine, but previously at Lucas Arts), Nintendo is my favorite videogame company by far, and has been since the NES.  But my personal affinity for the company, my fan-boyism if you prefer, has no bearing on the facts I listed above.  The controller is significantly less precise than it should be.  The system is significantly less powerful, both graphics and processing for AI and physics, etc., than it should be.  The online component is weaker than it should be.  These are major flaws, and they have been overlooked mainly because what it brings to the table is unlike anything we've seen before.  But that honeymoon is unlikely to last forever.  In two years Wii controls will seem pretty common-place, as we'll have been playing Wii games for almost three years at that point.  But the graphics are going to look far more dated at that time than they do right now, and they already look pretty dated.

[hulkster]

well i agree with you shmokes on some points, and i agree that the graphics will look very dated in a few years....but for me personally, that wont matter.

graphics do not matter at all when it comes to wii sports.  the game is fun, and its cartoony...not photo realistic, and im okay with that.  im not trying to start a graphics war or anything like that, im just saying that even though the graphics on the wii may look dated, as long as the games are fun, i really truly dont care.  street fighter 2 turbo's graphics are crap, but its 20x more fun than street fighter EX.  so as long as nintendo can continue to make FUN games, im okay with the graphics being cartoony and not as realistc. 

the problem comes with the third parties trying to port their hi def stuff over to the wii.  but thats the reason i own a 360 to begin with.  i play the 360 when i want hi def, i play the wii when i want fun original games.

[shmokes]

I'm totally with you with a lot of games.  But some things that are really great can't be done on the Wii.  Look at the new types of gameplay made available with the graphics and physics capabilities of the 360 and PS3 in Assassin's Creed, for example.  And look at how much life is on the streets in GTA IV.  Couldn't be done on the Wii.

The Wii is cool, but I'd rather have paid $300 and have a more powerful console.  Or, Nintendo could have given us a more competitive console at the same price if they used a razor/razorblade business model like Sony and MS are using -- where you sell your system at a loss and make it up with royalties on every game sold.  Nintendo made a profit on the Wii hardware from day one.  Hardware-wise you're getting more for your money with the others, cos they're subsidizing your purchase.

[Howard_Casto]

There are two things, IMO, that make it unlikely that the Wii will maintain market dominance.  1) The controller is flaky.  I'm sorry, but it is.  Let's talk about something simple.  Go into the Wii menu, point the controller at the screen and then rotate it as though you want the finger to be pointing down, instead of up.  Watch how jittery your cursor becomes.  For more important examples simply look at EVERY SINGLE GAME that uses the accelerometer, rather than exclusively relying on the pointer.  If the game calls for very broad gestures, like Wii Sports Bowling or baseball, it's fine because the gestures required are so broad and linear.  But how about the putting game in Wii Sports Golf, or everything about Wii Sports Boxing?  Terrible.  Not even acceptable.  These problems apply across the board.  Even Nintendo's flagship title, Time Princess, suffers from it.  How many times have you tried to initiate the shield attack with the nun-chuck and had Link perform a spinning sword attack instead?  How many times have you tried to do a spinning sword attack and had Link do nothing instead?  This kind of thing simply doesn't happen with buttons.  It's one thing with a game like Street Fighter where you may try to perform some move and it doesn't work, but in that case it didn't work because you failed to do it correctly.  As long as you make the correct motions, your on-screen character will perform EVERY time.  This is not the case with the Wii.  The controller is a brilliant idea, but it's not where it needs to be yet.

And 2) the system is WAY underpowered.  The graphics are comparable with the original Xbox, and the sound can't even be compared with that.  The sound is more along the lines of the Nintendo 64 or PSX.  It's easy to say, "Sure, the graphics aren't as good as the 360 or PS3, but they're good enough."  And they are.  They are good enough.  Right now.  But "good enough" is not a static term.  There was a time when NES's graphics were more than "good enough", but that doesn't mean a system released today that was not capable of more would continue to enjoy that status.  The Wii's graphical capabilities are about five years old right now -- meaning they are on par with what could be produced on game consoles five years ago.  That's not terrible, especially considering what they bring to the table in terms of a brand new way to interface with the games.  But look four or five years down the road, when all three of these systems have mass market prices.  The Wii's graphics are going to be 10 years old!.  It's sound capabilities only on par with 15 year old systems.  This will become a progressively bigger problem for Nintendo as time goes on and developers make better and better use of the 360 and PS3's complicated multi-core architecture.  It will be interesting to see how Nintendo deals with it.

Finally, online is an area that, for whatever reason, Nintendo just can't grok.  How they could get it SOOO terribly wrong after MS has been showing them throughout the original Xbox's lifespan how it's done is completely beyond me.  I don't list this as one of the two reasons that Nintendo won't maintain its lead, because if this were the only problem, I don't think it would be enough by itself to hold them back.  But it is a pretty damned big misstep and sooner or later they're going to have to learn what online gaming means, at least for Americans, if they want to remain successful.

The first paragraph is unwarrented.  Maybe it's where you have your wii, but I can do what you said about the pointer just fine.  The sensor bar is much more sensitive to light than nintendo wants admit.  You should be playing your wii in a dark room with the curtains closed or in a room with diffused light sources.  Even accepting the fact that you are having issues and that a lot of other people are, my question to you is why would you want to browse with the wiimote up-side down?  Nobody would do that, and considering this I doubt nintendo added the complex math to the code of the wii interface to do this.  So it's really a bad example as you are trying to make the program do something it wasn't designed to do. 

The motion gesture issues are only issues because of the fact that all of your examples are first-gen games.  The upcoming Metroid Prime 3 basically uses motion gestures exclusively, rarely relying on button presses for anything but shooting and jumping.  Opening doors, pulling levers, ect.. all done with gestures.  Taking this into account and the fact that all the early reviews seem to comment on how immersive the controls are, I'd say the acclerometer issues are fixed.  The real issue with this one is that third parties are releasing poor games for the wii and/or haven't figured out how to code for the wiimote properly.  I have no doubt this won't be an issue people are talking about this time next year.


Yes the wii is waay under-powered.  Unfortunately for the gamer though, m$ and sony aren't doing anything with all the extra hp they have.  The xbox has been out over two years and it's had basically one stellar game released (GOW) and oh gosh, suprise, it's a fps!  Exciting environments, nah, just your typical muddy, generic , ww2 style battle-zones.  Sony doesn't have anything at all.  Bioshock is pretty, very pretty, but it just seems like a bad-rip-off of the old Hexxen titles to me.  Characters that shoot "magic" (in this case mutations) are nothing new.  I will admit that it looks amazing though, it just doesn't exactly play amazing, probably because, yet again, it's just another shiny fps.  they will both sell well though and that is the important thing.  The thing is though, as well as they sell, they can't top the sales charts of the wii games in the long-run.

Now you go look at the wii side.  While there aren't a lot of really games that I would like to play, there are a lot of games that are selling amazingly well.  I HATE mario party, for example, but it is consistently at the top of the charts. The casual gamer market is taking over (unfortunately for us) and they are buying up games we would consider crap like hot-cakes.  The casual gamer isn't going to want to buy a new system, if history shows anything they'll stick to what they've got until the system is literally dead and nobody releases any games anymore.  What the casual gamer has, is a wii.  If they don't have a wii, then their friend does, so when it's time to get a console, that is what they'll get.

With that being said, there are a lot of good titles on the wii right now, arguably more than the 360 and this fall marks the release of a lot of key titles for the wii.  The 360's fall lineup is impressive as well, but one of the two main block-busters is guitar hero III, which will also be on the wii.  On the other hand, the wii has metroid prime 3, mario galaxy, and super smash bros. If you like those games or not, the fact is, they sell well.  The sell well enough to be console sellers.  And I see no signs of this trend stopping in the future.  Nintendo will churn out it's IPs consistently over the life of the console and people will buy them, and the console.  Also the wii seems to be a great experiment on Nintendo's part, and they'll be releasing various controller gimmicks in the future and like them or not, a lot of people will buy them.   M$'s only crazy game seller, the one people will buy a console over, has been Halo.  Once Halo is released, nobody will have anything to look forward to (as it takes a loong time to make the next halo).


I totally agree with the online thing.  They screwed up, and in the long run it might come back to bite them.  On the other hand, m$ really only makes money off of online purchases, just like nintendo, and while the vc game sales have slumped, they are still selling well.  Since a lot of the VC titles are owned outright by nintendo, unlike m$ their sales are essentially pure profit.  Of course this hurts the consumer, but my point is I think they haven't utilized the online aspect much because they haven't had to.  Once the wii gets in a bit of a slump (and I DO imagine that will eventually happen, for a while at least) nintendo will step up the online aspect and hopefully, except for the retarded friend codes, all will be well.


And in closing I just need to point one thing out.  It has been almost a year and the Wii is STILL in short supply.  Think back through the entire history of video games, do you ever remember a console that has done that?  That should tell you something of it's longevity.  We can't talk about wii sales slowing down in the future until there are actually enough wiis to meet the current demand.  At this rate it'll be this time next year before every person currently wanting a wii has one.

[patrickl]

I have a Wii and I don't use it. I know several other people with a Wii and they also don't use it. It's one of those things where you play on it once and you completely fall in love with it. You play with it a few more times and you're done.

I guess I should buy new games, but I 'm afraid of spending so much money on a game that might turn out just as short lived again.

[AcidArmitage]

just wait until smash brothers comes out... thats when im getting a wii

[shmokes]

The upcoming Metroid Prime 3 basically uses motion gestures exclusively, rarely relying on button presses for anything but shooting and jumping.

Well, the bit about having to play the Wii in total darkness doesn't prove that there are no problems, it just shows that there is an inconvenient workaround for the problem.  And what you say about Metroid Prime 3 couldn't be further from the truth.  In fact, the exact opposite is true.  It simply does not use motion gestures exclusively.  In fact, it uses the pointer almost exclusively, using motion gestures only for minor actions like pulling levers and jumping while in morphball mode.  Speaking of which, check out IGN's review of the game.  They specifically mention the unreliability of the jump gesture while in morphball mode. 

With that being said, there are a lot of good titles on the wii right now, arguably more than the 360

WTF, Howard?  Is this early onset Alzheimer's or are you just a broken record?  We have been through this TWICE already.  Seriously, just stop saying it.  How can you possibly go in continuing to believe this when you have facts right in front of your face telling you that it is simply not true.

[shmokes]

Bioshock is pretty, very pretty, but it just seems like a bad-rip-off of the old Hexxen titles to me. . . I will admit that it looks amazing though, it just doesn't exactly play amazing, probably because, yet again, it's just another shiny fps. 

By the way, Howard, are you sure we are talking about the same Bioshock, because from the sound of the reviews it's got a little more than eye candy going for it.  In fact, 1up, the  notoriously hard to please game publication gave it a perfect score, among many others.  It's overall score from Metacritic (a site that just gathers up the scores from all the major publications and averages them together for a metascore) rates it 9.7 (360) and 9.6 (PC). 

You really need to be more careful with that tongue of yours.  It has a tendency to get you into trouble.

[AtomSmasher]

Bioshock is pretty, very pretty, but it just seems like a bad-rip-off of the old Hexxen titles to me. . . I will admit that it looks amazing though, it just doesn't exactly play amazing, probably because, yet again, it's just another shiny fps. 

By the way, Howard, are you sure we are talking about the same Bioshock, because from the sound of the reviews it's got a little more than eye candy going for it.  In fact, 1up, the  notoriously hard to please game publication gave it a perfect score, among many others.  It's overall score from Metacritic (a site that just gathers up the scores from all the major publications and averages them together for a metascore) rates it 9.7 (360) and 9.6 (PC). 

You really need to be more careful with that tongue of yours.  It has a tendency to get you into trouble.

And your beloved X-Play also gave it a 5 out of 5
http://www.g4tv.com/xplay/reviews/1579/BioShock.html

[Howard_Casto]

WTF guys?  Where are these "facts" you keep complaing about that I've "gotten wrong"?

I said there are more good games on the wii than the 360.  You can disagree with that, but you can't prove it wrong because your concept of a good game isn't the same as mine.  (I can't help it if you have poor taste in video games). 

I'm sure many reviewers love Bioshock, but quite frankly since it's a horrible game to ME then I could give a rat's ass! I mean the Halo series is hailed as the best thing since sliced bread, but it's still another worthless fps in my eyes. 

But if you'll look at my post, in this case I never really talked about what was good I talked about how the wii is selling more games and as a consequence, more consoles. 

WTF about the metroid prime comment?  Ok in metroid games you can do three basic things, jump, shoot and move around.  Those three are handled by traditional controls but EVERYTHING ELSE is handled by motion gestures.  So as I said, aside from jumping and shooting the majorty of things are done with motion guestures.  Sorry, I hadn't seen the ign interview.  Apparently in order for me to post something I have to read every single living thing about it that any of you might have possibly read or else I get flamed for being wrong!

And just for the record, how is playing a video game in a darkened room an inconvienant workaround?  I don't know who would want to play games with a bunch of bright lights on, it really detreacts from the gameplay.  So long as any light you do have on has a shade  will be fine. (overhead lights, and un-shaded or extremely bright light sources BEHIND the sensor bar are what causes problems). 


My point about bioshock was that I don't like it personally and I seem to be enjoying the wii a lot more than you guys are, and since the wii is selling a buttload faster than the other systems, perhaps other wii owners, like myself aren't so interested in what games like bioshock have to offer.  This was my response to the bit about the wii not having enough horseposer for the long run.  I dont think it needs it because quite frankly, a lot of wii owners and porential wii owners could care less.  Now any normal person would have caught what I meant, but as usual guys you over-reacted.

You know, I don't expect anyone to agree with me, but what I do expect is for people to allow me to express my opinion without having to worry that everything is worded just right so I don't get flamed for it.  If you (and at this point I'm talking directly to you two Atom and Schmokes) think I'm full of it an have nothing worthwhile to add then fine, but shut up about it!  Unfortunately for you guys you'll be the ones missing out as believe it or not I know a lot of stuff about various things.  I don't know everything about everything, but to simply flame every single frikkin post I make that you don't like (And make no mistake, that is what you are doing, when you flame someone over their opinion, not matter how you justify it to yourself, even if you hide behind the fact that a fact or two is out of place you are on a glorified witch hunt.) is dismissing all of my credibility and knowledge.  I disagree with a lot of the stuff you guys put up, but I still listen to what you have to say and I often post in agreement even though you have been extremely cruel to me in the past.  But if you guys want to hold one unforgivable mistake over me for the rest of my life (heaven forbid I didn't know the sales records of resident evil games!  oh the same!) then do so, just quit making public (or private for that matter) posts about it and leave me the hell alone!

So respectfully you guys just need to shut up. 

[shmokes]

Howard, the problem is you refuse to actually listen to anyone else.  I'm sure that you are every bit as aware as I am how stubborn you are, and how deliberately condescending and superior a tone you take when you express you "opinions".  The bit here, for example, with the claim that the Wii has more good games than the Xbox 360 started out as a blanket statement saying that all or most Wii games had a rating of over 7.0 and that there were more Wii games rated 7.0 or higher than 360 games.  That's not opinion.  I proceeded to point to objective data that showed that there were significantly more 8.0 or above games than the Wii had 7.0 or above.  Still, about two weeks later I watched you claim EXACTLY the same thing.  That sort of thing, whether you like it or not, is irritating.  It's disrespectful. 

Your exact quote about Metroid was that it, "basically uses motion gestures exclusively, rarely relying on button presses for anything but shooting and jumping.  Opening doors, pulling levers, ect.. all done with gestures.  Taking this into account and the fact that all the early reviews seem to comment on how immersive the controls are, I'd say the acclerometer issues are fixed."

I'm sorry if you were just unclear, but you made it sound as though basic movement in the game was controlled with the accelerometer.  I pointed out that it is not, it is done with the analog stick + the IR pointer.  Seeing as my complaint is with the quality of the accelerometer and not the pointer, Metroid, in my mind, fails to show that the problems are taken care of.  I further pointed to comments in a review specifically pointing out reliability issues with at least one part of the game where motion gestures are used.  How is that not relevant to the discussion?  As far as I can tell I posted about issues with the Wii that I believe would hold it back from maintaining its current position as market leader.  You posted a rebuttal to it which contained what I believed to be errors of reason which were leading you to an incorrect conclusion.  I pointed them out.  Big deal.

Now, my response to your comment about the Wii having more good games than the 360 (which is not dominated by FPS games, by the way.  If you want I can back that up with data too) was less cordial, but certainly an understandable response to someone who is acting like an ass.  You patronize and talk down to people.  When the things you are saying are wrong, it doesn't sit well with others.  When the things you are saying are not only wrong, but accompanied by comments like, "I don't comment unless I know exactly what I'm talking about," you end up getting "flamed" by people like me who are irritated by your attitude.

[Malenko]

My Nephews have a Wii and they dont play any Wii titles on it, except tony hawks downhill jam. They primarily play the gamecube games I bought them for it (Naruto and Day of Reckoning 2 and some others). They actually have quite a few Wii titles ( I spoil them at christmas) but the fact of the matter is I prolly could have got them a GC and a bunch more GC games and they'd have been happier.

I have an XBOX360 and I don't plan on buying Halo 3. I didn't like the first 2 that much, so there isn't really a point in finishing a fight I never started. Gears of War is awesome, and I own it, but I play Overlord and Forza II much more... while I do see your point of there being quite a few stellar FPS games for the 360, they aren't the only games. Microsoft honestly has done a stellar job of making the online gaming a feasible option, my only real gripe is using M$ points instead of real dollar amounts.

As for Nintendo, it doesn't bother me in the slightest that they have the best selling console; while I don't own one, I did buy one. I'd buy another for me if there were more games I'd play on it.  Nintendos lack of online doesnt really bother me, I dont play against other people much but I do download content alot.

[shmokes]

... while I do see your point of there being quite a few stellar FPS games for the 360, they aren't the only games.

And keep in mind, not only are they not the only games, they don't even make up anything close to a majority.

FPS games make up only 17% of the Xbox 360 lineup, trailing behind both Sports and Action/Adventure titles which make up 26% each.

[AtomSmasher]

My point about bioshock was that I don't like it personally and I seem to be enjoying the wii a lot more than you guys are, and since the wii is selling a buttload faster than the other systems, perhaps other wii owners, like myself aren't so interested in what games like bioshock have to offer.  This was my response to the bit about the wii not having enough horseposer for the long run.  I dont think it needs it because quite frankly, a lot of wii owners and porential wii owners could care less.  Now any normal person would have caught what I meant, but as usual guys you over-reacted.

You didn't just say that bioshock didn't interest you, you said "it just seems like a bad-rip-off of the old Hexxen titles to me"  Yes, thats an opinion, but its a very uninformed opinion.  If I went and said Super Paper Mario just seems like a bad rip off of Sonic the Hedgehog to me, would you just sit back and say "well thats his opinion so I'm not going to comment."   I could of written a long article showing point by point how you are wrong, but I decided to just point you to information from a source you trust.  In the past you've gone on about how X-Play is the only reviewer that matters, so I decided to show you that even XPlay loves bioshock, it's not just a bad rip-off of Hexen.

I'm sorry if you feel that providing evidence that you are wrong is like a personal attack to you, but I am only responding to the bad information given in your posts.  I expect the same from everyone else about my posts, which is why I try not to give wrong or misleading information.

[Texasmame]

http://kotaku.com/gaming/retailed/wii-passes-xbox-360-in-worldwide-sales-292442.php

It happened. Even with a year headstart, the Xbox 360 has been eclipsed by the Nintendo Wii in sales. According to independent tracker Video Game Chartz, the Wii just passed the 360 this week.

Good for them.  I love my Wii.  I think the last time I was impressed with a gaming system may have been the NES or Colecovision.  Well built, simple to use, fun.  Well done, Nintendo.  Well done.

[tommy]

I agree, well done. Hopefully next console year we can have the same sort of controls along with the option for a normal controller, and XBOX360 type graphics or better.

[Sir Auros]

Man, talk about a sad, fanboy bitchfest. 

I'll throw in my two cents and say that the Wii and the 360/PS3 are not even competing for the same demographics, and really are not in competition. Gamers are going to mostly choose 360 or PS3 and then pick up a Wii in addition. Non-gamers are the people that Nintendo is tapping into with the Wii, and this is not a good thing for the industry IMO. Casual games do nothing to promote games as an artistic medium and I think that reintroducing the concept that games are simplistic diversions suitable for all ages is only going to be harmful in the face of the ridiculous anti-videogame legislation coming out every month.

Also, seriously, if you enjoy X-Play, then you have no credibility as a gamer. Trade in your consoles to the nearest EB and spend your time doing something you would enjoy more. Like huffing paint, or reading tmz.com

[genesim]

I think systems have been generally underprogrammed.

There are so many that want faster and faster processors without looking at the fact that the vast majority of games aren't truly taking advantage of the technology....hense Donkey Kong Country late in the SNES history.

Wii is proving one thing..it is about the games FIRST.    I loved NEO GEO MVS and I don't care if it isn't all the bells and whistles of the later systems under the hood.   

The fighting games were more fun to play and even with SVC Chaos, there was still more promise.   

Programmers are lazy like the shot clock in the NBA slowing down game play.   Once they know the limit then they don't care to streamline they will just run out the clock(space) because they know that it is there.    So many systems had years left in their career but died based on software not hardware limitations.   

Meanwhile fanboy is all the more ready to buy the next system and the next and the next.

Hell that is why I am still stuck on the Dreamcast.  I still hate how Sega chickened out before they were fully realized.    A war means you have to take chances..not whore yourself out to every other system and let them reap the benefits of your proven sellers.

[tommy]

The Wii is so great because Nintendo decided to not just make the same old console the way everyone was making their console. Nintendo trying to take gaming in a new direction and expanding on the already fun and great way we all play games and adding new and exciting controls is revolutionary. Nintendo always seems to come up with new ways to enjoy games better than any other company could ever do, either because some console makers are too afraid to change what already works or can't come up with new ideas.

I can't understand how anyone can not like a company who is always trying to make things better for us and who trys to make our time more enjoyable than the rest or the pack, and actually succeeding.

I guess i am a fanboy, a fanboy of any console maker who sets out to make things better and more fun than the other guy. And the numbers don't lie, a hardly better console than the GC that is a better playing experience is exactly what people wanted.

Man, talk about a sad, fanboy bitchfest. 

I'll throw in my two cents and say that the Wii and the 360/PS3 are not even competing for the same demographics, and really are not in competition. Gamers are going to mostly choose 360 or PS3 and then pick up a Wii in addition. Non-gamers are the people that Nintendo is tapping into with the Wii, and this is not a good thing for the industry IMO. Casual games do nothing to promote games as an artistic medium and I think that reintroducing the concept that games are simplistic diversions suitable for all ages is only going to be harmful in the face of the ridiculous anti-videogame legislation coming out every month.

Also, seriously, if you enjoy X-Play, then you have no credibility as a gamer. Trade in your consoles to the nearest EB and spend your time doing something you would enjoy more. Like huffing paint, or reading tmz.com

[genesim]

Preach on brother Tommy.

Many of us haven't caught up with even last genration let alone being ready to trade in their system for yet another upgrade.

Who the hell wants another computer that needs to be switched out every 6 months to compete with the new software.

The new controller was a gamble....and a gamble that has paid off.   

[ahofle]

For me, the Wii represents the first console in a very long time who's gaming experience could not be equaled or bettered (for the most part) on a PC, which is why I bought one.  It's also the first gaming system I've ever seen that you can break out at a party and everyone -- I mean EVERYONE -- plays it including the women.  That's probably one of the reasons they are sold out everywhere.  At LEAST 5 people I know that had never played a Wii before and played Wii Sports at my house went out and immediately bought one for their family.  That's also how I decided to buy one (played at a friend's house).

[SNAAKE]

That's also how I decided to buy one (played at a friend's house).

me too. the wiimote looked stupid and I didnt think about buying a wii until I actually played at a friends house.

4 people + wii sports on 50" plasma = MADNESS !!

[shmokes]

Y'all think these are fanboy raving lunacies.  They're not.  I may turn out to be wrong in regards to some of my criticisms of the Wii.  I may turn out to be wrong about one or both of Wii's competitors catching up and eclipsing its sales in a couple years.  But it has nothing to do with fanboyism.  I've never even put my hands on a PS3 controller and I've played probably a grand total of 5 minutes of Xbox 360.  I have owned every Nintendo system ever made -- I still have never owned a PS2.  Nintendo is my favorite videogame company.  I own a Wii and have had hours and hours of fun with it.  But in spite of it's good qualities, it DOES have glaring downsides.  I find it comical how many people have referred to me as a fanboy as they sit there refusing to believe that their company of choice could possibly have delivered anything but utter perfection in every possible way.

[northerngames]

it's good to see nintendo hanging in there I almost thought they would end up like sega but the wii is going to save them from becoming extinct.

I could see why it is doing better even know it may not be as good but it is affordable and down to earth pricing and something parents would play along with there kids. 

[TOK]

The Wii is so great because Nintendo decided to not just make the same old console the way everyone was making their console. Nintendo trying to take gaming in a new direction and expanding on the already fun and great way we all play games and adding new and exciting controls is revolutionary. Nintendo always seems to come up with new ways to enjoy games better than any other company could ever do, either because some console makers are too afraid to change what already works or can't come up with new ideas.

I can't understand how anyone can not like a company who is always trying to make things better for us and who trys to make our time more enjoyable than the rest or the pack, and actually succeeding.

I guess i am a fanboy, a fanboy of any console maker who sets out to make things better and more fun than the other guy. And the numbers don't lie, a hardly better console than the GC that is a better playing experience is exactly what people wanted.

Nintendo didn't make an old console the way others were, they actually took an old console and grafted on a fancy new controller.

I'll confess to being kind of old school, but I now have the distinction of being a new and underwhelmed Wii owner by proxy since my wife bought it for my daughter. They're having fun with it, but it would have been nice if Nintendo tried just a LITTLE bit to up the ante in the graphics department.
When I played the Wii sports golf, I thought how cool it would be if the people and courses didn't look like, well, Lego people or whatever the hell they're trying to represent. I discovered there is a more serious golf game (Tiger Woods) but in trying to look realistic, it really shows outdated processing/graphics power of the Wii.

I'm going to give Resident Evil a shot because of the fantastic review, and probably the new Metroid also, but I think this is going to be a dust collector once my wife and daughter get tired of jumping around an laughing at Wii Sports boxing.

[ahofle]

but it would have been nice if Nintendo tried just a LITTLE bit to up the ante in the graphics department.
When I played the Wii sports golf, I thought how cool it would be if the people and courses didn't look like, well, Lego people or whatever the hell they're trying to represent. I discovered there is a more serious golf game (Tiger Woods) but in trying to look realistic, it really shows outdated processing/graphics power of the Wii.

I wouldn't expect someone with an Asteroids cabinet in their avatar to care so much about graphics.   Honestly, who gives a crap about better graphics if it's just going to be the same old game.  Might as well just play PC games (where I've been playing in "HD" since around 1997).

[TOK]

but it would have been nice if Nintendo tried just a LITTLE bit to up the ante in the graphics department.
When I played the Wii sports golf, I thought how cool it would be if the people and courses didn't look like, well, Lego people or whatever the hell they're trying to represent. I discovered there is a more serious golf game (Tiger Woods) but in trying to look realistic, it really shows outdated processing/graphics power of the Wii.

I wouldn't expect someone with an Asteroids cabinet in their avatar to care so much about graphics.   Honestly, who gives a crap about better graphics if it's just going to be the same old game.  Might as well just play PC games (where I've been playing in "HD" since around 1997).

Ouch. Thats actually a very good point!

I'm not a graphics hound, but in the context of the market, Nintendo dropped the ball. When I was playing the arcade games, they had WAY better graphics than their versions on my Colecovision, so in a way, they still have a cutting edge to them when you consider their time.

[shardian]

Ouch. Thats actually a very good point!

I'm not a graphics hound, but in the context of the market, Nintendo dropped the ball. When I was playing the arcade games, they had WAY better graphics than their versions on my Colecovision, so in a way, they still have a cutting edge to them when you consider their time.

IMO, Nintendo didn't even come close to dropping the ball. In fact, what they did was a brilliant business move. They probably shaved $200 off of the price tag by not going HD. That made the Wii moderately affordable to everyone, and compared to the 360 and the PS3, it is a steal. Nintendo finally "Got it" by realizing that MS and Sony had a eye candy market cornered so they concentrated on innovative gameplay for the masses.

I agree with others in this thread that when I first saw the Wii, I thought "what a POS! It has a frikking remote as a game controller. How can that possibly be fun?"

[shmokes]

But they didn't have to completely ignore graphics.  Graphics are important.  They increase immersion and suspension of disbelief, and graphics affect gameplay.  The two are not independent.  I think Nintendo could have easily delivered a system with the same innovative gameplay for the masses that wasn't totally crippled in terms of processing power.  Why would the system have to cost $450 in order to deliver HD?  Xbox 360 does it and it only costs $299.  I'd have been MUCH happier with the Wii if it cost $50 more, but for those $50 I got visuals on par with Xbox 360 and surround sound.

[MrMojoZ]

The xbox has been out over two years and it's had basically one stellar game released (GOW) and oh gosh, suprise, it's a fps!  Exciting environments, nah, just your typical muddy, generic , ww2 style battle-zones. 

GoW is third person, not first. And from your comment about the enviroments I can tell you never played the game. Your comments on Bioshock are just hilarious. I'm not gonna comment on Wii games since I don't play them. Why are you commenting on stuff you don't know and/or like?

[Sir Auros]

Yeah, that guy was really talking out of his ass, but I'm not really surprised by that or the people here who don't see the big picture with the Wii. I mean, this place isn't exactly on top of the console world.

[SavannahLion]

Xbox 360 does it and it only costs $299. 

I believe Microsoft manages that price point at a loss, then makes up the difference in game licensing.

[Sir Auros]

Xbox 360 does it and it only costs $299.

I believe Microsoft manages that price point at a loss, then makes up the difference in game licensing.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong. I recall reading (only a few months after the 360's release) that the price for components was lower than what MS was selling it for and that they weren't selling the 360 at a loss like the original Xbox.

As for the people giving the Wii a free pass for "innovation," are you playing the games that come out on the system? It's a bunch of PS2 quality graphics with half-assed waggle controls. Yeah, it's fun to break out some of the minigames at parties, but none of the non-minigame compilations have been "innovated" by the motion controls. The Wii is remarkable only because it has a bunch of non-gamers buying it for the same reasons the ipod had non-techie people buying mp3 players. It broadens the market (somewhat) and it's popular, but that doesn't mean it's the best out there or even that it lives up to the hype.

It seems to me like people in this thread are equating popularity with quality, and that's just asinine. Not as asinine as saying "good graphics = bad gameplay" and sticking your head in the sand, but it's asinine nonetheless.

I'm not saying the Wii doesn't have a market, but it's not in competition for anywhere near the same demographic as the other two platforms and it's not a big deal for MS or Sony that the Wii is outselling them, because it's priced such that people who want it and a modern system can afford both.

[AtomSmasher]

Xbox 360 does it and it only costs $299.

I believe Microsoft manages that price point at a loss, then makes up the difference in game licensing.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong. I recall reading (only a few months after the 360's release) that the price for components was lower than what MS was selling it for and that they weren't selling the 360 at a loss like the original Xbox.

As for the people giving the Wii a free pass for "innovation," are you playing the games that come out on the system? It's a bunch of PS2 quality graphics with half-assed waggle controls. Yeah, it's fun to break out some of the minigames at parties, but none of the non-minigame compilations have been "innovated" by the motion controls. The Wii is remarkable only because it has a bunch of non-gamers buying it for the same reasons the ipod had non-techie people buying mp3 players. It broadens the market (somewhat) and it's popular, but that doesn't mean it's the best out there or even that it lives up to the hype.

It seems to me like people in this thread are equating popularity with quality, and that's just asinine. Not as asinine as saying "good graphics = bad gameplay" and sticking your head in the sand, but it's asinine nonetheless.

I'm not saying the Wii doesn't have a market, but it's not in competition for anywhere near the same demographic as the other two platforms and it's not a big deal for MS or Sony that the Wii is outselling them, because it's priced such that people who want it and a modern system can afford both.

I remember reading the exact opposite about Microsoft taking a loss a with each console.   

And yes the Wii controls are innovative.  Wii sports would be an absolutely horrible game if it wasn't for the controller, and even the game Resident Evil 4 controls a lot better because of the controller, although the superior controls in the game make it too easy now.

I agree that theres not a lot of good non-mini game type games that really take advantage of the controller, but the DS was exactly the same way for the first year and look at it now.  Just wait a few months for some of the big name games to come out that were designed from the ground up with this controller in mind, and then decide if it really is just a "half-assed waggle control"

[Sir Auros]

Dude, a lot of those games are supposedly coming out now, and they're not impressive. The Wii is firmly in the casual gamer camp except for some 1st party Nintendo nerd games, which will be what I play on mine, since there is really nothing coming out that interests me. With the demographic Nintendo is shooting for, do you really think third parties are going to expand beyond casual games?

When I said the controls weren't innovative, I mean a large number of the games that "take advantage" of them are really poorly designed. So far, Nintendo is the only company with a decent grip on using the controls effectively. I can buy that will change with time, but third parties have been ridiculously sloppy so far. I remember when the Nintendo Seal of Quality meant something. Also, so many of the controls just feel like I'm doing the same thing I'd do by pressing a button, but I'm swinging my arm around instead. That's innovation?

I'm not arguing that it's not going to be a successful system, but I am annoyed at the morons poo-pooing the current generation of systems because they think the Wii is the messiah.

[AtomSmasher]

I agree with being annoyed at Nintendo fanboys, but your comments about the controls are pretty much exactly what people said when the DS came out.  Thats the problem with unique/new controls, it takes time for the developers to learn how to properly use them.  So I guess if you're only looking at currently released games, then you are correct, the controls are not innovative.  However, I bet that a year or so from now, after developers have really learned how to utilize the unique controls, you will agree that it is an innovative system.  I guess it's whether judge the system from the reality of today's games or the potential of tommorrow's (hmm, I think I'm getting too existential for my tastes).

And just so we're clear, I am anything but a Nintendo fanboy.  Earlier in this thread I defended Bioshock as a great game, and prior to the Wii, my last non-handheld Nintendo console was the original NES.

[Sir Auros]

Oh, I don't think you are. Now, the moron who actually compared Bioshock to Hexen...

I see what you're saying about the DS, but really how innovative were its controls? Many of the best games on the system take minimal advantage of the touchscreen, or if they do, it's often just a substitute for additional buttons. You have the people that graphics aren't innovative, I guess I fall in the camp that says alternate control schemes aren't, either.

[SavannahLion]

Xbox 360 does it and it only costs $299.

I believe Microsoft manages that price point at a loss, then makes up the difference in game licensing.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong. I recall reading (only a few months after the 360's release) that the price for components was lower than what MS was selling it for and that they weren't selling the 360 at a loss like the original Xbox.

Gamasutra is only one of many websites that back up my original statement. I searched for a website to corroborate your statement and haven't found one.

Microsoft has an iron tough licensing agreement. Ever notice the high prices of wireless 360 controllers? Accessories is one area they're getting their money back. Games are another. You really can't call yourself an avid gamer and use the excuse that PS3 and 360 games are consistently $10 higher than the Wii's because of production and development costs. If you can swallow that line, I've got a bridge in Minnesota up for sale, cheap.

[shmokes]

I will say, in the Wii's defense, that Nintendo has been such a ---smurfy--- performer in the market for the past ten years, that I think 3rd parties really didn't take them seriously before the consoles release.  The expectation among 3rd parties was that PS3 was going to explode on the market like an iPod (like PS1 and PS2 did) and that Xbox 360 would continue making gains, further eclipsing Nintendo, and Nintendo would continue it's path toward Sega-land.

So third parties had plans to do a few hack-job ports with half-assed "waggle" controls tacked on, but they weren't going to devote significant resources to doing a bunch of games from the ground-up that wouldn't even be suitable to port to the serious systems because of the vast difference in graphic/processing power and control scheme.  This was especially the case because nobody expected that Nintendo still had the ability to make a system that could sell.

So, the Wii really caught developers with their pants down.  EA's president has admitted as much publicly.  They didn't start seriously making games for the Wii until after it was released, and we all know that a typical development cycle is at least a year, probably closer to 18 months and sometimes far longer.

So, yeah, don't get me wrong.  The Wii will have great games for it.  But regardless of what developers do, the hardware itself has problems that will always hold it back from what it could have, and what it should have been, IMO.

[boykster]

Gamasutra is only one of many websites that back up my original statement. I searched for a website to corroborate your statement and haven't found one.

Microsoft has an iron tough licensing agreement. Ever notice the high prices of wireless 360 controllers? Accessories is one area they're getting their money back. Games are another. You really can't call yourself an avid gamer and use the excuse that PS3 and 360 games are consistently $10 higher than the Wii's because of production and development costs. If you can swallow that line, I've got a bridge in Minnesota up for sale, cheap.

I believe MS just passed the point where Xbox360's were no longer loss leaders; and it is very true that xbox games and accessories have a hefty licensing fee attached to them, pushing their prices up.

I'm in the same camp that doesn't consider the Wii and the Xbox360/PS3 to be in direct competition.  If you're looking for incredible graphics and sound - buy a PS3 or Xbox360.  If you're looking for innovative gameplay and controls - and I think the Wii's control interface, buggy or otherwise is innovative and will impact all generations of consoles to come - then buy a Wii.  If you want both, buy both!  That doesn't mean that the Wii won't have "serious" games, or that the Xbox360 won't have fun innovative games.  I don't expect, however, to see a game like Gears of War on the Wii.

As for Howards comments re: GoW and Bioshock, he's clearly never played either game.  Gears is hardly a WWII lookalike wannabe, and is third person rather than fps.  Like it, or don't like it, but base your criticisms on reality, not fantasy.  Also, Bioshock is hardly a twitch FPS "hexxen" clone.  It is actually the "spiritual" sequel to the System Shock series of PC games.  Comparing Bioshock to hexxen or doom is very loosely correct, but only in the fact that the game uses a first person perspective.  Again, I don't care if it's your type of game or not, but the game is getting GREAT reviews and has been widely accepted by PC and console gamers alike.  Remember, Bioshock is not just an xbox360 game, but is also a PC game...

[Sir Auros]

Xbox 360 does it and it only costs $299.

I believe Microsoft manages that price point at a loss, then makes up the difference in game licensing.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong. I recall reading (only a few months after the 360's release) that the price for components was lower than what MS was selling it for and that they weren't selling the 360 at a loss like the original Xbox.

Gamasutra is only one of many websites that back up my original statement. I searched for a website to corroborate your statement and haven't found one.

Microsoft has an iron tough licensing agreement. Ever notice the high prices of wireless 360 controllers? Accessories is one area they're getting their money back. Games are another. You really can't call yourself an avid gamer and use the excuse that PS3 and 360 games are consistently $10 higher than the Wii's because of production and development costs. If you can swallow that line, I've got a bridge in Minnesota up for sale, cheap.

1 - That article is from the 360 launch, back when it was selling at a loss. I had read something several months later that said it wasn't selling at a loss (at least not for the physical production). I'm sure I read it somewhere, but I'm honestly not sussed enough to go dig it up.

2 - I never brought up the $10 more argument, and I don't think it's because of increasing production costs. I don't think it's because of massively increased licensing costs, either. It's publishers grabbing at cash because they know they can.

[tommy]

Another thing to mention on sales is that all the XBOX's are turning up broken every other day and the PS3 is just too expensive and has no games to play. Wii wins.

[Sir Auros]

Oh, you mean those Xbox 360s with the free, three-year warranties? The ones that break and then are repaired for free? Those?

[boykster]

Oh, you mean those Xbox 360s with the free, three-year warranties? The ones that break and then are repaired for free? Those?

while it is great the microsoft grudgingly extended the warranty on the 360, you HAVE to admit the inconvenience of having you console die is pretty annoying.   

[Sir Auros]

It's annoying, but not nearly as annoying as having a first iteration PS2 get unreadable disc errors and be left in the cold.

[AtomSmasher]

1 - That article is from the 360 launch, back when it was selling at a loss. I had read something several months later that said it wasn't selling at a loss (at least not for the physical production). I'm sure I read it somewhere, but I'm honestly not sussed enough to go dig it up.

They didn't stop selling at a loss until a year after their launch, which is a bit longer then "a few months"  

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061116-8239.html

[tommy]

Oh, you mean those Xbox 360s with the free, three-year warranties? The ones that break and then are repaired for free? Those?

I don't give a a damn if they gave me two free games after they returned it, or whatever the case may be. Put out a product that will not break when people play it. Having a great return policy or giving us extra stuff for having the console crap out is not good enough. Make the damn thing right to start with.

[Sir Auros]

1 - That article is from the 360 launch, back when it was selling at a loss. I had read something several months later that said it wasn't selling at a loss (at least not for the physical production). I'm sure I read it somewhere, but I'm honestly not sussed enough to go dig it up.

They didn't stop selling at a loss until a year after their launch, which is a bit longer then "a few months" 

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061116-8239.html

Still makes me right and Lion wrong. 

Tommy, I thought you only live in Delusionalville when it came to the NFL. Even the holy Wii is having design issues. Reports are coming in now that if you leave WiiConnect24 on, it'll mess up the GPU because of where the wifi adaptor is in relation to it.

[tommy]

Talk about fanboys, this guy is a fan of getting broken new XBOX's and is defending it even.

[Sir Auros]

Whatever, you've made it quite clear to me just how intelligent you are, so anything you say is inconsequential. It is amusing to see you making a fool of yourself somewhere other than the Vick thread, good work on that.

[tommy]

Oh i see, i'm a fool for expecting a console to be made correctly and not have major problems. 

I think you have the fool title on the wrong person here.

[Sir Auros]

If I were judging just your reasoning ability, I'd be shocked that you can string together a sentence. 

EDIT - Not that I feel the need to defend myself from a wit as sharp as Tommy's (it's like a Nerf football, really), but before anyone else calls me a fanboy...I've had a Wii since launch. I waited in line for many hours, and I got my Nintendo-game-playing-device. Nintendo's E3 "announcements" and the lackluster releases and future releases for the system have me jaded overall, but I'm not an Xbox 360 fanboy because I enjoy that system more, don't see the Wii as the greatest platform since arcades, and can forgive hardware failures when I buy one of the first systems made (which are almost always risky) a generously extended warranty is involved.

[tommy]

I see you're one of those fools who likes to take posts from other threads and drag them to new threads where they have no place just to make yourself look like an even bigger idiot, i guess.

You have no defense for the XBOX's horrible flaws so just give up on the insults and stop acting like a tard already. 

[Sir Auros]

tard

Mr. Pott calling Mr. Kettle... 

[AtomSmasher]

 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[shmokes]

Really, unless you're a non-gamer - one of the grandmas who supposedly are buying Wiis left and right - I don't see how a person could honestly prefer the Wii to the 360 right now, all things considered.  PS3 I can grant because of the lack of software.  But the quantity of excellent games on 360 positively dwarfs what's available on the Wii right now.  Even if you think the Wii's controller is the best thing since sliced bread (or unsliced bread if you prefer doing it yourself), if there's nothing to play with it, it's just something sitting unused on the shelf.  I think at best you can say that you love the Wii controller and you think when all is said and done Wii will have the largest, most compelling library of excellent games.  Right now the best you can really say is, "There are, perhaps, five games worth owning on the Wii."  Now, to be perfectly fair, I would have said exactly the same about the 360 nine months after it launched.  But, to be perfectly realistic, we are now 21 months into the 360 launch and the state of their library has changed somewhat.

[tommy]

I'm not arguing the great games on the 360, i'm just saying i would not buy a console no matter how great those games are with such a high percentage of the thing becoming a brick. I also bet these great games would have called another console home if they, and we had known that the 360 was a brick waiting to happen.

[SavannahLion]

Since saint stepped in before I could post, I've had to strip out anything remotely resembling a counter-point here.

Auros, I've seen enough of your opinion posts to understand that it makes it pretty tough for anyone to really take you seriously.

Whatever, if you really think you're Wii is lacking step up to the plate. Send it to Child's Play and let someone who doesn't give a rats ass about graphics, sound or storage capacity enjoy the console.

tommy, the brick argument isn't a powerful one. Every one of the current consoles have/had problems.

[tommy]

Saint didn't step in, it was just a copied post. 

[AtomSmasher]

Saint didn't step in, it was just a copied post. 

 

The thread was degrading to name calling, so I figured it wouldn't hurt posting that.

[tommy]

Saint didn't step in, it was just a copied post. 

 

The thread was degrading to name calling, so I figured it wouldn't hurt posting that.

You're a doody head for tricking us into thinking saint posted here. 

[Sir Auros]

Auros, I've seen enough of your opinion posts to understand that it makes it pretty tough for anyone to really take you seriously.

  You may not, but I think others share my sentiments. If we're trading opinions here, I don't know that I can take you seriously after trying to slip in a ludicrously outdated article to prove your point. I wasn't zealous enough to hunt down the article I read, but I do know I read it. What's your problem, exactly? I pointed out that you were wrong, and then Tommy calls me a fanboy, I defend myself, and you start getting hostile?

Whatever, if you really think you're Wii is lacking step up to the plate. Send it to Child's Play and let someone who doesn't give a rats ass about graphics, sound or storage capacity enjoy the console.

Oh, I'll keep it around for the few Nintendo games that come out, but I'm outspoken about its mediocrity and I'm not the type to ignore Nintendo fanboys bash other systems and talk such utter BS like what Casto was saying.

Also, I'm pretty sure Child's Play only accepts new merchandise.

[tommy]

I was going to come here and post that if you cannot donate the system that you could always shove it up your.... but that would not be right either. So i won't post that message here.  Ah crap, did i post that? 

[SavannahLion]

I was going to come here and post that if you cannot donate the system that you could always shove it up your.... but that would not be right either. So i won't post that message here.  Ah crap, did i post that? 

It's small and warm, so I'm quite sure it's possible, especially if you're goat.. ah... yeah. It's probably possible.

Auros, at least I tried to back up my points then I left an opening for someone to show me an article showing otherwise.  AtomSmasher stepped up to the plate, proved me partially wrong and it was left at that. What's your excuse?

[SavannahLion]

Saint didn't step in, it was just a copied post. 

The thread was degrading to name calling, so I figured it wouldn't hurt posting that.

[Sir Auros]

Auros, at least I tried to back up my points then I left an opening for someone to show me an article showing otherwise.  AtomSmasher stepped up to the plate, proved me partially wrong and it was left at that. What's your excuse?

That I didn't need to explain myself to you?

[SavannahLion]

Auros, at least I tried to back up my points then I left an opening for someone to show me an article showing otherwise.  AtomSmasher stepped up to the plate, proved me partially wrong and it was left at that. What's your excuse?

That I didn't need to explain myself to you?

Seems you're a little confused on my point there.

[Sir Auros]

Oh, my excuse for hostility? I don't like you getting uppity because I pointed out that you were wrong, and I'm not fond of Tommy jumping into the conversation with his name-calling and half-baked thoughts.

[tommy]

Why don't you take a look back and see who began name calling. Get your facts correct before you make a point of not liking name calling and then start to name call.

[Sir Auros]

Why don't you take a look back and see who began name calling. Get your facts correct before you make a point of not liking name calling and then start to name call.

Yeah, I looked back, and you did. You seemed to think I was an Xbox fanboy because I pointed out that MS has a free 3 year warranty on the things and the Wii isn't as bulletproof as you seem to think it is.

[tommy]

I don't want to get into a childish thing here but you need to be corrected. Look back again, fanboy is not a bad name, but Delusional and fool is.

[Sir Auros]

I don't want to get into a childish thing here but you need to be corrected. Look back again, fanboy is not a bad name, but Delusional and fool is.

Whatever, dude. Fanboy is not a term I'll take sitting down, and I did throw it around first in this thread but it was in a general sense at the tone and I wasn't directing it at anyone. You used it because you somehow reasoned that I'm a fanboy (even though I have both systems) because I defend the 360 as a good system and for a great warranty.

As for delusional, you are. You think Wii's don't have malfunctions and that Mike Vick is innocent. Tell me you think the WMDs are in Iraq and we'll complete the trifecta.

[tommy]

 You think Wii's don't have malfunctions and that Mike Vick is innocent.

I never said that, and i never said that. You said that just now for some odd reason.

[Sir Auros]

  If you want to continue this, shoot off a pm instead of your mouth, and let's let this thread get back on track and off the topic of "us." I'm not going to let people like Lion accuse me of name-calling or derailing a thread again because of you.

EDIT - Seriously, no matter what the hell you have to say next, I'm not responding to it unless it has to do with the topic of the thread.

[tommy]

I don't want to be talking to you now let alone in private, who knows what you will do to me in a private area. 

[Sir Auros]

I don't want to be talking to you now let alone in private, who knows what you will do to me in a private area. 

For $20, I'll do whatever you want to your private area.

Damn, I can't resist lewd jokes.

[SavannahLion]

Oh, my excuse for hostility? I don't like you getting uppity because I pointed out that you were wrong, and I'm not fond of Tommy jumping into the conversation with his name-calling and half-baked thoughts.

Turn off your emotions there. You have a tendency to make statements, then when people call you on it, you just argue away instead of backing it up with proof. I practically threw a counter-proof into your lap and you just went on with your little, "I'm right, you're wrong," mission.

Look, this is my opinion. Counter it all you want, it won't change mine.

Nintendo is positioning itself into a niche market largely ignored by Microsoft and Sony. The competition between Sony/Microsoft and Nintendo is moot. Whatever overlap exists between S/M and N is pre-existing, ie people who are going to buy multiple consoles regardless market dominance.

Yeah, Nintendo flubbed it big time right around the time of their contract breakup with Sony. They barely scraped through with the N64. Nintendo knows their strength and they're playing off of that. What was the biggest money maker for the last eighteen years. How the ---fudgesicle--- does a spinach green ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- LCD evolve into one of the biggest cash cows the home gaming scene has ever seen? Nintendo has the one console that handed every single competitors ass (arguably including the PSP, but that's not my point here) back to them.

Nintendo learned alot with their Gameboy line and it looks like they're going to apply the bulk of their knowledge right to the GCN/Wii line.

The defencies you mentioned with the Wii exists. There's no getting around that. But Nintendo is applying a very succesful formula into a niche market largely ignored by Microsoft and Sony. Passing 360 in sales is significant for Nintendo. It may not ultimately crown them king, but they'll survive for the next go around.

As for tommy... that's between you and him.

[ChadTower]

[Sir Auros]

Oh, my excuse for hostility? I don't like you getting uppity because I pointed out that you were wrong, and I'm not fond of Tommy jumping into the conversation with his name-calling and half-baked thoughts.

Turn off your emotions there. You have a tendency to make statements, then when people call you on it, you just argue away instead of backing it up with proof. I practically threw a counter-proof into your lap and you just went on with your little, "I'm right, you're wrong," mission.

Look, this is my opinion. Counter it all you want, it won't change mine.

It wasn't a mission, if it were I would've gone out hunting for it. I just didn't feel like hunting down the article. I knew I read it, and that's enough for me. It wasn't personal, and I wasn't trying to sound nasty by it, but I didn't feel like searching through my posts at another messageboard from 2006 to find the link to the article I'd read (which, for the record, wasn't AtomSmasher's, or it at least wasn't at that site when I read it) to prove it.

I'm not arguing with your opinions on the machines, I was pointing out that fact wasn't correct and then went on with an unrelated argument about why it's irrelevant that the Wii has surpassed the 360 because they're for different markets. It's like starting a thead saying, "OMFG, teh DVD players haz outsold teh Gameboys! Nintendo am phail!" Since we have similar thoughts on the systems, it sounds to me like you read my, "I'm pretty sure you're wrong," as a cornerstone to my argument or something.

As for tommy... that's between you and him.

Not if he doesn't have $20, it's not.

[mcfreak]

What he said! F-me, go to the chat and duke it out!!!

[shmokes]

Jesus . . . what happened here?


Anyway, you just gotta stop referring to Nintendo as operating in a Niche market and not competing with MS and Sony.  A #1, it's hard to say they're operating in a niche market when they have sold more consoles than either of their competitors[/i].  Do you even know the definition of niche?  Nintendo is the current market leader.  And, make no mistake, home and portable videogame consoles is the market Nintendo operates in.  I'm talking about the mainstream, console market.  Yes, the very one in which Sony and Microsoft find themselves competing for consumers' videogame dollars. 

B #2, differentiation doesn't suddenly put them in a new market.  Progresso and Campbells are direct competitors, even if Progresso differentiates itself by offering a higher quality, if more expensive, canned soup.  The console market may be segmented to a small degree, with different consoles tending to appeal to different demographics, but it's still the same market and, frankly, it's not very strongly segmented.

Lastly, WTF is the title of this thread?  Be honest with yourself for a second . . . if it were really true that Nintendo was not competing with Sony and MS, why would anybody give a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- if Wii passed 360 in worldwide sales?  Nobody talks about Wii passing TIVOs in worldwide sales.  Nobody talks about Wii passing GPS navigating devices in worldwide sales.  Ask yourself the following question.  What quality does Microsoft have in relation to Nintendo that makes the Wii's success compared with the 360's relevant?*










*Hint: They're competitors, ROTFLMAO

[Sir Auros]

I still disagree. Mainstream gamers are going for a current-gen console (360/PS3) + a Wii, so  Nintendo is not taking existing customers from MS or Sony. The systems are outselling because Nintendo is tapping into the consumers that don't normally buy games. Yes, Nintendo's the market leader, but that doesn't mean the other two systems are in trouble or that Nintendo is better. Popularity != good product and the high sales are attributable to a sudden broadening of the market, not Nintendo stealing customers from other systems.

[SavannahLion]

I still disagree. Mainstream gamers are going for a current-gen console (360/PS3) + a Wii, so  Nintendo is not taking existing customers from MS or Sony. The systems are outselling because Nintendo is tapping into the consumers that don't normally buy games. Yes, Nintendo's the market leader, but that doesn't mean the other two systems are in trouble or that Nintendo is better. Popularity != good product and the high sales are attributable to a sudden broadening of the market, not Nintendo stealing customers from other systems.

Auros smacked it right on the nose (well, the, "Popularity != good product," might be debated. But I digress). PS3 and 360 appeal to a very different demographics than the Wii.

As for, "niche," why yes, I do. It's a position or situation suited to whatever occupies it. A quick define on Google turns up the following. I've put the definitions of interest in bold.

# a position particularly well suited to the person who occupies it; "he found his niche in the academic world"
# recess: a small concavity
# recess: an enclosure that is set back or indented
# (ecology) the status of an organism within its environment and community (affecting its survival as a species)
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

it's true a Wii technically isn't a living thing, However I believe the English language has enough play that I can still safely use, "niche," in the context I've chosen. So again, Nintendo is filling a niche largely ignored by both Microsoft and Sony and that is why the Wii is out pacing the 360. It's a big damned market to fill.

[AtomSmasher]

I still disagree. Mainstream gamers are going for a current-gen console (360/PS3) + a Wii, so  Nintendo is not taking existing customers from MS or Sony. The systems are outselling because Nintendo is tapping into the consumers that don't normally buy games. Yes, Nintendo's the market leader, but that doesn't mean the other two systems are in trouble or that Nintendo is better. Popularity != good product and the high sales are attributable to a sudden broadening of the market, not Nintendo stealing customers from other systems.

Well I can disagree with that simply because I am a mainstream gamer and if the Wii wasn't an option, then I would of bought a 360 by now.  Eventually I probably will buy one of the other systems, but with several big name 360 games getting released on the PC, a lack of quality titles on the PS3, and the fun games available on the cheaper (and in my opinion, more innovative) system, I see no reason to at the moment.  Of course I never have owned more then one current gen system at a time, and its possible I never will.

[shmokes]

No.  You're wrong.  The only definition of niche that matters is the business definition, i.e., "a distinct segment of a market".  Expanding the market is the opposite of a niche.  If the Wii was only marketed to and purchased by old people, it would be a niche product.  If it were only marketed to and purchased by young people it would be a niche product.  If, as you pointed out, it is being purchased by non-gamers in addition to traditional gamers, it's just ---smurfing--- popular.  If EVERY segment of a market is buying the product, then it is the exact polar opposite of a niche product.  You saw the lines outside Gamestops and Bestbuys and Targets all Winter.  Those weren't geriatrics and business women freezing their asses off all night to get their hands on the prize.  Those were hardcore gamers.

Your ideas about competition are simplistic and incomplete at best.  In the last generation of game consoles I owned a Gamecube and an Xbox (and a Dreamcast).  In the generation before that I owned a Nintendo 64 and a Playstation. 

Do you come to the conclusion, then, that as far as Nintendo and Microsoft were concerned they were no longer competing for me, as a customer?  Do you think that they would just call it a tie and forget about fighting over me because "Nintendo isn't taking existing customers from MS?"  No, of course not, because they aren't competing for customers except to the extent that customers provide dollars.  They're competing for my dollars, of which there is a finite supply that I continue furnishing long after I buy a game system. 

If I am a PS3 owner who also owns a Wii, and I have money to buy only one game I'm faced with a dilemma.  That money is going to go toward a console videogame, but it can only go to either Nintendo or Sony.  Even if I have money to buy 100 games, Nintendo and Sony can't both get 100 sales out of me.  They have to COMPETE directly for my videogame dollars.

[SavannahLion]

Core gamers are a unique demographic insofar that they'll wait in line and buy just about everything. And how much do you want to bank that a good portion of those people you saw waiting in line weren't keeping their consoles?

In core gamers households, multiple consoles fall short as being expected. And you know what, I still stand by my, "niche," comment. You know why? Because it's an entire segment of the market that remained largely untapped for years. It's everything outside of the 18-35 male crowd. As far as home consoles are concerned, it's niche and Wii is apparently doing a damn good job of filling it at this point.

Your ideas about competition are simplistic and incomplete at best.  In the last generation of game consoles I owned a Gamecube and an Xbox (and a Dreamcast).  In the generation before that I owned a Nintendo 64 and a Playstation.

Who cares what you owned in the past? Wanna see my console library? I've got at least two different systems of every generation starting with the 2600. Unlike many people, I kept them all. I don't throw that fact out on the table, but if you want it, it's there.

If I am a PS3 owner who also owns a Wii, and I have money to buy only one game I'm faced with a dilemma.

I'm having a little trouble finding a PS3 owner that only has the money to buy one game.

I'm sure the Wii does impact PS3 sales, but I don't see it being as competitive as you make it out to be. The impact the Wii would have on PS3 game sales is small. Far smaller than a similar impact the 360 would have. It goes right back to the target consumer. You and I both know PS3's are expensive. What are the chances of a poor PS3 owner who doesn't have the disposable income to buy the games they want, when they want? Last Sunday, my friends boyfriend went out and bought a PS3 with five or six games and a full complement of extra controllers. Here's the kicker, on a whim, he saw and purchased a Wii, four or five games and a full complement of controller sets. IMHO, he blew a shitload of money for nothing, but whatever. Point is, he has disposable income coming out the whazoo. It's not likely he would've purchased 15 PS3 games if he didn't see the Wii there.

I see the current competition somewhat similar to the Neo Geo vs Genesis/SNES era. I don't think there was anybody who really considered the Neo Geo as a competitor to Genesis or SNES. The demographics were just too far apart. There was definately some overlap between the two. I never met an Neo Geo owner who didn't own another console. Would anybody consider the Neo Geo as taking sales away from the other consoles? Sure, I'm sure there were a few "lost" sales like what you're talking about between the current generation. But people who owned a Neo Geo have too much disposable income to really go, "gee! I don't have enough money this month, which game should I get? A $200 Neo Geo cart or a $50 SNES cart?

Core gamers are picking up the Wii because it covers a different range of games. Nintendo is banking the real money on the non-core gamers. Those who aren't very likely to own two current gen consoles.

Shmokes, to put it simply, I agree with you about the end assessment of the Wii market and how ---smurfing--- HUGE it's going to be. I just don't agree with your arrival at that assessment.

[SavannahLion]

OK, can we pause here for a second. Attack my other post if you like but I want to put aside the commentary for just at least one post.

In all seriousness, does anyone have any belief that any one of the three consoles we're talking about is actually going to "fail" before the next generation? Not why, or how, or anything like that. Just that you believe console X,Y or Z is going to bomb.

[shmokes]

Who cares what you owned in the past? Wanna see my console library? I've got at least two different systems of every generation starting with the 2600. Unlike many people, I kept them all.

  Where did that come from?  LOL, I didn't point out that I owned a Gamecube and an Xbox to brag.  I was pointing out that Nintendo and Microsoft didn't stop competing for my dollars simply because I owned both systems.  This is relevant because you have suggested that the large number of people who own both a Wii and a 360 suggests that the Wii and 360 are not direct competitors.

Beyond that everything you just said is completely covered in my last post, which was perfectly clear and concise.  If you were having this discussion in a business marketing class your professor would be beside himself.  This isn't a matter of opinion.  The Wii is objectively a direct competitor to PS3 and 360 and is objectively not a niche product.  You are simply wrong.  Reread my last post.  Everything you need is there.


FWIW, no, I do not believe that any of the consoles will bomb this generation.  Both Nintendo and MS are in such strong positions that the market would have to do something REALLY strange for things to turn around so badly that their systems failed.  And Sony's got enough of a brand and a powerful enough system that people want it and will pick it up more and more as the price drops.  Tons of games are in development, since all the third parties were banking on Sony continuing to clean house.  And the market is bigger than ever (Thanks Nintendo!) so can probably support three players better than it has been able to in the past.  That's my take.

[Malenko]

I can prove that the Wii , 360 , and PS3 are competitors much easier then stated above:
They are all for sale right next to each other in Game Stop,WalMart, EB,etc


I accept the fact the Wii is out selling everything hardware wise, its surprising, but none the less a fact. However I personally dont think that the "niche" part of the market is going to give the Wii the kinds of software numbers in the long term that Nintendo wants. There isn't a single Wii game coming out that my nephews want bad enough to ask me to buy it for them for XMas/Birthday(I bought them a Wii last Xmas, along with Tony Hawk, Happy Feet, Sponge Bob,Ice age, and a few others  ; their ages 4-9)

If I bought the Wii for me, well I'd prolly snag up Metroid Prime 3 and Zelda, which is why I didnt buy the Wii for me, not enough games for me. Its been stated before that libraries change and if the Wii gets more games like the ones I want, I'll drop the cheddar on one. Right now, though, I'll stick with and enjoy my XBOX360 elite; they just released Super Puzzle Fighter II HD Remix on XBOX live and I'm happier then a pig in ship =) I can openly say that I'm more likely to buy a Wii then a PS3. Either way Im very sure that the 360 is the last console I'll ever own.

Also, Tommy... do you really think Microsoft hasn't fixed the production problem in the consoles they are making today? They cant recall all the 360s, all they can do is offer the warranty for free, and give you a free month of Live! Gold for making you wait. How can you be a Giants fan, they are far more broken then any XBOX360 will ever be..... Giants stadium should have 3 Red lights around it, and who roots for an 8-8 team who is 39-41 over the last 5 years.*









*see how lame an insult sounds online, even on backs with facts?

[shmokes]

Im very sure that the 360 is the last console I'll ever own.

That's a strange thing to say.  Surely twenty years from now the 360 is going to seem wholly inadequate and primitive compared to whatever the rest of us are playing then.  You not planning to be around for much longer?

BTW, my favorite argument so far is that they are not competitors because every person who buys a PS3 has unlimited cash reserves so he can just buy unlimited numbers of games.  The best part is that, even if this was true (of course, it's patently absurd, but I'll humor Savannah for a second), not even Bill Gates has unlimited amounts of time, and what's more, he presumably has tastes and is only going to buy the games that interest him and that he has time to play at least a little.  So, no matter how rich he is, he's probably not just going to go to the store and buy the entire libraries of PS3 and Wii as each game is released.  He's much more likely to buy games as he desires them.  The logic behind Savannah's argument is simply laughable -- as though movie studios aren't  competing for rich peoples' dollars because rich people can afford to see every movie, or that Jaguar has no competitors because a person who can buy a Jag can still afford to buy as many cars as he wants, so the jaguar hasn't precluded him from buying a car from another company.  Laughing.  My.  Ass.  Off.

[Malenko]

Im very sure that the 360 is the last console I'll ever own.

That's a strange thing to say.  Surely twenty years from now the 360 is going to seem wholly inadequate and primitive compared to whatever the rest of us are playing then.  You not planning to be around for much longer?

Its not that strange to me, Right now I'm 28 years old and I'm falling out of love with gaming pretty fast.  Twenty years from now I'll be 48 and hopefully buying a system for my kid. I have enough games and systems anyway, perhaps one day I'll own a house with a big gaming room, but for now, I'm just trying to get the house, wife optional.

[tommy]

but for now, I'm just trying to get the house, wife optional.

Do they have deals these days that when you buy a house you can pick from like 3 or 4 woman that could possibly live there with you. 

[ChadTower]

Only if the house is very, very, very expensive.

[SavannahLion]

You know what Shmokes? Whatever, you win. You've snubbed me. I admit defeat in the face of overwhelming opposition. 

I'm simply not in the mood to alienate and create enemies. Meanwhile, I've got bigger, more important, fish to fry.

[shmokes]

Yeah, sorry.  I got pretty wound up about that.  I'm still right    but jesus, shmokes, lighten up.

[Sir Auros]

You know what Shmokes? Whatever, you win. You've snubbed me. I admit defeat in the face of overwhelming opposition. 

I'm simply not in the mood to alienate and create enemies. Meanwhile, I've got bigger, more important, fish to fry.

You haven't alienated me. It sounds like I'm firmly on your side here, but I'm tired of dealing with this thread too. I'm going to play the "I know more about what's going on because I follow the industry more than most of the people in this thread" card and walk away.

[shmokes]

Its not that strange to me, Right now I'm 28 years old and I'm falling out of love with gaming pretty fast.  Twenty years from now I'll be 48 and hopefully buying a system for my kid. I have enough games and systems anyway, perhaps one day I'll own a house with a big gaming room, but for now, I'm just trying to get the house, wife optional.

Bah!  Nonsense.  I can just see you, twenty years from now, when holodeck-level experience is available and you'll say, "Just when I thought I was out . . . they pull me back in."   

Seriously, man.  Look how far videogames have come in the last 20 years.  And they're really still in their infancy.  Our physical interface with them is totally primitive.  Buttons and joysticks?  Gamepads?  Keyboard and mice?  These make for incredibly poor approximations of how we interact with our world.  The future of the videogame industry is so exciting because it has so far to go, there are so many fantastic places that it can go.  Cinema is ready to be supplanted, man.  Look at Lord of the Rings or the new King Kong.  Look at the Matrix.  If we want something to happen on-screen, no matter what it is, we make it happen, and it looks as real as if we really filmed the thing actually happening IRL.  Cinema has come a helluva long way over the past century, but it has pretty much fully matured technologically.  There's really no more really significant improvements you could make to film without actually turning it into something totally different.

But videogames, with the potential they have we are in the equivalent of the silent-film stage.  Nah . . . you ain't getting out.  You haven't even begun.  Just you wait and see what they have in store for us down the road.

[SavannahLion]

Bah!  Nonsense.  I can just see you, twenty years from now, when holodeck-level experience is available and you'll say, "Just when I thought I was out . . . they pull me back in."   

Scene: Arcade circa 1980.

Grandpa: So how d'ya like the game?
Grandson: shrugs shoulders 'Tis alright.
Grandpa: Alright?? It's a classic! It's Centipede!
Grandson: Stay cool. It's OK, gramps. It's just not something I want to play.
Grandpa: OK... what's wrong with it?
Grandson: Gramps, you've got to use... a joystick! C'mon that's just... old!
Grandpa: OK, let's try this one. Computer! Playback file 11903266-1A.

The Centipede cabinet digitally disolves and is replaced by a big screen TV accompanied by a Wii. The Arcade digitally dissolves and is replaced by a typical family room, circa 2007. Grandpa picks up Wiimote and powers up the Wii.

Grandpa: OK, try this, it doesn't have a joystick and it's fun!
Grandson: 

[Malenko]

Seriously, man.  Look how far videogames have come in the last 20 years.  And they're really still in their infancy.  Our physical interface with them is totally primitive.  Buttons and joysticks?  Gamepads?  Keyboard and mice?  These make for incredibly poor approximations of how we interact with our world.

I can see your point, but heres my best attempt at a counter. instead of virtually playing NBA Live on some sort of holodeck experience, I'd rather go outside and shoot some hoops  (get it? a halo, a hoop?)

I feel like games are becoming too complex and too taxing on time, either the time to get good at the game , or the time to finish it. I believe thats why "retro" gaming is coming back into style. There isnt a steep learning curve or a large amount of time needed to enjoy Galaga, Pac Man, Track n Field... well in TnF the hammer throw still gives me trouble over a decade later :p

Dont even get me started on the prices nowadays.....when I was a kid......

[shmokes]

Because your example only applies to sports games 

Let's see you go outside and relive Burnout or Zelda or, god help you, GTA.  Generally speaking, videogames keep you out of prison.   

[boykster]

Generally speaking, videogames keep you out of prison.   

Or if you believe some, they are an apprenticeship / training ground for the real thing 

[Samstag]

Generally speaking, videogames keep you out of prison.   

Or if you believe some, they are an apprenticeship / training ground for the real thing 

Prison rape simulator?  Is that a Japanese import?

[ChadTower]

Prison Rape Simulator HAS to be a Wii exclusive.  It's perfect for your Wii.

[shmokes]

You know what occurs to me.  I let your real life versus holodeck thing slide on sports games, but jesus, can you imagine Madden or NBA Live on a holodeck?  That would be incredible.  Sure, you can go outside and shoot some hoops, but how often do you get to, on a whim, play on a full court, with full teams, in front of 30,000 spectators?  How often do you get to play football for your favorite team in NFL stadiums?  Going out and getting some three on three with some buddies is fun, but the holodeck certainly has its appeals.  In fact, you and your five buddies could suddenly play on the same team, against five other guys in NBA street if you wanted.  Or you could still do three on three and have the rest of the team filled in by the computer.  It could be pretty fun to have Yankee stadium in your family room. 

[ahofle]

What occurs to me if holodeck technology existed is that I would be doing a lot of 1 on 3 scenarios, but probably never get around to playing sports games. 

[shmokes]

Heh . . . there is that. 

[shardian]

What occurs to me if holodeck technology existed is that I would be doing a lot of 1 on 3 scenarios, but probably never get around to playing sports games. 

I'd even do 3 on 3 as long as I was the only guy.