I have many questions about my SORCERER pin

[vintagegamer]

Order has been placed 

Replacement speech board/card is on the way as well- I'm really hoping that's all that's causing the problem.  Judging from the overall condition of the machine and that everything else is working, I'm feeling confident that's probably the issue.

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

Sorry for all of the questions, but man I keep running into alot of oddities here..   On my Sorcerer pin, there are (or were) black rubbers around the flippers at the bottom.  Also, in the pic at the below link, the rubbers are also black:

http://www.pinballrebel.com/game/pins/sorcerer/sorcerer_pinball.htm

However, in the manual I downloaded, it shows those bumpers should actually be RED, with part #23-6519-4.  So, where does the discrepancy lie?  Were some models possibly made with red, and then they switched over to black at some point? 

I think I'm starting to see why only 3700 of these were made..  People couldn't make up their minds! 

[ChadTower]

Personal preference, they are the same except for color.

[vintagegamer]

AHA!  Red!

[vintagegamer]

OK I have a new speech card on the way, but I noticed that the speech card only has 4 Eproms on it, where the game uses a total of 7 to make all the effects work:

Game U19 L-1
Game U20 L-1
Sound U49 L-1
Speech U4 L-1
Speech U5 L-1
Speech U6 L-1
Speech U7 L-1

If in fact the speech card was shot, wouldn't I still hear the other sounds?  Again all I hear is a hiss in my pin when turning up the volume..  Or, is it that the speech data also triggers the other back-end sounds and effects?  I'm just trying to understand how it all works.  Thanks!

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

I actually thought maybe applying packing tape along the bottom would help protect the decal- it's already got some flaking to it, so I was thinking this would both keep it on AND protect it from the base channel I need to put on it.  Maybe just a thin line of it along the bottom of the glass?

VINTAGEGAMER

[Q*Bert_OP]

Personal preference, they are the same except for color.

Black is usually 60 durometer, red is 45...black has a shorter life and is much stiffer, less bouncy, but shows little dirt build-up...red gets dirty very quickly...

[ChadTower]

Home use.  This isn't a route machine anymore.

[Kevin Mullins]

Had you run the sound test yet?
It should cycle through ALL the available sounds and such one at a time.

It's been awhile since I've played with a Williams sound board, but I "think" it should still play the sounds from the roms that are present even if the others are sounds are missing.
But then again..... these sound boards are known to have problems when they get of this age.

[vintagegamer]

Thanks again for offering your assistance, Kevin-

I pushed the button on the main CPU which I "think" is the sound diagnostic switch, and I hear nothing at all.  It also sounds like the volume switch inside works somewhat like a "balance", so I tried both that adjuster along with the one on the speech board, and get nothing but a faint hiss-  the seller said his son could get it to work from time to time by........"pulling on THIS and THIS" (grabbing wires as I stood there about ready to vomit).  So I'm HOPING that the son's efforts were simply squeezing the last few sounds out of a dying card.   We'll see once the new card arrives (hopefully by the end of this week).

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

Yeah I'm not a HUGE "all original" fan, but if the parts are readily available w/o having a deathly price ticket affixed to them, I'm game.

I ordered the red ones today from pinballlife (along with all my other needs), so I'm hoping they have a VERY efficient shipping dept 


VINTAGEGAMER

[Kevin Mullins]

Have you pulled the board and just looked at the backside for bad solder joints?

Possibly try removing and re-seating the roms and any other socketed chips.

If he could "push and pull" "this and that" to make it work....sounds like a bad connection to me.

[Kevin Mullins]

Yes...just to confirm..... RED for the flippers.

black has a shorter life and is much stiffer, less bouncy, but shows little dirt build-up...

Yeah, it doesn't show the dirt much because it's too busy "creating it".   
(another source of the "black dust" besides any metal coil sleeves)

[vintagegamer]

Have you pulled the board and just looked at the backside for bad solder joints?

I assume you're referring to pulling the speech/sound card?  Not the main CPU board?  To answer your question, no I have not done that- just checked the ribbon cable going from the card to the CPU board..

[vintagegamer]

I only located one volume mo-bob thingy on the speech card, and the volume knob thingy underneath the playfield- is there another I've missed somewhere?  [cringing in hope]

[Kevin Mullins]

All stellar.

Haha.... amazing what pops up when you're (me) racking your brain trying to remember the name of something you worked on awhile back related to the subject. (a Williams pin in this case)

STELLAR WARS !!   

I couldn't think of it for the life of me.

Anyways, sorry to interrupt...please carry on.

[GreenKnight37]

Have you checked RGP?  Usenet group - Rec.Games.Pinball ?

You can access the group via Google Groups.  They're a bit passionate and tend to have lots of flame/spam wars, but they are very helpful.

I'm sure one of them has a Sorcerer and can help you with the exact size.  If you don't have the original, full-blown, technical manual, you can get the PDF of that at IPDB.org   Your post mentioned a manual so you may have this already.  If you've got lighting/wiring info and 20+ pages, then you probably have the technical manual already.

[Kevin Mullins]

The thing I keep thinking about is, the guy had alot of older pins lying around, and when doing some reading last night I noticed one supplier had 3/4" balls which were used for some older pin games- 

Those 3/4" were used in some really oddball machines like my Hyperball.
Even though Hyperball is a Williams game close to the age of yours..... I highly doubt your pin uses them. (besides.... this one uses about 100 of them)
They are definately not the "standard" size ball.

1 1/16" would be what is considered the "standard".

[vintagegamer]

Thanks again all for the feedback and input- I ordered the 1 1/6" balls yesterday, so hoping they will be here soon.

And for whomever asked about if I had a manual for the game, I d/l'ded a 37 meg PDF that broke out to about 40 pages.  It looks to be the right one-

I greatly appreciate everyone's help w/this!

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

I will have to take a pic of the components I see, and hopefully you guys can help point me to where I need to be.  I can see the speech card, but last night upon looking I couldn't find anything else sound-related (then again, I was also half-asleep).  I will post a pic and we can go from there.

I too think it's just something stupid preventing the sound from working, I just need to find out what it is! 

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

Thanks PJ- I had looked at that ribbon cable before to see how everything linked up, but I didn't try pulling it and reseating it.  I will definitely try that out tonight.

I also updated your pic to show where the guy selling the machine was PULLING.  I don't know if they have any relation to the sound components or not (hoping NOT)..

[vintagegamer]

I really hope it's anything but needing solder..  I've learned that in life I have many gifts- and soldering ISN'T one of them.


Stay tuned...

[slycrel]

Sorry I missed this thread the other day.  I've had really good luck with the guys from http://www.actionpinball.com/.  Best of luck.

[vintagegamer]

Well I came home and disconnected the 2 cables I pointed out in the pic above, as well as the ribbon cable, and I reconnected them.  I don't have any sound as of yet, but I could swear I heard something faint when pushing the test switch button this time, like a series of faint beeps or something to that effect.  I will be trying again shortly when the wife gets home from work.

VINTAGEGAMER

[Q*Bert_OP]

Yes...just to confirm..... RED for the flippers.

black has a shorter life and is much stiffer, less bouncy, but shows little dirt build-up...

Yeah, it doesn't show the dirt much because it's too busy "creating it".   
(another source of the "black dust" besides any metal coil sleeves)

Bah...I meant that the black rubbers don't appear dirty through use

[Kevin Mullins]

Bah...I meant that the black rubbers don't appear dirty through use

Eh.... I knew what ya meant.
Just wanted to point something out that most people don't realize about the black rubber as it ages. 

[SirPeale]

Personal preference, they are the same except for color.

Black is usually 60 durometer, red is 45...black has a shorter life and is much stiffer, less bouncy, but shows little dirt build-up...red gets dirty very quickly...

In my experience, the reds self destruct quicker than blacks.  Maybe it was just a bad batch.

[vintagegamer]

Tried again last night after wife got home, removed 2 cables and replaced, removed ribbon cable and replaced, removed the upper left eprom from the speech card and noticed 1 pin was broken off- went to reseat and dropped it, and the machine basically ate it..     I powered up the machine again minus the missing eprom and no change..

So, I guess I'm waiting for the new speech card to arrive before troubleshooting any further!

[vintagegamer]

Interesting feedback from all- I'll put the red on and let you guys know if they start coming apart anytime soon..

[vintagegamer]

Thanks PJ- I figured there would be some taunts that would play while it was in "game over" mode, but didn't think to start a game.  And yep I did try wiggling the 2 wires.

The one pin on the eprom looked like it was bent prior to me pulling it- I've removed those before on my Ms Pac so that wasn't too new to me- the "new" part was doing them while it was vertical 

I'm not giving up tho, I'll keep trying diff stuff that you guys suggest, so keep the info coming!  Also, aside from the volume knob on the speech card and the one under the playfield, are there any others?

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

I went to make note of my game's S/N last night, and sadly there's not much left there to ID.  Is the game's S/N located anywhere else?  I know there's a Game ID # in one of the power up tests, but don't know if that # is the same as the machine # or not.

Thanks!

VINTAGEGAMER

[ChadTower]

Home use.  It won't.  They are built to stand more use than you'll put on it even in very heavy home use.

[Kevin Mullins]

In my experience, the reds self destruct quicker than blacks.  Maybe it was just a bad batch.

That is also very true.... they seem to be a bit softer to me, more rubber-band-ish, so I guess they deteriorate faster and then break kinda like an old rubber-band does.

[Kevin Mullins]

Dude, stop with all the threads already.  :-P

Seriously..... since you are asking questions about the same machine (which is totally cool) ... just have one thread...... and keep asking question on that thread. It will always bring it to the top of the list every time you or anyone else responds to it. But it's really hard to keep track of twenty or so threads about the same machine. Basically you could have started one thread and titled it "Williams Sorcerer Pinball Machine" and just continued to add questions and information to that ONE all inclusive thread.
 

PinballJim - refresh my memory whether the number that is "stamped" into the wood on both the headbox and the body is just the "model" or if that was also the serial ?

[vintagegamer]

Very sorry guys- it's just that I was concerned if I posted multiple questions in one thread, they wouldn't be responded to individually.  Anyway I will type more there.  Please just be sure to read my updates

[vintagegamer]

I have an update but will reply in my main Sorcerer thread..

[vintagegamer]

After taking advice from pinballjim and some others re: my sound problem, I wanted to provide an update: I actually started a game and wiggled the wires, and sadly nothing else happened.. BUT, I wanted to mention that when I disconnect the left cable completely, I can hear power cutting off from one of the speakers, and coming back on when it's reconnected.  And when I pull the right connector, I hear no current/power running at all anymore- total silence.  So, I'm hoping this helps to elude any concerns regarding broken solder or poor connections.  I'm still not hearing any sounds when hitting the "test" switch either, which is to the left of the left connector.  Is this maybe starting to elude to the possibility of blown speakers? 

I also forwarded the above details to the guy who has sold me the replacement speech card, and he provided the following update:

"The hum you hear is normal & it means the amplifier is working properly. The majority of sounds are made on the main cpu & the speech is made on the smaller board. The sound level between the sound & speech is controlled by a control on the speech board. If the speech board does not correct your problem then the problem would be on your main cpu. We can test & repair your cpu if required & take your old speech board as partial credit towards repairs. The Sorcerer sys 9 cpu boards are hard to find undamaged so repairs are your best option. Hope this info helps. Let us know when you receive your speech board & how you make out."

Please watch this thread for any other updates from me.

Thanks,

VINTAGEGAMER

[vintagegamer]

As for my question regarding the s/n location:

There should be several stickers on the cabinet with the serial number on them.

Please tell me WHERE-  inside the cabinet?  inside the main head panel?  underneath? 

UPDATE!  found the s/n, on the stickers PJ referred to- didn't realize they all had the same # on them.  Thanks!

 

VINTAGEGAMER

[SirPeale]

I'm gonna merge threads.  We're good about answering questions.

[Kevin Mullins]

Very sorry guys- it's just that I was concerned if I posted multiple questions in one thread, they wouldn't be responded to individually.  Anyway I will type more there.  Please just be sure to read my updates

No problem .... those that are willing to help will be more than happy to check for updates and new questions that you add to your thread. Most people on here on real good about that checking up on that sorta thing.

So ask away ......