I might have found a way to gear my career to playing video games!

[shateredsoul]

I recently made connections with people who can help me with my research interest, "how kids learn to program from playing video games". 

One person worked with Microsoft helping develop AI for Kodu (you can download it for free and on xbox 360 for $5), and the other person is working off an NSF grant to get more girls into programming careers. One of the guys invited me to global game jam.. I can't program, but he said you can use anything (including rpg maker, game maker, hell you can even make a board game).

I'm really excited. I'm also taking a java intro class, figure if I'm going to study this I better know it.

Now i'm just worried about whether i'm overloading my self, Graduate Student Research position (20 hrs a week), qualifying exam, working on 3 publications, mentoring 6 udergrads, working on coding kids interactions while playing a video game, planning wedding, working out 4 times a week (doctors orders), qualifying exams.

Now that I list it out, doesn't seem like too much, plus might as well work ---my bottom--- off now that I can cuz I won't have time when we have kids.

[drventure]

Great stuff. Anything to get more kids into tech.

My daughter had show and tell in kindergarten.

So I set her up with

1) A resistor ("it's like riding your bike through a sandpit for electricity")
2) A Capacitor ("it's like a battery that looses it's charge really fast")
3) a 386 CPU ("it's the brain of a computer")
4) an LED with a button battery ("it makes an electrical circuit")

The classes loved it, and her teachers kept commenting on how technical she was<g>

Gotta balance that with princesses and unicorns though!

[Thenasty]

what......................no time for MAME ?  

[shateredsoul]

what......................no time for MAME ?  

yeah maybe not, at least not until I knock off a few things of that list.  

Turns out the guy I met, Teale Fristoe, made this game. It's called, As I Lay Dying, it's a pixel art game. It addresses pretty interesting and dark, but real issues. A fun platformer.

http://www.digyourowngrave.com/as-i-lay-dying/

*edit* just had a thought, I could turn coding for mame into a learning opportunity, have the kids fill in the empty spots on the mame team, they learn how to code, we get updates to mame. win win. 

[SavannahLion]

I'm really excited. I'm also taking a java intro class, figure if I'm going to study this I better know it.

Take it from someone who made the grave mistake of studying a "satellite" language first.

Skip the Java and go straight to a language like C. Once you learn C, you'll get a working knowledge of languages like C++, C# (to some degree) and naturally, Java. Once you get the syntax, all you need to learn is the dialect.

[Rando]

Turns out the guy I met, Teale Fristoe, made this game. It's called, As I Lay Dying, it's a pixel art game. It addresses pretty interesting and dark, but real issues. A fun platformer.

http://www.digyourowngrave.com/as-i-lay-dying/

At work, so I can't check this out, but based on the "As I Lay Dying" poem by Robert Frost, where the guy is lying in the desert and birds overhead are arguing about which parts of him their going to eat first?  If so, great piece and subject for a game, IMHO!

[shateredsoul]

I'm really excited. I'm also taking a java intro class, figure if I'm going to study this I better know it.

Take it from someone who made the grave mistake of studying a "satellite" language first.

Skip the Java and go straight to a language like C. Once you learn C, you'll get a working knowledge of languages like C++, C# (to some degree) and naturally, Java. Once you get the syntax, all you need to learn is the dialect.

but everyone told me to start with java or python hmm, i'm probably going to audit (sit in) a intro to java class.

@Rando, yes based on that. So you play this girl, after the guy dies on a hike she has to take the body back home. If you leave the body alone too long, crows start to peck at it. Not very graphic (it's based on pixel art), but I liked it a lot actually.

[SavannahLion]

Yeah, I was told the same thing.

There's nothing wrong with java. But as an intro for someone wants to be serious in the profession, don't, you'll learn java anyways and learning it now before a root language would be a serious distraction.

[shateredsoul]

If you want to be a programmer, I'd suggest dropping out of a real university now and going to community college.  Get the education that you'll really need and get out there in the industry.

I don't want to be a programmer. I want to be a researcher who studies best ways for kids to learn programming. For example, some ppl study how to get more girls interested in programming careers. I wouldn't be actually developing the software, but I should have some basic knowledge of how programming works so I can talk to people who will be designing the software and to see if the kids are actually progressing. Some software that has been used for this includes kodu, scratch, alice, game maker, and more.

Your point though brings up a good issue though, if our best coders are self taught or learn best when at community college, what are university classes not doing right? I guess i'll find out. I heard back from the guy, he's fine with me sitting in. Not sure if I want to do the homework yet, but that's probably the only way I'll really learn it. Maybe i'll just take a community college course this summer in C.

[SavannahLion]

That's actually pretty cool. I remember how maddingly frustrating being eight years old and writing  code with only a booklet and no guidance.

[shateredsoul]

Yeah during my undergrad all of the "hard sciences" where no hold barred like that. And it was super competitive, Students wouldn't even lend each other notes or want to help other students.

My adviser's daughter actually was part of this pretty cool thing. They started an all womens engineering group and pretty much taught themselves how to program. Actually, 1 knew how to do it, and the rest had degrees in all sorts of careers. They started a company, but now they're spread out with different types of jobs. My adviser's daughter now works at Apple.

I know another guy who just got hired by apple too, he dropped out of college to work full time at some company as a programmer before that.

[SavannahLion]

Regarding PBJs comment.

Be careful with the community colleges though. They tend to "suggest" a lot of crap classes you don't really need. Or worse, "suggest" you take classes you have no hope of passing. My CC counselor did exactly that, encourage me to take 2 classes I had no hope of passing. The first class I failed miserably and it would take two full semesters to repair the damage to my HOW. The second time I knew the ---smurf--- tricked me again within three days and bailed out.

Based what I've heard from current students this trend is worse because of the economy. Some are .literally sucking students for oodles of cash.

Always do the research on whatever anyone suggests to you. Nothing sucks worse than wasting time and money and a useless class.

[shateredsoul]

Regarding PBJs comment.

Be careful with the community colleges though. They tend to "suggest" a lot of crap classes you don't really need. Or worse, "suggest" you take classes you have no hope of passing. My CC counselor did exactly that, encourage me to take 2 classes I had no hope of passing. The first class I failed miserably and it would take two full semesters to repair the damage to my HOW. The second time I knew the ---smurf--- tricked me again within three days and bailed out.

Based what I've heard from current students this trend is worse because of the economy. Some are .literally sucking students for oodles of cash.

Always do the research on whatever anyone suggests to you. Nothing sucks worse than wasting time and money and a useless class.

man, I was hoping it would be affordable. I remember community college being 11 bucks per unit, probably not anymore huh? Do you know how professors feel about students sitting in their class? Is that a common practice at community colleges? or do they see that as a bother to them? I wouldn't expect her/him to grade my stuff so it wouldn't be extra work for them.

[Vanguard]

I'd say two things that particular school (Texas A&M) did wrong was lump computer science in with engineering and make the students take a great deal of unnecessary math courses.  

This is exactly why so many of our jobs go to India and China.   Those math courses aren't unnecessary.   Sure they're unnecessary if you want to design web pages.   They aren't unnecessary for a large range of Computer Science related jobs.   In Computer Science fields, knowing how to program is like knowing how to strip a wire for an electrician.   It's like the most basic skill you will need.   There are SO many other skills you will need in order to be useful in the field you choose to go into.  

Depending on what area you want to go into, Math is like the #2 skill you need.   It will take you very far and the more you know the further it will take you.   Many Computer Science jobs will not be accessible to you if you're a great programmer with no math background.  Games being one of them.   A 3D engine and the tools needed to develop them are littered with advanced math.   While we American's run away from college math, students in India and China are taking these courses before college.  

We are outsourcing $150,000+ jobs in this country not because it's cheaper to hire in India and China, we are doing it because we can't hire people here.   We've been trying to build a team for 2 years and have managed to hire about 10 people.   Those people all came from our competitors.  Students today are too short sighted.  They want a quick degree with little effort and the hopes of big rewards.   They are selling themselves short.   The big rewards go to those who have the skills that require some work to attain.  

If you graduate from a community college with a programming degree and little other marketable skills, you're not going to get hired by Apple, Microsoft, Google, Intel, AMD, Broadcomm, Qualcomm, Texas Instruments, EA, or any of the hundreds of high tech, high paying companies out there.   You're going to get hired by companies that can't attract people with high salaries or cool work.

[AtomSmasher]

Agreed, math has been essential to all of the programming jobs I've had.  In my current job I wish I remembered a lot more of the math and physics that I learned in college because I'm forced to learn a lot of it all over again.

[shateredsoul]

what about programming in video games? how math and physics heavy is that?

Remember, i'm not trying to get a job in programming (read above).

[AtomSmasher]

what about programming in video games? how math and physics heavy is that?

Remember, i'm not trying to get a job in programming (read above).

It all depends on the game.  If you plan on doing 3d games, then plan on knowing matrix math like the back of your hand.  If you plan on using physics in your game, then you either use a third party library or create your own physics library for the game.  I've done both and while the third party library worked pretty good after we finally got it working, it also implemented a lot of features we didn't use that slowed down the game.  Creating my own mini-physics library worked significantly better when I was working on simpler games.

I also doubt that any programmer is regularly using math at the level that they were teaching/requiring it.

In my current job (non-video game related) I wouldn't say I'm using it regularly, but I'm using it often enough that it's biting me in the ass that I don't remember it all.  I've had to spend a lot of time relearning a lot of the advanced math (mainly the math from my advanced physics classes) I originally learned in college.

I agree they do make Comp Sci harder then it should be in college, but since around 75% of the people dropped out because it was too hard, that makes my degree look that much nicer to employers, so I'm not complaining

[SavannahLion]

Damn atomsmasher beat me to it.

As for crap courses. Some the courses my cc required for CS was geology and American History.  I get that schools want well rounded students but geology as a requirement for CS? Maybe if I was doing a reboot of DigDug.

[SavannahLion]

I'd say that the lack of qualified graduates here has a little more to do with colleges doing everything they can to flunk out domestic students while bending over backwards to cater to international ones than it does with lazy American students.

I thought that had more to do with that whole minority equality thing.

[SavannahLion]

Oh that's right, evil topic.

[ids]

I didn't understand why we had to take so many math classes while studying CS.  In the 20+ years since, I've come to truly appreciate the reasons.

Also, Java is a fine starting point.  If your goals are simply to have some appreciation for programming, there's no reason to debate which is the best starter language.  C is great too, but many people get confused about scoping, include files, pointers, the linker, etc.  Java is simpler in many respects, but adds the "class" thing as a small learning hurdle.

However, wrt "people who will be designing the software" - that's a whole other thing.  Design and programming are different disciplines.  You may get a taste for what programming is about, but without a few good years of doing nothing but programming, design ideas could be difficult to ponder at times.

[RayB]

what about programming in video games? how math and physics heavy is that?

Remember, i'm not trying to get a job in programming (read above).

Back on topic, your question is so vague.  You don't just "program a game" and have to do everything. You can use pre-made engines in which case you wouldnt need to know the physics and advanced maths. Games typically have huge teams and "programming" is divided up into very specific specialties.

[shateredsoul]

what about programming in video games? how math and physics heavy is that?

Remember, i'm not trying to get a job in programming (read above).

Back on topic, your question is so vague.  You don't just "program a game" and have to do everything. You can use pre-made engines in which case you wouldnt need to know the physics and advanced maths. Games typically have huge teams and "programming" is divided up into very specific specialties.

So it may be helpful if I provide some more background.

So the kids will probably be working with something like Kodu, a program that teaches basic concepts in coding. The idea is to get kids familiar early on so that we can encourage them to consider this as a career and explore the best ways to teach these concepts.



I should know how to read code, and know some basic stuff, but not necessarily be able to program on my own. It's a collaborations with the computer science department, so we have people who have a deep knowledge of this stuffy. I bring learning theory to the table and my experience in working with behavioral studies (i.e. looking at kids, what they do, coding it, analyzing the data, making comparison's between teaching methods etc. etc.) I'd like to know enough coding so that I know what computer science people can do, so I can talk to them, so that I know the limitations, and so I at least know what the kids should be learning (and preferably a little bit more advanced than what the kids will ever learn).

Kodu for example focuses on things such as, If x happens then y, and some programmable AI was integrated into the version I saw but the kids didn't really use that feature. They mostly made coin collecting games. Only a few kids made innovative games exploring types of play not normally focused on, such as emotions (i.e. giving a heart to another friend, resulting in a stronger relationship between the figures), everyone else made pacman/mario coin collecting games.