ArcadeVGA with PC monitor (and running DOS)

[Anubis_au]

Hi

I've just been reading the Ultimarc website where it says about the ArcadeVGA, "TRY CLASSIC GAMES IN THEIR NATIVE RESOLUTIONS ON A PC SVGA MONITOR IN WINDOWS!"

I was under the impression the only way you can get native resolutions is by outputting at 15kHz, ideally to an arcade monitor, then second best is to television via SCART RGB, then component , then s-video etc etc.

So, am I understanding the Ultimarc website correctly? Is the ArcadeVGA able to output native arcade resolutions to a 31kHz PC monitor?

And, if it can, is this something it does only in Windows, or can the same be done in DOS?

After looking at various front ends, I'm still loving none as much as my old DOS advmenu/advmame that I used to run in my cab. The ArcadeVGA would seem ideal for a new build if I could connect it to a 15kHz screen (arcade monitor or tv).

But, since everyone likes keeping their options open, if I could run DOS advmenu/advmame, using an ArcadeVGA card, outputting native resolutions, to either a 15kHz monitor OR a 31kHz monitor, then that would be awesome (since I have a spare 19" CRT at home which could be put in a cab).

So, can the ArcadeVGA output native res in DOS to a 31kHz PC monitor? I think I may have gone wrong somewhere, but if it can I'll be buying one!!! (which I may yet do if I locate a cheap enough SCART 51cm TV). Any Aussies know where to score one in Sydney?

[Silver]

No, it can not.

It is in no way physically possible to display a 15Khz signal on a 31Khz monitor without modifying the signal (e.g. line-doubling or similar).

The Avga output has been tweaked (I believe) to make 15Khz games "look better" on a PC monitor. This has come up in other threads and believe the results are apparantly quite subjective.

I think ultimarc's products and the Avga are superb bits of kit, but I have to disagree with that piece of advertising.

I am also not that impressed with the picture comparision on that page (http://www.ultimarc.com/avgainf.html). The pics have completely different mame settings (D3d vs Ddraw etc..) which is going to make a difference on any card so is not very useful. What I'd like to see is a side by side of a AVGA at 31Khz vs a standard gfx card at 31Khz with identical mame settings.

[AndyWarne]

All the resolutions available on the card are available in DOS and Windows.
The point is, when using a PC monitor, there is no need to use hardware stretch nor D3D for all games which have a suitable resolution. So the picture comparisons are valid. The picture with the ordinary card shows the best way of displaying the game on that card in normal usage (ie without manually creating modelines in AdvMame etc), ie with D3D stretch enabled. I am not sure how this can be misleading since there is no comparison which is more favourable to the standard card unless you create modelines.   
I have tried to be as accurate as possible in the description of the use of a PC monitor and avoid stating that it gives a picture which is the same as an arcade monitor as it does not. What it does do though, which is particularly noticeable on older games is give a sharp, crisp picture owing to no re-sampling.
On the original game there would have been one monitor scan line per pixel. On a normal card in normal usage there are an arbitrary number of scanlines per pixel, 1.3, 1.4 , whatever.
The ability to do this on the card uses an in-built double-scan feature of the ATI chip.
Incidentally Powerstrip cannot use this feature which is why you cannot set up a resolution of, say, 256 X 256 in Powerstrip at 31Khz.
Another benefit is the ArcadeVGA cards locking to 60Hz vertical which reduces or eliminates tearing on horizontal scrollers.
Andy

[Anubis_au]

So, the ArcadeVGA does all the necessary tricks to upres, as it were,
the native resolutions of arcade games to output to 31kHz. And it does
it in both DOS and Windows.

Another question, if you happen to know the answer: what do you tell
advmenu/advmame the monitor device is? Do you tell the software you
have a 15kHz output, but connect to the 31kHz port (the DVI port, from
memory)? I guess where I am coming from is, the card can output
'native res' at 31kHz, but how would you program the software to get
this output?

[Silver]

The point is, when using a PC monitor, there is no need to use hardware stretch nor D3D for all games which have a suitable resolution. So the picture comparisons are valid. The picture with the ordinary card shows the best way of displaying the game on that card in normal usage (ie without manually creating modelines in AdvMame etc), ie with D3D stretch enabled. I am not sure how this can be misleading since there is no comparison which is more favourable to the standard card unless you create modelines.   
I have tried to be as accurate as possible in the description of the use of a PC monitor and avoid stating that it gives a picture which is the same as an arcade monitor as it does not. What it does do though, which is particularly noticeable on older games is give a sharp, crisp picture owing to no re-sampling.
On the original game there would have been one monitor scan line per pixel. On a normal card in normal usage there are an arbitrary number of scanlines per pixel, 1.3, 1.4 , whatever.
The ability to do this on the card uses an in-built double-scan feature of the ATI chip.
Incidentally Powerstrip cannot use this feature which is why you cannot set up a resolution of, say, 256 X 256 in Powerstrip at 31Khz.
Another benefit is the ArcadeVGA cards locking to 60Hz vertical which reduces or eliminates tearing on horizontal scrollers.
Andy

Andy, thanks for that, as it makes it clearer to me whats going on with the card.

I think the problem for me is that "best settings for a standard card" is quite subjective.

[shorthair]

Anubis: the avga obviates the need for Advmame. Personally, I'm not hot on the program, cos it's not easy to get it to utilise the screen area. From a novice's eye, though, a good piece of software.

[Anubis_au]

I was only looking at advmame cos thats what I used to run on my old cab, and back then, I didn't like any of the Windows FEs, and had a graphics card that worked with advmenu/advmame.

I'm realising now that with the arcadeVGA you can get native res out of command line MAME running through Windows XP, and have started investigating that route. Have downloaded MAME 1.14 and MaLa and will give it a go.

For me, it will come down to how I can congifurre the FE interface... I personally, don't want a description of year of manufacture, 4-way or 8-way, seeing a marquee, cabinet etc. I want a list of games, select one and MAME launches. I guess I just got used to my advmenu interface that way...

MaLa should do all that, and I can always post questions and read past posts wrt setting up and configuring.

Plus, I like MaLa's attract mode, and since I want to go transparent buttons...

But, still waiting for MikeDeuce to come back to get button discs...is anyone in touch with him? Knows when he is coming bac, and if he is taking orders? Want to get started on my project!!!

[shorthair]

Give it a go.  I just got GameEx sorta working and really like the interface - I like to be able to mouse control things and stuff - but like Atomic, too.

[Anubis_au]

Give it a go.  I just got GameEx sorta working and really like the interface - I like to be able to mouse control things and stuff - but like Atomic, too.

Have started investigating MaLa... seems to be configurable to do whatever you want.

I also downloaded command line MAME 0.77 (same version I used to use in my old advmenu/advmame setup) so can test FEs with my current romset.

[krick]

Another benefit is the ArcadeVGA cards locking to 60Hz vertical which reduces or eliminates tearing on horizontal scrollers.

Is this true for all versions of the ArcadeVGA or just the new PCI-E version?
Does it require a specific version of MAME?

I have the original ArcadeVGA (Radeon 7000) card and I see tearing in both horizontal and vertical scrolling games using MAME 106.

Turning on triple buffering fixes it for the most part but causes sound crackling in some games.

Unfortunately, I understand that triplebuffer is now broken in the lastest MAME (114).

[esaelectrionics]

im running arcadevga 2 ,the system boots into dos and is using glaunch FE ,
I have it set to triple buffers and it is totally smooth no tearing
and no jumping in scrolling in 15khz or 30khz.
The sound works fine with no crackling.
im using a sblive dos driver with DPMI installed also which i had heard conflicts with my soundcard.
Under windows XP/windows 98 I cannot get scrolling and ultra smooth screen update in any way, no matter what settings ive used,it is quite good under windows but dos is much smoother if setup well.
I am really pleased with the system,the colours are a little dull but apart from that its really running nice and solid.

im running mame 0.79 for dos at the moment.






 

[Thenasty]

I got a reply from Andy that ADVMAME is not COMPATIBLE with the NEW AVGA Cards (not supported). I could not get any MODELINES or just to start ADVV at all w/ ADvmenu/Advmame. 

Hopefully, if there will be a BIG SURPRISE from Andrea, that a NEW and IMPROVED Advemene/ADvmame and supports the NEW AVGA cards, I will also be in heaven like the rest of us (hey, I can dream can't I ? ) (HINT HINT ANDREA)     

[Anubis_au]

I thought advmame was no longer supported, thus no longer being updated for new MAME versions?

At any rate, after much research, I have gone with a PCI-E ArcadeVGA. I ordered the parts to build a new pc for it go in, and by the weekend I should have a testbed to test which OS/ FE / MAME version / settings I like for my setup. The home tv, although widescreen, accepts SCART RGB inputs. I have an old VGA cable and a SCART connector, so will rig up a cable to test the computer's output.

Exciting times ahead. Maybe its time I put a Project Announcements thread up...

[shorthair]

I'm still wondering why people are wanting to use Advmame with an avga?...they both do the same thing, except Advmame does more and supports many common cards. The avga is much less effor to get rolling, but Advmame has more options.

[ahofle]

Advmame has more options

I think you just answered your own question. 

[shorthair]

Hows' that?