SNES upscale

[vandale]

Hi all,

Will I get a better picture from my PAL snes if I use a composite to HDMI upscaler rather than connecting the composite direct to my TV. My 50inch Panasonic Plasma TH-P50UT50 doesn't have svideo.

Thanks

[Ginsu Victim]

Composite is what it is. I doubt there's anything you could do to make it look any better.

[05SRT4]

16 bit graphics and a large Plasma will never look good.

[Ginsu Victim]

You're better off running an emulator if you want it to look cleaner.

[Howard_Casto]

This is a two decade long argument. 

The thing is, "better" is subjective.  The games are meant to have a degree of blurriness imho... it blends all the cross-hatching and various other shading tricks together making them look as intended.  Now s-video would definitely look better because it would clean up some of the color bleed, particularly the red, but there isn't a converter I can think of that's going to convert s-vid into anything usable and composite isn't THAT bad considering the age of the system. 

Now if you are talking about using scart 2 convert it to something you would get a sharper (which again, imho is NOT better) image, but isn't the PAL snes the system that ran the games too slow because Nintendo didn't bother to convert the timing on the games?

[opt2not]

You're better off running an emulator if you want it to look cleaner.

Cheaper yes, but there are ways to get it looking cleaner. But you have to pay for it.

16 bit graphics and a large Plasma will never look good.

I beg to differ, but it is subjective.
I was once a nay-sayer, till I got my hands on an XRGB-Framemeister mini. It wasn't cheap at all, but I was really satisfied with the outcome. Turn on scanlines, and output 1080p to my 55" plasma, from an RGB source and voila!
SNES (NTSC - via RGB SCART):






NES (front-loader with viletim's NESRGB mod):






BUT, don't get me wrong, I do also enjoy using my Sony PVM CRT's for gaming as well:









Bottom-line, output RGB... it's clean, noiseless video that can be upscaled nicely to modern TV's if you want.

[05SRT4]

Oh snap that does look really good. I am going to look in that that.
Thanks

[yotsuya]

Oh snap that does look really good.

TESTIFY!

[Louis Tully]

.

[05SRT4]

Amazon has a couple still up for grabs. You were not kidding about not being cheap though.

[Vigo]

Amazon has a couple still up for grabs. You were not kidding about not being cheap though.

Yikes! I don't think I even paid that much for my 50" Panasonic plasma TV. Yeah, I'll stick with emulation to get console games on my TV, it comes in at the same quality.

[opt2not]

Amazon has a couple still up for grabs. You were not kidding about not being cheap though.

Yikes! I don't think I even paid that much for my 50" Panasonic plasma TV. Yeah, I'll stick with emulation to get console games on my TV, it comes in at the same quality.

Whoa, that is bit more than I paid. I bought mine off the forums $150 less than that, and I believe you can import them from Japan for around that price too.
It's definitely the top-of-the-line upscaler there is out there, worth every penny IMO.

@Vigo:  You lucky 'merrcan's, and your cheap tech! I miss Fry's in Cali

Emulation is totally fine though.

But for me, I've collected games since I started playing them BITD (I still have all my original consoles and most games), so I wanted to use my authentic console gear with newer displays and the best possible video quality.  It kind of feels good for the soul, with all the emulating we do around here with Mame. 

[Howard_Casto]

 I get the idea that you are using consoles with rgb/scart out for this correct?

That kind of kills it for us guys in the states without modding all of our consoles. 

I need to research this a bit.  I'm guessing with the prevalence of micro pcs at this point I could create some sort of solution that adds post-processing effects to a video-in signal. 

[Vigo]

But for me, I've collected games since I started playing them BITD (I still have all my original consoles and most games), so I wanted to use my authentic console gear with newer displays and the best possible video quality.  It kind of feels good for the soul, with all the emulating we do around here with Mame. 

I hear ya. I wish I had a collection worthy of more than the occasional dust-off. It does feel good though.

And yeah, we have plenty of cheap tech. A lot of this stuff is not even as cheap in it's country of origin.

[opt2not]

I get the idea that you are using consoles with rgb/scart out for this correct?

That kind of kills it for us guys in the states without modding all of our consoles. 

I need to research this a bit.  I'm guessing with the prevalence of micro pcs at this point I could create some sort of solution that adds post-processing effects to a video-in signal.

Well north American Genesis Model 1 and 2's, and SNES's already put out native RGB, you just got to get the appropriate SCART cable , and of course a TV or device that takes it. Or get a cheap SCART to Component adapter off ebay.
Same goes for the Master System and Sega Saturn, native output without needing to modify it. But most of the others like NES and N64 are unfortunately lacking in the native RGB dept, without having to hack in some kind of mod.

I read through this site put together by one of the guys off the shmups forum: http://retrorgb.com/systems.html
Lots of great information of achieving the ultimate video output for your old systems.

Right now I'm trying to figure out how to get clean video from GBA games. IMO, the GBA was the last of the great 2D consoles, and there are a lot of amazing games for that system that would be awesome to have upscaled on a big screen.  My choices are modding an actual GBA, though the controller would be awkward, or go through the Gamecube's GBA Player via those pricey component cables... which is another $200 investment.   

[Louis Tully]

.

[Howard_Casto]

Not sure where you are getting your component cables, but back in the day I had a xbox/gamecube component combo cable that I bought for 20 bucks.  Monster cables are a complete and total rip-off if that's what you are getting at.  I think the player averages around 50 bucks on the ebay. 

I'll look into the snes scart conversion.... I wasn't aware that it was actually hooked up in a north-American snes. 

As for sega consoles, I'm really not concerned with making their crappy graphics look sharper so I can see just how crappy they are. 

[opt2not]

Not sure where you are getting your component cables, but back in the day I had a xbox/gamecube component combo cable that I bought for 20 bucks.  Monster cables are a complete and total rip-off if that's what you are getting at.  I think the player averages around 50 bucks on the ebay. 

The official Gamecube cables are the real deal when it comes to 480p output. There isn't any other way you can get 480p out of the GC.  The official cable hosts an internal decoder IC (I believe nintendo's proprietary)  that goes beyond what regular Component cable does. There was a limited release, and I think you originally could only buy them from the Nintendo shop.

The gamecube monster cables you're thinking of were most likely just outputting 480i through component. Which wouldn't give you that nice clean 480p signal. Otherwise those would be as expensive too!

[Howard_Casto]

I didn't exactly look at the picture with a magnifying glass or anything but the tv said "480p" when I hooked it up.  The cable had a giant blob on the end of it, so I think a chip was included.  I dunno... I might still have it in a junk drawer somewhere so I'll see if I can find it. 

[opt2not]

Yeah I'd be interested in seeing these. As far as I know monster didn't put out component cables for the GC, only S-video and Composite.

[Howard_Casto]

Well this was one of those ebay "slow boat from China" deals.  I don't even know if you could find one anymore. 

[rCadeGaming]

OP, you should check out this page for info on upscaling old systems:

http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/

Bottom line though is that opt2not's set-up with the X-RGB Mini is really optimal for classic gaming on a flat panel (though I'd be all over that PVM ).  Starting with RGB from the console really is the bare minimum, whatever you do.

The other thing to consider is the input lag on your TV.  Is it suitable for gaming in the first place?  I couldn't find a rating for your exact model, but if it's similar to a TC-P50UT50, it's probably around 40ms, which isn't too bad, but it's not super great either.

http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/

But most of the others like NES and N64 are unfortunately lacking in the native RGB dept, without having to hack in some kind of mod.

Actually, systems requiring modification are the minority.  Master System, Genesis, SNES, Saturn, PSX, DC, PS2, XBox, Xbox 360, and PS3 can all output RGB with the right cabling (including in the US).  The mods for PC-Engine/TG-16 and N64 are pretty easy, NES got a bit easier with the release of the NESRGB kit, and modding a Gamecube component/RGB cable isn't too bad aside from the expense.  I'm not sure about the Wii, because I have yet to deal with it.  Also, I have no idea about the current gen, but I don't know if they have any 240p content anyway, HDMI is probably best at all times.

The official Gamecube cables are the real deal when it comes to 480p output. There isn't any other way you can get 480p out of the GC.  The official cable hosts an internal decoder IC (I believe nintendo's proprietary)  that goes beyond what regular Component cable does. There was a limited release, and I think you originally could only buy them from the Nintendo shop.

The gamecube monster cables you're thinking of were most likely just outputting 480i through component. Which wouldn't give you that nice clean 480p signal. Otherwise those would be as expensive too!

The Gamecube's extra video port outputs digital video.  The IC in the Nintendo component/RGB cables is a digital to analog converter chip.  The cable Howard used must have had a similar IC or else I don't think it could output any useful analog video at all.

[Howard_Casto]

It's a matter of opinion really.  RGB is prevalent, except on Nintendo systems, and IMHO they are the only consoles worth keeping.

[rCadeGaming]

SNES has good games but Genesis doesn't?  I think that's a little closed-minded.  There are great exclusives on both.

[Howard_Casto]

Not really.  It's all about understanding realistically what consoles/arcade hardware the best versions of games are on.

Think of all the best Genesis games.  Now subtract the ones that have a superior arcade port available in mame or elsewhere.  Now subtract the ones that were also available on the snes, which had better graphics and sound.  Your list suddenly got really short.

Also like I mentioned, the genesis was really inferior graphically due to the low color palette... it's one of those consoles that actually might benefit from a bit of blur with all the dithering used in a lot of the games. 

I recently decided to get into classic sega collecting to see how the other half lived back in the day... the answer is not really well. 

[rCadeGaming]

Graphically superior?  Give me a break.  Next are you going to say that the NES is not worthwhile at all just because the SNES was technically superior?

Just a few of the excellent games only available on Genesis:
Contra: Hard Corps
Gunstar Heroes
Landstalker
M.U.S.H.A.
Thunder Force II
Thunder Force III
Lightening Force (Thunder Force IV)
Rocket Knight Adventures

If I had pick one or the other, it would probably be the SNES, but here's the thing... I DON'T.  There's no reason at all for that kind of black-and-white thinking, it's just foolish.  Just about every console has at least a few great exclusives.  Why not enjoy them?

[opt2not]

Naw, he's comparing the SNES to the Genesis. Or Master System to the NES. Though, the MS did suck pretty bad.

Earthworm Jim was actually a better game on Genesis than the SNES.  Graphically, they were able to to push more sprites on screen that than the SNES counterpart.  Same goes for any of the sports titles. For some reason they just looked and played better on the Genesis. Perhaps the games that required high sprite-counts just ran better on the Genesis due to the lower pixel depth.
Hardware-wise they are not that different.

Then there's the exclusives titles: 
SNES' Shadowrun vs. Genesis'.  Not the same game, and neither of them are better than the other. They're both great IMO.

I agree with rCadeGaming about not shunning the other consoles due to console-preference...it should be about the software not about the hardware, and all consoles have their "gems".  Shoot, look at the 3DO, that was a crappy system and it had the best version of Road Rash, Return Fire, and it had Star Control!

The Gamecube's extra video port outputs digital video.  The IC in the Nintendo component/RGB cables is a digital to analog converter chip.  The cable Howard used must have had a similar IC or else I don't think it could output any useful analog video at all.

Hey, you're an RGB junkie like me, what do you do about GBA gaming?  Do you just stick to the handheld, or do you have a fancy way to get the GBA or GBC for that matter on the big screen?

[eds1275]

Not to mention genesis' realistic idea of censorship. Aladdin actually used his sword in the genesis version, and Simba had a "mauling" attack after you got to the later levels.

[DaveMMR]

I tried hooking up consoles to an LCD and I hated it. Even if I got that $500 device to clean it up, I still will be denying myself "Duck Hunt", "Hogan's Alley", etc. (Yeah, I know I never play them but I like to know that I CAN if I wanted.) And although probably negligible, lag is a small concern. At the end of the day, an old CRT is not a bad thing to hang on to and is probably best for old consoles (if not going the emulation route).

If you can find an old Commodore 1702 monitor, you can even get S-Video (though it requires a simple cable hack/splice to output to two RCA inputs (Chroma and Luma). It's small, but it looks good and won't take up much space.

Think of all the best Genesis games.  Now subtract the ones that have a superior arcade port available in mame or elsewhere.  Now subtract the ones that were also available on the snes, which had better graphics and sound.  Your list suddenly got really short.

Also like I mentioned, the genesis was really inferior graphically due to the low color palette... it's one of those consoles that actually might benefit from a bit of blur with all the dithering used in a lot of the games. 

I recently decided to get into classic sega collecting to see how the other half lived back in the day... the answer is not really well. 

To say ALL SNES games are better than Genesis is incorrect. There are some titles that are actually superior on the Genesis. Granted, not many (Mortal Kombat, Alladdin and ThunderForce III* come to mind.) Also, there are actually many great exclusives you'd be missing out on. My only issue with the Genesis is that I inevitably end up with a glut of sports game for which I care not a whim. (Though some people do like them, so YMMV.)

Heck, I even kinda-sorta like Sewer Shark for the Sega CD. It's so over-the-top bad that it's enjoyable.

Give the Genesis (and CRT TV's) a chance. 

(*released as Thunder Spirits on SNES; basing my Genesis preference solely on the music.)

[Vigo]

If you can find an old Commodore 1702 monitor, you can even get S-Video (though it requires a simple cable hack/splice to output to two RCA inputs (Chroma and Luma). It's small, but it looks good and won't take up much space.

I downright love that monitor. About 15 years ago, I had a local tv producer try to buy mine off of me for a couple hundred bucks because it far was superior to the professional editing monitors they were using. Those things were apparently pure gold in terms of studio equipment back in the day.

I think I used something like this to split out to Chroma and Luma on mine.

[DaveMMR]

I downright love that monitor. About 15 years ago, I had a local tv producer try to buy mine off of me for a couple hundred bucks because it far was superior to the professional editing monitors they were using. Those things were apparently pure gold in terms of studio equipment back in the day.

I think I used something like this to split out to Chroma and Luma on mine.

Yeah, I'm really glad I decided not to sell mine on eBay years ago. It works quite well. I'm not using it full-time now, instead running a 27" CRT I have while I have the space. But I'm keeping it handy for when I need it.

The cable you linked to would work but I think you may have to utilize an S-Video to RCA adapter on the single end.  Conversely, you can hack the end off of an S-Video cable and splice-in two RCA inputs. For regular composite, you can use the front inputs. And if you have to use it with non-modded consoles with RF hookups, a VCR in between the console and monitor works fine.

Just remembered I have a picture of it running Ocarina of time.

[Howard_Casto]

You are putting words into my mouth Dave.  I never said that there weren't good Genesis games or that there weren't genesis ports that were better than the snes (for the record MK is not one of those cases though.... you can keep your blood and "faster frame rate", I'll enjoy the unmolested sprites and full audio tyvm).  I just said that when you make a list of must-have genesis titles, it's a pretty short list. 

I mean with the snes I can think of at least 30+ games that I can't play anywhere else and more importantly, I actually want to play.  With the Genesis, there's comix zone, and the Streets of Rage Series (which is good btw, but is a poor man's final fight), and for me at least... that's about it.  There are lots of other great titles on the system, but they are almost all arcade ports... I just use mame for that.  Like you said, there are a lot of sports titles... which I could give two squirts about. 

I keep a crt around in case I want to play duck hunt (I'm frikkin awesome at duck hunt for some unknown reason) but honestly it's heavy and I don't have room for the big 27 inchers that I prefer to play on.... so "meh" I'll use a lcd for the time being. 

You genesis guys can get mad all you want, but I can't really justify keeping a console hooked up and bothering with rgb out and what-not to play maybe 8 games tops.  So please don't take offense when somebody gives a list of consoles that all support rgb out when the ones that matter most to me (Nintendo consoles) don't for the most part. 

And just for the record, again, you can get mad about it, but the Genesis was graphically inferior in almost every way.  It had a low palette, it couldn't display as many sprites on the screen at once, it couldn't display sprites as large as the snes without speed down issues, ect.  And the sound was just terrible.  The point I was making, was a lot of games were identical ports, save the graphics, well the graphics were better on the snes and I most likely already own the snes version, so why would I bother with the genesis?  Every time I try to make that point, some Sega fanboy points out the 5 games where that wasn't the case.  I get it, there are some rare gems on the Genesis.  There are some rare gems on the 3do as well, but I'm not forking over 300 bucks to play em. 

[DaveMMR]

You are putting words into my mouth Dave.

Fair enough. I reread and see I paraphrased a tad poorly.

(for the record MK is not one of those cases though.... you can keep your blood and "faster frame rate", I'll enjoy the unmolested sprites and full audio tyvm).

I'm about to be severely flamed by many, I'm sure, but to me, Mortal Kombat's only redeeming factor was the over-the-top violence. Nintendo neutering it really made it show the overall blandness therein. (I'm not a hardcore fighting-game fan, however, so I'm aware my opinion holds little, if any, weight.)

[opt2not]

For the record, I'm not a fanboy of any system -- I'm a fan of software. If the system has a few games exclusive, or plays better than others, then sure I'll invest in it.

I have bought systems for 2 or 3 games before. The Wii was my last case -- Sports Resort (for the golf), Donkey Kong Country Returns, and the Metriod Prime Trilogy were my catalysts for purchasing.

Which is why I haven't invested in the new consoles, I haven't found at least 3 games I'm exciting to play on them yet.

I don't believe one should cut out a system because of the hardware. It shouldn't be about the tech, it should be about the games.

[Vigo]

A lot of Genesis games I felt were inferior simply because I did not like the genesis controller. Most games were limited to 3 buttons, and when they moved to 6 buttons, half the games created were still scared to require all the buttons. Not to mention, the six button layout is kinda lame if you only have your thumb to push the buttons. I loved Street Fighter II on the Genesis, though.

I have been enjoying playing Genesis games on the arcade machine. Buttons translate perfectly, feels really natural. I actually often opt for a Genesis version above the SNES version on many games because the controls simply translate better.

[Howard_Casto]

I agree completely, but you apparently aren't listening.  It is all about the games.  There aren't any games.  I'm sure for you it's a different case, but we are talking about for me. 

Dave people make waaay too big a deal in regards to the censorship of MK.  First off, it was only MK... MK 2, 3 and UMK3 were completely uncensored.  Who wants to play MK 1 anymore anyway?  It's like going back to Street Fighter I.  Secondly all they did was turn the blood gray and alter a single finishing move (Kano's heart rip).  People quickly found out how to turn the blood red again and ungimp a lot of the censorship via the game genie, which EVERYBODY had at the time. 

Now there were a few gameplay issues with the snes version, a strange glitch with the sweep kick hit boxes comes to mind, but the Genesis version was just so awful it almost reminded me of back in the day when a game would get ported to both the NES and SNES.... the genesis port was almost a NES version, especially in the sound dept, which imho was the best part of MK games.  The Genesis version had a whole different set of gameplay issues though, most notably the timing was off (too fast) because many of the frames of animation had to be removed.

You are right, a lot of MK's appeal was the finishers, but even more so were the graphics.  You've got to remember that back then having digitized actors was the most realistic looking graphics to date.  The snes version had that going for it... the Genesis... not so much.  I can't be the only one to prefer the snes version.... it was a million+ seller, the best selling cart of that year. 

[opt2not]

I agree completely, but you apparently aren't listening.  It is all about the games.  There aren't any games.  I'm sure for you it's a different case, but we are talking about for me. 

What kinda games do you like?

[Howard_Casto]

Everything but sports games.  The only thing sega had going for it were it's arcade titles and sports games. 

Vigo... in response to the horrible genesis controller, I found a solution to that.  The controllers that they include with the plug-n-play sets, they are a lot smaller, so it's easier to roll around on that 6 button layout.  The d-pad is better as well.  I think you can get em at dx.com.  I've been messing around with them and while they definitely aren't as sturdy as the originals, they feel better, or at least they do to me. 

[opt2not]

Everything but sports games.  The only thing sega had going for it were it's arcade titles and sports games. 

I have a hard time believing someone who is a fan of most types of games, not being able to find anything on the sega systems they'd enjoy.

Again, I say I'm not a console fanboy, but I'd argue that the Genesis has a lot of great exclusive titles to offer:

Beat-em-ups:  Streets of Rage series - as an arcade guy, you can't deny SoR's validity in this genre -- definitely a must-play, and it has deeper gameplay than the Final Fight series!
Shooters: Thunder Force IV - probably the best in the series
Run-n-gun shooters: Contra Hard Corps - great addition to the series, and it holds up to par with Contra III
Platformers: World of Illusion Starring Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck - incredible looking, and playing game. Beats out any of the Mickey platformers on the Nintendo systems, easily
RPG: Shining Force series - though re-released on the Saturn, this was a series that went "full-out-epic" ala Final Fantasy vein
Action-RPG:  Beyond Oasis - Beautiful style, and the gameplay rivals with the Secret of Mana series

I'm not saying go out and get a Genesis, but I'm just not sure you're aware that there are some great games on that system.

To just blanket-state there is nothing good on that system is just...a bit closed-minded, don't you think?

Try it out on emulator man, these games can't be overlooked in gaming history. They're too good. 

[DaveMMR]

Dave people make waaay too big a deal in regards to the censorship of MK.  First off, it was only MK... MK 2, 3 and UMK3 were completely uncensored.  Who wants to play MK 1 anymore anyway?  It's like going back to Street Fighter I.  Secondly all they did was turn the blood gray and alter a single finishing move (Kano's heart rip).  People quickly found out how to turn the blood red again and ungimp a lot of the censorship via the game genie, which EVERYBODY had at the time. 

You are right, a lot of MK's appeal was the finishers, but even more so were the graphics.  You've got to remember that back then having digitized actors was the most realistic looking graphics to date.  The snes version had that going for it... the Genesis... not so much.  I can't be the only one to prefer the snes version.... it was a million+ seller, the best selling cart of that year.

First of all. They didn't gimp ONE fatality.  Kano, Sub-Zero, Johnny Cage and Liu Kang were bowdlerized. Secondly, they changed the blood to sweet - it was more than just a recolor, it was a completely different animation. And it wasn't called a "Fatality", it was called a finishing move. Only finishing moves that ended in a skeleton remained. (Also I remembered the Game Genie code - it recolored the sweat red. Hardly a substitute.)

Speaking of sales: Do you know why MKII, 3 and UMK3 were released uncensorsed? Because their version of Mortal Kombat was outsold by the Genesis version by something like 4 to 1 and they finally realized it's better to move software than to be moral guardians. There was a "special" content warning on their box for MKII - this was immediately before the ESRB (Sega had their own ratings system in place at the time.) 

I know it's old and who wants to play it nowadays, but let's stop defending Nintendo for their very, very poor decision to censor Mortal Kombat. If it's the version you prefer that's all well and good, but sales figures do not lie. It was a bad move. Silly as it sounds, lack of blood was, for many, the deal-breaker for the SNES.

[northerngames]

the official gamexcube component cable is the one and only way of getting real progressive out of the console there was never another company to use there built in converter in the cable itself.

it's the one and only reason they maintain a value is so people can play it on there today tv instead of that old dusty thing in the garage attic type thing lol.

snes nes master system genesis tg-16 and alike straight up rgb on scrart or a 15k arcade monitor is the best display possible on any of the classic console's.

if you have a pal console get a quality scart tv or arcade monitor and be done with it.

or you tap into the rgb right off the chip leg's in the console and run them either to a break out cable or plug them in or straight wire them to a cba/ega/vga conveter on ebay for about $30.00.

that's your best and only option for true clear display on classic tv and monitors or if you want to go modern with hd tv'sand upscaled then use the converter box and tap the console's rgb hv chip legs.

the rest are just fillers and still not going to display even to to the above on anything else no matter what they cost you.

[DaveMMR]

I'm going off a skimming of Wikipedia, but playing Gamecube games on a Wii with component cables (easier to find) will give you the same results, no? 

[opt2not]

I'm going off a skimming of Wikipedia, but playing Gamecube games on a Wii with component cables (easier to find) will give you the same results, no?

Yes, but not GBA/GB/GBC games via the Gameboy Player.

[pbj]

My recollection was that the SNES version of MK1 looked better but the Genesis one played better.

Also agree that the only thing SEGA consoles had going for them were the arcade games, which is EXACTLY why I bought:

Sega Master System (Space Harrier, Shinobi)
Genesis (DJ Boy, Golden Axe
Sega CD (Final Fight)
32X (Virtua Racer / Fighting)
Saturn (Daytona USA, Virtua Cop, Virtua Fighter 2 bundled in... best legal $150 purchase ever....)
Dreamcast (Crazy Taxi and the rest)

With MAME, there's no reason to revisit those ports, but they were solid and fun for their time.


 

[Howard_Casto]

Dave people make waaay too big a deal in regards to the censorship of MK.  First off, it was only MK... MK 2, 3 and UMK3 were completely uncensored.  Who wants to play MK 1 anymore anyway?  It's like going back to Street Fighter I.  Secondly all they did was turn the blood gray and alter a single finishing move (Kano's heart rip).  People quickly found out how to turn the blood red again and ungimp a lot of the censorship via the game genie, which EVERYBODY had at the time. 

You are right, a lot of MK's appeal was the finishers, but even more so were the graphics.  You've got to remember that back then having digitized actors was the most realistic looking graphics to date.  The snes version had that going for it... the Genesis... not so much.  I can't be the only one to prefer the snes version.... it was a million+ seller, the best selling cart of that year.

First of all. They didn't gimp ONE fatality.  Kano, Sub-Zero, Johnny Cage and Liu Kang were bowdlerized. Secondly, they changed the blood to sweet - it was more than just a recolor, it was a completely different animation. And it wasn't called a "Fatality", it was called a finishing move. Only finishing moves that ended in a skeleton remained. (Also I remembered the Game Genie code - it recolored the sweat red. Hardly a substitute.)

Speaking of sales: Do you know why MKII, 3 and UMK3 were released uncensorsed? Because their version of Mortal Kombat was outsold by the Genesis version by something like 4 to 1 and they finally realized it's better to move software than to be moral guardians. There was a "special" content warning on their box for MKII - this was immediately before the ESRB (Sega had their own ratings system in place at the time.) 

I know it's old and who wants to play it nowadays, but let's stop defending Nintendo for their very, very poor decision to censor Mortal Kombat. If it's the version you prefer that's all well and good, but sales figures do not lie. It was a bad move. Silly as it sounds, lack of blood was, for many, the deal-breaker for the SNES.

Hold up their chief!  Man a lot of you guys seem to be reading imaginary things that I did NOT write.  In what way did I defend Nintendo's decision in any way?  I didn't.  I just said it wasn't that big a deal, and rest assured it wasn't.  By the time people were done bitching and moaning about MK 1 not having blood, MK II was released and it was a moot point.  Not a big deal at all.

Just for the record though, I can understand their decision to censor it.  I don't agree with it, but it was perfectly understandable at the time.  As you mentioned the ESRB wasn't in place yet.  Congress was shaking it's fists in anger and the industry as a whole was at a loss in terms of how to proceed.  Sega turned out the "winner" in that decision but congress could have easily done something bat-crap crazy like pull all the carts until a decision was reached.... stranger things have happened.  As soon as the ESRB was starting to become established, Nintendo was on board. 

[Howard_Casto]

Everything but sports games.  The only thing sega had going for it were it's arcade titles and sports games. 

I have a hard time believing someone who is a fan of most types of games, not being able to find anything on the sega systems they'd enjoy.

Again, I say I'm not a console fanboy, but I'd argue that the Genesis has a lot of great exclusive titles to offer:

Beat-em-ups:  Streets of Rage series - as an arcade guy, you can't deny SoR's validity in this genre -- definitely a must-play, and it has deeper gameplay than the Final Fight series!
Shooters: Thunder Force IV - probably the best in the series
Run-n-gun shooters: Contra Hard Corps - great addition to the series, and it holds up to par with Contra III
Platformers: World of Illusion Starring Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck - incredible looking, and playing game. Beats out any of the Mickey platformers on the Nintendo systems, easily
RPG: Shining Force series - though re-released on the Saturn, this was a series that went "full-out-epic" ala Final Fantasy vein
Action-RPG:  Beyond Oasis - Beautiful style, and the gameplay rivals with the Secret of Mana series

I'm not saying go out and get a Genesis, but I'm just not sure you're aware that there are some great games on that system.

To just blanket-state there is nothing good on that system is just...a bit closed-minded, don't you think?

Try it out on emulator man, these games can't be overlooked in gaming history. They're too good. 

*sigh* Another person that can't be bothered to read my replies.  I already mentioned SOR.  I like it, I have them, but then again, final fight is better imho. 
Contra Hard Corps is pretty great, that's why I bought the updated version on xbox live. 
Sorry, I don't like the Disney platformers... they begin and end with Ducktales. 
I don't really care for RPGs... I mean depending upon the individual title I might play it, but I'm definitely not getting a console just for it. 

And again, you just aren't listening.  I never said there weren't good games on the Genesis there just aren't ENOUGH good games.  Shoot a lot of your best Genesis games were re-released for the dreamcast, which I do have, and more recently the pc. 

[opt2not]

*sigh* Another person that can't be bothered to read my replies.  I already mentioned SOR.  I like it, I have them, but then again, final fight is better imho. 
Contra Hard Corps is pretty great, that's why I bought the updated version on xbox live. 
Sorry, I don't like the Disney platformers... they begin and end with Ducktales. 
I don't really care for RPGs... I mean depending upon the individual title I might play it, but I'm definitely not getting a console just for it. 

*sigh*  More like -- another person having trouble with the interpretation and the validity of your arguments. You've got it all twisted.
Like, your statement that you like everything but sports games: now you're saying you don't like RPG's...
So not everything but sports games then.

Or when you said you have a Monster Component cable for the Gamecube. Either you're a liar, or you are just ignorant, both of which doesn't contribute to the conversation.

Now take a page from your own book, you think I was saying the SoR is a better than Final Fight. I was just saying the gameplay is deeper, which is just fact. There are much more options when fighting, like the grab system for instance. Or the dash-attacks, or back-attacks. Heck, even Battletoads has a deeper gameplay than Final Fight...you remember Final Fight is older than the two right? Is it better? Subjective.
But that's not the issue. The issue is whether or not the Genesis has ENOUGH games to merit owning it.

Please define "ENOUGH".  Because ENOUGH to me is a handful of games in each genre, of which it clearly possesses if you could look past your horse-blinders.

And again, you just aren't listening.  I never said there weren't good games on the Genesis there just aren't ENOUGH good games.  Shoot a lot of your best Genesis games were re-released for the dreamcast, which I do have, and more recently the pc. 

What now?
Please enlighten me and name all the best games on Genesis that were re-released on the Dreamcast.  Because I'd love to know!
The last time I checked the DC was based on Naomi hardware that handles mostly 3D graphics. A majority of which were arcade ports.
 

[opt2not]

the official gamexcube component cable is the one and only way of getting real progressive out of the console there was never another company to use there built in converter in the cable itself.

Thanks northerngames, that's what I was saying, but some folks tend to be hard-headed.

From my understanding, I can mod the cable for RGB output, and connect it to a SCART header.  We have a conversation going on at the shmups forum that we're talking about modding it so that I don't completely destroy the ability to use the component output; since these cables are expensive and kinda rare...using a small switch installed on the DAC-side, to go from component to RGB output, along with one of these to convert it to SCART:

I'd have to feed the composite sync to it from the analogue port, via the A/V cable, and connect the audio lines externally.
So 6 RCA connections (R, G, B, C-Sync, R&L audio). 
I'm thinking I can mod this little converter as well, and add a couple audio lines straight to the SCART pinout, because when I connect it to the framemiester-mini, I have the audio passing through the HDMI-out for my set-up.

Now it comes down to finding an affordable GC Component cable. 

[Howard_Casto]

So let me get this straight.  Because I don't like the games you do I'm twisted?  Because I acquired a cable (that I NEVER said was a monster cable, and I've corrected you TWICE in regards to that, so it shows just how much you are reading my replies) that you don't personally know about I'm a liar? 

You have a lot of damn nerve lecturing me on anything. 

I was going to post a list of genesis games I do like, which is a pretty short list, but seeing as how you are only interested on forcing your own rather twisted view of what I should like on me, I won't bother. 

I never get to contribute to console discussions around here because the console forum is filled with fanboys.  You can't talk about a console realistically because if you say anything negative about it people will come out of the woodwork yelling bloody murder even if you blatantly say "well it's ok if you prefer it but it's not for me".  With the upmost respect some of you need to get out of the 90's.  Sega lost... they are out of the hardware business because they lost, they struggle to make AAA titles anymore because they lost.  You don't go from the #2 gaming hardware manufacturer in the world to barely being able to pay your bills via a series of highly successful consoles, you do it via releasing a series of second best consoles. 

[opt2not]

Twisted:
1. You say: there are no good games on sega consoles.
2. I say: well what kinda games do you like?
3. You say: I like everything except sports games.
4. I say: well there are these games that are comparibly good on the genesis.
5. You say a bunch of excuses to why you don't think they're valid, and how you don't like another genre of game that isn't sports -- contradicting #3
6. I think: hmmm, questionable credibility with this one.

Ok I admit I misread you monster  cable statement. For that I apologize.  But you did say you had a $20 component combo cable in-lue of me saying it the official component cables are the real deal for the top quality display. So there ain't no way I'm going to be able to find a $20 cable with the goal of top-of-the-line video quality. So that invalidates your comment as something useful to this thread.

But now you're talking about the who won/who lost bs the gaming market went through in the 90's? Ain't no one bringing that stuff up but you!

I look at all old games as a whole, an over arching history of the gaming market, not hanging onto that old Nintendo vs Sega crap. Im agnostic to the consoles those games are on, which allows me to appreciate the software aspect of them...NOT the hardware.

It is what it is man. I'm done arguing over this with you. I'm happy to back down off this because it's pointless. I'd rather talk about getting good quality video signals onto CRT's or LCD's via upscalers, than go through more back-and-forth with subjective matters that just end up spinning our wheels, ad nauseum.

Good day to you, sir.

[rCadeGaming]

Hey, you're an RGB junkie like me, what do you do about GBA gaming?  Do you just stick to the handheld, or do you have a fancy way to get the GBA or GBC for that matter on the big screen?

I use a GB Player; I modded a Gamecube component cable for RGB.  480p goes to an Extron Emotia to downscale to 240p, that goes to RGB to component transcoder, then to the TV.

I sometimes just play on the handheld itself too.  I prefer the feel of the original GBA over the SP, so I've been looking at modding it for a backlight:

http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?46224-Most-effective-GBA-backlight-mods

http://gbatemp.net/threads/gba-backlight-agb-001.328487/

At the end of the day, an old CRT is not a bad thing to hang on to and is probably best for old consoles (if not going the emulation route)

It is the best for old consoles even with the emulation route.

the official gamexcube component cable is the one and only way of getting real progressive out of the console there was never another company to use there built in converter in the cable itself.

Thanks northerngames, that's what I was saying, but some folks tend to be hard-headed.

I was just saying that you can't get 480i component from Gamecube without a DAC chip either.  So either his cable could do 480p or it didn't exist.  I just don't think there would be one that could do 480i component only.

From my understanding, I can mod the cable for RGB output, and connect it to a SCART header.  We have a conversation going on at the shmups forum that we're talking about modding it so that I don't completely destroy the ability to use the component output; since these cables are expensive and kinda rare...using a small switch installed on the DAC-side, to go from component to RGB output, along with one of these to convert it to SCART...

I'd have to feed the composite sync to it from the analogue port, via the A/V cable, and connect the audio lines externally.
So 6 RCA connections (R, G, B, C-Sync, R&L audio). 
I'm thinking I can mod this little converter as well, and add a couple audio lines straight to the SCART pinout, because when I connect it to the framemiester-mini, I have the audio passing through the HDMI-out for my set-up.

Now it comes down to finding an affordable GC Component cable. 

I've done something similar.  This is my Gamecube A/V dongle I modded from a component cable and a standard composite cable:



It outputs either RGB or component depending on how you set those dip switches on the digital video connector (top right).  The composite cable is just for the audio, I removed the composite video wire.  The other end is a DB-15HD ("VGA") connector which I can connect directly to my switching system, or to a component + audio adapter I made.

You don't have to use the composite video as sync though, you can pull H and V sync from the DAC, and they're active in both 15 and 31kHz RGB.  That does require more wires than the component cable contains though, I had to replace the cable coming from the digital video connector.  I'm not sure if it would be worth the extra work for you.  I know your X-RGB Mini is expecting composite sync, but you could try combining the H and V sync just by running them through 1N4148 diodes, whereas composite video requires an LM1881 to strip to composite sync.  It depends if the X-RGB Mini is picky about just feeding it composite video directly as sync.

An official Nintendo Gamecube D-Terminal cable (Japanese connector type) has the same DAC chip as well as enough wires as-is to carry H and V sync, but it's rarer and more expensive.  If you watch eBay for a while you can get a component cable for around $100, that's what I had to do.

Check out the third link in my signature for more about my RGB setup, including the Emotia and the Gamecube cable.

[DaveMMR]

Hold up their chief!  Man a lot of you guys seem to be reading imaginary things that I did NOT write.  In what way did I defend Nintendo's decision in any way? I didn't.  I just said it wasn't that big a deal, and rest assured it wasn't.  By the time people were done bitching and moaning about MK 1 not having blood, MK II was released and it was a moot point.  Not a big deal at all.

Just for the record though, I can understand their decision to censor it.  I don't agree with it, but it was perfectly understandable at the time.  As you mentioned the ESRB wasn't in place yet.  Congress was shaking it's fists in anger and the industry as a whole was at a loss in terms of how to proceed.  Sega turned out the "winner" in that decision but congress could have easily done something bat-crap crazy like pull all the carts until a decision was reached.... stranger things have happened.  As soon as the ESRB was starting to become established, Nintendo was on board.

I'm not trying to misread any arguments but I highlighted the points in your quote that lead me to believe you were defending it. Also, you are the literally the first person I know of, in twenty something years, who thought there was even a modicum of merit in Nintendo's decision.

Here's the thing - nobody buying MK was living under a rock. Everyone knew the controversy. Nintendo was busy watering down their content while simultaneously throwing Sega under the bus in front on congress for stuff like Night Trap. They were wagging their finger at Dana Plato in a barely skimpy outfit while pointing at their port of MK and saying "but look, we CARE!!!!" It was a bad decision because they were more interested in playing tattle-tale on their competition and a mommy no one asked for, whereas Sega suddenly starting getting school-yard credibility, particularly with older kids. And there's the turning point: the exact moment Nintendo got those "uncool" and "console for the kids" labels - 1992.

I know I'm playing armchair boardroom quarterback with 20/20 foresight here but had Nintendo not tried to continue being ---daisies--- (and they were absolute ---daisies--- in the 80's/90's) by putting aside competition during the congressional video game violence witch hunt and stood up for the industry as a whole, maybe they wouldn't have been in the position where they had to release a censored MK. Who knows?

And I can't even stomach the SNES MK - just something so eerily Orwellian about playing it. (I'm not the only one who felt that way. Parents actually did write letters of complaints to Nintendo about that as well. Nobody wants an out-of-control censor.)

I never get to contribute to console discussions around here because the console forum is filled with fanboys.

You keep saying "fanboys" but you seem to not realize that fanboys are the products of someone who can only have one console. Most of us here, thanks to emulation or collecting, have access to not only Nintendo and Sega but Sony, Microsoft, Atari, NEC, Coleco, Magnavox, the Fairchild F and even Worlds of Wonder's Action Max if we so desire. There's really no incentive to pick sides; these consoles are all defunct and don't need our support any longer.

And I criticize Nintendo while admitting I do happen to love my SNES with a passion. History is what it is. Still some fun games. Right?

[vandale]

Think I will just use a scart cable on my old Loewe 29inch

[Malenko]

I'm about to be severely flamed by many, I'm sure, but to me, Mortal Kombat's only redeeming factor was the over-the-top violence

Not a flame retort, but there was a lot more to MK than the gore. Bright clean digitalized graphics that didn't look choppy and blocky (like Pit-Fighter did) Vibrant sound, and the one thing that it used to be judged harshly on was that all the characters play the same except their specials, so you could get the basics down for one character then use any of them. An original story line (that spun out of control during/after MK3) some what original characters, and insane moves like the nut punch, freezing people, and tossing a "spear". MK was very creative when it first came out. Yes there was violence and buckets of blood, but there was also friendships and babalities, lol.

I mean with the snes I can think of at least 30+ games that I can't play anywhere else and more importantly, I actually want to play.  With the Genesis, there's comix zone, and the Streets of Rage Series (which is good btw, but is a poor man's final fight), and for me at least... that's about it.  There are lots of other great titles on the system, but they are almost all arcade ports... I just use mame for that.  Like you said, there are a lot of sports titles... which I could give two squirts about. 

I had both a SNES and a Genesis. I played my SNES far more than I did my Genesis. I loved my SNES far more than I did my Genesis. ALL the US released home ports of the original MK sucked, the SNES port of MKII crushed the sega versions, even the 32x version.

While they are "sports titles" cant deny that Mutant League Football and Hockey were great. Street of Rage 3 was better than any Final Fight game.  The Ooze, Eternal Champions , General Chaos, Shining Force, Phantasy Star, Road Rash, the 2 XMen games, Vectorman, Beyond Oasis, Shinobi 3, MUSHA.  Lion King, Alladin and Jurassic Park (playing as the raptor!) should count, totally different games than the SNES versions..... Thats all I can think of without googling.

I know I didnt mention the Sonic or the Ecco games, because I only wanted to mention the titles I actually liked to play. Games like Herzog Zwei everyone says they played and how great it is, but I played it, and I didnt like it (same goes for Tactics Ogre on SNES) .And while its an arcade port, you couldn't play the Punisher on SNES it was only released on the Genesis that doesnt mean diddly squat today, but I was glad I had a Genesis when I was younger and could play the game at home.

Taking Arcade ports away from SEGA systems is like taking Nintendo first party titles away from Nintendo systems. Back when the systems came out MAME wasnt an option. Genesis Version of Strider was way begtter than the NES version :p

[opt2not]

Hey, you're an RGB junkie like me, what do you do about GBA gaming?  Do you just stick to the handheld, or do you have a fancy way to get the GBA or GBC for that matter on the big screen?

I use a GB Player; I modded a Gamecube component cable for RGB.  480p goes to an Extron Emotia to downscale to 240p, that goes to RGB to component transcoder, then to the TV.

I sometimes just play on the handheld itself too.  I prefer the feel of the original GBA over the SP, so I've been looking at modding it for a backlight:

http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?46224-Most-effective-GBA-backlight-mods

http://gbatemp.net/threads/gba-backlight-agb-001.328487/

At the end of the day, an old CRT is not a bad thing to hang on to and is probably best for old consoles (if not going the emulation route)

It is the best for old consoles even with the emulation route.

the official gamexcube component cable is the one and only way of getting real progressive out of the console there was never another company to use there built in converter in the cable itself.

Thanks northerngames, that's what I was saying, but some folks tend to be hard-headed.

I was just saying that you can't get 480i component from Gamecube without a DAC chip either.  So either his cable could do 480p or it didn't exist.  I just don't think there would be one that could do 480i component only.

From my understanding, I can mod the cable for RGB output, and connect it to a SCART header.  We have a conversation going on at the shmups forum that we're talking about modding it so that I don't completely destroy the ability to use the component output; since these cables are expensive and kinda rare...using a small switch installed on the DAC-side, to go from component to RGB output, along with one of these to convert it to SCART...

I'd have to feed the composite sync to it from the analogue port, via the A/V cable, and connect the audio lines externally.
So 6 RCA connections (R, G, B, C-Sync, R&L audio). 
I'm thinking I can mod this little converter as well, and add a couple audio lines straight to the SCART pinout, because when I connect it to the framemiester-mini, I have the audio passing through the HDMI-out for my set-up.

Now it comes down to finding an affordable GC Component cable. 

I've done something similar.  This is my Gamecube A/V dongle I modded from a component cable and a standard composite cable:



It outputs either RGB or component depending on how you set those dip switches on the digital video connector (top right).  The composite cable is just for the audio, I removed the composite video wire.  The other end is a DB-15HD ("VGA") connector which I can connect directly to my switching system, or to a component + audio adapter I made.

You don't have to use the composite video as sync though, you can pull H and V sync from the DAC, and they're active in both 15 and 31kHz RGB.  That does require more wires than the component cable contains though, I had to replace the cable coming from the digital video connector.  I'm not sure if it would be worth the extra work for you.  I know your X-RGB Mini is expecting composite sync, but you could try combining the H and V sync just by running them through 1N4148 diodes, whereas composite video requires an LM1881 to strip to composite sync.  It depends if the X-RGB Mini is picky about just feeding it composite video directly as sync.

An official Nintendo Gamecube D-Terminal cable (Japanese RGB connection) has the same DAC chip as well as enough wires as-is to carry H and V sync, but it's rarer and more expensive.  If you watch eBay for a while you can get a component cable for around $100, that's what I had to do.

Check out the third link in my signature for more about my RGB setup, including the Emotia and the Gamecube cable.

Awesome, thanks rCadeGaming!  I like your setup a lot, that's a really elegant cable you've constructed.

I'd like to make something up similar to that, but still retain the component RCA connectors, and have that switch for going back and forth between RGB and Component. As for the composite video sync, I'll probably just run it through a stripper anyways. I'm not sure if the XRGB-mini will take Composite Video as sync without needing to strip it.

[northerngames]

the official gamexcube component cable is the one and only way of getting real progressive out of the console there was never another company to use there built in converter in the cable itself.

Thanks northerngames, that's what I was saying, but some folks tend to be hard-headed.

From my understanding, I can mod the cable for RGB output, and connect it to a SCART header.  We have a conversation going on at the shmups forum that we're talking about modding it so that I don't completely destroy the ability to use the component output; since these cables are expensive and kinda rare...using a small switch installed on the DAC-side, to go from component to RGB output, along with one of these to convert it to SCART:

I'd have to feed the composite sync to it from the analogue port, via the A/V cable, and connect the audio lines externally.
So 6 RCA connections (R, G, B, C-Sync, R&L audio). 
I'm thinking I can mod this little converter as well, and add a couple audio lines straight to the SCART pinout, because when I connect it to the framemiester-mini, I have the audio passing through the HDMI-out for my set-up.

Now it comes down to finding an affordable GC Component cable. 

sounds all good to me and really you could just take that yellow composite jack and use that for your h/v just put the H on the outside wich is ground when it comes to audio and put the V in the center pin deal wich is usually the L or R signal for stereo.

even with the component cable there is no sound leads with it so just use the regular av cable for that and cut off the uneeded and apply the said plug and wire for the H and V leads if needed

once plugged in just poke around on the pins with a mutimeter so you know what each wire/pin are.

[opt2not]

sounds all good to me and really you could just take that yellow composite jack and use the for your h/v just put the H on the outside wich is ground when it comes to audio and put the V in the center pin deal wich is usually the L or R signal for stereo.

even with the component cable there is no sound leads with it so just use the regular av cable for that and cut off the uneeded and apply it for the H and V leads if needed 

Exactly, right on!   

Also, I found out from fudoh over at shmups that my the XRGB-mini can take composite-video as sync without the need of a sync-stripper.  So it's all good! 

[northerngames]

Nice.

I am glad they have all these new fancy converters out now and still more coming.

having to make that stuff all manual like can be a nightmare and costly too.

it is like night and day playing on progressive as long as the tv is a real progressive that does the gamecube resolutions in hd.

some of the newer tv's dont like 480P as good as they used to either display wise believe it or not but have I noticed it.
   

[SavannahLion]

Not sure where you are getting your component cables, but back in the day I had a xbox/gamecube component combo cable that I bought for 20 bucks.  Monster cables are a complete and total rip-off if that's what you are getting at.  I think the player averages around 50 bucks on the ebay. 

The official Gamecube cables are the real deal when it comes to 480p output. There isn't any other way you can get 480p out of the GC.  The official cable hosts an internal decoder IC (I believe nintendo's proprietary)  that goes beyond what regular Component cable does. There was a limited release, and I think you originally could only buy them from the Nintendo shop.

The gamecube monster cables you're thinking of were most likely just outputting 480i through component. Which wouldn't give you that nice clean 480p signal. Otherwise those would be as expensive too!

To be honest, I'm quite mystified as to why no one has yet obtained one of the old digital cables to pull it apart for the MX chip inside, attach a data logger to the data I/O pins and watch the traffic when doing known color patterns, or decap the IC and view it under a microscope. From that, create a test version using a FPGA, CPLD or whatever is appropriate and go on from there. I vaguely recall reading somewhere the digital port is (or was) a commonly available part in Japan.

I recognize the part is hard/expensive to obtain (I'm still kicking myself in the ass for not picking a bunch up when I had the chance  ), but for all the talk that's been going on about this cable and the vague hints of people "looking into it" I'm surprised no one has really surfaced with any new information about the underpinnings of the cable.

[opt2not]

To be honest, I'm quite mystified as to why no one has yet obtained one of the old digital cables to pull it apart for the MX chip inside, attach a data logger to the data I/O pins and watch the traffic when doing known color patterns, or decap the IC and view it under a microscope. From that, create a test version using a FPGA, CPLD or whatever is appropriate and go on from there. I vaguely recall reading somewhere the digital port is (or was) a commonly available part in Japan.

I recognize the part is hard/expensive to obtain (I'm still kicking myself in the ass for not picking a bunch up when I had the chance  ), but for all the talk that's been going on about this cable and the vague hints of people "looking into it" I'm surprised no one has really surfaced with any new information about the underpinnings of the cable.

I think it's mainly the fact that most people can play their Gamecube games on the Wii, so the market isn't really there for such a project.
And it seems that the GBA has been forgotten by the masses due to the DS and 3DS.  It's also a hassle to get a Gameboy Player for the GC especially one with the start-up disc (and prices on ebay for this is pretty ludicrous).
That, and again, the Wii's Virtual Console has killed a lot of the retro console market.   

[rCadeGaming]

sounds all good to me and really you could just take that yellow composite jack and use the for your h/v just put the H on the outside wich is ground when it comes to audio and put the V in the center pin deal wich is usually the L or R signal for stereo.

even with the component cable there is no sound leads with it so just use the regular av cable for that and cut off the uneeded and apply it for the H and V leads if needed 

Exactly, right on!   

Also, I found out from fudoh over at shmups that my the XRGB-mini can take composite-video as sync without the need of a sync-stripper.  So it's all good! 

Was going to write this:
Isn't the goal to avoid modding the cable if possible?  If the XRGB-Mini is fine with composite video as sync, you don't need to bother adding wires for H and V sync.  Just plug the yellow composite video plug into the yellow jack on the adapter, and make sure it's going to the right pin for C sync on the SCART connector. 

While finishing typing that, I realized that the composite video may not be active in 480p.  I haven't checked the Gamecube, but composite is generally not encoded above 15kHz.  I know that with the PS2 and PS3 you get RGB and composite video in 15kHz, but RGsB (sync on green) is your only option in 31kHz.

To be honest, I'm quite mystified as to why no one has yet obtained one of the old digital cables to pull it apart for the MX chip inside, attach a data logger to the data I/O pins and watch the traffic when doing known color patterns, or decap the IC and view it under a microscope. From that, create a test version using a FPGA, CPLD or whatever is appropriate and go on from there.

While searching one of the numbers printed on the chip, I found this:

http://www.gc-forever.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=770&start=276&sid=3d1d9442b4974a675fbe3e4a980ab2d2&view=print

[bimm25e]

When I hook up my NES to my 55" plasma through component, it gets artifact-ey

when I hook it up to My rich-ass pharmacist-friend's $3000 sony LED - it looks freaking stupendous.


long story short, you don't need an upscaler  if the tv you buy has a kickass one,

[rCadeGaming]

Just because your friend's TV makes it look pretty doesn't mean it's doing a good job.  How much more lag is it adding on top of the input lag it already has at 1080p?  I doubt many TV's can upscale as fast as the X-RGB Mini, not to mention that the TV won't add scanlines.

Did you mean to say NES through composite?  Does it have a component mod, or an RGB mod and an external transcoder?

[pbj]

Just because your friend's TV makes it look pretty doesn't mean it's doing a good job.

Yes, it does.

 

[opt2not]

If it's connected via Composite, no up-scaler is going to make it look as good as RGB or Component. You're just up-scaling source artifacts bigger. yadda-yadda...

[rCadeGaming]

PBJ, enjoy bliss.

Opt2not, what are you thinking for your solution?  I'm guessing you'll want to use 480p, as it will save the X-RGB mini from deinterlacing?

[opt2not]

Opt2not, what are you thinking for your solution?  I'm guessing you'll want to use 480p, as it will save the X-RGB mini from deinterlacing?

Yeah 480p is the goal.  I'm not really sure at this point.
I think it all depends on what I can get for a decent price, either a component cable or digital.  I'm also trying to track down a Gameboy Player for the GC, so there's that.

One thing I forgot to mention is that I own a UVC...so getting digital cable might be the easiest all-around, without having to RGB mod it.  But I'd be worried about lag, going from the digital cable --> UVC --> XRGB-mini.

[rCadeGaming]

By digital cable do you mean the D-terminal cable?

[opt2not]

Yes. 

[rCadeGaming]

Ok, kinda confused.  It's not a digital cable though, it carries an analog signal.

Also, I made a mistake earlier when I said D-terminal was a Japanese RGB connection, it actually also carries YPbPr component (at least in the case of the official Gamecube D-terminal cable), it just uses a different connector that is common in Japan.  Unfortunately, this means that you'd still have to get to the DAC chip to enable RGB and connect to the H and V sync outputs.  The only advantage with this cable is that it already has extra wires in that can be used to carry the H and V sync, so you don't have to replace the cabling itself.  The D-terminal connector at the end is also not the same as a DB15HD ("VGA") connector, so you wouldn't be able to plug it into your UVC.

[northerngames]

By digital cable do you mean the D-terminal cable?

same thing on the inside.

the digital port on the console is just a pin jack to the motherboard that has no video chip between.

hands on in person that little cables pcb's and tiny components is probably more complex and has just as many if not more components in it then the console itself 

all I can say about that and why it has not been cracked is that there is alot going on in the small space and packed in there tight.

[rCadeGaming]

By digital cable do you mean the D-terminal cable?

same thing on the inside.

Was just trying to be clear, and it isn't the same thing.  A digital cable carries a digital signal, like an HDMI, DVI-D, or digital optical cable.  I guess since it accepts a digital signal at one end, you could call it a digital-to-analog cable, but whether it is passing RGB or YPbPr component it is carrying an analog signal.

the digital port on the console is just a pin jack to the motherboard that has no video chip between.

Not quite.  That port outputs YCbCr digital component video and digital audio.  The digital to analog converter IC (DAC) just converts the digital YCbCr to analog YPbPr component (or analog RGB when you mod it). 

The Nintendo cable doesn't make use of the digital audio, but there is a mod to add an output for it:

http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:nintendogcda

hands on in person that little cables pcb's and tiny components is probably more complex and has just as many if not more components in it then the console itself 

??

all I can say about that and why it has not been cracked is that there is alot going on in the small space and packed in there tight.

It has been cracked.  Check out the links I posted a few posts above.

[northerngames]

until you get them both side by side stripped down to the pcb's in person sitting side by side come back and convince me again they differ in there 

when I post it is from hands on personal exp. for the most part

you see that pcb in the link you posted?

that is not on the console and once again the console itself does not output it on it's own as stated prior.

I am not going to go into what I can make console's do externally like that as there is hundreds of mods between the various consoles.

if the conosle had it built in why would you need your extenal IC again?

anyhow check this stuff out in person and tell me again I make this all up 

[rCadeGaming]

 

[northerngames]

yeah ditto!!

[rCadeGaming]

until you get them both side by side stripped down to the pcb's in person sitting side by side come back and convince me again they differ in there 

I didn't say the component and D-terminal cables are different inside.  I was saying that it's confusing the D-terminal a digital cable because it carries an analog signal.

you see that pcb in the link you posted?

that is not on the console and once again the console itself does not output it on it's own as stated prior.
...
if the conosle had it built in why would you need your extenal IC again?

Please re-read:

That port outputs YCbCr digital component video and digital audio.  The digital to analog converter IC (DAC) just converts the digital YCbCr to analog YPbPr component (or analog RGB when you mod it). 

The Nintendo cable doesn't make use of the digital audio.

[northerngames]

I see.

I just used the stock av cable and port for audio and cut off the rest of the unused wiring.

that may be more clear but stuff like this also comes down to what your hooking it to.

like you could have a crystal clear console setup but on a bunk stereo system you get crap results or you have a awesome stereo and stock sound where it sounds better then the crystal clear console.

sure both would be nice but most would not hear the difference in a game much if any at all.   

[opt2not]

Also, I made a mistake earlier when I said D-terminal was a Japanese RGB connection, it actually also carries YPbPr component (at least in the case of the official Gamecube D-terminal cable), it just uses a different connector that is common in Japan.  Unfortunately, this means that you'd still have to get to the DAC chip to enable RGB and connect to the H and V sync outputs.  The only advantage with this cable is that it already has extra wires in that can be used to carry the H and V sync, so you don't have to replace the cabling itself.  The D-terminal connector at the end is also not the same as a DB15HD ("VGA") connector, so you wouldn't be able to plug it into your UVC.

So I've decided to go with the D-terminal and just mod it simply for RGB, without bothering with a switch. Having the extra wires for H and V will make this a bit cleaner as well, since like you said, I don't need to replace the cable.

I'll be following this guide:
http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/ntsc-gamecube-rgb-cable/

[rCadeGaming]

Ah, so it was mmmonkey that started calling the d-terminal cable a digital cable.  Tisk tisk!  Just kidding, aside from my semantics it looks like a good guide.

But enough of my ramblings, let us know where you find one, and how it turns out.