SNES upscale

[vandale]

Hi all,

Will I get a better picture from my PAL snes if I use a composite to HDMI upscaler rather than connecting the composite direct to my TV. My 50inch Panasonic Plasma TH-P50UT50 doesn't have svideo.

Thanks

[Ginsu Victim]

Composite is what it is. I doubt there's anything you could do to make it look any better.

[05SRT4]

16 bit graphics and a large Plasma will never look good.

[Ginsu Victim]

You're better off running an emulator if you want it to look cleaner.

[Howard_Casto]

This is a two decade long argument. 

The thing is, "better" is subjective.  The games are meant to have a degree of blurriness imho... it blends all the cross-hatching and various other shading tricks together making them look as intended.  Now s-video would definitely look better because it would clean up some of the color bleed, particularly the red, but there isn't a converter I can think of that's going to convert s-vid into anything usable and composite isn't THAT bad considering the age of the system. 

Now if you are talking about using scart 2 convert it to something you would get a sharper (which again, imho is NOT better) image, but isn't the PAL snes the system that ran the games too slow because Nintendo didn't bother to convert the timing on the games?

[opt2not]

You're better off running an emulator if you want it to look cleaner.

Cheaper yes, but there are ways to get it looking cleaner. But you have to pay for it.

16 bit graphics and a large Plasma will never look good.

I beg to differ, but it is subjective.
I was once a nay-sayer, till I got my hands on an XRGB-Framemeister mini. It wasn't cheap at all, but I was really satisfied with the outcome. Turn on scanlines, and output 1080p to my 55" plasma, from an RGB source and voila!
SNES (NTSC - via RGB SCART):






NES (front-loader with viletim's NESRGB mod):






BUT, don't get me wrong, I do also enjoy using my Sony PVM CRT's for gaming as well:









Bottom-line, output RGB... it's clean, noiseless video that can be upscaled nicely to modern TV's if you want.

[05SRT4]

Oh snap that does look really good. I am going to look in that that.
Thanks

[yotsuya]

Oh snap that does look really good.

TESTIFY!

[Louis Tully]

.

[05SRT4]

Amazon has a couple still up for grabs. You were not kidding about not being cheap though.

[Vigo]

Amazon has a couple still up for grabs. You were not kidding about not being cheap though.

Yikes! I don't think I even paid that much for my 50" Panasonic plasma TV. Yeah, I'll stick with emulation to get console games on my TV, it comes in at the same quality.

[opt2not]

Amazon has a couple still up for grabs. You were not kidding about not being cheap though.

Yikes! I don't think I even paid that much for my 50" Panasonic plasma TV. Yeah, I'll stick with emulation to get console games on my TV, it comes in at the same quality.

Whoa, that is bit more than I paid. I bought mine off the forums $150 less than that, and I believe you can import them from Japan for around that price too.
It's definitely the top-of-the-line upscaler there is out there, worth every penny IMO.

@Vigo:  You lucky 'merrcan's, and your cheap tech! I miss Fry's in Cali

Emulation is totally fine though.

But for me, I've collected games since I started playing them BITD (I still have all my original consoles and most games), so I wanted to use my authentic console gear with newer displays and the best possible video quality.  It kind of feels good for the soul, with all the emulating we do around here with Mame. 

[Howard_Casto]

 I get the idea that you are using consoles with rgb/scart out for this correct?

That kind of kills it for us guys in the states without modding all of our consoles. 

I need to research this a bit.  I'm guessing with the prevalence of micro pcs at this point I could create some sort of solution that adds post-processing effects to a video-in signal. 

[Vigo]

But for me, I've collected games since I started playing them BITD (I still have all my original consoles and most games), so I wanted to use my authentic console gear with newer displays and the best possible video quality.  It kind of feels good for the soul, with all the emulating we do around here with Mame. 

I hear ya. I wish I had a collection worthy of more than the occasional dust-off. It does feel good though.

And yeah, we have plenty of cheap tech. A lot of this stuff is not even as cheap in it's country of origin.

[opt2not]

I get the idea that you are using consoles with rgb/scart out for this correct?

That kind of kills it for us guys in the states without modding all of our consoles. 

I need to research this a bit.  I'm guessing with the prevalence of micro pcs at this point I could create some sort of solution that adds post-processing effects to a video-in signal.

Well north American Genesis Model 1 and 2's, and SNES's already put out native RGB, you just got to get the appropriate SCART cable , and of course a TV or device that takes it. Or get a cheap SCART to Component adapter off ebay.
Same goes for the Master System and Sega Saturn, native output without needing to modify it. But most of the others like NES and N64 are unfortunately lacking in the native RGB dept, without having to hack in some kind of mod.

I read through this site put together by one of the guys off the shmups forum: http://retrorgb.com/systems.html
Lots of great information of achieving the ultimate video output for your old systems.

Right now I'm trying to figure out how to get clean video from GBA games. IMO, the GBA was the last of the great 2D consoles, and there are a lot of amazing games for that system that would be awesome to have upscaled on a big screen.  My choices are modding an actual GBA, though the controller would be awkward, or go through the Gamecube's GBA Player via those pricey component cables... which is another $200 investment.   

[Louis Tully]

.

[Howard_Casto]

Not sure where you are getting your component cables, but back in the day I had a xbox/gamecube component combo cable that I bought for 20 bucks.  Monster cables are a complete and total rip-off if that's what you are getting at.  I think the player averages around 50 bucks on the ebay. 

I'll look into the snes scart conversion.... I wasn't aware that it was actually hooked up in a north-American snes. 

As for sega consoles, I'm really not concerned with making their crappy graphics look sharper so I can see just how crappy they are. 

[opt2not]

Not sure where you are getting your component cables, but back in the day I had a xbox/gamecube component combo cable that I bought for 20 bucks.  Monster cables are a complete and total rip-off if that's what you are getting at.  I think the player averages around 50 bucks on the ebay. 

The official Gamecube cables are the real deal when it comes to 480p output. There isn't any other way you can get 480p out of the GC.  The official cable hosts an internal decoder IC (I believe nintendo's proprietary)  that goes beyond what regular Component cable does. There was a limited release, and I think you originally could only buy them from the Nintendo shop.

The gamecube monster cables you're thinking of were most likely just outputting 480i through component. Which wouldn't give you that nice clean 480p signal. Otherwise those would be as expensive too!

[Howard_Casto]

I didn't exactly look at the picture with a magnifying glass or anything but the tv said "480p" when I hooked it up.  The cable had a giant blob on the end of it, so I think a chip was included.  I dunno... I might still have it in a junk drawer somewhere so I'll see if I can find it. 

[opt2not]

Yeah I'd be interested in seeing these. As far as I know monster didn't put out component cables for the GC, only S-video and Composite.

[Howard_Casto]

Well this was one of those ebay "slow boat from China" deals.  I don't even know if you could find one anymore. 

[rCadeGaming]

OP, you should check out this page for info on upscaling old systems:

http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/

Bottom line though is that opt2not's set-up with the X-RGB Mini is really optimal for classic gaming on a flat panel (though I'd be all over that PVM ).  Starting with RGB from the console really is the bare minimum, whatever you do.

The other thing to consider is the input lag on your TV.  Is it suitable for gaming in the first place?  I couldn't find a rating for your exact model, but if it's similar to a TC-P50UT50, it's probably around 40ms, which isn't too bad, but it's not super great either.

http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/

But most of the others like NES and N64 are unfortunately lacking in the native RGB dept, without having to hack in some kind of mod.

Actually, systems requiring modification are the minority.  Master System, Genesis, SNES, Saturn, PSX, DC, PS2, XBox, Xbox 360, and PS3 can all output RGB with the right cabling (including in the US).  The mods for PC-Engine/TG-16 and N64 are pretty easy, NES got a bit easier with the release of the NESRGB kit, and modding a Gamecube component/RGB cable isn't too bad aside from the expense.  I'm not sure about the Wii, because I have yet to deal with it.  Also, I have no idea about the current gen, but I don't know if they have any 240p content anyway, HDMI is probably best at all times.

The official Gamecube cables are the real deal when it comes to 480p output. There isn't any other way you can get 480p out of the GC.  The official cable hosts an internal decoder IC (I believe nintendo's proprietary)  that goes beyond what regular Component cable does. There was a limited release, and I think you originally could only buy them from the Nintendo shop.

The gamecube monster cables you're thinking of were most likely just outputting 480i through component. Which wouldn't give you that nice clean 480p signal. Otherwise those would be as expensive too!

The Gamecube's extra video port outputs digital video.  The IC in the Nintendo component/RGB cables is a digital to analog converter chip.  The cable Howard used must have had a similar IC or else I don't think it could output any useful analog video at all.

[Howard_Casto]

It's a matter of opinion really.  RGB is prevalent, except on Nintendo systems, and IMHO they are the only consoles worth keeping.

[rCadeGaming]

SNES has good games but Genesis doesn't?  I think that's a little closed-minded.  There are great exclusives on both.

[Howard_Casto]

Not really.  It's all about understanding realistically what consoles/arcade hardware the best versions of games are on.

Think of all the best Genesis games.  Now subtract the ones that have a superior arcade port available in mame or elsewhere.  Now subtract the ones that were also available on the snes, which had better graphics and sound.  Your list suddenly got really short.

Also like I mentioned, the genesis was really inferior graphically due to the low color palette... it's one of those consoles that actually might benefit from a bit of blur with all the dithering used in a lot of the games. 

I recently decided to get into classic sega collecting to see how the other half lived back in the day... the answer is not really well. 

[rCadeGaming]

Graphically superior?  Give me a break.  Next are you going to say that the NES is not worthwhile at all just because the SNES was technically superior?

Just a few of the excellent games only available on Genesis:
Contra: Hard Corps
Gunstar Heroes
Landstalker
M.U.S.H.A.
Thunder Force II
Thunder Force III
Lightening Force (Thunder Force IV)
Rocket Knight Adventures

If I had pick one or the other, it would probably be the SNES, but here's the thing... I DON'T.  There's no reason at all for that kind of black-and-white thinking, it's just foolish.  Just about every console has at least a few great exclusives.  Why not enjoy them?

[opt2not]

Naw, he's comparing the SNES to the Genesis. Or Master System to the NES. Though, the MS did suck pretty bad.

Earthworm Jim was actually a better game on Genesis than the SNES.  Graphically, they were able to to push more sprites on screen that than the SNES counterpart.  Same goes for any of the sports titles. For some reason they just looked and played better on the Genesis. Perhaps the games that required high sprite-counts just ran better on the Genesis due to the lower pixel depth.
Hardware-wise they are not that different.

Then there's the exclusives titles: 
SNES' Shadowrun vs. Genesis'.  Not the same game, and neither of them are better than the other. They're both great IMO.

I agree with rCadeGaming about not shunning the other consoles due to console-preference...it should be about the software not about the hardware, and all consoles have their "gems".  Shoot, look at the 3DO, that was a crappy system and it had the best version of Road Rash, Return Fire, and it had Star Control!

The Gamecube's extra video port outputs digital video.  The IC in the Nintendo component/RGB cables is a digital to analog converter chip.  The cable Howard used must have had a similar IC or else I don't think it could output any useful analog video at all.

Hey, you're an RGB junkie like me, what do you do about GBA gaming?  Do you just stick to the handheld, or do you have a fancy way to get the GBA or GBC for that matter on the big screen?

[eds1275]

Not to mention genesis' realistic idea of censorship. Aladdin actually used his sword in the genesis version, and Simba had a "mauling" attack after you got to the later levels.

[DaveMMR]

I tried hooking up consoles to an LCD and I hated it. Even if I got that $500 device to clean it up, I still will be denying myself "Duck Hunt", "Hogan's Alley", etc. (Yeah, I know I never play them but I like to know that I CAN if I wanted.) And although probably negligible, lag is a small concern. At the end of the day, an old CRT is not a bad thing to hang on to and is probably best for old consoles (if not going the emulation route).

If you can find an old Commodore 1702 monitor, you can even get S-Video (though it requires a simple cable hack/splice to output to two RCA inputs (Chroma and Luma). It's small, but it looks good and won't take up much space.

Think of all the best Genesis games.  Now subtract the ones that have a superior arcade port available in mame or elsewhere.  Now subtract the ones that were also available on the snes, which had better graphics and sound.  Your list suddenly got really short.

Also like I mentioned, the genesis was really inferior graphically due to the low color palette... it's one of those consoles that actually might benefit from a bit of blur with all the dithering used in a lot of the games. 

I recently decided to get into classic sega collecting to see how the other half lived back in the day... the answer is not really well. 

To say ALL SNES games are better than Genesis is incorrect. There are some titles that are actually superior on the Genesis. Granted, not many (Mortal Kombat, Alladdin and ThunderForce III* come to mind.) Also, there are actually many great exclusives you'd be missing out on. My only issue with the Genesis is that I inevitably end up with a glut of sports game for which I care not a whim. (Though some people do like them, so YMMV.)

Heck, I even kinda-sorta like Sewer Shark for the Sega CD. It's so over-the-top bad that it's enjoyable.

Give the Genesis (and CRT TV's) a chance. 

(*released as Thunder Spirits on SNES; basing my Genesis preference solely on the music.)

[Vigo]

If you can find an old Commodore 1702 monitor, you can even get S-Video (though it requires a simple cable hack/splice to output to two RCA inputs (Chroma and Luma). It's small, but it looks good and won't take up much space.

I downright love that monitor. About 15 years ago, I had a local tv producer try to buy mine off of me for a couple hundred bucks because it far was superior to the professional editing monitors they were using. Those things were apparently pure gold in terms of studio equipment back in the day.

I think I used something like this to split out to Chroma and Luma on mine.

[DaveMMR]

I downright love that monitor. About 15 years ago, I had a local tv producer try to buy mine off of me for a couple hundred bucks because it far was superior to the professional editing monitors they were using. Those things were apparently pure gold in terms of studio equipment back in the day.

I think I used something like this to split out to Chroma and Luma on mine.

Yeah, I'm really glad I decided not to sell mine on eBay years ago. It works quite well. I'm not using it full-time now, instead running a 27" CRT I have while I have the space. But I'm keeping it handy for when I need it.

The cable you linked to would work but I think you may have to utilize an S-Video to RCA adapter on the single end.  Conversely, you can hack the end off of an S-Video cable and splice-in two RCA inputs. For regular composite, you can use the front inputs. And if you have to use it with non-modded consoles with RF hookups, a VCR in between the console and monitor works fine.

Just remembered I have a picture of it running Ocarina of time.

[Howard_Casto]

You are putting words into my mouth Dave.  I never said that there weren't good Genesis games or that there weren't genesis ports that were better than the snes (for the record MK is not one of those cases though.... you can keep your blood and "faster frame rate", I'll enjoy the unmolested sprites and full audio tyvm).  I just said that when you make a list of must-have genesis titles, it's a pretty short list. 

I mean with the snes I can think of at least 30+ games that I can't play anywhere else and more importantly, I actually want to play.  With the Genesis, there's comix zone, and the Streets of Rage Series (which is good btw, but is a poor man's final fight), and for me at least... that's about it.  There are lots of other great titles on the system, but they are almost all arcade ports... I just use mame for that.  Like you said, there are a lot of sports titles... which I could give two squirts about. 

I keep a crt around in case I want to play duck hunt (I'm frikkin awesome at duck hunt for some unknown reason) but honestly it's heavy and I don't have room for the big 27 inchers that I prefer to play on.... so "meh" I'll use a lcd for the time being. 

You genesis guys can get mad all you want, but I can't really justify keeping a console hooked up and bothering with rgb out and what-not to play maybe 8 games tops.  So please don't take offense when somebody gives a list of consoles that all support rgb out when the ones that matter most to me (Nintendo consoles) don't for the most part. 

And just for the record, again, you can get mad about it, but the Genesis was graphically inferior in almost every way.  It had a low palette, it couldn't display as many sprites on the screen at once, it couldn't display sprites as large as the snes without speed down issues, ect.  And the sound was just terrible.  The point I was making, was a lot of games were identical ports, save the graphics, well the graphics were better on the snes and I most likely already own the snes version, so why would I bother with the genesis?  Every time I try to make that point, some Sega fanboy points out the 5 games where that wasn't the case.  I get it, there are some rare gems on the Genesis.  There are some rare gems on the 3do as well, but I'm not forking over 300 bucks to play em. 

[DaveMMR]

You are putting words into my mouth Dave.

Fair enough. I reread and see I paraphrased a tad poorly.

(for the record MK is not one of those cases though.... you can keep your blood and "faster frame rate", I'll enjoy the unmolested sprites and full audio tyvm).

I'm about to be severely flamed by many, I'm sure, but to me, Mortal Kombat's only redeeming factor was the over-the-top violence. Nintendo neutering it really made it show the overall blandness therein. (I'm not a hardcore fighting-game fan, however, so I'm aware my opinion holds little, if any, weight.)

[opt2not]

For the record, I'm not a fanboy of any system -- I'm a fan of software. If the system has a few games exclusive, or plays better than others, then sure I'll invest in it.

I have bought systems for 2 or 3 games before. The Wii was my last case -- Sports Resort (for the golf), Donkey Kong Country Returns, and the Metriod Prime Trilogy were my catalysts for purchasing.

Which is why I haven't invested in the new consoles, I haven't found at least 3 games I'm exciting to play on them yet.

I don't believe one should cut out a system because of the hardware. It shouldn't be about the tech, it should be about the games.

[Vigo]

A lot of Genesis games I felt were inferior simply because I did not like the genesis controller. Most games were limited to 3 buttons, and when they moved to 6 buttons, half the games created were still scared to require all the buttons. Not to mention, the six button layout is kinda lame if you only have your thumb to push the buttons. I loved Street Fighter II on the Genesis, though.

I have been enjoying playing Genesis games on the arcade machine. Buttons translate perfectly, feels really natural. I actually often opt for a Genesis version above the SNES version on many games because the controls simply translate better.

[Howard_Casto]

I agree completely, but you apparently aren't listening.  It is all about the games.  There aren't any games.  I'm sure for you it's a different case, but we are talking about for me. 

Dave people make waaay too big a deal in regards to the censorship of MK.  First off, it was only MK... MK 2, 3 and UMK3 were completely uncensored.  Who wants to play MK 1 anymore anyway?  It's like going back to Street Fighter I.  Secondly all they did was turn the blood gray and alter a single finishing move (Kano's heart rip).  People quickly found out how to turn the blood red again and ungimp a lot of the censorship via the game genie, which EVERYBODY had at the time. 

Now there were a few gameplay issues with the snes version, a strange glitch with the sweep kick hit boxes comes to mind, but the Genesis version was just so awful it almost reminded me of back in the day when a game would get ported to both the NES and SNES.... the genesis port was almost a NES version, especially in the sound dept, which imho was the best part of MK games.  The Genesis version had a whole different set of gameplay issues though, most notably the timing was off (too fast) because many of the frames of animation had to be removed.

You are right, a lot of MK's appeal was the finishers, but even more so were the graphics.  You've got to remember that back then having digitized actors was the most realistic looking graphics to date.  The snes version had that going for it... the Genesis... not so much.  I can't be the only one to prefer the snes version.... it was a million+ seller, the best selling cart of that year. 

[opt2not]

I agree completely, but you apparently aren't listening.  It is all about the games.  There aren't any games.  I'm sure for you it's a different case, but we are talking about for me. 

What kinda games do you like?

[Howard_Casto]

Everything but sports games.  The only thing sega had going for it were it's arcade titles and sports games. 

Vigo... in response to the horrible genesis controller, I found a solution to that.  The controllers that they include with the plug-n-play sets, they are a lot smaller, so it's easier to roll around on that 6 button layout.  The d-pad is better as well.  I think you can get em at dx.com.  I've been messing around with them and while they definitely aren't as sturdy as the originals, they feel better, or at least they do to me. 

[opt2not]

Everything but sports games.  The only thing sega had going for it were it's arcade titles and sports games. 

I have a hard time believing someone who is a fan of most types of games, not being able to find anything on the sega systems they'd enjoy.

Again, I say I'm not a console fanboy, but I'd argue that the Genesis has a lot of great exclusive titles to offer:

Beat-em-ups:  Streets of Rage series - as an arcade guy, you can't deny SoR's validity in this genre -- definitely a must-play, and it has deeper gameplay than the Final Fight series!
Shooters: Thunder Force IV - probably the best in the series
Run-n-gun shooters: Contra Hard Corps - great addition to the series, and it holds up to par with Contra III
Platformers: World of Illusion Starring Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck - incredible looking, and playing game. Beats out any of the Mickey platformers on the Nintendo systems, easily
RPG: Shining Force series - though re-released on the Saturn, this was a series that went "full-out-epic" ala Final Fantasy vein
Action-RPG:  Beyond Oasis - Beautiful style, and the gameplay rivals with the Secret of Mana series

I'm not saying go out and get a Genesis, but I'm just not sure you're aware that there are some great games on that system.

To just blanket-state there is nothing good on that system is just...a bit closed-minded, don't you think?

Try it out on emulator man, these games can't be overlooked in gaming history. They're too good. 

[DaveMMR]

Dave people make waaay too big a deal in regards to the censorship of MK.  First off, it was only MK... MK 2, 3 and UMK3 were completely uncensored.  Who wants to play MK 1 anymore anyway?  It's like going back to Street Fighter I.  Secondly all they did was turn the blood gray and alter a single finishing move (Kano's heart rip).  People quickly found out how to turn the blood red again and ungimp a lot of the censorship via the game genie, which EVERYBODY had at the time. 

You are right, a lot of MK's appeal was the finishers, but even more so were the graphics.  You've got to remember that back then having digitized actors was the most realistic looking graphics to date.  The snes version had that going for it... the Genesis... not so much.  I can't be the only one to prefer the snes version.... it was a million+ seller, the best selling cart of that year.

First of all. They didn't gimp ONE fatality.  Kano, Sub-Zero, Johnny Cage and Liu Kang were bowdlerized. Secondly, they changed the blood to sweet - it was more than just a recolor, it was a completely different animation. And it wasn't called a "Fatality", it was called a finishing move. Only finishing moves that ended in a skeleton remained. (Also I remembered the Game Genie code - it recolored the sweat red. Hardly a substitute.)

Speaking of sales: Do you know why MKII, 3 and UMK3 were released uncensorsed? Because their version of Mortal Kombat was outsold by the Genesis version by something like 4 to 1 and they finally realized it's better to move software than to be moral guardians. There was a "special" content warning on their box for MKII - this was immediately before the ESRB (Sega had their own ratings system in place at the time.) 

I know it's old and who wants to play it nowadays, but let's stop defending Nintendo for their very, very poor decision to censor Mortal Kombat. If it's the version you prefer that's all well and good, but sales figures do not lie. It was a bad move. Silly as it sounds, lack of blood was, for many, the deal-breaker for the SNES.