The thing about custom artwork (FAQ & rant)

[opt2not]

What people need to keep in mind is they're not paying $200 for the hour worth of work.  They are paying $200 for the years of experience to be able to do the work in an hour.

Amen brother. 

[Generic Eric]

What people need to keep in mind is they're not paying $200 for the hour worth of work.  They are paying $200 for the years of experience to be able to do the work in an hour.

Amen brother. 

I'll probably get ugly looks for saying this.  I'm not saying don't charge $200.  I'm saying don't deliver it in an hour.  *shrug* 

Just don't stop.  Your artwork is good and you should feel good.

[opt2not]

Oh I wish it could take only an hour.

These things take me months, unfortunately. The process is long and there are many back-and-forth communications because I fully involve the people I'm working with on the direction.  Its not like people just give me their concept and I run with it...there are iterative passes.

Most people I've dealt with have given me lots of breathing space though. For instance when they're not moving so fast on their side of the project, like during the cold seasons, I can take my time.

[Le Chuck]

Everytime I see this thread I just read it as "The thing custom artwork" I think it's a machine with some sweet as John Carpenter monster art.  BOOOOOOO!

[eds1275]

My two cents, for anyone that cares to listen. It's not even the fact that you honed your craft and are good at it. It's not about what the client thinks it should be worth, and I definitely don't believe it's as simple as "it's only worth what someone is willing to pay." It comes down to time. I value my time. I enjoy the artsy stuff I work on (music/audio) but that doesn't mean I always jump at the chance to do it, even for money. If my time is precious to me and you want to take that away, it's going to cost you.

[Malenko]

My two cents, for anyone that cares to listen. It's not even the fact that you honed your craft and are good at it. It's not about what the client thinks it should be worth, and I definitely don't believe it's as simple as "it's only worth what someone is willing to pay." It comes down to time. I value my time. I enjoy the artsy stuff I work on (music/audio) but that doesn't mean I always jump at the chance to do it, even for money. If my time is precious to me and you want to take that away, it's going to cost you.

Yes, Im bumping this thread. It needs to be pinned in the artwork section.

[opt2not]

Its been awhile since I've had to refer this thread to someone. Mainly because I haven't taken on anything new in the last year or so. But a sticky would be cool! 

[HaRuMaN]

Its been awhile since I've had to refer this thread to someone. Mainly because I haven't taken on anything new in the last year or so. But a sticky would be cool! 

It was stickied before you replied...  lol

[opt2not]

Well then... 

[SNAAKE]

I like those emails when people ask me to make 4-5 designs and throw in bunch of ideas


...who's paying for all that? no further reply

[Vigo]

Opt and Snaake, how about both of you make me 4-5 designs, I will choose who will be worthy to completely design my cab artwork for me for me this crisp 10 dollar bill I have.   

[Generic Eric]

Opt and Snaake, how about both of you make me 4-5 designs, I will choose who will be worthy to completely design my cab artwork for me for me this crisp 10 dollar bill I have.   

[SNAAKE]

ok deal but only if you have....CASH IN HAND!

[lamprey]

Shouldn't this be in the vendor sub forum?

[Malenko]

Just to add to this thread, you can be as picky as your wallet allows.
More changes = more time


The absolute worst is when you send a sample, they like it, you make a buncha changes, then they want to "start fresh". Makes me want to club baby seals.

[wp34]

I had a couple of professional artist friends help me with my marquee.  One of them has been using design software for 20 years and teaches Adobe CS at the college level.  She knows her stuff.  I watched her take 45 minutes to do something in Illustrator that I assumed in my naivete would take about 5 minutes for an expert. 

Making artwork is more time consuming than people think.

[opt2not]

   Thanks for updating this thread. 

Just to add to this thread, you can be as picky as your wallet allows.
More changes = more time


The absolute worst is when you send a sample, they like it, you make a buncha changes, then they want to "start fresh". Makes me want to club baby seals.

Oh man that's horrible. Luckily I haven't had someone want me to start fresh. And honestly, if someone pulled that one on me, I'd probably double charge them for the first attempt in addition to the fresh-start attempt. Either that, or cancel the commission. Life's too short to deal with people who don't value other people's time.

I had a couple of professional artist friends help me with my marquee.  One of them has been using design software for 20 years and teaches Adobe CS at the college level.  She knows her stuff.  I watched her take 45 minutes to do something in Illustrator that I assumed in my naivete would take about 5 minutes for an expert. 

Making artwork is more time consuming than people think.

Exactly. For the really complex pieces I've done, it has taken me months to complete. Especially the stuff that is from scratch. Fresh custom artwork can take just as long as building the whole project itself!

Shouldn't this be in the vendor sub forum?

Naw, it's fine in the Artwork section. This is an informative thread that needs to be here in the general Artwork forum to stay active and visible to the masses. If thrown in the vendor forum, it wouldn't get nearly as much traffic as it does here.

[Vigo]

I had a couple of professional artist friends help me with my marquee.  One of them has been using design software for 20 years and teaches Adobe CS at the college level.  She knows her stuff.  I watched her take 45 minutes to do something in Illustrator that I assumed in my naivete would take about 5 minutes for an expert. 

Illustrator is a a big one to master. Illustrator is probably one of my weakest programs, but knowing the ins and outs of the pen tool alone has been a bigger personal triumph than most anything else I know in Adobe, and I do know how to use the bulk of the software suite.

[yotsuya]

I had a couple of professional artist friends help me with my marquee.  One of them has been using design software for 20 years and teaches Adobe CS at the college level.  She knows her stuff.  I watched her take 45 minutes to do something in Illustrator that I assumed in my naivete would take about 5 minutes for an expert. 

Illustrator is a a big one to master. Illustrator is probably one of my weakest programs, but knowing the ins and outs of the pen tool alone has been a bigger personal triumph than most anything else I know in Adobe, and I do know how to use the bulk of the software suite.

I'm pretty proficient in Illustrator now, but the only reason I started using it was because of this hobby. Before I couldn't wrap my head around it- now, it's like second nature. I can use it for almost anything, especially in conjunction with Photoshop.

[opt2not]

It's funny, after using Illustrator for so long, I've been trying to avoid it now. Lately I've been forcing myself to stick to Photoshop only, and doing my vector work there. I never relied on Illustrator's auto-trace anyway, and I can get the pretty much the same results for most things. Though there are a few things I dislike about PS's vector support, but for the most part it gets the job done.
Sometimes it's just better to keep to one package, rather than having to deal with smart-layers and jumping back and forth between software, especially if I don't need anything too complicated that PS's vectors can't do.

[Vigo]

Yeah, once it "clicks" Illustrator is pretty darn cool. I was constantly making the mistake of thinking I had to make complex shapes all in one swoop. Taking little chunks at a time and tweaking put so much of the process into perspective.

It's funny, after using Illustrator for so long, I've been trying to avoid it now. Lately I've been forcing myself to stick to Photoshop only, and doing my vector work there. I never relied on Illustrator's auto-trace anyway, and I can get the pretty much the same results for most things. Though there are a few things I dislike about PS's vector support, but for the most part it gets the job done.
Sometimes it's just better to keep to one package, rather than having to deal with smart-layers and jumping back and forth between software, especially if I don't need anything too complicated that PS's vectors can't do.

You sound like my brother. I am more of a "chocolate-out-of-my-peanut butter" person and like to keep em separate. Vector support has gotten way better in PS, and I am probably gonna have to switch if I want to delve into the Photoshop 3d functions.

[Malenko]

Oh man that's horrible. Luckily I haven't had someone want me to start fresh. And honestly, if someone pulled that one on me, I'd probably double charge them for the first attempt in addition to the fresh-start attempt. Either that, or cancel the commission. Life's too short to deal with people who don't value other people's time.

I cancelled that one, but it sucked hours of my life I'll never get back.


As for illustrator and photoshop..... I tend to use photoshop for almost everything. occasionally I'll have to make something in Illustrator, then bring it in as a smart object but thats few and far between. Getting a good digitizer is a god send.

[SNAAKE]

which one of you quit tho?

because lately Ive been getting some emails/inquires lol..maybe because of weather getting better and people trying to finish up their cabinets

[opt2not]

Yeah I've been getting a bunch as well. Must be the weather.

Had to turn a couple boneheads down though. These guys expected a $50 price on a 8 hour (minimum) job... 

[yotsuya]

Yeah I've been getting a bunch as well. Must be the weather.

Had to turn a couple boneheads down though. These guys expected a $50 price on a 8 hour (minimum) job... 

I got $10 cash-in-hand for you to finish that poster for me, brah. 

[opt2not]

Hey I thought we were going to do some metal-work tradin' hmmm?

[yotsuya]

Heh. Just tell me when!

[opt2not]

Wow, just got another one of those emails...

A new member here contacts me for artwork for his cabinet. Full-set, Marquee, Bezel, CP, Side and Kickplate.  Goes on to give me a description of about 60 characters from all his favourite games to be included in the art, and he wants it in a painterly-inked style, similar to the look of the Okami concept art.  Not a terribly hard style to nail, but the sheer volume of character work and composition is enough to make this commission a long one.

So I proceed to giving him my price quote, time estimate it would take me to finish, and a rough start-date I could begin at. Since I've been taking a bit of an art-break for the past little while, I'm obviously not ready to jump right into a massive commission like this right away.
I broke it down to how many hours per character it would take, and an overall timeline for each pass, etc. Pretty detailed overall.

*snip* he starts off by saying this:

"wow why is this really expensive!!? i thought maybe $200 tops but this price is insane and your going to make me wait over 6 months for it to be complete??!?  it sounds like your taking advantage of people that arent "artists" like you."

Yes, I'm taking advantage of people by slaving hours away for a massive art project that I'm charging half of than what a McDonald's employee makes per hour.    And this guy wants me to do this for $200...

"i already spent over $1100 for my project, and i dont understand why your charging me so much for just drawing and painting when building a cabinet from scratch is waaaay more work"

   I can't even gather up the energy to explain to this guy why artwork takes so long, and how much thought and planning is involved. aside from the work involved, paying an artist isn't only "just for the work", you are paying an artist for their skills and experiences that got them there in the first place.
If you didn't budget your project to include the cost of art, then that's on you.

Then he really goes off the deep-end, and the email it gets trollish/hurtful:

"forget it then. your artwork isnt that good anyways. at least not for that price. i think i'm going to just learn photoshop and do this myself because there is no way i spending that amount of money on artwork that isnt even official!! you are a scammer and i'm going to report you to the mods so that other people dont get scammed by you"

Wow. Just wow.  Why is it all the crazies contact me for art?  At this point I'm just thinking he's trolling me on purpose.

So this guy wants all those licensed characters, re-imagined into a style that is also ripped off other artists, and he is expecting official work? What. the. ---fudgesicle---.
Please, go ahead learn photoshop. Please, go ahead and report me to the mods. My artwork may not be the greatest, I sure know what my flaws are and I have been working on trying to get better at my craft. I do my best to put all I can into people's artwork. I do get excited by some ideas that people come to me with, and there are times that I'm not excited about some people's requirements that I usually pass them up because if I'm taking something on, I want it to come out the best I can make it. I put my soul into this work, I get into an obsession of making it look the best I can.

But to put me down by saying my artwork isn't that good, and berate me for giving him a price quote that is well below what I should have charged him for this monstrous amount of work is just....sad. 
I know I should just shake these kind of emails off, perhaps today I'm just feeling some type of way, but this one got to me. I haven't had an email exchange like this in a while, so perhaps my thick skin grew soft. But man...what a complete ---meecrob----bag response.
I'm not going to bother replying to him.

[Malenko]

The only thing I'd ever report you to the mods for is being too awesome.

I do get excited by some ideas that people come to me with

Like Hung Donkey?


That guy doesn't know ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. I'm pretty well versed in photoshop and I still come to you for help when I need it. You've graciously done both easy things and complex work for me with equal enthusiasm and the end results have always been exactly what I wanted.  Your work, even in concept form is typically better than my end results. Don't let a bean bag like that bring you down bro. Next time Im in Canada I'll buy you a Molson or a Labatt Blue or what ever you guys drink up there 

[opt2not]

Thanks for the vote of confidence.
I actually had a bunch of fun making the Hung Donkey marquee.
Just like pbj's Ms.Pacman "assault". Those ones are the fringe art that takes me out of the safe realm and gives a me a chance to do more risqué stuff.
But there are some requests I've got that just sounds cool and in line with my own interests (like harveybirdman's bulletreign), so I get excited about those ones.
At the price and time I offer this art for I can afford to be picky.

For the record, it's been pretty hot up here this summer and I've been drinking more coronas and budweisers more so than any other beers. :p

 

[Vigo]

Hey, send him my way. For $100 I can pump out 60 video game characters in the timeframe he wants.

Of course, this is the style he would be stuck with.



I find it crazy how many people just don't get how involved art is. I'm only an adobe designer, and still I scratch my head at how many people at my office think I must be just selecting from some presets or templates or something. About anytime I make some random bit of art for an office function, IT tells me they get install requests for stuff like "That t-shirt designer that vigo has" or "Vigo's clipart library". Really? like a effin' clipart library is gonna have images custom to our company related to the specific function we are doing?? You think a logo of chef playing poker in Minnesota is a common thing to find pre-made?

My own boss doesn't even get it, and I know that is a big reason why I am paid horse ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. I recently released a new safety campaign for the company and I designed a team of safety mascots, created a series of themed posters around this, started a series of training videos, restructured the program from scratch, the whole 9 yards.

I show my boss all my work, "Hey that program you have is nifty. You can even pick what heads those people can have? I like the background patterns program lets you choose from!" I then try to tell him I designed the backgrounds, characters and everything else from scratch. Drew everything myself, etc...and how many hours it takes to do this kind of work. He just shuts down and doesn't listen. Flash forward 2 weeks later, he writes me up for time management, because I have been clocking in a lot of overtime to get my work done.     Somehow he manages to forget that before I was doing this, we were outsourcing $20,000 a year for a company to paste one picture on the same background once a month.

OK, so I might have turned this into my rant as well. Bottom line -  I hear ya brother!   

[SNAAKE]

why does he want "CUSTOM" drawn artwork then?

his goal his cartoony art then get him some cartoony STOCK art that is already available and charge him to put everything together. send him my way if he wants me to do it. for his budget he can't get "CUSTOM" anything. its that simple.

Ive done entire sets for 100-200 before. even  those "easy" type work is tiring with revisions, changing colors, background, etc 

in case anyone wondering why I even bother. I look at my own personal struggle lol. back in the day when I was making cabinets I must have emailed like 20 people trying to see if I can get someone to do some photoshop work for me. didn't get a single reply then kinda had to learn photoshop. SO I figured there are other people on the same boat on a budget and I will sacrifice my time and energy for a small fee to do some photoshop for them.

[SNAAKE]

"you are a scammer and i'm going to report you to the mods so that other people dont get scammed by you"

what did I just read

[yotsuya]

I hope the cheap bastard moves on to another hobby. Opt2Not is the furthest thing from a scammer.

[Vigo]

I need my entertainment. I'm hoping for one of those "ripoff alert" threads where everyone just ends up telling the OP to STFU.

[SNAAKE]

not to derail thread but I get people like this for xboxes too.

had this kid texting me like 50 times for about a month trying to buy a jtag/rgh xbox. after answering 900 questions, he shows up with his WHOLE FAMILY. buys the slim mw3 xbox360 for $180. calls me 10 min later saying he wants his money back. why?? I DONT KNOW BRO. thats his response. he doesn't know why. then mom butts in and says "we wanna buy something newer like xboxone". then why is your kid wasting all my ---goshdarn--- time and energy? aren't the adults(mom and pop) supposed to step in and at least offer me like $20? nope..dad starts saying "its part of the hussle". no its not..be an adult and clear up your kid's mess and show some respect for the seller's time and skill.

he's lucky he did show up in 10 minutes. if it was next day then I would have been like "I donated your money to the homeless bruh..MY BAD!"

[8BitMonk]

Wow... just, wow. This guy needs to be verbally ---smurfette--- slapped, no clue whatsoever. This is a classic Aesops fables fox and the grapes situation.

[SNAAKE]

haha

[opt2not]

from: http://chirart.tumblr.com/post/125745859669/young-artists-or-any-artist-that-undersells

[UncleArgyle]