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Author Topic: X-Arcade Tankstick limited button presses (6 button limitation)  (Read 19865 times)

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eds1275

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Re: X-Arcade Tankstick limited button presses (6 button limitation)
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2012, 02:00:40 pm »
Awesome. I would keep the old x-arcade interface if I were you and use it on a single player bartop or mini machine like I did. Or in a jukebox project or something. Maybe not the best for gaming but it's still a good piece of kit for other projects.

relay01

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Re: X-Arcade Tankstick limited button presses (6 button limitation)
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2013, 12:59:17 am »
Sorry to revive a twice dead thread but I have seen the 6 button limitation as soon as I took mine iut of the box and tested it. 

I have access to ps/2 ports on my computer so wasn't too worried.  What intrigues me most is that if you look at the features for xarcade's BYO kit it says plane as day "No Limit On USB Simultaneously-Pressed Switches" .

One would deduce that either the byo kit is different than the PCB in the tankstick, or its a lie maybe.  I know this cp gets a lot of flack on this forum but other than this concerning problem, this thing's great.

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Re: X-Arcade Tankstick limited button presses (6 button limitation)
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2013, 10:17:27 am »
Interesting point there Relay.  I think this is new to X-Arcade's site.  I do not recall seeing it before, maybe I just missed it.  But it still should be something for anyone who is thinking of buying this to consider.  Now with that said, I do love my Tankstick.  So easy to setup and use. It has taken some abuse over the last 2+ years and help up great.  The price is also hard to beat.

Perhaps if someone is considering buying this, a call or email to X-Gaming for clarification on this button press issue.  Maybe since so many people have viewed this thread they have changed their encoder.  It would be a wonderful thing if they did!

BadMouth

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Re: X-Arcade Tankstick limited button presses (6 button limitation)
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2013, 12:03:27 pm »
Maybe that's why they had a fire sale on the dual stick a few weeks ago.
I've since deleted the email, but I think it was something like $60 for former customers.
I had no use for it, but seriously considered it for that price.

relay01

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Re: X-Arcade Tankstick limited button presses (6 button limitation)
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2013, 02:48:36 pm »
I contacted the company for this and an issue I had with my unit.  One of the buttons was kinda spongy.  I took advantage of the "fire sale" since my friend purchased something from them and forwarded their promo to me.  So I have presumably a "new" model and I can assure you, the button issue still persists. 

I, like the OP, am loving my tankstick and all the computers I intended to use it on have compatable PS/2 ports.  I really only take issue to the idea that a company marketing to enthusiasts, would be more up front about this limitation.  And having the "typo" (see below) only serves to further confuse their customers.  I'll be interested to see if a new PCB gets release soon or if the typo gets removed from their page. 

Anyway, here's a transcript of our conversation:

Me:
Hi,
I've noticed through usb that there is a simultaneously pressed button limitation on my tankstick of 6 normal keys and 9 with modifier keys. I've read that this is normal for usb keyboards but your BYO kit states that there is: "No Limit On USB Simultaneously-Pressed Switches: Full Native On-Board USB Support"
Does this mean that the BYO kit is different than the PCB in the tankstick? Or am I doing something wrong to have the button limitation. Please advise.

A second issue relating just to my tankstick is all the buttons work great except for one which seems a bit "spongy". It doesn't have the same click as the others. Can I get a replacement button or fix this issue somehow?

Xarcade Tech:
We're sorry to hear that you're having a problem.

That is a typo, as you correctly stated all USB keyboard do have a limitation. However, no games (even the most advanced fighters with 2-players) need more inputs than what it's capable of using the modifiers.

Also the PS/2 connection has no limitations at all.

Please confirm the mailing address for the button. Is it just a standard black button?

Me:

A typo? Wow!
My understanding is some of your competitor's products get around this issue by either having the system recognize the product as a joystick (Which I know your product can do with an adapter) or have the system recognize the product as multiple keyboards with no more than 6 buttons per each keyboard.

Some humble feedback:
I know the 6/9 button limitation is perfectly acceptable for most gameplay. But imagine if you will, an unexperienced userbase playing on your target market's control panel. Unexperienced users tend to button mash, lean on panels and are overall less coordinated during gameplay. 6/9 button limits get eaten up quickly. Your product is the most comprehensive and versitle "complete" control panel on the market. Sure you could buy an I-pac then make your own panel, but your product is complete and works out of the box (that's why I bought yours). Said for this one, glaring flaw your product is amazing. I don't know whether you are just tasked with support or you may have other duties in the company but if you ever have a new PCB revision please strive to resolve this issue somehow. Maybe just bundling a gamepad adapter with your product would suffice but as I said before, 6/9 buttons is really not enough for many scenarious.
<Rest of message redacted for personal info>


ark_ader

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Re: X-Arcade Tankstick limited button presses (6 button limitation)
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2013, 05:17:23 pm »
If it such a big deal get a Xbox 360 kit and use it for the PC.

No limitations.

Like X Arcade said the games you are going to play will not have the issue.  Playing  custom mame roms on it might, but that is your problem, not theirs.  ::)
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Re: X-Arcade Tankstick limited button presses (6 button limitation)
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2013, 08:28:48 am »
Their response is B.S.!! Easy for them to sit there and say it won't be a problem, but it is.  Anyone who has ever played 2-player NBA Jam, NFL Blitz, Mortal Kombat.....(the list goes on) on a Tankstick realize this quickly becomes a problem. 

Isn't that ironic that they have to make this claim right on their website yet it is not true??

MonMotha

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Re: X-Arcade Tankstick limited button presses (6 button limitation)
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2013, 09:25:20 am »
Quote
all USB keyboard do have a limitation

This is wrong.  All USB keyboards running in the so-called "boot protocol" mode have a 6-button limitation due to the way boot protocol mode operates.  There is nothing in the standard that forbids keyboards not operating in boot protocol mode from having this limitation, and in fact the standard implies that you'd want to have an alternate setting which lifts this limitation.  In particular, there's no real reason for a device that isn't even a real keyboard to support boot protocol mode at all (it's only needed for compatibility with the BIOS, DOS, and Win95).  I have definitely made plenty of USB devices that show up and function perfectly well as a "keyboard" that will let you activate every darn button input on the thing.

FWIW, the standard DOES require that keyboards use "array" format reports i.e. they need to report USB keycodes in an array, not a bitfield, and there's a limit to how big you can practically make a report.  Since each keycode is a byte, this imposes something of a soft limit on the number of button presses, but it's much higher than 6.  Windows XP, Linux, and OS X all support using bitfields ("variable" format main items in the report), and then you only need one bit per key.  For some reason, the standard forbids this (as a specific exception to them normally being freely usable), but it seems to work fine on all modern OSes.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 09:26:51 am by MonMotha »

relay01

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Re: X-Arcade Tankstick limited button presses (6 button limitation)
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2013, 09:57:53 am »
It's okay everyone!  You see, since it's YOUR tankstick and you know about the limitation you instantly have an edge over anyone. 

For instance, say you're playing Street Fighter and you toss out a fireball.  Well, just immediately mash all the buttons on your side and your opponent won't be able to jump out of the way!   :laugh2:

@ark_ader : What do you have stock in the company or something?  You can't tell me that the above scenario is acceptable for an ENTHUSIAST market who focuses on recreation of their original experiences. 

I'm using PS/2 right now and am perfectly happy with it but IMHO why bother throwing in USB support if it isn't complete. 

BTW:  To get around always having to have a bulky keyboard plugged into the back of the tankstick to use PS/2.  I gutted a keyboard for the controller board and wrapped it up in a neat little package.  Now it's sortof like a dongle that I can neatly stash out of sight. :-)

postmortem

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Re: X-Arcade Tankstick limited button presses (6 button limitation)
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2013, 11:03:52 pm »
Back when I was dealing with the issue (before converting it to ipac) I had issues with ps/2 as well as usb AND playstation usb adapter. The playstation adapter added a slight (very slight) button lag. I had the tankstick plugged into the xarcade playstation adapter and then the playstation adapter going to a usb adapter to the computer.

 There were no limitations on ps/2 like there were on usb but sometimes randomly the scroll lock light on the keyboard would turn on and the last button I pressed would get stuck like I was holding it down (even though I wasnt). I tried like 3 or 4 different ps/2 keyboards till I'd had enough and ordered the ipac.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 11:06:42 pm by postmortem »
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relay01

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Re: X-Arcade Tankstick limited button presses (6 button limitation)
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2013, 11:11:48 am »
I've noticed some lag with my particular PS1/2 controller to USB adapter when using standard PS* controllers.  I'm not sure whether this was your case but the cheapo adapters leave much to be desired.  I don't even like using them anymore.  If going this route, best to use the 360 adapters IMHO.

As for the tankstick issue.  I had some problems when having both the trackball and joysticks connected via PS/2.  If I rolled the trackball, the directionals would "stick" so I just opted to connect the trackball to usb.  Not sure if this is the xarcade or a ps/2 limitation.  I don't have a standard ps/2 mouse to test with so couldn't verify for sure.

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Re: X-Arcade Tankstick limited button presses (6 button limitation)
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2013, 02:47:10 pm »
As for the tankstick issue.  I had some problems when having both the trackball and joysticks connected via PS/2.  If I rolled the trackball, the directionals would "stick" so I just opted to connect the trackball to usb.  Not sure if this is the xarcade or a ps/2 limitation.  I don't have a standard ps/2 mouse to test with so couldn't verify for sure.

Just as an FYI, this is NOT a PS/2 issue.  We have done tests with the KeyWiz, with a special version which disabled the Shazaaam! feature, and wired all of the inputs to a single button.  It registers every one of the 40 available inputs, and does it perfectly.  Issues like this are an implementation limitation, and they are specific to the controller being tested.  Unfortunately, the old adage of getting what you pay for is apt when it comes to encoders. 

It also underscores the importance of doing the research and taking some manufacturers claims, especially with unknown and insufficiently tested products, with a bit of a grain of salt.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 02:50:38 pm by RandyT »

relay01

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Re: X-Arcade Tankstick limited button presses (6 button limitation)
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2013, 09:50:26 am »
As far as I know,
The xarcade products are the only ones that can hook up to one of many game consoles.  That is to say, without hacking a controller.

I'm no computer engineer but to make a product that versatile, you can expect some hiccups/quirks.  I just wish they were more up front about said quirks.

I would however assume that most of their user-base is using this thing on a game console more than a pc and with the bundled games they package in with the product, 6/9 buttons is more than enough.

I'd never go so far as to say the product is untested or a cheap encoder.  It's maybe spread a little thin to support an ambitions list of features.

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Re: X-Arcade Tankstick limited button presses (6 button limitation)
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2013, 11:18:13 am »
As far as I know,
The xarcade products are the only ones that can hook up to one of many game consoles.  That is to say, without hacking a controller.

I'm no computer engineer but to make a product that versatile, you can expect some hiccups/quirks.  I just wish they were more up front about said quirks.

I think there is a difference between "not being up-front" and deliberate misrepresentation.  Unfortunately, this isn't an uncommon occurrence with those who attempt to pit their offerings against existing products which make similar claims, and which also deliver on them.  This isn't marketing hyperbole, or a case of system incompatibility.  It's touting a feature which doesn't exist, so IMHO, it shouldn't be so easy to dismiss.

Quote
I would however assume that most of their user-base is using this thing on a game console more than a pc and with the bundled games they package in with the product, 6/9 buttons is more than enough.

I wouldn't use a device with this limitation on anything other than a single player rig, in which case, it would be fine...unless you had the trackball issue described earlier on that same controller.  Technically, the input situation can be made to work, so long as certain combinations never happen, but who wants to think about those things while playing a game?  With a two player control, with 6 buttons each, 20 inputs are required just for the main controls.  Of the 20, 16 should be limitation free.  On a joystick, only 2 inputs can ever be used at the same time, so configuring those to non-modifiers would be the best route.  But once you do this, this leaves only 2 non-modifiers for buttons.  The are 8 modifiers, but of those 8, a couple are keys which probably shouldn't be used as controls, as they are special to the OS.  So that leaves 6, which means at the end of the day, you are still short 4 proper inputs on the 2-player, 6-buttons each panel.  Technically, again, so long as certain combinations don't happen at the same time, there won't be an issue, but the moment both players move their joysticks to diagonal position, and each hits a non-modifier button, or one player hits two, any further activations of the non-modifier defined inputs will be ignored until one or more of those are released.

While it sounds esoteric, it does happen in fighting games, even with the above "optimal" configuration.  The real issue is that the controller is configurable, and when the user who thinks these limitations don't exist does not configure the panel optimally, the  situation becomes much worse.

Quote
I'd never go so far as to say the product is untested or a cheap encoder.  It's maybe spread a little thin to support an ambitions list of features.

That isn't just limited to the controller being discussed.  I can point to several examples in the past where claims like this were made, and the controller didn't deliver on those claims.  Some were eventually fixed, after hapless customers were left holding a poor product, while others just went away, after vehemently defending the claims which simply were not true.  This indicates a lack of proper testing, or perhaps simple ignorance as to what these claims actually mean, and the ramifications they have for the user.  In this case, it appears that the company knows those claims are not factual, yet this is not reflected in the marketing material.  IMHO, this is worse.  If they have taken steps to remedy the situation, and it is factual for current products, then that's fine, but it would probably be a good idea for folks to make sure for themselves at this point.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 11:22:56 am by RandyT »

ark_ader

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Re: X-Arcade Tankstick limited button presses (6 button limitation)
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2013, 03:35:25 pm »
Quote
@ark_ader : What do you have stock in the company or something?  You can't tell me that the above scenario is acceptable for an ENTHUSIAST market who focuses on recreation of their original experiences. 

I beta test devices for them when they want me to.  I have all the consoles here to test them on.  I could be a good reseller too, but I'm sure gremlin would be upset.

I find that if you have games like NBA Jam you did not actually buy a board and copied the rom or purchased a licensed rom.  I bet its a rom you got on your internet travels, a console port maybe (like in CoinOPS) but any roms that is in Mame, which is unique or exotic you have to build a device to accommodate it.  It goes without saying.

Welcome to Build You Own Arcade Controls!  You want to play something exotic, build the controls yourself.  X Arcade products are designed to work with different platforms with off the shelf games.  Not every game imaginable.  ::)   :hissy:

X Arcade is designed for classic arcade titles and consoles.  Moaning about how you need more the 6 button key presses for a game is ridiculous.  Play an average console game such as the Xbox 360 and you will not reach a six button requirement.  It takes a fraction of a second for the event to be registered so if you mash your buttons that could a problem right there.

I like what X Arcade provides, and so do many other users.  Yes I can make my own CP and use KeyWiz or Jpac encoders.  If you want to play NBA Jam head on over to Randy or Andy and give them some of your business.  Good luck wiring it up to your console with user switch-able digital/analogue controls though.  :cheers:
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New X-Arcade PCB: 15 Button Press Limit USB
« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2014, 03:54:37 pm »
Just a heads-up that in response to feedback and extensive beta-testing with customers, we've quietly updated our PCB in Feb, so USB connections now support 12 simultaneous button presses (or 15 with the modifier buttons)
http://www.xgaming.com/pages/new-x-arcade-pcb

This new revision board is included in all X-Arcade Tanksticks or BYO or PCB kits purchased after Feb, 2014 and will be incorporated into any Solo/Dual purchased after Dec 1st, 2014. 

Other updates:
15 Simultaneous Button Presses
New chip design  can handle 12 simultaneous inputs/key commands and 3 additional using the modifiers (CTR, ALT, SHIFT). 

Change Programmed Modes Without Pressing Load Button
Due to feedback from customers, we removed the requirement to press the load button to change modes (which could be difficult if your controller or PCB is mounted in a cabinet), modes are changed (and loaded automatically) based on the position of the Mode switch.

Uses Arrow Keys For Player 1
No more issues with pressing the num-lock key as this board uses the arrow keys (not num-lock keys).

Improved Speed
Newly designed board circuitry provides performance and speed matching any current encoder. 

Any questions or comments, feel free to contact support at xgaming.com