Author Topic: RESOLVED need some input on a stolen control panel design... (Read 14951 times)

Gatsu · « **on:** March 31, 2015, 05:47:15 am »

So. I created some control panel artwork last year for MK3FAN here in the forum for his MK10 arcade machine project.

I was just on ebay and found someone selling the design. Now obviously Scorpion isn't mine. Its an official mkx render, but the panel design is mine, and I didn't create it with the intent to sell. I don't mind someone using it for their own personal use. But selling it isn't something I can condone.

Anything I can do about it? Or am I SOL?

MK Custom Control Panel

Le Chuck · « **Reply #1 on:** March 31, 2015, 05:53:24 am »

What did the seller say when you asked him to pull the sale?

Gatsu · « **Reply #2 on:** March 31, 2015, 05:55:00 am »

I just sent them a message. I just wanted to get some input in case they said "F*** you".

Dawgz Rule · « **Reply #3 on:** March 31, 2015, 06:39:17 am »

Looks like the seller ended the sale and pulled the item.

Gatsu · « **Reply #4 on:** March 31, 2015, 06:56:42 am »

Yep. He did thankfully. Guy made a "you don't own mk blah blah blah" type comment. Which is fine. No I don't own MK. I didn't design that panel to be sold freely by anyone who felt like they wanted to. I made it for personal use only.

I hadn't put anything online in a high enough resolution to make a decent print....so I know he was potentially selling crap quality of that print anyways.

Lesson learned...watermark the hell out of everything. lol.

Seemed like a nice guy overall though from our short conversation via ebay messages. Thankfully.

jdbailey1206 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 31, 2015, 08:51:41 am »

Doing what we do we are in a grey area. Most of the time no one here is out to make a huge financial gain. We all use 'copyrighted' material on our cabs but no one is selling anything in mass quantities. It sounds like that guy tried to see what he could sell without repercussions but it ended up that he was found with his hand in the proverbial cookie jar.

8BitMonk · « **Reply #6 on:** March 31, 2015, 09:56:44 am »

Marking your work with a Creative Commons license could afford some protection and potentially ward off a casual thief.

http://creativecommons.org/

Vigo · « **Reply #7 on:** March 31, 2015, 10:48:22 am »

This one isn't a gray area. One term to be familiar with is "Transformative Appropriation". It is the reasoning in law that states you can make your own art pulling from existing material and own it. It is why Andy Warhol was able to make a painting of Campbells soup cans and not run into copyright infringement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appropriation_%28art%29

Bottom Line, you have to have made a number of changes to the art for it to be transformative. If the design was merely pictures of Mario and Pac Man pasted down, then it wouldn't be yours. You obviously did a lot of unique changes from the render to make your art and in doing so it became solely your property. You don't need to own the rights to MK. That is YOUR art. Glad you were able to stop him with just a message.

pbj · « **Reply #8 on:** March 31, 2015, 10:50:12 am »

"Your" control panel was an illegal use of artwork you didn't own. Most rational people in your situation take the compliment and STFU.

Feel free to play wikipedia lawyer, though.

Le Chuck · « **Reply #9 on:** March 31, 2015, 11:30:52 am »

Quote from: pbj on March 31, 2015, 10:50:12 am

"Your" control panel was an illegal use of artwork you didn't own. Most rational people in your situation take the compliment and STFU.

Feel free to play wikipedia lawyer, though.

Now whose playing lawyer by tossing about words like "illegal" and "own"?

You seem feisty today Jimbo, whatzit?

8BitMonk · « **Reply #10 on:** March 31, 2015, 02:48:03 pm »

Quote from: pbj on March 31, 2015, 10:50:12 am

"Your" control panel was an illegal use of artwork you didn't own.

...that he did as a personal project with no intent to profit from.

Quote from: pbj on March 31, 2015, 10:50:12 am

Most rational people in your situation take the compliment and STFU.

Jim's hardly the person I'd use as a barometer for the actions of 'rational people'.

SavannahLion · « **Reply #11 on:** March 31, 2015, 04:08:50 pm »

Quote from: 8BitMonk on March 31, 2015, 02:48:03 pm

Quote from: pbj on March 31, 2015, 10:50:12 am
"Your" control panel was an illegal use of artwork you didn't own.

...that he did as a person project with no intent to profit from.

Quote from: pbj on March 31, 2015, 10:50:12 am
Most rational people in your situation take the compliment and STFU.

Jim's hardly the person I'd use as a barometer for the actions of 'rational people'.

Jim is human?

8BitMonk · « **Reply #12 on:** March 31, 2015, 05:14:10 pm »

Quote from: SavannahLion on March 31, 2015, 04:08:50 pm

Jim is human?

Yes, in the same way that taking something someone else created for personal use and trying to sell it on ebay is a compliment.

pbj · « **Reply #13 on:** March 31, 2015, 05:15:41 pm »

Meh, it's happened to me. I slapped together some "reproduction" cabinet stickers and stuck them on a Geocities website. Treasure Cove was selling them as "shop out decals" a week later, probably still does. I did a "backboard decal" for The Shadow and put it on the Pinball Rebel website. Couple years later, every Shadow on Ebay had one stuck in it. Similar has happened with several of "my" score cards, particularly for EMs.

There's two responses to this... one is you get butthurt and try to claim your collage of derivative artwork is somehow unique and demand, what, "acknowledgement"? "Compensation"? Give me a break.

The other response is you go, hey, that's kinda neat other people liked it. Maybe my attitude of putting that stuff out there freely will encourage others to do the same.

Plus you get to poke people that dislike you when you point out - "oh look, it's my old image..."

Gatsu · « **Reply #14 on:** March 31, 2015, 06:27:06 pm »

I wasn't seeking any kind of monetary compensation. Just that he removed the item in question because it was not created with the intent to resell or profit off of in any way. It was for a friend. No money/favors were exchanged for the artwork.

Sure its nice that someone acknowledges it as cool enough to try and sell it....I've had custom posters I've designed and had printed for friends literally stolen off of their walls before. Sure its cool someone liked it. But it wasn't theirs to take. And it's crappy of them to do.

And I didn't post it for public distribution it was originally intended for 1 friend. If anyone in the community wanted a copy to use for their personal project, sure. No problem if they asked. But the second it's put up and sold....that's where the line is drawn. If I wanted to make money off of it...I'm perfectly capable of selling it myself. But I know better because it's not 100% mine. Whether Andy Worhol was able to do it or not...I wouldn't want to fight Netherrealm or WB Games in court over it.

And any images that were found online of the cp artmwere not high enough resolution to make a nice print off of. So not only were they using what wasn't theirs, they were selling potentially ---smurfy--- quality.

opt2not · « **Reply #15 on:** March 31, 2015, 06:45:56 pm »

Anything that I post/share digitally I consider it to be "out there in the open", the art I consider valuable are those that I don't post.

I've always considered watermarking my works the ol' Mikonos way, but in the end I couldn't care less.
I mean, I never post anything near in a printable resolution anyway, but if someone wants to take my arts and put in the time to up-res, trace and bootleg 'em, then good fricken luck. That's a lot of work in itself.

jennifer · « **Reply #16 on:** April 01, 2015, 12:45:04 am »

So basically you want to decide the fate of somebody else's work, And want acknowledgement for your greatness and moral ethics?.... Allow me,

Gatsu · « **Reply #17 on:** April 01, 2015, 05:29:54 am »

Obviously you've misunderstood my point. No I don't want acknowledgement or any of that. I had a problem. I came here to ask for input because I know others on this forum have had this same problem. The problem worked itself out. I shared some information. Then my intentions were questioned, so I explained them as best as I could.

I'm sorry you interpreted all of that as me being some kind of egotistical attention seeking ---meecrob---.

But the situation has resolved itself. I thought I explained my side of it and just wanted share. That was all.

Generic Eric · « **Reply #18 on:** April 01, 2015, 10:28:36 am »

I know I missed the boat on interjecting my opinion here.

Is there a creative way to resolve this? How about doing some hidden art that is only visible at printing resolution? Like seeing detail on the dollar bill? Or perhaps in lieu of watermarking, a QR code that was integrated to the design. It could link to a site saying "If you see this message you purchased a low rez version of the art. Click here for a link to purchase a high rez version from my approved printers list." While its cool you posted that, maybe part of the solution is to team up with friendly printers who can print your art as you envisioned. I absolutely think that if the social media explosion on the internet happened before arcades were popular, at least the marquee would have a QR code by the copyright.

The solution is creativity. Like programmers that program alternate experiences for games that get cracked/hacked/leaked. Or maybe only posting the image in a mirrored version.

*shrug*

Skaliwagg · « **Reply #19 on:** April 01, 2015, 03:35:54 pm »

Gatsu I agree with you on this. Something you created should not be stolen and then sold for profit. Fairly simple concept that gets quite complicated when you dig deeper into the issue of intellectual property.

Quote from: jdbailey1206 on March 31, 2015, 08:51:41 am

Doing what we do we are in a grey area. Most of the time no one here is out to make a huge financial gain. We all use 'copyrighted' material on our cabs but no one is selling anything in mass quantities. It sounds like that guy tried to see what he could sell without repercussions but it ended up that he was found with his hand in the proverbial cookie jar.

You nailed it jdbailey1206. These images are copyrighted and making changes to the original doesn't change that. The "likeness" is also copyrighted. It also doesn't fall into the term 'art' but more what is called kitsch, however, both terms are vaguely defined. I personally consider anything that I visually like to be art, but art generally needs to have a higher meaning behind it. Side art or control panels are there to just look good (kitsch). Andy Warhol was brought up and the reason why Campbell's Soup Cans is not copyright infringement was his use of the image. He was not displaying "something pretty" but actually making a statement upon our mass produced culture (Art). If this was created by me, hung up behind my desk because I thought it was pretty it would now be put it in the realm of kitsch. Same "art" different meaning. If I now try to sell it I am selling upon and image created by Campbell. They own it.

It all comes down to is a lot of these images most companies don't care if they are used in small quantities; not much worry in this hobby. That doesn't mean we should use whatever images we find and try to sell them on ebay because the risk is low. Low risk doesn't mean it is right.

Anyways, bored at work so I thought I'd toss my two cents at the wall.

pbj · « **Reply #20 on:** April 01, 2015, 04:58:26 pm »

Your first post failed when you tried to talk about "right" with a den of IP thieves.

Lurk moar.

Vigo · « **Reply #21 on:** April 01, 2015, 05:01:28 pm »

Quote from: Skaliwagg on April 01, 2015, 03:35:54 pm

Anyways, bored at work so I thought I'd toss my two cents at the wall.

Welcome to the wall.

Let me just add a little legal guff, because I fell I need to say in a legal sense, the "non-kitschyness" of warhol's work really didn't determine if it was infringing or not.

(I should start using the word "kitsch" more. It is a good word.)

Legally, these are two different art pieces from two different artists:

You can read about Cariou vs. Prince case if you are as geeky about IP law as I tend to get.

Is called transformative vs derivative work. Simply put, you don't change enough and it is derivative work and is not entirely yours. You change enough and it is yours 100%, in an art ownership sense. The case above is one of those borderline cases, and normally transformative work has a bit more changed to it.

I feel comfortable saying that Gatsu's work is transformative. Gatsu legally owns that art and has every right to ask that guy to remove it.

There is a completely different issue on the IP on Scorpion himself, but it means nothing when selling the art by itself. Gatsu can sell the art, but he can't use any picture of Scorpion, even if drawn 100% himself, in order to profit selling on a video game, arcade machine, etc. That isn't the case in this incident, though.

opt2not · « **Reply #22 on:** April 01, 2015, 05:11:57 pm »

I don't think anyone should be too attached to artwork that isn't 100% theirs. I mean, the CP design's meat-and-potatoes were art pieces not really belonging to you in the first place. In fact, what exactly is completely your artwork, built from scratch? Judging by the image, the most you can probably claim is the blood splattering, and extruded control borders w/ bolts? I'd bet even the metal grating texture was lifted from a image search.

And while you arranged it and added your own shading touches, it still isn't completely yours to claim release rights to. IMHO, you're lucky the guy pulled it from ebay actually, 'cause he definitely didn't have to. At least, not by your order.

Vigo · « **Reply #23 on:** April 01, 2015, 05:35:13 pm »

Quote from: opt2not on April 01, 2015, 05:11:57 pm

I don't think anyone should be too attached to artwork that isn't 100% theirs. I mean, the CP design's meat-and-potatoes were art pieces not really belonging to you in the first place. In fact, what exactly is completely your artwork, built from scratch? Judging by the image, the most you can probably claim is the blood splattering, and extruded control borders w/ bolts? I'd bet even the metal grating texture was lifted from a image search.

As an artist, I'm sure you know how there is somehow a huge population with a blind eye turned on originality and effort. I commented on the legal issue above, and stand by my assessment, but I do agree, of stuff to get ripped off, this isn't the most original piece to be worked up about.

At the same time, I have designs I pooped out in 20 minutes, and probably looks like a million others of its kind, but I would still feel a bit slighted if somebody was selling it identically. Other things I have worked on for days straight and would be happy to share freely. Maybe I'm just weird like that, but I don't think any less of Gatsu for being upset about this.

Quote from: opt2not on April 01, 2015, 05:11:57 pm

And while you arranged it and added your own shading touches, it still isn't completely yours to claim release rights to. IMHO, you're lucky the guy pulled it from ebay actually, 'cause he definitely didn't have to. At least, not by your order.

I'm personally am more annoyed with these kind of sellers. Anyone selling artwork shouldn't be pulling this crap. If it is a simple Photoshop job, why can't they just recreate it themselves? I'm avoiding trying to sound like PBJ, but too many "art printers" are making a business off of exclusively selling ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- they don't own.

8BitMonk · « **Reply #24 on:** April 01, 2015, 06:40:50 pm »

Quote from: pbj on April 01, 2015, 04:58:26 pm

Your first post failed when you tried to talk about "right" with a den of IP thieves.

I assume you're including yourself in this den of thieves since you're using a likeness of Sonic the Hedgehog for your avatar. Your illegal usage is no different than Gatsu's or anyone elses.

Le Chuck · « **Reply #25 on:** April 01, 2015, 09:07:07 pm »

Konkey Dong = Transformative

leapinlew · « **Reply #26 on:** April 02, 2015, 11:15:39 am »

You can act within the confines of the law and still look pretty foolish. I'm with PBJ, the OP should have contacted the ebay seller without letting the general public know.

I created this artwork years ago for a member here, http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,65675

If I saw it for sale, or on machines, so what. I didn't create it to sell. Personally, I would have just moved along. Ain't got no time for that.

RandyT · « **Reply #27 on:** April 02, 2015, 12:00:21 pm »

Not my fight, but anyone who is interested in the legal protections with regard to use of videogame characters, should probably give this a read.

pbj · « **Reply #28 on:** April 02, 2015, 01:48:37 pm »

He took a poster that somebody else made, cropped it, slapped on some logos that aren't his, and wrote the word START using a font he didn't design.

8BitMonk · « **Reply #29 on:** April 02, 2015, 02:53:29 pm »

Quote from: pbj on April 02, 2015, 01:48:37 pm

He took a poster that somebody else made, cropped it, slapped on some logos that aren't his, and wrote the word START using a font he didn't design.

Spoken like someone with no true design experience. If it was so easy then why didn't the ebay seller just re-create it, then he'd have a hi-res version? Better yet, since it's only a 5 minute job why don't you re-create it and post it here for us to see.

The OP took the time to create a unique CP design for personal use which someone then took as-is and tried to sell, that's stealing, period. Equating the OP's use of any copyrighted material in his design, with no intention to sell it, to the ebay sellers actions is a false equivalence with zero merit.

Many large game companies actually condone and in fact encourage fan use of copyrighted materials as a way to promote the brand. Again, he never intended to profit from it, the ebay seller did.

The assertion that anyone would be flattered by someone stealing their time and talent for their own financial gain or 'hey it's happened to me before so it's no big deal' is ridiculous. The assertion that the design was 'simple' and has no value is ignorant of the value of good design. The ebay seller just snagged the artwork and tried to make a quick buck off both the talents of the OP AND the protected IP.

Bottom line, the ebay seller is wrong both morally and legally and the OP's frustrations are completely warranted.

jennifer · « **Reply #30 on:** April 02, 2015, 03:15:19 pm »

That's the most ridicules, convoluted statement ever to grace these forums.... The Ebay guy has just as much rights to it as the OP.

Malenko · « **Reply #31 on:** April 02, 2015, 03:18:51 pm »

Quote from: jennifer on April 02, 2015, 03:15:19 pm

That's the most ridicules, convoluted statement ever to grace these forums.... The Ebay guy has just as much rights to it as the OP.

Why? Did the eBay guy make it?

Generic Eric · « **Reply #32 on:** April 02, 2015, 03:20:13 pm »

Quote from: jennifer on April 02, 2015, 03:15:19 pm

That's the most ridicules, convoluted statement ever to grace these forums.... The Ebay guy has just as much rights to it as the OP.

You've only been registered since 2010, you can't possibly know that.

Also, you are wrong. I can't scan someone elses art and sell it as my own.

8BitMonk · « **Reply #33 on:** April 02, 2015, 03:22:47 pm »

Quote from: jennifer on April 02, 2015, 03:15:19 pm

That's the most ridicules, convoluted statement ever to grace these forums.... The Ebay guy has just as much rights to it as the OP.

You're right, they both have the same right to it which is...wait for it... neither of them can legally sell it. Thanks for proving my point Jennifer.

jennifer · « **Reply #34 on:** April 02, 2015, 03:35:29 pm »

No he didn't make it, Just took it and manipulated it for his use, just like the OP did, I"d even go so far to say Epay guy was doing a favor to the community (minus the high res quality) by not only trying to make it available for everyone, but putting his neck on the line @ the presses.... G/Eric:, In some cases yes you could, (freeware, abondonware) That's not core of this problem however, Its the lifelong entitlement mentality.

Generic Eric · « **Reply #35 on:** April 02, 2015, 03:40:52 pm »

Quote from: jennifer on April 02, 2015, 03:35:29 pm

I"d even go so far to say Epay guy was doing a favor to the community (minus the high res quality) by not only trying to make it available for everyone, but putting his neck on the line @ the presses....

Can't let this go.

No one that has collected art to sell as prints has done a favor greater than they could have made by hosting the file. There are several collections of art that were sold to online printers that I find questionable. Any arcade art behind a paywall makes me wonder of its origins.

If we are going to talk about favors, charging above cost of materials and actual shipping is not a favor.

pbj · « **Reply #36 on:** April 02, 2015, 03:43:26 pm »

jennifer · « **Reply #37 on:** April 02, 2015, 03:56:19 pm »

Those art collections you speak of (for the most part) Suck and are unworthy of reprints, Due mostly to limited P/s skills, and some high horse OP thinking if I just change this a bit then its mine ,.... A hosted file of a turd pile does not warrant favors.

8BitMonk · « **Reply #38 on:** April 02, 2015, 04:30:17 pm »

Quote from: jennifer on April 02, 2015, 03:56:19 pm

A hosted file of a turd pile does not warrant favors.

opt2not · « **Reply #39 on:** April 02, 2015, 04:30:21 pm »

Quote from: 8BitMonk on April 02, 2015, 02:53:29 pm

Spoken like someone with no true design experience. If it was so easy then why didn't the ebay seller just re-create it, then he'd have a hi-res version? Better yet, since it's only a 5 minute job why don't you re-create it and post it here for us to see.

hmmm, 5 mins? Naw, more like 10 mins for anyone with basic knowledge of Photoshop. Most of the work is in googling the images. Arrangement, cutting and pasting, adding drop-shadows and overlay textures doesn't take a long time to do at all.


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Author Topic: *RESOLVED* need some input on a stolen control panel design... (Read 14951 times)

Author Topic: RESOLVED need some input on a stolen control panel design... (Read 14951 times)