I have many questions about my SORCERER pin

[vintagegamer]

Can someone recommend a supplier for new speakers for a Williams 1985 SORCERER pin?

Thanks in advance,

VINTAGEGAMER

[divemaster127]

there is a guy on ebay that sells speaker upgrade kits for pins, I have thought about getting one for my t-2, i do not know anything about these but they look pretty good, if you want i can get you link
dm

[vintagegamer]

Yes that would be great, thanks!

[ChadTower]

There is nothing special about the speakers in a pin.  In fact, most of them tend to be cheap crap.  Just find another that is the same size and impedance.  It's almost guaranteed to be better than the original.

[divemaster127]

Here is a link same guy just not on ebay right now, I was hoping chad could weigh in on his opinion I have been kicking around changing out my speakers also
thanks
dm
http://www.decoratorsupply.com/pinball/

[ChadTower]

His stuff gets good reviews for the kits... premade, easy to install, good choice of speaker.  It also usually gets pointed out that you're paying a premium for the kit and that if you chose an appropriate speaker and did the installation without a kit you could get an even better speaker for the price.

So, basically, it's a good kit, but you can do better on your own for the same money.

EDIT:  A good guide on replacing pin speakers

[divemaster127]

cool thanks for the info
dm

[vintagegamer]

His stuff gets good reviews for the kits... premade, easy to install, good choice of speaker.  It also usually gets pointed out that you're paying a premium for the kit and that if you chose an appropriate speaker and did the installation without a kit you could get an even better speaker for the price.

So, basically, it's a good kit, but you can do better on your own for the same money.

EDIT:  A good guide on replacing pin speakers

Chad, do you have a certain type of speaker you personally recommend?

VINTAGEGAMER

[ChadTower]

Does Sorceror have a woofer?  I'd replace that first, backbox speakers second.  Other than that, you don't really need much for a pin that old, just a good quality basic speaker.

[rovingmind]

www.parts-express.com

This is where i get replacement speakers for everything when i need components.

[vintagegamer]

Does Sorceror have a woofer?  I'd replace that first, backbox speakers second.  Other than that, you don't really need much for a pin that old, just a good quality basic speaker.

I'm going to pick up the machine on Friday, and was told the sound doesn't work at all- another person suggested it's prob that the speakers are blown, so I thought I'd swap out the small speakers first to see if that in fact is the problem.  I have not yet gotten to see if there's a woofer yet or not.

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

www.parts-express.com

This is where i get replacement speakers for everything when i need components.

Thanks RM!

[ChadTower]

Dude, odds are very low the problem is the speakers.  Pins don't put much wear on a set of speakers, so unless they did something like poke them with sharp objects or get them wet, the speakers are likely just fine.

[divemaster127]

Chad, my t2 pin was made in 1991, I was kicking around replacing the subwoofer just due to age, 16 years old.  I was reading on some pin sites that the subwoofers are bad about cracking & coming apart after so much time.  On a side note a premium subwoofer is much cheaper than buying the kit I was looking at.
dm

[ChadTower]

Yeah, they used cheap paper cones in most pins.  I'd think he'd be getting something out of one of the three, though, and whenever someone gives a major symptom with a "it's probably just <simple item X>", usually it means it's something bigger.

Just like the "t's probably just a fuse" seller, if it really were the speakers, the seller would have reaped some cheap speakers from something else and sold it as fully working.

Upgrading the woofer on a T2 will really improve that game, IMO.  It will just sound much better.  The cost of the kit, for the most part, is for the mounting plate, which you'd probably have to make yourself buying a better speaker.

[divemaster127]

thanks again for the help Chad, im pretty new at working on pins but i'm sure enjoying it
thanks
dm

[ChadTower]

Yeah it's a blast if you're into it.  Once you work on a few pins, when you go back to a vid, the vid looks dramatically simpler in comparison.

[vintagegamer]

Dude, odds are very low the problem is the speakers.  Pins don't put much wear on a set of speakers, so unless they did something like poke them with sharp objects or get them wet, the speakers are likely just fine.

Innnnnnnnnnnnnn-teresting..  so do you think maybe it's the speech/sound boards?  The guy said when you turn up the volume you can hear some hiss, but no other sounds.  I also read that there's some type of diagnostic button you can hit on the main board that provides some beeps you should hear.  I can't wait to get it home to start troubleshooting.

[ChadTower]

Without more info, it could be any of a hundred things.  I'm just basing my logic on the fact that if the problem were so simple to fix he'd have done it.  That's the assumption one has to make with games, no 5 minute fix in a major function goes unfixed when trying to sell a game.

[vintagegamer]

That's a fair statement- however I don't think he's a regular seller of games, and I think was just looking to make some money in the flipping of this unit.

I will share more details when I get it back to the house Friday night.

[ClubNinja]

I also highly doubt this is a speaker issue.  There is in fact a test button on the sound board, and you should definitely start there when you have the game in your possession.

Aside: Sorcerer is awesome and kicks ---my bottom--- all the time.  I love it.

[vintagegamer]

Many thanks for the input, CN-  I think I remember playing the game as a kid somewhere..   Do you own a Sorcerer pin?

VINTAGEGAMER

[ClubNinja]

Do you own a Sorcerer pin?

Yup.

[vintagegamer]

SWEET!  Did your Sorcerer pin need anything when you got it?  Is it OK if I ask some more questions when I get mine home?

[divemaster127]

Boy you have some nice pins, what all do you have, I only have a T-2, I would love a lord of the rings, TZ, Adams, or magic pinball at some point
dm

[vintagegamer]

OK folks, I got my SORCERER pin home!  It's now time for me to ask those folks here who are chock full of wisdom for assistance.  Before I post my questions, I will state the following details:  game powers up, I've downloaded the manual for the pin, and the game appears to power up in "game over" mode.  I have also changed out the 3 'AA' batteries in the CPU board.  The 3 buttons inside the coin door, advance, auto/manual, and high score reset are all functional.

1. no sound present- when I turn the volume switch from left to right that is inside the unit under the playfield, I can hear a "hiss"- I tried pushing the sound check switch on the CPU board and heard nothing.

2. I don't know how to get the game to start "playing"-  the coin doors/slots are present, but no internal guts seem to be there.  I tried reading through the manual and set the number of required credits in that specific function to 0, but upon pushing the credit button nothing kicks off.  I know the credit button works b/c I needed it to update the function settings and it made changes w/no problems.  However, in one of the "test" functions, the balls launched and the flippers are functional.  So, I think it's just a case of me not knowing what to set properly.

Any help or steps in the right direction would be greatly appreciated.  I can provide pics as needed and will answer any questions as best as I can.  Please help me save another one 

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

Trying to figure out how to set my SORCERER pin to free play- in the manual it shows function #23, and the factory setting is "01", which I'm assuming is for 1 coin..  Is this what needs to be changed to set the game to free play?  Or is there something else?  The manual I have doesn't point this setting out.

Thanks,

VINTAGEGAMER

[Guaranos]

I'm not sure if Sorcerer in particular can be set to free play, but I know a lot of machines from the 80's on up can.  Maybe you could change that setting to "00" and see what happens.

[Guaranos]

1.  Your sound board could be bad, disconnected, or missing.  I'd turn off the machine and check the wiring/boards in the back box (up where the back glass is).  Make sure you see something that meets the description of the sound board.  Be careful playing around back there with the power on, as pinball machines can use some higher voltages that can hurt a little.  I know mine uses around 200v for the displays, and it doesn't tickle when you accidentally touch one.

2.  Are the coin mechs present inside the coin door?  Either way, if you look down near the bottom of the inside of the coin door, are there wires running to it?  If so, there are probably some little slots down there with a switch with a little piece of metal sticking out of it (usually looks like a thin paperclip bent into an L-shape).  Try flicking that down a couple of times to register some credits.  Then hit the credit button on the front of the machine.

[vintagegamer]

Thanks for your responses G- I've been doing some research online, and the sound board IS actually there, and the wires are hooked up.  So, I'm wondering if it's maybe just shot.  I can hear faint hiss in the speakers when I turn up the volume, and it doesn't sound like there are any weird hums or anything, so I'm thinking it might just need a new sound board.  Another member mentioned they'd be surprised if it was the speakers, so I'll prob try replacing the sound board first.  Since the game's over 20 yrs old, I know those parts tend to break down.

As for the coin door, I will snap a pic so you and everyone can see what the machine has-  to answer your ?s, there are wires running into the door, but I don't see anything in there that the coin would hit going in.  More info soon-


VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

Here is the inside of the coin door-  I don't see any paper-clip type thingys except the 1 small piece standing vertically in the upper left corner.  There are plastic L-shaped parts which appear to allow you to get your change back out, but don't see anything that tells the game the credit when in-  Please take a look and let me know what you all think.

[SirPeale]

The switches for your coin door are near the bottom.  They kind of stick out.  You see the microswitch with the wires coming from the bottom?  Trip the rotating wire actuator, that'll trigger credits.  IF it's working, of course.

[Guaranos]

I've circled the coin switch in green.  Tap the little L-shaped wire sticking out of it for credits.

[ChadTower]

The coin mech on the right is mostly the same, but in the beige housing, so the switch is enclosed.  It would have a button on top you could press but that button appears to be broken off where the slot is in the housing.

[ChadTower]

He's probably right, that works on a lot of them. 

[vintagegamer]

Thanks guys!  I'll check this out ASAP and provide an update.

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

OK...  I did what you guys recommended and...............................


IT WORKS!!!!!    I'm so psyched!  Even the wife played!  NOW- what do I need to put in the door to make the quarters hit that actuator?  I assume I'm missing some pieces.

There was also something sitting inside on the playfield, so I'm thinking this machine had a broken playfield glass or something.   The prior owner said they had it for about 5 yrs and it just sat.  The graphics in the playfield appear somewhat cracked, and 1 or 2 of the balls have a little bit of surface rust on them- so it definitely looks like it sat w/those parts exposed for some time.  Nonetheless, I love it!

And now onto the sound issue-  I'm going to get a new(er) speech board first and go from there.  Stay tuned!

[vintagegamer]

The SORCERER pin I bought has the back glass, but it wasn't in the machine at the time of purchase.  I want to put it in now, but the seller advised that he thought there was some type of track-like base that went on the bottom of the glass before it went into the machine.

Does anyone happen to know if that's true?  And if so, where I can I buy/order one?

Thanks!

VINTAGEGAMER

[Ken Layton]

On Williams pinballs of this vintage, I believe you set the "Maximum Credits" function to "00" to enable free play of the machine. However, there's a downside to this: you can not win any free games by either scores, high scores, specials, or match numbers. Starting with Williams "High Speed" they included a free play mode in the game software.

[Ken Layton]

If the balls have rust on them don't use them as they'll chew up the playfield. Buy new ones at Marco Specialties along with some Novus #2 polish to clean the playfield.

[ChadTower]

Those things are major gameplay elements... I wouldn't take them away.  I'd wire an easy access button just inside the coin door or just inside the bottom instead.

[vintagegamer]

I had set it to 00 and it didn't seem to make any diff so I'm going to put it back to 01- if I can get whatever I need for the coins to go in correctly and activate the game, I have no issues putting quarters in..  It's nostalgic!

[vintagegamer]

Thanks Ken- what size balls does this game take, do you happen to know?

[Kevin Mullins]

Are you familiar with getting into the different test modes and settings modes ??
(if not, we can try to explain)

If you set Function 18 to Zero = Freeplay.

[vintagegamer]

Thanks for the info, Kevin-  I was actually trying some of those function changes last night.  I looked on the function table and 23 was the closest one I could find relating to the free play (# of credits).

I'll go back and check #18 on the list again- many thanks!

[USSEnterprise]

I'm pretty sure most machines use 1 1/16 " balls

[modessitt]

I'd be interested in knowing where you got the game and if you're located in the same area.  We had someone call and e-mail pics about selling a Sorcerer pinball in the last few weeks, but believe he sold it to someone else when we passed.  If you bought that one, and are local, we have the parts you need (new balls, novus, rubbers, bulbs, etc...).  We can probably test your sound board for you, as well....

[modessitt]

Does it have a piece of plastic/metal along the bottom of the glass with a lip sticking out the front?  This is what's required to lift it up and out once it's in.  You CAN put it in without it, but it's difficult to get back out.  You'd have to put your hands on the glass and slide it up, then use a thin screwdriver or something to pry the bottom out.  This can be dangerous and you don't want to crack the glass.

Contact www.pbresource.com as they should have what you need, along with a lot of things you didn't know you needed....

[Kevin Mullins]

You can tell for sure if it's missing if there is about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch of artwork missing on the bottom of the backglass. (kinda scratched up area)
And this piece is usually always metal.
Ya can't really tell in the pic, but there is a small lip that sticks straight out from the glass to get a finger hold on it.

[vintagegamer]

Thanks modess, but it looks like you guys are in TX and I'm further north.

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

Thanks Kev,

Actually the seller gave me another backglass for another game with a part just like that on it, but I'll have to measure and see if it's the same size or not.  I just wanted to see how similar it was before I considered making the other one work on this.

VINTAGEGAMER

[Kevin Mullins]

Is that the piece missing from yours ?

[vintagegamer]

Yep..

[vintagegamer]

Is there anything I can/should lubricate on my newly acquired Sorcerer pin to keep her top notch?  Any suggestions from fellow pin owners would be greatly appreciated- I already have the one note about waxing the playfield w/Novus #2..

Thanks!

VINTAGEGAMER

[Kevin Mullins]

You might want to think about putting some Krylon Triple Thick or something similar at least on that bottom edge of the artwork before trying to put a new bracket on. This might prevent it from damaging the artwork. The edges tend to be most vulnerable to flaking/peeling.

[Kevin Mullins]

Clean.... clean.... clean....and then clean some more. 

Change the three AA batteries .... ASAP.

Replace any balls that even remotely look like they have a pit on them.

I would check each individual circuit board for bad solder joints around all the wiring header pins and any others that you may find on other electronics components in the headbox.

[vintagegamer]

I have that base channel piece ready to put on the bottom of my back glass, and was wondering if I could/should put anything in the channel to protect the base of the back glass?  Someone mentioned some type of 3M product but I'm not really savvy with that kind of stuff so I'm asking if folks could provide me with some more layman-type suggestions

I was thinking of maybe lining the bottom of the channel with some type of silicone or something that wouldn't really harden?

Thanks in advance,

VINTAGEGAMER

[SirPeale]

I've merged a couple topics of yours.  Would you please try and keep similar topics to one thread?  I'd appreciate it. 

[vintagegamer]

Sorry!  Just excited about the pin and my mind's all over the place- that's what these old games do to you 

What is the Krylon Triple Thick stuff?  Sounds like a condom carried by hookers.


VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

I made sure I changed out the 3 AA batteries, and I have to wait for the playfield polish to come in the mail (unless someone knows of a local place where you can buy the stuff).

But as for any of the components in the coin doors, mechs, etc, does anything have to be oiled or WD-40'd?  I definitely want this thing to last as long as possible w/o needing repairs.

In other news, I noticed yesterday that there was a piece of black rubber on the playfield that I knew didn't belong there, and saved it b/c I was sure I'd find out eventually what it came off of- well today I noticed that 2 of the rubber gaskets around the score panels were missing, and VOILA- they were identical to the piece of "mystery rubber".  I also found another one inside of the pin cabinet, so I took both of them today and epoxied them back in place..  we'll see how quick they fall off now!

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

Is Pledge or Murphy's Oil safe for old pin side arts?  Since it's wood, I'm trying not to use any other household cleaners that will tear them up.

Thanks!

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

I know there's gotta be folks out there like me who HATE having to wait for parts to come in the mail, if there is a reasonable facsimile at a local store..

I need to know if there is an equivalent auto bulb or related to replace some of the burnt out bulbs in my Sorcerer back panel- they look like they could have a "relative" in the car light bulb market somewhere, and wondered if anyone had already done a search.

Thanks in advance,

VINTAGEGAMER

[SirPeale]

The most widely used bulbs are 555 and 44 bulbs.  Buy them in boxes, they're far cheaper that way.

[modessitt]

Pledge would be okay.  Windex is also okay, if you don't go overboard and soak the thing.  Be careful if there is any flaking, as rubbing it will cause more paint to flake off....

[modessitt]

It's a paint - clear coating - found wherever Krylon paint is sold - like Wal-Mart I think....

[modessitt]

Novus can be bought in many places, some locally....

Novus comes in 3 main types - #1, #2, and #3.  #2 is the one you want to use.

You can by a small-bottle pack of all 3 at The Container Store if you have one local.

Also, the larger bottles sell for about $8 and are usually found at automotive performance parts shops.  Motorheads use it to polish the inside of engine cylinders.  Whenever I need on fast, I run to a local performance shop and pick one up off the shelf.

**NOTE**  Performance shops do not mean AutoZone's, NAPA parts, etc...  Performance shops are places you would buy custom cold-air intakes, mufflers, etc to supe up your car.  Look in the yellow pages and call them to see if they sell Novus....

[ChadTower]

I would keep him away from the backglass as much as possible until he knows more.  You can't un-coat a badly done backglass.  Learn more first, then tackle the touchy jobs.

[Ken Layton]

Most pinball lamps are these 6 volt types:

#44 or #47 bayonet base (available at Radio Shack, but quality is poor)

#555 wedge base (you can sub #159 or #259 from Radio Shack)

Most pinball 'special effects' lamps are the common automotive #89 bayonet base lamps.

Buying locally at Radio Shack or auto parts store is expensive. Just order several boxes of 10 at pinballlife.com

[USSEnterprise]

Honestly, I was taught by a previous employer to use brillo pads and windex. Actually works really well, as long as you don't scrub too hard. The paint doesn't come off (unless you scrub too hard)

[vintagegamer]

I'm pretty sure most machines use 1 1/16 " balls

Thanks all for your input- I actually measured the ball diameter from just above the playfield glass, and after checking repeatedly it's looking like it's only 7/8".  I also checked the manual I have for the game, and it shows every blasted part # for everything but the pinball.

I'm thinking that's the right size for the machine b/c the channels where the ball runs look around that size, as well as the little spot where the ball sits upon waiting its turn before being set up in front of the launcher.  Any other way to confirm?  I know there are a few other Sorcerer owners here.

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

Wow really?  Sounds like a step away from using a D.A. (sander)!

[modessitt]

How about this?  Sorcerer uses "standard-sized pinballs."  Go to any pinball parts supplier and tell them you need some "standard-sized pinballs" and you will get the right kind.   It's not like you have a Hyperball or Hercules here.....

[psik0tik]

Judging by the pic the coin mechs aren't even there.

[vintagegamer]

How about this?  Sorcerer uses "standard-sized pinballs."  Go to any pinball parts supplier and tell them you need some "standard-sized pinballs" and you will get the right kind.   It's not like you have a Hyperball or Hercules here.....

The thing I keep thinking about is, the guy had alot of older pins lying around, and when doing some reading last night I noticed one supplier had 3/4" balls which were used for some older pin games-  I'm wondering if this game was missing the balls, and the dude just popped 2 in that he had available.  I'm guessing that if the 1 1/16" are bigger than the originals should be, they'd just get hung up somewhere, right?

VINTAGEGAMER

[ChadTower]

Honestly, I was taught by a previous employer to use brillo pads and windex. Actually works really well, as long as you don't scrub too hard. The paint doesn't come off (unless you scrub too hard)

That former employer wasn't exactly known for caring about what the customer ended up with.

[Ken Layton]

Dish soap mixed with hot water. Dip a sponge into the solution and wring it out. Now use the sponge to go over the outside of the cabinet. That's good for cleaning the artwork safely. Now that it's clean you can go over it with Pledge or whatever wax.

[vintagegamer]

I have a list of items to pick up for my SORCERER pin, and would like to give any vendors affiliated with arcadecontrols.com my business first.  Are there any who work directly with this site?  And also, are there any discounts affiliated with being a member here?  I intend to place the order today.

Thanks!

VINTAGEGAMER

[ChadTower]

Don't know of any affliliated, but pinballlife.com is head and shoulders above the rest in my experience.  Price, service, etc.  All stellar.

[vintagegamer]

Thanks Chad- I think Ken recommended them as well.  I'll wait a little longer before pulling the trigger to see if anyone else chimes in.

[clanggedin]

I use a magic eraser.

[vintagegamer]

Order has been placed 

Replacement speech board/card is on the way as well- I'm really hoping that's all that's causing the problem.  Judging from the overall condition of the machine and that everything else is working, I'm feeling confident that's probably the issue.

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

Sorry for all of the questions, but man I keep running into alot of oddities here..   On my Sorcerer pin, there are (or were) black rubbers around the flippers at the bottom.  Also, in the pic at the below link, the rubbers are also black:

http://www.pinballrebel.com/game/pins/sorcerer/sorcerer_pinball.htm

However, in the manual I downloaded, it shows those bumpers should actually be RED, with part #23-6519-4.  So, where does the discrepancy lie?  Were some models possibly made with red, and then they switched over to black at some point? 

I think I'm starting to see why only 3700 of these were made..  People couldn't make up their minds! 

[ChadTower]

Personal preference, they are the same except for color.

[vintagegamer]

AHA!  Red!

[vintagegamer]

OK I have a new speech card on the way, but I noticed that the speech card only has 4 Eproms on it, where the game uses a total of 7 to make all the effects work:

Game U19 L-1
Game U20 L-1
Sound U49 L-1
Speech U4 L-1
Speech U5 L-1
Speech U6 L-1
Speech U7 L-1

If in fact the speech card was shot, wouldn't I still hear the other sounds?  Again all I hear is a hiss in my pin when turning up the volume..  Or, is it that the speech data also triggers the other back-end sounds and effects?  I'm just trying to understand how it all works.  Thanks!

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

I actually thought maybe applying packing tape along the bottom would help protect the decal- it's already got some flaking to it, so I was thinking this would both keep it on AND protect it from the base channel I need to put on it.  Maybe just a thin line of it along the bottom of the glass?

VINTAGEGAMER

[Q*Bert_OP]

Personal preference, they are the same except for color.

Black is usually 60 durometer, red is 45...black has a shorter life and is much stiffer, less bouncy, but shows little dirt build-up...red gets dirty very quickly...

[ChadTower]

Home use.  This isn't a route machine anymore.

[Kevin Mullins]

Had you run the sound test yet?
It should cycle through ALL the available sounds and such one at a time.

It's been awhile since I've played with a Williams sound board, but I "think" it should still play the sounds from the roms that are present even if the others are sounds are missing.
But then again..... these sound boards are known to have problems when they get of this age.

[vintagegamer]

Thanks again for offering your assistance, Kevin-

I pushed the button on the main CPU which I "think" is the sound diagnostic switch, and I hear nothing at all.  It also sounds like the volume switch inside works somewhat like a "balance", so I tried both that adjuster along with the one on the speech board, and get nothing but a faint hiss-  the seller said his son could get it to work from time to time by........"pulling on THIS and THIS" (grabbing wires as I stood there about ready to vomit).  So I'm HOPING that the son's efforts were simply squeezing the last few sounds out of a dying card.   We'll see once the new card arrives (hopefully by the end of this week).

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

Yeah I'm not a HUGE "all original" fan, but if the parts are readily available w/o having a deathly price ticket affixed to them, I'm game.

I ordered the red ones today from pinballlife (along with all my other needs), so I'm hoping they have a VERY efficient shipping dept 


VINTAGEGAMER

[Kevin Mullins]

Have you pulled the board and just looked at the backside for bad solder joints?

Possibly try removing and re-seating the roms and any other socketed chips.

If he could "push and pull" "this and that" to make it work....sounds like a bad connection to me.

[Kevin Mullins]

Yes...just to confirm..... RED for the flippers.

black has a shorter life and is much stiffer, less bouncy, but shows little dirt build-up...

Yeah, it doesn't show the dirt much because it's too busy "creating it".   
(another source of the "black dust" besides any metal coil sleeves)

[vintagegamer]

Have you pulled the board and just looked at the backside for bad solder joints?

I assume you're referring to pulling the speech/sound card?  Not the main CPU board?  To answer your question, no I have not done that- just checked the ribbon cable going from the card to the CPU board..

[vintagegamer]

I only located one volume mo-bob thingy on the speech card, and the volume knob thingy underneath the playfield- is there another I've missed somewhere?  [cringing in hope]

[Kevin Mullins]

All stellar.

Haha.... amazing what pops up when you're (me) racking your brain trying to remember the name of something you worked on awhile back related to the subject. (a Williams pin in this case)

STELLAR WARS !!   

I couldn't think of it for the life of me.

Anyways, sorry to interrupt...please carry on.

[GreenKnight37]

Have you checked RGP?  Usenet group - Rec.Games.Pinball ?

You can access the group via Google Groups.  They're a bit passionate and tend to have lots of flame/spam wars, but they are very helpful.

I'm sure one of them has a Sorcerer and can help you with the exact size.  If you don't have the original, full-blown, technical manual, you can get the PDF of that at IPDB.org   Your post mentioned a manual so you may have this already.  If you've got lighting/wiring info and 20+ pages, then you probably have the technical manual already.

[Kevin Mullins]

The thing I keep thinking about is, the guy had alot of older pins lying around, and when doing some reading last night I noticed one supplier had 3/4" balls which were used for some older pin games- 

Those 3/4" were used in some really oddball machines like my Hyperball.
Even though Hyperball is a Williams game close to the age of yours..... I highly doubt your pin uses them. (besides.... this one uses about 100 of them)
They are definately not the "standard" size ball.

1 1/16" would be what is considered the "standard".

[vintagegamer]

Thanks again all for the feedback and input- I ordered the 1 1/6" balls yesterday, so hoping they will be here soon.

And for whomever asked about if I had a manual for the game, I d/l'ded a 37 meg PDF that broke out to about 40 pages.  It looks to be the right one-

I greatly appreciate everyone's help w/this!

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

I will have to take a pic of the components I see, and hopefully you guys can help point me to where I need to be.  I can see the speech card, but last night upon looking I couldn't find anything else sound-related (then again, I was also half-asleep).  I will post a pic and we can go from there.

I too think it's just something stupid preventing the sound from working, I just need to find out what it is! 

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

Thanks PJ- I had looked at that ribbon cable before to see how everything linked up, but I didn't try pulling it and reseating it.  I will definitely try that out tonight.

I also updated your pic to show where the guy selling the machine was PULLING.  I don't know if they have any relation to the sound components or not (hoping NOT)..

[vintagegamer]

I really hope it's anything but needing solder..  I've learned that in life I have many gifts- and soldering ISN'T one of them.


Stay tuned...

[slycrel]

Sorry I missed this thread the other day.  I've had really good luck with the guys from http://www.actionpinball.com/.  Best of luck.

[vintagegamer]

Well I came home and disconnected the 2 cables I pointed out in the pic above, as well as the ribbon cable, and I reconnected them.  I don't have any sound as of yet, but I could swear I heard something faint when pushing the test switch button this time, like a series of faint beeps or something to that effect.  I will be trying again shortly when the wife gets home from work.

VINTAGEGAMER

[Q*Bert_OP]

Yes...just to confirm..... RED for the flippers.

black has a shorter life and is much stiffer, less bouncy, but shows little dirt build-up...

Yeah, it doesn't show the dirt much because it's too busy "creating it".   
(another source of the "black dust" besides any metal coil sleeves)

Bah...I meant that the black rubbers don't appear dirty through use

[Kevin Mullins]

Bah...I meant that the black rubbers don't appear dirty through use

Eh.... I knew what ya meant.
Just wanted to point something out that most people don't realize about the black rubber as it ages. 

[SirPeale]

Personal preference, they are the same except for color.

Black is usually 60 durometer, red is 45...black has a shorter life and is much stiffer, less bouncy, but shows little dirt build-up...red gets dirty very quickly...

In my experience, the reds self destruct quicker than blacks.  Maybe it was just a bad batch.

[vintagegamer]

Tried again last night after wife got home, removed 2 cables and replaced, removed ribbon cable and replaced, removed the upper left eprom from the speech card and noticed 1 pin was broken off- went to reseat and dropped it, and the machine basically ate it..     I powered up the machine again minus the missing eprom and no change..

So, I guess I'm waiting for the new speech card to arrive before troubleshooting any further!

[vintagegamer]

Interesting feedback from all- I'll put the red on and let you guys know if they start coming apart anytime soon..

[vintagegamer]

Thanks PJ- I figured there would be some taunts that would play while it was in "game over" mode, but didn't think to start a game.  And yep I did try wiggling the 2 wires.

The one pin on the eprom looked like it was bent prior to me pulling it- I've removed those before on my Ms Pac so that wasn't too new to me- the "new" part was doing them while it was vertical 

I'm not giving up tho, I'll keep trying diff stuff that you guys suggest, so keep the info coming!  Also, aside from the volume knob on the speech card and the one under the playfield, are there any others?

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

I went to make note of my game's S/N last night, and sadly there's not much left there to ID.  Is the game's S/N located anywhere else?  I know there's a Game ID # in one of the power up tests, but don't know if that # is the same as the machine # or not.

Thanks!

VINTAGEGAMER

[ChadTower]

Home use.  It won't.  They are built to stand more use than you'll put on it even in very heavy home use.

[Kevin Mullins]

In my experience, the reds self destruct quicker than blacks.  Maybe it was just a bad batch.

That is also very true.... they seem to be a bit softer to me, more rubber-band-ish, so I guess they deteriorate faster and then break kinda like an old rubber-band does.

[Kevin Mullins]

Dude, stop with all the threads already.  :-P

Seriously..... since you are asking questions about the same machine (which is totally cool) ... just have one thread...... and keep asking question on that thread. It will always bring it to the top of the list every time you or anyone else responds to it. But it's really hard to keep track of twenty or so threads about the same machine. Basically you could have started one thread and titled it "Williams Sorcerer Pinball Machine" and just continued to add questions and information to that ONE all inclusive thread.
 

PinballJim - refresh my memory whether the number that is "stamped" into the wood on both the headbox and the body is just the "model" or if that was also the serial ?

[vintagegamer]

Very sorry guys- it's just that I was concerned if I posted multiple questions in one thread, they wouldn't be responded to individually.  Anyway I will type more there.  Please just be sure to read my updates

[vintagegamer]

I have an update but will reply in my main Sorcerer thread..

[vintagegamer]

After taking advice from pinballjim and some others re: my sound problem, I wanted to provide an update: I actually started a game and wiggled the wires, and sadly nothing else happened.. BUT, I wanted to mention that when I disconnect the left cable completely, I can hear power cutting off from one of the speakers, and coming back on when it's reconnected.  And when I pull the right connector, I hear no current/power running at all anymore- total silence.  So, I'm hoping this helps to elude any concerns regarding broken solder or poor connections.  I'm still not hearing any sounds when hitting the "test" switch either, which is to the left of the left connector.  Is this maybe starting to elude to the possibility of blown speakers? 

I also forwarded the above details to the guy who has sold me the replacement speech card, and he provided the following update:

"The hum you hear is normal & it means the amplifier is working properly. The majority of sounds are made on the main cpu & the speech is made on the smaller board. The sound level between the sound & speech is controlled by a control on the speech board. If the speech board does not correct your problem then the problem would be on your main cpu. We can test & repair your cpu if required & take your old speech board as partial credit towards repairs. The Sorcerer sys 9 cpu boards are hard to find undamaged so repairs are your best option. Hope this info helps. Let us know when you receive your speech board & how you make out."

Please watch this thread for any other updates from me.

Thanks,

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

As for my question regarding the s/n location:

There should be several stickers on the cabinet with the serial number on them.

Please tell me WHERE-  inside the cabinet?  inside the main head panel?  underneath? 

UPDATE!  found the s/n, on the stickers PJ referred to- didn't realize they all had the same # on them.  Thanks!

 

VINTAGEGAMER

[SirPeale]

I'm gonna merge threads.  We're good about answering questions.

[Kevin Mullins]

Very sorry guys- it's just that I was concerned if I posted multiple questions in one thread, they wouldn't be responded to individually.  Anyway I will type more there.  Please just be sure to read my updates

No problem .... those that are willing to help will be more than happy to check for updates and new questions that you add to your thread. Most people on here on real good about that checking up on that sorta thing.

So ask away ...... 

[ChadTower]

Easy way to check the speakers:  attach them to something else.  They're no different from other regular speakers.

[ChadTower]

I don't see anything that says the sound worked when the seller wiggled connectors.  I do see vintage wiggling connectors to no effect.

I agree about the connector percentage, though.  It also amazes me how infrequently people bother to swap out the header/connector combo when it is demonstrably failing.  Spend a half hour, change the set, rather than have to play with it constantly for the next two years.

[vintagegamer]

Didn't he say earlier that the sound worked when the seller wiggled the connectors?

Remember, vintage, 90% of problems with pinball machines are connector related.  It's almost always a loose or dirty connector.

Yep, you're right  PJ- the seller had told me he and his son would do that, and the sound would apparently work sometimes.  In the time I have had the machine tho (about 2 wks), I have never heard any sound other than the hum).

[vintagegamer]

Easy way to check the speakers:  attach them to something else.  They're no different from other regular speakers.

I will attempt this sometime this wknd if I can.

[ChadTower]

So, at least, you should re-pin that connector, probably replacing the ---smurfy--- IDC (I assume) connector with a better one.  If you are able, replace the header pins too.

That is very common.

[ChadTower]

Logic circuit connectors don't carry significant voltage (in terms of scale) and they are very commonly huge problems.  It certainly can't hurt any to do if he gets it right.  Sometimes they just corrode but that's probably not a cause here.

It could easily be a cracked solder joint, maybe even a pulled pad, if the seller really was wiggling those connectors with any frequently.  Check those first, those are both simple fixes.

[vintagegamer]

In layman's english, you guys are basically telling me the main CPU board has to come out, right?  Keep in mind this is my first pin..

[ChadTower]

No.  Not even close, bro.  Don't touch the main CPU!

Pull the sound board, inspect the backside of the header pins for those connectors.  If the pads don't look visibly damaged, reflow the solder on them.  Then plug back in and fire it up.  If you can solder should take 10 minutes which is almost all waiting for the iron to reach temperature.  If you can't solder now is the time to learn.  It's a necessary skill for owning a pin.

[ChadTower]

Ah, I wasn't going to point him there until we could rule out the simplest cause of a cracked solder joint on the header pins.  He's not ready to be putting an iron anywhere near the CPU board.

[ChadTower]

But they wouldn't get to the speakers if the circuit going to the speakers is open, yes?  Have we proven yet that it is generating anything?  All we have is the seller's word that "I used to wiggle these connectors to get sound" but we can't reproduce that.

[vintagegamer]

Many thanks PJ, but I'm in MD so that's a pretty long-@$$ drive

If I have to pull the board, is it worth considering one of those all-in-one boards?  After all, who's to say something else might go after I get this fixed?

As for the soldering, I'm actually pretty f*k'd off that I can't get it down right.  I had to learn to MIG weld to restore my Chevelle, and it's funny I can do that all day long, but soldering kicks my @$$..  Oh well, I have my share of gifts/talents already, so it's OK if there's 1 or 2 I suk at.

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

Well didn't I just pick the gem...   

[vintagegamer]

System9 machines will still generate music and sound effects without the daughter card.

Then going off of this detail, that points directly to a. speakers or b. broken solder joint I assume.  Waiting for this speech card to come in the mail is probably a wasted effort then I assume (aside from me dropping the one speech eprom into the bowels of hell).

[ChadTower]

There are very very few pins that do have an all in one replacement, all of them earlier SS games.  An all in one board for a System9 would be a downgrade.  There is a reason the boards are segregated as they are.

Soldering isn't hard once you get it.  I had a hell of a time figuring it out, then all of a sudden BAM I was good at it.  My problem was crappy equipment an inexperience.  I got a reasonable station and some solder that wasn't ancient and was fine from there.

[shardian]

reflowing is EASY and doesn't really require soldering skill. Just get the iron up to temp, set it on each pin until the solder melts, then release. TA DA! you can redo a whole board in minutes.

[vintagegamer]

I think that is precisely my issue, Chad.  I kept trying to use one of those lame solder guns with the bent tip on it..  Kept getting solder on the gun tip and kaput it was ruined.

Then my neighbor helped me fix something once, and HIS soldering iron looked more like an ice pik, and he put solder on the tip and blammo he did the trick w/it.  So, I think I might just need the right equipment.

VINTAGEGAMER

[ChadTower]

reflowing is EASY and doesn't really require soldering skill. Just get the iron up to temp, set it on each pin until the solder melts, then release. TA DA! you can redo a whole board in minutes.

When I was having trouble I couldn't do that.  Looking back I now know it was a crappy copper tip that got all filthy when it got hot, of course making it less hot, and not so effective at actually melting solder.  I'd sit there and be like WTF when I couldn't even tin the thing... it was an iron I was given by someone at work along with some solder and it turned out both the iron and the solder were crap but I didn't know enough to know it yet.

[shardian]

I think that is precisely my issue, Chad.  I kept trying to use one of those lame solder guns with the bent tip on it..  Kept getting solder on the gun tip and kaput it was ruined.

Then my neighbor helped me fix something once, and HIS soldering iron looked more like an ice pik, and he put solder on the tip and blammo he did the trick w/it.  So, I think I might just need the right equipment.

VINTAGEGAMER

Using a solder gun is like taking a sledge hammer to a finishing nail in this case. get yourself a decent soldering workstation. If you plan on working on pins, a really good soldering station with variable temp would be ideal. I use this and it works just fine and is also the first iron I've ever used without burning myself  :

[vintagegamer]

Thanks for the insight guys- Sharidan, I will see if the local HD has that unit.

I'm also updating my profile to read "solder impaired" 

[ChadTower]

Is that an Xacto knife style tip?

I got the station I use most off Freecycle.  Old two temp Weller station.  Heats fast, evenly, does a very good job.  For the most part, once you understand what you're doing, you can get the job done with a $10 pencil iron.  Learning is much tougher when your tool sucks, though.

[shardian]

Is that an Xacto knife style tip?

I got the station I use most off Freecycle.  Old two temp Weller station.  Heats fast, evenly, does a very good job.  For the most part, once you understand what you're doing, you can get the job done with a $10 pencil iron.  Learning is much tougher when your tool sucks, though.

Yep it is a heated xacto tip. For $26, that kit is a very good value. The soldering iron is two temp, with a "ready" indicator. All of the tips are included as shown in the pic. I ordered mine off of amazon:
Amazon Link

[ChadTower]

500 degrees is too cold for board work, and 900 is far too hot.  That's not a suitable soldering iron.

It's a good point... it doesn't list electronics in potential uses, none of the pics show it used that way, and the first review actually says not suitable for electronics.  Every other review is based on other tasks.

Probably not a good one for learning, but could be used by someone who has some experience.

[shardian]

500 degrees is too cold for board work, and 900 is far too hot.  That's not a suitable soldering iron.

It's a good point... it doesn't list electronics in potential uses, none of the pics show it used that way, and the first review actually says not suitable for electronics.  Every other review is based on other tasks.

Probably not a good one for learning, but could be used by someone who has some experience.

I think that 900 number is overrated. I only use it on electronics and it works great. 

[ChadTower]

I'd be afraid of it swinging those arms around screaming DANGER WILL ROBINSON.

[shardian]

I'd be afraid of it swinging those arms around screaming DANGER WILL ROBINSON.

That would kick ass! I could train it to help me hold and move things.

[vintagegamer]

I'd be afraid of it swinging those arms around screaming DANGER WILL ROBINSON.

LOL

[vintagegamer]

Pop out the CPU board, vintage, and take an up close photo of the back where those two connectors plug in.

Reflowing is very easy.  Hell you could hold a match under the solder points for a few seconds and probably do the job. 

500 degrees is too cold for board work, and 900 is far too hot.  That's not a suitable soldering iron.

PJ, you have me determined to do this this wknd..  I will get pics and forward for all the world to see.  That will rock if that's all that's causing the problem.  I really want to kick the caveman's @$$ who would do such damage to a poor defenseless pin..

[ChadTower]

I have a helping hands set sort of like that.  It's stupid.  Any board more than a couple inches square tips the thing over.  Real helpful.

[shardian]

I have a helping hands set sort of like that.  It's stupid.  Any board more than a couple inches square tips the thing over.  Real helpful.

The only thing I've ever really used helping hands for is to splice wires together.

[vintagegamer]

What is helping hands?

[shardian]

What is helping hands?

The positional arms with alligator clips on the end shown in my soldering iron pic.

[vintagegamer]

Will any of these be adequate for me?  I'm less than 1 mi away from Home Depot at my work.

Link to Home Depot

The "gun" one ($40) is the one I have always killed in the past.

[ChadTower]

The only one even close is the 40 watt pencil iron and that's still too hot.  Home depot is the wrong place.

Don't bother with the Cold Heat iron.  Says right on the box NOT FOR USE ON ELECTRONICS.  Plus it sucks.

[vintagegamer]

I was thinking of going after the pencil iron one, but I guess not.  You guys are determined to make me do mail order and wait longer 

[shardian]

My home depot only had the really, really crappy soldering Iron. Come to think of it, I went for amazon because of the fact nowhere had a decent iron. You can get a decent soldering station at Radio Shack, but you will pay about 1000% what it is worth. They have priced themselves right out of the market.

[vintagegamer]

Yeah they have some digital mo-bob that's like $70. 

Radio Shack Link

I'm not trying to fix HAL 9000, I just want to reheat some solder..  CAN'T A MAN JUST REHEAT SOME SOLDER AROUND HERE???  I'm starting to dig PJ's match technique.   

[ChadTower]

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=29053.0

That's a good thread from when I was asking the same thing a couple years ago.

[vintagegamer]

Thanks Chad- just wishing for once I could walk into a STORE that had something, rather than have to point, click, order, get banged over the head on shipping, and sit and wait.  Kind of defeats the purposes of stores when we have so many out there, filled w/crap for the wrong applications.

Did anyone look at the Radio Shack one I posted above?  The one with the station for $70?  Would that be half decent?  I'd love to be able to pick something up on the way home- I have kids now, so if I go home, I'm not allowed back out 

[shardian]

That's the thing about Radio Shack, their self branded products aren't that great. If you are going to spend $70, might as well get your moneys worth.

[ChadTower]

Some are quite good but you have to know which ones.  The Radio Shack DMM I have is very good, has a serial interface for recording measurements over time on the PC.

[vintagegamer]

I think the biggest question I have right now is what is the temp I need to be at to do this- from there I can choose the iron I guess.  Chad mentioned earlier that 900 is too high- so where do I need to be?

Thanks!

VINTAGEGAMER

[ChadTower]

Varies by what you're soldering, really, but most work is going to be in the mid-range between those two temperatures.  The problem with most bottom range irons is that you can't control the temperature at all.

[vintagegamer]

Thanks PJ, my hope wasn't so much to be cheap, I just wanted to find something that I could buy in a store that would satisfy my needs for now.  But going on the feedback from the others, the closest thing that would meet all necessary requirements that I could buy in a store is the Radio Shack one with the digital readout (see link above, it was $62).

[ChadTower]

If you absolutely have to have one same day, and all you have around is a Radio Shack, this one isn't a complete waste.  You could get done what you want and not look back when it's time to upgrade.

[shardian]

If you absolutely have to have one same day, and all you have around is a Radio Shack, this one isn't a complete waste.  You could get done what you want and not look back when it's time to upgrade.

I always end up burning myself with the el-cheapo soldering irons. If you use one of those, make for darn sure you keep your pinky and ring finger safely and securely tucked down. Soldering iron burns SUCK!!!

[vintagegamer]

Closest things to me are Radio Shack and Home Depot, so yeah my choices are kind of limited..  unless of course you guys know of another shop that would carry irons.

My biggest gripe is right now I'm waiting on:

replacement speech card (which I might not even need now)
replacement pinballs (since the others are rusted)
Novus 2
new bumpers

I basically shouldn't be playing the game w/o any of them, but of course I have to sit and wait for the USPOS before I can do anything further.  So, if I could at least fix the main cpu in the meantime, it would be great w/o having to wait helplessly for another box to show up.

[ChadTower]

Welcome to the hobby.  That's how it works, unfortunately.  You'll learn to bundle your orders together and anticipate future needs on certain items so you can save on shipping. 

[vintagegamer]

 

Easy way to check the speakers:  attach them to something else.  They're no different from other regular speakers.

I used a speaker and a wire I had lying around, and it basically creates the same hum as the other speakers in the machine.  Looks like I'm pulling the main board.  And I'm sure I'll break something else on the way out, but it looks like I have no alternative.  Wish me luck.

[ChadTower]

BTW - I have one of these and it really helps my PCB work.  Cheap and effective.

[RichSorr]

BTW - I have one of these and it really helps my PCB work.  Cheap and effective.

I had something similar, but it also had a group of LED lights on it. Super helpful when working in tight spots inside a game and if you're out in the field

[vintagegamer]

Today's updates: in the mail came my new flipper rubbers, pinballs, novus 2, and bulbs- JOY!  I got the playfield cleaned up and installed the new balls and rubbers.  They rock- she's looking pretty again!

Sometime in the near future I'll be picking up a soldering iron and pulling the CPU.  To be honest I'm terrified of the job, simply over the concern of breaking something else in the process- the game works great minus the sound now, I'm just hoping I don't go further backwords.

In the meantime I do have another question- the left set of bumpers above the right flipper sometimes "bump" an extra amount after the ball makes contact and leaves them..  Is there anything I can do (ie oil) to help with this issue?  Or is the function all electrical?

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

Adjust the switch under the bumper that's firing too much.

Please provide steps if you don't mind, since I've never done this before-  glad to hear it can be corrected though!

[ChadTower]

Please provide steps if you don't mind, since I've never done this before-  glad to hear it can be corrected though!

His cause is solid - switch needs adjusting.  This is the type of thing you learn by reading the marvin3m guide.  Read it a couple of times, the whole thing, and maybe read the guides for other system pins.  I used to keep a printout in the bathroom.  It's a ten minute operation at the most and you're going to want to shop this pin out anyway, which is totally laid out in those guides.

BTW, Rich, mine has LEDs too... they're not a flashlight, but hey, I paid $15 shipped for the thing and usually bring a clamp light with me anyway.

[vintagegamer]

I'll check it out again Chad, thx-  I read it a few times in the past, but I kept seeming to get lost b/c there wasn't a clear path (imo) to the system 9 game section.  I'll look over it once more tho.

VINTAGEGAMER

[ChadTower]

Adjusting switches, swapping coil sleeves, rebuilding flippers, etc are not unique to Sys9 and can be picked from any of the other sections.  Sys7 is a pretty comprehensive guide, try that.

Just looked, the guide you want is Sys11, the Sys9 stuff is in there because they are very very very similar.  Your game is even listed in the Sys11 section.

[vintagegamer]

I would like to try the business card clean process that Marvin 3M recommends first- does this take place on the components UNDER the playfield?  The place where the trouble switch is located is on the left bumper piece under the Sorcerer's "beard" in the below pic.

[ChadTower]

Pretty much all of the switches are under the playfield.

[Kevin Mullins]

Yup.... and if you haven't taken a good look under the playfield yet..... prepare yourself.
 

Adjusting the switches is generally a matter of tweaking the leafs one way or another.
Sounds to me like you have one sticking closed when it should release.
Usually (in your case the bumper) you can activate the bumper and while it's stuck you can open or close the leaf switches to figure out which one needs to be adjusted.

Edit: Just looked at your pic again and realized what you were talking about. ( I was thinking about POP bumpers for some reason)

Those bumpers need adjusted from the top side of the playfield. You'll see the leaf switch right behind the rubber. The gap is probably too close. So bending the switch a tad to make the gap between the contacts wider should do it for ya. When the ball hits the rubber, the switch should make contact. When the rubber rebounds due to it's natural elasticity, the switch should open and remain open. The contact could be a bit dirty too from arcing, so try the business card trick and slide it in between the two contacts a couple times.

[vintagegamer]

And............... the PCB IS OUT!  The pics show it before removal, and the following 2 show the audio connectors.  I can take more pics, but was having probs getting a clear pic of the back of the board- the one that you DO see shows some char around where the "left" connector hooks up on the front.  So, tell me where to go from here..  (reminder: troubleshooting sound issue)

[ChadTower]

That looks more like flux from previous rework than char.  If you solder a joint like that it leaves behind some shiny and slightly brown stuff - that's the flux inside the new solder.  A good worker will clean that off with a swipe of alcohol afterwards but not everyone does.

[vintagegamer]

I noticed some other spots that looked like repairs too Chad, so I'm wondering if I should just look around for a PCB in better shape?  I was told by someone that it's hard to find boards for this game that haven't already had extensive repairs tho.

[ChadTower]

There's nothing wrong with a board that has had work if the work was done well.  Most boards by now have had work. 

[Kevin Mullins]

I agree .... kinda hard to tell from the pic, but it looks more like leftover flux. Can you lightly rub it off with your finger? I would still go ahead and resolder those points just to help us eliminate some troubleshooting points. Just heat them up to the point of beginning to molten(?) and dab some new solder on them.

Also, there is a smaller IC on the top side of the board that appears to be in a socket near the taller black heatsink near those connectors..... maybe it's just the angle of the pic.... but it appears to be slightly pulled out. (?) Re-seat it to be sure.

And NO.... I doubt you'll ever fnd a replacement board that hasn't had repairs done to it already. That's just the nature of the beast with ANY older game equipment.

[ChadTower]

Whatever is attached to that heat sink is one of the things that was replaced.  You can tell from the underside pic, the sink prongs are visible.

[vintagegamer]

Do I need to take better pics for anyone of anything specific?  I appreciate you guys looking at this for me.

Also, I noticed that only 5 screws were holding the board in place..  Could there be grounding issues preventing the sound from working?  Just thinking out loud-

[Kevin Mullins]

Also, I noticed that only 5 screws were holding the board in place.. 

Ugh !! .... I can't stand techs or anyone in general that does that. (pet-peeve of mine)

I highly doubt it's a grounding issue from the screw mounts. Those should have all the grounds through the wiring harness.

[vintagegamer]

Nope, I've never heard any sound come out of the game in the time I've had it-  I spoke also with "beaver" on the rec.games.pinball forum, and he seems to think that if the speech card has probs, then I won't get any sound at all.

I am going to wait for the speech card to arrive in the mail, and then try the board with that connected to it before going any further.  I'll keep everyone posted.  Thanks again!

[vintagegamer]

Hmmm...  guys I think I may have found another clue on my no sound issue tonight..

I decided to put the board back in the machine, because 'a' I had the time, and 'b' I was afraid I'd forget something if I waited longer, and something staring me right in the face came to my attention...  Remember when I was asking everyone how to find the S/N of this machine?  Well, while putting the PCB back in, I noticed the infamous Sesame Street "One Of These Things Is Not Like The Other"...   the model # on the PCB is 1916, when all the others are 532..  Upon checking the following site, it appears the PCB is from "Strike Zone SHUFFLE ALLEY" (not even a pin!!!), and the sound configuration is a bit different:

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:Cl0ea6ViByQJ:terminus.litz.org/wms-roms.html+williams+pinball+model+532&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

http://www.gameroomwarehouse.com/arcade/strike_zone.html

So my next question is, would sound even work with this thing in its current configuration?  The link above shows it's a System 9 board, BUT the music/speech configuration appears to be different.. Have I just made this mystery brighter or darker?

Awaiting further instruction...

VINTAGEGAMER

[ChadTower]

So check the manual for proper dip settings and verify the roms.

[vintagegamer]

Well, the speech card arrived today from Canada, and I installed it- once again I can hear the
volume going up and down when I turn the volume pot on both the speech card
and inside under the playfield, but still no sounds.  I also tried pushing
the sound test button with the new speech card in, and I don't hear
anything.

Anything else anyone can think it might be before I have to pull the PCB out
again?  It really seems like it has to be something stupid at this point- if
the speakers were blown, I don't think I'd hear the volume going up and
down, right?

VINTAGEGAMER

[shardian]

Well, the speech card arrived today from Canada, and I installed it- once again I can hear the
volume going up and down when I turn the volume pot on both the speech card
and inside under the playfield, but still no sounds.  I also tried pushing
the sound test button with the new speech card in, and I don't hear
anything.

Anything else anyone can think it might be before I have to pull the PCB out
again?  It really seems like it has to be something stupid at this point- if
the speakers were blown, I don't think I'd hear the volume going up and
down, right?

VINTAGEGAMER

Have you tried replacing the speakers? have you done continuity testing on the speaker wiring, check and reflow connectors, etc? This may have been asked before in this thread, but I really didn't feel like looking.

[vintagegamer]

I tried hooking up another speaker to the existing one in the back panel "loosely"- specifically held a wire where the contacts hit the other speaker and got the same static/hiss.  I didn't cut the wire and splice to a new speaker tho.

It just seems odd that I would hear everything but the sounds.  If something were wrong on the board with the sound, would I still hear static/hum?

[Kevin Mullins]

If something were wrong on the board with the sound, would I still hear static/hum?

Yes .... what that means is that both your speakers and the amplifier are working.... you are simply not getting the sound samples from the processor side of things.

Have you gently pulled all the socketed chips in the general area of the sound amplifier and speaker connectors and re-seated them in this pic?

[vintagegamer]

Thanks Kevin-

I will admit after I dropped the one ROM that belonged in the speech card (still haven't been able to locate it in the machine), I was hesitant to reseat anything else until I took the PCB out.  Then I had the PCB out, but to be honest didn't remember to do this before putting it back in the machine-  I will try to do that tomorrow night and see what happens. 

Thanks again to all for your ongoing support with me on this- there is nothing worse than KNOWING something dumb is keeping you from success..  Stay tuned!

PS: can someone point out where on the above pic the sound amplifier is?  Just for curiosity's sake?

[vintagegamer]

OK..  I guess I know when to accept defeat.   I came home from work, took out ALL of the chips, 1 at a time and reseated them, and checked each one before reseating.  They all felt like they hadn't been removed in a long time-  The only chip that appeared to have any "damage" was the one shown just above the battery holder, located between SR11 and SR12 on the PCB.  It's missing one pin.  I couldn't find anything in my schematic that indicated that circuit had anything to do with the sound, but who knows what that could be impacting.



It looks like I'll be taking the hit on buying another PCB.  I just absolutely hate knowing in the back of my head that something stupid is preventing this thing from making sound again.  I do however thank everyone for their input, and if you have any other suggestions or thoughts going off of what I provided above, I'm all ears.  DAM I hate being beaten.

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

I got to pop the cap off of this yesterday and yes Kevin you were right on the money: the contacts were too close together, and I actually know why- the ball had managed to get itself in there a couple weeks ago and I had to finnagle stuff around to get it back out.  The result in the ball getting in that area bent up the contacts.  So, I popped the top, bent the contacts apart CAREFULLY, and I also cleaned the contacts with a business card.  Upon putting everything back together, it now only responds when the ball hits it, and only does so ONE TIME..   Joy!   When I saw how this part of the game worked, I have to admit I was totally impressed.   It is simply amazing how much electrical engineering and related physics go into making a game like this work.  Like with a car though, you never really realize that until you "see" what's making the functionality happen right in front of your face.

I also noticed yesterday that when the ball goes up the right side of the playfield and hits the spinner to let the machine know that it should show the letter "R" of Sorcerer as hit/bumped/enabled, it's not doing what it should..   So, you can get the word "SORCERER" lit up 99% but no payoff for getting the last 'R'.  I'm pretty sure it's something within the spinner connection, because for every other part of the game display, the light blinks as it should- it just doesn't register that the ball has hit that spot.  My daughter's bday is in July and we have a party that weekend (duh), so I think I'm going to WAIT to mess with that.  Something about lifting the playfield right now tells me "don't do it".

And in final update news, I found 3 more screws in the cab that should have been in to hold the PCB in place.  I also found the eprom that I dropped from the speech card!  Amen..

Yup.... and if you haven't taken a good look under the playfield yet..... prepare yourself.
 

Adjusting the switches is generally a matter of tweaking the leafs one way or another.
Sounds to me like you have one sticking closed when it should release.
Usually (in your case the bumper) you can activate the bumper and while it's stuck you can open or close the leaf switches to figure out which one needs to be adjusted.

Edit: Just looked at your pic again and realized what you were talking about. ( I was thinking about POP bumpers for some reason)

Those bumpers need adjusted from the top side of the playfield. You'll see the leaf switch right behind the rubber. The gap is probably too close. So bending the switch a tad to make the gap between the contacts wider should do it for ya. When the ball hits the rubber, the switch should make contact. When the rubber rebounds due to it's natural elasticity, the switch should open and remain open. The contact could be a bit dirty too from arcing, so try the business card trick and slide it in between the two contacts a couple times.

[vintagegamer]

I also noticed yesterday that when the ball goes up the right side of the playfield and hits the spinner to let the machine know that it should show the letter "R" of Sorcerer as hit/bumped/enabled, it's not doing what it should..   So, you can get the word "SORCERER" lit up 99% but no payoff for getting the last 'R'.  I'm pretty sure it's something within the spinner connection, because for every other part of the game display, the light blinks as it should- it just doesn't register that the ball has hit that spot.  My daughter's bday is in July and we have a party that weekend (duh), so I think I'm going to WAIT to mess with that.  Something about lifting the playfield right now tells me "don't do it".

Because the desire to have a perfect-working machine becomes an addiction (you guys forgot to mention that), I went ahead and lifted up the playfield to see what was causing the problem above with the final 'R' of SORCERER..   Upon inspection, the spinner piece on top of the playfield is successfully connected to the corresponding rod underneath (thought it may have been disconnected), and I cleaned the contacts on the switch using the business card trick once more.  I put the playfield back down, and with the glass still off, fired up the machine and started a game- I tried spinning the spinner by hand to see if it would register the change, and nothing happened- the 'R' still blinks like it wasn't acted upon.  I also loosened the bracket holding the spinner, and lifted it up a little to see if the spinner was out of adjustment, and still nothing changed..

Does this part normally fail easily in pins?  Or does this sound like something more electrical or even PCB oriented?  I looked at the solder on the connections for that switch, and they appear to be in the same "in tact" shape as the one used for the 'S' spinner (which IS functional).  Sorry I don't have a pic, I was worried about the playfield coming down on my head 

Also, is there a 12-step program for this desire for perfection illness?  I see myself being totally consumed..

[Kevin Mullins]

Sorry I don't have a pic, I was worried about the playfield coming down on my head

There's not a prop rod or groove the playfield slides back into to hold it up?
I'm not sure what the proper setup on that one is, but there should be a way for it to hold itself up.

As for the spinner registering issue...... could be a simple transistor on the main pcb not working to trigger it.
But since you have a new pcb on the way, I'd leave that one alone until you put the new one in.

[SirPeale]

When you're testing, are you putting the machine into test mode, or are you firing up a game?

[vintagegamer]

Sorry I don't have a pic, I was worried about the playfield coming down on my head

There's not a prop rod or groove the playfield slides back into to hold it up?
I'm not sure what the proper setup on that one is, but there should be a way for it to hold itself up.

As for the spinner registering issue...... could be a simple transistor on the main pcb not working to trigger it.
But since you have a new pcb on the way, I'd leave that one alone until you put the new one in.

Thanks Kevin, I was hoping someone else might think along those lines too.  The board might be here today (holding breath).

As for the prop rod, I didn't see one but will look around- is it mounted into a bracked or anything like that?

[vintagegamer]

When you're testing, are you putting the machine into test mode, or are you firing up a game?

For this time around, I simply fired up a game.  I thought that would be the easiest way to check the switch after cleaning it up.

[ChadTower]

Use the switch test mode.

[SirPeale]

ALWAYS Use the switch test mode.

fixt

[vintagegamer]

Lemme see how things go with the new board (hoping it comes today).

As always, thx for the wisdom   

[ChadTower]

Stop buying new boards and start learning to troubleshoot.  It's the only way.

[vintagegamer]

I'm definitely getting up to speed on alot of stuff, and I plan to keep the original board to do exactly that.

Funny thing is, I remember playing this pin when I was a kid, and the weird part is I don't remember hearing any sounds on that one either!  And that was in the early 90s!  If this one ends up working and I get to hear the voice, it will tell me real quick if I've heard it before or not.   I just want to hear the dude talk, even if he only says 3 things..

[shardian]

Funny thing is, I remember playing this pin when I was a kid, and the weird part is I don't remember hearing any sounds on that one either!  And that was in the early 90s!  If this one ends up working and I get to hear the voice, it will tell me real quick if I've heard it before or not.   I just want to hear the dude talk, even if he only says 3 things..

Cough...cough...Visual Pinball...cough.

It is my opinion that visual pinball can serve as an effective tool in pinball troubleshooting/diagnostics.

[vintagegamer]

What is Visual Pinball?


(PS new PCB has arrived- stay tuned!!!)

[shardian]

What is Visual Pinball?


(PS new PCB has arrived- stay tuned!!!)

Well lets put it this way, would you like a fully functional computer model of your pinball machine that uses the actual rom files to control physically (close enough at least)accurate components on the table and uses the actual sound roms/dmd roms to boot? If so, then you might want to look into it.
Below is a screenshot from the sorcerer visual pinball game.

[vintagegamer]

DROOL..

[ChadTower]

It's not all that useful, actually, in troubleshooting a game.  Here it would be useful so he can hear the sounds but other than that, it's more useful for a surface evaluation on whether or not you like a game.

[shardian]

It's not all that useful, actually, in troubleshooting a game.  Here it would be useful so he can hear the sounds but other than that, it's more useful for a surface evaluation on whether or not you like a game.

VP has kept me from buying several pins local that I knew I just wouldn't enjoy. Any time I see one up for sale locally, I always check out the VP table.

[ChadTower]

VP is the whore that seduced me to buy a Fathom.   

[vintagegamer]

Well fellow gamers, I opened up the box with the reconditioned board in it.....


Took out the old board.......






Installed the replacement..................










Wired everything up...............................








Closed my eyes..............................









Powered up the game expecting to hear *PAP!!!* followed by a trickle of smoke, but instead I heard...









"I....................... AM ..  SORCERER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"          

My original speakers are in tact and functional, the new board is configured properly to give only 3 balls right now, and most of all.........  I HAVE SOUNDS AND SPEECH!!!!

I know you guys probably thought me being a bit premature in grabbing another board, but I'm still at entry level on alot of the repair stuff and this way I have a head start with the machine.  The only thing still not responding is the final "R" issue I reported earlier, so I guess next I will have to do the switch test as many of you recommended-  if you can give me the basics on what to do, that would be great.  If not, I will try to figure it out via the manual or 3M.  MANY thanks to all who have helped me get this game to where it is now-  I'm afraid to shut it OFF!!!

VINTAGEGAMER

[Kevin Mullins]

Congrats on the functioning speech / sound .....

Probably still a simple enough fix on the old board with enough given time working on it.

The only thing still not responding is the final "R" issue I reported earlier

I would use a meter to check continuity of both the ground lead and the switch lead. Check for continuity all the way from the "switch" at the spinner to the main cpu board. (the one you just replaced)
Since you replaced the main board, we can almost eliminate a transistor on the cpu board.
So maybe it has a bad ground or something.

[shardian]

Just in case you aren't sure how to use the meter to check continuity, here is a quick refresher:

Continuity is checked by measuring resistance (ohms). The basic theory can be summarized visually by setting the multimeter to measure ohms. When your leads are apart, the meter reads maximum ohms. This means there is no continuity between the leads - they are not connected. When you touch them together, the meter reads 0 ohms - the leads are connected. Easy huh? Now all you do is touch the leads to two points on the board you want to check. If they are connected in any way, the meter will move towards zero. A good connection will go all the way to 0 ohms. A possible intermittent connection or cold solder will show movement, but may stop before reaching 0 (assuming you are checking straight wiring and no resistors are between the leads). That is a connection you want to check.

Congrats on the sound!

[vintagegamer]

Thanks for the info Sharidan-

I think I need to take a pic of my multimeter and show you guys, since I can never remember what setting is "ohms" (I know, I'm a moron).

I pretty much bought it to test volts/amperage on cars-  that I can do all day long!

In regard to the machine, I actually ran out this AM before going to work and powered it up again, JUST to make sure everything was still working after I powered it down last night.  I've had that happen before, where I think I have everything fixed and the next day it's like it was a dream...  Thankfully, everything still works!



VINTAGEGAMER

[ChadTower]

EDIT:  nyeh, read the manual.

A multimeter almost always has a continuity mode.

[shardian]

Thanks for the info Sharidan-

I think I need to take a pic of my multimeter and show you guys, since I can never remember what setting is "ohms" (I know, I'm a moron).

I pretty much bought it to test volts/amperage on cars-  that I can do all day long!

In regard to the machine, I actually ran out this AM before going to work and powered it up again, JUST to make sure everything was still working after I powered it down last night.  I've had that happen before, where I think I have everything fixed and the next day it's like it was a dream...  Thankfully, everything still works!



VINTAGEGAMER

Look for this symbol "Ω" on your multimeter.

[vintagegamer]

EDIT:  nyeh, read the manual.

I think it's MIA..   

[Kevin Mullins]

A multimeter almost always has a continuity mode.

Would be a symbol like an arrow with a line at the point.
Also commonly refered to as the "beep mode" if yours has the audible beep for continuity.

Look for this symbol "Ω" on your multimeter.

Would normally have a scale like 200 - 2K - 20K - 200K - 2M - etc - etc


Is your meter digital or analog?
A pic would help confirm all your questions as well.
The cheapest of the cheap meters will do what you need it to do.
(my meter cost about $20.00 twelve years ago...... does the job just fine)

[shardian]

I have a $5 analog that does everything I need it to. The only prob with analogs is that they can be confusing to read if you aren't used to them.

[ChadTower]

Don't ask him to post a pic of his DMM.  He needs to get the manual.  Pretty much every maker posts them on their website.

[vintagegamer]

I didn't get to post a pic yet b/c I was putting the backglass for the pin back in the machine last night (JOY!!!!).  It looks awesome!

The DMM I have is powered by a 9-volt battery, has the traditional click dial in the middle and a digital LED to show voltages, and it has AC on one side and DC on the  other side of the dial.  It came from Auto Zone if I recall.

Will try to get more info on the meter tonight-

[shardian]

Would normally have a scale like 200 - 2K - 20K - 200K - 2M - etc - etc

At this point, it doesn't matter if your meter is digital or analog. If you have a dial that has DC and AC ranges for volts and amps, there is also a section on there for resistance. The above quote, along with the symbol I showed you are what you are looking for. There are probably less selections than above, but the format is the same. You have everything you need. For something as simple as continuity, you don't need a picture or the manual. You have everything you need, now get to work! [whip] CRACK!! [/whip]

[vintagegamer]

THANK YOU SIR MAY I HAVE ANOTHER!!!     

[Hammerhead]

Some DMM's are auto sensing, meaning you don't have to set the range, the DMM does it automatically (auto sensing is usually on the more expensive ones) Mine is a Blue Point and only has settings for volts AC. and volts DC with no scale. I use it for automotive repair mostly, but it works for my pinball project also. Hope this helps and isn't confusing, I just joined the forum so I am new to posting.

[ChadTower]

That isn't a DMM.  That's a voltmeter.

DMM - digital multimeter.  Would be able to measure resistance, capacitance,  diode check, continuity, voltage and amperage ac or dc...

[shardian]

That isn't a DMM.  That's a voltmeter.

DMM - digital multimeter.  Would be able to measure resistance, capacitance,  diode check, continuity, voltage and amperage ac or dc...

The better Flukes are auto scaling.

[Hammerhead]

Sorry if my reply was confusing, mine is a DMM, and does measure Resistance capacitance, diode check etc., I was just trying to say that it is auto scaling, and has settings for volts AC, and volt DC instead of a scale like some others, my pocket DMM has the scale, but my bigger unit is auto scaling and only has the 2 settings. Sorry for the confusion.

[ChadTower]

Doesn't have to be a better fluke to do autoranging, I have a $20 radio shack DMM that does that.

[Kevin Mullins]

It came from Auto Zone if I recall.

What model is it?